monroeville strategy.....

[acealive1]

ok so i've been to the mall before (october 2009) and i've noticed this. its WAY too tucked into the mountains and secluded for that biker gang to have found it. in the event of a real zed break, they probably would get no further than the primanti bros spot a quarter mile away :lol:


theres just too much ground to cover coming from the front or back for them to get that close to the mall, at least in 2010. i just know for a fact, they'd be chopped liver before they rode to the part where you drive through that large mirrored building and come to the stone wall at the monroeville parking lot.


thoughts?

[bassman]

"We've got to stay in the sticks!"

The heroes knew it, so maybe the bikers did as well. Then as they were avoiding the larger cities they stumbled upon the mall.

[acealive1]

"We've got to stay in the sticks!"

The heroes knew it, so maybe the bikers did as well. Then as they were avoiding the larger cities they stumbled upon the mall.



very true,but have u taken the trip to monroeville from pittsburgh? it involves going up a mountain for about 25 minutes then another 10 minutes of small town driving and turning onto blind streets. its gotta be a small miracle they found it

[Publius]

very true,but have u taken the trip to monroeville from pittsburgh? it involves going up a mountain for about 25 minutes then another 10 minutes of small town driving and turning onto blind streets. its gotta be a small miracle they found it

Why would anyone ever put a shopping mall in a location like that?

[acealive1]

Why would anyone ever put a shopping mall in a location like that?



its pennsylvania. i swear they didnt bother to blast enough for it to be flat land. its all mountains.

[SRP76]

They'd find it easily enough. The helicopter can be seen (not to mention heard, in a dead world with no background noise) from several miles away when it's in flight (which it is every time Stephen takes Fran up for lessons). They just follow where it looks to be landing, and there you go. Look what we found.

[sandrock74]

They'd find it easily enough. The helicopter can be seen (not to mention heard, in a dead world with no background noise) from several miles away when it's in flight (which it is every time Stephen takes Fran up for lessons). They just follow where it looks to be landing, and there you go. Look what we found.

That's always how I saw it as the scene was played out.

[Trin]

They coulda used a phone book. Yellow Pages -> Gunshops... Monroeville Mall here we come!!

[SymphonicX]

I thought they used googlemaps or something

[SRP76]

I thought they used googlemaps or something

One more reason why we'd all croak if his happened. Without mapquest and GPS and whatnot, today's people can't find their way to their mailbox. A cross-state trek like our heroes had would be out of the question.

[SymphonicX]

lol I think we'd learn pretty quickly to drop the iphones - or at least, tell Romero that :)

[darth los]

That's always how I saw it as the scene was played out.


It's the same principle when they were fortifying the house in night. How do you expect to make all that raquet and NOT draw attention.


Speaking of which, the move to teach fran how to pilot the helicopter turned out to be a costly one. A decision which speaks to how lax they had gotten.

They obviously had considered the possibility of looters as they were in the process of clearing out the mall. To make that much noise would attract survivors in the area, which they apparently they didn't feel was a threat.

They were wrong.

:cool:

[Mr.G]

Speaking of which, the move to teach fran how to pilot the helicopter turned out to be a costly one. A decision which speaks to how lax they had gotten.


:cool:

What other options were there? Fran made a good point. If Stephen died or became too ill/hurt to operate the helicopter...they would be screwed without having someone else know how to fly it. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[acealive1]

What other options were there? Fran made a good point. If Stephen died or became too ill/hurt to operate the helicopter...they would be screwed without having someone else know how to fly it. Hindsight is always 20/20.






idk where they were looking from, but its harder than hell to see that roof let alone a chooper

[Trin]

It's the same principle when they were fortifying the house in night. How do you expect to make all that raquet and NOT draw attention.


Speaking of which, the move to teach fran how to pilot the helicopter turned out to be a costly one. A decision which speaks to how lax they had gotten.

They obviously had considered the possibility of looters as they were in the process of clearing out the mall. To make that much noise would attract survivors in the area, which they apparently they didn't feel was a threat.

They were wrong.

:cool:
The helicopter did not attract the biker gang. They were coming either way. The first time they saw the helicopter they were within line of sight of the mall. They were already right there.

I also don't buy the idea that "all that racket" would attract anything. Just how far does the sound of a truck or helicopter travel? Not very far in terms of the entire city being deserted. I can sit in my back yard and see the highway through the trees - yet I can't hear the trucks on it. Sound just doesn't travel that far.

I don't buy that the helicopter was a liability, and Fran knowing how to fly it was a major asset considering how impulsive Stephen turned out to be. Even if Stephen and Roger had lived, it still made sense to have multiple pilots if they were going to make a long haul toward anywhere.

The major draw of the mall was the gun shop. We often criticize the Dawn crew for sitting idle inside the mall when we think they should be out scouting the surroundings for supplies. The biker gang probably picked up a map and a yellow pages and was hitting every place around for guns, ammo, and other things. They probably would've gone 25 or even 50 miles out of their way to hit the mall given the gun shop within.

The only thing the Dawn crew really did wrong was attack the bikers. They built a wall to fool intruders and then didn't use it when the time came. Had they stuck to their plan Stephen would've lived. They probably would've left then anyway, since we know they were planning to, but it would've been intact and on their terms.

[Wyldwraith]

I didn't so much mind they attacked the bikers,
Just that they planned/agreed to hide, then one of em goes all lone wolf and starts a war off the cuff. If they'd AGREED to fight the bikers they probably could've driven them off. Not the most organized or disciplined bunch, so who knows how they would've reacted to a sustained outpouring of fire from defensible positions?

As it was, they were fools not to devote more energy to the inevitability of contact with hostile survivors. Two of them were SWAT for God's sake! Not the sort of men to believe in the goodness of their fellow man. Wonder what happened to that tactical mindset they cultivated for X number of years?

[childofgilead]

My biggest question is why they left anything in the gun store at all..it's not like they didn't have wheelbarrows and other things they could have carried all of it off with..

Sorry, but in that situation, helping someone who needs a hand would be one thing, like if survivors showed up at the mall in the parking lot or something, but considering the fact that I don't think the mall actually had a gun store and that it was a set, it can't have been because the owner didn't want the stock being moved..

So it's either a lack of imagination on Romero's part, or for some other reason.

[darth los]

The helicopter did not attract the biker gang. They were coming either way. The first time they saw the helicopter they were within line of sight of the mall. They were already right there.




Again we are delving into speculation here. How do you know the helicopter didn't attract them? The first we see of the bikers they were looking through the binoculars at the helicopter. How they got to that point is anyone's guess.

And the risk they took was attracting looters. They even said it. It's just like the example i gave from night. They could have either sat around and waited but left the place unfortified, or as they did, fortify the place but in the process attract exponentially more ghouls, which is exactly what happened.


How do you know it wasn't the whirly bird that attracted the bikers and in Fran's determination to show the boys "that anything they can do she can do better" wasn't a self fufilling prophecy that sealed their doom?

How do we know that they only reason anyone ever knew they were there is because they decided to give her impromptu flying lessons?

If Peter thought this was so important why didn't he want to learn as well? What if fran died during childbirth, which under the conditions as very possible,They'd be screwed anyway. He didn't seem to think it was a priority.

It was probably something they did to pacify her after the denmother speech and they didn't think they'd ever need her services in that area. So until proved otherwise, i like my theory better. :D

:cool:

[acealive1]

the only place the bikers coulda seen the roof for penny's was if they were on the top of the hill where peter and roger come from in the trucks......and since we know they didnt come that way........more or less romero used the area as he saw fit which is good,because who says he's gotta abide by the landscape, it's a movie.

[Trin]

All we see of Fran in the helicopter is her making a very shaky landing. Ask yourself these quetsions... How far was she flying away from the mall? How high was she flying? How far away would she be visible from the ground? Could someone reasonably track them back to the mall from that distance?

I will admit it is speculation, but I find it likely that the biker gang had to be within a mile or two of the mall for the helicopter to have attracted them. Further, I'd put forth that if they were that close they were going to hit it regardless.

I agree with you that the only way the bikers knew that the mall was still inhabited was due to the flying lessons, and that didn't help things one bit. But it didn't get them killed either.

I also agree that Peter didn't think it was a priority. But I think Peter was likely more comfortable on the ground. He could handle the zombies, and he could handle the trucks. Fran was in a totally different situation.

[bassman]

I agree with you that the only way the bikers knew that the mall was still inhabited was due to the flying lessons, and that didn't help things one bit.


Don't forget the trucks blocking the entrances and the dead scratching at the doors with the urge to get to their prey. Even though it isn't shown in the film, I've always thought that would be a definite "ALIVE INSIDE" banner for anyone passing by.

[darth los]

Don't forget the trucks blocking the entrances and the dead scratching at the doors with the urge to get to their prey. Even though it isn't shown in the film, I've always thought that would be a definite "ALIVE INSIDE" banner for anyone passing by.


Agreed. I also agree with trin that they were going to hit it regardless. think there's evidence to suggest that the whirly bird is the first thing they saw. As we saw when they were a ways off riding their bikes (it had to be atleast a mile) and when they used binoculars to see what was what.

"The head says to blades, yeah look, they got trucks blocking all the entrances." As if it was something he just learned and was sharing with the rest of the crew.

But knowing that they were inside effected their plans atleast a little. They were concerned about how many might be inside, thus the question, "how many you got up there anyway?"

And they decided to hit it at night precisely because there were people inside and they probably figured nighttime would be a good time to hit them. If not sleeping they definitely would not be as cognizant.

:cool:

[bassman]

"The head says to blades, yeah look, they got trucks blocking all the entrances." As if it was something he just learned and was sharing with the rest of the crew.


Immediately after the other guy decided to also share with the rest of the crew.:p "Yeah, trucks!"


And just for kicks...."You wanna see my whirlybird?!?". That one always gets me.

Here's a question for those that have visited the mall - Are there signs leading to it? I know in less populated areas around here there are street signs that lead to the malls for a few miles. "Turn here for Monroeville Mall!" - that kinda thing?

[Leo]

That's a good point, plus they probably had someone look through maps and phone books to find places of use especially if it had a gun store.

[acealive1]

All we see of Fran in the helicopter is her making a very shaky landing. Ask yourself these quetsions... How far was she flying away from the mall? How high was she flying? How far away would she be visible from the ground? Could someone reasonably track them back to the mall from that distance?

I will admit it is speculation, but I find it likely that the biker gang had to be within a mile or two of the mall for the helicopter to have attracted them. Further, I'd put forth that if they were that close they were going to hit it regardless.

I agree with you that the only way the bikers knew that the mall was still inhabited was due to the flying lessons, and that didn't help things one bit. But it didn't get them killed either.

I also agree that Peter didn't think it was a priority. But I think Peter was likely more comfortable on the ground. He could handle the zombies, and he could handle the trucks. Fran was in a totally different situation.






im talking when it was on the roof already landed.......how the hell?

[Wyldwraith]

Something else I've been wondering about,
Based on the obvious disorganization and total lack of discipline, isn't it very likely that the bikers were a collection of riff-raff that survived in ones and twos, that slowly gelled into a group around a leader able to keep them somewhat in line/on the move?

The reason I say this is look at just how wild they went once they got inside the mall. Stupid stuff like hitting zombies with pies, checking ur blood pressure via the cuff machine, and ripping off jewelry cases for ladies watches/misc. jewelry....none of these things are the marks of individuals even remotely accustomed to functioning as a unit for anything more than the crudest notion of a simple smash-n-grab. The major casualties they took to the zombies from being stupid should be enough to prove the case they weren't systematic resource-stripping the region so much as they were drifting around grabbing/poking their noses into places with stuff they might want to grab.

Looked at in this light, it's far clearer how and why things went down once the bikers hit the scene. It also explains why their response to even a half-assed attempt at mall-defense was so haphazard and inefficient. If they were veteran marauders it would've been a much different scene. Into the place-to-be-looted fast, assess what's wanted, and then portion manpower between dealing with zombies and liberating the loot.

We saw none of that.

What do you think?

[Trin]

im talking when it was on the roof already landed.......how the hell?
We posted at the same time. I was responding to darth. :)


Don't forget the trucks blocking the entrances and the dead scratching at the doors with the urge to get to their prey. Even though it isn't shown in the film, I've always thought that would be a definite "ALIVE INSIDE" banner for anyone passing by.
I figure the trucks say someone was alive inside at some point. But maybe not still alive. I gotta think that 99% of the places they hit showed signs of once having had survivors inside, with some residual defenses still evident, but I wouldn't expect they found very many actual people. Even the helicopter on top doesn't signal that people are alive inside.


What do you think?
I think the biker gang was by and large a collection of riff-raff, but at the top there were some intelligent leaders. They wouldn't have survived if the pie fighting, jewelry snatching, blood pressure cuff using crew were the cream of their crop.

I've said it before, the mall was more than a resource gathering opportunity for the bikers. It was a means to let the thugs blow off steam. For the same consumer reasons that the Dawn crew wants the mall, so do the bikers. They get to run around a mall and steal everything in sight and smash the place to bits. It's a thuggy dream come true. And it burns off some of the energy that might turn to drunken fights within the group.

You can see evidence of this. The couple of leader types are very serious. They keep watch over the whole operation as it goes down. They say things like, "Only get the stuff we need." But they also let the guys have fun and wreck the place and spoof on the zombies. And they get very serious when they recognize that there is danger about.

[acealive1]

hey no prob,trin.




i think they shoulda just boarded up that whole hallway. like at the front, not half way down. gave it a few hours and the bikers woulda been dead

[bassman]

i think they shoulda just boarded up that whole hallway. like at the front, not half way down.

Half way down? I thought it was right at the beginning of the hallway? It would have to be because they painted it to make it match the existing wall.


That makes me think of something else i've always considered. Wouldn't it have been smarter to board up the door to the stairs? I say this because anyone that would break into the mall to go searching for the occupants would probably know that there had to be a boiler room and control center. But the heroes boarded up the hallway to that area. Wouldn't that missing section throw up a red flag to any intruders?

[sandrock74]

That makes me think of something else i've always considered. Wouldn't it have been smarter to board up the door to the stairs? I say this because anyone that would break into the mall to go searching for the occupants would probably know that there had to be a boiler room and control center. But the heroes boarded up the hallway to that area. Wouldn't that missing section throw up a red flag to any intruders?

In a mall full of zombies shambling about? I wouldn't think twice about it.

[darth los]

I agree. In a scenario where one mistake means you get bitten, you have to take every preaution. i would have had barbed wire and the whole 9.


There are several examples of them becoming lax and that was one of them.

Another is not thinning out the herd outside. Each of which they had ample opportunity to do but for some reason did not.

:cool:

[acealive1]

Half way down? I thought it was right at the beginning of the hallway? It would have to be because they painted it to make it match the existing wall.


That makes me think of something else i've always considered. Wouldn't it have been smarter to board up the door to the stairs? I say this because anyone that would break into the mall to go searching for the occupants would probably know that there had to be a boiler room and control center. But the heroes boarded up the hallway to that area. Wouldn't that missing section throw up a red flag to any intruders?



its half way down a corridor, i would just boarded it up at the corner so no one knew a hall way was there.

[bassman]

Half way down the corridor? You sure about that? I'm no expert on the subject, but i'm failry certain it was at the start. You can clearly see them building the fake wall at the start of the hall. Then Peter uses his thumb to check and see if the paint matches the existing walls.

