Land Gets Worse

[SRP76]

I didn't see a good thread to tack this onto, so I'm making one. It can always be deleted if it takes up precious space.

The first couple times I watched Land of the Dead, I wasn't impressed, to say the least. Well, there has been a theory around here that maybe Land will somehow "get better with time".

I stayed away from this movie for about a full year. I recently picked it up at the "going out of business sale" a local videostore had, and finally watched Land again last night.

Verdict: it still sucks.

More than that, it's actually worse on this viewing. I started to notice stuff that I hadn't before.

Two things from the "modern movie" formula that absolutely drive me bonkers are here:

1. random gunshot causing huge explosions. What the fuck is that about? You can't have a gun in a movie anymore without a stray bullet causing something to blow up. I have NEVER seen a stray round cause an explosion in real life.

2. obligatory "orgy of vice" with idiots partying and staging some kind of "feed the woman to something" gladiator bullshit, complete wth some retarded, loud music with the disco beat. Why in hell does every "post-apocalypse" film seem to have this scene?

I also noticed something that isn't infuriating, but rather corny as hell and made me laugh. The goofy little piano jingle that plays every time a zombie "learns something". I hadn't noticed before because I was blinded by hatred of Big Daddy, but I caught it this time. It got to the point where I was saying, "yup, time to go to school" every time I heard the music. It was ridiculous.

So, in closing, I'd like to say that this is not a movie that will somehow seem better than it is after repeated viewings or passing of time.

[AcesandEights]

I
I also noticed something that isn't infuriating, but rather corny as hell and made me laugh. The goofy little piano jingle that plays every time a zombie "learns something".

Shit, I don't recall noticing this before, but it sounds bad...may just be time for a re-viewing.

[MikePizzoff]

Land has just been sitting on my shelf forever, still wrapped in celaphane. It's strictly there for collections sake.

[DEAD BEAT]

I didn't see a good thread to tack this onto, so I'm making one. It can always be deleted if it takes up precious space.

The first couple times I watched Land of the Dead, I wasn't impressed, to say the least. Well, there has been a theory around here that maybe Land will somehow "get better with time".

I stayed away from this movie for about a full year. I recently picked it up at the "going out of business sale" a local videostore had, and finally watched Land again last night.

Verdict: it still sucks.

More than that, it's actually worse on this viewing. I started to notice stuff that I hadn't before.

Two things from the "modern movie" formula that absolutely drive me bonkers are here:

1. random gunshot causing huge explosions. What the fuck is that about? You can't have a gun in a movie anymore without a stray bullet causing something to blow up. I have NEVER seen a stray round cause an explosion in real life.

2. obligatory "orgy of vice" with idiots partying and staging some kind of "feed the woman to something" gladiator bullshit, complete wth some retarded, loud music with the disco beat. Why in hell does every "post-apocalypse" film seem to have this scene?

I also noticed something that isn't infuriating, but rather corny as hell and made me laugh. The goofy little piano jingle that plays every time a zombie "learns something". I hadn't noticed before because I was blinded by hatred of Big Daddy, but I caught it this time. It got to the point where I was saying, "yup, time to go to school" every time I heard the music. It was ridiculous.

So, in closing, I'd like to say that this is not a movie that will somehow seem better than it is after repeated viewings or passing of time.

wow! that's all that bugs you bout the modern zombie flick?:rockbrow:

your a nicer person than i am!;)

not to mention you didn't cuss once about it!:eek:

Oh and yeah BIG "FUCKIN'" DADDY killed Land and any potential that it had to be good!

[darth los]

Land has just been sitting on my shelf forever, still wrapped in celaphane. It's strictly there for collections sake.

"Land of the dead, protecting GAr fans' wood tables from uncitely moisture rings since 2005!" :thumbsup:

I wouldn't be caught "dead" using another coaster! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :lol:

http://matchmyoffer.com/images/zombie_thumbs_up.png

:cool:

[bassman]

Eh....I disagree with all points, really....

[EDukes]

Go to the torrents sites and try to fan the Land of the Dead Fanedit. In my opinion, it's better then the original.

[Trin]

I also noticed something that isn't infuriating, but rather corny as hell and made me laugh. The goofy little piano jingle that plays every time a zombie "learns something". I hadn't noticed before because I was blinded by hatred of Big Daddy, but I caught it this time. It got to the point where I was saying, "yup, time to go to school" every time I heard the music. It was ridiculous.
I'm gonna have to break it out just to watch for this too. Thanks man... thanks...

[kidgloves]

Go to the torrents sites and try to fan the Land of the Dead Fanedit. In my opinion, it's better then the original.

Is this the one thats cut together with another movie? maybe 2?
I suggested this about a year ago and was virtually laughed out of the forum.
Much better than the original. And darker

[bassman]

I believe he's talking about the one that just takes out BD. Which would ruin the film, imo.

[acealive1]

i love land of the dead. period.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Verdict: it still sucks.

.

If you guys would just listen to me I could of saved you 97 minutes of your life. The movie has sucked since 2005, and it ain't going to change one iota in 5 years 10 or 20... It should go down in history as the worst zombie film ever made... yes even worse than Children of the Living Dead because at least with COTLD, you can laugh at the Over the Top stupidity on display

[Legion2213]

I'd rather watch "Land" than "Diary" to be honest.

Sad truth is though, I still haven't watched my Blu-Ray versions of either, they just sit on my shelf looking sorry for themselves. :(

[axlish]

I bought the Blu-ray and couldn't bring myself to sit through it again. Epic fail.

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
As I've often said, while Land isn't a total crapfest, it is the visible beginning of GAR's recent downward spiral. There ARE things I like about Land. The prologue at the beginning. Particularly the orbital view of the lights going dark region by region. I enjoy portions of the atmosphere and actions of that first raiding party we see, and I definitely enjoy the utterly improbable/completely impossible-in-construction Dead Reckoning.

Things I don't enjoy: The preachy message-laden plotline & plot devices. This is a catchall group which includes everything from Cholo's currency-based demand, to every sight of Big Daddy and his Rocky-like frustrated moaning, and the lightspeed-fast education of the other zombies.

Something as simple as "Zombies don't actually work in groups. They just daisy-chain react to the actions of the first ghoul seeing something interesting" was fucked up. The infamous "River Crossing Scene" is a perfect example of the 100% WRONG WAY to portray zombie-horde activities. The thing that makes the concept frightening is the realization that, like undead dominoes falling to strike the next domino is the realization that, despite the writhing mass of pallid rotting flesh, nothing more complex than one zombie sighting potential food and its reaction to/pursuit of that food serving to germinate a horde to pursue the hapless survivors is going on. Ie: The deadly threat being almost mindless is the very putrid SOUL of the zombie horde.

Big Daddy's Sherman-esque march to "burn" the Green blows that all to shit, and simply makes it about retarded humanoids seeking revenge against their neighbors.

No matter where I look in the movie, Romero is doing SOMETHING either a) In total contravention of all previous classic plot devices, or b) Destroying the zombie apocalypse atmosphere of his own movie by making it about Cholo and Big Daddy desiring revenge.

Just to highlight matters: Compare the "I'm gonna try not to come back" scene from Original DAWN to Cholo's (paraphrasing here) "I've always wondered how the other half "lives.""

Just that single comparison goes a long way towards utterly devaluing the horrified realization, the simultaneous acknowledging of mortality and the profound violation of the natural order as represented by undeath/reanimation, and the FEAR of Infection.

In light of elements like these, it's truly no surprise that Land and Diary have failed to capture that somehow timelessness of the Original Trilogy. A structure must rest solidly on its foundation if its to rise high and remain stable. GAR's newer work just does too much to undercut Land in particular, and his most recent Dead films collectively.

I think that may be one reason talk of the Recent Trilogy can turn nasty so easily. GAR created so very many of the plot devices, zombie behavioral truisms etc., and now he's chosen to pitch much of what we learned to love and even expect in a high-quality zombie movie.

He has the RIGHT to do so, absolutely, but it should come as no big shock that radical departures from the atmosphere and movie monster nature GAR himself created has spawned significant amounts of everything from confusion to disappointment, to anger and frustration on the part of many fans in regards to Romero's 3 most recent films.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[JDFP]

I believe he's talking about the one that just takes out BD. Which would ruin the film, imo.

Really? I'd say with the deletion of Big Daddy "Land" could almost be a decent film.

A couple of full nudity scenes with Asia Argento wouldn't have hurt either... ahem...

j.p.

[bassman]

Really? I'd say with the deletion of Big Daddy "Land" could almost be a decent film.


Regardless of the quality of the character, if you take him out the plot would make absolutely no sense....

