Christian Tea Party Terrorists.

[Exatreides]

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

-Whatever happened to well regulated?


FBI and local law enforcement pictures raid Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio. The plotted on defending America from the "Anti Christ." Apparently that includes threatening and plotting to kill a law enforcement officer.

Including planting IED's to destroy a funeral procession.

"According to the indictment, Hutaree members view local, state and federal law enforcement authorities as the enemy and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict."


http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/29/michigan.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2

The website show's a patch with a cross and two crossed knives. Also look's like their Tea party fans too! (The video explores their site)


These people are terrorists, plotting terrorist activities. They should be tossed lock and key with the other Terrorists we captured from Iraq and Afghanistan. Imagine the uproar if they were Muslim's plotting this. The out cry! Ohh the humanity they would say.


Should they be treated the same way as muslim terrorists we capture?

Should the fact that they are US citizen's have any barring on this? (Consider the American born Terrorists fighting against us in Iraq and Afghanistan, any different?)

Thoughts on their tea party affiliation?

[AcesandEights]

Wait, you mean there were some crazy people who joined a militia?

Shocking.

Every organization has it's fringe elements, though it does sometimes seem that the Tea Party has more fringe than bad 80s rocker wear.

Exibit A:http://www.leatherlollipop.com/prod_images_blowup/LJ259_BLACK_ORANGE_FRINGE_JACKET1.jpg

However, populist anti-government movements pull from all over the map, so this is bound to happen when a group outside the sanctioned two parties starts to hit its stride.

[BillyRay]

Should they be treated the same way as muslim terrorists we capture?



Well, the charge is Sedition, not specificly Terrorism (or being an enemy combatant per se). It's homegrown trouble by citizens, and extra heinous.

Regardless of political/idealogical/religious affiliation - if you start planning to kill law enforcement, expect the book to be thrown at you.

This applies to Tea Partiers, Weathermen, and even militant splinter factions of Up With People.

I just wanted to get that in before the shouting...

[EvilNed]

At least under communism there was order, you know! Nobody considered doing anything like this. Ever. At all.

[AcesandEights]

In Soviet Russia...___________ ___________s you!

Anybody? Anybody?

[JDFP]

At least under communism there was order, you know! Nobody considered doing anything like this. Ever. At all.

Oh, I'm sure they 'thought' about it, they just never spoke out in public (or most of them in private as well, never knowing who would tell on you to ensure a one-way ticket to the lovely resorts of Siberia).

:)

j.p.

[EvilNed]

Myths and fabrications, I tell ya!

[SRP76]

It's not their fault. Since it's soooooo cool to hate law enforcement and throw them under the bus at every opportunity, these guys just thought actually killing one would be the next logical step in that progression.

I personally don't care what happens to them. I'm not going to weep if they're thrown into a bag and drowned, but I'm also not going to cry a river for the Muslim shitbags, either. The existence of the scum in this article doesn't give the twats from elsewhere a free pass, so sorry.

[Arcades057]

Exatreides, you should stick to doing comedy and leave politics for others.

The points you miss are striking, but I'm not surprised that you missed them. 1st the fed leaked that militia members were going to be charged with building and selling pipe bombs... but that idea is laughable because the only people who purchase pipe bombs are federal agents and anybody with half an ounce of sense knows that.

Then, after that tactic was obvious failing, they claimed the raids were due to supposed threats made by the members against Muslim groups in the country... that, however, would have led to the quesiton "so why is it OK for militant anti-US Muslim groups to operate openly in the United States, as they do, at places such as Islamburg?" So that was dropped.

The stance of "they were arrested for weapons infractions" was too reminiscent of Waco and Ruby Ridge, so that was dropped in favor of "they were targeting police." Hey, everyone loves police, right?

But I'm sure you know nothing of that, since you grabbed a blurb and ran with it like a lemming. And as for the Tea Party connotation? :rolleyes: What are you, like 12?

[Exatreides]

I posted this story as soon as it broke. The things you are speaking about weren't known the time I posted it.

I was wondering how long it would take for someone to try to come to defend these seditious dogs.



The tea party implication was not made by me, but by CNN. I merely pointed it out

Please Anti Government and Religious fundamentalists? If Fred Phelps had a military wing, these guys would be it. They probably do lines of blow on framed pictures of Ron Paul. And listen to Prussian Blue as they pass the time waiting to kill cops.

They are insane.

Their forum has a section called "The Evil Jew Forum." http://www.hutaree.com/forum/

The fact that you're defending them has to be comedy... Right?

[JDFP]

The tea party implication was not made by me, but by CNN. I merely pointed it out


CNN? Don't get me started on them, I guess they're the more moderate of the liberal media outlets...

MSNBC is another story.

I always get a kick out of the fact that MSNBC always attempts to attack Fox News for never being 'fair and balanced' as they deem it and yet they employ Keith Olbermann (extremist liberal) and Rachel Maddows (extremist liberal), and Chris Matthews (extremist liberal).

Certainly, Fox News is leaning more towards the right, but for MSNBC to proclaim itself as anything other than the antithesis of Fox News for the leftists is a joke.

j.p.

[Arcades057]

I posted this story as soon as it broke. The things you are speaking about weren't known the time I posted it.


The things I'm talking were known just after the raids began and the information began to leak. I took an interest and looked into the subject and it wasn't hard to find the jumping around by the Feds when trying to link a reason behind their raids.


I was wondering how long it would take for someone to try to come to defend these seditious dogs.

About as long as it took someone to condemn them based on a federal warrant and the media coverage.


Please Anti Government and Religious fundamentalists? If Fred Phelps had a military wing, these guys would be it. They probably do lines of blow on framed pictures of Ron Paul. And listen to Prussian Blue as they pass the time waiting to kill cops.

They are insane.

Their forum has a section called "The Evil Jew Forum." http://www.hutaree.com/forum

This just further points out your ignorance on the subject. The Evil Jew Forum is obviously satirizing themselves, not Jews... which a simple click of that link proves, so either you're being willfully obtuse or you never clicked the link.

As to the rest of the drivel, you should get a job working for MSNBC. That level of intelligence and non-smear reporting would fit right in.


The fact that you're defending them has to be comedy... Right?

Not a bit. But I don't expect someone like you to understand that.

[Exatreides]

So you would defend Timmothy Mcvay and his anti government stance? The Religious wacko's at Waco? The Unibomber then? Any other domestic terrorist's you support? How about that guy who rammed a plane into an IRS building?

There exists no difference between those with the anti government sentiment they displayed and these guys. Worse even these guys are religious fundamentalists to the 10th power. Praising about the end times, confused and willing to kill for a religion (with the exception of Waco those guys were religious nutters too)
. Explain to me how you can defend ramming a plane into a building because you're too stupid to do your own taxes. Explain how you can defend Waco's madness. Better yet make me understand how you can defend the same type of people that blew up a truck in Oklahoma city and killed hundreds of innocent Americans.

If those attacks were stopped before they happened, would you be defending them?

Terrorism is terrorism and if enough proof is gathered to stop an attack before hand.. Then better.

Have to find proof? their video's and documentation on the site is more then enough to shut them down.

Well Arc I would rather have these scum judged by 12 then their victims carried by six.

I'm not going to sling personal insults at you, this isn't the old HPOTD forum. Grow up

[Danny]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/1269932616488.jpg

This is getting good, ignore me.

[Publius]

In Soviet Russia... militia arrests you!

Anybody? Anybody?

Russian police are called "militia." :)

[darth los]

So you would defend Timmothy Mcvay and his anti government stance? The Religious wacko's at Waco? The Unibomber then? Any other domestic terrorist's you support? How about that guy who rammed a plane into an IRS building?

There exists no difference between those with the anti government sentiment they displayed and these guys. Worse even these guys are religious fundamentalists to the 10th power. Praising about the end times, confused and willing to kill for a religion (with the exception of Waco those guys were religious nutters too)
. Explain to me how you can defend ramming a plane into a building because you're too stupid to do your own taxes. Explain how you can defend Waco's madness. Better yet make me understand how you can defend the same type of people that blew up a truck in Oklahoma city and killed hundreds of innocent Americans.

If those attacks were stopped before they happened, would you be defending them?

Terrorism is terrorism and if enough proof is gathered to stop an attack before hand.. Then better.

Have to find proof? their video's and documentation on the site is more then enough to shut them down.

Well Arc I would rather have these scum judged by 12 then their victims carried by six.

I'm not going to sling personal insults at you, this isn't the old HPOTD forum. Grow up

A terrorist is a terrorist. I just look forward to their torture in order to gain actionable intelligence which if they stick to their positions on the subject, the right wing should be all for it.

But then again when it's their people doing it, it's "different" somehow.

You've been around here long enough to know that debating these points with these people is futile. Do you really think these people care what you think, or are interested in getting along? Obama finally relized that and basically told them to go fuck themselves just like the Bush crowd used to do, and good for him.

They hate gov't and feel any gov't that they did not personnally vote for is illigitimate. It haoppened with Carter, Clinton and now Obama. It's all good when they are running things though.

They like to cite pols and say, that the majority of the American people are against the current healthcare legislation. Where was all this populist sentiment when 70% of the American people were against the two clusterfucks they got us stuck in?

Dick Cheney was infamously quoted that stat and replied, and I quote, "So?"

The same man was also informed that they had run up a record deficit during his administration and he replied, and again i quote, "deficits don't matter".

Isn't it funny how a black guy i now in office and now all these "Patriots" are all in a tizzy over him pretty much doing the same things the previous administration did?

The only difference? He told us he was going to do it. (The following is not sarcasm directed at you personally, just a statement.)

You see, in this country we have things called "elections". In the lead up to these, "elections" candidates campaign and tell the public what they are for and what they intend to do if elected. The people heard what Obama had to say and they heard what McCain had to say and said you know what? We'll go with the calm black man's plan. Then these "elections" are held and they winning candidate/party gets to govern and enact their agenda.

However it seems that it's only fair when it's a conservative agenda.

So what's all this bi partisan bullshit about? They have no intention on getting along. I don't wanna work with them either, I want to crush the intollerant bastards out of existence. That is all. :)

:cool:

[Danny]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/ohdear.jpg

This may be a less than 3 page record.


Kaoz will approach in the next.... 4 hours.

[AcesandEights]

Russian police are called "militia." :)

You're too good, Publius! You always bring something worthwhile to the table, even when joking. Cheers!

[darth los]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/ohdear.jpg

This may be a less than 3 page record.


Kaoz will approach in the next.... 4 hours.

You know what the big difference between left and right in this country is hells? Just read the posts. They always resort to name calling and insulting people's intelligence. So If we do set a record with this one it won't our fault.

And for the record, I'm a left leaning independent. While i do agree with some rep positions, most of them just seem illogical.

:cool:

[JDFP]

You know what the big difference between left and right in this country is hells? Just read the posts. They always resort to name calling and insulting people's intelligence. So If we do set a record with this one it won't our fault.

And for the record, I'm a left leaning independent. While i do agree with some rep positions, most of them just seem illogical.

:cool:

That's very interesting, Los. I'm one of the most Conservative-minded people here and I don't ever recall insulting you or attempting to belittle you in any way, personally, even if I have disdain towards many liberal principles. If anything, I have the utmost respect for your thoughts and your ideas as an educated person that you present yourself as here. I've had mostly rational and educated discussions with you (actually, I can't think of any that were not) even though I fundamentally disagree with many of your politicial ideologies. I think we can both agree that the problem with discussing politics (and the reason these threads are usually locked around the 3-page mark) is because people take politics so personally and instead of discussing political matters / religious matters in educated ways we break down (on BOTH sides) into rhetoric against those who we disagree with instead of the issue itself we disagree upon.

As far as logic, the problem with many liberals is that they do not want to listen to logic that we educated Conservatives (here's looking at you Milton Friedman, Bill Buckley, and the great traditionalists amongst the masses like I) present to them, and thus they retort with their own illogic. The problem on the Conservative side is that there are many who claim to be Republicans/Conservatives who are uneducated idiots who bring the party down into the mire without understanding what the hell they are talking about for their own gain -- and that's something that affects both parties equally. The problem, in many ways, isn't necessarily the political principle but that there are too many idiots arguing about the policial principle in both arenas.

j.p.

[AcesandEights]

I have to agree with J.P., there is no political credentials required for looking down one's own nose at the opposition. It unfortunately comes very naturally to people and is also fostered by pundits of all stripes. It's my biggest pet peeve about politics, as it serves only to obfuscate the real issues and focuses on really superficial points and circular logic, and a lot (nowhere near all, but quite a few) of the people who fuel the divides between us know this.

[darth los]

That's very interesting, Los. I'm one of the most Conservative-minded people here and I don't ever recall insulting you or attempting to belittle you in any way, personally, even if I have disdain towards many liberal principles. If anything, I have the utmost respect for your thoughts and your ideas as an educated person that you present yourself as here. I've had mostly rational and educated discussions with you (actually, I can't think of any that were not) even though I fundamentally disagree with many of your politicial ideologies. I think we can both agree that the problem with discussing politics (and the reason these threads are usually locked around the 3-page mark) is because people take politics so personally and instead of discussing political matters / religious matters in educated ways we break down (on BOTH sides) into rhetoric against those who we disagree with instead of the issue itself we disagree upon.

As far as logic, the problem with many liberals is that they do not want to listen to logic that we educated Conservatives (here's looking at you Milton Friedman, Bill Buckley, and the great traditionalists amongst the masses like I) present to them, and thus they retort with their own illogic. The problem on the Conservative side is that there are many who claim to be Republicans/Conservatives who are uneducated idiots who bring the party down into the mire without understanding what the hell they are talking about for their own gain -- and that's something that affects both parties equally. The problem, in many ways, isn't necessarily the political principle but that there are too many idiots arguing about the policial principle in both arenas.

j.p.


God dammitt dude. There's nothing I can say to that. I just want to point out this man's post and how it was intelligently constructed. I was ready for nastiness or some other drama. However, when a person communicates their points clearly, articulately and respectfully, no matter how much you might disagree with them you have to respect them.

I have to commend you for that.

Again, that's what elections are for. We voice our opinios at the ballot box and then hold the officials we elected accountable. None of this incindiary rhetoric that, while most won't take it literally, there are those that will take phrases like, drowning pelosi, getting her ready for the firing line, don't retreat reload and putting crosshairs targetting specific congress people and act on them. And , imo, that is the height of irresponsibility.

We live in very strange times. We have a black president and everything. It only takes one to adversely alter the course of history. Lee harvey Oswald, by all accounts a loser, took out a one of the most iconic transformative figures in our history, again for what always seems like political disagreements. Surhan Surhan did the same to his brother over his policies pertaining to the middle east.

I agree with you and have always said that nothing has caused more stryfe throughout history than politics and religion so it's no suprise that it would do so on these boards as well.

But the key is civility.

:cool:

[slickwilly13]

I do not think Oswald killed him and believe he was just the fall guy. Afterall, he was silienced very quick.

Btw, in before the lock.:p

[bassman]

Btw, in before the lock.:p

http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10438/InBeforeTheLock.gif

[Danny]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/gotime.jpg

[darth los]

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/gotime.jpg

Is that beore or after the tank crushed him? lolz

:cool:

[Exatreides]

Nice posts everyone, this is actually rather civil for us so far I must say.

More from the CNN Article
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/michigan.militia.arrests/index.html?hpt=T2


"This is a group that I would classify as neither a militia or a Christian group," said Michael Lackomar, a member of the Southeast Michigan Volunteer Militia. "They're really a fringe group outside of anything we do.
"They're more of a private army or a terrorist organization or really just a criminal organization."




Attorney General Eric Holder (http://topics.cnn.com/topics/Eric_Holder) called it "an insidious plan by anti-government extremists."
In the "About Us" section of the Hutaree Web site, the group says, "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. All Christians must know this and prepare, just as Christ commanded."
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an Alabama-based nonprofit organization that monitors hate groups and other fringe organizations, lists the Hutaree as a "Patriot" group militia.

[DubiousComforts]

t's my biggest pet peeve about politics, as it serves only to obfuscate the real issues and focuses on really superficial points and circular logic, and a lot (nowhere near all, but quite a few) of the people who fuel the divides between us know this.
You're doing very well. Now follow this train of thought to the logical conclusion of why this happens. I know you can do it!

[AcesandEights]

You're doing very well. Now follow this train of thought to the logical conclusion of why this happens. I know you can do it!

I've aired my thoughts as to why several times already in many, many a political clam bake gone awry.

[DubiousComforts]

I've aired my thoughts as to why several times already in many, many a political clam bake gone awry.
Then it wouldn't hurt to do so once again because obviously some people just don't get it.

And once they get it, then we can all move it on. OH, PLEASE!

[Mike70]

the people who consider tim mcveigh to be a hero are despicable scumbags - every single one of them, period.

let's see, this "hero's" victims ranged in age from 3 months to 75 years and included the unborn children of 3 of the victims. 19 of the victims were children, 15 of which were guilty of nothing more than being at their daycare.

people who plant bombs in front of buildings where they know there are young children are not heroes. you would have to be terribly warped to think this guy was anything other than a mammoth piece of shit.

[Skippy911sc]

the people who consider tim mcveigh to be a hero are despicable scumbags - every single one of them, period.

let's see, this "hero's" victims ranged in age from 3 months to 75 years and included the unborn children of 3 of the victims. 19 of the victims were children, 15 of which were guilty of nothing more than being at their daycare.

people who plant bombs in front of buildings where they know there are young children are not heroes. you would have to be terribly warped to think this guy was anything other than a mammoth piece of shit.

I agree with ya on this one. I think earlier in the thread people were discussing as to why this type of thing occurs...why do people get like this...why?

I know for certain that the media plays an important role in this fear. When I think about this as a precursor for activities mentioned in the CNN article or video I start to contemplate who the real terrorists are.

I looked up the definition of terrorist and it is defined as: terrorist (a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities.

When I read that I think of the media figures who are scaring the crap out of people... telling them that the government is taking their freedom away, that if we pass healthcare reform it will be Armageddon... really HC is Armageddon? (isn't Armageddon a place anyway?).

Who are the terrorists? The idiots who think the world is coming to an end or the people who are telling them it is?

My wife's grandmother is one of these people who think, from watching TV, that world is at end times... WTF! I keep telling here to stop watching the TV that it is rotting her brain... she tells me that she will pray for us all. CRAZY!

I heard someone say that every ten or so years people start think it is the end of times, and it has been that way for hundreds of years. The difference this time is you have media personalities and politicians saying it as well.

I was not going to enter into this fray, because of the way other threads had gone, but it seems that we actually can have a reasonable discussion from time to time. I only hope it stays that way.

[Mike70]

I know for certain that the media plays an important role in this fear. When I think about this as a precursor for activities mentioned in the CNN article or video I start to contemplate who the real terrorists are.

I looked up the definition of terrorist and it is defined as: terrorist (a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells; often uses religion as a cover for terrorist activities.

When I read that I think of the media figures who are scaring the crap out of people... telling them that the government is taking their freedom away, that if we pass healthcare reform it will be Armageddon... really HC is Armageddon? (isn't Armageddon a place anyway?).

Who are the terrorists? The idiots who think the world is coming to an end or the people who are telling them it is?

My wife's grandmother is one of these people who think, from watching TV, that world is at end times... WTF! I keep telling here to stop watching the TV that it is rotting her brain... she tells me that she will pray for us all. CRAZY!

I heard someone say that every ten or so years people start think it is the end of times, and it has been that way for hundreds of years. The difference this time is you have media personalities and politicians saying it as well.

I was not going to enter into this fray, because of the way other threads had gone, but it seems that we actually can have a reasonable discussion from time to time. I only hope it stays that way.

undoubtedly the morons on tv and (worse) the radio are not doing anything constructive. i fail to see and by that i mean i utterly fail to see, why anyone with half a brain would listen to talk radio. that whole genre seems to be designed for fools by other fools. why the hell does anyone give a shit what rush limbaugh's (or any other radio/tv talking head) opinion is on something. i don't get it.

on another note: i frankly don't give a shit what political bug a person has up their ass. killing other people and justifying it in the "name" of politics makes one a complete and total piece of trash.

[Arcades057]

Sorry, lost my internet for a day or so there...


So you would defend Timmothy Mcvay and his anti government stance? The Religious wacko's at Waco? The Unibomber then? Any other domestic terrorist's you support? How about that guy who rammed a plane into an IRS building?

You're not stupid enough to actually believe that so I'll say nothing other than that.



There exists no difference between those with the anti government sentiment they displayed and these guys. Worse even these guys are religious fundamentalists to the 10th power. Praising about the end times, confused and willing to kill for a religion (with the exception of Waco those guys were religious nutters too)

The differences are striking. 1st: McVeigh actually did something; these people, as far as I know, have done nothing besides plan for the coming of the antichrist. Crazy? You bet. Illegal? Not a chance. To equate those with anti-government sentiment to McVeigh is childish and assinine. I am anti-big government; does that mean that I'm just like McVeigh?


Explain to me how you can defend ramming a plane into a building because you're too stupid to do your own taxes. Explain how you can defend Waco's madness. Better yet make me understand how you can defend the same type of people that blew up a truck in Oklahoma city and killed hundreds of innocent Americans.

You're using a tactic of the left on me and I'm not an idiot. Explain to me how you support the killing of innocent children through abortion, yet support the rights of murderers and rapists? Explain to me how you support the theft of private individuals to pay for those who choose not to work?

See how easy it is to come up with ridiculous accusations?


If those attacks were stopped before they happened, would you be defending them?

If proof comes out that they were planning attacks (actual proof enough for the individuals charged in the case to do time FOR those charges and not some BS like weapons violations) then I will agree they were terrorists and should be punished to the full extent of the law.


Terrorism is terrorism and if enough proof is gathered to stop an attack before hand.. Then better.

Have to find proof? their video's and documentation on the site is more then enough to shut them down.

Free speech is free speech and (para)military training is not enough to convict someone of terrorism. Again, the fact that only the 4th charge against them is the one which hit the presses is troubling for those who have been following the story since the Fed locked down neighborhoods, pointed guns at people in the area, ordered uninvolved parties to remain in doors, and brought in heavy equipment to raid homes of private individuals. Just because it's "your" guy doing the raids doesn't make it right.


Well Arc I would rather have these scum judged by 12 then their victims carried by six.

Again, IF they committed a crime, an actual crime, then I agree. Remember: When others on the right at this site condemned the Fort Hood shooter as a terrorist--rightfully so, as we found out--I withheld my judgment until the facts came out. My entire point here is that the facts, not the blurbs in the news, prove that there is far more to this story than the media has released. Unfortunately even Fox falls into this category this time.


I'm not going to sling personal insults at you, this isn't the old HPOTD forum. Grow up

Nor have I. And you telling me to grow up is, of course, in no way a personal attack, so I'll just ignore it.

[darth los]

They're officially terrorists:

Not guilty pleas have been entered in Michigan on behalf of eight of nine members of a Christian militia that prosecutors claim plotted to kill police officers and kick-start a violent revolution.


The group was preparing to carry out an attack sometime in April, prosecutors said, after months of paramilitary training that began in 2008 and included learning how to shoot guns and make bombs. Authorities seized guns in the raids but would not say whether they found explosives.

I know, i know. Innocent until proven guilty. :rolleyes:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36113919/ns/us_news-security/

:cool:

[Arcades057]

The group was preparing to carry out an attack sometime in April, prosecutors said, after months of paramilitary training that began in 2008 and included learning how to shoot guns and make bombs. Authorities seized guns in the raids but would not say whether they found explosives.

That means that no, they found no bombs.

And yes, innocent until proven guilty OF the crime they are accused of. I will bet dollars to donuts that no terrorism-related charges come of this and the individuals wind up with weapons violations. Kind of like how the Ruby Ridge fiasco was over a sawed-off shotgun and the Fed was sued by Randy Weaver and Weaver won his suit for the wrongful death of his wife, who was shot holding an infant. Kind of like how, on the one hand, the killing of somewhere around 50-60 children at Waco is celebrated, yet the killing of 15-20 children in Oklahoma City is not.

In other words, I withhold my judgment, as I did in the Fort Hood case, until they are proven guilty OF the crime they supposedly planned to perpetrate. Some on here were far too quick to jump into the terrorist boat about Major Hassan; I was proven wrong, in that he was indeed a terrorist. Maybe I'll be proven wrong here, too, but I think that with all the story changes by the federal government there is FAR more to this story than meets the eye.

But, then again they're right-wingers, so I expected most of you to be lining up in the "BURN THE WITCH!" line the moment I first heard about this.

[Exatreides]

Yes they are right wingers arn't they?

Speaking of Ruby Ridge

From CNN's updated article
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/31/michigan.militia.hutaree/index.html?hpt=T1
Speaking of Ruby Ridge

Disappointed, David Stone Sr. decided to read the speech he had prepared to deliver at the meeting to those who were in the van. The undercover agent recorded the speech, and the government on Wednesday played in court what it said was a copy of the recording.
"America is the land of the free, but every day we see another Ruby Ridge," the speaker in the recording said, referring to the Idaho site of a 1992 confrontation between federal agents and the Randy Weaver family. "They see us as little people; we need to stand up and say 'No.' "
The speaker added that the Hutaree "will fight along anyone who sees the New World Order as the enemy."

Killing police officers wives and children

The prosecutor also said militia members talked about burning the homes of the "brotherhood" -- or law enforcement officers -- and would shoot officers as they left their houses. Women and children of law enforcement officers were considered "equal targets," Waterstreet said.
Much of the training allegedly involved making trip wires, developing explosives and discussing the possibility of building armor-penetrating IEDs.
They had made bombs, and were in the process of adding Shrapnel to them

The only bombs built by the defendants were apparently made from cardboard tubes containing explosive material -- no shrapnel -- and used in demonstrations and training, Waterstreet said, citing videos.
The bombs were built by following directions found on the Internet, Waterstreet said. The idea was to cut metal street signs and use the pieces for shrapnel, he said. During the execution of the search warrant, some street signs were confiscated from David Stone's car, but they were not cut, the government said.
Was planning to make C4 plastic explosive

At another point, Sickles told the undercover agent he was planning to make the plastic explosive C-4, but Sickles then incorrectly described his plans to make it, Waterstreet said.

The nine have been charged with seditious conspiracy, attempted use of weapons of mass destruction, teaching the use of explosive materials and possessing a firearm during a crime of violence.

[Arcades057]

I say again, once they are convicted OF the crime they are charged with, then I'll hop on the condemnation bandwagon. Until then it's all so much hot air.

And I remind you of something else. Maybe you remember a post I made on theMountaintop a couple years back in regards to a book I was writing? In the post I explained, in very vivid detail, a terrorist act carried out by fictional characters in that book; I was asked to remove the post by either Dave or Shannon because it could be construed as advocating terrorism or giving ideas to terrorists. Now imagine someone seeing that post, who knows me in person, and whom I have shared some of my crazier ideas with. Would I look a bit odd? Definitely. Would I look dangerous? Possibly.

This may be going out on one hell of a limb, but from reading that article I don't see a group of battle-ready terrorists about to kill cops, I see a handful of lonely people who feel put upon by the actions of their government and are bitching to one another about it. Remember: Nothing was done; no crime was committed, unless they actually did recover bombs in which case they're up shit's creek, sans paddle.

And, once more, if they ARE convicted, or if the evidence is clear that they were planning, not just bloviating about, an act of terror against police, then fuck these guys, and that chick, in the ass with a police baton.

[Exatreides]

Writing a story about fictional characters doing terrorist things is different (Turner diaries anyone?) Then having actual guns and bombs and bunkers and plans established.

These people had built bombs, were building bombs, trying to learn how to build better bombs.


If they are found innocent, then props to them. Until then, in my mind at least they are in the same league as Timothy Mcvay, that nutter who flew into an IRS building, and all the others domestic terrorists.

[Publius]

These people had built bombs, were building bombs, trying to learn how to build better bombs.

As far as I have read, the only bombs they had actually built or were building were shotgun shells filled with gunpowder, used as "landmine simulators" for training. Glorified M80s, basically. Illegal but I'll wager many among us has done as much if not worse. If the evidence bears out the more serious allegations, though, I hope they get the proverbial book thrown at them.

[DubiousComforts]

But, then again they're right-wingers, so I expected most of you to be lining up in the "BURN THE WITCH!" line the moment I first heard about this.
Ain't nothing quite like low expectations to make one's day.

Actually, the suspects are Christian right-wingers, so you can fully expect them to cry "BURN THE WITCH!" first.


Illegal but I'll wager many among us has done as much if not worse.
Yeah, I make explosives everyday. It's part of my daily routine.

WTF?!

[Publius]

Yeah, I make explosives everyday. It's part of my daily routine.

WTF?!

Ever use an M-80 or cherry bomb? I knew kids who made their own firecrackers using instructions in old children's books that, in retrospect, were violations of federal law. That's basically what we're talking about here. Pyrotechnic devices with more powder than is allowed by law. Though there certainly may be more revelations to come.

[Exatreides]

Kids making them for fun...

is different then making them to kill police and their families. Not to mention he was looking to create c4 and had signs in his car to cut up to create shrapnel to add to bombs with

[DubiousComforts]

Ever use an M-80 or cherry bomb?
My friends and I shot off some cherry bombs maybe 35 years ago. We did this in a friend's backyard during July 4th season for the purpose of having some fun during summer vacation, not to train in anti-government militia maneuvers and we certainly didn't make the fireworks ourselves.

Normal people just do not do this sort of thing regardless of their beef with the current administration.

[Arcades057]

Kids making them for fun...

is different then allegedly making them to kill police and their families. Not to mention he was looking to create c4 and had signs in his car to cut up to create shrapnel to add to bombs with

Fixed it for you

So says an informant placed into the group. Let's see if the evidence bears that out.


The undercover agent helped the group's members build explosives, Waterstreet said.

From your article, Exa, this part looks suspicious in a way. First it talks about how they were planning to build C4 but didn't have the recipe right; then the undercover informant "helps" the group build explosives. So, being the conspiracy nut and firm believer in the 1st Amendment that I am, I wonder how much of the talk by the militia members was harmless chatter, and how many of their actions were building, as Publius said, fireworks and such, prior to the "help" of the government informant teaching them how to build better explosives.

And, as we all know--those of us who actually pay attention to the news, rather than grabbing a blurb and taking it as the whole story--there is always more than meets the eye when the government intervenes in a government investigation to prove that a group was anti-government.

[Publius]

Kids making them for fun...

is different then making them to kill police and their families. Not to mention he was looking to create c4 and had signs in his car to cut up to create shrapnel to add to bombs with

Granted. But I wasn't talking about that. Look back at what I said in post 40. The only detailed evidence we've heard of actual bombmaking so far has dealt with pyrotechnic devices, not bombs to kill police and their families. From what I've read the guy did have some signs in his car, but they were not cut up. Did he get them to cut them up to make shrapnel? Too early to say. And from my perspective running your mouth about bogus C4 recipes is not a crime. I've downloaded my share of bogus explosive recipes (in Anarchist's Cookbook files, etc) in my day, but never did anything with them (and never intended to).

Like I said, if these guys were actually working toward a concrete plan to kill innocents, I hope they get the book thrown at them. But not a lot of evidence has been put forth yet.