since when do they need passports?

[acealive1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100713/ap_on_sp_ot/us_lacrosse_iroquois_passports





are you serious? airlines think they're above the law.

[Mr.G]

I'm sorry, I realize Native Americans have been F*CKED over many many times by the US government but they need an official US Passport. I don't see how this step is an attack on their identity.

[Legion2213]

We live in the 21st century, people need modern passports.

Sorry, but that is the way it is for all the other 6 billion+ folks who live on this planet.

[bassman]

The players won't accept U.S. government-issued documents because they see them as an attack on their identity.

So a little book with your name and photo is an attack? Some people will whine about anything.

As mentioned before....everyone else is required to have an official passport and these guys should be no different. If this tournament was so important to them, why did they go to the airport knowing they would be turned away? Publicity stunt much?:rolleyes:

[acealive1]

So a little book with your name and photo is an attack? Some people will whine about anything.

As mentioned before....everyone else is required to have an official passport and these guys should be no different. If this tournament was so important to them, why did they go to the airport knowing they would be turned away? Publicity stunt much?:rolleyes:

know the rules first...... anytime u enter a reservation, ur not in US territory anymore.


so their rules,period.

[SRP76]

The problem is that their "tribal" passports are handwritten, stone age shit. Tell your tribe's leaders to spring for modern technology, and you won't have this problem. And don't tell me they don't have access to the modern world, as their kids play a fucking Xbox.

[bassman]

know the rules first...... anytime u enter a reservation, ur not in US territory anymore.


so their rules,period.

They're not on their reservation. They're in an airport trying to board a plane. Big difference. It's very far from their rules.

[Exatreides]

Meh, It's a gray area. They want all the rights of a Sovereign nation since, they sorta are..

I guess they have a psudo Autonomy. I know Israel has a couple out reach programs to native Americans, and more tribes are pushing for recognition of their status. Let them be their own countries with passports ect. It really won't hurt us at all.

[Mr.G]

Meh, It's a gray area. They want all the rights of a Sovereign nation since, they sorta are..

Then perhaps they should create an official passport that other countries in the world would recognize? Do they create their own driver's license, birth certificates, etc.

I'm not hating on them, but I don't think the request is that demanding. Give them to them free for all I care.

[SRP76]

Then perhaps they should create an official passport that other countries in the world would recognize?

Bingo. Like every other "nation" has to do. They certainly are capable of doing so, they have just chosen not to. No room to cry now.

[acealive1]

They're not on their reservation. They're in an airport trying to board a plane. Big difference. It's very far from their rules.


ok so you know what i meant,man. cmon now. they have carte blanche EVERYWHERE. they dont pay taxes, they set their own prices for EVERYTHING. even gas and cigs. which is why new york senators are trying to get their land essentially taken away and prices regulated.



the government doesnt run them, hence the handwritten info they have.


amish do the same, hell they dont even take pictures so why the big dust up over natives?

---------- Post added at 09:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:49 PM ----------


Meh, It's a gray area. They want all the rights of a Sovereign nation since, they sorta are..

I guess they have a psudo Autonomy. I know Israel has a couple out reach programs to native Americans, and more tribes are pushing for recognition of their status. Let them be their own countries with passports ect. It really won't hurt us at all.



the US wont ever give them total distance from everyone. they make way too much money off of each other.





remember when vermont wanted to break off frm the states a couple years ago? they didnt realize there was so much more to do than just break off. they'd have to start over

[Publius]

amish do the same, hell they dont even take pictures so why the big dust up over natives?

I'm sure if the Amish tried to fly to some international sporting event without proper passports, they wouldn't be treated any more favorably. They just don't do that kinda thing.

[Eyebiter]

Some Native Americans have major issues with identification. They want their tribal id to be accepted instead of a state drivers license or social security card.

I've seen this locally, where a woman refused to present her drivers license at the jail to visit an inmate. She was adamant the only ID she had was her tribal ID. The lady is standing there with car keys in hand and we were supposed to believe she didn't have a state issued drivers license.

It's just a power thing. Some Native Americans take the whole "we are a separate nation" thing too far.

[acealive1]

I'm sure if the Amish tried to fly to some international sporting event without proper passports, they wouldn't be treated any more favorably. They just don't do that kinda thing.


i personally know some amish people, they dont even have a picture on their work id

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100714/ap_on_sp_ot/us_lacrosse_iroquois_passports






looks like they Do have proper passports issued by their native american nation......and the UK still says no. yikes

[SRP76]

The British government, meanwhile, won't give the players visas if they cannot guarantee they'll be allowed to go home.

:lol:

"We'll let you visit, but you're not staying, motherfucker!"

[acealive1]

:lol:

"We'll let you visit, but you're not staying, motherfucker!"


i doubt theyd wanna stay there

[DubiousComforts]

"The Iroquois documents look similar to U.S. passports but are emblazoned with a Haudenosaunee insignia featuring a tree and animal emblems."

Sounds like they do have passports.

"Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the U.S. has tightened up identification rules for foreign travelers from close U.S. allies such as France, Germany and the United Kingdom."

Ah-ha! Now we really see from whence the stench originates.

[SymphonicX]

know the rules first...... anytime u enter a reservation, ur not in US territory anymore.


so their rules,period.

If this were truly the case they''d need passports to pass from reservations to US soil? and the airports aren't on reservation land are they? So technically....

Personally I think they should suck it up a bit and try to form some sort of solution rather than turning up at the airport and throwing a hissy fit.

For instace their "tribal, handwritten" passports are obviously stupid and they need a place in the passport authority offices where they can be issued with passports that better reflect their citizenship.

How does it work with public services then? Are the police allowed on reservation land? are they used by native americans in an emergency?

---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------


Meh, It's a gray area. They want all the rights of a Sovereign nation since, they sorta are..

I guess they have a psudo Autonomy. I know Israel has a couple out reach programs to native Americans, and more tribes are pushing for recognition of their status. Let them be their own countries with passports ect. It really won't hurt us at all.

Unless of course they wear anything that covers their face?

[Publius]

i personally know some amish people, they dont even have a picture on their work id

That may well be, but work ID generally has less stringent requirements than international travel documents.

[acealive1]

If this were truly the case they''d need passports to pass from reservations to US soil? and the airports aren't on reservation land are they? So technically....

Personally I think they should suck it up a bit and try to form some sort of solution rather than turning up at the airport and throwing a hissy fit.

For instace their "tribal, handwritten" passports are obviously stupid and they need a place in the passport authority offices where they can be issued with passports that better reflect their citizenship.

How does it work with public services then? Are the police allowed on reservation land? are they used by native americans in an emergency?

---------- Post added at 09:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:43 AM ----------



Unless of course they wear anything that covers their face?







no no no. when u leave and enter indian land to US soil, its pretty much an unspoken thing that they have where u can go from place to place without a passport. same with puerto rico and the US.





look at the last link i posted.......not handwritten

[SymphonicX]

i doubt theyd wanna stay there

Wow....

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------


no no no. when u leave and enter indian land to US soil, its pretty much an unspoken thing that they have where u can go from place to place without a passport. same with puerto rico and the US.





look at the last link i posted.......not handwritten

Well I saw the pic and the cover isn't handwritten - the first link you posted says they are....

Either way, as I say, they need to get their own allocation at the passport authority in the US. Print their own passports with US regulation watermarks etc but designed by their native people. Can't see why they haven't done that yet.

[Publius]

no no no. when u leave and enter indian land to US soil, its pretty much an unspoken thing that they have where u can go from place to place without a passport. same with puerto rico and the US.