[DjfunkmasterG]

I bought the Blu-ray and couldn't bring myself to sit through it again. Epic fail.

Should have bought it on HD DVD, it would have only cost you a $1.00 ad gotten the same playback rate as the BR.... NONE! :lol:

[darth los]

Well,

Things I don't enjoy: The preachy message-laden plotline & plot devices. This is a catchall group which includes everything from Cholo's currency-based demand, to every sight of Big Daddy and his Rocky-like frustrated moaning, and the lightspeed-fast education of the other zombies.

Something as simple as "Zombies don't actually work in groups. They just daisy-chain react to the actions of the first ghoul seeing something interesting" was fucked up. The infamous "River Crossing Scene" is a perfect example of the 100% WRONG WAY to portray zombie-horde activities. The thing that makes the concept frightening is the realization that, like undead dominoes falling to strike the next domino is the realization that, despite the writhing mass of pallid rotting flesh, nothing more complex than one zombie sighting potential food and its reaction to/pursuit of that food serving to germinate a horde to pursue the hapless survivors is going on. Ie: The deadly threat being almost mindless is the very putrid SOUL of the zombie horde.

Big Daddy's Sherman-esque march to "burn" the Green blows that all to shit, and simply makes it about retarded humanoids seeking revenge against their neighbors.

We often discuss why it is that the new trilogy is subpar yet can't quite put our finger on it.

However, it is these 2 things that, if you ask most members, come up the most often.

Very well articulated.

:cool:

[Legion2213]

Most of Wyldwraith's posts are well articulated actually. They are always worth a reading.

[darth los]

Imo, the social commentary has always been there.

But what we have in the most recent 3 films are political messages, there's a difference.

that's part of it. Social commentaries are universal truths while political messages are what one man or faction feels about a certain issue and are agenda driven.

That's one thing.

Second, i would even be fine with that if it wasn't for the whole zombie evolution thing. It's a cancer to the series that needs to be cut out.

:cool:

[Legion2213]

Yeah, I prefer my zombies to be "pure motorized instinct".

The odd zombie tooling around with an object out of memory is fine, so long as he totally drops the object the second some fresh meat appears on the scene. Once they start "thinking" they are no longer zombies IMO.

[darth los]

Yeah, I prefer my zombies to be "pure motorized instinct".

The odd zombie tooling around with an object out of memory is fine, so long as he totally drops the object the second some fresh meat appears on the scene. Once they start "thinking" they are no longer zombies IMO.

Exactlly.

They are no longer what we grew up loving.

What's even worse, and this is also what's killing the series, they are no longer scary.

:cool:

[Trin]

I'm going to try to keep this short. *laughs*
Blanket disclaimer. All opinion. You've been warned.

First, I have never bought into the argument that Land will be more accepted as it ages simply because Day did. The basis of the intial criticism between the two movies is very different. Initial criticisms of Day generally center around comparisons to Dawn. Criticisms of Land are very much about failings in Land.

However, I think my opinion of Land *has* improved some over time. Most of that is ignoring the parts of it I hate. Some of it is having Diary and Survival to lower the bar. But nonetheless, it is improvement.

Land has the best opening 15 minutes of any of the Dead movies for me. I just love it all. The setup of the scavengers. The Riley/Cholo conflict. The kid shooting himself outside the liquor store. Charlie. Dead Reckoning. The fireworks. The whole damned thing was so kick ass. It was all the stand up and cheer moments of Dawn on steroids.

On the bad side I still find the plot laced with holes. I still cannot stand that the zombies are no longer monsters. I cringe everytime I see that the prison-like claustrophic city is actually surrounded by miles of empty streets and buildings and NO ZOMBIES.

Big Daddy did not ruin it for me. Nor did the concept of intelligent, learning zombies. I'm okay with that. I hate the way it was done, of course. None of that has changed over time for me.

I do have some newer gripes. My most recent gripe is that the city that apparently survived "since it was a real city" cannot handle a couple hundred stenches who appear at the gates. The scene where the two doofuses are out in the middle of nowhere with their spotlight, followed by the fences getting downed by BD and about 30 zombies, is absolutely unwatchable.

This is a city that has a 24/7 armed military prescence, right? So the guys at the motor pool didn't have walkie-talkies? No way to sound the alarm? This is the city that somehow stayed alive when the HALF A MILLION residents of the area became zombies???

The social commentary doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. Compared to Diary it's like a feather tickle compared to a sledgehammer. Heck, I can watch Land and really not even notice it anymore. It mainly comes out as plot holes or seemingly stupid characters. That actually seems refreshing compared to Diary telling me over and f'in over what I'm supposed to be learning as I watch it.

Another thing I can appreciate about Land in retrospect (thank you f'in Survival)... they never tried to feed the zombies. Yes, there was still a small undercurrent of "let's all live together in peace and harmony" bs, but it wasn't a major theme of the movie.

My main gripe of Land when it came out, and my continuing gripe of Land... it is not the epic ending of the series that it could've been. That it EASILY could've been. With no extra money. No huge changes.

[SRP76]

So Trin, did you notice the "musical cue" for Big Daddy "knowledge" I was talking about?

[Trin]

So Trin, did you notice the "musical cue" for Big Daddy "knowledge" I was talking about?I was basing my post off of my most recent re-watch of Land, which was probably 2 months ago. So, no, but I'm looking very forward to it. :)

[darth los]

Unfortynately this thread is going to make all of s have to watch it again. :(

When i do bring myself to watch it i keep searching for something that will redeem the film for me but i have as of yet been able to find it.

:cool:

[Wyldwraith]

First,
Want to thank Darth @ Legion. It's always nice to be appreciated, especially when you're in a position where it's more difficult to share your feelings and thoughts about what interests you. Thank, means a lot :)

As far as things which redeem Land....: There's a lot of conceptual goodness in the movie. Things that are perfect outgrowths of human behavior/tactics in a zombie world. Ie: Use of "Sky Flowers"/Fireworks to distract the ghouls during supply raids. Has the feel of people adapting to the circumstances they find themselves in, and exploiting the inherent weakness of a known quantity (the zombies.)

The physical overview of the Green itself. The daytime border scenes give it a very Planned-Fortress meets Adapted Cityscape feel. The scene where the guards are watching the lone zombie hit the electric fence as they look out over the blocked-off roads that used to lead into the city is great. Conversely, the scene where Butcher Zombie manages to breach one of these street-barricades in 10-12 blows of an improvised weapon makes me cringe and go "How did this city survive the Dawn '04-type waves of undead flesh at the height of the undead plague if ONE zombie can breach the wall using ANYTHING?"

I agree with Trin about the first fifteen minutes of the movie, but even at that early stage I foresaw lameness in the form of Cholo, his outlook and activities. Cholo is 33% of the Unholy Trinity of Awful Characters that conspired to drag Land down. (BD and Dennis Hopper's character being the other two).

I absolutely CANNOT STAND Riley's whole "They're just looking for a home" bullshit explanation for not blowing the zombies + Big Daddy straight to Hell. ESPECIALLY after his over the top anguish when he sees the zombies gorging on humans inside the Green's borders before blasting them and finding out most of the humans survived.

On the upside, I actually liked the scene with the idiot pair, the spotlight and finding themselves surrounded by zombies. Same goes for the guy left behind by Riley and Co. in the warehouse-type building. He deserved ugly excruciating death for a) smoking and b) WEARING HEADPHONES out in zombie territory. Both scenes were reasonably cool, and a bit of slasher-esque fun.

The biggest problem Land suffers from in the end is its Plot Overview. Even when you strip out all annoying details and offensively bad characters, the plot summary STILL has holes. Ie: "Last human-controlled city survives the zombie apocalypse for years, but is brought down in the end by one zombie leader as smart as your average five year old and a couple hundred cronies who seem more interested in follow-the-leader and monkey see-monkey do than they are in warm human flesh."

To me, THAT is what keeps Land from improving with age. It isn't just the aggravating elements mid-film. The "Zombie Breach Moment, ala Night/Dawn/Day" is an irritating plothole instead of being a chilling example of undead relentlessness.

Trin also made an excellent point about Diary and Survival lowering the bar and making Land look better in comparison. It's not that it actually IMPROVES, it's just that the problems with Diary in particular are so horrifically bad, coming on Land's heels as it does, that Land's problems look more forgivable. Diary and Survival feel so labored that if one had never seen the Savini remake of Night, Original Dawn and Day, it could and probably WOULD seem reasonable that making a GOOD large-scale zombie movie is next-to-impossible. Thus the creation of the forgivable in Land.

