Is a Super Market a Good Place To Hide During A Zombie Apocalypse?

[Thorn]

http://www.shootforthehead.com/412-The-Best-and-Worst-Restaurants-to-Hide-From-Zombies.html

Thoughts?

[DubiousComforts]

Thoughts?
Stupid article. The author has obviously never spent a day working in fast food. It takes a great deal of energy to make that garbage edible in the first place.

A supermarket would be a great place to ransack for supplies, but a bad place to hide. How do you secure the huge glass windows?

[Thorn]

Yep, I can not imagine an easy way to secure an entire supermarket without a lot of time and a team of people working together with the proper tools at their disposal. Even if we took a lesson from Dawn and used tractor trailers that is not a foolproof plan.

[SRP76]

Out of the limited options presented here, the grocery store wins my vote.

Windows are outdated. At my local Publix chain, there are none. You've got the double sliding "in" door, and the double sliding "out" door. That's it for glass. The rest is concrete block wall.

[DubiousComforts]

Windows are outdated. At my local Publix chain, there are none. You've got the double sliding "in" door, and the double sliding "out" door. That's it for glass. The rest is concrete block wall.
Do you grocery shop at a concentration camp?

[mista_mo]

That entire website is garbage, uggh.


I imagine that you could barricade the windows with the all of the wood laying around in the form of empty pallets. Most grocery stores have a surplus of them, and it isn't hard to dismantle one with a crowbar, or even a pump or power jack, both of which are usually readily available in a grocery store.

That being said, it would usually be easier to just do as dubious says, and simply ear mark the stores for raiding. Even though you could secure a grocery store, it would be a lot of effort, especially considering that there are numerous other places that would serve as an impenetrable shelter far better than your local metro or what ever you have where you live.

[SRP76]

Do you grocery shop at a concentration camp?

Nope. The newer, windowless stores look a lot better than those old aluminum-and-glass pieces of crap.

[BillyRay]

Well, if not a large supermarket, how about a corner convenience store/bodega?

Most of them are pretty window-free. Also, many have big iron security gates for security. Possibly security cameras, too. At least a baseball bat(if not a shotgun) behind the counter.

Granted, the food at these places isn't the best. Some frozen items, useless without an oven. Chips, beer, soda, not incredibly healthy fare. You may have some fruit available at the start, but even "fresh" it's sketchy. But there's canned goods & dry goods, YOU COULS HOLD OUT FOR A COUPLE WEEKS.

And since many of these stores are on the first floor of a building with apartments above it, you could conceivably use the upstairs for cooking, sleeping & last-ditch defense of the stairwell.

[JDFP]

Using a grocery store to hide in a zombie apocolypse is a sure-fire way of getting yourself dead very quickly. It's probably the dumbest possible place you could attempt to hide in an outbreak. It will rank up there with all the dumb asses that are going to head for the mall because that's what they did in "Dawn" and it was 'cool, man!' in the film -- plus there are going to be those idiots out there that think they are the only brilliant individual with the idea of heading to the mall/grocery store.

As far as the grocery store goes: For one, every other person in the community the individual is in is going to try to go to the grocery store to attempt to obtain supplies. Most of these folks probably won't bother you as long as you don't bother them, but then you're going to have plenty of idiots that would rather shoot you for that extra box of Fruit Loops that you have. Second, with great numbers of people will come great numbers of ghouls. I'd imagine the outside of most grocery stores will look like the scene in "Dawn" where all the ghouls are walking outside the mall. Third, there are entirely too many ways in and too many exits to secure. You have to consider the loading/dock doors for the trucks in the back too. You think it would hold against thousands of ghouls pressing/pushing against it? Maybe. Why take the unnecessary risk though? Plus you'd probably go mad after awhile from all the noise.

Grocery stores would be death traps.

Ooh, post 400. Wow, I'm on here too often. :cool:

j.p.

[DubiousComforts]

Grocery stores would be death traps.

Cooper: But the grocery store is the safest place!

Ben: The grocery store is a death trap!

Somehow, I get the feeling there would be no zombie genre had the original movie attempted to make this argument.

[Trin]

I have to think that my local Sam's club (or Costco or Wal-mart Hypermart) would be a good place. All of these in my area are large brick warehouses serving as retailers. In addition to large bulk quantities of food they also have things like batteries, refrigerators, and generators. They often have gas stations nearby. They usually have some selection of hardware and tools. Most of the outer doors are garage style or metal security doors. And they have forklifts to quickly move things into place to form barricades for any doors that are vulnerable.

The main drawback is other people. You have to believe these places would be scavenged early and/or claimed. I'd expect to find someone in every community big enough to have one of these stores who is not above standing on the roof with a rifle shooting anyone who comes near.

[AcesandEights]

I have to think that my local Sam's club (or Costco or Wal-mart Hypermart) would be a good place.

Only in certain circumstances, I'd think. As you pointed out, already people are the problem. I really think those places would be magnets for rioters and looters early on and then magnets for raiders after that.

[acealive1]

regular grocery store? NO

Wal Mart? YES. by all means hole up in that place

[Thorn]

I am also fairly sure these places would be on everyone's hit list for supplies, also not many of them are located outside of areas full of people so that would mean lots of traffic both living and dead.

I think squatting in a walmart would be the best way to ensure a conflict with other survivors looters.

Plus the people that hang out in walmart or more scary than zombies!

