So has France got it right banning the veil?

[Neil]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

I have to say, personally I see it as nothing more than an antiquate left over from a sexist religion, so I see no problem with it. But hey... That's just my opinion :)

[Ghost Of War]

Yep, they've got it right. If I walked into a shop or a bank with a mask on, I'll be arrested. Their religion should move with the times.

[JDFP]

Religious persecution is religious persecution. Doesn't matter if we don't "like" the religion very much. Wearing a veil isn't causing harm to anyone (even though some unseedy individuals may attempt to use this as a mask it's a tiny minority of people doing it). I find this highly disturbing.

j.p.

[Skippy911sc]

I don't think the government should get involved in religion any more than religion should be involved in government. I also don't see veils as being any stranger the the number of other strange things other religions do... eating the body and drinking the blood... for example. I am picking mine to compare and criticize by the way.

[Neil]

I don't think the government should get involved in religion any more than religion should be involved in government.

Ummm... So you'd be happy if we let a religion walk around with ceremonial daggers for example?

Government dictates what happens in society. Religion is part of society. The two cannot be distingished.

How would you feel about someone driving in a full head veil? Surely it's somewhat dangerous? So it's government/society's job to have a view on it!

[JDFP]

Government dictates what happens in society. Religion is part of society. The two cannot be distingished.

They can and must be distinguished. I'll say up front I don't know how the sep. of Church and State works in France and/or England, but in the U.S. the sep. of the two entities is the very core of society. It's not intended to protect the State from religion -- rather to protect religion from the State (i.e. religious persecution implemented by the State that occurred quite regularly for centuries).

Government cannot dictate to a religion what it "must" or "must not" do. If the government states that it's okay for homosexual couples to be married by the State (court houses, etc.) the State certainly has this power -- but the State can't go to a church and say: "Yeah, you all must recognize these State marriages as valid in your religion now and be willing to allow homosexual marriages to be allowed in your church buildings". This would be in clear violation of the Constitution.

This doesn't mean that organized and recognized religions have a right to do whatever the hell they want. A Church can't decide to go kill all foreigners in a country because "Gold told us to." -- the line is that unless a religious mandate/teaching violates constitutionally imposed law (i.e. -- law that doesn't infringe on base individual rights of the nation -- such as the protection of individuals within society) then the State cannot impose laws to interfere with the organized/recognized religious body as well. It's a delicate balance that works and is the only way to ensure religious liberties are honored and respected (as should be) as well as ensuring that said religious liberties due not conflict with the welfare of all citizens under the mandate of the State for the protection of said citizens.

I think the whole issue with the veil is a sticky one because the government of France seems to be using this very essence of "protecting society" as an imposition to the Islamic belief (the one case in which a State can impose itself over religious liberties -- at least as constitutionally defined in the U.S.). Wearing a veil is clearly not the same as an organized religion deciding to kill all foreigners because "God told them to" or similar such issues though -- so, to me at least, it's a really sticky ground. I can understand both perspectives -- France wanted to ensure the protection of businesses from the * MINORITY * of individuals that mask themselves by veils while at the same time whether or not it's an imposition of the religious liberties of a world-religion. Is the State's mandate to protect all individuals (as constitutionally defined) being hindered by a religious activity due to small minority of individuals in the religion? Argh...it's really shaky ground to me.

j.p.

[Eyebiter]

No one is forcing followers of Islam to live in France. If they are so unhappy with the laws in Europe they are free to return to the Middle East.

[Neil]

Government cannot dictate to a religion what it "must" or "must not" do.
Can't see this... Again, let's see a religon try and get its followers to carry ceremonial weapons? You're suggesting society/government shouldn't have an opinion on such a matter?

Religion is just another part of society, so falls under the same umbrella as all other social behaviour...

[JDFP]

Can't see this... Again, let's see a religon try and get its followers to carry ceremonial weapons? You're suggesting society/government shouldn't have an opinion on such a matter?

Religion is just another part of society, so falls under the same umbrella as all other social behaviour...

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you, Neil. It's the State's responsibility to ensure the safety of all citizens. In my rather lengthy response above (:)) I even state that organized religion's cannot do whatever they want if their beliefs/practices interfere with the government's mandate to proect all citizens in society. However, in as much as their beliefs/practices do not interfere with the government's mandate to protect citizens then the government cannot interfere/intercede with the practices of a religion under the sep. of Church and State.

j.p.

[Danny]

Sinister leftie atheist opinion?

It, like all religious customs, is a culture thing. Relgions on the whole are always a little ...not backwards. thats not the right word. i suppose 'aged' is the closest word to what i mean, but its ritualistic and passed on so its a bit more of a special case than teens wearing hoodies or guys wearing pants down by there ankles. It has more history, stretching back long before current social rules and needs more consideration because of that.

And religion is almost like a side culture. For example i live in a modern english town between city and countryside and ten minutes down the road there is a zen bhuddist temple. So sometimes on the bus i'll see a buddhist monk with a shaved head and sandals and robes getting on the bus.
Yeah the guys get heckled by yobs but its there sub culture they have devoted there life too and the clothing is an expression of that.

I think the two biggest factors with veils are that we, as a 1st worldwide society, are more paranoid and scared than we have ever been, seeing enemies anywhere. Particularly terrorists. So we, as a people, find something associated with terrorism unnerving and feel it is a 'security risk'. However at the same time its also a social fopa thing. Like many say, you wouldnt go in a bank wearing a mask and thats true but at the same time i feel that islam is still very "knew" to people on the whole. Like hari krishna in the 60's and 70's its an appearance we arent used to and in predominantly christian countries we are used to priests with dog collars so to speak.
I think its a cultural thing that might seem odd. But so does bowing to an effigy of a man being crucified to me. So for the most part its not a religious problem at all. Just cultural.
We can yell security measure or whatever but at the end of the day i can walk down any high street and see a group of a dozen "yooofs" with scarfs covering there face, a baseball cap on and a hood pulled up and around both. Thats all we have to compare veils to and naturally all we have experienced is "people hide there faces because they are up to no good".

Now i don't agree with the idea of women having to hide themselves. It's asinine. But then so is saying the earth is 3000 years old and dinosaurs were dragons put there to test us as a cosmic joke. The act of wearing a veil as part of expressing your faith and culture? Yeah sure i can see a workplace wanting it gone where face to face talking is needed, but out and about? i don't think they should be banned no.

[Tricky]

It always gets me when I go to a shopping centre, and there will be a young asian couple walking around, and the man will be wearing all this snazzy gear, you know, the G-Star jeans, henleys T-shirts, cool sunglasses & flash expensive trainers, while his wife/girlfriend is shuffling along behind with a full veil on, probably cooking underneath it! Something just isnt right about that to me! :confused: when I was in Spain last summer there was a load of asian women swimming in the sea in full Burkas, and it was 40 degree heat!! I was absolutely melting in just a pair of swimming shorts! All that gear is just oppressive & degrading to the women I think, but then again some of them genuinely think it makes them a better muslim to wear it, and of course plenty do it because their husband will probably give them a beating if they dont...

[acealive1]

Yep, they've got it right. If I walked into a shop or a bank with a mask on, I'll be arrested. Their religion should move with the times.



amen to that

[Legion2213]

Yep, they've got it right. If I walked into a shop or a bank with a mask on, I'll be arrested. Their religion should move with the times.

This is all that needs to be said...one law for all and we'll all rub along a lot easier.

This full face veil seems to be mostly used in the West anyway, it's a political/seperatist statement IMO. It should be banned throughout the West

[Skippy911sc]

Last I checked the veil thing was not harming me.

The whole idea of terrorism is to frighten someone or terrorize...how did they do on that one?

I refuse to walk around scared of anyone, however I just choose where I will walk.

Next thing it might be the cross necklace someone wears, or the star of david necklace or ya-mica...

“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another”
TJ

I am not french nor do I live there, so I could give a rats ass what they do, but I can use all my superhuman wisdom to think it might be a step in the wrong direction. :p

[JDFP]

Last I checked the veil thing was not harming me.

The whole idea of terrorism is to frighten someone or terrorize...how did they do on that one?

I refuse to walk around scared of anyone, however I just choose where I will walk.

Next thing it might be the cross necklace someone wears, or the star of david necklace or ya-mica...

“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another”
TJ

I am not french nor do I live there, so I could give a rats ass what they do, but I can use all my superhuman wisdom to think it might be a step in the wrong direction. :p

Well said, Skippy, and I agree 100%.

I'm worried about my friend Los though, I've been missing his opinion on the death penalty / veil / etc. stuff we've been having around here the last week or so, anyone hear from him to know if he's doing groovy?

j.p.

[Legion2213]

Covering your face makes you unreadable to other people, it seperates you from others, it hinders communication and trust.

Let's be clear here, because some are trying to muddy the waters....jewish, hindu and sikh headgear does not cover the face, wearing a cross does not cover the face, wearing a full face vale does cover the face.

Also of note, nowhere in the Koran does it instruct women to fully cover their entire face and body in a tent with eye slits...this is something that happened long after Mohammed died...usually enforced by fundamentalists lile the taleban and so called "religious police".

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

[SRP76]

It's their country. They can do whatever the fuck they want. It's not their job to cater to some religion.

If you want to wear a bag on your head, or eat your children, or tattoo sharks on your ass, or whatever in your home, that's your own business. Out on the street, fitting yourself into the rules isn't going to kill you. Don't drag your religion out there for everyone else, because they're not impressed anyway.

[JDFP]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

At least the legal ones, but that's a completely different argument all together I'm sure we'll eventually have in another thread. :D:p

j.p.

[BillyRay]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

As long as they stay the hell away from Arizona...

:elol:

[SRP76]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

I'm an American, and I say "ban away".:p

The problem here is that "assilmilate" is being misused. Rather than the "we'll fit in" definition, some jokers want to use the "resistance is futile" definition. They want to march in, and, rather than adapt to what's already there, they want YOU do "adapt to service us". Sorry, but fuck off.

That's the case here. You're in France. France does NOT "need to" do one fucking thing for you. They don't have to accept your way of life, they don't have to bend over to make things comfortable for you, they don't have to do jack shit. That's the whole point to being a country; it's your house, your rules.

Put another way, just consider the fact that you have a home. You have a next-door neighbor. Alright, now what do you suppose will happen if your neighbor comes over, marches into your livingroom, and starts telling you "how it's gonna be"? That'll go over real well, won't it?

Now, because we have common sense, we don't do things like that to our next-door neighbors. We know we'll probably get beat to a bloody pulp if we try that shit with somebody. But some minorities/religions/whatever don't seem to have that common sense. They actually think the world revolves around what they want. Nope, it doesn't. You adapt to where you go, where you go does not adapt to you.

[shootemindehead]

As a person who despises all organised religions, I have to say that I am in two minds about this one.

However, I'm with SRP. If a person chooses to live in a particular country, then they should adapt by that Country's laws, even if this particular move is happening after the majority of muslims living in France have already been there for quite a while.

But, in the end this is really small potatoes and it may just be France drawing a very visible line in the sand.

The serious issue is when elements of other nation's laws, such as Sharia law are given equal or superior measure to regional national law, then that to my mind is when things become upped to a whole new level.

[Ghost Of War]

I'm an American, and I say "ban away".:p

The problem here is that "assilmilate" is being misused. Rather than the "we'll fit in" definition, some jokers want to use the "resistance is futile" definition. They want to march in, and, rather than adapt to what's already there, they want YOU do "adapt to service us". Sorry, but fuck off.

That's the case here. You're in France. France does NOT "need to" do one fucking thing for you. They don't have to accept your way of life, they don't have to bend over to make things comfortable for you, they don't have to do jack shit. That's the whole point to being a country; it's your house, your rules.

Put another way, just consider the fact that you have a home. You have a next-door neighbor. Alright, now what do you suppose will happen if your neighbor comes over, marches into your livingroom, and starts telling you "how it's gonna be"? That'll go over real well, won't it?

Now, because we have common sense, we don't do things like that to our next-door neighbors. We know we'll probably get beat to a bloody pulp if we try that shit with somebody. But some minorities/religions/whatever don't seem to have that common sense. They actually think the world revolves around what they want. Nope, it doesn't. You adapt to where you go, where you go does not adapt to you.

Yes. This. 100%.

[Publius]

Can't see this... Again, let's see a religon try and get its followers to carry ceremonial weapons? You're suggesting society/government shouldn't have an opinion on such a matter?

Have you forgotten you're talking to an American there? Most of us think the government has no business banning people from carrying around handguns, so why should we shiver in our boots at the thought of a little Sikh dagger? Combine a 2nd Amendment violation with a 1st Amendment violation and we're supposed to be happier about it? ;)

[SymphonicX]

No one is forcing followers of Islam to live in France. If they are so unhappy with the laws in Europe they are free to return to the Middle East.

You can solve all of the world's race relations with this approach!

Just remind people how lucky they may have been to live there and pay taxes for 30 years or more! It's REALLY worked over in the UK, over the last few decades we've been very quick to play the "if you don't like it, get out" card - each time it backfires because of the very obvious and dare I say immature approach to people who have taken up citizenship in a democratic society, pay taxes, and expect to be able to "petition the government of grievances" or whatever it says.

C'mon man - something of value for your next post? Not trying to be a dick here but it's comments like that which are distracting to the real issues here. You kinda gotta expect this one to not be said - what would you expect a french muslim, who's been living there for decades, to respond with? "oh OK then, I've never seen it like that, I'll just get Afghani passports sorted out for the family i have that was born here and we'll all just emigrate back to our native warzone"

They would expect an equal say just like you would.

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

As for my stance on this issue - the only problem I have with religion is when it inspires people to oppress or kill others - this veil issue first has to be contextualised properly - we may see it as oppression but you'd find a lot of muslims, either converted or born into it, wouldn't agree with you. Jury's out on whether to believe it or not - but bottom line, I don't think it's the decision of any non-muslim.

[Eyebiter]

There is an attitude now days among recent immigrants that they should be allowed to emigrate into western nations without making any attempt to adapt to the prevailing culture at hand.

On one hand they want all the freedoms associated with living in a western nation, including welfare, access to hospitals, free school for their kids, and other advantages. But they don't think the prevailing legal system in place should apply to them. That their status as immigrants should give them special status. They should not be required to take any steps to fit in.

Compare that attitude to the earlier waves of immigration into the United States. People made it a point to learn the language, adopt the prevailing culture, to the point they stopped speaking their native tongue and changed their names to sound more Americanized. There is a reason the US was called the great American melting pot. The fact that people adapted to learn to live together.

With the Muslims in France it's the exact opposite, they think their people should be allowed to enter the country and have the French bend to their will and values. That isn't immigration folks, that is an invasion.

How far are you willing to go to accommodate these new arrivals? Should we be forced to change our laws to suit the whims and wishes of people wanting to live in the 7th Century?

Forget that noise.

[Danny]

Quick question folks, what is the bad thing that's going to happen by allowing women of muslim beliefs to wear a veil?

See this seems to stem mostly from "there terrorists, hiding there face" -isn't that counter productive to terrorism? If these people are secret bombers or something they arent helping there cause standing out are they? Veils arent exactly hidden in plain site.

I'm gonna call it, for every 2 people who genuinely feel its a culture collision problem theres a hundred people who are being out and out racist and this is a fine excuse.

A terrorist can hide in a tracksuit and trainers just as easily as in a turban and a robe or some other cliche' hollywood movie bollocks.

[JDFP]

Have you forgotten you're talking to an American there? Most of us think the government has no business banning people from carrying around handguns, so why should we shiver in our boots at the thought of a little Sikh dagger? Combine a 2nd Amendment violation with a 1st Amendment violation and we're supposed to be happier about it? ;)

Right on. The government doesn't have any right banning Americans from carrying fire-arms as long as they are legally carrying fire-arms and responsible (say, not convicted felons). It is a Constitutional right. And Sikh's who want to carry ceremonial daggers -- absolutely. It's their right.

Funny thing is, an irresponsible person can kill someone with a gun but they are protected by the Constitution. I can't recall the last time a burqa attacked anyone and religious ideology is protected by the Constitution too. It seems that someone committing a crime with a burqa on is far more terrible than say someone wearing a Halloween outfit doing it (or just a regular joe not wearing a veil/burqa doing it). Of course, that has nothing to do with the fact that people associate terrorism with Islam and they don't associate crime with wearing a Halloween costume or wearing jeans and a t-shirt. :rolleyes:

j.p.

[SymphonicX]

Quick question folks, what is the bad thing that's going to happen by allowing women of muslim beliefs to wear a veil?

See this seems to stem mostly from "there terrorists, hiding there face" -isn't that counter productive to terrorism? If these people are secret bombers or something they arent helping there cause standing out are they? Veils arent exactly hidden in plain site.

I'm gonna call it, for every 2 people who genuinely feel its a culture collision problem theres a hundred people who are being out and out racist and this is a fine excuse.

A terrorist can hide in a tracksuit and trainers just as easily as in a turban and a robe or some other cliche' hollywood movie bollocks.

agreed!

---------- Post added at 07:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------


There is an attitude now days among recent immigrants that they should be allowed to emigrate into western nations without making any attempt to adapt to the prevailing culture at hand.

On one hand they want all the freedoms associated with living in a western nation, including welfare, access to hospitals, free school for their kids, and other advantages. But they don't think the prevailing legal system in place should apply to them. That their status as immigrants should give them special status. They should not be required to take any steps to fit in.

Compare that attitude to the earlier waves of immigration into the United States. People made it a point to learn the language, adopt the prevailing culture, to the point they stopped speaking their native tongue and changed their names to sound more Americanized. There is a reason the US was called the great American melting pot. The fact that people adapted to learn to live together.

With the Muslims in France it's the exact opposite, they think their people should be allowed to enter the country and have the French bend to their will and values. That isn't immigration folks, that is an invasion.

How far are you willing to go to accommodate these new arrivals? Should we be forced to change our laws to suit the whims and wishes of people wanting to live in the 7th Century?

Forget that noise.

jews can be orthodox in the US and you'd often see hacidic jews living in both the US and the UK

No one's told him to take off their skull caps, or shave their sideburns....in fact they have the freedom to practise their religion in the US as they wish and wearing whatever they wish.

You've just got a hard on for Islam and are looking to use it, it's a shame - it's also a shame you haven't really considered the similarities between all breadths of religion that exist in your own country, including Islam. You give yourself away with statements using words like "they" - "us and them" mentality.

------------------------

On a side note, and reiterating what Hellsing said - this is not an issue to do with terrorism, so any arguments or discussions based on terrorism should be in another thread - this is about France's action to ban the veil. Terrorism doesn't feature in the average muslim life and neither does world domination. That should not be a controversial thing to say.

[JDFP]

On a side note, and reiterating what Hellsing said - this is not an issue to do with terrorism, so any arguments or discussions based on terrorism should be in another thread - this is about France's action to ban the veil. Terrorism doesn't feature in the average muslim life and neither does world domination. That should not be a controversial thing to say.

Thank you for stating this. It should go without stating at all but thank you for saying it all the same.

j.p.

[Eyebiter]

You can't walk into a bank here in the US without taking off your hat and sunglasses for the cameras. It's an inconvenience we all put up with designed to thwart bank robbers. People who wear the veil don't think that law should apply to them.

They have also tried on several occasions to get a state issued DRIVERS LICENSE or REGISTER TO VOTE with a veiled picture. Apparently this practice is common in the Middle East (in areas where they let women vote).

http://uppitywoman08.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/voterphoto.jpg

With all respect to their religious beliefs, why should they expect to have more rights than the rest of us? Isn't the whole point of photo identification to have the ability to identify someone?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cNeYtu6FAIQ/SeTMCnsscuI/AAAAAAAAA3c/ZqiI8JdK8fA/s400/pnc+bank.jpg

[Publius]

Edit: I also note it seems to be our american friends standing up and saying this shouldn't be banned, which is understandable really, your immigrants seem to assimilate better than european immigrants.

I see women in full burqas all the time here. Most of my neighbors are immigrants from Asia or Africa. More relevant, I think, is the fact that America was founded by religious dissidents who were fed up with European intolerance. :p


You can't walk into a bank here in the US without taking off your hat and sunglasses for the cameras. It's an inconvenience we all put up with designed to thwart bank robbers. People who wear the veil don't think that law should apply to them.

They have also tried on several occasions to get a state issued DRIVERS LICENSE or REGISTER TO VOTE with a veiled picture. Apparently this practice is common in the Middle East (in areas where they let women vote).

True, but those are separate questions from whether burqas should be banned outright. U.S. courts would never allow a complete ban on religious garb, but they have recognized states' interest in requiring that identification documents actually allow the identification of the person they are issued to (i.e. by showing that person's face).

[Eyebiter]

Police Say Man Wearing Burqa Robs MD Bank

SILVER SPRING, Md. - Montgomery County police say a man wearing a burqa has robbed a bank in Silver Spring.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/police-say-man-wearing-burqa-robs-md-bank-081110

[JDFP]

Police Say Man Wearing Burqa Robs MD Bank

SILVER SPRING, Md. - Montgomery County police say a man wearing a burqa has robbed a bank in Silver Spring.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/police-say-man-wearing-burqa-robs-md-bank-081110

..And how many people robbed a bank this week wearing a baseball cap?

Oh dear, we better ban baseball caps!

j.p.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Police Say Man Wearing Burqa Robs MD Bank

SILVER SPRING, Md. - Montgomery County police say a man wearing a burqa has robbed a bank in Silver Spring.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/police-say-man-wearing-burqa-robs-md-bank-081110

That is only 20 minutes from me... Same County that i live in just on the far east side of the county and I am on the far NW side of the county.