The real tragedy of Land IMO is that you can see the occasional glimpse of the Epic Global Zombie Apocalypse Movie we all hunger for. In that respect, Diary and Survival are clean, because at least they have no potential to be anything but bad. God, Diary managed to combine the two things I hate most in movies. Blair Witchy reality-TV-esque style and Triple-Z-grade movie quality.

The best thing about Land is that those too-infrequent glimpses prove conclusively that if he dug deep, Romero is still capable of another epic Dead film.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[shootemindehead]

I've never minded and still don't mind 'land of the Dead'. I think it's a fitting entry into the series. I don't count 'Diary/Survival of the Dead' as anything but complete fuck up's. They're not even on the radar anymore.

Sure there are things in 'Land of the Dead' that annoy me. The "Big Daddy" character is OK in general. I don't mind the "zombies are learning" angle, but only if it's confined. In other words, 1 zombie in a very large multiple. "Big Daddy" however, learns too much too quickly and the biggest issue is that he can teach. That's what drives me up the wall about him. Also, Eugene Clark is just not up to the job in the same way that Howard Sherman was. 'Day of the Dead' handled the "learning" issue very well, I think. You get the feeling that Logan had tried to teach a number of zombies before he got to "Bub". "Bub" responded so well, Logan let him live. Which makes one think how many others did he have to destroy? "Big Daddy", on the other hand, can surround himself with a bunch of pupils all ready and willing to follow his orders and "learn" from him. These "educated" zombies should be few and far between. A phenomenon within a phenomenon if you will. 'Land of the Dead' gives the impression, though, that it's sort of commonplace if the right triggers are present. It's just not a good move on Romero's part.

I didn't find the money angle or Cholo's character too irritating though and was willing to accept him and his motives, even if they were somewhat silly. Kauffman was a little grating, because it's Dennis Hopper. Not, that I don't like Hopper, he just doesn't belong in a zombie film. His inclusion just sort of takes me out of the universe too easily.

The stupid parts of the film annoy me too. The death of the "Mouse" character is just ridiculous. I simply cannot imagine anyone, ANYONE, out in no-man's land choosing to stick on a walkman and ignoring the obvious threat that surrounds him. Although Romero has prior form for including stupid scenes in his films, such as that appalling pie-fight and the "test your blood pressure" scene in 'Dawn of the Dead'.

However, the biggest bugbears for me personally, was the use of modern technology and weaponry in 'Land of the Dead'. Why Romero chose to use flat screen TV's, laptops with perimeter readouts and machine guns from the 90's/00's is beyond me. Perhaps locating M-16's was difficult in Canada? I don't know. But, it takes 'Land of the Dead' out of the original series, when a few tweaks here and there would have made it fit better. The "Dead Reckoning" vehicle itself is somewhat silly too. Besides being way too computerised to fit properly into the original series cannon, why would anyone bother to build such a toy when there would be thousands of unused tanks and aromured cars laying around?

At the end of the day, it was probably simply impossible for Romero to deliver the goods really. The anticipation of the next Dead film in the series was always going to outweigh the experience itself. 'Land of the Dead' should really have been made in the late 80's / early 90's, followed by perhaps a couple of more films in the series in that decade, which could have drawn the original series to a close. As it stands, the film is separated by too much time to really fit into the universe Romero originally created. I think he has since realised this and chose to "re-boot" his zombie world into a more modern timeframe. Unfortunately, the results of that move have been an absolute disaster of epic proportions.

For me Romero's zombie exploits are over. I cannot see him finding his way back onto the "right path", even though the way is certainly open. I just hope and pray that 'The Walking Dead' TV series can take the torch and run with it successfully, although the danger is there for someone to eventually fuck that up as well.

[Trin]

Two back to back great sets of thoughts!!
@Wyld - agree on conceptual goodness, people adapting, physical overview of the Green, how can one zombie breach the defenses, Riley's parting words

disagree - cholo being bad, idiot pair at spotlight, mouse being a cool death,

A few specific points...

The biggest problem Land suffers from in the end is its Plot Overview. Even when you strip out all annoying details and offensively bad characters, the plot summary STILL has holes.

To me, THAT is what keeps Land from improving with age. It isn't just the aggravating elements mid-film. The "Zombie Breach Moment, ala Night/Dawn/Day" is an irritating plothole instead of being a chilling example of undead relentlessness.
This is where the Plot and the Message collide on the tracks like an enormous train wreck. Where you and I see plot holes others see Message and social commentary. Where we see a military that cannot defend a city against your 5 year old intellect zombie, others see the Message that the city has been ignoring the problem and is now lax and ill-prepared. Where you and I might see Cholo doing a big ol WTF over money, others see Cholo as bowing to the Message of Humanity as Greedy over survivalistic.

It's just sad that GAR has forgotten how to integrate message with plausibility to be that "reflection of the times" that made his other movies great.


The real tragedy of Land IMO is that you can see the occasional glimpse of the Epic Global Zombie Apocalypse Movie we all hunger for.
The best thing about Land is that those too-infrequent glimpses prove conclusively that if he dug deep, Romero is still capable of another epic Dead film.Yes, yes, and more YES!!


@shootme - couldn't agree more on the Dead Reckoning technology angle. Who builds GPS and remote controls into an A-Team hacked together metal behemoth?
Disagree on Hopper. I wasn't overly taken with Kaufman, but thought he did well acting it.

To anyone still thinking Land will become a classic with age? How much more time do you need?

[AcesandEights]

@shootme - couldn't agree more on the Dead Reckoning technology angle. Who builds GPS and remote controls into an A-Team hacked together metal behemoth?

I always assumed the GPS locator was a piece of rare, but never the less extant, technology still functioning on what few satellites remained calibrated and in orbit a few years after the outbreak. Not something Riley or anyone in the current era cobbled together, of course.

In that sense, I assume it would be a good decision to build the existing GPS unit into such a valuable piece of hardware, especially given that it seemed like a decision made by Riley (not the most trusting of souls) in a very....let's call it...decentralized command structure.

Now do certain things like the service life of a current era satellite and the little handheld unit Riley runs around with seem like possible Hollywood hockum? Perhaps, but even if it is I can handwave that sort of stuff, especially given the backdrop & fairly fantastical nature of LotD and far more vital issues I had with the film.

In a nutshell, not one of the things that I fixated on and not a sticking point, for me, compared to some of the other warts the film had.

[DEAD BEAT]

"Land of the dead, protecting GAr fans' wood tables from uncitely moisture rings since 2005!" :thumbsup:

I wouldn't be caught "dead" using another coaster! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :lol:

http://matchmyoffer.com/images/zombie_thumbs_up.png

:cool:

Not to mention wiping asses since 2005...just watch out for paper cuts! lol:eek:

---------- Post added at 08:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------


If you guys would just listen to me I could of saved you 97 minutes of your life. The movie has sucked since 2005, and it ain't going to change one iota in 5 years 10 or 20... It should go down in history as the worst zombie film ever made... yes even worse than Children of the Living Dead because at least with COTLD, you can laugh at the Over the Top stupidity on display


Worse than Children?...now that's hittin' below the belt! lol:cool:

[bassman]

Worse than Children?...now that's hittin' below the belt! lol:cool:

Yeah. You can hate it all you want and that's fine, but to say it's the worst out of all zombie films ever made just makes it seem like you're holding some kind of personal grudge against it.

Worst Romero film? Sure...I could see that. Worst Zombie film? GTFO. :p

[darth los]

Yeah. You can hate it all you want and that's fine, but to say it's the worst out of all zombie films ever made just makes it seem like you're holding some kind of personal grudge against it.

Worst Romero film? Sure...I could see that. Worst Zombie film? GTFO. :p

It's not even the worst GAR film.

I don't like it, that's no secret. But i give it shit because mostly because of the shit people give dawn 04' which people also make out to be the worst zombie film ever and in reality it's far from it.

:cool:

[Wrong Number]

It's not even the worst GAR film.

I don't like it, that's no secret. But i give it shit because mostly because of the shit people give dawn 04' which people also make out to be the worst zombie film ever and in reality it's far from it.

:cool:

Now that's just not true. Dawn '04 couldn't be the worst zombie film ever made since it's not even a zombie film. :elol:

WN

[AcesandEights]

Dawn 04 is quite good and quite possibly the best raptor-zombie film made.

[darth los]

Now that's just not true. Dawn '04 couldn't be the worst zombie film ever made since it's not even a zombie film. :elol:

WN


Dawn 04 is quite good and quite possibly the best raptor-zombie film made.

See what i mean? :(

:cool:

[AcesandEights]

See what i mean? :(

:cool:

I'm serious! I really, really like Dawn '04. I've always been up front about that, but it does have a few things worth making fun of (a plot hole or two come to mind and the screechy-screech zombies for instance).

[DEAD BEAT]

Dawn '04 wasn't to bad, it's sure a far cry compared to the shit Day '08!:rockbrow:

[bassman]

See what i mean? :(


:lol: Yeah...

I'm not a huge fan of Dawn04, but the worst zombie film ever it is not. Hell....you guys know how I hate Return of the Living Dead and I can admit its not the worst ever. There's a big difference between disliking something and then something being the worst of it's kind. Sometimes it's not so cut and dry, but in this genre.....there's no debating that there are way too many stinkers out there. It takes a hell of a lot to become the worst zombie film ever and of all these mentioned, none come close.

[dracenstein]

When I watch it now, I 'switch off' during most of the stuff I disagree with and basically watch for the action and gore.

I agree BD is learning too much too quickly and that most of his zombie pack shouldn't be learning.

I like Dennis Hopper's acting in it, but couldn't believe in the power of money staying, the scavenger parties could rob banks and shops and come home with more money than Kaufman had in his whole 'city', but thought Riley was miscast. He was such a 'good looking hero'. A bit more 'weathered' face would have helped and no way he should just have watched the zombie army walk away. They had proved to be too dangerous to allow to exist.

And zombies still holding their instruments long after their 'death'? How many would still have been holding them when the zombies that killed them were coming at them? (Hey, there's zombies coming at me! Let me hug this trombone, that will help!)

EDIT: Got the name right this time (I hope!)

[bassman]

And zombies still holding their instruments long after their 'death'? How many would still have been holding them when the zombies that killed them were coming at them? (Hey, there's zombies coming at me! Let me hug this trombone, that will help!)

They could always "remember" and pick them up later. Bub didn't die with the razor or book, but he recognized how to use them.

[DEAD BEAT]

When I watch it now, I 'switch off' during most of the stuff I disagree with and basically watch for the action and gore.

I agree BD is learning too much too quickly and that most of his zombie pack shouldn't be learning.

I like Dennis Weaver's acting in it, but couldn't believe in the power of money staying, the scavenger parties could rob banks and shops and come home with more money than Kaufman had in his whole 'city', but thought Riley was miscast. He was such a 'good looking hero'. A bit more 'weathered' face would have helped and no way he should just have watched the zombie army walk away. They had proved to be too dangerous to allow to exist.

And zombies still holding their instruments long after their 'death'? How many would still have been holding them when the zombies that killed them were coming at them? (Hey, there's zombies coming at me! Let me hug this trombone, that will help!)

lol Dennis Weaver?:confused:

---------- Post added at 01:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:12 PM ----------


They could always "remember" and pick them up later. Bub didn't die with the razor or book, but he recognized how to use them.

true but Bub didn't give off an annoying scream or call his zombie buddies by nodding his head! lol

Big Daddy in short was no Bub....but your right Bass they did already explore the learning zombie, if you want to go even further the zombie in Dawn '78 that took Rogers gun or the dip shit trying to operate the cash register can also be looked at as a learning dead head as well!;)

[bassman]

true but Bub didn't give off an annoying scream or call his zombie buddies by nodding his head! lol

Big Daddy in short was no Bub....but your right Bass they did already explore the learning zombie, if you want to go even further the zombie in Dawn '78 that took Rogers gun or the dip shit trying to operate the cash register can also be looked at as a learning dead head as well!;)

Actually....I was referring to dracenstein's comment about the band near the beginning of Land. Not so much BD...

[Trin]

Now do certain things like the service life of a current era satellite and the little handheld unit Riley runs around with seem like possible Hollywood hockum? Perhaps, but even if it is I can handwave that sort of stuff, especially given the backdrop & fairly fantastical nature of LotD and far more vital issues I had with the film.
I suppose I'm in the same camp. I can put up with a lot of little things not quite making sense.

However, there does come a point...

Like the people at the electric fences having NO WAY to turn them off. They literally have to call the power station. And assumedly the power station was already overrun even though the zombies had just barely entered the city. It's too bad Cholo never thought to take over the power station. Apparently it was easy pickins.

And won't electric fences pretty much short out if they have a heavy load put on them? Now, let me see, what could possibly be thrown into the fences to overload them? Maybe.... zombie? Seriously, couldn't five able bodied people grab zombies by the outstreched arms and fling them into the electric fences until the things short out?

Or, even better? "Okay, it's a wide street. Let's all stand to the left. When they all shamble over to the left we'll all run really fast to the right and then run past them."

Okay, I'm being nit-picky again.

[DEAD BEAT]

Actually....I was referring to dracenstein's comment about the band near the beginning of Land. Not so much BD...

lol yeah i get you that was pretty lame that they knew not only how to act like they were playing but the fact that they stayed together for however many years they've been dead!lol:hyper:

you know what they say a band that plays together Rots together! lol:lol::clown:

lol they gave meaning to the term...."That band stinks!" zing!

[Danny]

Shit, I don't recall noticing this before, but it sounds bad...may just be time for a re-viewing.

teh maor j00 now.

[DjfunkmasterG]

I hated LAND so much that after our commentary I threw the HD DVD at Lou and said... here, you fucking keep it. :elol:

and he still has it, best beer coaster ever

[darth los]

lol yeah i get you that was pretty lame that they knew not only how to act like they were playing but the fact that they stayed together for however many years they've been dead!lol:hyper:

They certainly wouldn't be the first.

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/08/01/17_rollingstones_lg.jpg

:cool:

[clanglee]

When there are no new topics to write about. . .The HPOTD will beat the dead horse. :D

I . . .just . . . .can't do it. I can't. I don't have the energy. I want to. . I really do. . . .I just can't.

I am gonna have to check out that piano jingle thing though.

[Neil]

when there are no new topics to write about. . .the hpotd will beat the dead horse. :d
lol! :)

[shootemindehead]

I like Dennis Weaver's acting in it,

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.cinematical.com/media/2006/02/dweaver.jpg


He was brilliant in 'Blue Velvet' too.


:D


Sorry, just pulling your leg.

[dracenstein]

Okay! Okay! I got a name wrong...

Apologies!

I don't know where I got the Weaver from.

Gonna edit my original post.

[Trin]

When there are no new topics to write about. . .The HPOTD will beat the dead horse. :D

I . . .just . . . .can't do it. I can't. I don't have the energy. I want to. . I really do. . . .I just can't.

I am gonna have to check out that piano jingle thing though.
Let your love for Big Daddy shine!! You know you want to!!

[triste realtà]

First time I saw Land, right after it was over I said "Well, at least the story was there" trying to think of something positive about it. I like several shots, especially the one where they stop the car and zombies are walking through the woods. When I saw Return of the Evil Dead (Blind Dead 2), I suspected this was where the zombies/fireworks idea was taken from.

Two things that constantly bug me is how DJG hates Land but loves Dawn04 and why Basscunt hates Rotlid. Well, I have theories that they may want to use in their therapy sessions. In the reviews on Netflix for Deadlands 1, someone says Gary hates Land because he went all the way to Canada to be a zombie and was cut from the movie but got on screen in Dawn04 (it was an aha moment from the other night). Basscunt hates Rotlid cause he sees "STORY BY RICCI, RUSSO, STREINER" and wants to defend Romero's honor.:kiss:

[bassman]

Basscunt hates Rotlid cause he sees "STORY BY RICCI, RUSSO, STREINER" and wants to defend Romero's honor.:kiss:[/SIZE]

No, not really. I understand why people love ROTLD. I really do.

I'm not on some crusade to make others join me. Obviously I'm in the minority and that's where it stands. I just personally don't like ROTLD. That doesn't make it the worst zombie film ever, I just don't enjoy it as much as others....

[Trin]

No, not really. I understand why people love ROTLD. I really do.

I'm not on some crusade to make others join me. Obviously I'm in the minority and that's where it stands. I just personally don't like ROTLD. That doesn't make it the worst zombie film ever, I just don't enjoy it as much as others....
I'm in that minority too. I'm also astounded that it IS a minority. ROTLD, like you said, isn't the worst zombie movie, but it just isn't good though either.

[Legion2213]

First time I saw Land, right after it was over I said "Well, at least the story was there" trying to think of something positive about it. I like several shots, especially the one where they stop the car and zombies are walking through the woods. When I saw Return of the Evil Dead (Blind Dead 2), I suspected this was where the zombies/fireworks idea was taken from.

Two things that constantly bug me is how DJG hates Land but loves Dawn04 and why Basscunt hates Rotlid. Well, I have theories that they may want to use in their therapy sessions. In the reviews on Netflix for Deadlands 1, someone says Gary hates Land because he went all the way to Canada to be a zombie and was cut from the movie but got on screen in Dawn04 (it was an aha moment from the other night). Basscunt hates Rotlid cause he sees "STORY BY RICCI, RUSSO, STREINER" and wants to defend Romero's honor.:kiss:

There some good bits in Land, unfortunately, they are overwhelmed by the more numerous bad bits.

[BotOZombie]

I liked Land as a stand alone Zombie film but as most of you have covered it had some real issues. The whole Big Daddy thing gets annoying very very quick I agree, but the thing that stood out to me was when Cholo attacks Hoppers character. The Zombie Cholo looked much more decomposed than Big Daddy after such a short space of time. Also for me the whole Zombies using weapons cocept made them much less scary.

Land clearly isnt a patch on Night, Dawn and Day but is a classic compared to Diary. Diary is so bad I am going to wait until Survival turns up on TV before I watch it.

[EvilNed]

I like Land a lot. It's a great film, great moments in it. I yawn at a lot of criticism that gets thrown it's way, because much of it is (obviously) not warranted. You can tell when someone is honest in their criticism and when someone just makes stuff up because they've decided to hate the film. Like calling Land the worst zombie film ever. Yeah right, give me a break. Maybe it is if you've only seen two films: Day and Land. You get the point.

Still, I understand why some people have a problem with Big Daddy. I personally like him. I dig Eugene Clark in the role (has a fitting appearance) and I can see how that kind of thing would happen.

While I do like my zombies brainless and "pure motorized instict" I kind of dig the slowly learning arc of Romero's films. It's what puts them apart from the rest. I also like moral ambiguity in stories - and Romero has plenty of that.

However, I doubt anyone living in that world would see things quite like that, and the one thing I don't like about Land is how Riley "let's the zombies go at" the end of the film. Don't buy that one.

[Legion2213]

I liked Land as a stand alone Zombie film but as most of you have covered it had some real issues. The whole Big Daddy thing gets annoying very very quick I agree, but the thing that stood out to me was when Cholo attacks Hoppers character. The Zombie Cholo looked much more decomposed than Big Daddy after such a short space of time. Also for me the whole Zombies using weapons cocept made them much less scary.

Like BD rolling his molotov coctail into the garage...Jesus! :rolleyes:

[Trin]

However, I doubt anyone living in that world would see things quite like that, and the one thing I don't like about Land is how Riley "let's the zombies go at" the end of the film. Don't buy that one.
But they are just looking for a place. Aren't we all just pretending to survive? Everyone has a story. Nothing bad ever happened to him, except his brother dying, and that happened to his brother. Things are changing. You learned to make yourself useful, right?

I like Riley, but the over-the-top pithy statements get a bit lame.

[Epidemic79]

Well I do not hate Land,but I dont love it. Its good in some parts,slow & cheesy in others,and lacking hear & there,but clearly not "unwatchable". Unwatchable is turds like Rotld 'RAVE to THE GRAVE'!


Talking zombies with chilling lines like "THIS IS THE PART WHERE YOU GET SCARED"

But is the rumor I heard true,that Big Daddy can do anything???

[SRP76]

But is the rumor I heard true,that Big Daddy can do anything???

Only when the piano plays.

[Epidemic79]

Only when the piano plays.

LMAO!!!

So what are the odds of BD & his stench crew capturing and operating Dead Reckoning?? Providing hes still got John Tesh in his corner playing that piano,could BD actually coordinate a missle strike I wonder......:stunned:

[SRP76]

I was actually afraid that was going to happen the first time I watched the movie. Thank God I was wrong.

[Wyldwraith]

Something that's always bugged me about the invasion of the Green,
As it's portrayed, we see BD lead the main force across the river, after teaching butcher zombie among others about breaching the alley barricade-walls.

So, worst case, we're looking at zombies entering the green from two opposite sides, with masses of humanity in between.

Here's what bugs me. Even assuming that the majority of the population can't access guns/ranged weapons, the Green is clearly inhabited by something like a thousand people minimum. If you count EVERY SINGLE ZOMBIE who set out on BD's Sherman-March to the Green, there are less that ***200***. Prior scenes have established that random, non-BD-affiliated zombies are EXTREMELY RARE at the borders of the Green, so it isn't like you can make the argument that Big Daddy & his "Zombie Delta Force" opened/breached the perimeter, and waves of zombies subsequently flooded in Day-Style.

Supporting my statements, I reference the number of zombies seen at ANY time within the Green's boundaries, and the simple fact that had the breaches of the Green's perimeter NOT been localized, NO ONE in the Green would've survived. Further, zombies increase in lethality under two conditions (generally, there are exceptional circumstances as well). 1) The zombie in question is fresh and/or positioned fortuitously for an ambush attack. (Such as the one suffered by the rookie scavenging team member at the movie's beginning. 2) When the number of zombies begin to outnumber the individual(s) they are targeting as prey.

This second point is critical in my estimation. The invading zombies were EXCEPTIONALLY long-dead. That's bound to further limit mobility, strength, but far more importantly, their senses. Spare me the "Zombie condition retards decay" argument in this instance as inapplicable. While it may in fact retard GENERAL decay of the undead body, unless it is actually out-and-out regenerative, multiple sensory organs will have been SEVERELY compromised by environmental exposure, damage sustained during the initial attack which lead to their reanimation, subsequent damage compounded by zombie instinct completely disregarding all forms of personal bodily injury, or *(critically)* decay of exceptionally vulnerable sensory organs such as the eyes and inner ear-workings.

I feel this is so important, because while the inhabitants of the Green had grown somewhat complacent, they ARE NOT going to be shock/freak-out prone when faced by zombies as humans would be during the initial outbreak/beginning of the phenomena. No matter how complacent the regular non-elite of the Green might have grown, they live in a world where zombies outnumber living humans multiple millions/tens of millions-to-one. A world where events have informed them that the last other conclave of survivors aside from themselves is presumed to have been destroyed due to a months-long inability to raise them on the radio.

So, we have human beings at least moderately acclimated (that assumption is giving the zombies their best-case-scenario), who all understand the fundamentals of the infection, including how to dispatch a zombie (at least conceptually). Said humans are generally employed in what we would currently consider to be blue-collar jobs, many of which would employ a variety of tools that would make adequate improvised weapons versus zombies. Heavy shovels, pickaxes, various hammers, all sorts of construction material including rebar, tire irons from all the abandoned car trunks etc etc.

On the other side, we have a SMALLER force of zombies than the total adult population of the Green. Many of these zombies will be impaired in one or more ways, facing humans that have yes, been caught by surprise, however the zombies aren't fast enough to completely capitalize on that advantage.

I submit that given the nighttime conditions hampering already-impaired zombie vision, and the reek of their first few dozen bunched victims voiding bladders and bowels as they hemorrhage and die (on top of the smell of their own releasing gasses and soft tissue ruptures due to their sudden frenetic burst of movements) hampering the renowned zombie sense of smell, zombie hearing being somewhat impaired, all that remains as a potential means of efficiently locating humans in the Green is the speculated-upon Zombie "Life Sensing" ala NotLD-style that survivors theorize about the explain why zombies converge on human hideouts even with no outward sign of activity.

However, I further submit that even if the living dead do in fact possess some weird "sixth sense" for detecting the living, that this sense is nowhere near as precise as sight, hearing or even smell as regards tracking down human prey. I can just barely buy a "sensitivity to life" that in GENERAL might allow zombies to, say, determine a building if occupied by humans despite the absence of of sensory information of the five normal sorts to indicate as much, but I REFUSE TO ACCEPT that this "potential life-sense" is a precision instrument/capacity, effective in closing with/bearing down on humans in the area.

In other words, zombies might mysteriously know humans are nearby, but they need a five-senses-based sensory cue to close in from "somewhere nearby" to "Eleven steps to my left, hiding inside that fifty gallon drum reeking of old chemicals as quiet as a mouse that's gone to ground".

Under these conditions, it is not only unlikely that Big Daddy and his couple hundred zombies would inflict more than say, 10% total casualties before they and the newly reanimated victims were eliminated and the perimeter breaches sealed, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE, even without Dead Reckoning and Riley & Co. as support.

Assuming otherwise moves beyond a movie plot-hole IMHO, and into the realm of the patently absurd.

Comments?

[Trin]

Assuming otherwise moves beyond a movie plot-hole IMHO, and into the realm of the patently absurd.

Comments?
It moves into the realm of forcing message over plot.

Consider the residents of the Green who run around in panic at the sight of Big Daddy and crew breaking through the glass. Logic would point to these people having survived the initial outbreak, thus they MUST have some zombie fighting skills. That's pretty well your basic contention. But the message that people are ignoring the problem and clinging to the old ways demands that they have forgotten those skills. Who wins? Obviously GAR was putting message over plot logic.

Where it becomes even more exaggerated is the military. How can the message demand that the people in charge of protecting the city have lost or forgotten their basic zombie survival skills? The fences breached and guardposts abandoned in the first wave of zombies? That's the message taking the plot into patently absurd.

Btw, what would make us think that more than 10% of the population was killed by the zombies? Mulligan and crew were assembled and fighting back. Riley was rolling out of town, the situation under control. It's anyone's guess how many residents were asleep in their beds inside the Green. Or still inside the bar betting on zombie fights. We really didn't see that much carnage.

Was there evidence of life-seeking sensors? It seemed to me that the zombies pretty much streamed in and went after whatever they saw moving. With the exception of BD who went for Kaufman. Who he saw and was shot by. When Kaufman was done and the low-hanging fruit started to dry up they left.

[Legion2213]

There is also the fact that a population that had watched pretty much the entire planet wiped out by walking dead wouldn't be stupid enough to rely on a single electric fence for protection...I mean, no real, solid walls as back up?

I bet that real zombie holocaust survivors would understand the need for redundancy and secondary defences.

[DEAD BEAT]

Okay! Okay! I got a name wrong...

Apologies!

I don't know where I got the Weaver from.

Gonna edit my original post.

easy mistake they worked together a lot in the past ....plus now that i saw the pic they kinda resembled each other as well! lol:lol:

---------- Post added at 09:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------


They certainly wouldn't be the first.

http://nymag.com/images/2/daily/entertainment/08/01/17_rollingstones_lg.jpg

:cool:


ha ha ha...you got me there dude! lmao:hyper::lol:;)

[darth los]

There is also the fact that a population that had watched pretty much the entire planet wiped out by walking dead wouldn't be stupid enough to rely on a single electric fence for protection...I mean, no real, solid walls as back up?

I bet that real zombie holocaust survivors would understand the need for redundancy and secondary defences.


GAr has always loved flimsy defenses.

Paper Mache' wall in the mall anyone? :rolleyes:

:cool:

[BillyRay]

There is also the fact that a population that had watched pretty much the entire planet wiped out by walking dead wouldn't be stupid enough to rely on a single electric fence for protection...I mean, no real, solid walls as back up?

I bet that real zombie holocaust survivors would understand the need for redundancy and secondary defences.

Right, but then why didn't they put up a better fence around the compound in Day? With a set-up for grabbing "test subjects" so they wouldn'y have to 'sleep next to the things' (or have dozens of zeds between them and the only alternate means of escape)

[Trin]

Yeah, Day is really the one where you have to start taking offense.

In Dawn they put a lot of thought into the external defenses. The doors, locks, alarms, and trucks. Hardly half-assed. The little wall they built was a decoy, not a barrier. They were also never expecting to stay in the mall long-term.

But Day just has no excuse. They knew they were staying long term. They let the zombies get so thick at the gates that there was danger of them getting inside. And why were they rounding them up outside only to put them in a pen inside? Why not just go grab a few extra at the gates? They really needed to keep the population down outside.

[Legion2213]

They did talk about "thining them out" at the main fence as if it was something they regularly did in "Day".

Then again, the whole operation was a bit of an "ad-hoc" job as I recall, so no real chance for the military to slam some concrete barriers into place.

I think it was more "last ditch" than a well planned "long term" operation.

[darth los]

They really needed to keep the population down outside.


That's one of my big gripes with dawn, but also show's people's obsession with material things.

They were in the mall for about 5 months and the things they chose not to do are astounding. Thinning out the herd is one of them.

I disagree that they had no plans to stay at the mall long term. Where else were they going to go? Canada and shack up with mo? :lol:

It certainly wasn't shown in the film that they had plan to leave the mall at any point. If they were, why defend it so hard when the biker's came.

They had a huge stockpile of ammo just sitting there and it never crossed their mnds that maybe it might be a good idead to keep their numbers down just in case?

:cool:

[Legion2213]

There was obviously some sort of fuel source for the trucks as well. Molotovs ahoy! :D

[darth los]

There was obviously some sort of fuel source for the trucks as well. Molotovs ahoy! :D

Perhaps molotovs weren't the way to go as they probably had better use for the fuel. They had bullets after all but i take your point.


There was plenty they could have done. Instead they were too busy enjoying their consumers paradise to really care about what was going on outside.

:cool:

[Wyldwraith]

Agree with multiple points made,
Will start with Day, since it's the older movie. A scientific research team, working under the auspices of a military escort important enough to merit a Major as the commanding officer, during the peak of the zombie apocalypse sets up camp in an old bunker.

Around that bunker we have a SINGLE chain-link fence, which is somehow still standing despite the hundreds of zombies and thousands of overall poundage pressing against it, is considered adequate base defense?

By who, a minimum-security corrections officer accustomed to babysitting white collar criminals? It reaches the realm of the absurd when both scientists and military recognize that allowing the zombies to work themselves into a frenzy by too much human surface activity could lead to a comprehensive perimeter breach. Despite this danger, and corresponding threat, the military assigned to provide security/protection spends its surface time burying bodies and otherwise dicking around, while the scientists draw every damned zombie for miles, and work every on-scene zombie into a fever pitch with the takeoffs and landings of the helicopter.

In a dead world, absent all the background sounds of bustling humanity, the noise made by the helicopter could be heard and directionally identified even by ghouls miles away from actually SEEING the chopper, let alone all the zombies who see it fly overhead and trot along after it in the direction the helicopter went.

Forget Miguel's insanity. Any ten year old would've known relying on that single line of fencing was tantamount to suicide. The soldiers don't have enough ammo to appreciably affect the number of ghouls at the fence? Fine, jab the motherfuckers in the eye with spear-like implements pushed through the openings in the fence. God know the zombies were packed in so tight that those nearest the fence probably had imprints of said fence-wires all over their skin from being pressed against it by waves of zombies behind them. They'd literally be all-but-immobile targets.

How many zombies can you spear dead through the fence with six men over a period of say, three hours? Answer: Hannibal of Carthage, having double-enveloped the Roman legions at the Battle of Cannae until the Roman lines were packed so tightly together that the Romans could not effectively move their extremities for want of room to move in. Having more than thirty thousand trained soldiers rendered immobile to an equivalent level as the zombie lines pressed against the fence, Hannibal slaughtered **30,000*** soldiers in about THREE HOURS with a half to a third as many men.

Surely a ghoul in an equally compromised position of immobility is easier to render truly dead than a living soldier in armor with phalanx-style shields? Yes, the military presence at the Day bunker was VASTLY outnumbered by the ghouls at the fence, but they could strike at leisure, learn to optimize their Through-the-Fence Elimination Techniques risk-free, rest as needed, and retire to safety when sufficiently fatigued.

If a military man only terminates one ghoul every sixty seconds (sixty seconds being an eternity in melee combat), that's six ghouls a minute with six men working on it. 30 destroyed ghouls in five minutes, 60 in 10, 120 in 20, 240 in 40, 480 in 80, 960 in 160 minutes and 1920 eliminated ghouls in 320 minutes, or 5 hours and 20 minutes.

Think about that. Nearly 2,000 ghouls downed every 5 and 1/3 hours. Yes, the work would be strenuous and stressful, especially in Florida heat and choking humidity I know all too well as a longtime resident of the state, but even if this Six Man Team can only manage 5 hours and 20 minutes total in a 24hour period, that's still approximately 13,300 eliminated ghouls per WEEK.

53,200 terminated ghouls in 28 days. Hell, THERE'S an effective means of defense for the bunker. A wall of zombies waist high and multiple feet thick.

If you kept at it, and the zombies just kept coming on stupidly ahead, just how long would it take to either a) Kill so many damned zombies that the remaining zombies can't even SEE inside the fenceline, or b) eliminate the vast majority of mobile ghouls drawn to the bunker fenceline.

When you only frame the debate in terms of using a limited non-renewable resource (bullets) to eliminate zombies you're talking attrition, and attrition is the zombie's strength. Move matters into elimination of zombies via an easily renewable resource (human stamina) and the number of reanimated bodies becomes the finite non-renewable resource.

Thoughts?

[Legion2213]

I don't suppose it would've have hurt to do some herd-thinning with the plentyfull supply of ammo they had...And besides, shooting zombies must be fun. :)

---------- Post added at 07:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:57 PM ----------

Wyld, the problem there is that wall of dead stenches becomes a nice little ladder for the remaining zombies to clamber up and flop over the fence.

Thems some brutal equations though. :D

[DEAD BEAT]

And to think BD drama could have been ended with 1 little zap to the head!:stunned:

I'd shoot his ass he's a disgrace to his zombie race!:moon:

[darth los]

I don't suppose it would've have hurt to do some herd-thinning with the plentyfull supply of ammo they had...And besides, shooting zombies must be fun. :)[COLOR="Silver"]

And it was a chance for peter to get off with that "super gun" (I believe that's what the novel calls it) that he had a hard on for since he first laid eyes on it. :lol:

:cool:

[Legion2213]

And it was a chance for peter to get off with that "super gun" (I believe that's what the novel calls it) that he had a hard on for since he first laid eyes on it. :lol:

:cool:

"the end of crime" :sneaky:

[Wyldwraith]

@Legion:
I've considered the danger of destroyed zombie bodies forming an effective means over the fence, and rejected it as a major threat for several reasons.

Human bodies AREN'T easy to either pile up, or climb over. If you've ever watched the Heritage museums footage of some of the incredibly extreme circumstances various Holocaust survivors lived through, one of the most horrifying and obviously traumatic were those individuals that, for whatever reason, were believed dead by the Nazis and consigned to an open mass grave while still alive.

One of the most horrifying aspects of their testimony, particularly the few comparatively healthy-at-time-of-liberation large male survivors who suffered such a trauma was the helplessness they felt after regaining consciousness with several corpses on top of them. The words they keep using are synonyms for Helplessness. Statements like "It seems crazy, but it took me hours to move the lightest corpses enough for me to wriggle out...I felt so helpless, as the bodies kept pressing down on me, limiting my movement and almost seeming to resist manipulation. It was almost like they didn't WANT me to escape the pit they never would."

I would NEVER make light of such a horrifying series of Crimes Against Humanity that comprise Hitler's and his followers' "Final Solution." I am DEEPLY honored to have grandfathers on BOTH sides that were BOTH in various ways involved with either the liberation of Death Camp Survivors, or their subsequent medical treatment and transport out of the war zone.

My maternal grandfather was with the 42nd Infantry, Seventh Army when they liberated the survivors of Dachau, while my paternal grandfather (a bastard almost as evil as the Nazis and his son, my biological father) was Russian on his father's side and Lithuanian on his mother's side. He was a Red Army grunt, which is all I know, other than at some point he says his unit was involved in escorting female Survivors from an Auschwitz sub-camp that housed only women prisoners to an "Allied Field Hospital" (no idea about any other details on him).

All of that said, I've done a lot of reading and watching/listening to the Oral History of Holocaust Survivors preserved So We May Never Forget. Among the grisly details, I discovered there's a simple reason mass-graves exist. Human bodies, especially those of radically different physical dimensions are all but impossible to pile more than 2, 3-deep at the maximum on level ground. Evil bastards who commit such crimes apparently discovered this fact, and resorted to using pits or natural depressions to contain the bodies of their victims.

In fact, I incredulously read a transcript of one of the post-WWII Nazi trials, in which the camp guard expressed only irritation at the "extreme difficulty of descending into and maneuvering within a mass grave to conduct searches or retrieve this or that."

My point is that a) Bodies don't stack like cordwood. You can't pile them up like snapping together Lincoln Logs, and they're a treacherous, incredibly unstable surface to move across. If a live human being finds such movement incredibly difficult, I submit a ghoul would find it impossible to mimic the feat, owing to their poor balance and inability to plan their movements. b) Even if you DID end up with a mass of corpses sufficiently stable and easy to clamber atop by zombies, the inherent instability of corpses laying atop each other would make it all but effortless to push over any potentially dangerous corpse-mounds with long pipes or some other similar implement capable of doing the job by being pushed through the openings in the fence.

Other than these two points, there's also the matter of zombies sustaining serious extremity damage while trying to clamber over bodies. An undead foot slips, the ghouls legs plunges down between four bodies, two atop the other two, and falling forward while its leg is immobilized could easily resort in the sort of multiple compound fractures that will severely inhibit the ghoul's ability to use that leg. The same scenario could easily cause widespread extremity damage to the zombies trying to clamber over their terminated cousins lying two-deep in nearly all places, and three-deep here or there.

Trying to climb a fence taller than you are with barbed wire at the top simply won't work for a zombie.

Besides, the potential danger of killing so many zombies at the fence-line that you propose is easily countered by dragging some of those old tires over to the fence, hoisting them up and over the fence after drenching them in gasoline, dropping them atop the bodies on the zombies side of the fence, and then igniting the tires by pushing a long makeshift torch through the fence to reach the tires.

I assure you, burning tires WILL cremate many of the bodies lying adjacent to said burning tire to such a large extent that huge portions of the bodies will actually be reduced to ash. This effect could be made more pronounced by dousing the to-be-burned corpses with something flammable as well, and then hoisting more and more flammable material over the fence and onto the tire fire. The resulting pyre could physically remove dozens if not hundreds of bodies in an amazingly short amount of time, using little more than junk aside from the accelerant used.

Yes, it's disturbing I've given mass corpse-elimination this much thought ;)

[darth los]

"the end of crime" :sneaky:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Let's not start that again! :lol:

Even though that's exactly what he says. :sneaky:

:cool:

[Trin]

I disagree that they had no plans to stay at the mall long term. Where else were they going to go? Canada and shack up with mo? :lol:

It certainly wasn't shown in the film that they had plan to leave the mall at any point. If they were, why defend it so hard when the biker's came.
I thought that Fran kinda shook them out of their daze and they decided to move on. They showed them packing the helicopter. I thought they specifically addressed leaving the mall late in the movie, but I may be wrong.

[MoonSylver]

I thought that Fran kinda shook them out of their daze and they decided to move on. They showed them packing the helicopter. I thought they specifically addressed leaving the mall late in the movie, but I may be wrong.

Nope, you're correct. That appears to have been the plan, although ONE of them apparently wasn't ready to give the place up yet...;)

[Wyldwraith]

What,
I didn't get even ONE response to my theory that no matter how many zombies might have been killed at the Day fenceline, it would be either impossible for zombies to climb them to get over the fence, and/or incredibly easy for the defenders to push over any dangerously high corpse-mounds from safety?

C'mon, I gave that one a good deal of thought Legion.

[AcesandEights]

What,
I didn't get even ONE response to my theory that no matter how many zombies might have been killed at the Day fenceline, it would be either impossible for zombies to climb them to get over the fence, and/or incredibly easy for the defenders to push over any dangerously high corpse-mounds from safety?

C'mon, I gave that one a good deal of thought Legion.

To be fair, I purposefully avoided any comment about your post that mentioned the holocaust and some of your family history that you included. It was a bit heavy and I distinctly thought of feeling like the dude with that dancing dog act that was following up after the Beatles and steered away from a follow up post, as I didn't want to post anything disrespectful on the subject matter.

[darth los]

Nope, you're correct. That appears to have been the plan, although ONE of them apparently wasn't ready to give the place up yet...;)


I thought that Fran kinda shook them out of their daze and they decided to move on. They showed them packing the helicopter. I thought they specifically addressed leaving the mall late in the movie, but I may be wrong.

If anyone can pinpoint where it is that they made plans to leave the mall I'd love to see it. I've been watching that film for 25 years and i have no idea what you're talking about.

Packing the helicopter with supplies is prudent but doesn't prove they had plans to leave the mall. It was just a contigency until proven otherwise.

:cool:

[DEAD BEAT]

ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS...LAND OF THE DEAD?

"PROTECTING TABLE TOPS FROM UNSIGHTLY RINGS SINCE 2005!"

& "WIPING ASSES SINCE 2007!" (the latter being that owning it for 2 years will give you the shits over & over again!);):rockbrow::moon:

[Legion2213]

If anyone can pinpoint where it is that they made plans to leave the mall I'd love to see it. I've been watching that film for 25 years and i have no idea what you're talking about.

Packing the helicopter with supplies is prudent but doesn't prove they had plans to leave the mall. It was just a contigency until proven otherwise.

:cool:

The teaching Fran to fly and loading up "da choppah" all comes after Frans impassioned plea to their common sense when she talks about it all "being wrapped up neat and tidy" or whatever it was. We can assume that some plans to leave are being made to move on.

Fuck, I've realised that my "Dawn recall" is getting a bit fuzzy...time for a refresher course via blu-ray I think. :)

[BillyRay]

If I recall, the very act of them loading the chopper is what gets the attention of the raiders...

[bassman]

I'm with Darth that there were never any plans to leave. The stocking of the chopper was for emergency situations and Fran learning to fly is because of what she says - "If anything were to happen to you, we've got to be able to fly that thing out of here".

As for the raiders - I thought they first see the mall/chopper when Fran's taking her lessons?