[Trin]

That makes me think of something else i've always considered. Wouldn't it have been smarter to board up the door to the stairs? I say this because anyone that would break into the mall to go searching for the occupants would probably know that there had to be a boiler room and control center. But the heroes boarded up the hallway to that area. Wouldn't that missing section throw up a red flag to any intruders?
I have to think that the door to the stairwell would not be easily disguised, which means you'd basically have a door there that was barricaded, not camoflauged. I think the intent was to mislead to keep the casual looter out - kinda an outta sight outta mind thing. If someone were looking for the boiler room/control room you gotta believe that there were plenty of external doors leading in from outside which would be easily breached by anyone with guns and crowbars.

Plus, if they boarded the stairwell door they'd be stuck in there. There was no alternate way to go around the door.

Which leads me to the question I've always had - was Fran stuck inside the apartment after they built the fake wall? I don't see a 6-9 month pregnat woman climbing up and down rope ladders and crawling through vents.

[sandrock74]

Which leads me to the question I've always had - was Fran stuck inside the apartment after they built the fake wall? I don't see a 6-9 month pregnat woman climbing up and down rope ladders and crawling through vents.

I've always wondered about that too. My guess is that she knew she was going to be cooped up for a bit once the pregnancy went along. She wouldn't have been in any kind of physical shape to do those sorts of things, especially at the 8-9 month point.

That cooped up feeling is probably what made her such an unpleasant lady towards the end (turning off the tv). Yes, she was safe from the zombies outside, but she was always staring at the same four walls day in and day out.

[acealive1]

Half way down the corridor? You sure about that? I'm no expert on the subject, but i'm failry certain it was at the start. You can clearly see them building the fake wall at the start of the hall. Then Peter uses his thumb to check and see if the paint matches the existing walls.


http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?t=15142


if ur in the mall, u see a hallway........then u go down the hallway.......then u see a set of double doors........half way down the corridor as i said

[bassman]

Ohhh....you're talking about the "hallway" that is part of the public portion of the mall. The one where the latter hangs from the vent. I was talking about the hall with the double doors that leads to the boiler room.

I see what you mean by halfway now, we were thinking of two different places.:)

[SRP76]

I say this because anyone that would break into the mall to go searching for the occupants would probably know that there had to be a boiler room and control center. But the heroes boarded up the hallway to that area. Wouldn't that missing section throw up a red flag to any intruders?

Wouldn't matter. Send all the red flags you want. Since the intruders don't have a clue where a door is "supposed to" be in the first place, what are they going to do about not finding one? Nothing, because they can't do anything about it. Maybe look confused and yell, "what the fuck, man?!" a lot. Then go about their business of looting and leaving.

[bassman]

Wouldn't matter. Send all the red flags you want. Since the intruders don't have a clue where a door is "supposed to" be in the first place, what are they going to do about not finding one? Nothing, because they can't do anything about it. Maybe look confused and yell, "what the fuck, man?!" a lot. Then go about their business of looting and leaving.

Or get the layout of the mall and see where the hall is supposed to be. Just like the one Stephen found.:p

[SRP76]

Or get the layout of the mall and see where the hall is supposed to be. Just like the one Stephen found.:p

Where are they going to do that? Stephen found a print in an area now hidden, and he likely took it with him back to the "apartment" anyway (I see no reason why he'd put it back where he found it).

Even now, the "directory" at the mall (which they probably didn't have then) isn't detailed, showing employee access. It just shows rough blocks with store names.

And then you have the fact that these jokers don't know enough not to get their blood pressure taken when ghouls are bearing down on them; architectural espionage is probably beyond their skill set.

[acealive1]

Ohhh....you're talking about the "hallway" that is part of the public portion of the mall. The one where the latter hangs from the vent. I was talking about the hall with the double doors that leads to the boiler room.

I see what you mean by halfway now, we were thinking of two different places.:)


:lol:

its ok, same book and page, different passage i guess. i just woulda made it look like there was no hallway whatsoever.