The 'Collateral Damage' video...

[Neil]

Chilling how people viewing other human beings through a video monitor can get so blazay about letting someone live, or deciding they should instead should die...

"All right... Ha ha... I hit him..."

"Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards."

"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle."

"Look, right through the wind shield... ha ha...."

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2010/04/05-6 (Not nice viewing...)

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In one part one of the helicopter pilots declares "Yeh, we had a guy shooting"... That's very confusing?!

[Legion2213]

What do we really expect these young men to say when their job is to kill other human beings? Why are we shocked that when we send young men to kill others and they end up desensitzsed to it?

It's easy to wax lyrical and make judgements about the rights and wrongs of these things from the cosy safety of our computer desks...not so easy for the young folks who are out there fighting and dying in our name.

[AcesandEights]

What do we really expect these young men to say when their job is to kill other human beings? Why are we shocked that when we send young men to kill others and they end up desensitzsed to it?

It's easy to wax lyrical and make judgements about the rights and wrongs of these things from the cosy safety of our computer desks...not so easy for the young folks who are out there fighting and dying in our name.

I agree, for the most part. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it seems like the reality of the situation. A pretty fucked up situation? Sure, but I imagine it's a pretty hard thing to draw a healthy distinction for all life when you're a kid put in harm's way and asked to kill people, most of whom would otherwise kill you if they had the chance.

[Neil]

What do we really expect these young men to say when their job is to kill other human beings? Why are we shocked that when we send young men to kill others and they end up desensitzsed to it?

It's easy to wax lyrical and make judgements about the rights and wrongs of these things from the cosy safety of our computer desks...not so easy for the young folks who are out there fighting and dying in our name.

I agree, they can't afford to not be desensitized to it... But that said, I still find the footage appalling at how easily that fire button is repeatedly pressed with actually no real evidence that the people under the crosshair 'deserved it'...

These are innocent people we are witnessing being killed, in reality due to poor intelligence and poor processes... If in doubt DO NOT FIRE surely? If in doubt get BETTER INTELLIGENCE surely? But the video makes it appear quite the opposite... "Ha ha... I hit him..."

[bassman]

It's unfortunate that these people died and the kids were wounded, but is this not how it's been with every war in history? Shoot first, ask questions later. I'm not saying it's a good thing or that I would approve of it, but it seems to be the case in all war zones.

Besides....these photographers and journalists knew the area they were in. They knew the risk. And the "he shouldn't have brought his kids into battle" is absolutely true. The soldier saying it sounds a bit on the un-caring side, but in the grand scheme of things the father was a moron for driving into that area with his children. I know that if I saw all that gun fire, the last thing I would do would be to drive into it all with my children.

I'm not trying to downplay the loss of these innocent people, but after all it is war and they were right in the middle of it.

[Legion2213]

Not firing when in doubt can get you or your mates killed though.

I know the video isn't pleasant viewing but the guys out there don't have the luxury of hindsight and hours and hours to review the video like we do...doubts can get these guys killed on the battlefield (and the guys relying on them for top-cover), and I believe we should support them 100% except in the most obvious cases of genuine pre-meditated abuse/murder.

And is "ha ha I hit him" really any different to WWII pilots shouting "tally ho" whilst killing other people? We have to remember that as far as the pilots are concerned (without hindsight), those guys are the enemy who have killed their mates, the guys who plant IED's and the like.

I feel really sorry for all the coalition forces out there in these war zones, they have do stuff that we would never do, and we should thank them for it, they are the reason we don't have conscription.

[EvilNed]

I agree with most of the views here that war is war. It's war that we hate, not the soldiers in it. I'd imagine you'd go crazy if you went into a warzone and didn't put up some sort of mental blockade between you and what you're actually doing (KILLING people).

The scary thing about this video isn't what happens in it, but rather that it took it 2-3 years to reach us.

[Neil]

It's unfortunate that these people died and the kids were wounded, but is this not how it's been with every war in history? Shoot first, ask questions later. I'm not saying it's a good thing or that I would approve of it, but it seems to be the case in all war zones.

Besides....these photographers and journalists knew the area they were in. They knew the risk. And the "he shouldn't have brought his kids into battle" is absolutely true. The soldier saying it sounds a bit on the un-caring side, but in the grand scheme of things the father was a moron for driving into that area with his children. I know that if I saw all that gun fire, the last thing I would do would be to drive into it all with my children.

I'm not trying to downplay the loss of these innocent people, but after all it is war and they were right in the middle of it.

Difficult! But mostly saddening!

I do see a serious issue with the shooting of that people-carrier though, which was clearly offering no threat and of which they had no idea of its intent other than possibly trying to save some people... Just came across that they were eager to try and shoot more people TBH...

[bassman]

I do see a serious issue with the shooting of that people-carrier though, which was clearly offering no threat and of which they had no idea of its intent other than possibly trying to save some people... Just came across that they were eager to try and shoot more people TBH...

The way I took it is that the soldiers were concerned with the way the van swooped in there so quickly to gather up the wounded/dead. When that happened they probably started thinking that perhaps they had hit someone of interest and the van was coming in quickly to retrieve the body before the US forces could investigate. Either that or maybe they were concerned that the van would retrieve important information or weapons from the bodies and take off?

I think they had their reasons even if it was a guessing game. It wasn't just "OHHHH....TARGET PRACTICE!"

[Neil]

The way I took it is that the soldiers were concerned with the way the van swooped in there so quickly to gather up the wounded/dead. When that happened they probably started thinking that perhaps they had hit someone of interest and the van was coming in quickly to retrieve the body before the US forces could investigate. Either that or maybe they were concerned that the van would retrieve important information or weapons from the bodies and take off?

I think they had their reasons even if it was a guessing game. It wasn't just "OHHHH....TARGET PRACTICE!"

If, maybe, possibly, could be... Seems perfectly good reasons to kill some more people don't you think?

An of course it wasn't "OHHHH.... TARGET PRACTIVE!"... It was more like "Oh yeah, look at those dead bastards."

[bassman]

If, maybe, possibly, could be... Seems perfectly good reasons to kill some more people don't you think?


As said before in this thread - That's war. Shoot first ask questions later. Kill or be killed. Even if not in direct danger, those people down there could have later planted a bomb that would kill 10 of our soldiers. It's sad that it's like this, but it is war. Casualties will happen even with the greatest of planning and strategies.

Look...I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with what happened, but we can't put ourselves in their shoes from behind a monitor with limitless time to evaluate the video. They have a few seconds to make a decision and have it passed down the line. Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. It's a shame but it is part of it.

[Neil]

As said before in this thread - That's war. Shoot first ask questions later. Kill or be killed. Even if not in direct danger, those people down there could have later planted a bomb that would kill 10 of our soldiers. It's sad that it's like this, but it is war. Casualties will happen even with the greatest of planning and strategies.

Look...I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with what happened, but we can't put ourselves in their shoes from behind a monitor with limitless time to evaluate the video. They have a few seconds to make a decision and have it passed down the line. Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. It's a shame but it is part of it.

Still don't agree... Again, they had NO idea as to the identity or goals of the individuals with in the van... They were obviously pre-occupied with saving individuals rather than collecting AK47s or RPGs. For all the pilots knew these were simply passers by or even medical staff at hand...

Yet, with no threat to anyone, they opened fire again, with nothing short of a "yehaaaw!"

And let's remember, the attitude of these pilots it was taints this footage the most. Accidents happen, but these pilots sound like 13yrs olds on an XBox, and not methodical level headed individuals attempting to do what's best and most logical.