Real life is far scarier than anything Hollywood concocts... "Nanking Massacre"

[Neil]

I'd heard of it, but didn't really not any of the details...

How brutal humanity can be, is just about as scary as it can get - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Nanjing_1937_self-organized_burial_team.jpg

[paulannett]

I'll have a read of this when I head home, but I've heard some horrible stories about what Japanese soldiers did to the Chinese.

Hopefully I remember this right, but one story was that a squad of soldiers gave a father two options: 1) Have his daughter gang raped and both of them tortured and brutally murdered or 2) The father can rape his own daughter and both of them would be killed quickly and relatively painless.

Like you said, very scary.

[Neil]

I'll have a read of this when I head home, but I've heard some horrible stories about what Japanese soldiers did to the Chinese.

Hopefully I remember this right, but one story was that a squad of soldiers gave a father two options: 1) Have his daughter gang raped and both of them tortured and brutally murdered or 2) The father can rape his own daughter and both of them would be killed quickly and relatively painless.

Like you said, very scary.

...Yeh, some stuff sort of like that!

Read the article carefully... And remember, this isn't yeh-old times, it's all within living memory!

[AcesandEights]

The rape of Nanking, babies on bayonets...all things that approach being unspeakably horrific...I think initial instances of mass murder and rape committed by the Japanese IA on surrendering civilians ranks right up there with the Chinese Biowarfare experimentation, Un. 731 etc., if not in numbers (bio warfare & experimentation killed something on the order of half a million people in China over the course of the war, iirc) then in sheer barbarity and willful ignorance of the value of human life. And that's not even getting into the massive forced prostitution of women in occupied territories as so-called 'comfort women'.

[bassman]

Holy ****!:barf:

This is the first i've heard of this incident and I really don't want to read too much about it. Absolutely horrible.

[darth los]

When given the opportunity this is how humans have always behaved. We fancy ourselves more civilized than that but this is not biblical times, like the webmaster said, this is all within living memory.

:cool:

[blind2d]

Man...... what can I say? Maybe we're not worth saving after all... I have to go cry now, excuse me...

[JDFP]

As absolutely unforgivable an event as Nanking was, it's absolutely pebbles in the sand compared to the millions of Ukrainians/Russians murdered during the Holodomor and Stalin's work-plans. Twenty million, rough estimate, starved to death or worked to death. Then of course there was that little thing known as the Holocaust as well which managed to do about 25% of the damage of the Holodomor/Stalin's work-plan's but is still much better documented.

... And then comes along one of the greatest mass-murderers of history with Chairman Mao who proved that Chinese were better about murdering their own citizens as opposed to another country (Japan) doing it for them. Mao the murderer single-handedly managed to starve unconclusive millions (well more than the Holocaust murdered) as well as working millions more to death. Stalin and Mao, what a proud tradition of wholesale slaughter and destruction.

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism.

j.p.

[AcesandEights]

Let's pretend this is the Oscars and play overly simplistic political statements off by way of a grand sweep of classically-inspired music.

[mista_mo]

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism.


Yea, okay then.

[darth los]

As absolutely unforgivable an event as Nanking was, it's absolutely pebbles in the sand compared to the millions of Ukrainians/Russians murdered during the Holodomor and Stalin's work-plans. Twenty million, rough estimate, starved to death or worked to death. Then of course there was that little thing known as the Holocaust as well which managed to do about 25% of the damage of the Holodomor/Stalin's work-plan's but is still much better documented.

... And then comes along one of the greatest mass-murderers of history with Chairman Mao who proved that Chinese were better about murdering their own citizens as opposed to another country (Japan) doing it for them. Mao the murderer single-handedly managed to starve unconclusive millions (well more than the Holocaust murdered) as well as working millions more to death. Stalin and Mao, what a proud tradition of wholesale slaughter and destruction.

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism.

j.p.


Then again, no sytem of gov't can get it's power if the people don't allow it. The problem is once it's in place a gov't is nearly impossible to topple.

:cool:

[JDFP]

Then again, no sytem of gov't can get it's power if the people don't allow it. The problem is once it's in place a gov't is nearly impossible to topple.

:cool:

Touche.

:cool:

j.p.

[darth los]

Yea, okay then.

That is dangerous rhetoric indeed considering that al qaeda says the same things about us infedel capitalists.

Evil is in the eye of the beholder. And for the record they think theyy're the good guys. They believe it so much they're willing to die for it which is more than i can say for the fat, lazy, dumb sheep in this country.

:cool:

[JDFP]

Evil is in the eye of the beholder. And for the record they think theyy're the good guys. They believe it so much they're willing to die for it which is more than i can say for the fat, lazy, dumb sheep in this country.

:cool:

Perspective is in the eye of the beholder, evil is evil (then again, I'm a modernist and I think postmodernism is absolute BS). Mass genocide, murder, and ethnic "cleansing"/"purifying" can be said to be a perspective from a society as to whether they consider it to be such things or not, but the carrying out of such activities is evil. Truth is greater than "truths" that are held by individuals and individual societies.

The fact that they (Al Qaeda) are willing to die in murdering people proves their evil and evil intent. If we were to be rolling through the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan just randomly picking people off with a rifle we would, as well, be equally evil. From our perspective we may not consider this as evil, but that doesn't mean that it is not evil just because we do not consider it as so. Truth is greater (objective) than our perspective (subjective) of it.

Again, I don't buy into postmodernism and won't as it's philosophically a weak argument...

j.p.

[BillyRay]

Again, I don't buy into postmodernism and won't as it's philosophically a weak argument...


JP,

Could you explain what you mean by Postmodernism as a political/ethical philosophy?

I'm only familiar with Postmodernism as a design concept in painting/film/architecture. (I doubt you're talking about Robert Longo.)

[darth los]

Perspective is in the eye of the beholder, evil is evil (then again, I'm a modernist and I think postmodernism is absolute BS). Mass genocide, murder, and ethnic "cleansing"/"purifying" can be said to be a perspective from a society as to whether they consider it to be such things or not, but the carrying out of such activities is evil. Truth is greater than "truths" that are held by individuals and individual societies.

The fact that they (Al Qaeda) are willing to die in murdering people proves their evil and evil intent. If we were to be rolling through the streets of Iraq and Afghanistan just randomly picking people off with a rifle we would, as well, be equally evil. From our perspective we may not consider this as evil, but that doesn't mean that it is not evil just because we do not consider it as so. Truth is greater (objective) than our perspective (subjective) of it.

Again, I don't buy into postmodernism and won't as it's philosophically a weak argument...

j.p.


Point Taken.

My point was mor, not even that they think their actions aren't evil but that they are justified because of the cause that they fight for.


Manifest destiny for example was viewed as our right. Yet, although smashing Native American baby Skulls in so they could save bullets is far from righteous it was rationalized because these people were sub human savages who didn't know a good thing when they saw it.

No sane person can say as policy (as per their religion it may have happened on an individual basis) that God wants them to engage in wholesale slaughter. However, that's exactly what jihadists are engaged in.

We have the same thing here, only they are called neo cons and the religious right that engage in wars/murder because they believe they are in the right (no pun intended). So are we all that different?

:cool:

[Russian DeadMan]

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism.



Ahhh... Come on, man! Cut it out. Communism (and any world outlook, religion etc.) has nothing to do with mass murders and human brutality. We are predators and victims in our nature, and when there is no power to control the herd, people just become who they really are: wolves and sheep.;)

[Arcades057]

To get this back on track, Nail, check out the Japanese medical experiments on Chinese civilians and PoWs. The Chinese were referred to in the medical records as "monkeys" in cases.

Chemical and biological weapons were tested on these people and in many cases the experiments are up there with the Nazi experiements.

[paulannett]

I read about this too, though I can't remember the name of the Japanese unit that committed the acts. I don't think it was too long ago (20 years?) that road workers dug up a huge area only to discover a mass grave which led to more and more horrific Japanese secrets to be unvielled.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, i read about this in the book "flags of our fathers". it had lots of horror stories about catching babies with bayonets, rapes, beheadings, etc. pretty brutal stuff.

once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them.

[fulci fan]

The experiments they did are revolting. Live autopsies with no anesthetics, attaching legs where arms go and vise versa, stomachs were removed and the esophogus re attached to the intestines, doctors would impregnate the women and then remove the fetus later in a vivisection, and prisoners had limbs frozen and thawed so the doctors could study the effects of rotting and gangrene. Prisoners were also referred to as "logs" as a joke because the facility was disguised as a lumber mill. Check out a film called "Men Behind the Sun". It is about Unit 731. :barf:

[SRP76]

That's why it's called "war", not "getting together with your fellow man and having lunch". Almost every single one of them revolved around killing the enemy peoples, and using them in any way you see fit (beats experimenting on your own folks).

Bloodless conflict and limited war is a very new idea in the overall history. Like, less than 1% of the total timeframe.

[AcesandEights]

I read about this too, though I can't remember the name of the Japanese unit that committed the acts

Several units HQed under unit 731. We gave some of those fuckers amnesty too, a guarantee to not get brought up on war crime charges, in exchange for their data, similar to some of the German eggheads and Op. paperclip.

[Kaos]

That's why it's called "war", not "getting together with your fellow man and having lunch". Almost every single one of them revolved around killing the enemy peoples, and using them in any way you see fit (beats experimenting on your own folks).

Bloodless conflict and limited war is a very new idea in the overall history. Like, less than 1% of the total timeframe.

There were most certainly war criminals; if it were Americans who perpetrated these crimes they would be war criminals too. All deserving of being hanged to death (hanging being the most generous method of execution in the case of these crimes.) The taint of such actions carry much longer than it used to (ask any German), true. But deservedly so.

[darth los]

yeah, i read about this in the book "flags of our fathers". it had lots of horror stories about catching babies with bayonets, rapes, beheadings, etc. pretty brutal stuff.

once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them.


Dude, nowdays if it's not on you tube or readily available through the i tunes store it's like it didn't happen.


Hey Gar can make a movie out of that. (Wait, he already did. :p )

:cool:

[Purge]

Rent the aforementioned Men Behind The Sun for a history lesson from Netflix (I work for them). One of the most disturbing films you'll ever see.

[krakenslayer]

Rent the aforementioned Men Behind The Sun for a history lesson from Netflix (I work for them). One of the most disturbing films you'll ever see.

This.

You won't make it to the end, but do try. ;)

[Arcades057]

once i got in a debate in philosophy class about the morality of the united states and the use of the big bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki. i brought this incident up as an example of the evils of imperial japan and was amazed that aside from my teacher, none of the others in the room had even heard of this, only about the u.s. dropping the bomb and how it was "evil", or according to the "college-know-it-all-hippies", as eric cartman defines them.

This is so common that it's almost disgusting. The United States is now the Evil Empire who dropped nuclear weapons on the poor defenseless Japanese who were planning on surrendering anyway. Hiroshima was just a city filled with innocent combatants...


Hiroshima had a civilian population of almost 300,000 and was an important military center, containing about 43,000 soldiers.
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/hiroshima.htm

And Nagasaki was filled with orphanages and nuns...

Nagasaki was an industrial center and major port on the western coast of Kyushu.
http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/nagasaki.htm

But, hey, if it makes us look worse than a people who speared babies and slaughtered civilians by the hundreds in the last century, lay it on us.

[krakenslayer]

This is so common that it's almost disgusting. The United States is now the Evil Empire who dropped nuclear weapons on the poor defenseless Japanese who were planning on surrendering anyway. Hiroshima was just a city filled with innocent combatants...

But, hey, if it makes us look worse than a people who speared babies and slaughtered civilians by the hundreds in the last century, lay it on us.

Without getting into the politics of nuking Japan or whatever (which, to be honest, I don't really have strong feelings about one way or the other), the main problem I have with discussing politics on HPotD is peoples' tendency to break things down into extremes like this - blind jingoism or wrist-slitting self-loathing; there is a lot of ground in between those, it's not a binary switch for goodness sakes! Surely people can admit that themselves, their country or their ancestors have done potentially questionable things in the past without it being all self-hatred and misery? Fuck, I've done things I regret and sometimes I wonder if I did the right thing in certain situations, but it's natural, it's not a big deal, I don't hate myself or want to die or any of that shit. Same goes for things at national and historic level.

As much as we like to classify ourselves by nationality, in the end we're just a bunch of individuals who were assigned an allegiance based upon which piece of dirt we happened to fall out of the womb onto - you can't expect others to necessarily hold the same opinions or act the same way as us just because they live in the same country as us. So if someone criticizes the country they live in, they're not criticizing themselves or even you (it's not personal), they're criticising the powers that be.

[blind2d]

All right! So, to get into the moral implications of dropping the first bomb on Japan... well, duh! NO city in Japan at the time was entirely civilians! It's a relatively small island nation, and besides that, they were at "total-fucking-war"! That means that everybody in the country was helping! I think really the most disturbing thing about the two bomb drops is not where they were dropped, but the ultimate effects. Again, kind of a duh for that. If you've seen or read Barefoot Gen, it's actually a pretty good representation of what the people went through. The radiation poisoning of that region was truly nasty. I don't think that before or since there has been such a singular blow in military history to incur such damage, at least with just one weapon. That's the true horror of it right there. To reiterate: yes, no one in the country could be entirely innocent of Japan's actions, though some were against the war. Dropping bombs... well, it worked, but really... maybe it was unnecessary, who can say? I sure as hell wasn't there. I suppose it did save some time, money, and American lives, but really I feel like it was also a kind of cop-out move on our part. We got impatient and since the technology existed, we pressed that button. Kind of asshole behavior, but hey, that's life. I also believe that the majority of people killed were civilians, whether they were factory workers or homemakers or children of soldiers. Anyhow, yeah, war in any country is nasty business. Really, we'd all be much better without it and right now that starts with the military. If all the armies, navies, and air forces of the world could simultaneously disband... well, I think the world would be a much better place. Except for terrorists. They just got to go. Oh hey, and less soldiers means more police and firemen! That's gotta be good, right?

[EvilNed]

Impatient!? Impatient in a war where thousands die everyday? How the HELL can you be impatient in a war?

And that "We'd be better off without the bomb" thing is also interesting. Imagine what the SECOND half of the 20th century would've looked like if people didn't have the bomb. I'd imagine it would look alot more like the first half of the 20th century myself.

[shootemindehead]

Rent the aforementioned Men Behind The Sun for a history lesson from Netflix (I work for them). One of the most disturbing films you'll ever see.

I've been reading this thread and have felt relucant to get involved. However, this needs to be addressed.

'Man Behind the Sun' is no history lesson. It's an exploitation flick, nothing more. There is NO "history" in this movie.

For anyone interested, here's my Amazon review... :D

__________________________________________________ _______________

Propaganda is propaganda, exploitation is exploitation, October 26, 2009

Made with the approval of the Chinese Central Committee, Mou Tun Fei's 1988...er..."classic" is really nothing more than a Chinese propaganda/exploitation flick dressed up as an historical document on Japanese atrocities carried out at the Unit 731 experimental warfare research facility in the Chinese puppet state of Manchuko during WWII.

However, there absolutely nothing on offer here that is of factual substance, other than the fact that Unit 731 existed and was concerned with finding a viable way to use bacterial/chemical warfare as a means to pursue a Japanese victory in the Second World War.

As much of the first hand documentary evidence has long since disappeared, it therefore stands to reason that what really happened at Unit 731 will always remain a matter of conjecture. That it was a place of experimentation and atrocity, is something few will disagree with, but the actual "facts" of Unit 731 will be found in the written word, not in this film and as such people interested in further understanding the facility and the people who were there will have to seek out the few books on the subject that exist.

Mou's film has enjoyed a lot of respect in some quarters and it's truly incredible that quite a few people really think that they are watching some sort of factual account, even though the frankly absurd torture on screen is evidence of a horror/exploitation angle rather than an historical document. The utter pointlessness of the "experiments" presented should have been a clue to everyone that what they were looking at was more akin to `Ilsa: She Wolf of the SS' or `Love Camp 7', than something of more historical worth. The notorious frostbite experiments are indicative of this. In that scene a woman is left in the extreme cold so her arms become badly frostbitten and then she is brought inside the facility and told to dip her arms in heated water. When she withdraws them, the "Japanese" researcher then strips the flesh from her bones leaving her with two skeletal arms. This famous and shocking scene is great for exploitation cinema lovers (of which I am one), but is absolutely useless as a document on real frostbite tests. This "experiment" in `Man Behind the Sun' would serve absolutely no scientific purpose whatsoever. Another frostbite test has a man's arms frozen and then his fingers are smashed with a hammer, again in an utterly pointless (but highly shocking) "experiment" scene. Other pointlessness includes a live vivisection on a young boy and throwing a cat to starving rats. The former has been touted by the director as a real vivisection (which clearly it's not & I believe Mou has dropped that particular hype) and the latter has been said to have been a real cat attacked and eaten by real rats. While the animals are real, there has been some dispute to whether the scene has been faked. Either way, it actually remains the most disturbing scene in the movie. But again, while this serves the purpose of a horror/gore movie, it does nothing else. In fact, such silliness subtracts from the film's supposed stated goal, a document on Unit 731.

By the way, the rats themselves were later really set on fire for one of the movies final scenes in a truly appalling and un-necessarily cruel stunt.

The opening tag line of the film. "Friendship is friendship. History is history." suggests a more serious execution of a serious matter. But, the end product fails miserably in that respect. Even the actual nature of the film (exploitation cinema) fails ultimately, because the film is just not gritty or gory enough. There are also long, long periods of boredom sprinkled throughout and the characters never once match up to real people. The overdubbed (Asian) soundtrack is bothersome as well, mainly due to its cheap nature and the print quality is rubbish.

`Man Behind the Sun' certainly is an interesting film in parts, but not for the reasons espoused by its makers. It does have some inventive atrocity (for those who wish to seek out such material) and well done special effects. But, as a factual document, it's worthless.
__________________________________________________ _______________

[blind2d]

It's "Men".

[Arcades057]

Impatient!? Impatient in a war where thousands die everyday? How the HELL can you be impatient in a war?
And that "We'd be better off without the bomb" thing is also interesting. Imagine what the SECOND half of the 20th century would've looked like if people didn't have the bomb. I'd imagine it would look alot more like the first half of the 20th century myself.

It's America. He phrased it nicely and said "impatient." The real answer is that we're afraid of blood now, we were afraid of blood then, and we'll only get worse the longer time goes on.

[shootemindehead]

It's "Men".

Depends. I've seen it listed as "Men" and "Man". The copy I had was titled 'Man behind the Sun'.

In fact, the original Chinese title is 'Black Sun: 731'.

[Wooley]

I don't feel sorry for the Japanese. They earned their 2 nuclear bombs, and the hundreds of tons of high explosives, magnesium, white phosphorus and napalm incendiaries we dumped on them with the butchery of 731, the Rape of Nanking, the forced prostitution, the enslavement, torture and in many cases executions of civilian and military prisoners. I think the butt hurt that goes on from our bombing of Japan is much like the butt hurt over the RAF/USAAF incendiary attacks on Dresden. The whining of self loathing fools and the losers who awoke the dragon and filled it with a terrible resolve.

". assume that the view under consideration is something like this: no doubt in the past we were justified in attacking German cities. But to do so was always repugnant and now that the Germans are beaten anyway we can properly abstain from proceeding with these attacks. This is a doctrine to which I could never subscribe. Attacks on cities like any other act of war are intolerable unless they are strategically justified. But they are strategically justified in so far as they tend to shorten the war and preserve the lives of Allied soldiers. To my mind we have absolutely no right to give them up unless it is certain that they will not have this effect. I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier. The feeling, such as there is, over Dresden, could be easily explained by any psychiatrist. It is connected with German bands and Dresden shepherdesses. Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of these things."
-RAF bomber command Gen. Arthur Harris.

I don't think Gen. Curtis Lemay, who was in charge of the US bombing of Japan would have said things much differently about Tokyo, or Kobe, or Kyoto, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki, or any other Japanese city the US lit on fire.

[Neil]

I don't feel sorry for the Japanese. They earned their 2 nuclear bombs, and the hundreds of tons of high explosives, magnesium, white phosphorus and napalm incendiaries we dumped on them with the butchery of 731, the Rape of Nanking, the forced prostitution, the enslavement, torture and in many cases executions of civilian and military prisoners. I think the butt hurt that goes on from our bombing of Japan is much like the butt hurt over the RAF/USAAF incendiary attacks on Dresden. The whining of self loathing fools and the losers who awoke the dragon and filled it with a terrible resolve.

". assume that the view under consideration is something like this: no doubt in the past we were justified in attacking German cities. But to do so was always repugnant and now that the Germans are beaten anyway we can properly abstain from proceeding with these attacks. This is a doctrine to which I could never subscribe. Attacks on cities like any other act of war are intolerable unless they are strategically justified. But they are strategically justified in so far as they tend to shorten the war and preserve the lives of Allied soldiers. To my mind we have absolutely no right to give them up unless it is certain that they will not have this effect. I do not personally regard the whole of the remaining cities of Germany as worth the bones of one British Grenadier. The feeling, such as there is, over Dresden, could be easily explained by any psychiatrist. It is connected with German bands and Dresden shepherdesses. Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, an intact government centre, and a key transportation point to the East. It is now none of these things."
-RAF bomber command Gen. Arthur Harris.

I don't think Gen. Curtis Lemay, who was in charge of the US bombing of Japan would have said things much differently about Tokyo, or Kobe, or Kyoto, or Hiroshima, or Nagasaki, or any other Japanese city the US lit on fire.

I feel sorry such a society, culture and outlook on other human beings existed. I feel sorry it took a war, millions of deaths, and two nuclear weapons killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, and condemning countless others to slow painful deaths from radiation sickness, to topple it.

But I feel the price, although terrifying, was worth it.

[childofgilead]

In 11th grade speech class, we were given a homework assignment to come up with a 5 to 7 minute long topic for discussion.

As we were a fairly small class (filled with media geeks, and misanthropes), the topics were all fairly serious, almost like it was an outspoken duty to out do one another. There were three different speeches about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, one about the Japanese internment in the second world war, one about that daft fluff whose last name is Spears (it was 1999 *shudder*)

I honestly didn't care much for the class, it was just part of college preparation and the only way to land on the morning school news, which I wanted to do, so I signed up. So, after failing to do any proper research, I just picked up a copy of Time magazine, and found something I thought would be interesting and went with it.

I read the story and was more than a little shocked.

It was about the Rape of Nanking.

So imagine how nervous I was that Thursday morning (yes I remember the day, I was freaking) when it was my turn. *for the record, I was third to last, Brit Brit chick was next and then one of the three A-Bomb dudes was last*.

I basically just got up there with notecards and scans of the pictures I could scrounge from the internet. (again, '99, so dial up and crappy printers were the norm)

To make a long and uninteresting story a little shorter, I didn't get to finish my presentation, because the teacher considered it too "disturbing".

I still find that interesting.

[Neil]

Sounds like Christian Bale is in a movie (The Flowers of War) based on these horrible events...

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Christian-Bale-Chinese-Epic-Retitled-The-Flowers-of-War-26698.html

[SymphonicX]

As absolutely unforgivable an event as Nanking was, it's absolutely pebbles in the sand compared to the millions of Ukrainians/Russians murdered during the Holodomor and Stalin's work-plans. Twenty million, rough estimate, starved to death or worked to death. Then of course there was that little thing known as the Holocaust as well which managed to do about 25% of the damage of the Holodomor/Stalin's work-plan's but is still much better documented.

... And then comes along one of the greatest mass-murderers of history with Chairman Mao who proved that Chinese were better about murdering their own citizens as opposed to another country (Japan) doing it for them. Mao the murderer single-handedly managed to starve unconclusive millions (well more than the Holocaust murdered) as well as working millions more to death. Stalin and Mao, what a proud tradition of wholesale slaughter and destruction.

It just goes to prove the disgust and filth present within the greatest evil the world has ever known: Communism.

j.p.

Wasn't that thing with Stalin all a red herring...someone asked him how many deaths due to work and he raised both his hands as if to say "i dunno" but they took that as ten million....or something like that?

[Tricky]

On the subject of war crimes, I visited the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam at the weekend, its a very moving place and a symbol of the persecution of the Jews during World War 2. I cant post any photos as cameras are banned in there, but as soon as you walk in you feel the history of it and even a grown man like me could feel my eyes stinging a bit. I cant even imagine how it feels to visit one of the concentration camps, very upsetting I expect.

[Mike70]

On the subject of war crimes, I visited the Anne Frank house in Amsterdam at the weekend, its a very moving place and a symbol of the persecution of the Jews during World War 2. I cant post any photos as cameras are banned in there, but as soon as you walk in you feel the history of it and even a grown man like me could feel my eyes stinging a bit. I cant even imagine how it feels to visit one of the concentration camps, very upsetting I expect.

and it never ceases to amaze me that there are holocaust "deniers" out there. truly mind boggling.

[rongravy]

and it never ceases to amaze me that there are holocaust "deniers" out there. truly mind boggling.
I've never understood the hate for Jews like I see it around the net. I think alot of them deny it only to be dicks.


As far as this subject: horrible stuff, like the bayonet in the vagina crap. Both sides admitted to atrocities and people do crazy stuff in war. Sad. Had learned stuff on it elsewhere before, was something to reread to be sure...

[Danny]

I've never understood the hate for Jews like I see it around the net. I think alot of them deny it only to be dicks.


Im older and wiser now than when i first gained internet access in my early teens and if theres one thing ive learned its this: There is no bouncer to stop you at the door and maintain a quality control on the internet like normal social niceties out in public. There is less recompense for ones actions and as we all see on every website every day you can give a man free reign to say what he thinks and you see the best and the worst of him. For some its no different, if you are honest with yourself- but then sometimes thats exactly the problem. Some people are only honest online. Where they can spam their hate, prejudice and bile 'just because'. At the end of the day for us to be free to say what we want so must they. We can ignore it but that doesnt stop like minded circle jerks forming and in the grandest scheme of things its just more apes on this tiny blue speck hating other apes that are very slightly different. And man is an ignorant creature that equates strangeness with something to be hated. The internet is just the new get out of jail free podium to spout venomous bile about other races on.

[shootemindehead]

And please god, it'll stay like that.

The day that censorship is brought into internet access, or content will be a very sad day indeed.

[childofgilead]

http://youtu.be/YoW2WYdOsvg

[Sammich]

and it never ceases to amaze me that there are holocaust "deniers" out there. truly mind boggling.

On the other side of the coin are those that exploit the holocaust and have turned it into an industry of moneymaking and political influence.

I highly recommend viewing a documentary called "Defamation" by Yoav Shamir.

[Danny]

And please god, it'll stay like that.

The day that censorship is brought into internet access, or content will be a very sad day indeed.

true. some people forget that when you take the bad with the good the goods still there to focus on. and a free uncensored internet is a very good thing that the world needs now more than ever.