[Trin]

I don't believe that they decided to pack the chopper with stuff MONTHS after they took over the mall as a CONTINGENCY.

I'll have to watch it again too. There was something more than just the packing of the chopper that made me think that, and it's been discussed here before too.

[darth los]

If I recall, the very act of them loading the chopper is what gets the attention of the raiders...

Yes, that would seem to be the case.


The teaching Fran to fly and loading up "da choppah" all comes after Frans impassioned plea to their common sense when she talks about it all "being wrapped up neat and tidy" or whatever it was. We can assume that some plans to leave are being made to move on.

Fuck, I've realised that my "Dawn recall" is getting a bit fuzzy...time for a refresher course via blu-ray I think. :)

Fran wanted to learn to fly because she was thinking ahead. She thought it would be a good idea to learn if something happened to flyboy, which showed great forsight.

Plus, they wouldn't let her play their reindeer games, so she figured out another way to be useful.

She mentions her suggestion that they go to canada, but at no point after they've settled in the mall did they explicitly make plans to leave the mall.

And to finish the line "you don't realize it's a prison too." But that's not saying let's get the hell out of here." It can also be interpreted, as she said as well," what have we done to ourselves."

But she was pretty much bitching the whole movie so ya...

As we have done in the past we can interpret events from the films any number of ways and you're free to interpret them anyway you like but you still have not concretely demonstrated that leaving the mall was their sure fire plan.

Edit*: Also, does anyone here think that leaving the mall with fran just about ready to pop was a good course of action?

And then after she gave birth, providing she survives, would it be a good idea to lug around a crying, needy baby?

That alone would make a good case for staying at the mall long term.

:cool:

[bassman]

If some people consider them packing the chopper as a sign that they're definitely going to leave the mall....what about the room being given that home feeling? Why would they spend the time to turn the room into a home if they were planning on leaving all along?

Packing the chopper was definitely a back up plan. They never intended to leave until the bikers showed up and Stephen led the zombies up...

[Legion2213]

But after the big row, Fran looked dead happy (for once) when they were loading up the whirly bird, like women do when they've nagged you until you give in. :rant:

Ah, this is the eternal beauty of Dawn...always something to argue about. :D

[darth los]

I don't believe that they decided to pack the chopper with stuff MONTHS after they took over the mall as a CONTINGENCY.

I'll have to watch it again too. There was something more than just the packing of the chopper that made me think that, and it's been discussed here before too.

Again, we have to operate on what do we know. (The film even says so. ;))

All we know is what we saw. we saw her pack 1 box of ammo into the chopper. No food, water or other survival supplies. That wouldn't make for a very long trip.

Also, it could just be that when stephen got around to teaching her to fly that's when they decided putting ammo in the chopper was a good idea, because there was no indication that they even touched the chopper other than those lessons in the 4-5 months after roger passed.

:cool:

[bassman]

This packing the chopper thing got me thinking. I'm sure it's been covered before, but do helicopters take diesel fuel? If so....there seemed to be an awful lot of that around in the trucks....

[darth los]

This packing the chopper thing got me thinking. I'm sure it's been covered before, but do helicopters take diesel fuel? If so....there seemed to be an awful lot of that around in the trucks....

I believe there was and it was said by someone that choppers use a different kind of fuel. I'll need to research that myself to find out fo' sho' tho.

:cool:

[Legion2213]

Thought all flying things used "aviation fuel".

Otherwise, they'd be putting down at any old petrol station to top up wouldn't they?

[bassman]

Thought all flying things used "aviation fuel".

Otherwise, they'd be putting down at any old petrol station to top up wouldn't they?

After doing a bit of research it looks like you're right. I know nothing about avation, but it seems to me that they could make a chopper that would run on diesel.

Anyway....forget all that. I was just thinking - Why didn't they use the fuel from the trucks?!?:lol:

[darth los]

Thought all flying things used "aviation fuel".

Otherwise, they'd be putting down at any old petrol station to top up wouldn't they?

I believe that exctly what was said.

See? You're right about one thing atleast. :p:lol:

:cool:

[Legion2213]

I believe that exctly what was said.

See? You're right about one thing atleast. :p:lol:

:cool:

I called it man...I called it! :cool:

[Trin]

Again, we have to operate on what do we know. (The film even says so. ;))

All we know is what we saw. we saw her pack 1 box of ammo into the chopper. No food, water or other survival supplies. That wouldn't make for a very long trip.
I'll tell you what I saw. I saw a group sitting around the mall entertaining themselves. Then a very pissed off Fran gives the "what have we done to ourselves" line, and then the very next scene a very satisfied looking Fran is watching Stephen pack the chopper with what is more than 1 box of ammo. (We actually see two boxes go in and it's full at that point).

I've seen that look before folks. That's a woman who beat her man down until she got her way. I'm with Legion on that one.

They were preparing to leave.

One thing I did notice during this brief rewatch, and I'd love to spark some discussion on this... during the "what have we done to ourselves" scene Fran also says, "There hasn't been a broadcast for 3 days." She was late in the pregnancy (I'd guess 6-7 months). That implies that months into it they were still seeing broadcasts?? I never quite picked up on that before.

[SRP76]

One thing I did notice during this brief rewatch, and I'd love to spark some discussion on this... during the "what have we done to ourselves" scene Fran also says, "There hasn't been a broadcast for 3 days." She was late in the pregnancy (I'd guess 6-7 months). That implies that months into it they were still seeing broadcasts?? I never quite picked up on that before.

Yup. Figure wherever they were broadcasting from was heavily guarded at first, and it took awhile for the dead to overrun it. Might have even been from an early "rescue station" that they got a head start on the dead with.

[Yojimbo]

Cold War era government shelters had the capability of broadcating via television, so maybe they were getting sporadic government broadcasts from some underground bunker somewhere with the president smiling and saying "Hang in there, citizens, we are just about to turn the tide in our favor" Or maybe even a prerecorded and looped PSA about not getting bitten by zombies.

---------- Post added at 02:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 PM ----------




I've seen that look before folks. That's a woman who beat her man down until she got her way. I'm with Legion on that one.



I too agree with legion and trin, having seen that look myself on a number on occasion over the past ten years from my wife.

[bassman]

So we're basing our thoughts on cold war era theories and that women control our thoughts? Guys...time for greener pastures. :stunned::p:lol:

[clanglee]

Ok, so rewatched the fist half of Land the other day and I'll be damned if SRP isn't right about the piano tune whenever Big Daddy learns something. It's not a jangle, so much as a two chord switch. . but it is SO there. God, now that I have heard it. . it DOES make things worse. . .bah. And just when I was finally able to turn the brain off and enjoy the movie. . .alas.

[SRP76]

Ok, so rewatched the fist half of Land the other day and I'll be damned if SP isn't right about the piano tune whenever Big Daddy learns something.

Would I lie to you?

[bassman]

Jebush.....you people are just noticing the BD theme? Honestly....do people pay attention to movies anymore, or is it all about the wikipedia/imdb?:p I remember noticing the theme on the first theater showing back in 05. I don't see how you could miss it considering it's really different from the rest of the score. I like it, though...

[Legion2213]

I think a lot of people in the "Land Haterrrz" camp just mentally switch off when the growling one is on screen to be honest...hence the missing of any small details associated with him.

[clanglee]

Jebush.....you people are just noticing the BD theme? Honestly....do people pay attention to movies anymore, or is it all about the wikipedia/imdb?:p I remember noticing the theme on the first theater showing back in 05. I don't see how you could miss it considering it's really different from the rest of the score. I like it, though...

I've never really noticed scoring before. . .which is the way it is supposed to be. It is supposed to be so integral to the movie that it is not supposed to be noticed. Having said that. . .now that I notice the Big Daddy Theme. . .it's pretty funny really. . .like sensitive music for sensitive zombies.

[Trin]

When we were having the initial round of Land love vs. hate wars I went back and watched Land just to listen to the music (since there was a lot of "music sucked compared to Dawn" talk). And I never noticed this jingly little learning phenomenon.

I guess we know what Dr. Logan was playing to Bub on that cassette recorder. :lol:

[darth los]

I think a lot of people in the "Land Haterrrz" camp just mentally switch off when the growling one is on screen to be honest...hence the missing of any small details associated with him.

Or they just avoid they whole clusterfuck and don't watch it anymore.

:cool:

[Legion2213]

They see me rollin'

http://www.nefariousfilms.com/Images/Monsters/Big%20Daddy.jpg

They hatin'

:D

[darth los]

They see me rollin'

http://www.nefariousfilms.com/Images/Monsters/Big%20Daddy.jpg

They hatin'

:D

Very apt line considering he's riding dirty. ;)

And stinky for that matter. :lol:

:cool: