If you were in the film knowing all you know...

[JDFP]

You know, I don't think that I'm the only one here that has always wondered what it would be like to be transported by magic, L. Ron Hubbard, or some type of hellish nightmare into one of Romero's films knowing everything we know now about the film and about what would happen.

So, I ask, what would you do if you found yourself transplanted at some point into the film knowing everything you know? Seriously, as opposed to comically, here? (even though I know this thread will eventually degenerate into silliness eventually).

You are on the other side of the door as Barbara bursts into the farmhouse...

You hear the glass shatter above you as Roger/Peter/Fran/Stephen descend into the room where you are sitting above the mall...

You open the door and walk into the meeting hall as Rhodes is giving his: "This isn't a field trip people!" speech and they all stop to stare at you...

If you were somehow transported into one of these films knowing all you know now, what would you do? Would you try to change the fate of the characters? Would you align yourself with certain people? Would you just say: "Oh hell no, screw this!" and run away ("It's just a bunny rabbit!").

What would you do?

j.p.

[fulci fan]

I think about this every time I watch a movie. I wish I could have been in the air duct when Stephen gets shot to tell him not to go back down. Maybe I would come in before they get the idea about the trucks so I could save Roger. I would have also wanted to come in to tell the characters in Zombi 2 to head back to the boat instead of checking on Menard's wife, Paola. And then I would tell them that new york wouldn't be the place to go :)

I probably would try to convince the good guys in Day not to go back to the bunker and just find some other place right in the beginning.

In Night, I would pump the damn gas myself. :annoyed:

[sandrock74]

hmmmmm.

In Night: I would go upstairs while destroying the steps behind me. Of course, I would offer that anyone who wanted to join me was welcome to.

In Dawn...not sure really. I guess make sure that Stephen, Roger and Peter all have walkie-talkies to communicate with when they go on the ill fated truck run. I'd also insist the doors to the mall shops stay locked at night and cut the power when the bikers showed up. No sense in making things easy for them...let them fumble in the dark with locked stores and zombies.

In Day: The logical thing to do would have been to destroy all the zombies in the pen. No sense on keeping them in the complex (Rhodes was right about that at least). Then just hunker down in the complex and relax.
Things were already so bad right out of the gate in this film that no single person was going to do anything to make a difference.

In Land: I'd have been with Riley & crew and sailed away in the Dead Reckoning. Who the hell wants to be in the Green anymore once the zombies have free access to it??

In Diary: I would kick the living hell out of the stupid camera obsessed kid (on camera!) and then promptly busted it over his mellon! Case closed.

[wayzim]

You know, I don't think that I'm the only one here that has always wondered what it would be like to be transported by magic, L. Ron Hubbard, or some type of hellish nightmare into one of Romero's films knowing everything we know now about the film and about what would happen.

So, I ask, what would you do if you found yourself transplanted at some point into the film knowing everything you know? Seriously, as opposed to comically, here? (even though I know this thread will eventually degenerate into silliness eventually).

You are on the other side of the door as Barbara bursts into the farmhouse...

You hear the glass shatter above you as Roger/Peter/Fran/Stephen descend into the room where you are sitting above the mall...

You open the door and walk into the meeting hall as Rhodes is giving his: "This isn't a field trip people!" speech and they all stop to stare at you...

If you were somehow transported into one of these films knowing all you know now, what would you do? Would you try to change the fate of the characters? Would you align yourself with certain people? Would you just say: "Oh hell no, screw this!" and run away ("It's just a bunny rabbit!").

What would you do?

j.p.

This is funny because I used to have movie dreams ( and literal Nuclear Nightmares. It was the seventies, after all. ) as a kid, and NOTLD was one of them. In my imaginings( as was noted in another post ) I definitely headed for the second floor. Eventually we were on the roof, waiting out the siege until Dawn when we could better see what was going on. Spotting a break we lowered ourselves down with torn bedsheets and got the Bleep outta there.
Never did revisit that scenario, so I don't know if our crew survived beyond that.

Wayne Z
'This ain't no midnight Horror flick, or Creature Double Feature, babe. "

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
In Night I probably would've taken a page from the book of the remake-Barbara and *get the hell out* before the zombie concentration gets thick enough to become a serious threat. LONG before they decided to, I'd make a beeline for the gas pump key in the basement, then go on a gas run LONG before it got dark. Case closed on the farmhouse, outta there.

From there it would just be a matter of doing my best at zombie avoidance while I did my best to acquire necessary supplies and get the hell off the mainland to a nice island somewhere.

In Dawn, wow, SO MUCH to fix here. Would do all the things previously suggested, plus I would've made a stand from the roof with rifles to thin the bikers numbers. Since I know exactly how many of them there are, and on what timetable they'll do what exactly, me and the boys will kill them all in ambush after ambush without sustaining any casualties.

Day, I agree. There's not much you can do here to improve things except put a bullet in Miguel's head if you arrive after his infection, or/plus a bullet in Rhodes's head if I arrived before Miguel's infection. Would've insisted on the chopper being gassed up immediately, regardless of how agitated the zombies are. Key theme here is taking steps to make evacuation more viable, and go for it earlier.

Land: Do whatever is necessary to convince whoever I need to that the river is NOT a barricade, and get it walled off from the green. Likewise that all of the outer perimeter be examined and reinforced where necessary. Oh, and since it seems to be so easy, steal Dead Reckoning and blow Kauffman and his rich buddies straight to hell. Ditto for Big Daddy.

The overarching theme is that I would consider myself ethically bound to intervene because I have critical info that can save many lives. Not intervening would be the same as torturing and murdering those people myself. If they won't listen or play ball, then that's another matter entirely. If, when provided with the lifesaving info, the characters choose to disregard the information I'm offering, then to hell with them/they deserve to be eaten.

How do others feel about the ethical question I raise? Do you feel that knowing their future obligates you to attempt to change it for the better, or is that a no-no because its "playing God" in your opinion?

[Legion2213]

How do others feel about the ethical question I raise? Do you feel that knowing their future obligates you to attempt to change it for the better, or is that a no-no because its "playing God" in your opinion?

If you are cast into said situation with prior knowledge, you aren't really "playing God", you just doing the natural thing to make sure that you live.

[hadrian0117]

Were the zombies in the pen really that much of a threat? Sure collecting specimens (or actually entering the pen) was pretty dangerous, but IRC no zombies actually managed to escape from the pen. The ones who overan the base all came from outside the fence. Plus wasn't implied that there was some kind of passage to the outside that nobody knew about that zombies were getting in through. Sure being anywhere near the pen must've sounded creepy as hell, but would it be worth the risk to send a team in to exterminate them?

[Wyldwraith]

If you are cast into said situation with prior knowledge, you aren't really "playing God", you just doing the natural thing to make sure that you live.

Not necessarily,
For instance, if you enter into the situations depicted in the movies with complete prior knowledge, and are at the beginning of those situation(s), the argument could be made in many cases that you could act to save yourself without helping the cast of the movie easily enough. In Night, just don't allow yourself to get penned in the farmhouse with them. Dawn, find somewhere else to hole up, or roll in to the mall, wait for them to clear it, grab what you need, THEN go elsewhere. Same goes for Day, and Land is just too complicated to get into atm.

My basic point is that doing what is in your best interests doesn't necessarily mean doing what's best in the case of the movie characters.

What do you think?

[DjfunkmasterG]

Now we all just need the magic movie ticket from Last Action Hero.


I would go back to Land and shoot Big Daddy in the head, the rest of the zombies didn't seem to smart, problem solved.

DAWN - Warn roger to not forget his bag in the other truck.

DAY - Stole the helicopter and left the rest to rot.

NIGHT - Everything everyone else said.

DIARY - God who knows... totally different perspective

SURVIVAL - Shoot everyone and run the credits in 3 minutes.

[JDFP]

But in "DAY" how can your personal interests not impact the characters in some fashion/way? You're stuck in the compound with them. You can't exactly run away from the characters or situation (Where are you going to go, captain? Do you really think you can blow the piss out of them, all of them?)

For one, I doubt any of us here know how to fly a helicopter. Even if you do, good luck attempting to get out of the compound with the keys for the chopper and flying off. Are you going to open the gate and try to run through them? Yeah, good luck with that. Besides, you're on an island. You going to somehow swim to the mainland? If you're in "DAY", you're pretty much stuck with the characters and their situations there. The only way of NOT getting involved with them or the situation with them would be to go find yourself a secluded camper somewhere and try to hide from everyone. Doing this will probably end up in your death though when the ghouls break into the compound.

In the situation of "DAY", your best interests of surviving is to somehow become involved with the characters in some way and try to change events or manipulate events into such a way with them to attempt to survive, otherwise you're pretty much going to die.

j.p.

[Trin]

Besides, you're on an island. You going to somehow swim to the mainland?
I don't think Day was set on an island. The place was home to commerical storage of RVs. How many island people need to store an RV? And if it were on an island, why were they looking to go "find an island and start making babies."?

The Day question is great. What would I do? Hmmm...

First, I'd get with Sarah, Logan, and Fischer and start going over their research. I'd find out if they have more info to answer the whole bite/infection question, and the radiation question. I'd learn everything I could about their basic research - mostly just to answer the imponderables from around here.

The next question becomes - try to avert the events that led to the demise of the situation? Or be a specatator to those events and try to be on the choppper as it flies off at the end?

If you try to avert events you'd need to keep the military from finding out about Logan's experiments. That was the catalyst that began the end. So what? Do you dispose of the bodies and destroy the evidence of Cooper's body being used? And what if the military catches you doing that? Do you end bieng shot in the meat locker instead of Logan? Or blown away like Fischer? It's risky.

If you try to ride it out until the inevitable end, what then? Do you lay low around the zombie pen until you see John go in? If you did that would they let you on the helicopter since you just conveniently showed up after all the danger?

What if you tried to get involved sooner? Say, catch Miguel on the way to the elevator and detain him?

As soon as you get involved everything is up in the air. It could end with everyone living, everyone dying, ... who knows.

[hadrian0117]

...If you try to avert events you'd need to keep the military from finding out about Logan's experiments. That was the catalyst that began the end. So what? Do you dispose of the bodies and destroy the evidence of Cooper's body being used? And what if the military catches you doing that? Do you end bieng shot in the meat locker instead of Logan? Or blown away like Fischer? It's risky...

Tell Rhodes about Logan's experiments immediately. Logan wouldn't be all that useful anyway; let Rhodes shoot him.

[SRP76]

In Day, I'd kill Miguel on sight. That's a must-do. That alone will solve a bunch of problems. Plus, it would just plain feel good.

Same deal with Night. Eliminate Cooper the second he pops his hedgehog ass out of the celllar. The guy did nothing but work against everyone the whole time; you don't need someone like that around.

For Dawn, there isn't a lot you can do. Maybe try to massacre the bikers before they can reach the mall, since you know when they're coming and from where. It would be risky, though.

Land and Diary, I'd just give up and take my magic ticket to a better movie.

[clanglee]

It's difficult to say really because as soon as you are introduced as a new character to the film, it changes the entire dynamic and maybe a whole lot of the future plot. I mean it's great saying that I would stop Steven from going back into the elevator for the walkie talkie, but because I am there, events may not have even led to that occurence. Maybe I ended up in the elevator instead. Or Steven never even started shooting because I was there with him. Or maybe because He "tripped" over a bag I left near the helicoptor, he fell to his death off the roof. Who knows? It changes the game.

[Legion2213]

Regarding Day, I'd tell the scientists to stop pissing around trying to find a cure that doesn't exist and that couldn't be implemented even if it did.

They'd have to learn other skills to contribute to the survival of the group.

Rhodes and Miguel would have to be murdered, they are both way too much trouble to have around. Steel would be taken under my wing and told to get his head straight and to whip everybody else into shape. I think he would be one of the more useful folks to have around if steered in the right direction.

[BillyRay]

Well, in Day, John mentions that the bunker is storing "de nega-tives to all of your fav-orite moo-vees", so why not have a movie night?

Y'know, round up everybody in the cafeteria, harvest some of those funny-lookin' plants growin' topside, pop some corn (if they didn't have popcorn handy, maybe some beef treats), and watch a flick together...

[DjfunkmasterG]

Well, in Day, John mentions that the bunker is storing "de nega-tives to all of your fav-orite moo-vees", so why not have a movie night?

Y'know, round up everybody in the cafeteria, harvest some of those funny-lookin' plants growin' topside, pop some corn (if they didn't have popcorn handy, maybe some beef treats), and watch a flick together...

Movie night does solve a lot of issues.

[Wyldwraith]

It's difficult to say really because as soon as you are introduced as a new character to the film, it changes the entire dynamic and maybe a whole lot of the future plot. I mean it's great saying that I would stop Steven from going back into the elevator for the walkie talkie, but because I am there, events may not have even led to that occurence. Maybe I ended up in the elevator instead. Or Steven never even started shooting because I was there with him. Or maybe because He "tripped" over a bag I left near the helicoptor, he fell to his death off the roof. Who knows? It changes the game.

Almost,
You're essentially stating (IMHO) the laws relating to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. That Observation = Interaction, so even passive observation changes the final outcome.

The problem with that idea (again, IMHO) is that the dynamics of interpersonal relationships are a LOT of observations all being made at the same time, so it's likely that many "ripples" caused by your observing the actions of the characters will cancel each other out. Example: You might stop Stephen from getting killed, but unwittingly get Peter killed instead. OR, you might not have any impact on events at all if you believe in the elasticity of Time (which basically means that events were likely to go a certain way, and will in essence "course correct" to turn out the same way regardless of what changes you make)

Once you get in as deep as considering if simple passive observation will dramatically affect events, I'm lost because I don't know the math.

I do believe that an additional person's presence COULD cause things to turn out wildly differently, depending on the level and persistence of the interaction on the New Person's part. Time may be elastic, but I believe you can pull it out of shape/force it to take a new course the same way you can pull on a rubber band until it snaps. It'll resist, but if you keep applying increasing pressure (Ie: Keep doing things likely to generate a specific outcome), eventually you'll bring about that outcome. That's JUST MY OPINION however, as I have nothing to substantiate that.

On a gut level I'm stuck back in the moral quandary. Whether it ACTUALLY is or not, it would FEEL like murder to me if I didn't try to "save the good guys". Fuck Cooper and the bullet he's riding out on when he sticks his head out of the basement. Hell with Rhodes and the bullet he's going to catch in the back while having Steele point his gun at the scientist chick from Day. I'd feel like I should at least try, to keep my conscience clear if nothing else.

I too agree that Day is a different prob than the others though, for reasons already stated. Land just feels like it has so much going wrong that just looking at logistics, I feel like I'd need at least one partner to enter the movie with me to stand any chance of fixing everything needing fixing there.

Oh, and whoever said they'd shoot everyone in Survival and roll credits in 3 mins, priceless. Simply priceless. :)

[clanglee]

Almost,
You're essentially stating (IMHO) the laws relating to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. That Observation = Interaction, so even passive observation changes the final outcome.

:)

Kinda. . . I'm not saying I would just observe tho. By just observing then the outcome could remain the same. . it may not because the littlest change in a group dynamic could change some major outcomes down the road (not a big one for fate) But I would have to be an active participant. . .hell. . by being there at all. . in that situation. . . .I would sort of be required to be an active participant. I doubt any of those groups would allow me to just be, without pulling my weight. But, I would do what I could to change the outcome for the better for the characters. Hell, I might even be compelled to tell the more reasonable of them what was going on and give up the goods on what was going to happen.

[Trin]

In Day, I'd kill Miguel on sight. That's a must-do. That alone will solve a bunch of problems. Plus, it would just plain feel good.
Right until Rhodes feeds you to the zombies.

Any plan that involves murdering what *will become* the villain has to allow for the backlash of that crime. I might see killing Logan as a better fate than letting him feed soldiers to the zeds, and the resultant military backlash. But is it better killing him outright. And what's your rationale to the group? I want to see explaining to Rhodes, Sarah, or John that, "He was going to feed humans to the zombies and thus compromise the whole place eventually resulting in Miguel letting the zombies in." They'd think you were crazy in addition to being homicidal.


...because I am there, events may not have even led to that occurence....

Who knows? It changes the game.Exactly. It's hard to craft an intervention that assures a more favorable result. No one could've predicted the ending of the movie halfway through. A set of improbable events led the demise of the whole place. What's to say that an equally improbably set of events would come to pass with someone's involvement?

Keep Miguel from letting the zeds in and maybe the military stays in control. The powder keg blows over something else. Everyone dies because Rhodes and crew don't have the distraction of the zeds. It simply could be worse so easily.

And I think Wyldwraith found the stash of weed before movie night started. :)

[SRP76]

Right until Rhodes feeds you to the zombies.

Any plan that involves murdering what *will become* the villain has to allow for the backlash of that crime.

Rhodes would give me a promotion and personal commendation. By offing that fuckup, I just gave Rhodes (and the others) "a shot at some lovin'".

[Leeloo]

Well, for my first post, this one is a no brainer.

In Day, lets assume the survivors in Washington did come to see if they were alive after losing radio contact. Obviously, I would be a part of their group and we would crash that underground, sad excuse for a party. I would then seduce Rhodes over the next few days. After that, I would keep him "so busy at night" that he wouldn't have any energy left to be such a prick during the day. Problem solved.:D

Since my new group would join the others underground, they would have more men and Miguel could be "pulled off active duty for a while". I'd make sure they drugged him up real good, a drooling mess that couldn't even stand, let alone work an elevator.

Now for Logan, I'm not sure. So I guess we would all be screwed anyway in the end. But at least I'd have a bit of fun before I died.;)

[JDFP]

Well, for my first post, this one is a no brainer.