No seriously.
http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/

[Wyldwraith]

Yea,
I can't really endorse ANY of those locations as hideouts. Also agree that site is trying to be Max Brooks-ish, but coming off fourth-rate.

A wholesale warehouse on the other hand has potential. Few people even understand how food gets to their supermarket, so other than the people who work there, they should be pretty deserted. Additionally, such buildings are generally in the industrial section of town, and for obvious reasons the industrial zoning is never placed near the residentially zoned areas by city planners. Once people stop showing up for work they'd be ghost towns, and with no people in the area, (or next to none at any rate) there'd be nothing to draw ghouls to the area.

On top of that, few warehouses are designed with ground-level windows, and all are constructed so as to be easily secured for obvious reasons. Years ago many were dumps, but these days the distribution centers for the various franchises are quite comfortable places to work. Plus, most have diesel generators to keep the deep freezes going in the event of a blackout.

In all, the only real problem I see with holing up in one of them would be getting there in the first place, and needing to acquire some necessary supplies/survival aids the distribution center doesn't offer. Weapons in particular would be needed, because eventually someone else will want to muscle in on the good thing you've got going, and for all the other reasons one requires weaponry in a zombie apocalypse.

Hitting up a Sam's Club or Costco Member's Club in a pinch wouldn't necessarily be a bad stopover. On a given day they're well-supplied with bulk foodstuffs and over the counter meds, + a pharmacy if you're lucky. They're far more likely to be pretty picked through by looters, but enough would probably remain to make a short stop profitable.

The mother lode would be one of the true Mega Malls in the style of the late 80's. There's still a few of them here and there, like Ford City/Ford City West in Chicago. Built securely, and with such a trove of supplies as to defy the ability of looters to make a serious dent in them. Too rare to go looking for these days, but if I was on the road I might look towards one I was nearing as somewhere reasonably civilized survivors might be located.

Anyways, just my .02

[Legion2213]

Good call Wyldwraith, I've always favoured hitting or even holding up in a warehouse in the event of global doom (tm).

[Andy]

In my humble opinion, in the event of a real zompocalypse, civil unrest would almost certainly occur as law and order buckles faced with the undead threat and grocery stores and supermarkets would be the first place targeted by looters.

Bad place to hide.

[Yojimbo]

I totally agree that the article is lame, the website laughably stupid, and that Costco/stores/supermarkets are the first place one would encounter legions of looters. That being said, someone recently pointed out that a supermarket chain supply warehouse might be a great place to hole up for the apocalypse. Not as obvious a target as your local Wallmart might be to your average looter but with an abundance of supplies. Giving som consideration to that might be worhwhile

[Wyldwraith]

One thing though,
If you're planning on taking over a franchise supply warehouse I would suggest getting your weapons first. Less likely/obvious a target doesn't mean there won't be ANYONE who shows up. Wouldn't be comfortable bunking down for the night on all those resources without a pistol and shotgun close at hand.

[Publius]

One thing though,
If you're planning on taking over a franchise supply warehouse I would suggest getting your weapons first. Less likely/obvious a target doesn't mean there won't be ANYONE who shows up. Wouldn't be comfortable bunking down for the night on all those resources without a pistol and shotgun close at hand.

Make sure you have plenty of backup too. The fact that it's not the most immediately obvious target just means you'll have some of the smarter and more organized people coming after you.

[acealive1]

In my humble opinion, in the event of a real zompocalypse, civil unrest would almost certainly occur as law and order buckles faced with the undead threat and grocery stores and supermarkets would be the first place targeted by looters.

Bad place to hide.



not in rural areas, thats where alot of wal mart's are here. i know of two that would be virtually untouched if this really did happen

[Publius]

not in rural areas, thats where alot of wal mart's are here. i know of two that would be virtually untouched if this really did happen

People in rural areas will have the most time to react and plan. I don't think there's any Walmart that's so remote that it won't be a target. If there was a spot remote enough, there wouldn't be a customer base for it.

[Yojimbo]

One thing though,
If you're planning on taking over a franchise supply warehouse I would suggest getting your weapons first. Less likely/obvious a target doesn't mean there won't be ANYONE who shows up. Wouldn't be comfortable bunking down for the night on all those resources without a pistol and shotgun close at hand.

Wise words & good advice as always from Wyld!

---------- Post added at 10:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------


Make sure you have plenty of backup too. The fact that it's not the most immediately obvious target just means you'll have some of the smarter and more organized people coming after you.

Point well taken, Publius. A supply warehouse is far too big to be sucessfully defended against looters by a lone wolf. Realistically, one would need a cohesive and well trained group

[acealive1]

People in rural areas will have the most time to react and plan. I don't think there's any Walmart that's so remote that it won't be a target. If there was a spot remote enough, there wouldn't be a customer base for it.


an hour from toledo is pretty remote

[krakenslayer]

an hour from toledo is pretty remote

I think what he means is, if there were so few people in the surrounding are that there were no potential raiders, then WalMart wouldn't have put a store there in the first place. They're only there because there are enough people in the surrounding area to make it worthwhile opening in that location. They do a lot of research and cost/profit calculations beforehand.

[Neil]

How do you secure the huge glass windows?
Easy... Do nothing... You could probably throw a brick and them and nothing would happen.

[acealive1]

I think what he means is, if there were so few people in the surrounding are that there were no potential raiders, then WalMart wouldn't have put a store there in the first place. They're only there because there are enough people in the surrounding area to make it worthwhile opening in that location. They do a lot of research and cost/profit calculations beforehand.



i know what he means, but the fact is that it's their end all be all store there since theres nothing else

[Andy]

Easy... Do nothing... You could probably throw a brick and them and nothing would happen.

Seconded, i worked security at a supermarket for years and i have personally seen a guy come at that glass with a baseball bat and not crack it.

[acealive1]

Seconded, i worked security at a supermarket for years and i have personally seen a guy come at that glass with a baseball bat and not crack it.


plexi glass :D

[Wyldwraith]

Relying on safety glass would be unwise,
First, the zombies can see you in there. If they can see you, hordes of them will soon be knocking on those windows. At X stress-point, that glass WILL buckle, when Y number of zombies applies Z-amount of force to said pane of safety glass by pressing their bodies against it and each other relentlessly.

It's just a matter of time and mathematics.

Now, if someone else feels comfortable betting that they won't be torn apart and devoured alive based on the strength of a pane of glass, more power to them. Me? I'll be looking for a structure with all the strong points I'd be looking for if I was sheltering from a hurricane or tornado.

Call me eccentric, but I'm just not that fond of having my intestines scooped out and slurped like spaghetti while I watch. ;)

[Tricky]

Do you grocery shop at a concentration camp?

Most supermarkets in the UK are like that, huge brick buildings with a small area of glass door with a few windows either side

http://www.dqview.com/photos/uncategorized/tesco1.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/373227010_ddc168dfc2.jpg?v=0

But, would you want to be barricaded in there when all the freezers defrost after the power goes off & all the meat & fish starts to decompose? Then again, you'd have an ample stash of toilet paper for the diarrhea you would inevitably get :lol:

[acealive1]

Relying on safety glass would be unwise,
First, the zombies can see you in there. If they can see you, hordes of them will soon be knocking on those windows. At X stress-point, that glass WILL buckle, when Y number of zombies applies Z-amount of force to said pane of safety glass by pressing their bodies against it and each other relentlessly.

It's just a matter of time and mathematics.

Now, if someone else feels comfortable betting that they won't be torn apart and devoured alive based on the strength of a pane of glass, more power to them. Me? I'll be looking for a structure with all the strong points I'd be looking for if I was sheltering from a hurricane or tornado.

Call me eccentric, but I'm just not that fond of having my intestines scooped out and slurped like spaghetti while I watch. ;)





particleboard on both sides of the windows,man. cmon now.

[Wyldwraith]

Missing the point Ace,
Anything that a humanoid who doesn't feel pain and is known to perform endlessly repetitive actions in pursuit of satisfying their single driving goal could conceivably breach, no matter how ridiculously long a time it might take to create that breach is NOT zombie-proof.

Survival situations in general are about maximizing the odds of a favorable outcome, and controlling as many of the involved variables as is feasible under the specific circumstances. Now, if you had a qualified welder and the appropriate welding equipment, an argument could be made for defending those windows, because the odds say they'd last long enough to reinforce them with criss-crossing sheets of metal bars from disassembled shopping carts (something every grocery store has in abundance).

With a supermarket you also have to worry about the residual memory issue. Tons of zombies might show up simply because going to the grocery store was part of their routine in life. If we accept residual memory as the reason they swarmed the Mall, we have to apply that reasoning to all locales that meet the same criteria.

As a rule, very few people visit distribution centers as part of their routine(s).

Another thing, almost all the distribution centers for the major grocery stores, especially in the southeastern US are now stocked with a week or two of non-perishables sufficient to feed 10k-20k people, above and beyond the regular inventory. Plus, nearly (if not all) have redundant on-site means of preventing, or at least delaying spoilage in the event of a power outage.

Combined with the low-population areas they're found in, and the inherent durability of such structures, there's simply no contest between the supermarket and the distribution center which supplies it in terms of which is the better location to shelter in.

A final bonus is all the packing/unpacking, and other industrial equipment on site. Could prove very useful in constructing barricades.

I just can't see any redeeming factors concerning sheltering in a grocery store. They're death-traps, IMHO.

[Publius]

i know what he means, but the fact is that it's their end all be all store there since theres nothing else

Right, so everyone in the area knows where it is, and every survivor will head there eventually for supplies (since there's nothing else).

[Andy]

Relying on safety glass would be unwise,
First, the zombies can see you in there. If they can see you, hordes of them will soon be knocking on those windows. At X stress-point, that glass WILL buckle, when Y number of zombies applies Z-amount of force to said pane of safety glass by pressing their bodies against it and each other relentlessly.

It's just a matter of time and mathematics.

Now, if someone else feels comfortable betting that they won't be torn apart and devoured alive based on the strength of a pane of glass, more power to them. Me? I'll be looking for a structure with all the strong points I'd be looking for if I was sheltering from a hurricane or tornado.
Call me eccentric, but I'm just not that fond of having my intestines scooped out and slurped like spaghetti while I watch. ;)

I wouldn't count on them alone but I think I could pull off a similar tactic to peter and rogers in dawn, block up the entrances with trucks and vans.

Not only not giving leverage to the zeds that are trapped between glass and vehicle but blocking other passing zeds from seeing inside.

[Eyebiter]

Supermarket is the LAST place you would want to be during a zombie incident. Think about it for a second. When a hurricane or natural disaster looms where is the FIRST PLACE that everyone goes?

Assuming the crowds don't burn the place to the ground, expect most stores to be nearly completely looted of canned goods and other non perishable foodstuffs. Don't expect a fully stocked gun store at the Super Walmart either. If your lucky there will be some useful materials left in areas people don't clear out. But having seen how people act in a looming emergency usually the crowd reponse is to go wild. Fill up the cart and escape to safety before someone else steals what's left .

[Trin]

Missing the point Ace,
Anything that a humanoid who doesn't feel pain and is known to perform endlessly repetitive actions in pursuit of satisfying their single driving goal could conceivably breach, no matter how ridiculously long a time it might take to create that breach is NOT zombie-proof.
A roof is not rain proof. We put wooden shingles on them and let the rain pound away at it day after day. Why don't we build our roof out of steel then? Because we can fix it easily enough. Same for the windows. Put up the particle board and that'll keep them out today, and tomorrow, and the next day. If a month from now they've made a dent in it... put up another sheet. If it gets really annoying then put up the welded steel.

Eventually you're gonna have to leave that place anyway as you dwindle the supplies in the area. No sense building it for a 20 year haul. It just has to be safe enough.

The fact is that no place is a hidden gem of protection plus supplies that no one knows about. You might find that the local food distributor is less mobbed than the local retail grocery or Costco - but if ONE person knows about it then others will follow. Any area large enough to have something keen like a big warehouse full of food also has a thousand people who think of going there.

Basically, the zombie scenario is one worldwide game of "king of the hill." Everyone scopes out their preferred safe place and tries to topple whoever is there. The best places will have the most contention. If you are unwilling or unable to fight then you're going to have to settle for scavenging around the edges. And if you do too well at it then guaranteed someone else is gonna come take whatever you have.

I think my plan is to hunker in my house and wait as long as possible. Hope that the larger population kills each other while I hide. Then when I need to leave I'll sneak to my neighbors house and live there a while. And I'll keep hopping from house to house until the larger facilities are all empty from everyone knocking each other off.

[Wyldwraith]

Agreed,
You can work around zombies, but stampeding mobs of panicky humans can be MUCH more dangerous. That's assuming some biker or street gang, or even an element of organized crime doesn't get proactive and make a move to control the necessities in order to control the people.

Putting yourself in the path of the mob is a time-honored method of getting ripped apart, and that's without zombies and fear of infection in the mix. Trying to hunker down anywhere that the mob will stampede through is a death sentence.

Then there's the fact that the majority of grocery stores are strategically placed to serve a nearby block of residential areas. High-population zones by their very definition. YES, there ARE exceptions, and a few Walmarts can be found here and there in low-population areas. Like a previous poster has mentioned repeatedly though, you'd better believe that the locals will all be flocking towards it. There may not be mob issues in such areas, but getting between desperate humans and what they perceive as what they need to stay alive and you've basically become the enemy of people who know the lay of the land intimately, who now have a common perceived enemy to band together and eliminate. You.

Not a good situation to be in. Two-front wars are never a good idea, but they're complete suicide during a zombie apocalypse.

Yes, eventually you'll face similar conflict on a smaller more infrequent scale if you control any worthwhile and well-supplied shelter. All you can do is try to minimize the chance of human vs. human conflict and hope for the best. If you do find yourself in such a conflict, strike hard, strike first (if possible), and give no quarter, because none will be offered to you.

Freely admit my outlook is cynical, but it goes back to my belief that if you scratch through the thin veneer of civility shrouding each of us, there's a savage underneath.

[Trin]

So do we agree that the entire state of Arkansas is going to converge on Bentonville?

For those of you who may not know, the headquarters of Wal-Mart is located in Bentonville Arkansas, which is about the most retarded hillbilly area of the US. It used to be extremely low population density, and still is compared to about everywhere else that Wal-Mart retail stores exist. While it may be a place that lots of gun-wielding idiots converge during a zombie outbreak, it probably has enough stuff to support everyone in a 100 mile radius given the relatively low population.

[Thorn]

I would need to avoid anyplace that was well thought of as a source of food, ammo, weapons, or shelter. They would instantly be eliminated from my short list of possible safe havens. I understand what is being said about only needing to fortify for the short term, and that you would have the ability to refortify damaged wood and so on…

Honestly though, if you have the choice between exposing yourself to attacks while you make repairs and never having to deal with the hassle and stress of the process honestly which is better? You are being given the choice of anywhere, why picked somewhere with flawed defenses and then select a method to secure them that is less than ideal? Doesn’t that seem kind of silly?

Are you that married to a supermarket or a wallmart as your castle to withstand a siege?

As for remote warehouses, they are better. I would have to imagine though that when you go there you would find SOME people and these would generally be the people who work there. At least SOME would have made their way to the place I would have to imagine and they would have friends, and family with them likely as well as other co-workers. Since they all know each other chances are they are going to work together to hold it.

I do not think any of these places are going to be a walk in the park. Sure you could get REALLY lucky but I would plan for the worst case scenario which is what I think Wyld is trying to say.

Yes the windows might hold, yes plywood might block the view for a while but why plan for best case scenarios when your life is at risk? I think that is old world ways of thinking that need to quickly flee your mind in a zombie apocalypse. I want as sure a thing as possible, and the best tools and resources at my disposal. I am planning for the worst, and if I get less than that it is a bonus.

[Mike70]

only a complete and total moron would attempt to hold out in a supermarket. period. zombies would tend to congregate there and add to that the fact that there would probably be other survivors with the same idiotic idea, the whole thing is a sure recipe for death.

i live less than 1.5 miles from the ohio river. it is a straight shot down a huge hill. taking to the river is, to me, the best viable option. you are completely safe from zombies. there is ZERO chance of a zombie getting to you in the ohio river. you have mobility that cannot impaired as easily as it can by road and you can make a complete, total and quick get away from any zombie situation. pile on to that the fact that south central ohio and north central ky are very, very sparsely populated and it all adds up to the perfect survival plan.

i'll take the inherent safety and mobility that a large river provides anyday over hiding out like a rat trapped in a cage, which is exactly what you'd be if you held up in a supermarket - a rat waiting for the exterminators.

[soulsyfn]

I had a long as reply to this that was well thought out and compelling... but it all boiled down to one thing... You cannot whole up anywhere... period.

You may be able to stand your ground for a few months (maybe longer) at one location but in the end constant movement is the best chance for survival.

In the end survival is going to be very rare and feel impossible most of the time... :eek:

[Epidemic79]

Well Im seeing a good in depth discussion and alot of good points here.

Here are my bits to knaw on;

As for the Grocery store/Walmart agenda,well I say maybe for early on supply needs,sure. Locate and pick one,get there,get in,get the crap you need,(or at least whats left available)-and bug out! Remember,depending on the population density of the local area,you and about 2 to 5000 other people are gonna be having the same plan here!

My operation would be to snag a truck or suv,maybe two,scrap together a fair number of reliable friends,reconn the joint 2 or 3 times around,& see if getting in there is even feasible,then make your move. Provided its do-able,then select the Go Team,who will going inside,and pick whos driving and whose riding shotgun with the driver. I'd want a 2 person minimal in the vehicle,preferably making circles constantly. Dont really want them stationary for too long-Suck bad to be getting your supplies and running out to discover your getaway car got Carjacked!

As for taking over & holding up inside a grocery-market place;For How Long??? Seriously,as has already been mentioned elsewere,aside from a growing number of Undead,your biggest problem mite be more from the growing number of Living outside!

Sure,we'll roll best case scenario in that you have already managed to luck-into a moderately intact Walmart,Sam's,H-E-B,or who-ever,you have taken hold of it,and somehow managed to secure it,AND you have say over a dozen able bodied,well armed,and healthy crew to defend it.

-But what happens when say a 100 or more bikers start holding daily/nightly rallies in your parking lot? Totting everything from Guns,Crowbars,Chains,Axes to Molotov Cocktails,Grenades,and Dynomite!

-What about when all there Trucker buddies arrive? Hauling God only knows what.

-And if the wildcard Military happens to appear on the horizon in a less than humanitarian mood??

And also lets be very real here. I know I cant be the only one on here whos been watching LIFE AFTER PEOPLE on History! See the bit about abandoned supermarkets? Once the power goes,refrigeration in dead.So goes the electricity,so goes about half the goods your defending. When the meat,fish,and dairy products start to spoil,nobody is gonna want to stick around with you. I'd backpack up and take my chances out there.

And how long do you honestly think the power will last? A week,if that long in some areas. Unless you a serious stockpile of generators....And even if you did,thats gonna be making Alot of noise.

I am intrigued about the capturing of a solid warehouse tho! I guess cause my dad has worked in them for the last 30+ years,and as a kid in the 80's even then I wondered about holding up in one of them against Zombies.....

[SRP76]

"Warehouse", "missile silo", "brothel" and other things weren't part of the original options.

Someone convince me that McDonald's, the bar, or a restaurant is better than the supermarket.

[acealive1]

Right, so everyone in the area knows where it is, and every survivor will head there eventually for supplies (since there's nothing else).



wauseon,ohio wal mart. u cant see it from the street or the highway

---------- Post added at 11:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:08 PM ----------


Most supermarkets in the UK are like that, huge brick buildings with a small area of glass door with a few windows either side

http://www.dqview.com/photos/uncategorized/tesco1.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/185/373227010_ddc168dfc2.jpg?v=0

But, would you want to be barricaded in there when all the freezers defrost after the power goes off & all the meat & fish starts to decompose? Then again, you'd have an ample stash of toilet paper for the diarrhea you would inevitably get :lol:





tesco vagule resembles the older kroger stores here, all brick and similar slanted roof front

[Trin]

...but I would plan for the worst case scenario which is what I think Wyld is trying to say.

Yes the windows might hold, yes plywood might block the view for a while but why plan for best case scenarios when your life is at risk? I think that is old world ways of thinking that need to quickly flee your mind in a zombie apocalypse. I want as sure a thing as possible, and the best tools and resources at my disposal. I am planning for the worst, and if I get less than that it is a bonus.
The question is not whether or not you would attempt to make the best possible defenses. Everyone would like to have have the best possible. The question is how much of your resources are you willing to expend toward a particular aspect of survival. And what is the trade-off?

Consider the cost of something like steel plates over the windows. It's gonna cost fuel and metal. It might require you to take risks to foray for the required welding materials. You might hurt yourself during the construction. And all that is after you've already had to put up plywood just to keep the zombies out while you work.

While you are building a better window the next guy over is reading up on how to can fruits and preserve meats so that when his generator runs out he has a store of food. Maybe he's taking the same metal plates and welding them to one of the distribution trucks so he can make safer forays into the world. Or maybe he's setting up alternate means of escape by taking ropes and affixing them to the roof.

So maybe plywood windows aren't the safest long term defense. But we've already decided that staying anyplace long term isn't likely to succeed. Plywood will buy you weeks, if not months. And you can use that time to augment other aspects of your surivival plan.

And if it turns out you've got a good thing going and you find yourself with time on your hands, then yeah, improve the defenses.

[Thorn]

Right.

My point is why choose a place where you need to either use inferior methods of defense or expend a lot of resources on making it as safe as possible?

You could simply pick a different area one without the obvious flaw.

I would also like to state for the record welding is not hard, and it is not all that time consuming. Even for a novice like me. You don't have to worry about a pretty end result you just need to make it effective. So I would push back that somehow welding metal in place is a major time or resource sink in a place full of metal when you have all the time in the world on your hands. Where are you going exactly?

If in the zombie apocalypse you are not willing to invest time and effort in protecting yourself what are you spending it on? Is there anything more important than your safety? Shelter, Water, Food. With all the time in the world and no distractions except your own survival.

But again... why even screw with it? If you have 2 choices one with windows at ground level, one without. Why pick windows at ground level?

Is there a reason that this would be superior in anyone's mind? I am assuming any place you pick is going to have at least two ways in and out so not as a means of escape. So then what purpose do they serve?

[Wyldwraith]

Thorn is on the right track,
It isn't about squandering energy on maximizing already stable defenses. It's about initially choosing somewhere that you don't NEED to squander energy on patchwork-defense tasks. As he says, if you have the choice between two structures containing approximately the same amount and diversity of resources, and one has ground-level windows while the other does not, who in their right mind would choose the place with windows?

Yes, NOWHERE that you can just walk into and claim via squatter's rights is going to offer you extremely long-term protection. That isn't the point. The point is to find somewhere you can FEEL as safe as you actually are (leaving you in better mental/emotional condition than the people sleeping with one eye open and barely half a step ahead of the deadheads), where you can remain reasonably well-nourished and in good health (again, as opposed to those who spend the first few weeks constantly scrounging, constantly on the move, constantly under even more stress than is necessary), and where you can develop your longer-term plans in reasonable peace.

Some locations WILL be inherently better than others, and it's only common sense that those in control of the superior hideouts will find themselves in better shape than the scroungers by Month Three. THAT is the point. NOT believing you can establish a Fortress of Solitude Everlasting from which you can ride out the apocalypse effort-free for years on end. No one with any sense believe that's a viable ambition.

Ultimately, I plan on allying with other survivors of proven competency/reliability, establishing a cache of the necessities, refitting some already durable vehicles to afford additional protection, and taking to the road in a convoy very similar to the one depicted in Resident Evil: Extinction.

HOWEVER, being on the move while society is still in the process of collapse, and the idiots have yet to have either killed themselves off or been eaten is unwise. All the supplies and awesome survival plans centered around remaining mobile will come to nothing if you make your move too soon. Move too early and you could easily find yourself "placed under military protection" while your hard-won supplies are "Commandeered for the common good". Then your fate is no longer in your own hands.

The military, should it collapse/be defeated, will not in its final days as a battered-but-still-operational whole be going building to building and thus burning off more precious and dwindling manpower and ammo. They'll be trying to execute some sort of exit strategy. Basically a retreat-in-good-order. If you're holed up somewhere you're ok. If on the other hand you're traveling down one of the few remaining passable throughways, you could easily blunder into them. Same logic goes for police and National Guard units. Staying low and out of the way early has more to do with avoiding being unwillingly entangled in failing emergency response efforts and their consequences than it does avoiding zombies.

Once the vast majority of such human operations are either wiped out or retreated to distant and perceivably more defensible locales, THEN zombies become the primary threat, and THEN being mobile becomes far more tenable.

It's frustrating, but something would-be survivors would have to accept, that the best courses of action for either threat (humans or zombies), are in direct opposition to each other. The successful survivor will be the survivor who recognizes what he or she should fear most at a given point in the catastrophe, and when to abandon the old strategy in favor of the new.

Easier said than done I know. Especially when your ability to stay abreast of what's happening in the world has been reduced to line of sight, or intermittent radio chatter at best. Then again, if it was easy to survive an apocalypse, it wouldn't really BE an apocalypse, would it?

[Trin]

But again... why even screw with it? If you have 2 choices one with windows at ground level, one without. Why pick windows at ground level?


As he says, if you have the choice between two structures containing approximately the same amount and diversity of resources, and one has ground-level windows while the other does not, who in their right mind would choose the place with windows?
Back up guys. No one has suggested they'd choose a building with windows over one without all things being equal. But at the same time I really have no clue whether the windowless wholesaler that has "approximately the same amount and diversity of resources" exists in my community. If it does I have no idea where. So I gotta work from what I know. I know my local Costco/Sam's has food, water, medicine, tools, generators, refrigerators, fuel, and vehicles. It's 10 minutes running distance from my house. It has limited external access. The rent-a-cop they employ looks like good eatin for a zombie.

My larger point is that it might make sense to choose a less easily secured building based on things that it has to offer over a more easily secured building that offers nothing but protection. Defenses can be improved over the course of time. Things like location and proximity to supplies cannot.

To one of the previous poster's points, having access to a large river would be an advantage. A building with protected, private dock access to a major river might be worth some extra effort to secure. Even if it had little or nothing to offer on its own, safe river access would open up a lot of scavenging opportunities. You could go up and down the river securing any place that had a dock, scavenging whatever you needed, and returning to your little riverfront fortress. Choose a small nondesript building and you'd probably never be challenged at your homefront.

[Publius]

wauseon,ohio wal mart. u cant see it from the street or the highway

And yet people shop there, right? My point is that all the locals will be coming there for supplies. If you're talking about sheltering there when you're the last survivor in the whole area and all you have to worry about is outsiders wandering through, that Walmart might be an okay place to hole up. If there's anything useful left in there by that time. Remember that rural folks like in Fulton County will last longer than most.

[bassman]

Anybody considered a Home Depot or Lowes? 2-3 doors tops, gardening and vegetation supplies are virtually endless, and you've got enough material to baracade an island.

[Wyldwraith]

@Trin:
You make a good point, but limited knowledge of what's available in your area doesn't have to be the case. Until the power goes you'll almost certainly still have Internet access, and with that access comes a trove of oft-ignored city resources that could prove life-saving in a zombie apocalypse.

I'll give you an example. For a midterm project in my Sociology class at the local community college, I chose "Human Reactions to Sudden Environmental Upheaval." While my basic premise had more to do with the consequences of a Katrina or Andrew-scale hurricane coming ashore in my area, the vast majority of the supporting material I dug up would prove just as useful in a zombie apocalypse.

For instance, I had four large prints of scans of Google Maps for Ocala, Florida done up on posterboard, and then I put thumbtack labels that were color-coded for various purposes/categories related to the project.

Locations like the two National Guard Armories, all police/fire stations, hospitals and easily accessed boat-ramps for the Rainbow, Withalacoochee (sp?) and St. Johns Rivers. Current distribution centers for various franchises, and both hardware and home improvement stores. Then of course there were the pawn shops, sporting goods stores and gun shops, plus Military Surplus Outlets.

The point of all this? It took me longer to get the enlarged prints back from the store than it did for me to do all the research, locate and categorize the various resources, and assign them Quality Values. While admittedly I wasn't under siege by the walking dead at the time, start to finish the entire project took about 17-20hrs over 5 days.

The info is out there at all of our fingertips if we but think constructively enough to reach out and acquire it. NO, I'm NOT suggesting you should lug a poster-sized Google Maps printout of your area around with you during a zombie apocalypse, but nothing says you can't write down a few dozen street addresses + directions and prioritize various locations before you ever take a step outside your home.

One of the biggest advantages I believe we zombie apocalypse fans possess is an inner "Oh FUCK!" alarm about what appears on the TV/in our newspapers. Should something like what we're discussing ever go down, people on this board will have their asses in gear and know whats up while everyone else is still glued to the TV watching the first couple really gory clips the news networks produce and run over and over and over.

Know one of the things I remember most about 9/11/01? The way that so many of the people I knew watched THE SAME DAMNED FOOTAGE what must've been a few HUNDRED times before any detailed info about what had happened began to become available. All around me people just kept staring at those awful images, endlessly repeated.

Raise your hand if you intend to be sitting in front of the TV watching the 400th showing of a 30-second news clip of a line of police in riot gear opening up on a mob in a major city to no perceivable effect despite the scores of bullets being sent the mob's way.

Now, Raise your hand if after the 4th of 5th viewing you're making your worst case scenario plans and doing your best to convince friends and family to do something more useful than stare at the television.

See what I mean? Just that brief interval of recovering from the shock of it faster than the bulk of society could save a lot of lives among people like us.

Just a thought.

[Trin]

Raise your hand if you intend to be sitting in front of the TV watching the 400th showing of a 30-second news clip of a line of police in riot gear opening up on a mob in a major city to no perceivable effect despite the scores of bullets being sent the mob's way.

I'm going to watch it 400 times on live TV on my main screen, watch it an additional 1000 times via DVR playback on a second screen, watch it via YouTube on my computer, watch various other news feeds via computer, and keep a news video bot searching for anything made on handheld cams by anyone named Jason.

I do think you make a very valid point about knowing your area and what's in it. Ignorance of the resources around you is just that - ignorant.

I think my main point of question/debate in this thread is the idea of any place being a one-stop survival shop for any period of time. I think there's value in the idea of moving around being key. If you can hone a technique for travelling amongst the undead and scavenging as you go you'll live longer than the guy who boards up Costco.

I'd guarantee you that my immediate neighborhood as a group has more food and water and fuel than any large bulk retail store. Granted, it's not conveniently stacked on a palette in a big brick building, but it's there if you can grab it. And you aren't going to have tons of contention for it once the dust settles some.

[Wooley]

I had a long as reply to this that was well thought out and compelling... but it all boiled down to one thing... You cannot whole up anywhere... period.

You may be able to stand your ground for a few months (maybe longer) at one location but in the end constant movement is the best chance for survival.

In the end survival is going to be very rare and feel impossible most of the time... :eek:

I'm going to disagree because you can only carry so much on your back, before you must resupply. Travel via car isn't any better-blocked roads, securing gasoline, and the noise of an engine. The movement from point a to point b and then onto point c is a lot of places you can be ambushed, or trigger a boobytrap left behind by someone either now dead or gone, not to mention that resupply I mentioned. Remember in RE: Extinction when they went into Vegas?

After a short amount of time, the easy, low hanging fruit is going to be picked, meaning you must either go into areas with a heavy zombie population to scavenge, or risk attacking the humans who hold positions in areas of low zombie population. Either way, you're going to take losses and in a short amount of time, will be combat ineffective.

Then, think about when you can't get supplies and are running on empty-watching loved ones die from malnutrition, dehydration, simple infections is going to be hard, and is likely to force you to take risks, that bring us back to the above.

