NOTLD'90...Ben!

[Debbieangel]

What do you think about this?
When Ben killed the zombie that he had run over when he was driving to the farmhouse,the one that was snapped in half, I noticed something about it. When he killed the zombie blood and gore splashed up in his mouth, I remember him spitting then cussing. Ok, here is my query, Why didn't Ben turn after that happening to him? Did you ever think of that should happen to him?

[sandrock74]

I always assumed it was merely a mistake from the effect and actor placement....but it looked cool, so it was kept.

But, to answer your question in context of the movie, I guess it shows that there is nothing harmful in a zombies blood...whatever kills someone who is bitten, it is located specifially in the zombies mouth. That seems really unlikely, as it would seem only logical for the entire zombie to be a walking contagion.

What we need here is Philly with his awesome red circles and arrows to explain (much better) what I am trying to explain. Where is that masked man?

[JDFP]

Hell, maybe it did infect him?

We witness the life of Ben for what, 10 hours? Roger had a massive bite and it took him days to turn. Ben got a smidgen of blood possibly in his system, if you had given it a few more days it may have turned him too.

That's actually an interesting premise -- the thought of them all escaping that night just for Ben to turn a few days later from killing that ghoul. Talk about uber-sucking. :stunned:

j.p.

[krakenslayer]

Nowhere in any of the original films is it established that there is any kind of blood-borne contagion involved. Although it is suggested, it's not even clearly established that there is a specific contagion (beyond run-of-the-mill fatal septicaemia) passed on via bites.

Even if there is a blood-borne contagion, there is nothing to suggest it would infect a host through simple oral contact. Take HIV, for example: if it gets into your blood stream via a wound or through the genital mucosa, then there is a chance you will become infected, but if you get some infected blood or fluid in your mouth, you can not be infected (unless you have a significant cut inside your mouth).

Things could, theoretically, be different in the remake, but if it's not shown to be the case, why should we assume it is?

[Legion2213]

I don't think it's ever stated that getting zombie juice in your mouth is fatal in any GAR films...thats more of a "28 days later" thing.

Edit: A bit like snake venom, you can suck it out of a wound with no ill effects, yet when directly injected into the body, it will kill you.


.

[Trin]

We see a similar situation when Roger wipes blood from his face. He rubs his bloody hands all around his eyes and mouth and that doesn't seem to harm him.

[krakenslayer]

We see a similar situation when Roger wipes blood from his face. He rubs his bloody hands all around his eyes and mouth and that doesn't seem to harm him.

Yeah, I thought of that too, but it's difficult to use that as proof because he gets bitten so soon after.

I do agree through. I think zombie blood is no worse to have in your mouth than any other piece of rotten, uncooked meat. You might get sick, but I don't think you'll die from it.

[bassman]

We see a similar situation when Roger wipes blood from his face. He rubs his bloody hands all around his eyes and mouth and that doesn't seem to harm him.

Not to mention Logan was constantly covered in their blood and guts...

As someone mentioned before, I don't think it's transferred through the blood. No matter what you die from, you're coming back.

But that also raises the question why did Sarah cut off Miguel's arm if it wasn't contracted through the bite/blood?:rockbrow:

[paranoid101]

Not to mention Logan was constantly covered in their blood and guts...

As someone mentioned before, I don't think it's transferred through the blood. No matter what you die from, you're coming back.

But that also raises the question why did Sarah cut off Miguel's arm if it wasn't contracted through the bite/blood?:rockbrow:

Maybe he was a compulsive wanker and she thought she could kill 2 birds with one stone........I mean Chop.

[krakenslayer]

But that also raises the question why did Sarah cut off Miguel's arm if it wasn't contracted through the bite/blood?:rockbrow:

Well, one thing Romero did raise in his unfinished short story Outpost #5, was that the zombies, especially the less "fresh" ones, have reservoirs of bacteria in their gastrointestinal tract as a result of undigested, unpassed faeces and food rotting in their stomach and guts. This "soup" of bacteria oozes up into their throats, and when they bite someone these bacteria are introduced directly, intravenously into the victim's blood stream, causing instant septicaemia and toxic shock.