In Day, lets assume the survivors in Washington did come to see if they were alive after losing radio contact. Obviously, I would be a part of their group and we would crash that underground, sad excuse for a party. I would then seduce Rhodes over the next few days. After that, I would keep him "so busy at night" that he wouldn't have any energy left to be such a prick during the day. Problem solved.:D

Since my new group would join the others underground, they would have more men and Miguel could be "pulled off active duty for a while". I'd make sure they drugged him up real good, a drooling mess that couldn't even stand, let alone work an elevator.

Now for Logan, I'm not sure. So I guess we would all be screwed anyway in the end. But at least I'd have a bit of fun before I died.;)


Er, um, do most women find Rhodes to be sexually appealing?

As far as the "DAY" scenerio goes, the best chance you have of success in making any type of impact to the scenerio is to go back to before Major Cooper died and attempt to keep him alive and in command. However, the problem with this is that we don't know why/how Major Cooper met his demise -- we'd only be left with the knowledge of aforementioned characters within the film and would be just as clueless to the cause of Major Cooper's passing. However, keeping him alive would, no doubt, have a 'major impact' (haha, pun) on the events of the film as well as our presence in being there as well.

The introduction of any new dynamic from a new character that was not previously there or by removing a character that was previously there would have major implications to the events of the film (for all three of the trilogy films).

Imagine how different "Night" would have been if Johnny didn't die but managed to wrestle away the ghoul from Barb and they both fled to the farm-house. Imagine how different a film "DAWN" would have been if they had the nerdy WGON kid ("Our responsibility is finished") show up with a pointed gun to the dock knowing they were going to fly out of there that night. And, with "Day", Cooper's not dying would have had a major impact on the events of the film as well.

j.p.

[Leeloo]

Er, um, do most women find Rhodes to be sexually appealing?

I don't think that most women do, but I'm not like most women. In that scenario, I'd be more than willing to sacrifice my sleep for the team.:D

[Trin]

I would then seduce Rhodes over the next few days. After that, I would keep him "so busy at night" that he wouldn't have any energy left to be such a prick during the day.
Whoa... lol... take a dude who is that much of a prick in normal situations and make him the only dude gettin some? That's a recipe for 10X prick.

And welcome to the forums!!

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I think you might be on to something with your statement about improbable outcomes, though perhaps not in the way you intended. If you look at how convoluted and unlikely the breaching of security in the Day bunker and the Green in Land is, one could argue that ANY attempt to counter-influence events so the unlikely disaster doesn't happen has a high degree of success.

Example: Let's say I can't get Kauffman, Riley or anyone else important to believe that zombies are going to cross the river and devour them. If I stay at it though, I might very well convince at least a FEW people that it COULD happen. You don't really need a wall or something foolproof to keep the zombies from crossing, you just need someone to be watching and able to give timely warning that they're crossing to the community. Had the bulk of the zombies been caught in mid-river, they would have been easily slaughtered by even a handful of people with semiautomatic weapons.

Or in Day, Sarah BARELY managed to get Rhodes and the others to give Miguel a chance to recover post-amputation. She accomplished this mainly by force of will, and like I said, it was a very near thing. Had ANYONE been there and simply been dogged about, oh I dunno, LYING that they've heard Miguel muttering to himself for awhile now that there's no point to going on and that it would be better if they simply stopped fighting to keep the zombies at bay.

Even the accusation that Miguel had been considering acting against the "Bunker community" would probably have been enough to tip Rhodes into sticking with demanding Miguel be put down.

Ok, say that didn't work. One could just sit outside the trailer with a gun, or hell, a big ROCK in your hand. Follow Miguel to the elevator when he staggers to it and bash his head in. Military men would notice the lack of drag marks, and your lack of a gun or other menacing weapon would rule out coercion, so they'd be very likely to believe Miguel was at the elevator under his own power, and had no business being near it. From there it's more than reasonable for others to assume you acted in self-defense by preventing him from breaching the base.

My point is that GAR really had to work at it to create the unlikely worst-case-scenarios we see at the end of his movies. They can't be THAT hard to interrupt/alter, relying on successions of increasingly improbable events as they do.

[BillyRay]

You let Miguel turn, and let Logan study the entire process.

Ev'vr body wins.

[Wyldwraith]

Except by then Miguel has opened the base to the zombies and everyone is dead :(

Nice thought. Wonder if Bub would've been jealous if he had to share the Doc's attention with Zombie-Miguel?

[Trin]

My assertion is that you are still in a GAR movie. Thus no matter what intervention you perform the situation is going to turn horrific against you in some unforeseen twist that may or may not result in your death, but assuredly you have no control over it whatsoever.

For example perhaps you decide to kill Logan. That will (hopefully) defuse the problem with the military, and if you divulge to them why, it may even chill them out some on the rest of the scientists. However, as you are preparing to whack Logan, unbeknownst to you Bub has figured out how to unchain himself (which we know he does later anyway). Bub does so, finds a gun (with the hopes of performing his tricks for Logan), and enters Logan's lab. He is approaching from behind as you hit Logan with a huge rock on the head. When you turn you see a distraught and angry Bub waiting to greet you, gun in hand, who just saw you kill his beloved master. In the imortal words of Steele, "Bang. You're dead."


Had the bulk of the zombies been caught in mid-river, they would have been easily slaughtered by even a handful of people with semiautomatic weapons.
Lol - or at the fence at the motor pool. Or in the streets of the Green. Or at the window/door of the skyscraper. Or in the skyscraper atrium. Or anywhere else that the zombies were able to overwhelm the people with semiautomatic weapons.

Which lets me continue my assertion. If you are put into this movie and go stand by the river, I think you are going to be horrifically surprised to discover that any attempt you make to shoot zombies in the head with individual bullets will fail. You're in a GAR movie after all. If you have a semiautomatic weapon you will, being subject to he rules of the GAR universe, shoot as many bullets as you can into the zombie belly and then die with a football field's worth of distance behind you that you could've run.

Your best bet if you ever find yourself in a GAR zombie movie is to make as many pithy comments as you can, ruminate on the nature of zombies and cry about the "why" of it, and arm yourself with a puny gun and possible a knife. Under no circumstances should you EVER trade up to a better weapon. Make sure to have lots of long concerned looks on your face, and try to have at least one or two grand realizations about the defensive position of your area. I'm not saying that's a guarantee of living to the end, but it's a start.

Oh, and if you hear dogs barking and gunfire outside, don't look out the window.

[Wyldwraith]

My assertion is that you are still in a GAR movie. Thus no matter what intervention you perform the situation is going to turn horrific against you in some unforeseen twist that may or may not result in your death, but assuredly you have no control over it whatsoever.

Lol - or at the fence at the motor pool. Or in the streets of the Green. Or at the window/door of the skyscraper. Or in the skyscraper atrium. Or anywhere else that the zombies were able to overwhelm the people with semiautomatic weapons.

Which lets me continue my assertion. If you are put into this movie and go stand by the river, I think you are going to be horrifically surprised to discover that any attempt you make to shoot zombies in the head with individual bullets will fail. You're in a GAR movie after all. If you have a semiautomatic weapon you will, being subject to he rules of the GAR universe, shoot as many bullets as you can into the zombie belly and then die with a football field's worth of distance behind you that you could've run.


Funny stuff Trin,
Well yea, if I'm saddled by the hideously constricting conventions of the movie, and not allowed to act as an actual intelligent human being with free will and a desire not to be eaten with the wits to act on that desire then yes, I'm zombie chow.

Was under the impression we were discussing this from the perspective of it was us put in the movie, as we are, not as GAR characters are.

You're right though, on all counts about his formulaic conventions. With logic/realism in the mix it would be different though. In reality, 2-3 guys with pistols and a few mags apiece could completely decimate the zombies in mid-river while standing near the riverbank. According to GAR though, despite people knowing you need to shoot them in the head to have any effect, 2 bullets in 3 still end up fired at the torso.

Just one reason I wouldn't mind bludgeoning GAR with a mackerel that's been left in the sun for a couple days.

[sandrock74]

Actually, if I found myself in one of the films, I would be sure to hang out with the cool black guy! :cool: The cool black guy always lives. Well, except poor Ben, but he did live the longest!

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
If I was thrust into a GAR movie I would incidentally find myself acting counter to all the conventions that seem to allow many characters to survive. The key motif for me would be to do my best to cope with, and adapt to the horror of the situation. Then it would be about finding a way to hook up with the survivors and begin the process of convincing them my judgment could be trusted.

Though truisms, there's an element of truth in the behavioral formula GAR uses to construct his protagonists. The trick would be separating the good from the bad. Easier said than done I know, but at the very least I'd watch a movie that depicted a main protagonist who avoided all the common pitfalls and brought a ton of realism to events. Some think that the mistakes portrayed are crucial to the development of good plot in a survival horror flick, but I tend to disagree with that assertion. Not saying the characters should be flawless supermen and strategic geniuses, because that's just as aggravating as watching protagonists repeatedly take stupid risks for trivial reasons. Just saying a bit more common sense would be great.

That in mind, I'd probably keep my ambitions low-key. Instead of trying and failing to fix the entire doomed scenario, maybe just focus on saving one more person than survived in the unmodified course of events.

It's an interesting debate, but dunno what else there is to add that hasn't been said. I mean, how would you handle it Trin?

[Wyldwraith]

Boo,
::waves his hands and chants, performing thread-necromancy::

Liked this thread a lot. Shame it's dead. Just don't get into the discussions of various versions/releases of zombie flicks/books/comics I'm not into.

Sooo...maybe went about this the wrong way. Instead of going at it from the perspective of repairing the preexisting scenarios of the movies, what if anything would you consider doing completely independent of the events already happening?

Ie: Instead of ending up at the Mall, might you just say to hell with that group and go do something else, or might you even try to convince them the Munroeville Mall is a BAD idea?

One of the things that always interested me about the first four movies is the progression of the undead infestation/domination in a linear manner. The various intervals of the zombie apocalypse emphasize different elements of the human condition, and prompt the asking of different questions related to human nature.

I've always had a thing about "What If?"/counter-factual scenarios both in history and in favorite novels and movies. Although I tend to go WAY off the established mark. Like wondering what the zombie apocalypse might've been like if more groups of cops/military went mobile-caravan like RE:Extinction.

Guess in a way I'm still a bit sore that GAR chose to do the CRAPTASTIC Diary and Survival instead of working with the one movie ending in which he didn't at least strongly hint at the ultimate doom of the survivors. Would've loved seeing more of Riley's crew on the way to Canada. Just not enough of the On-the-Move type survival horror IMO. Which is why I'm as forgiving of RE:Extinction as I am.

What does everyone else think?

[Trin]

I mean, how would you handle it Trin?
Sorry, I dropped the ball on this.

In all seriousness (since I'm not sure I ever tried to take this seriously - sorry jd)...


Night
-------
Slow them down when they go to gas up the truck. There's no reason for that huge f-up. Gas up the truck and get out of there. Head towards where the Green will eventually be. We know that city stood and it should be close enough for them to make it.

And you gotta keep an eye on the little girl, sad as that is.


Dawn
------

Try to get them to do the trucks more methodically in an attempt to save Roger. Use the trucks to thin out the zombies. Park on the far side of the parking lot and draw the rest away. Make things safer near the mall doors. They had time. There was little risk.

Once the mall is secure, build a better wall to hide the upstairs. Then hide the helicopter. If the bikers still come after the mall use the chopper to fly high above them and drop molotovs down on them as they approach. A little fire might entice them to turn around. If they are just dead set on getting into the mall then use the chopper to get out of there, at least until they move along. Or just leave - the group was planning to leave anyway.


Day
------
The hard part with Day is that unless you are above Rhodes you have no authority to do anything. Your only option is trying to convince others of stuff, and neither of the leaders (Logan & Rhodes basically) was particularly interested in anyone's opinion.

So you gotta be a little inventive in making changes...

This is gonna sound crazy... but... shoot Logan in the head and then bite him. When the others come to investigate say Bub bit him and you did what had to be done. It's your word against the crazy dead scientist and the zombie who kept getting a hand stuck near his mouth. They'll believe you and with the whole "feeding soldiers to the zombies" problem averted a lot of the downstream problems go away.

At that point the scientific team will be too small to continue. Convince Fischer and Sarah that the scientific endeavor is over. Stop the experiments. Destroy the zombies in the labs. Abandon the pen - just leave it alone. That saves Miguel and the other two soldiers.

Convince Rhodes to turn the military attention toward finding an island to secure. Once they've done that move the entire group to the island in groups of 3 plus supplies. Spend some time just relaxing and getting mental faculties back in order. Then start making forays to the mainland for supplies and better comm equipment.


Land
-----
So many problems. Big Daddy leads the zeds to FG... Slack lands Riley/Charlie in jail... Cholo steals DR.

Okay, here's my plan.
1) Get onto the scavenging team.
2) Destroy Big Daddy as soon as he appears at the gas station. That'll at least defer the zombie problem till another day.
3) Conveniently be in the area to save the kid at the liquor store. Make sure to buddy up with Cholo as much as possible over it.

*Wait for the next morning... at which point Riley saves Slack and gets thrown in jail - just let that happen - they're safe enough in jail*

4) Stop Cholo after he comes back from seeing Kaufman. Stop him from stealing DR. Say that you will take possession of DR and use it against Kaufman during the next scavenging run. Attempt to enlist Cholo to be part of the group to overthrow Kaufman, but attempt to convince him he must be patient. If he refuses, kill him. Kaufman was having him killed anyway so no one will question it if you get caught.

*guard the river during the next night to be SURE no other zombie took Big Daddy's spot leading them to FG*

5) During the next scavenging run take DR and tell Kaufman you'll shell the Green if he doesn't send the money. State it exactly like Cholo did. Yes, it's stupid. But we know it will result in Riley being sent after you and Kaufman attempting to leave. If we state a different list of demands or consequences Kaufman might respond differently. It's better to stick to the situation we can predict.
6) Disable the remote control receiver in DR.
7) Wait for Riley to come after you. When he does attempt to enlist him in the effort to overthrow Kaufman. State in clear terms that shelling the Green is a bluff. At worst you plan to besiege the city and not let any supplies in or scavengers out until Kaufman steps down. If he joins you, great. If he refuses to join offer him the car and let him go on his way.
8) Let Kaufman go.
9) Combine with Mulligan and his group (and potentially Riley/Slack/Charlie) to "make this place what we always wanted it to be."

Lots of things that could go wrong there... but it's the best I could come up with.


Diary
-----
Smash Jason's camera in the hospital at the first sign of him being useless. If he continues to be a whiny little beyotch use the camera shards as toilet paper on his ... you get the drift.

[AcesandEights]

This is gonna sound crazy... but... shoot Logan in the head and then bite him.

Trin, you sneaky bastard! Just hope you don't get shot in the head if someone walks in on you biting on the Doc!

I'd have to give this one some thought. Hell you'd think I'd have an immediate answer, given all the imagining the movies prompted when I first saw them.

[Trin]

Trin, you sneaky bastard! Just hope you don't get shot in the head if someone walks in on you biting on the Doc!A calculated risk. But given how often the good doctor had visitors I figure it'd be safe enough.

[Publius]

Once the mall is secure, build a better wall to hide the upstairs. Then hide the helicopter.

Hide the helicopter? How you gonna do that? Maybe you could put an inflatable Santa Clause in it and pretend it's a Christmas display. Then the bikers would just think "seems like the darn malls decorate for the holidays earlier every year!"

[Wyldwraith]

Hide the helicopter? How you gonna do that? Maybe you could put an inflatable Santa Clause in it and pretend it's a Christmas display. Then the bikers would just think "seems like the darn malls decorate for the holidays earlier every year!"

Well, the bikers first saw the chopper while it was airborne during one of Fran's lessons. We don't know (but it's a good bet) that had it remained grounded with a tarp thrown over a loose square framework to conceal the outline that the bikers wouldn't have simply assumed the mall inhabitants had a helicopter. Especially given the obvious evidence that they'd moved so many vehicles around. It's more likely they'd assume the mall's defenders arrived by ground the same way they did.

Then like Trin said, you've got the chopper to give them a nasty surprise with.

[AcesandEights]

Hide the helicopter? How you gonna do that? Maybe you could put an inflatable Santa Clause in it and pretend it's a Christmas display. Then the bikers would just think "seems like the darn malls decorate for the holidays earlier every year!"

Maybe just some sort of basic camo and obstructions to break up the profile of the bird. It wouldn't work wonders, but might help with regards to casual observation...though possibly not in this case, it would still be a sound tactic if you're hiding out anywhere in an apocalyptic situation and have your escape vehicle out in the open.

[Trin]

Hiding the chopper would be relatively simple given some 2x4's and tarps. Heck, they could paint it to look charred and burnt, like it had exploded. Maybe tack some shards of metal to the fuselage near the gas tank to make it look ruptured.

But there is a larger point here to be considered. Since the bikers saw the helicopter when Stephan and Fran were doing their flying lesson, there's nothing to say that hiding it would've helped. Assumedly, the thing could be hidden 99.9% of the time and by random chance the bikers still see them flying it.

We don't know that the bikers would've cared about the chopper just sitting there idle. They surely saw tons of helicopters as they roamed around. The only reason it caught their attention was because there were people in it, and that caught their attention long enough that the scoped out the mall.

In a sense, having a helicopter in a zombie apocalypse is a very bad thing. I would guess that most people on this board believe that the helicopter in Dawn was sorely underutilized. They could've used it to help scout the area, to pre-emptively attack the growing zombie numbers, and to scavenge nearby shops/buildings.

But think about this. If you go flying around the neighborhood often enough you're bound to attract attention, some of it intent on having that helicopter for themselves. And assuming you fly straight to and from your base you'd be giving any would-be raiders in your area a straight line to your hideout.

My personal opinion is that in Dawn the helicopter was a non-issue with regards to the biker attack. I think the bikers would've hit the mall (and every mall like it) regardless as to whether there were people inside or not. But I still like the idea of hiding it.

[Wooley]

Try to get them to do the trucks more methodically in an attempt to save Roger. Use the trucks to thin out the zombies. Park on the far side of the parking lot and draw the rest away. Make things safer near the mall doors. They had time. There was little risk.



Yeah. Definately have Peter in an overwatch position as Roger hotwired the trucks.




So you gotta be a little inventive in making changes...

This is gonna sound crazy... but... shoot Logan in the head and then bite him. When the others come to investigate say Bub bit him and you did what had to be done. It's your word against the crazy dead scientist and the zombie who kept getting a hand stuck near his mouth. They'll believe you and with the whole "feeding soldiers to the zombies" problem averted a lot of the downstream problems go away.


"What the fuck happened soldier?"
"Sir! Frankenstein's pet took a chunk outta his ass, so I smoked him!"
Sneaky. You win the Kobayashi Maru.






Diary
-----
Smash Jason's camera in the hospital at the first sign of him being useless. If he continues to be a whiny little beyotch use the camera shards as toilet paper on his ... you get the drift.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

[Thorn]

First of all I think it would be really hard to convince anyone to listen to you in any of these situations, there are already strong alpha types around in in some cases power struggles. You would just be one more voice.

That said you clearly could not pull the 'I am from the future" or "I saw this on tv" cards as they would likely dismiss you as having lost it. Maybe you could prove it somehow by telling them what was going to happen somewhere, describing zombies that were approaching in great detail... something.

But if it was like time travel going back and changing one thing could change other things ya?

Anyhow let's suppose you did get yourself into a position where you could affect change...

Night:
Show up at the Cemetery first, alert Barbara and Johnny as to what was going on. Explain it in detail. Then when the first ghoul appeared explain that he looked like one of them and then advise them both to keep their distance. I would of course have armed myself and I would give a show of it making them see what threat he posed. That way they would not write me off as a lunatic, and see that my statements were based on fact.

Then with a perfectly working car, and two able bodied people (I would assume Barbara would be much less frantic if her brother was not killed before her eyes, and she was not in fear of her life/flight mode.

I would then head to the farm house and dispatch any ghouls in the area buying time we might need. Before going into the house and knocking on the cellar door announcing in no uncertain terms that we were living humans and we were there to help, I would even enlist Mrs. Cooper unwittingly in this effort by saying something like 'I know you are scared, we are scared to but this is important especially if someone with you has been hurt.. or bitten by one of those things. We need to take immediate action to help if that is the case or the outcome could be terrible". I would of course make a show of looking around first and then make a statement like "Cellar door is locked they must have taken shelter down there, maybe they are too afraid to come up?"

After coaxing Cooper out of the basement however I could I would put him to work with the rest of us securing the house waiting for Ben. While I was doing this I would take Cooper with me to the Gas pump and while there I would kill him. I would of course fill up plenty of containers with Gasoline just in case.

Returning to the house I would tell his wife he was killed by ghouls and I will have staged it to look that way not that I am expecting people to go investigate. But just in case.

Following that I would hunker down and wait for Ben. I would have the car ready to go with supplies, and I would have more prepped to go by the door in case we needed to Flee the house we could load them into Ben's truck. During this entire time I would have EVERYONE working to fortify the house much better than it was in Night. Let's be honest they lacked time and man power to do it right.

I would then post a flag outside, a white flag. I would also find paint or use something else as makeshift paint to write on the outside of the house that will be approached by the sheriff and the clean and swap team that clearly indicates 'Living people inside, do not shoot".

After Ben arrives I would work to get him on my side as well and I would insist on isolating the little girl explaining that a medical team i was with explained that bites from the "ghouls" was responsible for the dead coming back to life and it was fatal 100% of the time. I would speak to Ben privately about this, and ensure he was on my side. I would then work with him to enlist the others before communicating it to her mother who naturally would be more hysterical. The girl would then be restrained and isolated or if possible destroyed.

I do not feel in either case of me killing people it would be murder, or go against my moral standings. I feel that Harry would indeed cost people their lives if left unchecked, and I know the girl will. That is self preservation, though I may be justifying here.

We would all at that point work together to fortify the house, defend the house, and wait for morning. If need be retreating upstairs and removing steps as we went this would be actually something that was started ahead of time to make the work faster and easier.Then we would stay clear of the windows until people arrived and we would announce we were there with flags held out upper level windows and with calls that we were alive and unharmed.

Dawn:
This is a tricky one because you are faced with not only winning the trust of the survivors, but also convincing them that taking you along is a good idea. They are already concerned with Fuel, they are concerned with getting caught as they are stealing and abandoning their posts, and they are in a hostile situation where they are already looking out for themselves first. Such as not sharing luxury items and so on.

So where to enter the picture that is both safe enough for you and would find the survivors more receptive to your presence and not put you in a situation where you are going to get shot by them?

Honestly I find it hard to do this, at the start i can not see them taking you with them. Not at the tv station, you wouldn't be able to get near the place until security leaves. At that point it is far too hectic for them to trust you and they are concerned about fuel resources. Stephen would be a problem here.

Then you could try to integrate yourself with the swat team, but at no point is this safe. Shootout with druggies and slum people? Nah don't want to be in the middle of that.

I think the safest bet would be to show up when they are at the small airport. You know where all the zombies are, all the threats. While you do have fly boy with his gun and he is reckless and might kill someone accidentally, you have time and space here to approach them and possibly win them over. Perhaps by saving one of them.

For lack of an ideal situation I would make my entrance just before Peter opens the door. I would enter the building and alert him to my presence by banging on the window and holding a white flag in front of it waving it "I would announce that I was a living person, and to not shoot I would then instruct him that he should not open the door. I would ask that he explain to his friends outside I was coming around and to have them not shoot (especially fly boy). I would then come in and let him know that I had been here for some time trying to find help and that it was not safe to open that door as there were ghouls behind it.

If they asked where I was when they first landed I would advise them I ran and hid as I had a bad encounter with other survivors. I would ask for their help and explain how I could be of assistance. I would explain that I had some knowledge of the zombies as I had been working in support of a team of doctors who had been trying to find a cure and in the meantime developed a solid understanding of how they operated. I feel this combined with the fact that I "saved" Peter might be enough to win them over. I would also be another able bodied person that could carry my weight.

Then having gained their trust I would explain in greater detail the threat of attacks from other people, inventing a story about marauders and how the threat from people was as great if not greater than the threat of the undead and explain that we needed to be wary of this at all times.

After this I would upon landing at the mall:
-Always keep all stores locked,
-Greater a safer living area for me and the other survivors, creating an actual wall that the undead nor anyone else would not easily be able to get through and I would reinforce that. That stairway also would need to be filled with objects making traversing it very difficult and making defense of the upstairs hideaway all the easier.

Then the helicopter would certainly need to be better hidden from view at all times, and flying lessons would have to take place farther away from our base of operations and our path to and from the mall would have to vary and be one that would cause confusion to anyone trying to follow us.

Given my knowledge of when and wear the bikers would attack I would certainly strike first. I was thinking Molotov cocktails as well. I would strike them and then fly off in the opposite direction. They seem persistent, and the type that would want revenge so I would lead them well astray keeping them away from the area of the mall.

Not until I was sure I was not pursued would I return to the mall using a heading that would not be easily followed and would confuse anyone tracking us. While this would all take extra fuel it is worth it, there is no sense saving fuel if you are going to die.

Fortifying the mall with another able bodied person would make all the difference in the world. I agree and always have there needs to be a way to communicate from the eyes in the sky to the ground team. So I would set that up. Security would be assigned to the truck driven by Roger (peter would handle this) and I would drive pick up.

Constant communication, better planning, and pacing are in order here. Drawing the zombies away as was mentioned is a great idea. You just need to be smart to make this work, and if it was not a movie script I think any swat team member would come up with a better plan than what we see on screen in Dawn.

After the trucks were in place I would disable them. removing the batteries, popping the tires, ripping out wires. I would render them unmovable. The mall was not properly fortified because of the situation with Roger, with my intervention and guidance this would not be an issue.

If the bikers did find their way back to the mall we would make a defensive stand from the roofs and if they breached our defenses we would flee. Survival is key and there are other malls, other places. I would never die over a place. I think the survivors became too in love with the whole "castle" idea. I love castles, I am a big fan but sieges sometimes work. I think in a dead rising scenario you need to be of the mind that mobility may be required and every "castle" is a transient thing. It is good only so long as it is not penetrated, or until the supplies run out in that area. Eventually you would have to move on anyway as the resources in and around the mall were consumed. So this would just make that necessity something that was not on your own time table.

So be it.


Day:

With Day I would want to show up just as the Chopper landed and called for people I would be close and out of the way of the known undead (and the Alligator) I would walk up as if I was a survivor and thankful to see them. I would again be using the white flag to show that I was a peaceful, and B not a member of the undead club.

Then I would let them know about Fiddler's Green as a surviving city since it is the only one we are truly aware of at this point. I would explain that I was part of a group of survivors that had found one of the outposts that had been established but that it had been over run and I fled seeking other survivors and a place to hole up. I would sell the point that the Green was a well established bastion of civilization and that I could tell them how to get there and I would sell that there was a city full of survivors.

I think knowing you are not alone is a great thing to hear, and the lure of safety, and a familiar thing such as a city would be very enticing. I would endear myself to them and based on this I feel they would accept me in if not trust me right away. Once a part of their group and inside the base I would work to make myself useful, and play to both sides while not compromising myself or doing anything outwardly to offend either.

I would for a certain expose Frankenstein but not to the soldiers, I would expose him to Sarah and the other scientists. I would enlist them in resolving the issue. I would push for them to destroy the evidence and ensure there was nothing to tie Frankenstein to his crimes. He may be guilty of being a psychotic but he was not a murderer. I could not kill him or serve him up to be killed.

That having been accomplished I would lobby hard to show them the situation in the bunker was deteriorating and that they needed to transfer their work from the bunker to the green with the promise of better facilities additional medical staff and a more stable leadership presence of a non military variety.

With the military people I would do the same, explaining who the original mission needed to be abandoned as it were as there was no contact wit the government. I would sell that they were isolated and alone and therefore vulnerable. I would talk up the luxuries of the green and convince them that there were other soldiers there, more weapons, and vices which I think would appeal to them.

In the end I feel I could get both parties to agree to relocate to the Green. Then I would get them to use whatever military vehicles combines with RV's and the helicopter it took to make that trip possible.

I will skip land, Diary, and Survival for now at least.

[Trin]

Sneaky. You win the Kobayashi Maru.
I've been practicing by playing Global Thermonuclear War via dial-up.


...I would take Cooper with me to the Gas pump and while there I would kill him. ... I feel that Harry would indeed cost people their lives if left unchecked.


...to tie Frankenstein to his crimes. He may be guilty of being a psychotic but he was not a murderer. I could not kill him or serve him up to be killed.
I think you need to reevaluate these two positions against one another. Cooper wasn't a murderer either, and Logan was at least as likely to cost people their lives if left unchecked as Cooper was.

If you're half as successful in Night of averting disaster as you expect to be then Cooper might well be an asset instead of a liability.

Regarding Dawn... I think you have some good ideas but your take-charge attitude and overly-cautious nature might be offputting to the Dawn crew. They were pretty laid back. After 4 or 5 months of having to leave the stores closed and taking the other various precautions you mention they're probably going to start to see you as a Rhodes-like character. And if you try to tell Peter and Roger that they should be afraid of a roaming biker gang... good luck with that.

Regarding Day... I can imagine a scenario where you are inserted into the scene a few minutes before the helicopter arrives, and the zombies become agitated with your proximity and start moving around, then when the chopper gets close they decide not to land seeing the zombies out in force. Assuming you make it to the base... wow... I gotta say that's an aggressive vision of things. Your gonna have to be a pretty solid negotiator to get that group working together. And they're gonna have to overcome the traits that led them to the situation they were in.

Fun stuff!!

[Thorn]

It is a great point and I debated a long time over what to do with Cooper, ultimately I do not think he would ever work with you and as we saw in Night he was always working against you. His actions in my opinion and lack of action did lead to people dying and at times provide road blocks they had to over come to live.

It is hard for me to say I would kill anyone I am not a fan of it on any level but I think Cooper left unchecked would lead to death for people.

It is a valid point as I said and one I will have to ponder more.

As for Dawn it is a good point, the key is to knowing people and working the angles. You might indeed run the risk of being off putting. As I had said in all these scenarios there are already alpha personalities there so adding another is going to be a difficult thing. The trick I think is that we have an advantage knowing these people and what makes them tick since we have watched them act and react over and over. It is a look into their minds that would enable you to push the proper buttons.

Once you have made friends with people and earned their trust and things are going well not many people are going to do an about face. 'Yes he was a good guy with great ideas that helped us before but now he is a douche we all hate him". There would be varying degrees of dissension, and there would always be disagreements. It would come down to good people skills, leadership ability, taking advantage of knowing them as an observer in situations that have not even presented themselves to them yet, and will power that I think would allow me to prevail.

Your take on Day is spot on. It would be a very challenging effort to get the two sides to work together, especially because there is a natural rift there. However in my opinion, once given hope of something better, and the promise of what they both want they will work together for the greater good of the group. It seems to me that the relationship frays over the course of the movie. You come in early and turn that, you could accomplish great things. Easy? Hell no, possible? I think so, hope is a powerful motivator.

As to agitating the undead, great point! Thing is since no one said when we would arrive or how I am literally picking just as they are about to land to magically poof into the scene. So I was not much thinking about it. It is not as if we have to walk there, or hike there, or hang out for 5 minutes even. We can just jump in whenever? I jump in right as they are landing. It took forever for the undead to appear and to shamble forth towards their calls over the bullhorn.

[Trin]

It is a great point and I debated a long time over what to do with Cooper, ultimately I do not think he would ever work with you and as we saw in Night he was always working against you. His actions in my opinion and lack of action did lead to people dying and at times provide road blocks they had to over come to live.
It's a question, that's for sure.

Another angle to the thought - what if Ben didn't agree with retreating upstairs and was unwilling to remove stairs in advance? He was no better than Cooper at teamwork. I think Cooper would've worked together very nicely had everyone agreed to move to the cellar. If you want to label someone as having "lead to people's deaths" you can surely put Ben in that category. Tom and Judy both died in his plan to get the truck gassed up.

Another question is - what if someone saw you do it? You may think you're alone out there but the stray Tom or Judy or even Johnny might've decided to run along after you a minute behind. It would be disastrous to have a blatant murder witnessed so early into it. Considering that you're still in a Romero movie you have to allow for the random stupid act to screw the protagonist.

I think your Dawn strategy is sound, but just needs to soften a bit to keep from seeming ogrish. For example, do the stores really need to be closed all the time? Why? If it's for the stuff inside them, simply take your months of free time and move the important stuff upstairs. Do you really even need that stuff? Since we know they had time to close the stores when the biker's hit it seems a worthless point to push it.


However in my opinion, once given hope of something better, and the promise of what they both want they will work together for the greater good of the group. It seems to me that the relationship frays over the course of the movie. You come in early and turn that, you could accomplish great things. Easy? Hell no, possible? I think so, hope is a powerful motivator.
It's certainly possible. I think you have a couple problems though. First, the hope of Fiddler's Green is not going to motivate anyone. Remember that they thought there were still people alive in Washington, yet they didn't even speculate on trying to get there. I don't think the carrot of a possible outpost equally distant away would motivate them. Second, the scientists thought they were working for the greater good of the entire world. They hadn't given up hope of finding... whatever... cure, treatment, solution.

One of the reasons I suggested a tactical elimination of Logan was that he was the recognized leader of the scientists. I don't think you can convince them of anything while he's still in the picture. He was too focused on his own agenda, and too strong a personality.

Day is kinda a catch-22. You really cannot convince them of abandoning the effort until it's more hopeless, but by that time events are spinning out of control.



Thing is since no one said when we would arrive or how I am literally picking just as they are about to land to magically poof into the scene.
True. Another thought on Day is that if they found you in that mess it might lead them to do a lot more exploring. Finding a living human in the midst of the zombies would change their disposition immensely.

[Thorn]

Again well said.

Night:
I had not really thought about Ben's poorly executed plan with the gas run. However that was complicated by Judy jumping in at the last minute no?

Also if Cooper had not set himself up as lord and master of the basement you would have had free run of the place and possibly found the keys sooner. Part of the reason they died was timing. If you get the keys sooner and get to the pump before all those ghouls show up there is less risk, also with more people there in a better frame of mind there is less chance of screw ups.

So while I agree, Ben could be trouble and it could well e argued his actions got people killed (His plan was not very sound) having another able body there, no stress/conflict from the basement boss, a hysterical girl, AND her brother to help. You are looking at an entirely different dynamic.

Also he would arrive not to a situation where he had to take charge of a bad scene, he would be arriving at a house that was prepared for a zombie defense, with sound planning in place, and a leader already actively calling the shots.

The whole dynamic of the film changes.

I will have to say though I think you may well have changed my mind on killing Cooper, being spotted killing him is a good way to get yourself locked out of the house.

Dawn:
The stores. No you are right there is no need to lock them all the time, I think your plan of moving the important goods upstairs is a better way to go. Especially if it keeps the peace and makes people happy. Ultimately all it does is give the bikers a hard time if they come in to loot. At that point with my plan we are leaving anyway so what is the point? Leaving them unlocked works better.

So I am amending my plan there for a certain.

Day:
On this one I think we have to agree to disagree, while I understand where you are coming from I think I could convince both sides to chase the carrot. None of them are very happy about the isolation and lack of communication, and both are sick of each other. The promise of a better place, a larger research team with more resources for the scientists, and the addition of more military types with a larger supply of weapons and ammo for the soldiers with the added perk of prostitutes, gambling, and blood sport would surely appeal to guys like Rhodes, Steel and Rickles.

Again I do not think it would be easy I just think in that movie more than any other we have firm stereotypes and characters who are easily read with simplistic motivations. Perhaps because they are degenerating into a lawless form, a more base form of themselves. Who knows. But they are just that easy to read for me. You would have to tread lightly because it is a powder keg down there, but again I have faith in my skills and my knowledge of the characters.

Thanks for the awesome feedback.

[Trin]

I had not really thought about Ben's poorly executed plan with the gas run. However that was complicated by Judy jumping in at the last minute no?
And Tom's fumble fingers at the pump. Maybe we should send them all out for the gas and let them get blown up? Then we could be boss of the upstairs, main floor, and cellar!! :P

In theory Ben's plan was a sound one, and with earlier timing and Johnny to help, it should work. Key points are to make sure the gas pump is handled calmly and make sure to get it done prior to more zombies arriving. Oh, and if you're going for the truck then either find the right goddam key or take a crowbar. I cringe everytime I see Ben shoot the gun at the gas pump.

Here's a question for you - what's the point of improving the defenses of the house if we're going to pursue successfully gassing up and escaping in the truck?

You know, the more I think about it, the more I favor siding with Cooper and attempting to get everyone into the cellar. I find it hard to argue that they would've survived the night there, and then you only have to deal with the little girl and the gun wielding idiots upon emergence the next morning. And, of course, the fact that Ben would need a lot of convincing. But there's a lot less randomness that can occur. We KNOW the cellar holds through the night. We DON'T KNOW what would've happened if they'd been in the truck all night. Just a thought.


On this one I think we have to agree to disagree, while I understand where you are coming from I think I could convince both sides to chase the carrot.I think there's some middle ground. I agree that the group could be convinced, I just don't think it happens early on. By the point that Sarah is talking to John in the Ritz that group is ready to go. But were they ready just after setting down from the chopper run? I don't think so. They hadn't hit rock bottom yet. Could they have been convinced after/during Rhodes "what are you doing with my time" speech? Maybe. Timing is everything. Plus, who you work on first might make a huge difference. No sense starting on Logan or Sarah. Maybe work on John and Bill first. Then you gotta get Rhodes interested. If you're that good with people then surely you can make him think it's his idea. That'd be helpful. What you cannot do is try to convince him using the idea of other people. Since he's now in command he's not going to want to run to an area where others might be in command. I don't think you (or anyone) ever convinces Logan. But if you got the rest, who cares. He either leaves or he stays.

After that it's really just a question of how the heck do you move them that far safely?

It's a fun discussion!!

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I have problems with the "Everyone into the cellar plan". One, they're going to (sensibly enough) want to take the guns down there with them. So, when the little girl dies and reanimates you've automatically got the potential for a Dawn '04-style shootout over a zombie child. The situation would only be exacerbated by having everyone penned up in close quarters, with no middle ground/compromise on zombie-girl (like isolating her in a separate room) possible in the cellar. Upstairs you could try to defuse the situation by demonstrating the danger and not triggering the parents' drive to protect their lil girl by putting her in one of the bedrooms and barricading the entrance from the outside.

Two, with everyone down in the cellar we have no idea how things would've gone with the morning rescue crew. If the zombies were loose and wandering simply because of the limited # that can press against the cellar door, how r the redneck killsquads to know there are survivors in the cellar? From the roof you can either pre-establish some sort of "Alive inside" banner, or signal them (carefully) when they arrive.

I do agree that you're working at cross-purposes to pursue barricading AND the truck gas-up plan. Like you said, no need to barricade if you're leaving, and no need to risk manpower at the pump if you aren't.

I'll stick by taking out the stairs once you've gotten everyone moved upstairs. If the Coopers don't want to come, let them sit in the cellar while u take the cooler-headed upstairs with you. Taking out the stairs provides just as effective a layer of protection as holing up in the cellar, but doesn't deny you other options should the situation require them the way the cellar plan does. More room to maneuver, with escape to the outside still possible.

[Thorn]

I think I had said in my post I would go for the gas early on before there were a lot of zombies, before it was night.

That said there would not be anywhere near the issues we are discussing. I would have the fuel ready to go, and the reason for that in my mind is that you would have two vehicles to transport all the survivors if need be. I mean Johnny and Barbara's car would be fine, there is no flight from the cemetery zombie to ruin it, we have the keys, everything is fine.

Now I am planning to wait it out in the house for the Night to blow over and for the rednecks to come around in the morning as mentioned in my plan, however as this is a Romero film as has been stated several times you have to have a back up plan. Having two vehicles prepared to go just in case is not a bad idea.

So to clear the air a bit.

The gas run would be done in the day time, with less ghouls, in a more organized fashion. Everyone's mental status would be better as there would be less pressure, less history, and less stress around (Fear of the house not being secure, a hysterical Barbara, the tension between the two factions, and so on)

I agree with Wyld on the upstairs plan I will defend it tooth and nail. The basement while it worked in Night was still a bad plan, tactically speaking there is no avenue of escape. One choke point is good but you have that upstairs and you have a built in moat once the stairs are removed it would be sufficient to survive the night until the redneck cavalry arrives.


As for Day that scene I think would be the hardest to make improvements on, the other movies I think are more cut and dried. It is the only situation where the two factions are so clearly divided and the less stable side is actually operating from a stronger position.

As for Rhodes not wanting to go where there is more authority to challenge his, it is something I thought of but you know if he is a career military man even if he is a bit off I do not think that would bother him if there was the promise of more security, more weapons, more supplies, and the all important lure of vices. He may be too far gone and he may view himself as a mini-dictator of the hole but from his speeches he more seems at odds with the scientific aspects of his assignment not the military aspects. They are actively trying to find people, and trying to communicate with the outside world. These are not the actions of a man who has thrown away his military obligations or sense of self interest and long term preservation.

Totally a great discussion most fun I have had in a long time, love the topic and the varying opinions and plans of the forum community as always... awesome.

[Trin]

Now I am planning to wait it out in the house for the Night to blow over and for the rednecks to come around in the morning as mentioned in my plan
So gassing the cars is a backup plan. Defending the house is the primary plan. Check. The only potential problem I see with this is that with two gassed up vehicles you'll have trouble convincing the group to stay in the house. The one thing they actually agreed on was that getting to a shelter was a good idea. Especially since the little girl needs medical attention. We know that medical attention won't help her, but they don't. Any attempt to convince them she's a goner would just drive them to seek medical attention even sooner.


Hmm,
I have problems with the "Everyone into the cellar plan". One, they're going to (sensibly enough) want to take the guns down there with them. So, when the little girl dies and reanimates you've automatically got the potential for a Dawn '04-style shootout over a zombie child. The situation would only be exacerbated by having everyone penned up in close quarters, with no middle ground/compromise on zombie-girl (like isolating her in a separate room) possible in the cellar. Upstairs you could try to defuse the situation by demonstrating the danger and not triggering the parents' drive to protect their lil girl by putting her in one of the bedrooms and barricading the entrance from the outside.
The little girl is a risk that can be dealt with. You know what's going to happen so you can keep an eye on her. You can take things downstairs like curtain drawstring to bind her with when she goes zombie. I think that risk is manageable.

Just to clarify, the "everyone into the cellar plan" is only worth considering given the unique nature of this thread. Since we KNOW the cellar will hold and we KNOW that the rescuers are going to be there in the morning. Personally I agree that the cellar is a bad choice in a world of unknowns.


I agree with Wyld on the upstairs plan I will defend it tooth and nail.
Let me throw in a potential monkeywrench. How are you going to convince Ben and the others that destroying the stairs is a sure-fire plan? That plan relies on our knowledge of zombie limitations. Remember that they don't know anything about zombies. Cooper thinks they can turn over cars. For all they know the things will get ropes or ladders and climb up. Or even worse get axes and start to cut down the walls. The upstairs has no exit points unless you fancy jumping out of second story windows.

I'm not saying the idea of retreating upstairs is a bad one. Just that you need to get your arguments well in order beforehand. For example, you might consider tying sheets together into a makeshift knotted rope and tie it to a windowsill in a bedroom or two to allow for escape points. You might put a couple mattresses in the truck bed and park it below a window. Stuff like that. You might also mention how usefull the stair boards would be in securing the rest of the windows and doors downstairs. Although, if you hadn't noticed, the house in Night was chocked full of scrap wood.

Okay, so what about this. You save Johnny, lure Cooper out of the cellar early, gas the car and truck up early, and then board up the house tight. Work on the stairs if you can convince them. At that point the TV suggests the shelters and so the inevitable conversation about leaving the house ensues. A possible compromise is suggesting that Johnny, Barbra, Cooper, Helen, and the little girl take the car and head to the nearest hospital. The rest of you stay in the house and keep the truck. That would diffuse the whole Cooper/Ben situation too and leave you in the relative safety of the house with no one injured. You could hope the house holds but know you could retreat to the cellar if need be. Or to the upstairs if you can convince them.

That seems like a fairly cohesive plan for Night that combines a lot of the good ideas.


As for Rhodes not wanting to go where there is more authority to challenge his, it is something I thought of but you know if he is a career military man even if he is a bit off I do not think that would bother him ... These are not the actions of a man who has thrown away his military obligations or sense of self interest and long term preservation.
I think I agree with this. I believe you could convince Rhodes to leave if you had something tangible in mind. He was ready to leave anyway. And I think he was still military enough to seek out a superior officer if he thought one existed.

And I want to see the scene where Frankenstein says, "Where will you go?" and you say, "Fiddler's Green. But take lots of money."

[SRP76]

I saw Fiddler's Green get mentioned in a Dawn part. So this means we know the whole series right from Night?

That makes it simple.

Laugh at the people in the farmhouse, in the mall, and don't even consider Florida. There's this dude in Pittsburgh named Riley who is, as we speak, building a battletank with infinite ammo, infinite fuel, and impenetrable armor. And he's doing it despite zombies attacking everywhere and despite not having the materials to do it. He must be God. So, we're just going to see him and talk him into taking his tank and heading out right away.

[Wyldwraith]

SRP makes a good point about Dead Reckoning,
Though personally I always believed it was constructed using the safety initially afforded to those who reached the green by being geographically protected on three sides, with the fourth being bridges and narrow alleys between sturdy buildings being easy to barricade versus any number of zombies.

There's a reason the Green lasted so long, and it had NOTHING to do with the competence of the defenders. Geographically unique oddities in the topography handed them 360-degree fortification capability with negligible effort. That said, if you knew about Riley at the BEGINNING of the uprising it might get you killed.

Our strength in this scenario is our Gods-Eye-View of the events that are to happen. We have NO first-hand knowledge on the precise timing when the rioting, panicking and human-centric violence caused by the disintegration of society ended, and efforts to secure the Green by the survivors began. Go in too early and you could get caught up in anything from riots to looting biker-gang petty warlords fighting it out with other petty warlords. (After all, SOMETHING prompted Riley to build the World's Baddest-Assed Battletank. Zombies explain the armor, external camera mounting and even the "Sky-Flower Launchers." Maybe even the mounted big guns, for breaking up the kind of hordes that Dawn '04 gave us a good look at.

Something else prompted Riley to mount a huge array of what are essentially anti-personnel weapons, in the form of automatic weapon mounts. Riley's smart enough to know automatic weapons are a piss-poor way to eliminate zombies, but they're great for breaking the morale of a marauding biker gang. Or establishing localized order via the threat of turning Dead Reckoning against the population if they don't settle down.

Any of the threats/pressures that prompted Riley to build such an extreme death-dealing war machine could be fatal if you insert yourself into the Green's situation too early. Much better to establish an intermediate safezone somewhere offshore, or in some building/structure so ridiculously well-supplied and impregnable it mocks the very idea of assaulting it. Since the latter is in short supply, a nice deserted island with fruit-bearing trees and a large freshwater spring is your best bet. There are a variety of them up and down the eastern seaboard, and many would be within short-wave radio range of the Green. Get your survivors following your lead, lead them to said island, and hunker down until the Green gets its shit together. That way you have the best of both worlds. Somewhere to fall back to if the Green situation goes tits-up despite your best efforts, but at least some sort of chance to help maintain a reasonably modern/comfortable pocket civilization at the Green once Kauffman and his ilk are dealt with.

I'm not sure I would even bother inserting myself into the Day scenario. Too volatile, too much can go wrong, and the potential upside is far too small for the risk involved. The combatants available for recruitment in Day are either stupid of hyper-agressive alpha personalities, and the rest simply have nothing I want. Hell, only 1 woman among them.

Much better off saving the Dawn crew. You get a pilot and two SWAT members that are significantly more stable, plus another couple individuals that are reasonably resourceful, that can be extracted with much less risk for greater gains.

If we're talking GAR's version of Night I'm leaning towards leaving them to their own ends too. You only have one decent man there, the rest are simply meat baggage. Now if instead we're talking Savini's Night, I'd take the risk because there you get Ben and a pretty gutsy Barbara, which tips the scales in favor of making them worthwhile enough in conjunction with the teenage couple that under the right conditions could be made useful to bother extracting them from their situation.

The key is to convince the people you want to recruit that there's more to fear than the immediate dangers of their individual short-term situations. That they need a long-term plan, and long-term stable shelter somewhere off the coast. I'm still puzzling out exactly how one might convince the desired people of that, especially once they've been initially "rescued" from immediate danger.

The redneck cavalry are a major temptation to go with them for the Night survivors, and a gassed up/well-stocked helicopter after a stopover at the Mall could provide equal temptation to the Dawn survivors.

How do you convince people when their situation is (relatively) secure that they need to be taking proactive action to get a better long-term plan going? You're fighting inertia there, and your very success in saving them could work against you once you need to motivate them to move on.

See what I'm saying?

[Thorn]

So gassing the cars is a backup plan. Defending the house is the primary plan. Check. The only potential problem I see with this is that with two gassed up vehicles you'll have trouble convincing the group to stay in the house. The one thing they actually agreed on was that getting to a shelter was a good idea. Especially since the little girl needs medical attention. We know that medical attention won't help her, but they don't. Any attempt to convince them she's a goner would just drive them to seek medical attention even sooner.

Yeah I might not have explained that so well on my first pass.



Let me throw in a potential monkeywrench. How are you going to convince Ben and the others that destroying the stairs is a sure-fire plan? That plan relies on our knowledge of zombie limitations. Remember that they don't know anything about zombies. Cooper thinks they can turn over cars. For all they know the things will get ropes or ladders and climb up. Or even worse get axes and start to cut down the walls. The upstairs has no exit points unless you fancy jumping out of second story windows.

Great point. It might be hard to sell pulling up the stairs but I think I can be convincing enough and I will reference thing I have seen that justifies it. Even if I have to make it up to sell it, and your idea about needing the wood is an excellent one. Also it is still a single choke point which is easy to defend and you have the high ground. Tactically the high ground is a superior position to fight from. People should see the logic in that.

You have a roof to get out on and I am sure there are ropes in the basement, or as you suggested blankets to make into ropes for lowering yourself down to the ground or the vehicles. You could easily make a diversion around back and then use cocktails to create a wall of fire deterring the ghouls while you make your flight.



Okay, so what about this. You save Johnny, lure Cooper out of the cellar early, gas the car and truck up early, and then board up the house tight. Work on the stairs if you can convince them. At that point the TV suggests the shelters and so the inevitable conversation about leaving the house ensues. A possible compromise is suggesting that Johnny, Barbra, Cooper, Helen, and the little girl take the car and head to the nearest hospital. The rest of you stay in the house and keep the truck. That would diffuse the whole Cooper/Ben situation too and leave you in the relative safety of the house with no one injured. You could hope the house holds but know you could retreat to the cellar if need be. Or to the upstairs if you can convince them.

I love this idea, if it came down to it the two vehicles gives you the chance to split up and send some of the malcontents away which would keep stress levels lower and thus improving your chances for survival. I would for sure see the Coopers leaving, they "need" to get their daughter medical attention, and if others wanted to go with them so be it. I would sacrifice one of the vehicles just to get the little biter, and the bald bastard out of my hair.


That seems like a fairly cohesive plan for Night that combines a lot of the good ideas.

Agreed!



How do you convince people when their situation is (relatively) secure that they need to be taking proactive action to get a better long-term plan going? You're fighting inertia there, and your very success in saving them could work against you once you need to motivate them to move on.

See what I'm saying?

Great points all I will just address the last bit for the sake of saving time and because I agree with a lot of the other things you said on a number of levels I would just need to think on them at length.

It is always hard to motivate people, they get complacent. Almost all humans do, it is in our nature. You get comfortable, the you get careless, then you get dead. I think I would just have to continue to motivate them by showing them the risk of doing so, and illustrating the need for action.

The thing with these films is I find it hard to find any characters who are completely devoid of logic. Some lose it based on a bad situation, but at least in my plans I always tried to come in early and head off tension and stress and work to befriend the principles and win their trust. I think while it would be difficult it would not be impossible.

Love the discussion all.