All in all, I think the idea of 'taking' over any store is dumb and ultimately going to fail. Any idea you can have others will have too. Warehouse distribution stores are becoming more and more known about due to some of these 'survival' shows, plus, you can bet the government in the form of FEMA and the National Guard know about these places and will be along shortly to 'redistribute' their contents 'for the common' good. You aren't going to fight off a platoon of National Guard infantry.

Plus I work in one via a temp agency. We have fruit filled cereal bars, granola bars, fruit snacks and canned pasta. Kind of kills the dream of having all manner of canned goods and bottled water, doesn't it? We also have floor height windows in the front that run the length of the building. The fork lifts are electric powered, and that's the only way you're going to get food from the top racks, which are an easy three stories high.

I also worked in an industrial bakery for a time, through the temp agency. Pallets of flour, sugar, powdered milk in bags, peanut butter, corn syrup in plastic buckets. Most of the stuff though was in a freezer and I saw no back up power system. Fruit, milk, eggs all in 5 or 6 gallon plastic pails.
Power fails and I wouldn't want to go inside due to the stench that would be coming out of the freezers.

Same with the McDonald's I worked at. Only things not in the cooler/freezer were the pickles, dehydrated onions, buns, and condiments, plus the cookies.

I think the best survival strategy is to hunker down at home until the tipping point where desperate, violent humans and well meaning but problematic authorities are on the wane and the zombies aren't totally overwhelming, then make a move to an area with a low population density, but where the natural hazards don't make survival impossible with ad-hoc preparations. You aren't going to survive in northern Canada or the American desert without more skills and gear and preparations than a hasty survival move is going to let you have I think.

[Trin]

The idea that taking over a grocery store (or mall or costco) is simply going to fail overlooks that most people aren't going to be moving in anywhere. They're going to be avoiding trouble. Those areas might be mobbed early - fine - avoid them for a while. If we go by GAR's movies then we expect that within a month the mall is devoid of human interest. Anyone driving by sees all those zombies and just keeps driving. If you can survive for a couple months on the road then your chances of finding an abandoned place like that go way up.

[acealive1]

wal mart would be a one stop shopping place, u get cut, hungry, etc etc. its all there if u can barricade it well enough

[zombieparanoia]

I'd hit up the food supplier warehouses first. Companies like Sysco have warehouses that are often massive (like 100,000 sqft+)multi story concrete fortresses with little in the way of front entrances, they also generally have offices and diesel generators which could be run off the abundant vegetable oil inside if needed. All you need is guns, lots of guns.

[Wyldwraith]

That's what some of us have been saying Zombieparanoia,
Just using slightly different terms. Distribution center instead of wholesaler, etc. Talking about the same structures.

Wooley's comments about the eventual dwindling away of necessities that can be acquired without massive risk (such as entering the heart of a major metropolitan area) are well-made and substantial.

My only contention is with the "Stay at Home" plan. I live in Florida, where 99.5% of houses are near-identical copies of the once-trendy mini-ranch style. Stucco covered, with huge front picture windows and at least 1-2 sliding glass doors, these houses are completely indefensible no matter how much barricading you do. Even worse, the heat is such that 9 months of the year you would literally die of dehydration/heat stroke if you went up into the attic and tried to stay there longer than 15-30 minutes. I know this because our cable connections are up there (like many home owners around here), and the cable guy always has a small digital thermometer/timer combo device hanging from his tool belt. Not uncommon for it to register 140-150 degrees on a sunny 90-degree day. No basements in Florida because of the ground being sand instead of soil, making it next to impossible to keep out groundwater & seepage when it rains

Maybe it's different elsewhere, but Florida homes are complete death traps. Hell, our houses can't keep out wind and water. How are they supposed to withstand attack by ravenous ghouls?

My general plans would be more like holing up in a distribution center or other promising location. Hopefully managing to connect with my brother, best friend and a neighborhood buddy (all live on the same block), and perhaps some other trustworthy-seeming survivors.

From there we use our own weapons initially to acquire the necessities while everything goes to crap. More weapons, and what supplies aren't available where we're holed up. Wait out the initial shitstorm, then get moving and stay on the move.

[Trin]

I went to a Sam's Club over the weekend and decided that it's a long shot ever using it in any capacity during a crisis. The place was mobbed just on a normal day. I cannot imagine what it'd be like if the general populace expected to be in a survival situation. You'd run the risk of physical violence even if the place was still operating as a business. It'd be a powder keg ready to turn into riotous looting at any second. And when it does people are gonna die in the ensuing supplies grab.

Afterward the place would be picked clean. No question in my mind. The place would be done and over before the dust settles. After that, there'd be no chance there'd be anything left to defend.

The descent from lawful citizens attempting to prepare for the worst to lawless looting will take place too quickly to capitalize.

On another note, Cabella's (outdoor outfitters) was a gun-toting maniacs dream come true. Tons of guns, a wall of ammo, archery equipment, survival gear, etc. The place doesn't have a ton of food but you could kill everything that comes into a mile radius. And within that mile radius is a ton of places with food.

[Epidemic79]

Sams is the same story as Walmart.

FORGET ABOUT IT!

Aside from being mobbed with various people and families on a everyday basis,what makes it even worse is that most mega chain stores like these literaly Never Close! There open 24-7. So even if you had an In with one,like a friend or relative who works there,you could never actually have a chance to pre-secure the place.

:annoyed: