Good, but overrated

[DubiousComforts]

it´s just me or i think this is a little overating here.
It's way overrated. If any other dead film had the lead character making as many stupid mistakes as TWD's Rick Grimes, the fans would be screaming for their pound of flesh. The pilot was okay, and of course, there's no good reason not to see how it all plays out, but does anyone seriously care if any of these characters survive?

[MoonSylver]

http://www.stonerforums.com/lounge/members/osprey-albums-images-interwebs-some-my-stuff-too-picture6669-incoming.jpg

[DubiousComforts]

Ha! But this is the type of reply that i'd expect...

http://blog.cornerstorkbabygifts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/baby-crying.jpg

[thxleo]

Ha! But this is the type of reply that i'd expect...

http://blog.cornerstorkbabygifts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/baby-crying.jpg

You are in rare form this evening, Jim. LOL I laughed out loud when I saw that reply.

I must disagree though, and that's only because I'm such a fan of Frank Darabont. The man can do no wrong! I will admit that there were parts in the first 3 episodes I've seen that I didn't completely care for, but as a whole I've really loved the show so far.

[DubiousComforts]

Hey, how did you see three episodes already? ;)

I seriously didn't care for any of the characters. What did you find to be engaging about them? The most interesting would be the father and son that save Grimes' butt. Although they demonstrate the ability to survive without any training or superior weapons, Grimes decides to fly solo and nearly gets himself killed. WTF?

Another aspect that just occurred to me: the music is terrible and uneven as though the filmmakers couldn't decide a clear direction. The pop song was completely inappropriate at the end, though may have possibly worked for the opening credits. The best music by far, however, was during the roadblock at the beginning. That should have been used as the series' theme if they'd had more guts to be less conventional.

[ProfessorChaos]

DC, i gotta disagree with you on this; with all due respect, i think you've got your fanboy hat on a little too tight and it's affecting your thinking....romero's earlier works are good, but he's a terrible director compared to darabont. there's more emotion in those 2 scenes with morgan trying to put down his wife and rick putting bicycle girl out of her misery than any single romero film in its entirety.

blame it on budget, acting, whatever you want, but it's all a matter of opinion, and it seems the majority of opinions point towards the fact that romero's been dethroned. of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion and you've made yours clear, but i don't think you're gonna find many who are in agreement.

by the way, aside from going further into the city once it became obvious that it was overrun with the dead and crawling under the tank once he was about to get devoured, what sort of mistakes did rick make in the pilot?

[thxleo]

Hey, how did you see three episodes already? ;)

I seriously didn't care for any of the characters. What did you find to be engaging about them? The most interesting would be the father and son that save Grimes' butt. Although they demonstrate the ability to survive without any training or superior weapons, Grimes decides to fly solo and nearly gets himself killed. WTF?

Another aspect that just occurred to me: the music is terrible and uneven as though the filmmakers couldn't decide a clear direction. The pop song was completely inappropriate at the end, though may have possibly worked for the opening credits. The best music by far, however, was during the roadblock at the beginning. That should have been used as the series' theme if they'd had more guts to be less conventional.

I agree about the song at the end, that was one issue I had. It was jarring the first time I watched it.

What did I find engaging about the characters? That's an excellent question. To be honest, I'm really not sure. I just know that I love the idea of watching a group of people thrown into such a desperate situation and seeing how they react. The same way Romero approached his stories, the whole pressure cooker thing. It fascinates me. I know that's probably not a really good answer, but what can I say? I found myself wanting the next episode to start immediately after the previous one ended. I just simply enjoyed it.

As for seeing the first 3 episodes, I was fortunate enough to be placed on the media/press list for screeners. :)

[triste realtà]

The most interesting would be the father and son that save Grimes' butt.

I watched from the shovel to the face to the dinner scene and that's all I saw. The source material could have been titled Zombies for Dummies. I find Nicotero zombie makeup monotonous.

[DubiousComforts]

It's great that you enjoyed the pilot, Prof., and I don't wish to take anything away from that enjoyment. Critiquing TWD has nothing to do with Romero, however, and the series should be able to stand on its own merits. It was good and I'll tune in again, but in no way shape or form was it brilliant. I've based my viewpoint on what was shown and not on what I've read in TWD comic, on any comparisons to Romero's past work, good or bad, and certainly not on whether anyone agrees with me.

I also love Frank Darabont's work, but would never think to concern myself with who happens to be reigning "king" of zombie moviedom. Come on, wouldn't you agree that's best left to the real fanboys? ;)

I liked the father and son characters, and Morgan clearly had the strongest scene in the pilot. Their story is interesting and you want to see them survive, but lo and behold, the "hero" has already left them behind. The bicycle girl corpse, on the other hand, was just silly and Grimes' dialog made putting her down even sillier. What was his attachment to this particular dead thing? Grimes gave less of a crap about one of his own deputies. He didn't even show one-tenth of concern before blowing the little girl away. Did he become numb to it all? There was also nothing about the bicycle girl that elicited sympathy; she just looked like an effect in which they were trying really hard to hide the fact that there was a human being under the make-up. Being reminded that dead are/were human beings is important.

Grimes was a real dingleberry considering his foresight to caution a distracted deputy at the road block. He turned his back on an overturned car with armed criminals, he carelessly wandered into a gas station/rest stop (without his weapon drawn) where it would be very easy to be taken by surprise; he openly approaches an unfamiliar house while calling out to the occupants inside without any idea if they may be alive, armed and want to blow his head off; he rides a horse directly into a city even though prior experience should have to told him the animal could become easily startled and impossible to control if panicked. Why didn't they take turns showering so that at least one person was on guard the entire time? Very lazy screenwriting that did little to intensify the threat of the undead. It actually takes away from the suspense.

On a related note, I really like those dead that looked like regular people with tortured expressions (one of them was crawling under the tank). The Kevin Bacon-looking walker was great (again, because it had human expression), but what I didn't care for was the white, pale faces sporting healthy flesh-tone necks.

Oh yeah... absolutely horrible, horrible, horrible suggestion that Romero direct any episodes of TWD. You'd think nobody has ever viewed his films to know that this one is simply not his style.


DC, i gotta disagree with you on this; with all due respect, i think you've got your fanboy hat on a little too tight and it's affecting your thinking....romero's earlier works are good, but he's a terrible director compared to darabont. there's more emotion in those 2 scenes with morgan trying to put down his wife and rick putting bicycle girl out of her misery than any single romero film in its entirety.

blame it on budget, acting, whatever you want, but it's all a matter of opinion, and it seems the majority of opinions point towards the fact that romero's been dethroned. of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion and you've made yours clear, but i don't think you're gonna find many who are in agreement.

by the way, aside from going further into the city once it became obvious that it was overrun with the dead and crawling under the tank once he was about to get devoured, what sort of mistakes did rick make in the pilot?

---------- Post added at 12:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 AM ----------


As for seeing the first 3 episodes, I was fortunate enough to be placed on the media/press list for screeners. :)
You bastadge! :D As I've said, I don't wish to deride anyone's enjoyment of the series thus far. If TWD has made some of friends here happy, then that is good enough for me. :) I started this thread to offer a dissenting critique so that the intelligent viewers here might wish to discuss and debate it. The other thread has already sunk into a bevy of name-calling and infantile insults, so let's hope this one remains the nicer alternative (or I'll be forced to post that baby picture again).

[DEAD BEAT]

It's way overrated. If any other dead film had the lead character making as many stupid mistakes as TWD's Rick Grimes, the fans would be screaming for their pound of flesh. The pilot was okay, and of course, there's no good reason not to see how it all plays out, but does anyone seriously care if any of these characters survive?

wow, dude people on here will corn hole you for that one! lol

[ProfessorChaos]

well, i'd have to say that TWD is brilliant when compared to 95% of the garbage shows that are on television these days.

i see your point about rick approaching the house, but he was calling out and asking if anyone was around, so he was being slightly cautious about it. the rest stop is a good point as well i'll concede...with that many cars around, surely there was a possibility of a walker somewhere.

as for him leaving morgan and duane jones behind, he knew his wife and son were out there somewhere and with death around every corner and limitless dangers abounding, decided not to waste any time trying to find them to ensure their safety the best he could.

as for the bicycle girl, he was just paying her back for her letting him take the bike....:p really, the way i looked at this was she was the first real zombie he'd seen and assuming he had to go that way on the way out of town, he probably decided to stop and put her out of her pathetic existence. perhaps he was trying to come to terms with what he was about to be facing and had the desire to remind himself just how horrendous and disgusting of creatures he was about to encounter.

[DubiousComforts]

wow, dude people on here will corn hole you for that one! lol
Did I mention that I can't wait? :p

---------- Post added at 01:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 AM ----------


well, i'd have to say that TWD is brilliant when compared to 95% of the garbage shows that are on television these days.
I'll be the first to admit that there's nothing wrong with looking forward to a dramatic zombie series on television each week, even a less-than-brilliant one.



i see your point about rick approaching the house, but he was calling out and asking if anyone was around, so he was being slightly cautious about it. the rest stop is a good point as well i'll concede...with that many cars around, surely there was a possibility of a walker somewhere.
Thanks for being open-minded enough to entertain and understand my points. I think the house scene in particular should have been used to demonstrate that he didn't only need to be cautious of walkers.



as for the bicycle girl, he was just paying her back for her letting him take the bike....:p really, the way i looked at this was she was the first real zombie he'd seen and assuming he had to go that way on the way out of town, he probably decided to stop and put her out of her pathetic existence. perhaps he was trying to come to terms with what he was about to be facing and had the desire to face just how horrendous and disgusting of creatures he was about to encounter.
I understood why, I just don't agree with how they portrayed it. Why did some of the walkers look really decomposed anyhow? How long was this guy in a coma?


as for him leaving morgan and duane jones behind, he knew his wife and son were out there somewhere and with death around every corner and limitless dangers abounding, decided not to waste any time trying to find them.
Again, I understand why he chose to leave, but wouldn't he have a better chance to stay alive and reach his family if he and Morgan had stuck together? Okay, someone needs a smack upside the head for naming a character Duane Jones. :p Did you notice that Morgan came running out of the house holding a tire iron?

[MoonSylver]

I agree about the song at the end, that was one issue I had. It was jarring the first time I watched it.

Yeah, I'll 2nd (3rd?) that one. That kind of thing works better in a promo, IMO. Kinda spoiled the gravitas of the moment for me. But it's a minor complaint, for me anyway.

As far as overrated? Meh. Depends on who you ask I suppose. It came in right about where I thought it would on my own personal scale. I do think it's a mistake to get into the whole "better than/worse than/as good as this-that-and-the-other" thing. I enjoyed it & think it was good on its own. I don't really need to comapre it to anything or anybody else. Not knocking anybody else that wants to. I suppose comparisons are inevitable. But I don't find any joy in such conversations. I'd rather just enjoy the thing in & of itself. :)

[JonOfTheShred]

I have to agree with the last few posts, the song at the end did NOT fit the mood of the rest of the episode. Felt very cliche, like something they'd put at the end of Rescue Me or Sons of Anarchy, or any other show like them. (Neither of which I have an opinion on, nor am I saying they're cliche.) Probably my biggest complaint about the episode was this poor music selection. To be honest, a lot of the music was kinda weak, at least compared to the visual aspect. It wasn't nearly as bad as the Danny Elfman-esque score Survival got, but it wasn't as awesome as, say, the score to Zombi 2 or Dawn or Day. Those cheesy 80's synths made for much creepier music than this BSG dude is offering. I feel like I could compose a far more effective score to this pilot, tbch.

Also wasn't too fond of the conversation Shane and Rick had at the start of the episode, seemed forced. Not to mention a very lame thing to bitch about. The light switches being left on is that much of a hassle? Well just you wait a week, you're gonna wish you still had electricity to bitch about.

And while I'm on this rant, I must say that I didn't feel like Rick was inquisitive enough about what the fuck was going on when he woke up. Didn't seemed all that shocked about the dead walking, didn't seem to care about how long he was out for, didn't even ask when exactly everything went to shit.

Other than those quips though, I definitely enjoyed the fuck outta the Walking Dead. Best thing to happen to zombies since Shaun of the Dead. (Which was an honer I previously bestowed on Zombieland, but TWD is definitely better.)

[ProfessorChaos]

@ DC:

when they are testing to see if there's hot water at the police station, morgan says that the power had been out for a month, so who knows how long rick was out for...i'd guess about 5 weeks. so maybe bicycle girl was one of the first to go.

and kirkman naming morgan jones' son duane was his way of nodding to mr. romero for getting the genre going and inspiring him to write his story.

[kidgloves]

I think I sense ulterior motives here hmmmmm.

[Neil]

DC, i gotta disagree with you on this; with all due respect, i think you've got your fanboy hat on a little too tight and it's affecting your thinking....romero's earlier works are good, but he's a terrible director compared to darabont. there's more emotion in those 2 scenes with morgan trying to put down his wife and rick putting bicycle girl out of her misery than any single romero film in its entirety.
*minor spoilers*

Have to disagree there!

I find Darabont's emotional filming a little ham-fisted these days... The scenes come across as a little too contrived and unatural. As for comparing it to emotional scenes in Romero's films, I'd say Bub finding Frankenstein dead had more emotion in :)

I was a little annoyed as how dim Grimes seemed. He's seen the world in tatters? Dead hands coming through a door. The corpse of bike girl crawling along, but seemed unwilling to accept in the walking dead?

I enjoyed the first episode. Found some parts great, but alot of it a little average. As a pilot it did its job, and I'm hoping the rest of series can pick up a bit...

ps1: Why did they go back to the house given the police station was available?
ps2: How did the people talking to Grimes at the end know the radio in the tank was even working, yet alone on?



@ DC:

when they are testing to see if there's hot water at the police station, morgan says that the power had been out for a month, so who knows how long rick was out for...i'd guess about 5 weeks. so maybe bicycle girl was one of the first to go.
How could Grimes live for that long without attention?

[Zombie Snack]

How could Grimes live for that long without attention?

How do the Dead Walk?

[Neil]

How could Grimes live for that long without attention?

How do the Dead Walk?
*sigh*

Unfortunately we need believable rules/behaviour/events don't we. We take a leap of faith with the dead rising due to a virus or something... But unfortunately the leap of faith falls apart if unbelievable things are balanced on top of it...

It needs to be as believable as possible, else it all just falls down...

[shootemindehead]

How could Grimes live for that long without attention?

How do the Dead Walk?

Oh come on!

If you can't buy the basic premise of the show, you might as well not watch the thing.

---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------


*minor spoilers*How could Grimes live for that long without attention?

This IS one of the major problems I had/have with 'The Walking Dead' in general, comic and film. But, I can accept that Grimes was receiving attention up until very shortly after he awoke. Perhaps a tiny skeleton crew were in operation at the hospital and evacuated in a hurry a few days before he opened his eyes and they got out and forgot him in the rush?

I could find that possible.

It's a minor issue as far as I am concerned.

[Neil]

Just speaking to a friend of mine. His 90yr old grandmother was taken off 'support' for her to die naturally. Took her 2 weeks to pass away...

So I guess Grimes, on a drip maybe etc, could survive 3-4 weeks?

[shootemindehead]

I liked the father and son characters, and Morgan clearly had the strongest scene in the pilot. Their story is interesting and you want to see them survive, but lo and behold, the "hero" has already left them behind. The bicycle girl corpse, on the other hand, was just silly and Grimes' dialog made putting her down even sillier. What was his attachment to this particular dead thing? Grimes gave less of a crap about one of his own deputies. He didn't even show one-tenth of concern before blowing the little girl away. Did he become numb to it all? There was also nothing about the bicycle girl that elicited sympathy; she just looked like an effect in which they were trying really hard to hide the fact that there was a human being under the make-up. Being reminded that dead are/were human beings is important.

Ha ha!

And some people call me hard to please!

Anyway, while there are flaws in 'The Walking Dead', no doubt, it's still one of the better efforts I've seen in a LONG time at the "living dead". I think the guy playing Rick did a credible job and yes he does act like a bit of a dolt at times, but don't we all? He's supposed to just an ordinary bloke, not the standard TV guy with all the right moves and answers.

The father and son characters is probably one of the better attempts to show how some people would try and hold up after the "apocalypse". I thought it was spot on and his resolve to knock off the wife was handled quite well too.

And the bicycle girl zombie was excellent IMHO. I felt she was one of the most sympathetic/pitiful zombies I've ever seen. Even I felt a bit of an attachment to her! I imagined myself in the characters situation and viewing such a person in such a ruined state. How would I feel If my wife and son were not around, possibly dead after suffering such an agonizing death, then reviving and crawling aimlessly and pathetically across the ground like her? I can believe that that is what Grimes is thinking here.

He probably gave "less of a crap" about his deputy, because he was a wanker. Besides, humans often transpose feelings onto blank canvases and to Grimes, the Bike girl zombie is a blank canvas.

In addition, the "little girl" was coming for him, so he had to react relatively quickly, not much time for sympathy there, although he clearly is not relishing the prospect. The bike girl zombie is impotent and can warrant more study...thus more feeling.

[Danny]

my only gripe was there was not much of that actually from the comic, it was like taking the first issue and thinking "hurm, this is only 15 to 20 minutes of tv, need to flesh it out" and thats what they did. There was more original story than actual comic adaptation. What news stuff that was there wasn't bad at all, but the fact that there was more new story than source material might be a sign that we are going to get a different story as it goes on, because like i said before, when it goes on, particularly the tedious prison arc i could see it losing a lot of viewers unless they change some stuff. Which now seems entirely possible.

[kidgloves]

Just speaking to a friend of mine. His 90yr old grandmother was taken off 'support' for her to die naturally. Took her 2 weeks to pass away...

So I guess Grimes, on a drip maybe etc, could survive 3-4 weeks?

Did you not see the carnage outside the hospital? It's very possible that Rick was only left for a couple of days before he woke up. The hospital was being protected by the military and would have been one of the last places to be abandoned.

---------- Post added at 11:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------


Did you not see the carnage outside the hospital? It's very possible that Rick was only left for a couple of days before he woke up. The hospital was being protected by the military and would have been one of the last places to be abandoned.

Edit

Rick shooting the police officer was a VERY important moment for his characters arc.

[bassman]

eh, well....Dawn and Night are completely overrated around here too, so this seems par for the course. Under par in most cases...

TWD is the best zombie outting since Day.

[deadkrank]

It's way overrated. If any other dead film had the lead character making as many stupid mistakes as TWD's Rick Grimes, the fans would be screaming for their pound of flesh. The pilot was okay, and of course, there's no good reason not to see how it all plays out, but does anyone seriously care if any of these characters survive?

Speaking of fans screaming. A few years ago I brought my DVD copy of Dawn of The Dead over to a friends house. Thinking it was just going to be the 2 of us watching the movie.But how wrong I was as he invited his whole family over to watch the movie with us. Yeah anyways we was watching the movie and my friend and his family started making fun of Flyboy Steven.They all thought Steve was a dumbbell. Yeah they all had a feld day on poor Steve at the end of the movie when Steve got attacked by the zombies in the elavator. Yeah anyways I had a blast watching Dawn of The Dead with my friends family. Its so fun to watch horror movies with a group of people.
Yeah anyways agree with you about Rick in The Walking Dead.

[DubiousComforts]

we was watching the movie and my friend and his family started making fun of Flyboy Steven.They all thought Steve was a dumbbell. Yeah they all had a feld day on poor Steve at the end of the movie when Steve got attacked by the zombies in the elavator.

Yeah anyways agree with you about Rick in The Walking Dead.
Stephen in DAWN was intended to be a dumbbell; even Romero comments that Stephen is "a mess" in one of the dvd commentaries. The difference is that Stephen is a well-conceived, well-acted, believable character. His missteps make sense and his ineptness serves a purpose: to create tension within the group. I'm not sure what was intended with Rick Grimes' character in TWD. I'd assume more of an everyman which the audience will identify with, but I don't believe that he was intended to be a dummy based on the comic. He doesn't ask Morgan what's happening, for example, but Morgan offers an explanation anyhow. I believe these leaps in logic are the result of the screenwriting.


TWD is the best zombie outting since Day.
Which is important for those that worry about such things. So it's kosher to overrate the TWD's attributes simply because everyone else is doing/has done it with Romero's works?


He probably gave "less of a crap" about his deputy, because he was a wanker. Besides, humans often transpose feelings onto blank canvases and to Grimes, the Bike girl zombie is a blank canvas.
The "blank canvas" is an excellent insight. Along those lines, my wife also pointed out the irony of Morgan joking about his wife packing photo albums while he packed survival supplies, yet those photo albums were clearly helping him to "survive."

But in regards to the deputy, nobody was painted a bigger wanker than Grimes' own partner. Isn't that guy pretty much responsible for him getting shot?

[bassman]

Which is important for those that worry about such things. So it's kosher to overrate the TWD's attributes simply because everyone else is doing/has done it with Romero's works?


Umm...no. I'm not overrating anything. I understand that you think it's overrated, however, I feel that it's great and the best zombie "film" since 1985.

[AcesandEights]

It's way overrated. If any other dead film had the lead character making as many stupid mistakes as TWD's Rick Grimes, the fans would be screaming for their pound of flesh. The pilot was okay, and of course, there's no good reason not to see how it all plays out, but does anyone seriously care if any of these characters survive?

I mentioned some really good rationales behind one of Rick's choices in the pilot in another thread. I think normal people in abnormal, over the top circumstances would make some questionable choices, especially ones that have in-character considerations.

Additionally, I certainly think this is the best zombie fare on screen in the last few years and--for me--if you discount 28DL/28WL, it is the best zombie fare on film (big or small screen) in what? The last decade, maybe. I'd have to think about it. I must be forgetting some films, right? Anyway, I don't want to get into the personal taste comparison game, but I do think the series has started strong.

Now, I do have some concerns with how the story and mood of the series will be maintained, as the comic hinges on audience patience. I also feel there are a few minor things that could have been done differently with the pilot, but I think it was rock solid, especially considering the table had to be set for so many upcoming components of the series.

[DubiousComforts]

I understand that you think it's overrated, however, I feel that it's great and the best zombie "film" since 1985.
"Great" sounds reasonable, but perhaps you missed some of the way-over-the-top accolades being tossed its way. I don't really understand how TWD can be compared to any standalone film when it's a serial and all of two days old.


I mentioned some really good rationales behind one of Rick's choices in the pilot in another thread. I think normal people in abnormal, over the top circumstances would make some questionable choices, especially ones that have in-character considerations.
The character attributes that I find issue with have more to do with what was glossed over or simply done for the sake of contrivance. It's understandable, for example, why Rick would leave relative safety and head for the city. It makes little sense why he would ride a horse into an uncertain and potentially dangerous situation. Why didn't he simply take the horse to the city limits, and then further travel on foot to investigate the downtown area?

[bassman]

"Great" sounds reasonable, but perhaps you missed some of the way-over-the-top accolades being tossed its way. I don't really understand how TWD can be compared to any standalone film when it's a serial and all of two days old.

I'm only speaking for the pilot episode, which is almost long enough to be considered a feature film. Can't comment on the rest. And it's about two weeks old to me. Seen it multiple times, so my opinion is pretty solid on it at this point.

[DubiousComforts]

I'm only speaking for the pilot episode, which is almost long enough to be considered a feature film.
That's the point: if you consider the pilot as a standalone work simply due to length, it really falls flat. It's akin to comparing the first episode of The Sopranos to Goodfellas.

[bassman]

What's wrong with considering it similar to a zombie feature film? It just about fits all the criteria one would assume goes along with being a zombie film. With the exception of the open ending, it feels like a real movie. Even with the open ending it can feel like a movie. Not all movies have a definite conclusion....

[AcesandEights]

That's the point: if you consider the pilot as a standalone work simply due to length, it really falls flat. It's akin to comparing the first episode of The Sopranos to Goodfellas.

Very valid point and I do agree. Maybe comparison is the hobgoblin of the fanboy mind and we should avoid it.

[DubiousComforts]

What's wrong with considering it similar to a zombie feature film?
Because it's jumping the gun which I realize a lot of people are eager to do. There is a difference between an open-ended film and a continuing serial. The pilot is an introduction and not a single aspect of the story has been wrapped up. Would you be satisfied with TWD as a film if no other epsiodes were to follow?


Maybe comparison is the hobgoblin of the fanboy mind and we should avoid it.
You are wise beyond your years, Aces. I wrote in your name on the ballot today. :D

[AcesandEights]

You are wise beyond your years, Aces. I wrote in your name on the ballot today. :D

I'll count on your endorsement next time I go out stumping! :skull:

[bassman]

Because it's jumping the gun which I realize a lot of people are eager to do. There is a difference between an open-ended film and a continuing serial. The pilot is an introduction and not a single aspect of the story has been wrapped up. Would you be satisfied with TWD as a film if no other epsiodes were to follow?

Once again....i'm speaking for only the pilot episode. And I do know there are more episodes to follow. Does that mean I can't form an opinion of this particular entry? Were people not allowed to form an opinion of The Empire Strikes Back because it was open ended and gave a good indication that a third installment was to follow? Did you leave the theater after Empire and say "I won't form an opinion on this second film until I see the third?"

[shootemindehead]

The "blank canvas" is an excellent insight. Along those lines, my wife also pointed out the irony of Morgan joking about his wife packing photo albums while he packed survival supplies, yet those photo albums were clearly helping him to "survive."

But in regards to the deputy, nobody was painted a bigger wanker than Grimes' own partner. Isn't that guy pretty much responsible for him getting shot?

Yep. Your wife's point is a good one and it was one of the nice little asides in the episode I thought.

As for Rick's partner, if you've read the comic...

Then you'll know that that's not the only misfortune he causes him

[kidgloves]

Its funny reading people complaining about Ricks choices when that's the core of his character and subsequent plotlines throughout the comic book.

[tkane18]

And we all know that in real life, everyone makes the right choice 100% of the time.
What a perfect world we live in. ;)

[DubiousComforts]

Does that mean I can't form an opinion of this particular entry? Were people not allowed to form an opinion of The Empire Strikes Back because it was open ended and gave a good indication that a third installment was to follow?
You're smart enough to know that ESB is nothing like the pilot episode of TWD. Had ESB ended abruptly during Luke & Vader's duel leaving the fate of Leia and the droids on Cloud City in uncertainty, you would have an valid argument.

I had previously written here (http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?16787-First-Look-at-AMC-s-The-Walking-Dead-Zombies-as-Production-Begins&p=245333&viewfull=1#post245333) that TWD simply has to be "epic" with some fans given their agenda to dethrone Romero as the reigning king of zombiedom. You blew that off and yet it's exactly what has happened. How does anyone misconstrue that with "not being allowed to form an opinion"? Of course people may form opinions, which is exactly what we've been discussing here. Perhaps you're only interested in threads where everyone agrees with you?


Its funny reading people complaining about Ricks choices when that's the core of his character and subsequent plotlines throughout the comic book.

I've read a good portion of the comic series; are you saying that Kirkman wrote the character to be stupid?

Tom Weaver, a noted author and film historian, best summed this up on another message board: "...when you're trying to get an audience to buy into a plot about a zombie apocalypse, it helps NOT to also have a lot of unnecessary hard-to-believe stuff in your story (guy wakes up after an operation and leaps out of bed, cops have a shootout and then turn their backs on the crime scene and start yukking it up and socializing like they're at the Policemen's Ball, a dozen other WTF? things that happened in the 'normal' scenes). At that point, it's not normal-people-coping-with-zombies, it becomes BizarroLand on both sides of the human/zombie equation, more bizarre than I personally am willing to focus my attention on."

[bassman]

Yeah, I really don't understand why you're bringing other threads or this "dethrone Romero" thing into our particular discussion. I was just pointing out that it's unfair to say one cannot enjoy a single entry in a series without having seen the others.

[kidgloves]

I've read a good portion of the comic series; are you saying that Kirkman wrote the character to be stupid?

No. He wrote him to be human and a recklessly impulsive one at that.

Tom Weaver, a noted author and film historian, best summed this up on another message board: "...when you're trying to get an audience to buy into a plot about a zombie apocalypse, it helps NOT to also have a lot of unnecessary hard-to-believe stuff in your story (guy wakes up after an operation and leaps out of bed,

Oh come on. He hardly leapt out of bed did he?

cops have a shootout and then turn their backs on the crime scene and start yukking it up and socializing like they're at the Policemen's Ball,

They said on the police radio that there were 2 people in the car not 3

a dozen other WTF? things that happened in the 'normal' scenes). At that point, it's not normal-people-coping-with-zombies, it becomes BizarroLand on both sides of the human/zombie equation, more bizarre than I personally am willing to focus my attention on."

I really don't understand your reaction to peoples love for this. Is it anything to do with the documentary link in your sig?

[JonOfTheShred]

I'm almost sure that dispatch only mentioned TWO armed individuals in the car. I don't think any of the policeman where aware of the third assailant in the vehicle, thus why they turned their backs.

Not that I'd defend the police in ANY other circumstance.

[DjfunkmasterG]

You're smart enough to know that ESB is nothing like the pilot episode of TWD. Had ESB ended abruptly during Luke & Vader's duel leaving the fate of Leia and the droids on Cloud City in uncertainty, you would have an valid argument.

I had previously written here (http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?16787-First-Look-at-AMC-s-The-Walking-Dead-Zombies-as-Production-Begins&p=245333&viewfull=1#post245333) that TWD simply has to be "epic" with some fans given their agenda to dethrone Romero as the reigning king of zombiedom. You blew that off and yet it's exactly what has happened. How does anyone misconstrue that with "not being allowed to form an opinion"? Of course people may form opinions, which is exactly what we've been discussing here. Perhaps you're only interested in threads where everyone agrees with you?



I've read a good portion of the comic series; are you saying that Kirkman wrote the character to be stupid?

Tom Weaver, a noted author and film historian, best summed this up on another message board: "...when you're trying to get an audience to buy into a plot about a zombie apocalypse, it helps NOT to also have a lot of unnecessary hard-to-believe stuff in your story (guy wakes up after an operation and leaps out of bed, cops have a shootout and then turn their backs on the crime scene and start yukking it up and socializing like they're at the Policemen's Ball, a dozen other WTF? things that happened in the 'normal' scenes). At that point, it's not normal-people-coping-with-zombies, it becomes BizarroLand on both sides of the human/zombie equation, more bizarre than I personally am willing to focus my attention on."

And clearly you WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION... ADHD is a bitch, but they have meds for it.

People need to get over the fact TWD has outshined Romero's recent stuff and it is a top notch show. once you accept that fact... your life will be so much better. :D

[MoonSylver]

Very valid point and I do agree. Maybe comparison is the hobgoblin of the fanboy mind and we should avoid it.

This cannot be overstated enough.:thumbsup:


I'll count on your endorsement next time I go out stumping! :skull:

The next time you go out whaaaa.....??? :stunned::confused::shifty::lol:

[AcesandEights]

This cannot be overstated enough.:thumbsup:



The next time you go out whaaaa.....??? :stunned::confused::shifty::lol:

Hit the campaign stump, deliver my best oratory and solicit votes as a candidate: stumping.

[MoonSylver]

Hit the campaign stump, deliver my best oratory and solicit votes as a candidate: stumping.

Oh, I know what it IS...I just like the way it SOUNDS...;) :lol:

(In before the Professor...)
"THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!!!" :lol:

[clanglee]

It makes little sense why he would ride a horse into an uncertain and potentially dangerous situation. Why didn't he simply take the horse to the city limits, and then further travel on foot to investigate the downtown area? What? Why would it make more sense to walk into a city rather than ride a much faster horse into the city? I dont get the issue some people seem to have with his decision to take the horse. . . . .he was out of gas. . . .he saw the horse. . . .realised that he had a speedy and manuverable form of transport that didn't require gas to run. . . .and couldn't pass it up.

As far as his "stupid" decisions go. . .I don't see many really. . and any that are there are understandable. The man was alseep through most of what had happened, he wakes up and finds that his world is fucked. . .his wife and kid are gone and he has little to live for. he finds that they may be in Atlanta and he sets off to go there as quickly as he can. He has no Idea how bad it will be out there, but he prepares himself the best he can (or the best he knows to)

I don't know. . .I guess I just went into the show with hopeful anticipation, and so didn't pick it apart when I saw it. I bought the story. . .it works for me so far, and I am ready for more.

[thxleo]

People need to get over the fact TWD has outshined Romero's recent stuff and it is a top notch show. once you accept that fact... your life will be so much better. :D

That's your opinion, Gary. It's not a fact. Now having said that, do I think what I've seen of The Walking Dead has been better than George Romero's most recent efforts? Yes I do.
I certainly can understand the criticisms that Jim cited though, he made many valid points. Hell, at the NYC Comic Con Robert Kirkman himself said he figured that perhaps there were a few hospital workers left who were watching over Rick Grimes, but he never gave it that much thought. There were several times that I wondered about things in the show, but I just went with it because I was enjoying it too much.

[MoonSylver]

I don't know. . .I guess I just went into the show with hopeful anticipation, and so didn't pick it apart when I saw it. I bought the story. . .it works for me so far, and I am ready for more.

That's because you're not picky enough & too easily satisfied. Go into EVERYTHING with the premise that it is flawed, & that YOU are the ONLY ONE who can spot said flaws, & that it's your holy mission in life to point those flaws out, because no one else "gets it", & because you are right, & everyone else is wrong. Then you'll be much happier. Or not. :p

(And before any one gets verklempt, I'm not talking about YOU, I'm talking about some other guy...I just like to pick on Clang. :D )

;)

[shootemindehead]

I'm not getting the "Rick is stupid" problem either. Most of his choices are perfectly valid as far as I'm concerned.

As far as being shot...He had just been clipped, was in a state of panic and was worried about how his wife was going to react about it. Losing control of himself momentarilly, he turns his back. That's absolutely plausable to me.

The "Stupid" things that stick out in my mind about the episode is the noise the characters make. Especially after recognising that noise attracts. They bang doors everywhere, beep car horns and sirens etc! But, this is more of a limitation of Darabont as a director rather then character writing. It's done for cheap "noise shock" in the case of the doors thing.

Even the wife picked up on it.

Besides, if we're comparing with Romero here, NOBODY in 'The Walking Dead' acts as stupid as some of the people in 'Dawn of the Dead'. Roger goes from pretty level headed to being a fool in a very short period and dies as a result and that guy that tets his blood ressure when there's a bunch of flesh eaters around? Seriously.... WHAT THE FUCK?

Rick's choices are perfectly acceptable as realistic.

[bassman]

The "Stupid" things that stick out in my mind about the episode is the noise the characters make. Especially after recognising that noise attracts. They bang doors everywhere, beep car horns and sirens etc! But, this is more of a limitation of Darabont as a director rather then character writing. It's done for cheap "noise shock" in the case of the doors thing.

Even the wife picked up on it.

Doors? I don't remember any doors slamming? And if they did....would that even be loud enough to attract them anyway?

As for the the car horn and siren as they're leaving the police department, it's the same thing that they say before he puts down his deputy. "They'll hear the shot" "Well, let's not be here when they do". So by honking the horn/siren as they were leaving was really no problem. They would have been miles down the road before the dead had surrounded the police station.

And good call on Dawn. The characters in Romero's films are just as "stupid" as Rick. If not worse.

[DjfunkmasterG]

When did any doors slam? Am I missing something? The siren and horn makes no difference because they were leaving as Bassman noted, plus it was a way to say thanks, goodbye and goodluck. To nitpick on that is kind of stupid... Those trying to pick apart the show really need to find more serious stuff because everything I have read has a logical explanation behind it when you think about it.

---------- Post added at 09:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 AM ----------


That's your opinion, Gary. It's not a fact. Now having said that, do I think what I've seen of The Walking Dead has been better than George Romero's most recent efforts? Yes I do.
I certainly can understand the criticisms that Jim cited though, he made many valid points. Hell, at the NYC Comic Con Robert Kirkman himself said he figured that perhaps there were a few hospital workers left who were watching over Rick Grimes, but he never gave it that much thought. There were several times that I wondered about things in the show, but I just went with it because I was enjoying it too much.


No Lee it is fact, you even agreed it is better than Romero's recent stuff, so my opinion just because FACT. Thank you for proving me right :D

[AcesandEights]

With regards to noise, car doors were slammed and I think the station door may have been slammed, as well. I certainly noticed they were cavalier when they walked out of the police station and Morgan let Duane go off to stow some of the gear in the car without nary a glance over his shoulder or a word of caution. I wrote some of that off to good intelligence by Morgan about how many active roamers were in the area, how quickly they may have been reacting to stimuli lately and the possibility that the little bit of fencing we saw present was indicative of a full fence that surrounded the motor pool portion of the car park (not unusual for some police stations).

I will assume the tension level will ramp up at times in this regard as things progress.

Anyway, a lot of the things people are picking apart are easily explained or looked past, especially with regards to characters choices, so far. The hospital and how Rick was able to be there is easy to fill in the blanks with different possibilities, most of them plausible and largely self-explanatory to my mind. It seems like a lot of argumentative roadblocks are being thrown up :shifty:, but they are easy to look past, as I haven't seen anything that was wholly implausible or silly yet ;)

[ProfessorChaos]

i saw nothing in the pilot for TWD that was any sillier or more questionable than any actions/behaviors by characters in any romero dead film.

[DjfunkmasterG]

At least there hasn't been a pie fight yet.

