Chimps face death in humanlike ways

[darth los]

Neil just posted a thread about dealing with death. Stumbling across this was purely coincidental but man, to quote rhodes this is "some shit that blew my socks off."

So... I thought it deserved it's own thread.

If this is true how could people actually kill these things. It makes me question the whole humans are the masters of the earth thing and everything has to fall in line with our needs and desires.

All I could say when I finished reading was "holy shit."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36783026/ns/technology_and_science-science/

:cool:

[LoSTBoY]

Yeah I read something in the metro about this this morning.

Here is a link to the article, the picture of all the Chimpanzees gathered around staring at their dead companion is moving.

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/823470-chimpanzees-grieve-for-their-dead-like-humans

[Neil]

Yeh! I spotted the same story on the BBC too... Quite moving really...


Staff at Blair Drummond Safari and Adventure Park in Stirlingshire used video cameras to document the death of a terminally ill female named Pansy, believed to be more than 50 years old.

When she became lethargic in the days leading up to her death, other members of the group became quieter than usual and stayed with her at nights, grooming her more than they did normally.

After her death, her daughter stayed near the body for an entire night, even though she had never slept on that platform before.

All of the group were subdued for several days afterwards, and avoided the place where she had died, spending long hours grooming each other.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8645283.stm

[Terran]

Elephants show similar "human" characteristics but since their appearance is so different the correlations towards intelligence are not always made.



When a member of an elephant herd dies, the other elephants will gather around and touch the body with their trunks. They will watch over the body and make mournful-sounding noises for several days, only leaving the deceased for food. Strangely, elephants perform the same act of ritual mourning for humans as well.

When people joke that an elephant never forgets, they probably don't realize the extent of an elephant's memory. Elephants are migratory animals, walking hundred of miles of grassland every year. When an elephant herd walks over a spot in which a family member died, they will collectively pause and exhibit signs of mourning. When there are bones left, they will also touch the bones with their trunks.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/805527/elephant_intelligence_why_elephants.html?cat=47
3 pages of stuff this quote taken from the 1st page

There are tons of other examples of elephants doing all sorts of "human" behaviors...Just give it a search...Wiki seems to have a decent collection of stories

Heres a pdf of a paper titled "Do Elephants Show Empathy"
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sp/people/personal/rwb/publications/2008%20Bates%20et%20al%20JCS.pdf

[SymphonicX]

amazing facts there.

I have never bought into this "dominion over the animals" stance that we have as humans - its completely disrespectful and destructive. We are so insignificant, I love the way we talk about saving the planet - nah - the planet will survive, we won't, but the planet will carry on regardless...sorry, a digression but it has sparked a thought in me about our attitudes to using animals and resources as though we're entitled to it, when it's patently obvious that unfortunately we're at the beck and call of the planet, not the other way around...

[Neil]

Elephants show similar "human" characteristics but since their appearance is so different the correlations towards intelligence are not always made.


http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/805527/elephant_intelligence_why_elephants.html?cat=47
3 pages of stuff this quote taken from the 1st page

There are tons of other examples of elephants doing all sorts of "human" behaviors...Just give it a search...Wiki seems to have a decent collection of stories

Heres a pdf of a paper titled "Do Elephants Show Empathy"
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sp/people/personal/rwb/publications/2008%20Bates%20et%20al%20JCS.pdf

Amazing really isn't it!

[Terran]

Well that depends on what your definition of is, is....

When I was taking Undergrad classes in Neuroscience I always paid a bit more attention when the discussion turned towards other animal's brain structure and their resulting functions. Without getting in to to-much detail some animals have achieved similiar levels of intelligence utilizing different brain organizations (different neural connections). LIke the Grey Parrot.


Dr. Irene Pepperberg's extensive research with captive African greys, famously with a bird named Alex, has scientifically demonstrated that they possess the ability to associate human words with meanings, and to intelligently apply the abstract concepts of shape, colour, number, zero-sense, etc. According to Pepperberg and others, they perform many cognitive tasks at the level of dolphins, chimpanzees, and even a human toddler
One exceptionally talented African Grey is N'kisi, who in 2004 already was said to have a vocabulary of over 900 words and was noted for creative use of language, as had been Alex. For example, when Jane Goodall visited N'kisi in his New York home, he greeted her with "Got a chimp?" as he'd seen pictures of her with chimpanzees in Africa. His voice sounds so near to a human's that a conversation between him and his owner seems to be a chat between two women.

Heres information about the significance of "zero-sense or zero concept"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8513299/

A parrot has grasped the concept of zero, something humans can't do until at least the toddler phase, researchers say.

Alex, a 28-year-old African gray parrot who lives in a lab at Brandeis University in Massachusetts, has a brain the size of a walnut. But when confronted with no items on a tray where usually there are some, he says "none."

Zero is thought to be a rather abstract concept even for people. Children typically don't grasp it until age 3 or 4, Brandeis researchers say. Some ancient cultures lacked a formal term for zilch, even as recently as the Middle Ages.


It is interesting and fun to group the animals that possess near human capabilities in terms of intelligence........not a ranking just an abstract list

The Great Apes or Hominidae (chimpanzees, gorillas, humans, and orangutans.)
The Cetacea (whales, dolphins, and porpoises)
Parrots (specifically the The African Grey Parrot, though some other large Parrots in this group seem to exhibit similar intelligence).
The Elephantidae (two genera African elephants and Asian elephants).



Hmm off the top of my head I cant think of others....
But for comparison somewhere below these groups you get things like

Dogs/Pigs....(though they move up given more research into how they express certain things)
Monkeys (different group from great apes)
Cats
Ravens/Crows.

Now I have always had a liking for Invertebrates because their nervous system is fundamentally different from that of vertebrates. The most intelligent of the group seems to be Cephalopods (octopus, squid, and cuttlefish). As it stands now, their intelligence is often compared to that of household cats.

[darth los]

amazing facts there.

I have never bought into this "dominion over the animals" stance that we have as humans - its completely disrespectful and destructive. We are so insignificant, I love the way we talk about saving the planet - nah - the planet will survive, we won't, but the planet will carry on regardless...sorry, a digression but it has sparked a thought in me about our attitudes to using animals and resources as though we're entitled to it, when it's patently obvious that unfortunately we're at the beck and call of the planet, not the other way around...


Man's arrogance is what is going to do him in. We have no respect for the enviroment or other species at all ass long as it means we are comfortable.


Bill mahr made a comment one time, it went something like. " If we could solve global warming by simply everyone on the planet giving up their remote controls, Most people would say "fuck that, find another way."

And as a student of human nature the scariest thing about that is it's true.

:cool:

[SymphonicX]

Man's arrogance is what is going to do him in. We have no respect for the enviroment or other species at all ass long as it means we are comfortable.


Bill mahr made a comment one time, it went something like. " If we could solve global warming by simply everyone on the planet giving up their remote controls, Most people would say "fuck that, find another way."

And as a student of human nature the scariest thing about that is it's true.

:cool:

Its amazing how that works actually - I see it first hand - even with two bins for recycling most people will use whatever's 2 inches closer to them regardless.

We're so inately lazy and territorial and sick that to be honest I think the planet is far better off without us.

[darth los]

Its amazing how that works actually - I see it first hand - even with two bins for recycling most people will use whatever's 2 inches closer to them regardless.

We're so inately lazy and territorial and sick that to be honest I think the planet is far better off without us.

That's a true statement no matter how morbid it may be.

It's been my life experience up until this point that people will work only as hard as they have to.

:cool:

[SymphonicX]

That's a true statement no matter how morbid it may be.

It's been my life experience up until this point that people will work only as hard as they have to.

:cool:

yeah its the bare minimum, instant gratification element of humanity - I wonder if people thought the same thing 500 years ago....or is any accepted norm just that, a norm, therefore we're always looking for more but incurring less cost due to us constantly seeking the easy way out?

Where's my iphone? :D

[AcesandEights]

I don't know, guys. You're both sounding a bit mawkish.

I can't tell whether you're saying people are just animals (hence not evil incarnate, not out of step with nature because we exploit it and are, in fact, in touch with nature for following our imperfect routines and survival mechanisms), or you feel humanity is somehow capable of more. Or is it somewhere in between for you guys?

I know it's a tragedy that human beings are self-actualizing and we still continue to, by dint of the tragedy of the commons and other self-concerned behaviors, sow so much destruction <insert T2 like image of two children fighting>, but do either of you think enough individuals or even the race, as a whole, can change that?

I think individuals can change their behavior within reason, as long as it does not run contra to what that person perceives as their potential (i.e. the true personal goals of that individual) and that people can learn new ways to meet their goals or grow so that their goals change, but humanity is too diverse in how it goes about self-fulfillment and survival to ever break that cycle completely; there will always be someone who picks up a rock and breaks it over some other dude's head and then goes all rapine on the land and resources.

[darth los]

Of corse we are capable of more but 90% of humanity are satisfied with just getting by, or as you say the bare minimum.


I don't know if I've ever thrown out this scenario to you guys but here goes:

Place a reasonably large enough group of infants on an island, (Just for arguments sake overlook how they would be cared for because that's not the point of the question) with no outside influence or adults to influence the nurture aspect of their development.


How long, if at all do you guys think it would take these kids to exhibit the ugly side of humanity, you know, the seven deadly sins and ten commandments type stuff?

I am of the mind that it wouldn't take long at all. You can see the selfishness and nastiness in a two year old. It is only whe adult teaches them that it's not the way to do things is when they change that behavior.

Also, the true state of things is anarchy. However, we quickly learn that it is more beneficial to us to work together and be civilized. We realize that without civility life would be brutish and short.

Frankenstien hit it on the head:

"Civility must be rewarded, if not there's just no use for it, there's no use for it at all."

Truer words were never spoken. Remember when GAr would drop jewels like that on us?

:cool:

[SymphonicX]

well if you think about it nature is pure anarchy that's managed to strike a very intricate balance - however with us at the top of the food chain we're not part of any balance so find the dip between pure anarchy (ie war) and peace is very contrasting.

A lions life, for instance, is purely chaotic - however with the lion's hunting sense and instincts it becomes more balanced - for us it's a differnt story of balancing our environment with danger and the will to survive.

As for the overall change to the world re: aces post - I've always maintained that the way we change the world is to bring up our children with no concept of the things which have dogged and destroyed humanity since time in memoriam. For instance I'm not bringing up my child with a concept of racism - sure he/she will learn about different cultures but the focus will be to celebrate our differences rather than ignore or hate them. He/she will also know that racism exists however they won't be introduced to the concept "the hard way" ie: (subconciously) through his/her parents using racist language or discriminating or making passive aggressive comments about cultural divides.

So that's my concept on it, it's purely the way you bring your child up to handle the positive and negative aspects of life on earth - teach them through knowledge not through actions....

[darth los]

So john was really onto something in day, huh?

I know it's a digression from the topic but again, it's unfathomable to me how GAr was capable of such brilliance at one point and now gives us the drivel we've been seeing.

:cool:

[Terran]

Typically when talking about "Intelligence" we are referring to what is learned behavior and what is instinctual behavior.

Examples of animals that are "pure instinct":
A spider is born with practically all of its behavior hardwired.
A snake will have the vast majority of its behavior predetermined by its prebirth development (genentic and epigenic).


Animals that we consider intelligent have some proportion of their behavior that are learned and some proportion that is instinctual.

Chimpanzee learn the majority of their behavior when very young. Baby chimps will learn things like fishing for termites with long blades of grass or breaking walnuts with rocks from others in the group. Or pushing buttons on a computer screen for particular types of treats. Adult chimpanzee's without this early exposure are apparently incapable of learning these behaviors.

Similarly Orca groups will have specializations that differ from other groups of identical species. Some hunt fish, some hunt squid, some hunt seals, some hunt dolphins, some hunt other types of Orca. The strategies and prey sources are learnt behavior. This learnt behavior in many ways creates a "society" and this "society" functions in passing down this learned behavior.


I do not consider humans as being any different from these other intelligent animals or non intelligent animals for that matter.
Being an animal that has a considerably larger capacity for learned behavior has allowed us to establish a global community by putting ourselves at the top of every food chain...

Every animal spreads and capitalizes on every resource it is capable of exploiting. The ability to learn/mimic such a huge number of behaviors has a allowed humans to exploit many resources.
This brings up the "Fish Tank Scenario":



Put some guppies in a large fish tank and they will breed until their numbers are so great that they become more aggressive, starved, and cannibalistic. The population maintains though because their is enough regrowing algae and various microscopic animals to support the survivors of the population booms.

Now put some larger predatory fish in this tank and it will eat until its full, it will reproduce and its young will eat until they are full. They will eat until their are no more guppies left in the tank to eat and then all the predatory fish starve out. No more fish will be left in the tank.

Humans are like a fish in a very large bowl...our current model of society will cause many animals extinction perhaps even our own.