I like this idea because it keeps the bite and the resurrection as two separate things, it highlights that it's not "viral" (which I think is a messy and poorly-though-out reason for a zombie apocalypse, popularised by Resident Evil long after the original trilogy) and and it means the zombies don't suddenly acquire some magical power when they resurrect.

Certainly it's not a perfect theory - septicaemia is theoretically treatable with drugs and constant care. However, where are you going to find a manned and fully-stocked intensive care unit in a zombie holocaust?

[Debbieangel]

I knew this topic would get you all theorizing...I too like the thought that a bite or death would make you a zombie.
Thanks for your theories they are all well thought out.

[Yojimbo]

Gnarly topic! Cheers to Debbie!

I am in full agreement with Kraken on this one, particularly his OUTPOST 5 reference in which if I am not mistaken Romero also notes that a victim could be saved if someone would litterally suck out the rancid zombie "venom" from a bite just like they used to recommend for a snake bite.

[JDFP]

I do agree through. I think zombie blood is no worse to have in your mouth than any other piece of rotten, uncooked meat. You might get sick, but I don't think you'll die from it.

Man, Kraken, you just reminded me of my ex-fiancee with this quote above...

:)

j.p.

[Wyldwraith]

---> Agrees with the Outpost #5-related comments.
GAR at least tried to establish there WHY zombie bites are so lethal, and regardless of how many holes that are easy to poke in that premise (such as actual Septicemia which is still localized being easily treated by even a layman with a few timely injections of Penicillin.) I give the man points for the effort.

My pet theory has always been that whatever change occurs in the biochemistry of the reanimated bodies tends to create a MIX of "super germs". Ie: Antibiotic-resistant bacteria in said bodies. The human body at any given moment is carrying thousands of copies of various bacteria and viruses (in insufficient numbers to cause illness), so there's ample microbe-fodder to be altered by the zombie phenomena.

It might have been very interesting had GAR run with the concept that competent (albeit relatively basic) medical treatment could stave off death from exposure via zombie bite. It would have given the events an even more tragic feel, since some survivors who discover this would still find themselves forced to stay on the move, unable to render the medical assistance to a friend or loved one they could otherwise save without dooming the entire group.

As for Ben's oral exposure to the zombie blood, I have yet another theory. Assuming that microbes in the zombie mouth have ANYTHING to do with the lethality of the zombie's bite, one could argue that the zombies in Night had reanimated so recently that they lacked sufficient concentrations of bacteria or viruses in their undead bodies to be very infectious as yet. This argument could be supported by the Coopers' daughter becoming ill and expiring, since the very young, very old, and the immuno-compromised are always the most susceptible to infection of any sort. A healthy adult male's immune system could very well ward off an infection that an injured young girl's could not. After all, we'd need to see a full workup on Ben's blood to know if he'd been exposed to a pathogen his immune system fought off.

Every day each of us are exposed to bacteria and viruses that are quite lethal under the right circumstances, but we never know it due to our immune systems quickly stamping out the few copies of the pathogen that enter our bodies.

It's interesting that GAR seemed to be thinking along the lines of the zombies using the now rotting flesh they'd consumed as both fuel and incubator to create an infectious soup the zombie then used to cause death/create more zombies. It indicates he was looking at the zombies as being akin to rats whose fleas carried bubonic plague. Undeath wasn't directly passed on from infector to infected (Such as vampirism). Instead the lethal bacterial cocktail in the "zombie drool" acted as a mechanism to cause death, thus rendering the fresh corpse fit to become a new zombie that would itself perpetuate the cycle of infection.

It's almost like how some parasites use an intermediary to reach their intended host and complete their life cycle.

Just some thoughts.

[Debbieangel]

I have seen what our bodies can do to us,I used to be a certified nursesaid. Have you ever seen a decubutis ulcer (bedsore)? At first it starts out as a red patch and as the progression/break down of skin goes on untreated it gets a gapping hole its like acid it eats right through to the bone. Then it has necrotic tissue encircling it. Inside still then it gets more gross, it has pus inside it. I have seen this on an old woman that was bedridden.
Anyway, my point is in the large scale of zombies can you imagine after a few days of them being dead what they would look like? I can't see how even touching zombie in that state wouldn't have some kind of ill affect to our own bodies? I think we would all have to walk around with surgical gloves and face masks for the rest of our lives in an zombie acopalypse.

[Wyldwraith]

I have seen what our bodies can do to us,I used to be a certified nursesaid. Have you ever seen a decubutis ulcer (bedsore)? At first it starts out as a red patch and as the progression/break down of skin goes on untreated it gets a gapping hole its like acid it eats right through to the bone. Then it has necrotic tissue encircling it. Inside still then it gets more gross, it has pus inside it. I have seen this on an old woman that was bedridden.
Anyway, my point is in the large scale of zombies can you imagine after a few days of them being dead what they would look like? I can't see how even touching zombie in that state wouldn't have some kind of ill affect to our own bodies? I think we would all have to walk around with surgical gloves and face masks for the rest of our lives in an zombie acopalypse.

For awhile I could see it,
However, constant low-level exposure to necrosis-related pathogens would probably trigger an aggressive buildup of antibodies in survivors that aren't malnourished. One could even make the argument that within a few generations (assuming humanity survived to breed those generations) the great-great-grandchildren of the people who were alive on Day 1 of the Zombie Apocalypse might develop a complete immunity to the pathogens carried by the zombies.

A British research group did a study of Untouchables/Pariahs in India during the late 19th/early 20th century, and compared their general health to that of the higher castes. They found that on average the Untouchables were more prone to vitamin deficiency-related health problems, but that they recovered almost FOUR TIMES as fast from diseases like Cholera, Yellow Fever etc. Their final finding was that due to the Pariah/Untouchables only having access to the lowest quality/most unsanitary wells/water sources over many many generations, the Pariahs had developed an incredible resistance to waterborne pathogens and parasites in comparison to high-Caste Brahmins.

Or look at European immunities versus the devastating effect the diseases they brought to the Americas had on the native populations. Scientists have determined our European ancestors owed their resistances to centuries of close contact with domesticated animals. Native Americans, the Aztecs and Mayans on the other hand had almost no domesticated animals except the llama. The cycle of disease ---> Developed resistance was only possible because the Europeans had been swapping germs back and forth between them and their domesticated animals for generations.

A corollary to this principle was the greatly increased resistances in the succeeding generations of decimated Native American tribes. Smallpox mortality rates dropped SHARPLY amongst Sioux populations between 1830 and 1880.

So there's historical precedent establishing the certainty that any dangerous microbes human populations come into regular contact with will trigger the cycle of high mortality followed by rising levels of resistance/immunity in the surviving fraction of said populations.

No help to any of us soft children of the First World, but the mechanism will preserve our hardier descendants.

Just my .02

[Trin]

Not to mention Logan was constantly covered in their blood and guts...Good call. Logan was assumedly someone who would know the conditions of why a bite is lethal and he wasn't taking any blood precautions at all.


...However, where are you going to find a manned and fully-stocked intensive care unit in a zombie holocaust?
Peter said he'd seen a half dozen people die from bites with no survivors. I think we can assume there was some treatment offered to some of them.

Also, in Land there was just no question. Bite=death. If any of them had witnessed anyone survive it would've been different both for the kid at the beginning and for Cholo. If they could've built resistance they would've by then. It was clear in their minds. No hope.

I still think a viable cause for the bites being lethal is an allergic reaction.

[Wyldwraith]

@Trin:
What kind of allergen has a universal effect on individuals of all ages and ethnicities? Even something as basic as insect bites range between triggering anaphelyptic (sp?) shock and not even raising a welt.

How would a universal allergen work?