America On Its Own

[SRP76]

Here's a thread for armchair philosophers and historians with an imagination to take part in.

In this thread, rewrite some history.

Here's the situation:

Europeans never colonized the Americas. Real simple. The native Americans were never overrun, had "their land stolen", and all that. They were left alone for the past 500 years.

Now, what do you think the Americas would be like today? What types of states would exist? What technologies would have been implemented?

Use your imagination.

[krakenslayer]

So, I'm assuming we're to imagine that Europe are allowed contact with them (which would, of course, be inevitable), but just never colonised it, right?

I'd imagine a state similar in some ways to India, probably with a little less poverty than India (thanks to oil wealth, etc.). I say this because India is one of the only states to have many, many cultures and religions residing side-by-side within it, which are not solely the result of immigration, and with North American Indians obviously their philosophies and religious varied from culture to culture, and tribe to tribe too.

Unlike India, I think there would be a fairly low population density, since Native American cultures seemed to like to spread themselves out, and their larger cities would have grown "naturally" from smaller, existing settlements (in a similar way to those in Eurasia) as opposed to being planned developments, as the large cities mostly were in the USA.

I don't imagine North America would be anywhere near as major a power on the world stage as it is today. The Europeans that emigrated there took with them expert knowledge of business and statesmanship which the natives lacked (at least, in the way we would understand it, they were/are probably expert negotiators in tribal matters, but the style would probably not translate to the world stage).

I'd hazard that North America would only now be starting to become a noticeable world power, in a similar way to China, India and Brazil are today. I don't mean that to denigrate the native Americans in any way, but it is difficult for non-white, non-European-type powers to "break through" in international affairs, due to the different styles of politics they usually have.

[SRP76]

So, I'm assuming we're to imagine that Europe are allowed contact with them (which would, of course, be inevitable), but just never colonised it, right?



Yes. Contact would be inevitable either way. Even if Europeans never "discovered" the Americas existed, it's only a matter of time before the Americans discover them.

Just assume the early explorers just said "hey, we're Europeans, we're staying on the other side of this ocean. Get in touch with us if you need to talk", then left.

[krakenslayer]

Yes. Contact would be inevitable either way. Even if Europeans never "discovered" the Americas existed, it's only a matter of time before the Americans discover them.

Just assume the early explorers just said "hey, we're Europeans, we're staying on the other side of this ocean. Get in touch with us if you need to talk", then left.

Oh cool, thought so. In that case, see above.

Interesting thread, by the way, SRP. :thumbsup:

[Tricky]

I imagine something like Afghanistan I think, very little development or solid form of government or rule of law, and it would probably be divided into countries more akin to Europe than the modern day states i.e. seperate borders & no common languages.
Chances are there would be a hell of a lot more native wildlife i.e. the herds of buffalo etc, smaller settlements as opposed to the huge urban sprawl of the modern cities & a history you could trace back further than a few hundred years. I dont think the people would have been left behind with technology, but they maybe wouldnt have felt the need to develop technology that we did in Europe & so would probably be quite different.
Did anyone see that photo in the papers last year when some tribe were trying to shoot arrows at a helicopter as they had never seen one before?
http://s56790.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/unsorted/_news_2008_05_images_080530-uncontacted-tribes-photo_big.jpg

Maybe if left alone & not introduced to European ideas they would all still be like that?

[krakenslayer]

http://s56790.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/unsorted/_news_2008_05_images_080530-uncontacted-tribes-photo_big.jpg


Two blokes take a brief break from fighting over the sassy biatch in the back there to hurl verbal and physical abuse at a passer-by. It's heartening to note that, even in the deepest, darkest recesses of the jungle, there's nothing worse than Glasgow on a Saturday night. :lol:

[SRP76]

I don't think the natives would be anywhere near helicopter-arrowing stone-agers.

These "alternate" Americans wouldn't have been utterly sealed off from the world in a small reserve either by force or choice, like some small "throwbacks" in today's world might be. They would be free to roam, and their populations would grow. As such, they would come in contact with other tribes. Who in turn know other tribes. And so on.

All this contact would lead to communication, and the desire to communicate faster and over longer distances. Just like the "European-Americans", they'd have the same necessities, which would be the "mother" of the same inventions. Faster, easier travel, long-distance communication (telegraph/telephone), things of that nature.

The one thing holding them back would be that many tribes simply wouldn't get along. Together, they've got all the resources in these two continents to have the world by the balls. But they'd live divided, squabbling and warring amongst themselves in many small states (like Kraken suggested). This would prevent any real modern power from developing.

I figure something like the middle east and the mess that is. There's technology, there's skills, there's potential, but can't properly use these things. Too many different cultures, with no single one of them having all the tools.

[Danny]

if we hadnt taken the land from the east i could imagine someone from the west would have instead, probably more likely china than japan, given there isolationist nature in the period.

[Tricky]

if we hadnt taken the land from the east i could imagine someone from the west would have instead, probably more likely china than japan, given there isolationist nature in the period.

Indeed, it may be delayed but here it comes (going off subject slightly)...


China National Offshore Oil Corporation (CNOOC) is paying $3.1bn (£2bn) for a 50% stake in Argentine oil and gas group Bridas Corporation. CNOOC president Yang Hua said Bridas was "a very good beachhead for us to enter Latin America".
Bridas has proven oil reserves of 636 million barrels, with production activities across Argentina, Bolivia and Chile.
CNOOC, China's biggest offshore oil explorer, hopes to complete its purchase of a 50% stake in Bridas by the middle of this year.

[SRP76]

Interesting about eastern colonization. Japan would have had nothing to do with anything until 1900, we know that much. They did that by choice.

I'll admit a lack of knowledge of Chinese maritime history, though. As in, did China ever actually seek out new places and start colonizing overseas? If so, when did their interest begin? They obviously are "global" now, but were they active before the modern age? Specifically, did they seek out (important; just lying there and being contacted by other powers doesn't count) overseas contact and expansion before World War II? If not, there's a problem.

World War II plays out MUCH differently without the United States, whether anyone likes that or not. Even moreso in the Pacific than in Europe. China may have been utterly subjected by Japan. So the Japanese would have had a crack at first colonization, but it wouldn't be until the 1900s. Could the natives by this point have defended themselves? Hmmm...

I do think Russia may have taken a crack through Alaska before either China or Japan, but I always think of them as a European power, for no real reason.

[rongravy]

Let's see...
Ok, so Europe didn't colonize their shizz. However, they still had a penchant for overdoing it on the firewater. This made it easy to get them to do all the hard work and mine gold and gather other precious stuffs to trade for it. Their constitution takes a plunge. This, coupled with practically no immunity to Whitey's diseases, takes its toll on the population.
Then, one night, one of their agents manages to steal the formula for some kickass brew. Somewhere seemingly safe, they build their own giant contraption and begin to take care of business. No one notices a fireball streaking down towards them from the sky. By the time it has reached the giant vat of joy juice, it has already shrunk to the size of a pea.
Plunk.
But that's just enough to poison the whole city of inhabitants itching to drink away the sorrows of what has befallen. Within a short time the dead begin to rise to feed upon those who didn't join in the celebration. Eventually, from North to South America, it is a completely uninhabitable, inhospitable place.
The undead rule here now. And they are royally pissed off. They've also evolved some, due to nearly several hundred years of isolation since the incident and the mysterious nature of the pea-teorite...
The animals, as well, have changed for the worse.
It was made forbidden to cross over to that side of the world, and the belief that the world was flat was once again pounded into our skulls.
Fast forward to now. Because we never moved a bunch of people to another land, it has gotten insanely crowded in the "known world". The droves that would've died on their way to the New World, or fighting over pieces of it when they got there, stayed home and continued to breed with wanton abandon. Resources, space, and sanity are pushed to their limit. The heads of countries decide to reveal the truth about the other side of the planet and the evil lurking there. We begin to send troops there to make an attempt to slaughter the undead, and take what we need.
This plan fails, as a soldier manages to sneak back an ancient bottle of the brew from his tour of duty. He drinks it the night he comes back with his buddies.
Eventually the world is lost. It wouldn't have mattered anyway because some creatures were already beginning to evolve into more mobile, winged things. The cold that kept them from crossing land to get to Russia would've no longer been a problem. Doomed from the start...
They should be thanking us for coming, at least a five dollar coupon at the local casinos as a thanks. Geez.

[Danny]

WUT

what is this i dont even.

[EvilNed]

Most likely there would not have been a WW1 or WW2 as we know them. Infact, I'd imagine the first "global war" would've been fought in America.

Let's assume the English, French, Portugese and Spaniards didn't colonize the Americas in the 15th or 16th century but had contact with them.

American tribes, influenced by European way of thinking, would most likely had formed smaller states by the time of the 18th century. Towards the later half of the 18th century, and up towards the early 20th century, however (and during the second Colonization period) European powers would've started grabbing land in America. It would've played out like an alternate Scramble for Africa, except with Russia in the picture as well.

I'd imagine the major powers would've been England, Russia, France and Germany, and the playing field would've been both South and North America. More and more countries would eventually get involved as valuable resources were discovered and by the mid-19th century and forwards I imagine America would've been the arena for several rather devastating wars between European colonial powers.

With Russia a major player in the colonial area of America (and probably being quite succesfull as well, given Tsarist historic interest in that area) the Russian Revolution would probably never had taken place. The Tsar would've been able to keep his populace happy with riches and loot, as well as what they'd view as exotic colonies (I imagine quite a few Russians signing up to see the "Far Eastern Islands"). So thus, not even the Soviet Union would've existed.

England would probably have been more active in America, rather than in Africa, and that would've resulted in a North American continent split between the Russians in the east and English in the west, and an African continent split between the French in the North West and South and Germans in the Central Area, as well as the Italians across the mediteranean area.

Had Napoleon popped up, he might never have marched on Moscow, seeing as Russia might have shifted more of it's powerbase and interests towards the East. They might even have signed up a stronger alliance with Napoleon once he started kicking the shit out of people, seeing as he'd be the main rival of THEIR main rival (the English in America). That "Enemy of my Enemy" mentality could have changed history.

I imagine the theather for the world wars would mostly have been America and Africa with France and Russia on one side and England and Germany on the other.

[general tbag]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

Check it out. very good book worth the read if your into human history, sociology, etc.

Im pretty sure this question is discussed in the book.