Yeah, you can go from place to place within the US (and its territories, like Puerto Rico) without a passport because you're never leaving the external borders of the US. Go to Europe like these people wanted to do, though, and it's a different story. The Indian rules don't apply all over the world. The tribes have a special relationship with the US.


look at the last link i posted.......not handwritten

Not completely handwritten, but umpteen gajillion sources are clear that they're partly handwritten. They probably got a bunch of passport booklets printed up with blanks for personal information and a space for a photo, and fill the blanks in by hand for each individual.

[Mr.G]

For instace their "tribal, handwritten" passports are obviously stupid

LOL...I needed that this morning thanks! :lol:

[SymphonicX]

LOL...I needed that this morning thanks! :lol:

lol you know what I mean though right - it's like handing someone an IOU instead of real money...!

[bassman]

:lol:

The other day I got pulled over. I gave the cop a piece of paper with a smiley face and "Bassman - allowed to drive".

[SRP76]

The other day I got pulled over. I gave the cop a piece of paper with a smiley face and "Bassman - allowed to drive".

:lol: Classic.

[acealive1]

Wow....[COLOR="Silver"]

.






theres nothing wow about it. all i said is they wouldnt wanna stay there. nothing behind it,calm down

---------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------


:lol:

The other day I got pulled over. I gave the cop a piece of paper with a smiley face and "Bassman - allowed to drive".





or just keep driving into reservation territory and the cops can do nothing

[bassman]

or just keep driving into reservation territory and the cops can do nothing

:lol:

What is it with you and the reservations? These guys were in an airport. Where the same rules apply to EVERYONE regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.

[acealive1]

:lol:

What is it with you and the reservations? These guys were in an airport. Where the same rules apply to EVERYONE regardless of race, religion, sex, etc.






maybe because my great grandmother is 100% blackfoot indian? that might be it....

[bassman]

maybe because my great grandmother is 100% blackfoot indian? that might be it....

Sorry, I guess?:confused::confused:

It still doesn't change the fact that a universal rule is just that - A rule that applies to everyone.

[Publius]

maybe because my great grandmother is 100% blackfoot indian? that might be it....

That's awesome, seriously, but I still don't understand the logical relationship between your great-grandmother's ethnicity and the question of whether the laws applicable on an Indian reservation have anything to do with international flights from US airports.

[acealive1]

That's awesome, seriously, but I still don't understand the logical relationship between your great-grandmother's ethnicity and the question of whether the laws applicable on an Indian reservation have anything to do with international flights from US airports.



because by law they dont need US issued anything unless they want it. theres no law saying any native american has to get a US id.


i agree it would smooth things over alot more,but they dont even pay taxes so why would they pay for a passport

[rongravy]

Why not offer a free bottle of firewater with government issued passport?
(secretly included in the price...)
That'd bring them in droves.

[Wyldwraith]

That last post was NOT FUNNY and NOT COOL,
Major cultural damage to many Native Americans via the ravages of alcoholism (along with the resulting drunken actions being used as a pretext for a good-ole-fashioned lynching), is just one of the MANY things we WASPs should be ashamed of on behalf of our barbaric ancestors.

Hell, in some areas Native Americans who wanted to stay alive on the desolate land that passed for a "reservation", which lacked even untainted sources of drinking water were forced to concoct diluted-alcohol-based drinks to avoid getting killed by the waterborne sicknesses which ravaged their tribes.

Not even going to get into the many more direct forms of biological warfare our ancestors waged on the Native Americans. Cholera-tainted blankets given to people desperate to keep their children and elders from freezing. Ring any bells?

Yes, I believe that Tribal Passports need to include the same security features that U.S passports contain. So do the Native Americans, who are working through their authorities, with the U.S government to develop just such passports. The real problem is getting them internationally recognized, which I consider insult to injury given historical events.

The Tribes have a RIGHT to issue their own passports/documentation and have them recognized. Sovereign doesn't mean "Autonomous until it's slightly inconvenient for the vastly more powerful neighboring nation which is built in its entirety on land stolen from said Tribes."

I think that it might not have been the best instance to highlight their objection to this policy, but I understand why they would feel being forced to submit on this issue to be an attack on their Tribal identity.

We did enough to the Native Americans in the past. Simple stuff like this is NOT something we should fight them on.

Just my opinion as someone whose maternal grandmother is nearly full-blooded Cherokee, and whose maternal grandfather was 3/4ths Creek. Admittedly completely Anglicized family, but it does influence my thinking on these issues.

That and I sort of feel like it's just a basic decency thing. We send our military to create liberty-having societies abroad, but we can't stay consistent in our morals at home?

[rongravy]

That last post was NOT FUNNY and NOT COOL,
Major cultural damage to many Native Americans via the ravages of alcoholism (along with the resulting drunken actions being used as a pretext for a good-ole-fashioned lynching), is just one of the MANY things we WASPs should be ashamed of on behalf of our barbaric ancestors.

We did enough to the Native Americans in the past. Simple stuff like this is NOT something we should fight them on.

You got a turd in your pocket? Because we didn't do jack diddly squat to any of them...
Lighten up, dood. All the things you mentioned, although sad, happened several hundred years ago mostly.
No one in my family stepped foot on this side of the planet until well after that went down, my mom's side until 1972, when she shat me out unceremoniously after leaving Germany with my dad.
Hit me up on some guilt over the past when we're talking about da Jews, but as far as the subject here today...
They need to quit their whining and get their U.S. issued passports. Maybe spend some of that Cherokee Casino money and hook anybody and everybody with ancestry up with the dough to get them. They should have their own laws on their little patch of land, but that's as far as it should extend to, within reason.
That being said, I've worked in the past with alot of Cherokees around the Oklahoma/Arkansas border, nice people...
Not nearly as hung up over the past as you are. And they sure DO like their firewater.:elol:

[acealive1]

You got a turd in your pocket? Because we didn't do jack diddly squat to any of them...







yea, and WE didnt do anything to holocaust survivors either but We are all being held accountable,arent we? same with slavery, just gotta remember it happened so it doesnt happen again

[CooperWasRight]

Im not even gonna touch the we argument... But I will say as a Native that all provided documentation by my tribe is just as valid as any other form of us government documentation. If you are a native there is NO law stating you are required to carry or use U.S. documentation... Any such idea is further breach of agreement the united states government and indigenous people. Anyone whom is arguing on against this tribe is not only uneducated on the issue but is most likely in the dark on the history on which this country was founded on and the alleged treaties signed.

2nd of all passports vary from country to country... As well as laws based on lawful and unlawful entry into a country... Some people just open there mouth with no knowledge on what they speak about.

[rongravy]

yea, and WE didnt do anything to holocaust survivors either but We are all being held accountable,arent we? same with slavery, just gotta remember it happened so it doesnt happen again

Hey, I'm definitely down with none of that kinda shenanigans ever happening ever again.
Ever.
I just ain't accountable for the deeds of others in the past, personally. Just saying...
I haven't pulled the trigger on anyone yet. Or cracked a whip. Or stole a people's land. Or cranked up an oven...
I love all peoples.

[CooperWasRight]

Hey, I'm definitely down with none of that kinda shenanigans ever happening ever again.
Ever.
I just ain't accountable for the deeds of others in the past, personally. Just saying...
I haven't pulled the trigger on anyone yet. Or cracked a whip. Or stole a people's land. Or cranked up an oven...
I love all peoples.

Ok I lied... Im am gonna get into the "we" argument... One could say that argument holds water you are using except for one thing.... You are on stolen land.... And the atrocities committed have not been properly answered for...

Im not saying anyone here falls victim to the following intellectual fallacy...
Hey I take pride in my country and its wonderful history or even current event that I have nothing to do with...BUT.... I have nothing to do with the naughty bits and therefore should not be blamed for such.

also even if people now have no responsibility or should bare no sense or shame for the past shouldn't they at least be the champions of making sure that a proper respect for the past is had and clearly denouncing past actions?

Rather then a stance of...uh ...Fuck em... These guys need to get with the program... or one of my favorites... Fuck those guys why do they get special treatment.

[acealive1]

... Fuck those guys why do they get special treatment.


because they predate everyone in north america?

---------- Post added at 03:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 AM ----------


Hey, I'm definitely down with none of that kinda shenanigans ever happening ever again.
Ever.
I just ain't accountable for the deeds of others in the past, personally. Just saying...
I haven't pulled the trigger on anyone yet. Or cracked a whip. Or stole a people's land. Or cranked up an oven...
I love all peoples.


no one said u did,ron.


im saying as a nation people arent all on the same page. state senators are saying "slavery wasnt a mistake and we're not apologizing for it" so what do u think their stance it?

[SymphonicX]

theres nothing wow about it. all i said is they wouldnt wanna stay there. nothing behind it,calm down[COLOR="Silver"]


Yeah but....we have such great VAT rates....

---------- Post added at 10:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------


because by law they dont need US issued anything unless they want it. theres no law saying any native american has to get a US id.


i agree it would smooth things over alot more,but they dont even pay taxes so why would they pay for a passport

Totally, no US id, but maybe a Native American one....at least SOME form of ID....

[Publius]

Not even going to get into the many more direct forms of biological warfare our ancestors waged on the Native Americans. Cholera-tainted blankets given to people desperate to keep their children and elders from freezing. Ring any bells?

Not really. I think you mean smallpox-tainted blankets (the usual claim), but as far as I know there's no evidence that that actually happened apart from some correspondence between British officers briefly discussing the idea in 1763. Plenty of other atrocities were committed over the centuries, of course.

[Wyldwraith]

No,
I mean Cholera. I'm aware of the smallpox issues which are potentially very similar, but I was just recently reading a book which included the synopsis of the court transcripts of an Indian Management agent who plead guilty to trading blankets on their way to be burned due to their having been used by victims of Cholera and Yellow Fever. (No, you don't need to tell me Yellow Fever can't be transmitted by contact with a blanket of someone with the disease. The point was the Agent had no more idea of what caused Yellow Fever at that time than anyone else of that time did, but he admitted to knowing where the blankets came from, and what they'd been potentially tainted by and trading them anyways for turquoise from desperate Native Americans. Navajo in this case.)

In the particular instance I'm mentioning I don't know whether any of the Native Americans even got sick, that's NOT THE POINT. The point is you DON'T SELL GOODS POTENTIALLY TAINTED WITH LETHAL INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

If I stick a loaded gun to your head and pull the trigger in front of a cop, he won't be walking me to my car and sending me merrily on my way if the bullet happens to be a dud and the gun doesn't fire.

Intent MATTERS.

[acealive1]

Yeah but....we have such great VAT rates....

---------- Post added at 10:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------



Totally, no US id, but maybe a Native American one....at least SOME form of ID....


oh yea they got id. they're pretty friggin civilized. its not like they have stone tablet ids

[SRP76]

Forget the whining about the poor natives and shit from centuries ago.

A more current question would be this: did these guys ever get to their game, or what?

[rongravy]

Ok I lied... Im am gonna get into the "we" argument... One could say that argument holds water you are using except for one thing.... You are on stolen land.... And the atrocities committed have not been properly answered for...

One could also argue that most land on this planet has been "stolen" somewhere in the past by SOMEBODY. And there's loads of atrocities unanswered for throughout tizzime. Should I feel bad everytime other Whiteys laid the hammer down on another race? Hell, I've heard stories of Indian tribes wiping out other tribes back in the day, too. Didn't they used to leave their own elderly behind to die when they were a burden?
The world is full of atrocities, wish I could make them stop, but I ain't gonna have guilt and shame laid upon me like that, sorry.



Im not saying anyone here falls victim to the following intellectual fallacy...
Hey I take pride in my country and its wonderful history or even current event that I have nothing to do with...BUT.... I have nothing to do with the naughty bits and therefore should not be blamed for such.

also even if people now have no responsibility or should bare no sense or shame for the past shouldn't they at least be the champions of making sure that a proper respect for the past is had and clearly denouncing past actions?

Rather then a stance of...uh ...Fuck em... These guys need to get with the program... or one of my favorites... Fuck those guys why do they get special treatment.
Le sigh. There is absolutely no reason why I should personally feel any shame over things in the past done by others. I do hear what you are saying about not repeating things like that. Not sure how I can personally "champion the cause" but I'm open to suggestions...
:elol:

And I wanna know if they made it to their game as well...

[acealive1]

Forget the whining about the poor natives and shit from centuries ago.

A more current question would be this: did these guys ever get to their game, or what?



nope,had to forfeit. its nice to see foreigners get treated better coming here and establishing an identity. geez.

[Publius]

I mean Cholera. I'm aware of the smallpox issues which are potentially very similar, but I was just recently reading a book which included the synopsis of the court transcripts of an Indian Management agent who plead guilty to trading blankets on their way to be burned due to their having been used by victims of Cholera and Yellow Fever. (No, you don't need to tell me Yellow Fever can't be transmitted by contact with a blanket of someone with the disease. The point was the Agent had no more idea of what caused Yellow Fever at that time than anyone else of that time did, but he admitted to knowing where the blankets came from, and what they'd been potentially tainted by and trading them anyways for turquoise from desperate Native Americans. Navajo in this case.)

In the particular instance I'm mentioning I don't know whether any of the Native Americans even got sick, that's NOT THE POINT. The point is you DON'T SELL GOODS POTENTIALLY TAINTED WITH LETHAL INFECTIOUS DISEASE.

Interesting. That sounds, though, like cases where companies have gotten in trouble for recklessly selling tainted food, etc. Like this guy (http://www.lagrangenews.com/view/full_story/1956690/article-BC-Salmonella-Outbreak-Prosecution-0796) who was recently prosecuted for selling salmonella-tainted peanut products. We don't normally call that biological/chemical warfare, just a crime. It sounds like that guy wasn't trying to wipe out the Navajo, just make a buck with no regard for what the consequences of his actions might be. And he was caught and punished (though probably not severely enough).

---------- Post added at 03:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 AM ----------


oh yea they got id. they're pretty friggin civilized. its not like they have stone tablet ids

But not up to current standards, being partially handwritten and all. They shouldn't feel too bad, though, it's not just a Native thing. The Irish have had problems recently too. See their Foreign Affairs Ministry's guidance (http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=25514) and this guy's story (http://paddyk.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/the-irish-passport/).

[CooperWasRight]

Interesting. That sounds, though, like cases where companies have gotten in trouble for recklessly selling tainted food, etc. Like this guy (http://www.lagrangenews.com/view/full_story/1956690/article-BC-Salmonella-Outbreak-Prosecution-0796) who was recently prosecuted for selling salmonella-tainted peanut products. We don't normally call that biological/chemical warfare, just a crime. It sounds like that guy wasn't trying to wipe out the Navajo, just make a buck with no regard for what the consequences of his actions might be. And he was caught and punished (though probably not severely enough).

---------- Post added at 03:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:42 AM ----------



But not up to current standards, being partially handwritten and all. They shouldn't feel too bad, though, it's not just a Native thing. The Irish have had problems recently too. See their Foreign Affairs Ministry's guidance (http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=25514) and this guy's story (http://paddyk.wordpress.com/2008/09/09/the-irish-passport/).

tory is not really similair. What was done to the native americans was done in many cases with intent to kill them off.