[bassman]

I haven't seen anything that was wholly implausible or silly yet ;)

Nothing implausible about the dead people walking around. :p

I keed, I keed.

[AcesandEights]

Nothing implausible about the dead people walking around. :p

I keed, I keed.

Shit, I don't even have the right smiley for a response...I'll find one...

http://www.realflowforum.com/img/smilies/smiley-dry.png

[shootemindehead]

Doors? I don't remember any doors slamming? And if they did....would that even be loud enough to attract them anyway?

As for the the car horn and siren as they're leaving the police department, it's the same thing that they say before he puts down his deputy. "They'll hear the shot" "Well, let's not be here when they do". So by honking the horn/siren as they were leaving was really no problem. They would have been miles down the road before the dead had surrounded the police station.

And good call on Dawn. The characters in Romero's films are just as "stupid" as Rick. If not worse.

I recall a couple of loud door openings and slammings in the copshop scene. The wife picked up on it and remarked about how loud and silly it was. Check out when Rick and the others leave the precinct. There's a jump cut and the door bangs open suddenly. It's a common directorial noise trick trick in movies. I agree it's not a biggie and the lets get out of here before they come addresses the point somewhat.

I'll have to look again and make sure, but we definitely picked up on the loudness.

-- -------- Post added at 02:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------


When did any doors slam? Am I missing something? The siren and horn makes no difference because they were leaving as Bassman noted, plus it was a way to say thanks, goodbye and goodluck. To nitpick on that is kind of stupid... Those trying to pick apart the show really need to find more serious stuff because everything I have read has a logical explanation behind it when you think about it.

I agree and I'm not really nit picking. Just saying that IF I absolutely HAD to pick something, it would be those type of things. Which, I spose is "nitpicking" ha ha.

As far as I'm concerned, the pilot was great and if the rest of the show is like that, then I'll be a happy bunny.

[Mike70]

At least there hasn't been a pie fight yet.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

the quote of the month.

the original dawn looks more and more like a creaking mass of ineptitude doesn't it?

actually most of romero's films fall into that category.

counting down until someone comes along to bash my opinion.

[AcesandEights]

counting down until someone comes along to bash my opinion.

http://api.ning.com/files/9Ow7wz5jK-8LBdI3-pEZFtH64iAMsw8zvI80S0hgZ3sSiN1nA6XCmTicxpl5RvDsMTi 3vl6Iy6J-MuI0J0e3y7jq5yEkF7WL/caveman_2.jpg

[Mike70]

http://api.ning.com/files/9Ow7wz5jK-8LBdI3-pEZFtH64iAMsw8zvI80S0hgZ3sSiN1nA6XCmTicxpl5RvDsMTi 3vl6Iy6J-MuI0J0e3y7jq5yEkF7WL/caveman_2.jpg

what no captain caveman?

i suggest that there are plenty of folks on here who feel that romero's films have not aged well.

[bassman]

i suggest that there are plenty of folks on here who feel that romero's films have not aged well.

:raises hand:

Especially Dawn. Parts of that film can make me cringe. That's not to say I don't love it, because I do. It's just not the holy grail that most people make it out to be.

If I had to choose one Romero film from the trilogy that still holds up, it's definitely Day. The only thing that really dates that film is the score. Day is always the first I show to friends.

[Mike70]

:raises hand:

Especially Dawn. Parts of that film can make me cringe. That's not to say I don't love it, because I do. It's just not the holy grail that most people make it out to be.

If I had to choose one Romero film from the trilogy that still holds up, it's definitely Day. The only thing that really dates that film is the score. Day is always the first I show to friends.

i like the story contained in dawn and the characters but as for the way it was made...less said the better.

i totally agree about day. it is the only film in that series that i will even consider watching. i also agree that the score for that film sucks bantha balls. it sounds like a 10 year old who has just gotten his first moog for christmas.

[BillyRay]

ii totally agree about day. it is the only film in that series that i will even consider watching. i also agree that the score for that film sucks bantha balls. it sounds like a 10 year old who has just gotten his first moog for christmas.

Sure it's dated, but I find the score to Day really works.

Maybe that's just me.

[DjfunkmasterG]

I dig the 80's synth driven scores. I think the score for day has some great moments, and some others are questionable, but I still think it is a very good score none the less.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, i like the score in day, and will agree that of the original three, day is the most accessible for non-zombie fans and has aged better than the other two.

and yeah, dawn is good, but a lot of times when showing it to those who are new to romero films, it gets a lot of chuckles at the wrong times.

seriously, if we were to pick romero's original trilogy apart to the same degree some are doing to TWD, i think there'd be just as much to bitch about.

[DjfunkmasterG]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

the quote of the month.

the original dawn looks more and more like a creaking mass of ineptitude doesn't it?

actually most of romero's films fall into that category.

counting down until someone comes along to bash my opinion.

I still like DAWN of the DEAD, while it hasn't aged well, the movie itself is effective. If you look beyond the acting and some cam work, the story and how epic the movie really is, is what keep people drawn to the flick. While we may be trapped inside a mall with 4 people, the news and radio reports continue to remiind everyone of how dire the consequences really are, and add to the fact as time passes on... no more TV no more radio you realize the world has totally collapse and the bikers/raiders show society for what it is set to become.

There is a really great story in DAWN of the DEAD and I would personally love to take that screenplay and remake it as is, while I dig Zack's version, it does lack a lot of the horror elements present in Romero's Dawn. I think if done with the right actors and some minor re-writes, remake that movie with the original Downtrodden ending and you would have another sure fire winner.

Night Dawn and Day are great films to me, Land Diary and Survival not so much... While people pick apart all Romero films, they pick at the surface mostly, if you go indepth to that movie then you realize the true horror Romero was trying to present to us, that is what drove me to want to become a filmmaker.

[bassman]

Definitely. The IDEA of Dawn is great. The execution.....not so much. I think that's what Mike was getting at.

[Trin]

Regarding noises... I was confused by the soundtrack adding creepy noises to build tension. In several scenes I thought Grimes was responding to something he was hearing only to discover that the noise was soundtrack. Very irritating.

I am a nitpicker. It's true. But why? Because I like to immerse myself in the experience. I like to be part of the story. When the characters do stupid things for stupid reasons I get pulled out of the story.

Take the horse as an example. When he runs out of gas my first thought is, seriously, he ran out of gas? When the scene pans across the truck then lands on the horse I thought, oh good, he found a truck. He can get gas, or maybe take the truck. Then he takes the horse and I'm thinking...ooookkaaaayyyy.... I'm not sure I'm down with this.

Then the horse is the reason he got surrounded and cornered, and I'm like, told ya so. Idiot.

I'm not quite with Dubious in that I didn't care at all about these characters. I liked Grimes a lot. I was okay with most of the decisions. But by the time he's facing a crowd of zombies on horseback I was no longer with him in spirit. I was still sitting in the police car thinking about how to get gas. That takes me out of the story and I enjoyed it less for the ride.

I think a motorcycle makes way more sense. It runs on small amounts of gas that you could find easily. It is maneuverable for getting past jams. And it makes noise.

Yes, that's right. Noise is an ADVANTAGE.

To my earlier statement, the horse was his undoing. It allowed him to silently sneak into an area where he knew (or should've known) that heavy concentrations of zombies would be present, probably hiding inside during the daylight, but a threat if they heard noise. The man was carrying a bag full of very noisy guns to protect himself. This is a recipe for disaster. And he had all the knowledge and experience to avoid it. Had he gone into town in the police cruiser with sirens blaring he would've recognized the threat right away.

As to Dawn having people doing stupid things... TWD isn't over yet. Neither Night, Dawn '78, Dawn '04, Day, Land, Diary, or Survival portrayed the protagonists doing stupid things in the opening scenes. I expect TWD will give us some idiotic episodes as it tries to explore human vs. human interaction in later episodes. That will put it on equal footing with the likes of Dawn and the others.

I still say TWD is a great fun ride, the good outweighs the bad, and I'm looking forward to a season of fun. And nitpicking. And gripes. And debates. And it has done nothing to dethrone GAR. :)

[ProfessorChaos]

well said, bassman.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Regarding noises... I was confused by the soundtrack adding creepy noises to build tension. In several scenes I thought Grimes was responding to something he was hearing only to discover that the noise was soundtrack. Very irritating.

I am a nitpicker. It's true. But why? Because I like to immerse myself in the experience. I like to be part of the story. When the characters do stupid things for stupid reasons I get pulled out of the story.

Take the horse as an example. When he runs out of gas my first thought is, seriously, he ran out of gas? When the scene pans across the truck then lands on the horse I thought, oh good, he found a truck. He can get gas, or maybe take the truck. Then he takes the horse and I'm thinking...ooookkaaaayyyy.... I'm not sure I'm down with this.

Then the horse is the reason he got surrounded and cornered, and I'm like, told ya so. Idiot.

I'm not quite with Dubious in that I didn't care at all about these characters. I liked Grimes a lot. I was okay with most of the decisions. But by the time he's facing a crowd of zombies on horseback I was no longer with him in spirit. I was still sitting in the police car thinking about how to get gas. That takes me out of the story and I enjoyed it less for the ride.

I think a motorcycle makes way more sense. It runs on small amounts of gas that you could find easily. It is maneuverable for getting past jams. And it makes noise.

Yes, that's right. Noise is an ADVANTAGE.

To my earlier statement, the horse was his undoing. It allowed him to silently sneak into an area where he knew (or should've known) that heavy concentrations of zombies would be present, probably hiding inside during the daylight, but a threat if they heard noise. The man was carrying a bag full of very noisy guns to protect himself. This is a recipe for disaster. And he had all the knowledge and experience to avoid it. Had he gone into town in the police cruiser with sirens blaring he would've recognized the threat right away.

As to Dawn having people doing stupid things... TWD isn't over yet. Neither Night, Dawn '78, Dawn '04, Day, Land, Diary, or Survival portrayed the protagonists doing stupid things in the opening scenes. I expect TWD will give us some idiotic episodes as it tries to explore human vs. human interaction in later episodes. That will put it on equal footing with the likes of Dawn and the others.

I still say TWD is a great fun ride, the good outweighs the bad, and I'm looking forward to a season of fun. And nitpicking. And gripes. And debates. And it has done nothing to dethrone GAR. :)

I disagree Trin... The truck, could have been out of gas, the horse makes a much better idea as the only fuel it needs is some grass and water. A motorcycle, attracts more attention and has zero protection from Zeds, as does the horse, but the horse seemed like a logical choice to me. I honestly think you're over thinking every bit of this and not putting yourself in the characters shoes.

[AcesandEights]

Sure it's dated, but I find the score to Day really works.

Maybe that's just me.

I love, love, love the Day score!

[Trin]

I disagree Trin... The truck, could have been out of gas, the horse makes a much better idea as the only fuel it needs is some grass and water. A motorcycle, attracts more attention and has zero protection from Zeds, as does the horse, but the horse seemed like a logical choice to me. I honestly think you're over thinking every bit of this and not putting yourself in the characters shoes.
There's nothing logical about a horse. It gets spooked. It needs rest. It is wholly unpredictable. Given its reaction to seeing one or two zeds I would've ridden it right back out of town.

A motorcycle doesn't throw you when it gets scared. It doesn't need sleep. And I maintain that you should never go into a situation where you make more noise defending yourself than you made getting there. Tallahasee got it right. "I miss my Escalade."

As I'm watching it, yes, I'm thinking about it. I don't turn my brain off during survival horror. That's the fun for me, and perhaps at times a frustration. And there were a ton of places where I wasn't really comfortable with his choices, but I stayed along for the ride. The show, for the most part, kept me along for the ride.

However, my gut told me the horse was a bad idea when he found it. I got more nervous when it got spooked at the first sign of zombies. And it turned out it was a bad idea when he got surrounded. How is that over-thinking? It's not like I actively took myself out of his shoes. I went kicking and screaming. I was really disappointed that it didn't work out better.

And come on, the man didn't realize how much gas he needed to drive to Atlanta? I'm not asking for rocket scientist here.

[DjfunkmasterG]

There's nothing logical about a horse. It gets spooked. It needs rest. It is wholly unpredictable. Given its reaction to seeing one or two zeds I would've ridden it right back out of town.

A motorcycle doesn't throw you when it gets scared. It doesn't need sleep. And I maintain that you should never go into a situation where you make more noise defending yourself than you made getting there. Tallahasee got it right. "I miss my Escalade."

As I'm watching it, yes, I'm thinking about it. I don't turn my brain off during survival horror. That's the fun for me, and perhaps at times a frustration. And there were a ton of places where I wasn't really comfortable with his choices, but I stayed along for the ride. The show, for the most part, kept me along for the ride.

However, my gut told me the horse was a bad idea when he found it. I got more nervous when it got spooked at the first sign of zombies. And it turned out it was a bad idea when he got surrounded. How is that over-thinking? It's not like I actively took myself out of his shoes. I went kicking and screaming. I was really disappointed that it didn't work out better.

And come on, the man didn't realize how much gas he needed to drive to Atlanta? I'm not asking for rocket scientist here.

We don't know where in Georgia he was in relation to Atlanta, plus we also don't know how many other places he stopped to get fuel and how much was int he cruiser... These are the questions you have to consider.

For all we know the cruiser only had a 1/4 tank and was probably one of the reasons it was left behind, like I said it is overthinking everything instead of just letting go and taking it for what it is... Was the horse a bad idea, maybe, but it was a form of transportation to keep from walking, maybe not the best choice but a horse is faster than your feet. A motorcycle would have created much more noise and if you're not an experienced Motorxyxle rider and you gun it too fast you can get thrown from a bike, I have seen it happen either way going into atlanta without a truck or car was probably a suicide mission.

[Mike70]

Definitely. The IDEA of Dawn is great. The execution.....not so much. I think that's what Mike was getting at.

indeed it is. great story, great characters that the viewer actually gives a shit about but poor from the technical side.

lack of money is no excuse. that card has been played way too often around here.

[AcesandEights]

There's nothing logical about a horse. It gets spooked. It needs rest. It is wholly unpredictable. Given its reaction to seeing one or two zeds I would've ridden it right back out of town.

A motorcycle doesn't throw you when it gets scared. It doesn't need sleep. And I maintain that you should never go into a situation where you make more noise defending yourself than you made getting there. Tallahasee got it right. "I miss my Escalade."

As I'm watching it, yes, I'm thinking about it. I don't turn my brain off during survival horror. That's the fun for me, and perhaps at times a frustration. And there were a ton of places where I wasn't really comfortable with his choices, but I stayed along for the ride. The show, for the most part, kept me along for the ride.

However, my gut told me the horse was a bad idea when he found it. I got more nervous when it got spooked at the first sign of zombies. And it turned out it was a bad idea when he got surrounded. How is that over-thinking? It's not like I actively took myself out of his shoes. I went kicking and screaming. I was really disappointed that it didn't work out better.

And come on, the man didn't realize how much gas he needed to drive to Atlanta? I'm not asking for rocket scientist here.

Trin, I find it helps to look outside of one's self when picking apart character's decisions and focus on not only their immediate circumstances, but the mindset & ultimate goal of the character in question, as well as the outside factors affecting them (and those that might be, that we are not privy to, especially if we're going to get picayune about minor choices they make in the flow of the narrative). Doing so without a god's view of the zombocalypse that we have as safe spectators is, I feel, pretty necessary for addressing why things are done by people in such circumstances. You're always going to see some occasional examples of less than stellar tactical decisions by people in such a world. Seriously.

[MoonSylver]

indeed it is. great story, great characters that the viewer actually gives a shit about but poor from the technical side.

lack of money is no excuse. that card has been played way too often around here.

Meh, respectfully disagree Mike. I've always been amazed at HOW MUCH GAR was able to accomplish in that movie for SO LITTLE. I've always thought that movie would/should have cost WAY more to make than what it did, & if made by a studio, with union & guild members & all that I'm sure it would have.

Now, having said that, I will also say that what I see in Dawn is "guerilla"/indie film making, the style of film making that produced NOTLD, where the kids said "let's put on a play!" and then DID IT, & also a director who is still learning, evolving, & growing & becoming more accomplished as he goes. Overall, I think the finished product is greater than the sum of its parts, & overcomes its technical flaws.

Beyond all that, I'm not seeing the usefulness of all of the comparisons I'm seeing from EITHER side in all of this. It's not even apples & oranges, it's apples and hamburgers. ;)

[Mike70]

Doing so without a god's view of the zombocalypse that we have as safe spectators is, I feel, pretty necessary for addressing why things are done by people in such circumstances. You're always going to see some occasional examples of less than stellar tactical decisions by people in such a world. Seriously.

give this man an award! as you have pointed out, we have the leisure to sit back and examine what these characters do. we are not placed in the situation or faced with the kinds of choices that they have to make and make immediately, without the time for thought or reflection. that is how the real world works. many, many times people find themselves in situations where they have to do something and that damn quick. there is simply no time for logic, reason or thought. you must act.

i have found myself in a couple of these situations (i know that the prof has too) where time for thought is a luxury that only the dead can afford.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------


Meh, respectfully disagree Mike. I've always been amazed at HOW MUCH GAR was able to accomplish in that movie for SO LITTLE. I've always thought that movie would/should have cost WAY more to make than what it did, & if made by a studio, with union & guild members & all that I'm sure it would have.

Now, having said that, I will also say that what I see in Dawn is "guerilla"/indie film making, the style of film making that produced NOTLD, where the kids said "let's put on a play!" and then DID IT, & also a director who is still learning, evolving, & growing & becoming more accomplished as he goes. Overall, I think the finished product is greater than the sum of its parts, & overcomes its technical flaws.

Beyond all that, I'm not seeing the usefulness of all of the comparisons I'm seeing from EITHER side in all of this. It's not even apples & oranges, it's apples and hamburgers. ;)

apologist! :p:D

seriously though, i know a lot of people love these films. i hope it is clear that i am criticizing the film and not the people who love it.

hades knows that i have a soft spot for some real cinematic turds.

[DubiousComforts]

What? Why would it make more sense to walk into a city rather than ride a much faster horse into the city?
You do understand what "city limits" means? Ride the horse to the city limits (i.e. the open highway as we were shown where any threat will be clearly visible) and then traverse the streets by foot so that you're able to move more sleathily and under cover, if necessary. What doesn't make sense? If you lived in a world where the dead were walking and coming after you, your instinct would be to be overly cautious.


I was just pointing out that it's unfair to say one cannot enjoy a single entry in a series without having seen the others.
Nowhere did I say that people couldn't enjoy the first installment (I did so myself), so I guess we are in complete agreement.

(and it only took several posts of completely skirting around the point to come to that conclusion, too)


I really don't understand your reaction to peoples love for this. Is it anything to do with the documentary link in your sig?
Dude, just get right to the point and say what you really mean. I guarantee it will be so much more interesting for everyone reading.


I certainly can understand the criticisms that Jim cited though, he made many valid points.
Don't bother to address the shortbus riders, Lee. They would be praising "Zombies For Dummies" as long as it didn't have Romero's name on it.

[mista_mo]

I sense some hostility here. Aces, you had better make anouther reasonable post, and try to mediate the conflict.

[bassman]

Nowhere did I say that people couldn't enjoy the first installment (I did so myself), so I guess we are in complete agreement.

You never said we shouldn't review or grade the first installment because it's a series? That forming an opinion of the first episode was invalid because it's part of a serial?


There is a difference between an open-ended film and a continuing serial. The pilot is an introduction and not a single aspect of the story has been wrapped up.


I don't really understand how TWD can be compared to any standalone film when it's a serial and all of two days old.



That's the point: if you consider the pilot as a standalone work simply due to length, it really falls flat. It's akin to comparing the first episode of The Sopranos to Goodfellas.


You're smart enough to know that ESB is nothing like the pilot episode of TWD. Had ESB ended abruptly during Luke & Vader's duel leaving the fate of Leia and the droids on Cloud City in uncertainty, you

[AcesandEights]

I sense some hostility here. Aces, you had better make anouther reasonable post, and try to mediate the conflict.

Okay...

Ease up, we're all just looking for a place to post.



How was that?

[Trin]

Trin, I find it helps to look outside of one's self when picking apart character's decisions and focus on not only their immediate circumstances, but the mindset & ultimate goal of the character in question, as well as the outside factors affecting them (and those that might be, that we are not privy to, especially if we're going to get picayune about minor choices they make in the flow of the narrative). Doing so without a god's view of the zombocalypse that we have as safe spectators is, I feel, pretty necessary for addressing why things are done by people in such circumstances. You're always going to see some occasional examples of less than stellar tactical decisions by people in such a world. Seriously.
I totally agree. And that analysis works great when you're talking about him wandering the streets after leaving the hospital. Or approaching the guy on the sidewalk. Or any of a dozen other scenes where he's just beginning to understand the zombie world. Part of the suspense/horror was us as viewers knowing the world and cringing because he's exploring it not knowing. There was some serious nail biting in the first half hour. Good stuff.

But by the time he's entering Atlanta he knows the score. Morgan has briefed him and he's seen enough of it himself. He knows what happens if he fires a gun. He knows there are way more of them around then it appears. He knew the horse is spooked by zombies. By that point he needs to act like he's got some sense if he wants to keep me along for the ride.

I'm willing to believe that he had reasons for choosing the horse. Maybe he was looking long term at sustainable transportation? Or maybe he felt more comfortable on a horse (though he stated he was rusty)? Or maybe he felt that being silent was advantageous and just never considered that big bag of guns he was carrying as a liability? I was really not *that* checked out on the horse. I thought it was stupid, but you know, whatever. It wasn't until he got *suddenly* surrounded with no explanation that it irked me.

At that point the whole thing struck me as plot contrivance, pure and simple. Like the writers patted themselves on the back for being so inventive as to use a horse cause no one has done that before. It's probably noteworthy that a comic adapted to a series doesn't have more nonsense like that, and far worse.

The gas thing. Concoct all the scenarios you want, I just don't buy that he was out of options. He literally had a truck in his sight when he abandoned the police cruiser and he never considered checking to see if it had gas or not. Whether we knew how far Atlanta was or not, he knew. He could've found gas.

Again, it's really a minor niggle in my mind. Just an annoying one. And as Dubious pointed out early on in this thread, it's not alone. Most are forgivable. Some just irk me. None of them will keep me from making Sunday nights into a TV viewing event!!

[DubiousComforts]

You never said we shouldn't review or grade the first installment because it's a series? That forming an opinion of the first episode was invalid because it's part of a serial?

So you're going to continue to argue the point even though we are in complete agreement. Jeez, talk about :whatever:

If you are unable to comprehend the simple point being made in the comment that you've quote... "if you consider the pilot as a standalone work simply due to length, it really falls flat. It's akin to comparing the first episode of The Sopranos to Goodfellas"

...then I am unable to help you.


Okay...

Ease up, we're all just looking for a place to post.

How was that?
Not really, Aces. We were having a great discussion in this thread until the usual suspects showed up to ruin it.

But because you asked nicely, I'll ease up.

Aces for moderator! :D

[bassman]

We may be in agreement that the first episode is good, but the quotes speak for themselves.

And good idea....we're unable to help each other. Moving on.

[mista_mo]

Conflict resolved, great job Aces! New topic for discussion is as follows.

Sometimes I have noticed that Rick has a hat on (some form of cop/cowboy hat amalgamation) but sometimes HE DON'T! Talk about continuity errors.

[DubiousComforts]

Sometimes I have noticed that Rick has a hat on (some form of cop/cowboy hat amalgamation) but sometimes HE DON'T! Talk about continuity errors.
Pretty sharp eyesight on display here.

[AcesandEights]

Again, it's really a minor niggle in my mind. Just an annoying one. And as Dubious pointed out early on in this thread, it's not alone. Most are forgivable. Some just irk me. None of them will keep me from making Sunday nights into a TV viewing event!!

Cool in my book. I'm just glad we have more zombie material to talk about and debate, in general! It's just, for me, I haven't seen much that has detracted from the show, it's just more along the lines of: "what would I do if..." sort of scenarios. I guess when the conversation starts to change from that to character X did verb A when he should have done verb B, that's where where I start to question things.

[BillyRay]

And remember kids;

Pointing out continuity errors and nitpicking is all well and good online,

But for the Love of George - SHUT UP DURING THE FUGGING SHOW!!!

(That wasn't meant for any of you guys, just for a couple of the people who came 'round to watch and apparently knew everything about hospital power supplies, tanks, and whatever else they couldn't wait for the commercial to point out.)

:annoyed:

[DubiousComforts]

But for the Love of George - SHUT UP DURING THE FUGGING SHOW!!!

I feel your pain. I had the same problem with a friend at the premiere of DIARY.

So I watched SURVIVAL on blu-ray by myself and it was a much more enjoyable viewing experience.

[darth los]

And remember kids;

Pointing out continuity errors and nitpicking is all well and good online,

But for the Love of George - SHUT UP DURING THE FUGGING SHOW!!!

(That wasn't meant for any of you guys, just for a couple of the people who came 'round to watch and apparently knew everything about hospital power supplies, tanks, and whatever else they couldn't wait for the commercial to point out.)

:annoyed:

That is beyond annoying. For some reason people who have already seen something need to prove that they saw it with, "watch what's going to happen next syndrome". Thereby spoiling everything the trailer did not already show you.

Fucking idiots.

:cool:

[Trin]

You guys are making me happy that my world is already a zombie apocalypse (translation - I have no one in my world who enjoys zombies). So I watch the show alone. Which somehow feels right for this kind of thing. :)

[darth los]

It's better to watch it alone than with people who are not into it throwing cold water on your party saying how dumb or cheesy it is.

:cool:

[Thorn]

While I have to disagree with the initial thought that the premier was not amazing, I found it to be quite more than expected and I enjoyed the acting a good deal (except the children who were terrible in my opinion but this is often the case very few child actors “get it”)

I can say I certainly do care who lives and dies, maybe that is more tied to the fact I know them and am “close” to them from the source material. All that aside I like that Rick is not perfect. He is not the perfect cop, he is not a perfect husband, he makes mistakes, he makes sentimental decisions. Things that would happen to the average guy in the zombie apocalypse. He is not the “perfect symbol of zombie fighting badassery”. He is not an over the top super hero-esque character who does no wrong.

He is a man, he is confused. He is lost.

He continues to be human throughout the comic and at times doubts himself as do others for his mistakes. That is what makes it very real and engaging to me.

The bike zombie. Yes well I doubt I would go back and put her down myself, but this is a TV show. It was done for a reason, and not a “I have lived zombie material for a lifetime and that’s just dumb” reason. It was a man who was lost, who was alone trying to find his wife showing compassion to another soul whom he has not come to view as “the enemy” yet. He sees her as a person, not a walker. He sees a woman, who is a victim and in her perhaps some of his wife, or himself. He puts her down as an act of compassion. Not because he is a tough guy clearing the town.

We all make sentimental decisions, and it was funny how the “men” in the pilot talk about the women folk making decisions based on emotion and not logic. Then we see the same thing out of Rick. It was purposeful story telling.

I loved the show, it was a great watch.

As to Romero films not standing up to the test of time, let’s face it NOTHING does generally. My cousin has a romantic notion about the original star wars trilogy. He sings their praises while bashing other modern films like Avatar. I tell him to go back and watch those films without a child’s love, without the first time magic and a life time of admiration clouding your judgment and you see some really bad acting and a lot of crap. Crap we ignore because we grew up with them, embraced them, and made them part of us.

Dawn was way campy. Night was full of bad editing. Day was the best film from the series in my opinion. It however is not my FAVORITE. Dawn is. The camp, bad acting, and technical errors do not take away from my enjoyment because the film MEANS something to me.

Was Walking Dead the best TV show of all time? Was it the best zombie story ever? Was it better than Romero? Who cares? It was a great show that I enjoyed watching, and that to me is all that matters.

[Legion2213]

Thorn, regarding your Star Wars comment.

To be a Star Wars fan, one must possess the ability to see a million different failures and downfalls, and then somehow assemble them into a greater picture of perfection. Every true Star Wars fan is a Luke Skywalker, looking at his twisted, evil father, and somehow seeing good. - Andrey Summers

This of course could apply to anything with a really loyal following/dedicated fan base. :)

[thxleo]

Don't bother to address the shortbus riders, Lee. They would be praising "Zombies For Dummies" as long as it didn't have Romero's name on it.

I think you are right about that, Jim. The backlash against Romero on this site - a site which is dedicated to him and his films I might add - is really bizarre to me. It's one thing to have some issues with his work or not be thrilled at all with his later films, yet still be able to respectfully articulate those thoughts. It's entirely different to read some of the things that so called "fans" on this message board write. Oh wait, I'm sure they would consider themselves way too cool to be called fans. Perhaps casual observers would be more appropriate?
I hope Darabont doesn't slip up at any point and fall out of favor with the peanut gallery. They will want to disembowel him I'm sure.

[AcesandEights]

It's better to watch it alone than with people who are not into it throwing cold water on your party saying how dumb or cheesy it is.

Yeah, I watched it with my girlfriend sitting next to me playing one of her PC games, talking about our future wedding and occasionally looking up and going 'eww.'

I responded to this frequently with the Look™:

http://www.topnews.in/light/files/Bernie-Mac1.jpg

[Legion2213]

I think you are right about that, Jim. The backlash against Romero on this site - a site which is dedicated to him and his films I might add - is really bizarre to me. It's one thing to have some issues with his work or not be thrilled at all with his later films, yet still be able to respectfully articulate those thoughts. It's entirely different to read some of the things that so called "fans" on this message board write. Oh wait, I'm sure they would consider themselves way too cool to be called fans. Perhaps casual observers would be more appropriate?
I hope Darabont doesn't slip up at any point and fall out of favor with the peanut gallery. They will want to disembowel him I'm sure.

I've noticed that, I think it is more a case of bashing George for his last three efforts. I won't bash the first three films, they mean something to me, it's his later stuff that turned me off him as a story-teller/film maker.

I think the vast majority of those having a pop at George would absolutely love him to prove them wrong and give us another zombie movie that blew our minds...I know that I would.

[darth los]

That's why the internet is a blessing Aces. We can all come here and enjoy this stuff and not feel out of place.

Sorta like that Blind Melon video. :D

:cool:

[Thorn]

Thorn, regarding your Star Wars comment.

To be a Star Wars fan, one must possess the ability to see a million different failures and downfalls, and then somehow assemble them into a greater picture of perfection. Every true Star Wars fan is a Luke Skywalker, looking at his twisted, evil father, and somehow seeing good. - Andrey Summers

This of course could apply to anything with a really loyal following/dedicated fan base. :)

That is an amazing quote. Thanks I am going to be using that in the future.

As for Romero bashing I would never "bash" Romero, I love the guy. I love who he is, and what he has done for the genre he created. I do not even loathe all of his later offerings as some do.

You can look at a film, and detail the short comings of that film without bashing it. We can all look at things with an analytical eye and comment on what we see. It in no way changes my fanboy affection for GAR or his work.

[Wyldwraith]

Few thoughts on TWD,
Been kicking around my overall impression of TWD's potential as based on the limited amount of material (the pilot) to work with. Here's what I came up with. 1) It's true in most zombie movies, and it's true for TWD: If the characters did the smart/extremely cautious thing all the time, the scriptwriters would be severely curtailed in their options for adding to the storyline. Yes, I'm among those that had a "WTF Moment" when Rick trotted that horse nonchalantly into a major city that the visible-at-a-glance evidence indicated tons of people had been trying to leave, but NO CARS left stranded heading TOWARDS the city. My WTF-moment was further compounded when Rick halted the horse's galloping momentum while surrounded by zombies. It would've made more sense to plough through them before they packed the straight back the way he'd come from the way they had the street(s) deeper into the city.

All of that said, I was willing to shrug and go along, because they wanted a semi-viable reason to get him trapped in the tank, so what could happen from that point could transpire, which it couldn't have had he simply been allowed to escape back out the way he'd entered.

2nd/finally: When the pilot episode was over, it left me EAGER to see/know what happens next. That's the very ESSENCE of a cliffhanger done right. We're all far too familiar with bad cliffhangers. They just annoy you and feel so contrived you're not even sure you want to see what happens to resolve the bad cliffhanger.

That wasn't the case here.

Last thing I'll say: I REALLY adore the way that the three distinct behavioral "modes" of the Walkers have been consistently portrayed. You've got Motionless/Dormant/"Sleep" Mode, followed by aimless or slowly accelerating wandering for "Roaming Mode", and finally you've got riled-up, human-in-sight maximum speed Hunting Mode. So far, those portraying the zombies have been EXCELLENT *IMO* at portraying these distinct Walker behavior-types. It really gives the Walkers a far superior feel to the much more inconsistent Romero-esque Shamblers.

And BTW, Romero didn't need TWD to Dethrone him. He dethroned HIMSELF when he shit Diary into the World, and then Vomited Forth Survival of the Dead, and THEN in multiple recent interviews has revealed how completely unable he is to discern between a good and an awful zombie movie, as evidenced by his REPEATED statements that Diary and Survival are clearly his best Dead work. Sorry George, that's completely delusional.

Take TWD for what it is. A promising TV adaptation of a high-quality and very popular comic that features a Zombie Apocalypse as its major world-setting and dramatic set-pieces. Don't hype it into next year and don't hate on it before you've even seen enough of what the show has to offer to draw a worthwhile conclusion.

I'm looking forward to this Sunday and seeing how he gets out of the tank and to start seeing what the deal is with the Atlanta survivors. If you share those feelings isn't that enough of an endorsement of TWD? If you're completely disinterested in what happens next/what you've seen so far, isn't that all you need to know or say about not wanting to pursue viewing the show?

Besides, whatever camp you're in...new shows tend to improve in quality when the pilot succeeds

[Legion2213]

Point about the tank, I am looking forward to seeing how gets out of that myself.

I will be avoiding spoilers from now on...as others have said, the spoiler that had the "dormant zombie" reveal in the tank really hurt...would have loved to have seen that in the show proper without knowing about it (my own fault, I know). It was really well done...I think tank zombie could be one of my favorite zeds so far, the gasping noise he made as he "re-activated" was wonderful. I really like TWD zacks, they are scary fuckers IMO. :)

[bassman]

I won't bash the first three films, they mean something to me, it's his later stuff that turned me off him as a story-teller/film maker.

I think it's actually more often accepting that the first three films aren't without their flaws. Some fans tend to see the films with rose colored glasses and perceive them as absolutely flawless, while others can see that they're far from it. That doesn't mean we're bashing or hate these films, just that we see them for what they really are. And in most cases, we still love them regardless. I mean....if you can't find flaws in your favorite films, whatever they may be.....you're obviously lying to yourself.

I can't recal anyone ever really BASHING the original trilogy here at HPotD. Just discussing said flaws.

[Legion2213]

Yeah, as others have said, Dawn is camp city, some really silly stuff going on in there, but it just becomes greater than the sum of it's parts when I watch it. :cool:

Same for Day as well really. As for the original Night, that is a great movie IMO, it's biggest downfall is that I personally enjoy the remake more. Tonny Todd just chews up the scene whenever he is on camera. :)

[bassman]

Same for Day as well really. As for the original Night, that is a great movie IMO, it's biggest downfall is that I personally enjoy the remake more. Tonny Todd just chews up the scene whenever he is on camera. :)

Todd friggin rocks Night90. The remake has also become my favorite of the two in recent years. It's nothing against the original, it's just that its so prominent on TV, Radio, ETC. Especially during the Halloween seasons. I have VERY early memories of Night before I really even paid attention to movies. It was just somehow drilled into my head. Might have something to do with it being public domain so everyone and their brother plays it, but somehow it's just lost all of it's *pop* in recent years because i've seen it so much. Night90 feels more fresh.

Hopefully the same fate never happens to Dawn and Day. God knows I won't turn to their remakes. :lol:

[kidgloves]

I'm confused also by the bashing of uncle George as he comes across as a cool fella with very few hangups. I kinda liked Diary but thought Survival was total garbage. Dawn is my passion and TWD gives me that apocalyptic feeling and love that i have for Dawn. Its gonna be interesting to see where they take it.
Managed to get my hands on a 1080i version with 5.1 sound yesterday and watching it up on a 9ft screen in the home cinema just elevates the whole thing to another level. It's interesting to notice they use a lot of grain and the tone is very grey in areas. This is gonna be one of those presentations that won't look much better on blu-ray unfortunately. Audio was ace though.

[Mike70]

I'm confused also by the bashing of uncle George as he comes across as a cool fella with very few hangups.

and i'm confused by people who cannot tell the difference between criticism of an artistic work and bashing a person. that seems to be a basic failure of intellect. there is a difference, folks, a big, big difference.

no one has said anything personal about romero. all comments have revolved around the feeling that certain members have that some of romero's movies have not aged well. if you cannot understand that, then i don't know what else to write.

[kidgloves]

and i'm confused by people who cannot tell the difference between criticism of an artistic work and bashing a person. that seems to be a basic failure of intellect. there is a difference, folks, a big, big difference.

no one has said anything personal about romero. all comments have revolved around the feeling that certain members have that some of romero's movies have not aged well. if you cannot understand that, then i don't know what else to write.

Chill out dude.
I'm talking about the almost glee that certain members post with when uncle George missfires with a movie that doesn't live upto peoples expectations.

[DubiousComforts]

I'm talking about the almost glee that certain members post with when uncle George missfires with a movie that doesn't live upto peoples expectations.
Bingo. Comments like "hang it up," "retire now," "he's lost it" or worse have nothing to do with the films; it has been personal on many levels for at least several years now.

It's understandable if one's viewpoint is "The Walking Dead is the type of program that I'd prefer to see from this genre over any of Romero's recent work." It simply loses validity once it becomes a conniption to crown a reigning champ.

[Debbieangel]

I want to say..TWD ROCKS!!!
I have read through most of this thread and some were talking about how long Rick G was comatose, well, from what I could see.. beard growth,flowers wilting,IV empty and no power in that section of hospital. I agree it was over a month since he was shot.
Did you notice?
The gurney in front of his room, his door was closed like eventho people abandoned the hospital someone was kind enough to atleast do something to keep Rick safe. The gurney was heavy enough so if shamblers walked by they wouldn't push it away from door, they would just walk on by room. Oh yeah, another thing, Rick's wound...it couldn't have been too long since they abandoned the hospital because his wound didn't get gangerine in it or infection. If he had infection he wouldn't be getting up from that bed.
All in all TWD lived up and surpassed what I wanted it to be and then some!!! Way to go AMC and Darabont and company!!!!

[DjfunkmasterG]

I think those that think the show is overrated should give Ep#1 another watch.

I am with Debbie, TWD does rock and I have now watched the episode 11 times, and it just keeps entertaining me viewing after viewing.

[paranoid101]

Couldn't wait till Friday so downloaded the first one and I loved it.

[kidgloves]

I think those that think the show is overrated should give Ep#1 another watch.

I am with Debbie, TWD does rock and I have now watched the episode 11 times, and it just keeps entertaining me viewing after viewing.

Glad it's not just me doing that Gary though I do have an excuse. I had the low bitrate screener, then the 720p and now 1080i version. :)
BTW if anyone is still in doubt, hang on till the 3rd episode. If it hasn't rocked your socks by then you can move on quietly.;)

[DjfunkmasterG]

I think you are right about that, Jim. The backlash against Romero on this site - a site which is dedicated to him and his films I might add - is really bizarre to me. It's one thing to have some issues with his work or not be thrilled at all with his later films, yet still be able to respectfully articulate those thoughts. It's entirely different to read some of the things that so called "fans" on this message board write. Oh wait, I'm sure they would consider themselves way too cool to be called fans. Perhaps casual observers would be more appropriate?
I hope Darabont doesn't slip up at any point and fall out of favor with the peanut gallery. They will want to disembowel him I'm sure.


So are you suggesting we should praise George for his recent mediocre efforts? As a true fan I can not do that. I am not just a Romero fan, but a zombie film fan and when the man who started the flesh eating zombie genre can't slice the bread anymore I shouldn't be saying GREAT JOB... you tried and that is what counts.

So are you suggesting we start the "No Romero zombie film left behind act"? We all know how the no child left behind act worked for US education, now we have more dumbasses graduating high school then ever before.

While we differ quite a bit on opinions I will tell you like I told someone else we both know.... just because I am a fan doesn't mean he gets a free pass. If he produces a shit film I will call it a shit film because I feel it is a shit film. Romero as an adult I bet would respect that opinion, and I would hope he understands that as a fan I expect him to turn out great works like he did in the past, but if he can't then what is the point in continuing the work.

I recognize the man has made zombies mainstream, and fun. He created 3 zombie films I enjoy still to this very day, one of them being 42+ years old, and I hope he can make another great zombie film I will enjoy, but what he has offered up in LAND and SURVIVAL is not what I consider worthy entries... Diary I dig, Survival I thought would have been awesome if it just focused on the military guys getting out of dodge and not some stupid drunken irish feud that was his way of making a western.

Basically what i am saying is that IMHO as of right now based on his recent work and what Darabont has done with TWD... Darabont is the new king of zombies to me... if Romero makes another film in the genre and it knocks my socks off then I will change my tone, but with what is presented to me at the moment, this is the opinion I have come too and will continue to possess.

I don't care ho wmany here have worked with him, produced documentaries about his films etc etc... It is what it is and I am not the only one who shares this opinion.

Just a side note: Romero was the reason I got into filmmaking and so he gets my respect.

[MoonSylver]

As for Romero bashing I would never "bash" Romero, I love the guy. I love who he is, and what he has done for the genre he created. I do not even loathe all of his later offerings as some do.

You can look at a film, and detail the short comings of that film without bashing it. We can all look at things with an analytical eye and comment on what we see. It in no way changes my fanboy affection for GAR or his work.

This times Infinity (and beyond!)

http://www.talknerdytomelover.com/storage/GolfClap.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1279656462 897


and i'm confused by people who cannot tell the difference between criticism of an artistic work and bashing a person. that seems to be a basic failure of intellect. there is a difference, folks, a big, big difference.

no one has said anything personal about romero. all comments have revolved around the feeling that certain members have that some of romero's movies have not aged well. if you cannot understand that, then i don't know what else to write.

Eh...there are some folks who do blur the line mightily...the verbiage they employ, or the amount of hysteria, histrionics & hyperbole (say THAT five times fast! :D ) that they use in their posts I usually find pretty offensive to be honest, & if it were ME they were taking about I would damn sure take offense. It comes across as little more than a personal attack IMO, wrapped in a "review"...but hey, it's "da interwebz". What else should I expect? ;)


Chill out dude.
I'm talking about the almost glee that certain members post with when uncle George missfires with a movie that doesn't live upto peoples expectations.

Yeah. Glee would be a good way to characterize the types of posts I'm referencing above. Posting a reasonable, rational, well thought out critique of why some thing is good or bad is respectful, the types of posts I'm thinking of are just insulting. If one chooses to be insulting, that's their choice. I find it tasteless, but that's just me. Nobody's seeking my approval, & I'm not handing it out, as it should be. :) Besides, I save that type of posting for films like "Halloween:Resurrection" which REALLY deserves it! :lol:

[thxleo]

Just a side note: Romero was the reason I got into filmmaking and so he gets my respect.

That's what George Romero deserves from us...respect. I will always respect him as a filmmaker, even if I don't really enjoy some of his later efforts as much as I enjoy his older films. I'll always hold him in high regard and I'll never slight or disrespect him or his work simply because it didn't measure up to the original NOTLD or DOTD.
George Romero has become a little like the Coen brothers to me in his later years. I don't necessarily like all of his films, but I find all of his films interesting and I want to see anything he makes.

[Debbieangel]

That's what George Romero deserves from us...respect. I will always respect him as a filmmaker, even if I don't really enjoy some of his later efforts as much as I enjoy his older films. I'll always hold him in high regard and I'll never slight or disrespect him or his work simply because it didn't measure up to the original NOTLD or DOTD.
George Romero has become a little like the Coen brothers to me in his later years. I don't necessarily like all of his films, but I find all of his films interesting and I want to see anything he makes.

DITTO...GAR ALWAYS deserves respect!!
I mean really even his films after the triology should be respected. As he always says, he does his movies from his own aspect not ours. Like them ...don't like them...end of the day..he keeps the genre alive!!! He still is "THE MAN" to me!! I will always love his films!!!!!

[bassman]

I think a lot of people are confusing some things. There's respect and then there's brown nosing. I'll always respect Romero for what he's done in the past, but that's not to say I have to swallow my tongue when it comes to his new efforts.

It's like your favorite musician or band. If they've had three GREAT albums and three poor albums, are you going to lie to their face and say you loved the latest three? Or just keep your mouth shut about them? No artist should expect his/her fans to lie or keep their mouths shut.

That being said, I don't agree with the "throne" thing being thrown around. At the same time....Romero has failed to turn in anything good in recent years(imo). I would love nothing more than to see him make another great movie, but does that mean I should pretend to like his latest efforts in that hope? If he's an artist, he should be able to take the criticism into consideration. Or not, for that matter. But the point is that there is no reason we should lie and further fuel the fire of the mediocre albums.

In that sense, I see where DJ is coming from. He deserves our respect for the good films, but he does not however deserve respect for the weaker efforts. Of course that varies from person to person, but I think most can agree that the latest three in no way compare to the original three. Nor are they very good when not compared to any past efforts. And I enjoy Land...

[MoonSylver]

I think a lot of people are confusing some things. There's respect and then there's brown nosing. I'll always respect Romero for what he's done in the past, but that's not to say I have to swallow my tongue when it comes to his new efforts.

I'm not saying that. I HOPE no one else is either. Extremism is bad, to EITHER end of the spectrum.



It's like your favorite musician or band. If they've had three GREAT albums and three poor albums, are you going to lie to their face and say you loved the latest three? Or just keep your mouth shut about them? No artist should expect his/her fans to lie or keep their mouths shut.

No, but they should be able to critique the albums in an intelligent thoughtful manor, if they have any respect for the band themselves. Just making a so-called "review" that really just a bunch of ranty, spewing, bilious hate mail, like...

"(Insert bands name here) last three albums were so bad they raped my mom, killed by wife, maimed my children, kicked my dog, invaded Poland, blah, blah!!!!111one!one!"

...doesn't seem like something one would post about someone they respect or admire.

Now, if one wants to post like that, hey, it's a free country, knock yerself out. But I find it hard to take them seriously. And I'll hope they'll forgive me if I do take offense, because frankly, I find it offensive. :(

I'll respect anyones opinion more if they can articulate it in an intelligent manor than just spew bilge. :)


That being said, I don't agree with the "throne" thing being thrown around.

Same here. I've made my feelings known already about comparisons. I don't think they're helpful at all in this case & feel like really all they're causing is divisiveness where there should be none.


At the same time....Romero has failed to turn in anything good in recent years(imo). I would love nothing more than to see him make another great movie, but does that mean I should pretend to like his latest efforts in that hope? If he's an artist, he should be able to take the criticism into consideration. Or not, for that matter. But the point is that there is no reason we should lie and further fuel the fire of the mediocre albums.

See above.

Not singling you out presonally here Bass, not singling ANYONE out personally, just my genreal thoughts on a style of posting that I've seen on ocasions that I find distaseful.

Sometimes it's a fine line. I know I've been ranty in the past on certain things. Usually it's to elicit a humerous response. (Like above, that's not TOO far from the lengths I might go to try & get a laugh.)

But when the person is SERIOUS? That doesn't indicate respect of any kind to me. I know if & when I DO post in those kinds of terms it's generally for something I reserve a genuine hatred & have no respect for AT ALL. Now if that's what these folks are trying to express, hey that's your opinion too, but now we've genuinely come to a parting of ways. Because even though I may have been disapointed in "Survival", or found verying degrees of flaws in "Diary" or "Land", I've got nothing but respect for ol' George himself & his past accomplishments. & like Leo said, I'll be interested to see what he does next. If that makes me a brown noser, so be it &... :fin: ;)

Which actually brings me to another thing, maybe the issue is that folks that indulge in this kind of "hate mail" sometimes arn't the most articulate. Maybe they're having a hard time expressing their feelings for the FILMS vs their feelings for the FILMMAKER. Or maybe they can't tell the difference. Or maybe they're so overcome in their zeal to spread their ranty rant ranting goodness that they just can't pound out those colorful metaphors quick enough. I dunno. :)

Besides, I figure we can have reasonable discourse with each other, & at the end of the day agree to disagree, as long as we remain civil with each other.

http://www.i-mockery.com/halloween/greatest/pics/dayofthedead3.jpg


Civility must be rewarded.
What's that Doc?

http://www.i-mockery.com/halloween/greatest/pics/dayofthedead3.jpg



Reward is the key! They must be tricked into being 'good little girls and boys' the way WE were tricked into it, on promise of some reward...Well, yeah, it's true we don't really REWARD civility around here per se....

http://www.i-mockery.com/halloween/greatest/pics/dayofthedead3.jpg


If civility isn't rewarded then there's no use for it. There's...just no use for it at all!

I don't know that I agree...civility is its own reward IMO...

http://www.i-mockery.com/halloween/greatest/pics/dayofthedead3.jpg


Bastard! Be civilized! BE CIVIL-IIIIIZED!!!

Ah, see?!? Even Dr. logan feels the need to rant occasionally I guess. :lol:

[MikePizzoff]

Reading through all of these new threads...

Am I the only one getting ticked off by people speaking about TWD as if it's simply an original television show and not based off a running comic book?

[kidgloves]

Reading through all of these new threads...

Am I the only one getting ticked off by people speaking about TWD as if it's simply an original television show and not based off a running comic book?

Its a fine line though. The riding into Atlanta on a horse was a big image as part of the comic but if you cut that out and put him on a bike or in a truck it ceases to be the comic. There would be uproar so you have to let some things slide.

[bassman]

If that makes me a brown noser, so be it &... :fin: ;)

I wasn't calling you or anyone else here a brown noser. I just keep seeing the word "respect" thrown around as if people are straight hating on Romero and everything he's ever done. Nobody has gone to that extreme. It's not disrespect to say there are some things you haven't enjoyed in Movie A or Movie B. And that's all that's really been said, yet some people are claiming its a lack of respect. That's whats strange to me. I've seen nothing really disrespectful to Romero yet some people seem to think others want to burn him at the stake and piss on his ashes....

[Thorn]

Really good points, Moon.

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" camp. People who love GAR are passionate, and I count myself as one of that group. We have lived and died emotionally with his films. They are a major part of our lives. Look at us. I have been chatting on this site and in these forums since like 98 or so? I am guessing, I forget when I actually found a community of people as obsessed with zombies as me. I learned about GAR, and the other directors and writers out there who brought zombie stories to life. There is a certain amount of "GAR is the man" posturing and people who are viewing this as a threat to him or an attack on him. There are also those in a hurry to dethrone him and delight in his "perceived slippage"

Some have gone so far as to make it seem that way, that those who like TWD are attacking GAR, or trying to crown a new king of zombies.

So people fracture into two camps, and we debate and rage and get our fan boy knickers in a knot.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say it is OKAY to like both offerings, and the creators of the Walking Dead pay homage to GAR they respect him, cite him as an influence and inspiration. The creators are showing GAR the respect he has earned, we should too.

That said, it is OKAY to not like his latest offerings. It is okay to like one better than the other EVEN IF you do not *gasp* pick GAR. What you should not do is come here and start posts designed to create a divide and fan the flames.

We need to respect both creators, and we need to respect each other as well. We all have opinions, and I say again it should not be about who is better. We should just appreciate the fact that our beloved zombies are being given the chance to be featured in a major tv series with a large budget. It is more zombies, and more zombies done right.

Could we look at Rick's choices and go "God that is so dumb" sure you can, you could do that in any horror film. "Don't go upstairs" "Going off in the woods for a quickie is a one way trip to hatchet lane" "DON'T HIDE UNDER THE BED"

If these characters did the smart thing, the show would be boring. You need to create drama and tension, you need to move the story along. 10 episodes of 8 people locked in a fortified bunker where no one dies, no one gets in, and they have plenty of food and water isn't a zombie story even if zombies are outside. It is the real world with some background moaning and even less drama.

Who the hell wants to watch that?

[shootemindehead]

I love, love, love the Day score!

Another one here. I think it really works well.

[Rancid Carcass]

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" camp.

"Where does it say we should keep those dumbfucks next door to where we sleep? Where does it say we should do any one thing but shoot the mothers in the head?!" :D :lol:

[kev]

I watched it, and thought it was better then I expected it to be and will be making sure to watch the rest of it.

[darth los]

Another one here. I think it really works well.

Day score. :thumbsup:

A very "tropical score".

And about the GAr thing if we're gonna call people out then name names and examples. This whole vast anti gar conspiracy is a bit much. I've been here a while myself and can't think of a single person who enjoys "ripping him down".

Now I do know of those who are much more lenient when it comes to his shortcomings. They will say things like, " well atleast he's still making films or atleast it's better than most of the stuff out there. Now that's all true but it's their opinion. I don't see it as brown nosing at all.

Conversely, you have those who are more harsh in their criticisms because let's face it, the last 3 films wer sub par. I haven't come across virtually anything said that was unfounded. And again it's their opinion. I don't see it as bashing at all.

Review my posts for example. I have criticized GAr many a time but almost never on the original triloggy. Also, look at the recent TWD threads I've posted in. There's plenty of criticism of the pilot from me there as well.

So, and I'll speak for myself here, it's not an anti anything. It's a this doesn't make a whole lot of sense thing.

No matter who produces it.

:cool:

[Thorn]

"Where does it say we should keep those dumbfucks next door to where we sleep? Where does it say we should do any one thing but shoot the mothers in the head?!" :D :lol:

Ahh yes, and art imitates life once again... much as the undead imitate the living. *nods sagely*

[MoonSylver]

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD"

Yeah, & like I've been saying, it doesn't HAVE to be that way. And I hate to see it happening. :(


Some have gone so far as to make it seem that way, that those who like TWD are attacking GAR, or trying to crown a new king of zombies.?

Like I said, extremisim either way, not good.


I am going to go out on a limb here and say it is OKAY to like both offerings, and the creators of the Walking Dead pay homage to GAR they respect him, cite him as an influence and inspiration. The creators are showing GAR the respect he has earned, we should too.

That said, it is OKAY to not like his latest offerings. It is okay to like one better than the other EVEN IF you do not *gasp* pick GAR. What you should not do is come here and start posts designed to create a divide and fan the flames.

We need to respect both creators, and we need to respect each other as well. We all have opinions, and I say again it should not be about who is better. We should just appreciate the fact that our beloved zombies are being given the chance to be featured in a major tv series with a large budget. It is more zombies, and more zombies done right.

:thumbsup: Agreed on all the above.


Could we look at Rick's choices and go "God that is so dumb" sure you can, you could do that in any horror film. "Don't go upstairs" "Going off in the woods for a quickie is a one way trip to hatchet lane" "DON'T HIDE UNDER THE BED"

If these characters did the smart thing, the show would be boring. You need to create drama and tension, you need to move the story along. 10 episodes of 8 people locked in a fortified bunker where no one dies, no one gets in, and they have plenty of food and water isn't a zombie story even if zombies are outside. It is the real world with some background moaning and even less drama.

Who the hell wants to watch that?

Agreed. :)


And about the GAr thing if we're gonna call people out then name names and examples.

Yeah, because that always ends well...;)


This whole vast anti gar conspiracy is a bit much."

Who said there was one? :confused:


I've been here a while myself and can't think of a single person who enjoys "ripping him down".:

Let's just say then that there have been folks in the past who have been "gleefully passionate" about seeing how "colorfully" they can "review" some of this films. Many of these "colorful" "reviews" have some "less than complimentary" things to say about GAR, Fair enough? :rolleyes:

For me personally, I said what I felt like I had to say. That's it. That's all I have to say on the subject. Anything more & I have to call this guy : :deadhorse: :lol:

[Wyldwraith]

Here's the thing for me,
Survival is LITERALLY among the 3 worst movies I have EVER SEEN, of ANY SORT. Why? I'll go point by point.

Characterization: Consists of two-dimensional, inconsistent-in-stated-motivation(s) caricatures. Bad accents and even worse depictions of personality conflicts amongst the characters do not a watchable film make.
Plot: Again, the inconsistency and meandering of the supposed plot is nonsensical, irritating and amateurish, AT BEST. Example: The O'Flynn "Want to put the zombies down" ideology Versus The Muldoon "Want to keep the zombies chained up and with us"...is supposedly the basis of conflict. Yet just as soon as the O'Flynn's are left without a leader, we see Muldoon putting bullets in the heads of any zombies that even mildly annoy him. Muldoon's behavior, the INCREDIBLY MELODRAMATIC whining of O'Flynn's daughter, and the ridiculous Offense-to-all-that-is-Irish O'Flynn character makes this mash-mash into unwatchable garbage.
Pacing: The plot-speed is as jerky and inconsistent as the gait of a zombie lurching downhill.
SFX: Campy beyond belief, and so ridiculously bad that the viewer is aghast that someone who's been making zombie films for nearly 50 years signed off on these craptastic effects.
Zombie Kills/Zombie Behavior: Romero reduces the zombies in Survival to tools to create attempts at cheap "Jump scares." Every time a character doesn't seem to be paying attention, a zombie approaches silently from the perfect angle to remain unseen by its intended target until the last, supposedly/attemptedly dramatic moment. Then, the characters off the zombie in increasingly cheesy ways. C'mon, shooting the zombie with a flare, and then lighting a cigarette off its flaming head? Juvenile. Stabbing zombie in head with a barbecue fork with old rotten hot-dog still attached...::sighs::

There is NOTHING REDEEMING about Survival of the Dead, but THAT ISN'T NEARLY THE WORST OF IT.

No, the true horror is that SOMEHOW Romero believes that this unrelentingly shitty production, along with the nearly-as-bad Diary Are (direct quote here) "My best two Dead films to date."

You can argue about what you think of that, but you can't make the words go away. Romero has said, and more than once, that he wholeheartedly believes that Diary & Survival are his best Dead-related work to date.

What can you call that, if not delusional? How can words like these FROM ROMERO *NOT* kill your respect for the man as he is today and his current prospects of making anything remotely watchable?

How?

[Mike70]

Eh...there are some folks who do blur the line mightily...the verbiage they employ, or the amount of hysteria, histrionics & hyperbole (say THAT five times fast! :D ) that they use in their posts I usually find pretty offensive to be honest, & if it were ME they were taking about I would damn sure take offense. It comes across as little more than a personal attack IMO, wrapped in a "review"...but hey, it's "da interwebz". What else should I expect? ;)



yeah, point taken but that was not what i was speaking of. i was talking about the criticism leveled at dawn.

the whole "romero needs to retire" thing is a bit much. my comments were about the folks who believe that some of romero's earlier movies haven't aged well.

i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others.

[darth los]

Who said there was one? :confused:


Leo, DB.


Here's the thing for me,
Survival is LITERALLY among the 3 worst movies I have EVER SEEN, of ANY SORT. Why? I'll go point by point.

Characterization: Consists of two-dimensional, inconsistent-in-stated-motivation(s) caricatures. Bad accents and even worse depictions of personality conflicts amongst the characters do not a watchable film make.
Plot: Again, the inconsistency and meandering of the supposed plot is nonsensical, irritating and amateurish, AT BEST. Example: The O'Flynn "Want to put the zombies down" ideology Versus The Muldoon "Want to keep the zombies chained up and with us"...is supposedly the basis of conflict. Yet just as soon as the O'Flynn's are left without a leader, we see Muldoon putting bullets in the heads of any zombies that even mildly annoy him. Muldoon's behavior, the INCREDIBLY MELODRAMATIC whining of O'Flynn's daughter, and the ridiculous Offense-to-all-that-is-Irish O'Flynn character makes this mash-mash into unwatchable garbage.
Pacing: The plot-speed is as jerky and inconsistent as the gait of a zombie lurching downhill.
SFX: Campy beyond belief, and so ridiculously bad that the viewer is aghast that someone who's been making zombie films for nearly 50 years signed off on these craptastic effects.
Zombie Kills/Zombie Behavior: Romero reduces the zombies in Survival to tools to create attempts at cheap "Jump scares." Every time a character doesn't seem to be paying attention, a zombie approaches silently from the perfect angle to remain unseen by its intended target until the last, supposedly/attemptedly dramatic moment. Then, the characters off the zombie in increasingly cheesy ways. C'mon, shooting the zombie with a flare, and then lighting a cigarette off its flaming head? Juvenile. Stabbing zombie in head with a barbecue fork with old rotten hot-dog still attached...::sighs::

There is NOTHING REDEEMING about Survival of the Dead, but THAT ISN'T NEARLY THE WORST OF IT.

No, the true horror is that SOMEHOW Romero believes that this unrelentingly shitty production, along with the nearly-as-bad Diary Are (direct quote here) "My best two Dead films to date."

You can argue about what you think of that, but you can't make the words go away. Romero has said, and more than once, that he wholeheartedly believes that Diary & Survival are his best Dead-related work to date.

What can you call that, if not delusional? How can words like these FROM ROMERO *NOT* kill your respect for the man as he is today and his current prospects of making anything remotely watchable?

How?

Blasphemy I say! How dare you point out the obvious!?! Bow down before GAr. Kneel before ZOD!

See, now you're a GAr basher. :rolleyes:

I agree with virtually everything you said there so I guess that makes me one too. :duh:



yeah, point taken but that was not what i was speaking of. i was talking about the criticism leveled at dawn.

the whole "romero needs to retire" thing is a bit much. my comments were about the folks who believe that some of romero's earlier movies haven't aged well.

i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others.

Dawn is like one of the 5 all time films that I can watch ad nauseum ad not get tired of it.

Where do i send that money order for the BAn fund again?

:cool:

[MoonSylver]

i will be damned, however, if we come to a point on this board where people cannot openly voice critical opinions on things we are all fans of, because a few folks think they know everything and that their opinions count more than others.

And that's fair enough. Maybe it's justa sore point with me, but since the whole thing came up, I've aired my views on it. It's already out there now. No need for me to keep reiterating. :)

Here's the point where I'm gonna bow out, as I don't see the situation improving. Quite the contrary...

http://parallax-view.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/chinatown-final.jpeg
"Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown."

[Trin]

I'm a pretty big fan of GAR. I'm also one of the people that criticizes GAR's movies. And I'm also one of the people who criticizes GAR outside of commenting on the movies. I've expressed a fair amount of disrespect for the man, though I believe I've kept it balanced against the things he's done well, and I've kept it fact-based.

What do I think about respect? I think respect is earned. I think respect is a two-way street. GAR's track record for being respectful of fans is weak. The respect he earned and deserved with the original trilogy has been spent.

My rationale? Land was criticised for being too message driven, sacrificing plot for social commentary. So what did he do? He made Diary 10 times more message driven. We said Diary was too much nonsense, with gag kills and characters who acted ridiculously for implausible motives. So what did he do? He made Survival, which has significantly more gag kills and such implausible characters as to make Diary seem perfectly sound.

We're not talking about a man who said, "I listened to the fans and I tried to improve." That would earn respect regardless of the quality of the movies. We're talking about a man who thumbs his nose at anyone and everyone who tries to influence him.

Emotionally overblown hate-mail is never appropriate. However, expressing disrespect in a calm and fact-based tone is legitimate.

[darth los]

I'm a pretty big fan of GAR. I'm also one of the people that criticizes GAR's movies. And I'm also one of the people who criticizes GAR outside of commenting on the movies. I've expressed a fair amount of disrespect for the man, though I believe I've kept it balanced against the things he's done well, and I've kept it fact-based.

What do I think about respect? I think respect is earned. I think respect is a two-way street. GAR's track record for being respectful of fans is weak. The respect he earned and deserved with the original trilogy has been spent.

My rationale? Land was criticised for being too message driven, sacrificing plot for social commentary. So what did he do? He made Diary 10 times more message driven. We said Diary was too much nonsense, with gag kills and characters who acted ridiculously for implausible motives. So what did he do? He made Survival, which has significantly more gag kills and such implausible characters as to make Diary seem perfectly sound.

We're not talking about a man who said, "I listened to the fans and I tried to improve." That would earn respect regardless of the quality of the movies. We're talking about a man who thumbs his nose at anyone and everyone who tries to influence him.

Emotionally overblown hate-mail is never appropriate. However, expressing disrespect in a calm and fact-based tone is legitimate.

But how is it disrespect if it's legitimate, fact based criticism?

The truth often hurts but that doesn't mean it should not be said.

:cool:

[Trin]

But how is it disrespect if it's legitimate, fact based criticism?

The truth often hurts but that doesn't mean it should not be said.

:cool:I tend to agree with you, but some of the previous posters have alluded to the idea that any remarks about the man himself are disrespectful, and criticims should be kept in the framework of the movies alone.

[Danny]

EVERY ONE OF THESE THREADS:

a: "Nooooooo stop liking what i don't like!"

b: MY OPINION> YOUR OPINION.

c: STOP ENJOYING THINGS!

d: my taste=only correct taste.

It is a television show. i don't know what more i can say. it is an hour long television show.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/1286384916385.jpg

[DubiousComforts]

I think a lot of what we see here is the "GAR camp" versus the "WD" camp. People who love GAR are passionate, and I count myself as one of that group.
Not really. It's entirely possible to like both Romero's DEAD and TWD, or dislike both, or dislike one but not the other, without turning the discussion into the sort of fanatical ranting usually associated with pro-sports. The latter is simply lacking perspective. Liking/disliking, praising/critiquing a work because you are fan of the genre is supposed to be what the forum is all about. But that's not the same as purporting to know better than everyone else how a director should make his own film.

[Thorn]

Not really. It's entirely possible to like both Romero's DEAD and TWD, or dislike both, or dislike one but not the other, without turning the discussion into the sort of fanatical ranting usually associated with pro-sports. The latter is simply lacking perspective. Liking/disliking, praising/critiquing a work because you are fan of the genre is supposed to be what the forum is all about. But that's not the same as purporting to know better than everyone else how a director should make his own film.



I agree completely, it is very possible to like both. I think that kind of goes without saying. I like both and have admitted as much so that is not even a question, but as you read the debates you do clearly see lines in the sand people are drawing. Those who defend GAR bitterly, and those who rush to crown a new zombie king whatever that means.

Again reading the debates people say things like "bashing GAR on a site dedicated to him" and items of this nature, and that is one example. Any debate has more than one side. Here you have clearly two sides... and a lot of people in the middle.

My point from the onset is why pick one? I enjoy both, and why shouldn't you?

[Trin]

GAR's work stirs up strong emotions. It has since NOTLD came out. When something touches you in such deep and meaningful ways as the original trilogy did for many of us it's impossible to be emotionless about new entries. Would I hate Survival if it was a standalone movie by anyone else? No. I probably wouldn't care about it much at all. But since it is GAR and a Dead movie it taps into that place the original trilogy owns.

TWD, regardless of how much it resembles or does not resemble GAR's work, taps into the same place inside us. It's inevitable it'll be compared.

And there's no reason we can't like both, yet still compare and contrast them, pick them apart, weigh them, etc. I'll admit I tend to get hung up when people make sweeping remarks, but a consise analysis of pros/cons and apples/apples comparisons is just plain fun.

[Neil]

EVERY ONE OF THESE THREADS:

a: "Nooooooo stop liking what i don't like!"

b: MY OPINION> YOUR OPINION.

c: STOP ENJOYING THINGS!

d: my taste=only correct taste.

It is a television show. i don't know what more i can say. it is an hour long television show.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/1286384916385.jpg
No you're wrong! It's less than an hour long!

[bassman]

No you're wrong! It's less than an hour long!

You're wrong! The pilot was a little bit OVER an hour. So there!

[AcesandEights]

You're wrong! The pilot was a little bit OVER an hour. So there!

"Time is the substance from which I am made. Time is a river which carries me along, but I am the river; it is a tiger that devours me, but I am the tiger; it is a fire that consumes me, but I am the fire."

[Trin]

"Time is the substance from which I am made. Time is a river which carries me along, but I am the river; it is a tiger that devours me, but I am the tiger; it is a fire that consumes me, but I am the fire."What is bullshit, Alex.

[AcesandEights]

What is bullshit, Alex.

I thought we were posting parodies of how people argue online. The style I chose to emulate was the ubiquitous quote dropper.

[DubiousComforts]

I thought we were posting parodies of how people argue online. The style I chose to emulate was the ubiquitous quote dropper.

I believe the style that Trin chose to emulate is Jeopardy.

[mista_mo]

ur all so dum! I am clse frends w/ Fronk Darahbont, n i no that he thnks that hsi Tv movei si mcuh bettar then Jeorge Romeos dawn of teh lvign ded, er wtever it is called. Shit mna, I ply the film ass wel, n i wsa rigt tghere wen he waz filmign the episods. Don't fuck wit meh, i no all teh sekrts of the movies n film.

[DubiousComforts]

ur all so dum! I am clse frends w/ Fronk Darahbont, n i no that he thnks that hsi Tv movei si mcuh bettar then Jeorge Romeos dawn of teh lvign ded, er wtever it is called.

Ha, mo gives the people what they want!


We're not talking about a man who said, "I listened to the fans and I tried to improve."
To be fair, which director does that?

[JDFP]

Here's the thing for me,
Survival is LITERALLY among the 3 worst movies I have EVER SEEN, of ANY SORT. Why? I'll go point by point.



Yes. It sucked. But, compared to, say, Claudio Fragasso or some of Lucio Fulci's narratively incoherent films in which any form of logic should be thrown out the window, it only sucks as opposed to ranking anywhere near my all time top 10.


You can argue about what you think of that, but you can't make the words go away. Romero has said, and more than once, that he wholeheartedly believes that Diary & Survival are his best Dead-related work to date.

What can you call that, if not delusional? How can words like these FROM ROMERO *NOT* kill your respect for the man as he is today and his current prospects of making anything remotely watchable?

Dementia perhaps? Eh, at least "Diary" was better than "Land". I agree with you completely here though. Seems hard to believe his recent three films were made by the same guy that gave us the original masterpiece trilogy.

j.p.

[Trin]

To be fair, which director does that?
Does it matter? If the answer is that no directors care about fan opinions then my statement still stands. Any director that won't listen to his fanbase gets what he gets. If he disrespects the fans by ignoring their opinions then he'd better churn out something to prove that he knows what they want better than they do or he'd better brace for people telling him his head is in his ass. Same as every other person in the world who won't listen.

[DubiousComforts]

Does it matter?
Yes, it does matter because, unless it means kowtowing to the guys holding the purse strings, no director chooses to make films by committee. That's why they often become directors in the first place: control.

Additionally, are you certain that all fans want the same thing, or would this be a case of only listening to the majority? It's easy to sit back and say "Romero doesn't listen to his fans" but once you begin putting this idea into practice, you see how silly it is.

Btw, how do we know that Romero isn't happy with what he's already got? He's being paid to make small movies which have turned a profit. He attends conventions all over the world where fans stand in line for hours to meet him. Perhaps at this point, he's not interested in making an epic serial for TV and dealing with all the baggage that comes with a bigger budget.

[Trin]

Which is all wrapped up in my comment that if he wants respect he has to earn it. He does that either by listening to fans or giving us something we love regardless. He doesn't even throw us a "hey, I hear what you're saying." It's more of "let me tell you why the shit sandwich isn't shit."

And if he wants to make his money doing what he wants, that's fine too. But don't tell me (as some posters have said, not necessary you Dubious) I have to give him "the respect he's due" in the face of that. You don't earn respect that way.

[thxleo]

Does it matter? If the answer is that no directors care about fan opinions then my statement still stands. Any director that won't listen to his fanbase gets what he gets. If he disrespects the fans by ignoring their opinions then he'd better churn out something to prove that he knows what they want better than they do or he'd better brace for people telling him his head is in his ass. Same as every other person in the world who won't listen.

So the director or artist should just give you exactly what you want and do exactly as you say and not do what is in his/her heart? What person, with any intelligence, would respect that?
Artists take risks that sometimes work and sometimes do not work. What would please you? Should Romero just keep having people hide in a shopping center or a farmhouse? Would that be better for you?

[ProfessorChaos]

i think a few things that spring to mind are:

no zombie gags

no beating us over the head with social commentary

well developed and likable, believable characters

[DubiousComforts]

And if he wants to make his money doing what he wants, that's fine too. But don't tell me (as some posters have said, not necessary you Dubious) I have to give him "the respect he's due" in the face of that. You don't earn respect that way.
I understand where you're coming from, though nobody is saying that you have to like or even respect Romero's current works. I think everyone here is smart enough to understand there is a line that is crossed when critiquing films becomes an overwhelming need to crown a reigning champ of a genre (or at least everyone here should). Normal filmgoers don't care about these things.

I simply disagree that any director, musician or artist should base their work on fan comments or approval; that's what producers and marketing deptartments are for. Certainly, many people have told Romero that they enjoy his current films; I know I did in regards to DIARY.

[BillyRay]

So the director or artist should just give you exactly what you want and do exactly as you say and not do what is in his/her heart? What person, with any intelligence, would respect that?


An empty suit at the corporate HQ?

[Legion2213]

Regarding listening to your fans.

One of Agatha Christie's most famous creations was "Poirot", she was looking to have him killed after only his second story because she really didn't like him (said he was a smug fat git or words to that effect), but her fans loved him...so she wrote high quality Poirot stories for decades, she understood that apart from serving her own artistic vision, she also had a loyal fan base who she had a responsibility to please (they were the folks paying for her works after all).

George AND many other artists could/should take note of this.

Edit: I love GAR's first three zombie movies, I think Land is "meh" at best, Diary is an insult to the viewer and Survival I can't even be arsed with...does that make me a lover or a hater?

[bassman]

Even Michael Bay listened to fans to a certain extent during Transformers. Just throwing that out there. I mean...he's not the most story-driven director and he at least tried to listen and made some changes...

[Yojimbo]

While I get the issues that a lot of GAR's fans have with Land/Diary/Survival, I am somewhat glad that they are representative of GAR's artistic vision (though I suspect a fair amount of focus-group and committee meddling in the case of Land)

Though I did enjoy all three of GAR's latest offerings, there are a number of issues that I do have with all three. But that being said, I would rather GAR's films be a product if his singular artistic vision rather than have him structure his movies specifically to appeal to the sentiments of his fans. At least then we are getting a product, however flawed I or anyone else might consider it to be, that is undiluted. I would be more upset if he was tailoring his pieces based on consensus opinion.

Personally, I really dug TWD last sunday and look forward to seeing the new episodes. Like GAR's films there were some issues that annoyed me with the TWD pilot, but also like GAR's last three they were not issues that killed my enjoyment of the piece and will not cause me to be dismissive of the work as a whole. I'm happy to finally have a decent zombie series.

And while I think it is fair and reasonable to have issues with GAR's latest works as a fan and feel that they did not live up to personal expectations, I think that it is not fair to declare GAR as no longer relevant simply because of these issues, or just because TWD had a decent pilot. As fans, we should be able to appreciate the merits of both and be able to discuss the issues we have with both without some of the personal digs which have been posted recently.

[DubiousComforts]

Even Michael Bay listened to fans to a certain extent during Transformers.

If there is one group that nobody should listen to, it's Michael Bay fans.

[bassman]

If there is one group that nobody should listen to, it's Michael Bay fans.

Actually...he was listening to Transformers fans. Fans of a franchise or series with pre-established rules and guidelines. It relates directly to whats being said here about Romero....

[DubiousComforts]

Actually...he was listening to Transformers fans. Fans of a franchise or series with pre-established rules and guidelines. It relates directly to Romero....

Judging by all the complaints aired over the Transformers films (unlike the DEAD films, the franchise is worth hundreds of millions of dollars), I'm not certain listening to fans is such a great idea.

[Legion2213]

Just wanted to add that GAR leaves himself open to more personal attacks because he confronts his audience with his own personal politics - right in your face and to the detrement of his latter movies.

I've heard that a lot of people liked the first few "Terry Goodkind" (sword of truth) books but got really pissed off with the fact that his later books just seemed to be monologues about how great his favoured politics were and how evil the other guys were. Most audiences are more sophisticated than that and expect a bit more than political diatribes from escapist films/fiction.

---------- Post added at 06:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:36 PM ----------

I suppose the bottom line is that if I pay for a product and don't enjoy it, I have every right to openly say I dislike that product.

[bassman]

Judging by all the complaints aired over the Transformers films (unlike the DEAD films, the franchise is worth hundreds of millions of dollars), I'm not certain listening to fans is such a great idea.

Jebush christ. Once again you go all twisting things around in the name of the almighty God Romero. I was making a joke, dude. Not defending Michael Bay or saying he's better than Romero. If anything, I was taking a stab at Bay. He's a very simplistic director and even he listens to fans in some small way.

And laughs all the way to the bank at the same time, so maybe he's got the better idea...

[DubiousComforts]

Jebush christ. Once again you go all twisting things around in the name of the almighty God Romero.
Why are you getting all upset now? It's just innocuous commenting. Do you need a time out in the corner or something?


And laughs all the way to the bank at the same time, so maybe he's got the better idea...
You do understand the irony here, right?

[bassman]

Who says i'm upset? Aren't you supposed to talk in all caps or use the exclamation point or something when you're upset? Just doing the usual. Believe me, as much as I know you like to try, it's not often that I get upset over something on a message board.

Anywho...back to Romero's films. Wait a tick....I thought this thread was about TWD? :p

[Legion2213]

Anywho...back to Romero's films. Wait a tick....I thought this thread was about TWD? :p

Like fucking zombies ourselves...throw a few "GAR-Flowers" up into the sky and we all get mesmerised and forget what we were doing....:D

[bassman]

Like fucking zombies ourselves...throw a few "GAR-Flowers" up into the sky and we all get mesmerised and forget what we were doing....:D

:lol:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:UXnUTnTtV_enLM:http://www.kaitaia.com/funny/g2/d/9998-2/thread_direction.gif&t=1

[AcesandEights]

I suppose the bottom line is that if I pay for a product and don't enjoy it, I have every right to openly say I dislike that product.

Very true, but the issues of 'respect' and, in some cases personal attacks on GAR, that have bee cited by some, bring up hazier issues that are harder to quantify, let alone address.

There's also a matter of how some people will tie in respect for the man, versus respect for his body of work. I have certainly questioned a lot of GAR's choices with his latest films (though I think his recent track record is mixed, as a whole), and hence maybe he has not gotten complete respect from me at all times as a content creator, but GAR has only ever done one thing that made me question my respect for him as a person and it had nothing to do with whether I liked his movies or not.

[DubiousComforts]

Who says i'm upset? Aren't you supposed to talk in all caps or use the exclamation point or something when you're upset?
Well, also claiming "twisting things around" works in the Upset Dept., but I'll take your word for it that all is kosher.


Like fucking zombies ourselves...throw a few "GAR-Flowers" up into the sky and we all get mesmerised and forget what we were doing....:D

Ha! They're us and we're them. One thing's for certain: Monday morning is going to be really interesting and intense. :D

[darth los]

Even Michael Bay listened to fans to a certain extent during Transformers. Just throwing that out there. I mean...he's not the most story-driven director and he at least tried to listen and made some changes...

Exactly.



Regarding listening to your fans.

One of Agatha Christie's most famous creations was "Poirot", she was looking to have him killed after only his second story because she really didn't like him (said he was a smug fat git or words to that effect), but her fans loved him...so she wrote high quality Poirot stories for decades, she understood that apart from serving her own artistic vision, she also had a loyal fan base who she had a responsibility to please (they were the folks paying for her works after all).

George AND many other artists could/should take note of this.

Edit: I love GAR's first three zombie movies, I think Land is "meh" at best, Diary is an insult to the viewer and Survival I can't even be arsed with...does that make me a lover or a hater?

Uh, HATER. Duh.

It reminds me of the political parties here in the U.S.

It's either you agree with their whole platform down the line or you aren't truly one of them.

So say you agree with 99% of the republican platform but you the only difference is you are pro abortion you'd get drummed out of the party even though you're a warrior for their other issues.

Sounds like the same here. Either you swallow 100% of what GAr puts out and think it's cool or you're automatically a hater. :duh:

:cool:

[bassman]

Well, also claiming "twisting things around" works in the Upset Dept.,

http://www.funnyforumpics.com//forums/ORLY/1/405za1hfv5ih1.gif



Uh oh, Darth. You may have just single handedly started WWIII here at HPotD....

[AcesandEights]

Sounds like the same here. Either you swallow 100% of what GAr puts out and think it's cool or you're automatically a hater. :duh:

:cool:

I haven't actually seen anything that makes me feel this is the case and that it's a one way street. It's just people overacting on both sides and a lot of egging on to incite reaction or needle one another. It's all in good fun though, right?

:confused:Right?:confused:

[Mike70]

Uh oh, Darth. You may have just single handedly started WWIII here at HPotD....

bring me my armor!

http://www.unitedmaskandparty.com/Armor/images/italian_knight_armor.JPG

there, i think i am ready for further participation in this thread.

[bassman]

It's all in good fun though, right?

:confused:Right?:confused:

Clearly you do not realize that the internet is serious business....

[Mike70]

Clearly you do not realize that the internet is serious business....

or how touchy some folks can be over stuff that is pretty well meaningless to their real world lives; cannot be drunk, eaten, worn, won't pay the mortgage, won't fill the gas tank...well, you get the point.

[DubiousComforts]

bring me my armor!

there, i think i am ready for further participation in this thread.
No, your hands aren't protected.

http://www.westernsafety.com/stearnsnew/stearnspg4-I590-typeS-2008.jpg

Now you're ready.

[darth los]

http://www.funnyforumpics.com//forums/ORLY/1/405za1hfv5ih1.gif



Uh oh, Darth. You may have just single handedly started WWIII here at HPotD....

Me? Why me?

It's not my fault people suffer from "someone's wrong on the internet-itis.":

http://www.game-maps.net/staff/reborn/Someone_Is_Wrong_On_The_Internet.jpg

:lol::lol:

:cool:

[Legion2213]

No, your hands aren't protected.

http://www.westernsafety.com/stearnsnew/stearnspg4-I590-typeS-2008.jpg

Now you're ready.

...and don't forget the "safe word"...:D

[bassman]

http://www.westernsafety.com/stearnsnew/stearnspg4-I590-typeS-2008.jpg


http://christwire.org/wp-content/uploads/6a00d8341c08ba53ef00e54f8f5cb58833-800wi.jpg

???

[SymphonicX]

13 pages in, here's my two cents.

It was good, but over rated.

[Wyldwraith]

Beef with Romero is simple,
He does things he damn well knows and ADMITS worsen his films, just to "demonstrate his creative independence." Or, some equally goober-ish concept. I mean c'mon, the guy has been making, exposed to, and supported by Zombie-based Survival Horror for most of his adult life.

The man knows what the winning formula is for one of these movies, he just disregards that to continually prove to us that he's SO ROMERO that he knows he can fling Shit-in-a-DVD-box at us like a balding old baboon and a huge number of people will rush to get in line to be struck in the face by his next runny clod of feces, while viciously defending his feces-throwing to anyone DARING to point out that not only is the Emperor naked, he's suffering from late-stage dementia.

[bassman]

:lol:

So how do you really feel, Wyld?

[mista_mo]

http://www.westernsafety.com/stearnsnew/stearnspg4-I590-typeS-2008.jpg

Now you're ready.

Is that some kind of...what the hell kind of suit is that?

[DubiousComforts]

It was good, but over rated.
After watching a second time, I may be changing the thread title to "Very good, but overrated" in which case you have to move your post elsewhere.


The man knows what the winning formula is for one of these movies, he just disregards that to continually prove to us that he's SO ROMERO that he knows he can fling Shit-in-a-DVD-box at us like a balding old baboon
So what you're saying is he's screwing with everyone and he knows it?

If this is true, the man just leap up several notches on the Awesome-o-Meter. Classic.


Is that some kind of...what the hell kind of suit is that?

It's approved by the Coast Guard.

[mista_mo]

It's approved by the Coast Guard.

In that case, I'll take 10...you can hook a brotha up, right dubs?

[blind2d]

I liked the pilot... too bad he can't shoot for shit.
Anyway, yeah, first episode was good... didn't notice the music much, but yeah, going off alone was moronic.
"Hey, you in the tank."
I can't wait to see what happens next!
Russel: I actually have one of those suits somewhere around here... they fit everyone!

[Trin]

So the director or artist should just give you exactly what you want and do exactly as you say and not do what is in his/her heart? What person, with any intelligence, would respect that?
Artists take risks that sometimes work and sometimes do not work. What would please you? Should Romero just keep having people hide in a shopping center or a farmhouse? Would that be better for you?
If you read all of my post rather than picking and choosing the parts to take issue with you'd see that I am suggesting that GAR can either listen to fans OR give fans what they crave without listening to them OR accept that fans are going to lay on the criticism, often times going beyond the content of the movies.

To be fair, I've never heard GAR state any irritation over fan disrespect. My opinion is only countering opinions in this thread suggesting that flaming GAR is never appropriate outside the content of the movies themselves.

[thxleo]

To be fair, I've never heard GAR state any irritation over fan disrespect. My opinion is only countering opinions in this thread suggesting that flaming GAR is never appropriate outside the content of the movies themselves.

Well if you had read my interview, that's posted on this site, with him from last year you would have seen this...

Before closing I wanted to see if George might have a message for the fans and I honestly expected a typical response that encompassed some thanks and appreciation but George, as Peter Grunwald had told me on the set, is unpredictable and gave an honest and blunt message to all of us. "Basically what I want to say is forgive me. I guess the basic thing that bugs me, the biggest thing that bugs me is that fans want me to do either the last movie I did or do another Dawn or do another this or do another that - and that pisses me off! That's not what I'm about! I'm gonna make a movie, look at it, if you don't like it that's fine. If you like it, then I love it. In other words don't punish me because this was not as good as Dawn. This is what I'm thinking right now, I'm making this movie right now, this is what I'm thinking, give it a break! Look at it, maybe it will take you two or three times to look at it, but look at it. All I can say is that I'm trying my best and don't punish me because it's not as "good" as Dawn, because Dawn was not even "good", it was fun, but it wasn't "good". I think this new movie, Blank of the dead, is much better in a cinematic sense than Dawn, but I worry that a lot of people might think it's not."

It's here that I can't help myself and I tell George the reason why I feel so many fans gravitate towards Dawn of the Dead, explaining that they really like and care about the protagonists in the film and they also love that fantasy of being in a mall and having it all to themselves. The film hit a nerve with people! George tells me that he understands and does appreciate the sentiment but, "I'm satisfied that what I did with this film is what I would I like to do with it. The fans may be expecting something else, maybe not, I don't know. It's this magic, you don't know. You work on a film, you work on it in a bubble, you're completely in a bubble. Here's the movie - I like this, I like this, I like this, you shape it, you make it what you want it to be. Now you kick it out there and all of a sudden people either like it or they don't. I've never been an A list guy, I didn't do huge movies. I'm grateful that I'm still around doing these little movies, but even doing little movies somebody bombs you! It's really frustrating, it's very frustrating to sit there and you know exactly what you're doing, and you're doing things within a budget. You're not going to compete with the big movies of the time, I can't compete with the big shit that's out there. And you hope that at least your fans will come around and say 'Woo, cool man we're with you still'. Except that even your fans, even the 19 fans that you have, are split. 19 doesn't split evenly, so it's 10 - 9 liking it, not liking it. C'mon boys, I mean I did this, this was the idea that I had, I did it. C'mon stick with me."

Trust me when I tell you that when fans are disrespectful, it doesn't make Romero feel good. I just wonder how many of the disrespectful fans - you included Trin - would have the nerve to actually approach Romero at a show be as rude as you are on this message board?

[Trin]

Trust me when I tell you that when fans are disrespectful, it doesn't make Romero feel good. I just wonder how many of the disrespectful fans - you included Trin - would have the nerve to actually approach Romero at a show be as rude as you are on this message board?
I've put a lot of Romero praise, and a lot of Romero bashing, on this board. I've posted at times when I was frustrated and irritated. So, to be perfectly honest, there are probably things I would not enjoy saying directly to the man.

That said, if I knew Romero was making another Dead movie, and if I thought he would actually listen, I'd relish the chance to restate anything I've posted on this board to him. The good, the bad, and the things I'd likely be ashamed of and owe him an apology for. Because when push comes to shove he needs to hear it.

Keep in mind I don't post hate-mail crap, or "hang it up" bs. I actively fight against those kinds of messages. What I have done is consistently stated and restated that I believe Romero has a great movie left in him, and I've pointed out why I feel his latest movies have failed to reach that. To the best of my ability my criticisms have been specific, balanced, and backed by examples. And I feel I am one of the most polite posters here, especially when it comes to GAR criticism.

To your interview. I have to say that I believe it is good example of his woes. "The fans may be expecting something else, maybe not, I don't know." Isn't that kinda a head scratcher? He doesn't know what the fans want?

"You work on a film, you work on it in a bubble, you're completely in a bubble." I'm not sure I understand that either.

I guess I get frustrated when I read these kinds of statements because these problems seem avoidable. Did he ever reach out to anyone for feedback on these movie ideas? Did anyone have the opportunity to sit down and read Survival and say, "They're gonna roast you for these gags George."

I find the whole, "C'mon stick with me," message very difficult. I did stick with him after Land even though I disliked it. And everything I hated in Land got magnified in Diary. Then Survival took all the dislikes and repeated them (I liked Survival more than Diary, so I can't say it magnified them). And still I stick with him. I see his movies in the theaters if I can and I buy the DVDs and I tell my friends when a new one is coming. I support every single thing that he does. Do I have to say I like his movies too?

Long story short, if he says, "C'mon stick with me," at some point we as fans have the right to say, "I will, if you listen to my feedback."

I'm with Wyldwraith on this one pretty much lock-step.

[Wyldwraith]

No,
I'm quite simply done with Romero in the present tense, without affecting my feelings for his far-distant past work, or even the possibility (however remote or likely it might be) of great work from GAR in the future.
In the end, it wasn't any of the more profound or context-analysis based reasons I've cited of late.

Quite simply, I finally felt something FROM Romero-the-Man that I will NOT accept from someone who continues to maintain an expectation of making a living via what is ultimately and essentially fan-based revenue.

Contempt. Simple as that. I decided to re-watch Survival, and this time REALLY TRY to see something of the director who so thrilled me with Dawn and Day. To do my best, however far short of the mark I may have fallen, to view Survival with an eye to seeing what someone who enjoyed zombie movies but for whatever reason had no experience until that very moment with Romero's three most recent films would see in Survival.

To be fair, up until everyone was on the Ferry-boat I saw a movie with some significant character inconsistencies, a (being fair) very few iffy SFX, and the disturbingly bad prelude to the O'Flynn/Muldoon conflict at the film's beginning. Other than that, up until then nothing I saw made Survival of the Dead any worse than Resident Evil: Afterlife, House of the Dead, The Pulse, or most definitely The Pulse 2 (which I have deemed THE WORST MOVIE I'VE SEEN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.)

All that began to end when the zombie sneaked up on the leader of the army unit while he was talking with O'Flynn, and O'Flynn brandished a barbecue fork with a decaying hot dog still on it and stabbed the zombie in the forehead over the military man's shoulder.

The true END came the NEXT TIME a zombie quietly sneaked up on the military unit leader, as he was standing near the railing of the ship. After a short scuffle, the zombie was thrown against the railing, and the military leader grabbed the flare gun from the conveniently located box bolted to the wall, which he somehow recognized in a split second to be something that would contain a flare gun.

I watched, hands clenched into white-knuckled fists as the soldier fired the flare gun cartridge into the zombie's chest, which was then immolated from the upper chest upwards as its head promptly burst into a steady torch-like flame. Then the soldier nonchalantly leaned in and LIT HIS CIGARETTE off of the zombie's flaming head, before kicking it overboard.

It was then that I realized that scene exemplified much more than just a very campy gag kill. It was a deliberate effort to put the audience on notice that if he wanted to make the zombies objects notable only for being contemptible, he damn well would, and fuck anyone who dared question him. In other words, he knew his audience would hate it, but NEVER HAD A DOUBT that the vast majority of his fans would pay to either see it or to buy the DVD.

That's contempt from one man to all of us he was thinking about (in a general sense) when he put that scene, and others like it into the movie. I simply won't part with $$ that would prove he was right, and it'll take a great deal of time for my aggravation with the man's flaws to fade.

My 2.00$, your mileage may/will of course vary.

[thxleo]

To the best of my ability my criticisms have been specific, balanced, and backed by examples. And I feel I am one of the most polite posters here, especially when it comes to GAR criticism.


In a previous post, on page 10 of this thread, you said the following...

I'm a pretty big fan of GAR. I'm also one of the people that criticizes GAR's movies. And I'm also one of the people who criticizes GAR outside of commenting on the movies. I've expressed a fair amount of disrespect for the man, though I believe I've kept it balanced against the things he's done well, and I've kept it fact-based.

How can you admit that you are disrespectful and then claim later that you are polite as well?
You don't like his newer films? That's fine, it's a free country. I'm not crazy about his newer films either. However, the level of disrespect coming from his fan base just amazes me. That's my point.

[Gemini]

No,
I'm quite simply done with Romero in the present tense, without affecting my feelings for his far-distant past work, or even the possibility (however remote or likely it might be) of great work from GAR in the future.
In the end, it wasn't any of the more profound or context-analysis based reasons I've cited of late.

Quite simply, I finally felt something FROM Romero-the-Man that I will NOT accept from someone who continues to maintain an expectation of making a living via what is ultimately and essentially fan-based revenue.

Contempt. Simple as that. I decided to re-watch Survival, and this time REALLY TRY to see something of the director who so thrilled me with Dawn and Day. To do my best, however far short of the mark I may have fallen, to view Survival with an eye to seeing what someone who enjoyed zombie movies but for whatever reason had no experience until that very moment with Romero's three most recent films would see in Survival.

To be fair, up until everyone was on the Ferry-boat I saw a movie with some significant character inconsistencies, a (being fair) very few iffy SFX, and the disturbingly bad prelude to the O'Flynn/Muldoon conflict at the film's beginning. Other than that, up until then nothing I saw made Survival of the Dead any worse than Resident Evil: Afterlife, House of the Dead, The Pulse, or most definitely The Pulse 2 (which I have deemed THE WORST MOVIE I'VE SEEN IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.)

All that began to end when the zombie sneaked up on the leader of the army unit while he was talking with O'Flynn, and O'Flynn brandished a barbecue fork with a decaying hot dog still on it and stabbed the zombie in the forehead over the military man's shoulder.

The true END came the NEXT TIME a zombie quietly sneaked up on the military unit leader, as he was standing near the railing of the ship. After a short scuffle, the zombie was thrown against the railing, and the military leader grabbed the flare gun from the conveniently located box bolted to the wall, which he somehow recognized in a split second to be something that would contain a flare gun.

I watched, hands clenched into white-knuckled fists as the soldier fired the flare gun cartridge into the zombie's chest, which was then immolated from the upper chest upwards as its head promptly burst into a steady torch-like flame. Then the soldier nonchalantly leaned in and LIT HIS CIGARETTE off of the zombie's flaming head, before kicking it overboard.

It was then that I realized that scene exemplified much more than just a very campy gag kill. It was a deliberate effort to put the audience on notice that if he wanted to make the zombies objects notable only for being contemptible, he damn well would, and fuck anyone who dared question him. In other words, he knew his audience would hate it, but NEVER HAD A DOUBT that the vast majority of his fans would pay to either see it or to buy the DVD.

That's contempt from one man to all of us he was thinking about (in a general sense) when he put that scene, and others like it into the movie. I simply won't part with $$ that would prove he was right, and it'll take a great deal of time for my aggravation with the man's flaws to fade.

My 2.00$, your mileage may/will of course vary.


Agree with this, great post. Romero has made a mockery of the genre he once treated with such respect. It's a shame.

[Wyldwraith]

Thank you Trin and Gemini,
It's refreshing after so many "hate the movie, but the man and his personal actions/words/demeanor/possible mindset are off-limits for all criticism, which shall henceforth be deemed "disrespect".) Honestly, the basic "Disrespect Argument" reminds me a lot of people who scream "You're UNPATRIOTIC" at people who cited extreme criticisms of the War In Iraq. I'm NOT saying that I think it's cool to just rip on someone, ANYONE to be funny, or witty or even relevant, but if something that a director has done elicits a genuine negative emotion in you, precisely where is the great treason in expressing that?

Know what, unlike many I actually on-balance found more to enjoy in Land than I disliked, though the things I disliked I positively despised. I recognize many others feel differently and find Land to be as or more deficient than I find Diary & Survival. Yet somehow I find that I feel no need at all to defend Romero from the sincere negative feelings expressed by others at Romero over a movie that they hated and I rather liked (In a qualified sense, as I explained).

To the "Stay with me, Guys" Interview Romero gave, I retort with this:

Survival lacks the kind of grand theme that gives the best Romero zombie movies their oomph. The Romero of old would tease his audience with graphic violence so he could comment on social ills, but lately, he’s been shoehorning in the commentary around scenes that play to that core base of fans who dress up as zombies and cheer on every clever kill. Survival has lots of those clever kills; Romero just doesn’t provide enough reason for them to be.

And this:

It’s also fun to dream up these new silly sort of Loony Toon ways of disposing of zombies, which we can do now with CG, which I was never able to do when it was all practical mechanical effects, you know?

Important point here, which supports what I've been saying, about him knowing what pisses us off and doing it for precisely that reason.
If you look at Night of the Living Dead they’re eating insects, they’re violating all of my rules that I’ve tried to stick to since the second film. So now this is maybe something new. I hinted at it in a film called Day of the Dead, but this is something new. They actually do it, but the humans are too busy shooting at each other so nobody notices. So I have that in my hip pocket as something that will definitely play in upcoming episodes, if there are upcoming episodes.

And FINALLY, the very capstone of what I'm pointing out, using Romero's exact words.
"I'm convinced that my increased focus on the communications medium and the "feel" if you will of the Big Country-like influence makes Diary and Survival far and away my best Dead-related work to date."

This is "the pattern" that gets under the skin of many of us that, on top of being frustrated and disgusted with the obvious reality-disconnect going on here for/inside this man, is further inflamed when various "GAR Defenders" leap to the man's defense the moment someone on here points out that there's more than ample first-hand evidence that not only has GAR completely and perhaps irrevocably deviated from the zombie film-making values that made the Original Trilogy great, he's fully aware of the fact that his newer work is creating larger and larger numbers of former fans that have become disaffected with his movie-making credentials in the here-and now. That he has the gall to express something akin to frustration and disappointment in us, as all the while he assumes "we just don't GET his new films", thus condescending to us at the same time he's expressing his wish for us to watch his new movies again and again until we do get it, it's INFURIATING.

They say that the first step in recovery is admitting you have a problem/there is a problem, and that conversely, believing that it is EVERYONE ELSE that has the problem is the very essence of denial.

So what makes it such Blasphemous Treason to highlight these very statements and actions made by Romero himself, that confirms without further explanation required why so many of us have grown disenchanted with the prospect of more Dead films from Romero, and what's wrong with said director from the get-go these days?

[thxleo]

You know, I think some members here might need to seek a therapist to help them with their frustrations with Romero's newer works. Some act as if Romero raped their mothers or something. These long winded, essay length posts that basically end up equating to nothing more than pure hatred for Romero are absurd. :duh:
In my very humble opinion.

[Andy]

I Made one of these long winded posts about land once, becuase people kept asking me why i rank it my absolute worse zombie movie ever, and i have defended my point to several members.

Its not that i hate GAR at all, obviously i grew with uncle george and the holy trilogy kick started what is hopefully going to be a lifelong obsession with the undead. The man made great acheivements and i dont think anyone on this board can deny that, but that said, i despise the new trilogy. I sincerely think that old uncle george should of retired years and years ago, that dosnt mean i hate the man and i will still defend him and the original, holy trilogy with my last breath, but he should of retired and the new trilogy should never have been made, he has made a mockery of the very sub-genre he created.

In short, do i hate GAR? certainly not.. Do i respect him as much as i did pre-land? No.. Do i think fans of GAR have a right to be annoyed at him for the direction he's taken? Certainly.

[triste realtà]

You know, I think some members here might need to seek a therapist to help them with their frustrations with Romero's newer works. Some act as if Romero raped their mothers or something. These long winded, essay length posts that basically end up equating to nothing more than pure hatred for Romero are absurd. :duh:
In my very humble opinion.

Yes, there seem to be a few school shooter types here.

[Danny]

I Made one of these long winded posts about land once, becuase people kept asking me why i rank it my absolute worse zombie movie ever, and i have defended my point to several members.

You haven't seen vampires vs. zombies, have you? :lol: it is THE worst zombie movie ever made. period.

[bassman]

You know, I think some members here might need to seek a therapist to help them with their frustrations with Romero's newer works. Some act as if Romero raped their mothers or something. These long winded, essay length posts that basically end up equating to nothing more than pure hatred for Romero are absurd. :duh:
In my very humble opinion.

True...but the same could be said about those that kiss his ass like he's jesus christ...

[thxleo]

True...but the same could be said about those that kiss his ass like he's jesus christ...

Your thoughts are always so deep and original, bassman.

[bassman]

Your thoughts are always so deep and original, bassman.

"Deep Thoughts: By Bassman"


http://blog.earnmydegree.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/deep_thoughts2.jpg

[Andy]

You haven't seen vampires vs. zombies, have you? :lol: it is THE worst zombie movie ever made. period.

I have and land is still worse.

[DjfunkmasterG]

I have and land is still worse.

YES!... :lol:

---------- Post added at 08:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 PM ----------


Your thoughts are always so deep and original, bassman.

And your posts are completely pointless and unwanted. the only reason anyone will even talk to you here is for your interviews, otherwise you're just a dick who no one can stand... Sadly I am bigger dick but people like me more. :D

[JDFP]

YES!... :lol:[COLOR="Silver"]

Sadly I am bigger dick but people like me more. :D

Oh, yeah? Well I've got the BIGGEST DICK IN THE CAVE... err... MESSAGE BOARD!

So there!

(No, I couldn't resist it).

j.p.

[Danny]

I have and land is still worse.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/1288546360394.jpg

[DjfunkmasterG]

Oh, yeah? Well I've got the BIGGEST DICK IN THE CAVE... err... MESSAGE BOARD!


j.p.

Must be a small cave... errr Message Board

[Trin]

How can you admit that you are disrespectful and then claim later that you are polite as well?
Again, if you had read the posts, I used the term disrespect in the context of a previous poster who claimed that criticisms of the filmmaker are disrespectful, and any/all criticisms should be
kept within context of the films themselves.

And I clarified that specifically when darth called me out on it...

I tend to agree with you, but some of the previous posters have alluded to the idea that any remarks about the man himself are disrespectful, and criticims should be kept in the framework of the movies alone.

But I'll go a step further and say that the two aren't mutually exclusive. And as I said there are times when I let my passion and frustration come out badly. I believe my posting history displays those are the exceptions to the rule.

You seem to be intent on picking out the most negative things I say and making those the only things you respond to.


You don't like his newer films? That's fine, it's a free country. I'm not crazy about his newer films either.
Just out of curiosity, did you tell him that? Do you think anyone is telling him that? Dubious contended earlier (maybe another thread) that people are telling him they love his newer stuff. I just wonder if he's getting the balanced opinion.


However, the level of disrespect coming from his fan base just amazes me. That's my point.
I agree with this sentiment entirely. There *IS* too much disrespect heading towards GAR. But the contention made early in this thread is that any criticims of the filmmaker is disrespectful, and that's what amazes me.

[thxleo]

And your posts are completely pointless and unwanted. the only reason anyone will even talk to you here is for your interviews, otherwise you're just a dick who no one can stand... Sadly I am bigger dick but people like me more. :D

It's amazing to me how the mods let you post some of the garbage that you do. Half of the time you say something crude and the other half you saying something idiotic.
Oops, I almost forgot to add a little smiley(that way it comes off as simply a lighthearted jab). :D

[Danny]

you are both as bad as each other and no one else gives a fuck. at. all. take it to PM's because this is the walking dead section not 'leo and gary get there skirts in a bunch. again' there is nothing stopping you from ignoring each other and all this gets is closed threads and no resolution and a grievance between two people is a private matter, not something for a public forum and this got incredibly fucking old like 40 closed threads go. both of you grow the hell up and just agree that you both disagree on just about everything, jesus christ... :rolleyes:

[clanglee]

You do understand what "city limits" means? Ride the horse to the city limits (i.e. the open highway as we were shown where any threat will be clearly visible) and then traverse the streets by foot so that you're able to move more sleathily and under cover, if necessary. What doesn't make sense? If you lived in a world where the dead were walking and coming after you, your instinct would be to be overly cautious. You do know how to respond without sounding like an ass right? :) What I meant Dubs, is that horseback is faster than, and almost as mobile as walking. . so I personally, saw no reason NOT to ride the horse into the city limits.

Oh shit . . my bad, I forgot we weren't talking about the Walking dead anymore. . .

[thxleo]

Just out of curiosity, did you tell him that? Do you think anyone is telling him that? Dubious contended earlier (maybe another thread) that people are telling him they love his newer stuff. I just wonder if he's getting the balanced opinion.


I've never told Romero that I've liked any particular film of his. I've always just said that I'm a fan of his films and that has been it. Why would I go up to Romero and say "man, I really thought Diary of the Dead was weak"? Every film director I've ever been a fan of has made films that have let me down. Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron, Scorsese, Coppola, and yes Romero. They all have made films that I felt were duds but that is going to happen. Every artist is going to have misfires or make mistakes. But I still have respect for them as an artist because of their entire body of work.
A lot of this ripping on George Romero reminds me of simpleton sports fans. The type of fan that wants to bench his QB one week because he throws a couple of interceptions that cost his team a win. Yet the next week they think the QB should be in the Hall of Fame because he throws for 4 TD's and wins the game at the end.

[Trin]

I've never told Romero that I've liked any particular film of his. I've always just said that I'm a fan of his films and that has been it. Why would I go up to Romero and say "man, I really thought Diary of the Dead was weak"? Every film director I've ever been a fan of has made films that have let me down. Lucas, Spielberg, Cameron, Scorsese, Coppola, and yes Romero. They all have made films that I felt were duds but that is going to happen. Every artist is going to have misfires or make mistakes. But I still have respect for them as an artist because of their entire body of work.
A lot of this ripping on George Romero reminds me of simpleton sports fans. The type of fan that wants to bench his QB one week because he throws a couple of interceptions that cost his team a win. Yet the next week they think the QB should be in the Hall of Fame because he throws for 4 TD's and wins the game at the end.
Hey man, I'm just asking. You've shown us in interviews that he's frustrated with fan response. You're closer to the man than I am. I'm just wondering if anyone has ever shot it to him straight. Or if he's ever asked? If he's frustrated with fan response it seems like someone would be doing him a favor by giving him honest feedback. I get that you don't wanna walk up to the man and say, "You know the movies are getting preachy." But I also have to seriously question why he's not asking. If all he ever hears is what great fans everyone is then he's gonna just be left confused with the lackluster overall response.

I think the QB example was true after Land. Lots of ripping with no real direction. But no matter how little you understand about the filmmaking industry you know fire extinguishers and flare guns are not in the zombie playbook!!

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, romero hasn't even had a completion since land, more like a bunch of interceptions and fumbles.

[Debbieangel]

I have the utmost respect for GAR, he has kept the genre alive for all these years keeping horror fans interested in the zombie movies.
I guess you would call me a fanlady/fangirl of GAR, he does his own 'thing' ..do or die!
We all have our opinions of his triology and his latest movies and boy do we voice them...I just hope GAR keeps them coming. Heck, after seeing TWD maybe he will maybe think of going back to his roots for atleast one more time! There is always hope guys!!!

[Danny]

I have the utmost respect for GAR, he has kept the genre alive for all these years keeping horror fans interested in the zombie movies.
I guess you would call me a fanlady/fangirl of GAR, he does his own 'thing' ..do or die!
We all have our opinions of his triology and his latest movies and boy do we voice them...I just hope GAR keeps them coming. Heck, after seeing TWD maybe he will maybe think of going back to his roots for atleast one more time! There is always hope guys!!!

i'd rather see him do something other than a zombie film whilst its still in him. Hell i bet thats what hes wanted for years but only a romero zombie film gets dollar signs in enough eyes to warrant funding.

[clanglee]

i'd rather see him do something other than a zombie film whilst its still in him. .

We would tear that movie a new asshole too!! ;)

[SymphonicX]

Wow, I never really realised just how massively out of hand this discussion has gotten!!!!

There's some major calming down that needs to be done here. Romero's later works are always going to be contentious. The trick here isn't to be self righteous about it. You have just got to realise that someone out there is not only going to hate those movies, they're going to express their opinion on the internet.

Getting into arguments of "respect" and honour and shit like that only inflames the situation. Attaching more emotion and incredulity to this thread is pointless - you are after all, only reviewing a movie.

for the record I caught a few of Wyldwraith's posts Romero, in particular the attitude that has been fostered out of fear of criticising the man, and I couldn't have agreed more.

Bottom line is, if you're an artist, you will get critique.

But the real key here is to remember that Romero's films are only his films and if he doesn't want to recieve criticism that he seems to have a problem with - then he should really think about writing better scripts. I have a personal problem with people who write "open letters" to directors demanding that they cease and desist - that's the truly harmful fan reaction - the rest, reviews, critiques, analysis, etc are all part of being a fan, even if you don't like them.

[AcesandEights]

Getting into arguments of "respect" and honour and shit like that only inflames the situation.

Clearly you have no concept of the word honor, Sir, and I believe it's half past time you were taught what serious business takes place hereabouts on the interwebz!
http://worldsstrongestlibrarian.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Glove_Slap_by_hpanna47.jpg


I choose Hellsing as my second, I'll leave it your choice for second to work out the terms with him. Sabers till first blood, pistols at 12 paces, memes at dawn, I don't care. Choose and prepare yourself, Sir!

http://content5.videojug.com/c0/c0e05992-d13a-b47e-d9ae-ff0008c9a71b/how-to-fight-a-duel-3.WidePlayer.jpg

[SymphonicX]

"memes at dawn" just fucking cracked me up.

lol

[DubiousComforts]

There's some major calming down that needs to be done here. Romero's later works are always going to be contentious. The trick here isn't to be self righteous about it. You have just got to realise that someone out there is not only going to hate those movies, they're going to express their opinion on the internet.
You're asking for calm among a group of people that don't wish for calm. You ask too much. Anybody that equates a new zombie TV series as a means to (paraphrasing) "screw George Romero and the horse he rode in on" is clearly not hoping for peace and honest critique.

[SymphonicX]

You're asking for calm among a group of people that don't wish for calm. You ask too much. Anybody that equates a new zombie TV series as a means to (paraphrasing) "screw George Romero and the horse he rode in on" is clearly not hoping for peace and honest critique.

Yep - and those are the sort of people who don't deserve the attention they get.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Yep - and those are the sort of people who don't deserve the attention they get.

So do you expect us all to lay down and praise the man even for his poor entries?

He made 3 great zombie films and then went on to make 1 decent one and two crap ones... and I am supposed to bow at his feet for the mediocre stuff?

I give the man props for making me a fan of cinema, but to sit and say I love all his work when it is clear I do not would be lying of the highest order. The man needs to be told Land and Survival are shit, plain and simple. People blowing smoke up the mans ass doesn't correct the bad behavior of mediocre films, it only encourages more of the same drab BS tripe we have been given in 2005 and 2009.

[Andy]

I can create calm. watch.

This topic has nothing to do with the walking dead anymore anyway.