4th episode - "Vatos"

[thxleo]

Just finished watching the 4th episode this afternoon. This one was written by Kirkman and it's a little awkward and slow paced at times, but the conclusion of the episode truly packs a wallop which I'm sure will be greatly nitpicked.

[bassman]

You lucky, teasing bastard. :sneaky: :(

[thxleo]

You lucky, teasing bastard. :sneaky: :(

Yes! Believe me I wish everyone else was able to see them early too. I want to hear everyone's thoughts right away.

[Mitchified]

I too have seen the episode, and here's what happens.

1. Shane is revealed to be Lori's biological mother that had a sex change after a horrific accident involving a scuba diving outfit and a bolt of lightning

2. Rick goes back into Atlanta to save Dixon. He manages to make it back up to the rooftop where Dixon was left, but upon getting there he hears the millions of zombies below complaining that Dixon wasn't in the comics and is a stereotype, so he shoots the handcuffed man in the face.

3. Back at the campsite, the survivors are attacked by zombie ninjas. Luckily Glenn is there, because if television has taught us anything, it's that every single person of Asian descent is trained in the martial arts. He fights off the threat with the samurai sword that appears out of nowhere and dramatically (and cryptically) states, "The check's in the mail, bitches."

4. Having killed off Dixon, Rick makes his way back down to the street level where he once again enters the tank. This time, though, his remembers his small-town sheriff training and is able to drive the tank away to safety.

5. Amy dies. I don't know why. Let's go with she trips on a rock and falls off a cliff.

6. Dale marries T-Dawg (or whatever his name is) in a touching ceremony on top of his RV.

7. A promo for the next episode airs, a crossover between The Walking Dead and How I Met Your Mother.

...Am I close?

[thxleo]

I too have seen the episode, and here's what happens.

1. Shane is revealed to be Lori's biological mother that had a sex change after a horrific accident involving a scuba diving outfit and a bolt of lightning

2. Rick goes back into Atlanta to save Dixon. He manages to make it back up to the rooftop where Dixon was left, but upon getting there he hears the millions of zombies below complaining that Dixon wasn't in the comics and is a stereotype, so he shoots the handcuffed man in the face.

3. Back at the campsite, the survivors are attacked by zombie ninjas. Luckily Glenn is there, because if television has taught us anything, it's that every single person of Asian descent is trained in the martial arts. He fights off the threat with the samurai sword that appears out of nowhere and dramatically (and cryptically) states, "The check's in the mail, bitches."

4. Having killed off Dixon, Rick makes his way back down to the street level where he once again enters the tank. This time, though, his remembers his small-town sheriff training and is able to drive the tank away to safety.

5. Amy dies. I don't know why. Let's go with she trips on a rock and falls off a cliff.

6. Dale marries T-Dawg (or whatever his name is) in a touching ceremony on top of his RV.

7. A promo for the next episode airs, a crossover between The Walking Dead and How I Met Your Mother.

...Am I close?

In a nutshell...nope

[kidgloves]

Looking forward to this. Probably the 1st episode where I haven't got a clue what's going to happen.

[rongravy]

I don't have DISH right now, though I will soon again, but I still gotta wait until at least tomorrow to see this. Sucks, but at least I still got my man Kenny Powers to keep me company until then.
I can't wait to own TWD on dvd so I can watch them all together. Good fucking show.

[bassman]

It's 9:10 EST right now. I bet you could have it by 11:10EST. ;)

[rongravy]

It's 9:10 EST right now. I bet you could have it by 11:10EST. ;)

Ha yeah, I'm hoping.
I'm ready to find some shit out whilst I lay back with a nice fatty...
And I'm not talking about my old lady.

[Trancelikestate]

You dare mention a phatty in leo's thread? blasphemy.

Can't wait to see this one though. even if i'm not special enough to see it early.

[DjfunkmasterG]

So far this episode is lackluster.... so we have 3 good episodes and 1 so so... Hopefully 5 & 6 pick the pace back up.

[Trancelikestate]

ahh, it's 11 EST and it's not on PB yet. :( i no have cable.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Ok, good ending, but the pisode was still so-so. Need to hire better writers, or let Darabont keep writing. This episode was really poor in terms of story.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------


ahh, it's 11 EST and it's not on PB yet. :( i no have cable.

Give it a few more minutes... Someone is re-encoding it and uploading it right now I bet

[MoonSylver]

Great episode IMO. Nice performances, especially from Jim & Shane. Some nice writing, glad to see the doged SOME cliche bullets w/ a nice twist about 3/4 of the way through. A resolution to that scenario that was a tad "TV Drama", but it does raise some nice moral questions in regards to to human compassion. And the end? :eek:

---------- Post added at 11:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------


Ok, good ending, but the pisode was still so-so. Need to hire better writers, or let Darabont keep writing. This episode was really poor in terms of story

Eh, don't agree 100%. And Kirkman himself wrote this one, so take that as you will. :|

[JDFP]

Absolutely loved it. I thought this was the best episode yet so far. Non-stop all the way through.

Some thoughts...

I like how, for a change, this was an attack AGAINST stereotypes instead of giving into it (ahem, Merle). It was expected that the Mexicans at the garage were going to be gangster-like thugs who didn't care about anyone except themselves. And then, guess what? They stayed behind while all the others left a retirement home with elderly people to die. It was actually fairly moving.

The zombie action in the last 10 minutes was fantastic. I was happy to see that wife-hitting bastard Ed go. So long, bastard. I hate that the girl was killed though. She was fairly hot. Did anyone take a tally on who all was killed? I was a little confused in all the action.

EDIT: For all the folks calling Shane out as being "Rhodes in disguise" or what not, I sure as hell don't see it. I, personally, commend him for beating the hell out of that one guy. And while his relationship with Rick's wife is questionable at best and downright wrong at worst it doesn't automatically make him a terrible person (so what? He may have had an affair, it doesn't make it right but a lot of guys who are otherwise stellar people have a problem with keeping it in their pants).

j.p.

[babomb]

I wouldn't go that far. It was a good episode really. Aside from the touching scene in the hospital...praise jesus for random old ladies.:duh::confused:
Interesting ending though!!:skull:

[MoonSylver]

Absolutely loved it. I thought this was the best episode yet so far. Non-stop all the way through.

Some thoughts...

I like how, for a change, this was an attack AGAINST stereotypes instead of giving into it (ahem, Merle). It was expected that the Mexicans at the garage were going to be gangster-like thugs who didn't care about anyone except themselves. And then, guess what? They stayed behind while all the others left a retirement home with elderly people to die. It was actually fairly moving.

The zombie action in the last 10 minutes was fantastic. I was happy to see that wife-hitting bastard Ed go. So long, bastard. I hate that the girl was killed though. She was fairly hot. Did anyone take a tally on who all was killed? I was a little confused in all the action.

Yeah, agree 100%


EDIT: For all the folks calling Shane out as being "Rhodes in disguise" or what not, I sure as hell don't see it. I, personally, commend him for beating the hell out of that one guy. And while his relationship with Rick's wife is questionable at best and downright wrong at worst it doesn't automatically make him a terrible person (so what? He may have had an affair, it doesn't make it right but a lot of guys who are otherwise stellar people have a problem with keeping it in their pants).

j.p.

I like what they're doing with Shane. It's FAR from a saint. But he's not a monster either. He's human. ;)



I wouldn't go that far. It was a good episode really. Aside from the touching scene in the hospital...praise jesus for random old ladies.:duh::confused:


Yeah. I like the fact that they didn't have Rick do what you'd THOUGHT he'd have done, but I'm not sure how that one would have ended if a random plot contrivance hadn't wandered in...:lol:

Also, like how they answered a LOT of the Merle questions we've been posing... ;)

[Wyldwraith]

Dunno what episode you were watching,
I could've done without the hokey "Gangbangers with hearts of gold" though I liked the standoff and the possibilities it afforded. Believe that, in light of the MASSIVE manpower (compared to Rick's group), their fortified position, and the fact they had at least SOME guns/ammo, Rick was EXTREMELY generous with guns and ammo that physically represent safety/security for his family and the others. Look how much of what ammo they kept they chewed through defending the camp, you know?

I found the end of the episode VERY in-your-face "This isn't your sanitized zombie apocalypse" scene. Though where the HELL at least 2 and a 1/2 dozen Walkers came from all at once way back in the hills...dunno. I think I remember someone saying the comics pinned the reason on Glenn racing the sports car with the alarm blaring all the way into the camp, but not personal knowledge about that. Seemed to have exactly the feel you guys were talking about. Ie: About very likable characters getting killed with little or no warning. The actress playing Nadine did a fairly good job of projecting her anguish as her sister lay dying, and it was a nice touch (though VERY foreshadowed) her getting killed on her birthday.

As for Jim, and Shane's handling of it: On the one hand, I think Shane's initial handling was pretty even-handed, but his Alpha Male "Inner Control Freak" made him trip on his dick when he said "Don't make me take that shovel away." He was golden with his "There's no or what, I'm just asking you for it Jim." If he'd continued in that vein he coulda talked him down (BUT, I AGREE that it was a subjective and rather ambiguous situation. Not morally, perceptually. Was difficult to know whether Jim actually WAS dangerous. We can't know, but I FEEL that Shane mistepped and caused the situation to escalate into a situation where force was required. That is, as I said, open to interpretation CERTAINLY.

The ONE thing I fault Shane about genuinely was, having chosen his course of action and deciding Jim needed to be restrained, I feel it was GROSSLY IRRESPONSIBLE to leave Jim unattended for even a minute. After all, they'd just had a Walker in camp. The FIRST Walker seen up there. That alone shoulda been enough to at least restrain Jim in the middle of the camp, or somewhere else someone could easily see if a Walker was approaching. As this episode was all about, if you voluntarily immobilize a man in a dangerous environment, you assume responsibility for their safety since you've deprived them of the ability to Fight or Flee.

The ending...what to say. Hardcore, certainly. Definitely felt "real". Good timing for the cavalry. I'm still pissed at Rick for parting with a significant % of their guns and ammo. Even if he only gave them 1/3 of it (we can deduce he gave them enough not to make the Dixon's comment about giving them half absurd), that's still SIGNIFICANTLY reducing the protection offered their group, for the sake of a bunch of invalid elderly folks who by their leader's own admission are too sick/unhealthy to hardly go to the bathroom unassisted, let alone be evacuated. No, Rick couldn't have seen the future, but the FEAR OF THAT POSSIBILITY woulda been enough for me to stick to "I'm sorry, I brought the guns into Atlanta at grave risk to my life, and risked my life again to return for them. I sympathize with your plight, but you have dozens of big strong guys with guns and melee weapons, and a secured compound to defend your people. Mine are living in TENTS and an RV that 30-40 Walkers could flip if they tried hard enough. These guns and bullets are DESPERATELY NEEDED back at our camp."

Was anyone else aggravated by the Gangbangers essentially beginning hostilities, taking Glenn hostage, then threatening to throw him off a roof unless Rick not only returned their prisoner but gave him all the guns, THEN, when said Gangbangers get cast in a more sympathetic light which apparently excuses their behavior, Rick just goes "Oh ok, sure I can give you a decent chunk of this weaponry/ammo you have no more claim to than "We saw it in the street and sent a couple guys to take it."?

Guess what I'm asking, would you guys choose to do as Rick, given nothing, or done something else?

[MoonSylver]

Yeah, that was the ONLY thing I thing I didn't like in the episode. As I said, the whole resolution was *TAD* "TV Drama-ish" but, eh...:|

[ProfessorChaos]

not a lot of time for me to ramble, got an early day tomorrow. overall, another great episode. i was so ready to find out about merle and then as soon as glenn was abducted, i was totally absorbed by that and almost forgot about the whole merle thing. the vatos and their stronghold was a bit hokey how it all played out, but still believable enough. and man, that final scene, whew....with only 2 episodes left, i'm kinda confused as to where they're taking this thing before they leave us hanging for almost a year....already going through withdraw symptoms just thinking of not having a new episode to look forward to each week.

[MoonSylver]

not a lot of time for me to ramble, got an early day tomorrow. overall, another great episode. i was so ready to find out about merle and then as soon as glenn was abducted, i was totally absorbed by that and almost forgot about the whole merle thing. the vatos and their stronghold was a bit hokey how it all played out, but still believable enough. and man, that final scene, whew....with only 2 episodes left, i'm kinda confused as to where they're taking this thing before they leave us hanging for almost a year....already going through withdraw symptoms just thinking of not having a new episode to look forward to each week.

With ya on all counts.

Also, is it just me, or where there some really good zombies there at the end? :thumbsup:

[Sammich]

How come all of those people didn't turn after they got killed?

[JDFP]

How come all of those people didn't turn after they got killed?

They were just killed. As far as I know it takes at least a few minutes for folks to re-animate after just being killed.

... And that's the Romero universe. I'm not for certain (haven't read the comics) if this universe follows the same rules in that people who die automatically become zombies unless they were infected from a bite prior to dying.

j.p.

[ProfessorChaos]

just wanted to add one more thing: dude had some fierce fucking dogs....

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/2010/11/custom_1290398743541_picture_23_02.png

seriously, that one on the left, he's nearly a spitting image of my puppy jack...(who i've posted a pic of as my profile pic)....4-legged mack of the decade, for sure.

[babomb]

I like what they're doing with Shane. It's FAR from a saint. But he's not a monster either. He's human. Exactly. He's a hard edged "by-the-book" cop. In the 1st ep at the very beginning he was bitchin about his girlfriend not shutting lights off. He's a stickler for things, especially the rules. But he genuinely has the safety of the group in mind. He has alot of faults but so does everyone.


Yeah. I like the fact that they didn't have Rick do what you'd THOUGHT he'd have done, but I'm not sure how that one would have ended if a random plot contrivance hadn't wandered in... I was sure he was just gonna cave in on that. Glad I was wrong.


Rick couldn't have seen the future, but the FEAR OF THAT POSSIBILITY woulda been enough for me to stick to "I'm sorry, I brought the guns into Atlanta at grave risk to my life, and risked my life again to return for them. I sympathize with your plight, but you have dozens of big strong guys with guns and melee weapons, and a secured compound to defend your people. Mine are living in TENTS and an RV that 30-40 Walkers could flip if they tried hard enough. These guns and bullets are DESPERATELY NEEDED back at our camp." Agreed. But oh well.:rolleyes:

[ProfessorChaos]

somebody brought this up on another site, but it is possible that all those walkers at the camp were brought there by a certain somebody....hrmmm....it is possible, i suppose.

[Wyldwraith]

Well,
They've got 3 bite victims, 1 being-eaten fatality, one with a throat wound that would be fatal without advanced medical intervention that isn't available (and that's without considering the Infection), and the 3rd victim, the dark-haired girl who wasn't Lori...we see her dragged down, but the camera whips away before we see much besides the initial going-in-for-the-bites by 2-3 zombies as she's dragged down.

So, even if they're going with a "Must be bitten to reanimate" methodology, we're gonna have 3 more Walkers on our hands soon. That'll bring us to the classic zombie-movie plot device of being confronted with the heartbreaking necessity of either inflicting head trauma on a deceased loved one prior to reanimation (almost NEVER happens), or (more likely) having to put down a newly reanimated undead loved one.

It's a smart move "politically" on Shane's part to pull the "I don't think our losses would have been as bad if you'd been here" on Rick, as we see in the Ep. 5 preview. After all, things have already happened to damage Shane's leadership. Not quite in his right mind or not, there's no doubt others will think what Jim said when they have their own conflicts with Shane. Ie: "What, you'll beat my head in too if I cross you Shane?" Unfair or not, Shane being justified (I believe he was, even though his motives for doing the right thing were corrupted) or not, once a leader is forced into a situation where they have to use a great deal of force PERSONALLY, it WILL negatively affect the way people in a small group view that leader.

It's like in a wolf pack. Alphas RARELY actually attack disobedient subordinates. They signal, posture, and finally indicate their willingness to escalate to full-out force with a milder preliminary act of violence if its gone that far. An Alpha who has to constantly do full-on battle will destroy his authority himself. In human terms, when you begin ruling by threat of overt force, you "lose the mandate of the people."

That's fine if you, say, have a fanatically loyal military/police-entity to keep the people in check and perpetuate that threat of force everywhere, but when its just you, one on one with the people you're wanting to follow you, it makes you vulnerable to being displaced if a significant and/or PERCEIVED superior alternative leader emerges.

In the chaos of that attack, it might very well play that the people recall it like this. "Zombies came out of nowhere and attacked, despite all the rules we followed. Shane, Dale and (insert guy with bat's name)
did their best, but things were getting pretty damned dire. Don't know what would've happened if Rick, that Dixon prick, Glenn and T-Dog hadn't shown up. Rick was right, we needed the guns he left in Atlanta."

Of COURSE that's not the ONLY WAY it could play, but the mere fact that it's a POSSIBLE interpretation indicates a significant drop in Shane's stock and a corresponding rise in Rick's.

Thoughts?

Edit: The "Merle Theory" is something that crossed my mind too. It does seem like the thing he'd do. Mighta hoped either the group would be wiped out, or that at least Rick and Shane would die/get Infected THEN die, so he could take his revenge on the group personally. The only hole I see is how would Merle get all those zombies down the convoluted roads leading to the camp.

Shame they can't just make bows and fletch arrrows. Could just build a really large raft/series of rafts, stock em with supplies, and then paddle out into lake if Walkers show, and drill em with arrows.

Still, interesting angle to consider.

Oh and BTW: "The sawblade was too dull to cut through the handcuff", but good enough to cut REASONABLY cleanly through bones in the wrist? That kinda set off my B.S alarm

[Sammich]

The bolt looked pretty rusted and the saw could have gone through that pretty easy.The bracket also.

[Trin]

Well that was sure a slice of awesomeness!!


Just gonna wrap it all up in spoiler tags, not that we should have to. :P

Shane is progressing nicely from his simpleton idiot portrayal in Ep 2. His character is very layered and enjoyable. I like the moral dilemmas he's been thrust into and how he's handling them. Yes, he's a bit over the top on being a control freak. He's a cop in a martial-law-ish situation. I give him a pass on that. And he strikes me as one shotgun short of being a redneck. I like him a lot more than Ep 2.

Merle's brother is pretty damned awesome too. For all my rants about Merle being a stereotypical and ignorant character, his brother is worth it. He was a nice blend of angry and collected. He was definitely a guy to have around when heads need bashing, but you didn't see him going beligerent on T-dawg or others unduly.

The gangbangers were awful, and poorly handled all around. The transformation from gang killers to elderly hospice workers was just plain off. I liked that it gave Rick a chance to further prove himself the good guy. And prove himself the tough guy as he walked into there not willing to give them anything. Personally I think that was remarkable for his character.

The ending was pretty incredible. The series needed a reduction of characters and it was handled well. In retrospect it was obvious that some of them weren't being fleshed out very well. If you were told that a zombie slaughter was gonna hit the camp I guarantee you that it would be easy to tell who would live and who wouldn't. But that's really only obvious in retrospect. I think there's a minor niggle in my mind over *that* many zombies roaming into camp, and Rick and group showing up right at that point (after not running into any on the way), etc. But overall I'm good.

I wondered if Merle filled the truck with shamblers too. But I couldn't see them explaining how he did it. And if he'd driven them up the group would've heard him, or else he would've let them out a long ways away, in which case he'd have had to lead them up personally. And we didn't see him. At this point if they show it was Merle throwing zombies at them it's got a TON of explaining to do.

[Mr. Clean]

I really liked the episode but definitely not the best one.


Gangbangers?
SURPRISE, we aren't really bad people...100% bullshit....People with a hearts of gold don't demand things like a bunch of cock suckers and then play the we love the shit out of some old people card. The leader risked the the life of a younger kid too. Giving them guns and ammo out of sympathy was definitely pretty damn stupid.

---------- Post added at 11:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 PM ----------


somebody brought this up on another site, but it is possible that all those walkers at the camp were brought there by a certain somebody....hrmmm....it is possible, i suppose.

I thought of that too. I dunno how that would be pulled off though. Not easy getting a zombie into a cattle trailer let alone finding a cattle trailer handy.

---------- Post added at 11:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 PM ----------


Well,
Oh and BTW: "The sawblade was too dull to cut through the handcuff", but good enough to cut REASONABLY cleanly through bones in the wrist? That kinda set off my B.S alarm

Yeah, I'd have to be 200% sure I couldn't get through that chain let alone that the rusted piece of steel he was attached to before I'd go through my wrist.

[babomb]

It's a smart move "politically" on Shane's part to pull the "I don't think our losses would have been as bad if you'd been here" on Rick, as we see in the Ep. 5 preview. After all, things have already happened to damage Shane's leadership. I see your point. You're really distrustful of Shane. Is that because of the comic?
I think that Shane saying that to Rick is out of legitimate concern. Not as a part of some grand political "master plan" to steal away those who trust Rick. I think if that were to be the case there would be more focus put on things to indicate that. I think they're going in the direction that Shane is gonna start to feel like he cares more for Ricks family than Rick because he's always the one that saves them.
***I'm not making that as an argument in itself. I'm simply stating an observation on what might end up driving SHane's possessive state of mind***
I don't think they're actually going in the "everything was fine until you came back" direction in the same way as the comic did.
They're intentionally creating Shane as a character that people have a certain ambiguity about. Whether you share that ambiguity or not, that is obviously the intent here. I'm not trying to argue it. I just think that for whatever reason you may be over analyzing Shanes character.


somebody brought this up on another site, but it is possible that all those walkers at the camp were brought there by a certain somebody....hrmmm....it is possible, i suppose. Makes sense. That's what I immediately thought. If it was him that took that van? He could've also done it unintentionally. But at the same time, his brother was gonna be at that camp.
It's kind of funny to have this lone wolf character that can be suspected of all sorts of evil, but never be seen doing anything.:elol:
I would've thought Amy had a little more fight or even sense to her. The way she died was very unrealistic. The walker grabs her arm and she turns her head and watches as it bites a chunk off. Then she sits there screaming while the other one bites her neck open. Not once ever even moving away as it happens.

[Trencher]

Anyone who got surprised by the "gangsters" being good guys have not seen a hollywood movie the last twentyfive years. That Jim has psychic powers is also very dramaish. I almost turned this episode off to be honest but the end was good.
Overall I say that the extra material the TV director adds does not have the sharpness of the original work.

[Ghoulman]

Vatos’ was a pretty good episode, but what the hell happened to Merle?
I didn’t care for the Hollywooding of the “Vato’s”, BUT, it was handled fairly well as the two main gangbangers were the nursing home nurse and custodian so…meh. Rick handing over some of the guns was a powerful move to humanize Rick even further as well as show the leader-to-leader respect he had for that vato/custodian but it was un-needed development in my opinion.
The ending was incredible! I was chomping at the bit all the way to the end. I counted five attack/kill/bite victims (Ed, Amy, random black guy, one of the Hispanic guys, the not-Lori hot gal and possibly a 6th if they stayed true to the source material)… Will have to watch it a 3rd time to confirm. As far as the complaints about the victims “turning” goes? The episode literally ended right after the attack and we haven’t even seen the aftermath yet.

[babomb]

Why would the gangsters have been bad guys? Cuz they wanted guns during an undead apocalypse? Bastages....
What I want to know is where are they getting all this beer?
Everytime there's a campfire scene there's beer drinkin goin down.
Must be Dales!! Everything else is.

The inter-relational dynamic is gonna be further thickened when Andrea starts teaching Carl how to fish because her sister promised to. She's gonna develop a bond with Carl, and give Lori Rick and Shane a chance to play out their drama.

[kidgloves]

Weak episode. Would have been good/great if they hadn't bothered with the Vatos plotline. Totally contrived and poorly executed. It would have been much more suspenseful just following the group looking for Merle. Hate to say it, but I hope Kirkman doesn't write anymore episodes. Ending was awesome though and straight out of the comic book but with cavalry.
In terms of "turning", in the comic book everyone is infected. You just have to die and you will turn. The bites just speed up the process.

[bassman]

Cool episode. A bit slow in places, but the ending made up for it. Can't wait for the start of the next. :hyper:

[kidgloves]

After a 2nd viewing I'm gonna elevate this episode to good. I think the problem first time around for me is that they meet so many people in a seemingly dead city. It kinda feels out of place and took me out of the whole dead world for a bit. Interesting angle on taking care of the old though. Who would? Certainly not staff. They have families to look out for. Can't wait for Wildfire. I get the impression it's going to be one of the best episodes and then we have the season finale. Boo. Far too short a season.

[Thorn]

I enjoyed the episode a lot, some things I was not fond of would have to be the conflict with the other band of survivors. I was not a fan of how it played out. It all seemed very forced and contrived.

SPOILERS BELOW:

An armed banned of hold outs let another armed band they are in conflict with and do not trust walk into their "home base" with all of their weapons in tact?

An armed stand off is stopped cold by a kindly old woman?

I understand some of the players here are not street thugs, but a lot of the mare based on the dialogue so... I find it impossible to accept that they just were okay with this.

Those would be my only gripes. I did like the resolution, I liked the twist because it was not predictable, and I loved the character development throughout.

---------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 AM ----------


I see your point. You're really distrustful of Shane. Is that because of the comic?
I think that Shane saying that to Rick is out of legitimate concern. Not as a part of some grand political "master plan" to steal away those who trust Rick. I think if that were to be the case there would be more focus put on things to indicate that. I think they're going in the direction that Shane is gonna start to feel like he cares more for Ricks family than Rick because he's always the one that saves them.
***I'm not making that as an argument in itself. I'm simply stating an observation on what might end up driving SHane's possessive state of mind***
I don't think they're actually going in the "everything was fine until you came back" direction in the same way as the comic did.
They're intentionally creating Shane as a character that people have a certain ambiguity about. Whether you share that ambiguity or not, that is obviously the intent here. I'm not trying to argue it. I just think that for whatever reason you may be over analyzing Shanes character.

Makes sense. That's what I immediately thought. If it was him that took that van? He could've also done it unintentionally. But at the same time, his brother was gonna be at that camp.
It's kind of funny to have this lone wolf character that can be suspected of all sorts of evil, but never be seen doing anything.:elol:
I would've thought Amy had a little more fight or even sense to her. The way she died was very unrealistic. The walker grabs her arm and she turns her head and watches as it bites a chunk off. Then she sits there screaming while the other one bites her neck open. Not once ever even moving away as it happens.


This was a sudden attack, in the middle of the night. No one was even remotely on the defensive about anything. This shows the group was a bit too comfortable and complacent. She was worried about old world things like toilet paper not checking her perimeter.

She despite all she has been through is young, and she was bit. Pain, shock, fear, confusion realization of impending death.. all of these things could easily lead her to a state where she does not react like a super hero in a comic book.

How many of us who think we would react one way in that situation would freeze up or just break down? I am willing to bet a lot more than expected.

Just my thoughts.

[Trin]

Note that I really liked the episode, as I extolled a page or two back.

But now the rant...

The Vatos thing really cannot be griped about enough. The layers of implausible are only obscured by the distractingly poor execution.

The gangbangers did not act anything like reasonable, charitable, people of conscience until the old lady appeared. They attacked without provocation. They kidnapped Glen for no reason whatsoever. They did nothing to assure the safety of their own person. They showed no inclination to reason with Rick, valuing a bag of guns over their own safety. Complete beligerent idiots. I really thought it might end up with a shootout cause they were so hard-headed.

The transition when the old lady appeared was so jarring and contrived as to make my head spin. My first thought was that Rick ought to point the gun at her. Or that maybe she was gonna go all grandma on them and make them see reason. Either of those would've been better than what actually happened.

Given who they turned out to be there are a million scenarios that are more plausible than what happened.

Some specific gripes:
- Old people don't live in that kinda facility in those conditions for over a month. Sanitation and medication deficiencies would kill a lot of them. The resulting spread of disease would kill off the rest. The confusion and disorientation as medications ran out would lead to lots of noise and that would lead to a never-ending swarm of walkers outside.
- How did the gangbangers compound not get swarmed with walkers after the car returned? Where were all the zombies that we saw at the department store? The show really has to get better about the on-again/off-again nature of zombie swarms.
- Dude who got shot in the butt with the arrow better start writing his will. Without antibiotics (which are surely depleted) he's a goner.

I'm really glad that it didn't turn into a situation where the survivors screwed each other to death. That is pretty horribly overdone in the genre. It was a nice change of pace from that, and preserved the zombies as the main villain. So bravo on that at least.

I'm also curious how far the 4 of them ran getting back from Atlanta to the campsite. I don't see them hauling it for better than 5 miles given their exertions prior to that and the loads they were carrying. Yet I cannot imagine it being less than a 15 mile hike.

And the whole Jim dream thing was hokey. Didn't like it. Not one bit. :)

[Wrong Number]

It's funny, I tell my husband how amazed I am that people here nitpick to death this series. Come on people, this was a great episode and we have a friggin zombie series being well done on TV finally. Embrace it!

WN

[JDFP]

- Old people don't live in that kinda facility in those conditions for over a month. Sanitation and medication deficiencies would kill a lot of them. The resulting spread of disease would kill off the rest. The confusion and disorientation as medications ran out would lead to lots of noise and that would lead to a never-ending swarm of walkers outside.


Most of the elderly people that were already there probably had died by that point. The few people you still see remaining (a handful of elderly people) were probably the few that were still left around. Not every older person in a nursing home has some type of illness/"issue" where they have to need constant supervision and medication. In more cases than not, they just have no where else to go because their family either doesn't give a shit about them any longer or their social security check won't provide for them to live anywhere else except for a nursing home (where they take all their social security check). It also depends on the type of nursing facility as well. If it is a state run home, you're going to have people from all walks.

When I was younger my grandmother used to work in a nursing home (she was an R.N. there and the head nurse on her floor) and so I have quite a bit of experience in going to these places and visiting with the elderly folks. There are usually certain floors set up for the "more needy" patients (i.e. Alzheimer's/Dementia if that nursing home takes care of these issues, patients that need special attention/medication, etc.) and then the rest of the floors are for what are classified as "General Admittance" patients. Most of the "General Admittance" patients only suffer from being old in a society where old people aren't wanted any longer.

So, yes, the patients that were ill/needing constant attention would probably die off fairly quickly (and were probably already dead). The rest of the "General Admittance" patients would probably be confused/upset but otherwise relatively okay as long as they still had a food supply.

j.p.

[Sammich]

The vatos reminded me of the black gang encounter in Diary of the Dead, but Romero did it more believably.

[MoonSylver]

Speaking of which, forgot to mention last night, am I the only one who was reminded to "the people of 107"? :rockbrow: ;)

[Thorn]

The vatos reminded me of the black gang encounter in Diary of the Dead, but Romero did it more believably.

Agreed.

I like what they were shooting for here, but they really dropped the ball on the transition from locked and loaded and ready to blow to "let's follow the kindly old woman through the vatos inner sanctum fully armed and everything is cool so we can get the shock moment back story that shows u that these guys are good guys so we feel off balanced and are never comfortable going forward with our own thoughts and accepted stereotypes"

It was a great episode I just hated that scene/climax/conflict resolution....

[Doc]

Uh maybe it's just me but, did random people we never saw before just happen to appear when the campfire site was attacked? :confused:

[kidgloves]

Uh maybe it's just me but, did random people we never saw before just happen to appear when the campfire site was attacked? :confused:

No. They were always in the background doing something

[Wyldwraith]

Not just you,
I CANNOT place the 2nd black guy. There was T-Dog. That's it. There's a black WOMAN, yes. (And a character that really needed to be eaten BTW, for her total lack of contribution to the show. This isn't Old Star Trek, and we don't need a "Captain, I'm afraid" black woman for "color on the bridge"), but just can't place the 2nd black guy. The non-bat-wielding 2nd Latino male I've seen, but was glad they disposed of because he's as much a silent extra as individual zombies, only without cool makeup.

As for Amy, I buy her BEING ATTACKED that way, and I care BARELY swallow shock/surprise holding long enough for a chunk to be taken outta her arm, but the whole sitting there immobile and not moving until a chunk was taken out of her throat? BZZT, wrong answer! The correct/believable answer was Screaming PLUS blind thrashing/heaving/struggling to pull herself loose. Women struggle when suddenly gripped from behind all the time. It's how rapists and serial killers end up with defensive wounds. Shock is one thing, but once SEARING PAIN hits, Fight or Flight will cause SOME SORT of, well, FIGHT OR FLIGHT. People are not wired to freeze during prolonged attacks while being chewed on. Human beings attacked by big cats struggle more effectively than that, and that's after being taken by COMPLETE surprise. She'd already had her "frozen moment" when she lost the chunk from her arm.

It didn't ruin the scene for me, but it was an annoyance. What REALLY bothered me was their ignoring what Grey's Anatomy text could tell anyone. If an *adult male* removes a *mouth sized* bite of flesh from THAT AREA of the throat, your BEST outcome is him biting clean into the esophagus and/or windpipe. It was on the left, so no jugular vein, but as much blood as there was, there woulda been a LOT more. It would've been frothy too from the escaping air as she struggled to breath as her own blood began drowning her.

Now yes, it IS POSSIBLE that the curvature of the bite caused most of the blood to run down her windpipe. HOWEVER, I've PERSONALLY been 10-12 feet from a car accident victim at the Paddock Mall parking lot where paramedics were trying to deal with exactly that sort of injury, and blood was spewing in these AWFUL gurgling coughs/gagging sounds PROJECTILE STYLE every 3-5 seconds. Not always a lot of fluid volume, but enough that the paramedics were damp with it from hair to pectorals.

Whatever the result, without an IMMEDIATE intervention to keep her airway clear, she would have been gone FAST. If nothing else, the sudden drop in blood pressure due to blood loss woulda knocked her out.

Still, overall I loved the entirety of the scene. I'm even willing to voluntarily overlook the convenience of timing in Rick and Co.'s arrival JUST THEN, due to all the rambo-esque headshot goodness we got. Plus, like everyone else said, the show needed the extras thinned.

As for where the show is heading, that's easiest of all. To a MASSIVE CLIFFHANGER. Let's see, Rick saw a chopper. Now the group will be talking about moving/wanting to find somewhere safer post-attack. Enough airtime left to get them moving, and run them into the major danger/obstacle threatening the on-the-move group and cut it in mid-action, PRE-climax at end of Ep. #6

I pray they don't. If they do and THEN follow through on the tentative plan to forestall airing season 2 until NEXT YEAR'S FEARFEST because they want to bump it in order to show more of their cookie-cutter drama-TV, they'll kill this show.

Maybe if it had a 24-28 espisode run the delay would just be aggravating, but 6? The show's still just building momentum and cementing the beginnings of becoming a habit for committed viewers.

I'll bring up a show I guarantee few people like here, but is an example of this. HBO's True Blood. They had a 7-month delay before Season 2's beginning, after ending on a HUGE cliffhanger, and the show went from being another HBO phenomena to a program struggling to keep its ahead above water. Interestingly enough, True Blood is also based on a long-standing, very successful and LONG run of Sookie Stackhouse novels.

AMC may screw us yet folks.

[DjfunkmasterG]

Well i will say the dude who got shot int he ass has probably been infected. I am sure the brother who is the archer is not on top of cleaning and sanitizing his equipment enough and if i had written this storyline I would have played that angle to throw some of the groups safety off.

[blind2d]

Well I liked it... but I see what you mean, yes. I pray to God (something I don't often do, honestly) that it won't die after this season...
On a lighter note, I wonder where Captain Rooftop went? Did he really take the truck? If so, why not drive back to the camp, where his brother would be? Hmm... And Jim should get on the bottle. That would stop him from diggin' holes.

[Trin]

Most of the elderly people that were already there probably had died by that point. The few people you still see remaining (a handful of elderly people) were probably the few that were still left around. Not every older person in a nursing home has some type of illness/"issue" where they have to need constant supervision and medication. In more cases than not, they just have no where else to go because their family either doesn't give a shit about them any longer or their social security check won't provide for them to live anywhere else except for a nursing home (where they take all their social security check). It also depends on the type of nursing facility as well. If it is a state run home, you're going to have people from all walks.

When I was younger my grandmother used to work in a nursing home (she was an R.N. there and the head nurse on her floor) and so I have quite a bit of experience in going to these places and visiting with the elderly folks. There are usually certain floors set up for the "more needy" patients (i.e. Alzheimer's/Dementia if that nursing home takes care of these issues, patients that need special attention/medication, etc.) and then the rest of the floors are for what are classified as "General Admittance" patients. Most of the "General Admittance" patients only suffer from being old in a society where old people aren't wanted any longer.

So, yes, the patients that were ill/needing constant attention would probably die off fairly quickly (and were probably already dead). The rest of the "General Admittance" patients would probably be confused/upset but otherwise relatively okay as long as they still had a food supply.

j.p.But what you're not considering is that they started with 2 staff for the entire place (a nurse and a custodian) and had people dribble in afterward. Over the course of a month. Imagine the first few weeks. Basic sanitation for a facility that large would require a huge staff. What happens when the toilets stop working, there is no running water, no clean linens/towels, and no cleaning products? Confused or invalid patients would wallow in their own filth, having minor accidents that would lead to rampant infection and disease. They'd spread that throughout the place, hitting the other healthy patients and staff alike. The ones coming down off of pain-killer highs would wail and moan to an extent that the place would be surrounded with walkers, effectively barring wide-scale looting. It's a no-win situation.

Perhaps a different way to look at it is this - if they were surviving after a month of those conditions in a major city looting the immediate area than how bad is it really? The show has repeatedly portrayed survival as at times impossible and at other times relatively simple. It needs to make up its mind.

@Wyld - I sure hope that they don't try to keep us on the edge of our seats for months and months. That'll suck.

[BillyRay]

Well i will say the dude who got shot int he ass has probably been infected. I am sure the brother who is the archer is not on top of cleaning and sanitizing his equipment enough and if i had written this storyline I would have played that angle to throw some of the groups safety off.

Oh snap....didn't think of that...

That could come back and bite them in the ass. :)

Also, I don't get the incredulity over the "gangbangers with hearts of gold" angle. Seems they explained it pretty well in the show. 'Bangers come to check on assorted Grandmas, stick around to protect the elders against both Zeds and "Plunderers". (Prolly the nursing home was a better fortress than anything else they may have had) They were after the guns "just lying there", and of course came up against Rick's party in the process. Their worst crime is lousy timing.

Seems to me that with any number of raiding parties around ATL, that an aggressive stance is required. Especially when you're protecting helpless oldsters. They had no idea that Rick & Co. were "The Good Guys", so came out chests puffed, safetys off, being bold. Glen just got caught in the middle of a situation that was unraveling faster than anybody involved could fix. Luckily, cooler heads prevailed.

(I buy that a Wandering Granny could diffuse a tense stand-off in the manner she did. I've had a lot of Tough-Guy friends who will completely defer to their Nanas - it's a respect thing)

[Trin]

"What? Cause I rap about reality. Like me an my grandma having a cup of tea.
There ain't no tea party like my nana's tea party. Hey... Ho..." - Flight of the Conchords...

Yeah, I can totally see the granny coming and telling the boys to back off and show some respect. I actually thought that's what was gonna happen for a second. If nana had been a bit more hardcore granny (and less confused old person) that would've been quite plausible.

I can live with the improbably timing of both groups going for the guns at the same time. I have a bit of a hard time with the bangers realizing it's a bag of guns without having gotten close enough to take them already, but whatever.

And I can agree with the aggressive stance. That's cool. But when Rick says both sides made mistakes I thought that was a great line. The fact that the bangers didn't respond well to it was the hard part. That wasn't hardcore, that was idiotic. And how they protected themselves wasn't too bright either. Then to have them turn around and be reasonable, level-headed, intelligent... Eh, not a huge deal, but that whole interaction coulda been different or non-existent.

[Doc]

Not just you,
I CANNOT place the 2nd black guy. There was T-Dog. That's it. There's a black WOMAN, yes. (And a character that really needed to be eaten BTW, for her total lack of contribution to the show. This isn't Old Star Trek, and we don't need a "Captain, I'm afraid" black woman for "color on the bridge"), but just can't place the 2nd black guy. The non-bat-wielding 2nd Latino male I've seen, but was glad they disposed of because he's as much a silent extra as individual zombies, only without cool makeup.


I missed episode 2 and the first 10 minutes of episode 3 so maybe, I missed the extra characters introduction. I was like, "what who the hell is that?" when the zeds attacked them it really took me out of the scene. Did even get as, much as a line any of them? Oh well, they were just canon fodder anyway.


http://www.shocktillyoudrop.com/gallery/14666/The_Walking_Dead_%28TV%29_107.jpg

Dr. Tounge's sister?


Also, am I the only one liking Daryl character?

[ProfessorChaos]

daryl is the man. my favorite character added just for the tv show so far.

[MoonSylver]

Yeah, Reedus is a likable actor & I didn't expect him to have much of a part, or if he did, about like Rookers, so this is nice. We'll see how far it continues. ;) :)

[bassman]

I was surprised how Darrell seemed to care about the well being of the camp once he realized Merle was probably on his way there to get revenge. He might be changing into a more heroic character. My wife had the idea that if Merle did lead the zombies to the quarry and if he's gone crazy....she thinks Darrell will come to the rescue and be the one to put him down. I thought that was an interesting angle...

[wayzim]

Love the episode and really didn't have much to criticize about it.
All the characters pretty much acted as they would, even the urban survivors. I mean, it's not one of my stories or Romero's so it goes as Darabont intended it to ( if we listen to the dialog as well as looking at the pretty pictures. )
I've known enough hard-asses that are actually decent people to imagine folks trying to act well under the worst circumstances, so it's not that far removed from reality for either Darrell or the leader of the city crew to step down abit.
As for who does what under stress, it's always a crapshoot ... always. There's this fun saying 'Under the most strict laboratory conditions, the subject will do whatever it damn well pleases. '
So the most reasonable response from the characters is what the scriptwriter decides it is.
This is, by far, the best written and best paced show I've seen in any genre, so many creds to the crew for getting it done and getting a second season from AMC.

Wayne Z
"When a fan asks How Fast Starfuries go, I tell them they go at the speed of Plot. "
J MIchael Strazynski

[sandrock74]

I wonder now, since Rick helpled arm the people at the old folks home, if the survivors now have potential allies in the Atlanta area? Seems to me that they would be thankful to Rick for helping them out and be willing to return the favor in the future...

Also, not so sure that Merle would have brought the zombies back to the camp, as that would involve him putting his own brother in danger. Of course, I am assuming that the two of them had a "normal" sibling relationship. Personally, I thought these were the zombies that showed up due to Glenn's car alarm from the last episode. Hey, zombies move slow, but they don't give up! There could still be more on the way!

Just my thoughts.

[ProfessorChaos]

i only watched the episode once, but it seemed to me that one of the zombies looked an awful lot like the first one glenn passed by (the one sitting in the car, he was also shown in the first trailer). if that happens to be the same zombie, then that's a definite sign that the zombies were brought to the campsite. sure seemed like a lot to just show up at the same time, ya know?

[acealive1]

Uh maybe it's just me but, did random people we never saw before just happen to appear when the campfire site was attacked? :confused:

LOL yea. i saw the black guy getting his back chewed up and im like "uhhh, where'd he come from?"

[bassman]

As mentioned before, there were always extra people in the background of the camp. Not just the main characters...

[acealive1]

Yeah, Reedus is a likable actor & I didn't expect him to have much of a part, or if he did, about like Rookers, so this is nice. We'll see how far it continues. ;) :)


he was a bastard in blade 2, but here he seems like the exact flipside of his brother.

[DEAD BEAT]

I must say guys these keep gettin better & better!

Episode 4 was kick ass, totally felt the Dawn '78 vibe when they were sneaking through the alley! ;)

[AcesandEights]

Absolutely loved it. I thought this was the best episode yet so far. Non-stop all the way through.

I completely agree! I just saw the episode and was surprised to stop in and see that both THXLEO and DJ thought something was off with it. Hell, I thought the pacing in this episode was great. Not only did we get solid performances, but things actually happened in this episode and I felt the flow and progression of the story was natural and satisfying.

I'll read more of the thread before I chime in with more, but I'm very pleased.

[Legion2213]

Have to agree with the folks calling this the best episode to date.

The attack on the camp was top fucking draw, watching zombies getting their arms blown off always makes me whoop and holler with delight! :)

Merles brother is shaping up to be a pretty useful killer to have around as well and a good character to have in the show (although he'll probably side with merle if he ever shows up again). That said, Merle is pretty fucking driven, he's gone through Hell and it looks like he is still standing (probably fueled by hate, revenge and self pity). :cool:

Some of the effects on display here are just sublime as well, the walkers really are "all messed up" and just look excellent.

Only downside is that we only have two episodes left until we get season two sometime next year...they need to get the season 1 BD/DVD out a.s.a.p!

[FunkyPertwee]

Episode three sucked. I thought this one was great.

The main character gave the guns away so for good karma essentially. He may need some friends up the line.

[Legion2213]

I wonder now, since Rick helpled arm the people at the old folks home, if the survivors now have potential allies in the Atlanta area? Seems to me that they would be thankful to Rick for helping them out and be willing to return the favor in the future...Just my thoughts.

This is a valid musing IMO. The leader of those folks was obviously pretty reasonable and decent when he realised he didn't have to view Rick & co as looters/bandits/threats. So yeah, I can see our survivors being on good terms with that other crew in the future.

---------- Post added at 10:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 AM ----------


It's funny, I tell my husband how amazed I am that people here nitpick to death this series. Come on people, this was a great episode and we have a friggin zombie series being well done on TV finally. Embrace it!

WN

Wrong Number - Right Attitude! :cool:

An honest to goodness zombie TV series with a guaranteed second season to come...embrace it? I'm trying to get in it's pants! :D

I don't care what people think about the pacing of episode 4 or the handling of the gang...the zombie camp assault was just a joy to behold. :)

[DjfunkmasterG]

I completely agree! I just saw the episode and was surprised to stop in and see that both THXLEO and DJ thought something was off with it. Hell, I thought the pacing in this episode was great. Not only did we get solid performances, but things actually happened in this episode and I felt the flow and progression of the story was natural and satisfying.

I'll read more of the thread before I chime in with more, but I'm very pleased.

I will say my problem with it is that I use the first episode to compare the entire series. With this episode it just didn't feel right. I am not saying that there is something majorly wrong with it... we got some good zombie carnage at the end, but everything leading up to it was sort of ho-hum. Now, the guy diging the holes, Jim, him having a mental moment and having to be restrained was a bit interesting, although restraining him to a tree was probably not the best idea considering zombies roam about... could have been another Merle moment, I would have found another way to isolate him from the others... maybe even using the RV.

Now my other problem with this episode was the Vatos themselves, but having had many latino friends growing up the diffusion of the situation was realistic because they have a lot of respect for their elders and family, and to be seen doing something like that by an elderly family member brings down a lot of scorn on them and their family does not easily forgive and forget... it is a catholic thing.

My biggest issue was how lax they were at the camp. Sorry I just don't buy it... considering a zombie already invaded the camp, why would you just let yourself act like all is ok. That was a bunch of BS. Sorry but there is no fucking way anyone would get that comfortable, especially in a zombie apocalypse. Forget the fact that zombie movies probably DO NOT exist in this universe and just go off the fact they learned what they know from news reports... knowing how dangerous those things are I just don't buy that Shane or anyone else would settle in like that especially since, like I said, a zombie already invaded the place.

Now, what I do like about the episode is the fact they have spent a lot of time int he city so far, and that to me has been a highlight of the show. Add to the fact that Rick, Glen and Daryl are my favorite characters I think this still has a lot of potential, i just hope that Season 2 doesn't make these same mistakes... They have a potential long term hit on their hands if they follow some simple rules for survival... I mean Kirkman and Nicotero are huge zombie fans, with greg being a Consulting producer I just can't buy that he wouldn't jump in and say... this wouldn't happen or fans may jump on this as a flaw.

If i were the consulting producer I would have probably gone through the screenplays and removed a lot of this dumbshit and definitely asked for a re-writer of the VATOS scenes. The storyline for VATOS had potential it was just poorly executed. the best thing about the episode was the Jim storyline and how uneasy he was and the fact he is slipping into a mental state that could be unsafe for everyone. This was probably the most realistic element of the entire episode and I thought it was pretty well executed... everything else was either "Chuffa" or just poorly written crap.

So far my favorite episodes are in this order

1
3
2
4

I am hoping 5 & 6 correct a lot of the issues from Episode 4. I am not saying that if it continues to decline I would stop watching, but if the rest of the episodes continue like #4 there is a good chane this show will die off pretty fast. I am surprised AMC and Darabont didn't go over the script and ask for more re-writes on that episode. While I love Kirkmans work in the comics... my personal feeling is he should stay away from writing anymore episodes, I know I am not the greatest writer either, but this is something that definitely needed more work.

[bassman]

I was just watching the Behind the Scenes of "Vatos" and it got me thinking. Are we sure that Nicotero was the "deer" zombie in "Tell It To The Frogs"? I'm not so sure that was him considering he's the one that bites Amy in the following episode....

[Skold]

I was just watching the Behind the Scenes of "Vatos" and it got me thinking. Are we sure that Nicotero was the "deer" zombie in "Tell It To The Frogs"? I'm not so sure that was him considering he's the one that bites Amy in the following episode....

Yeah, he plays both "characters":


I think [Walking Dead makeup supervisor] Greg Nicotero’s makeup job on the main zombie that appears in episode three is one of this best. And it’s also important to note that that is him, actually.


He pops up quite a bit in the first six episodes. More than you’d think.

http://popwatch.ew.com/2010/11/15/walking-dead-robert-kirkman-frogs/

[bassman]

Greg Nicotero is the Eddie Murphy of zombie films. :lol:

[DEAD BEAT]

Have to agree with the folks calling this the best episode to date.

The attack on the camp was top fucking draw, watching zombies getting their arms blown off always makes me whoop and holler with delight! :)

Merles brother is shaping up to be a pretty useful killer to have around as well and a good character to have in the show (although he'll probably side with merle if he ever shows up again). That said, Merle is pretty fucking driven, he's gone through Hell and it looks like he is still standing (probably fueled by hate, revenge and self pity). :cool:

Some of the effects on display here are just sublime as well, the walkers really are "all messed up" and just look excellent.

Only downside is that we only have two episodes left until we get season two sometime next year...they need to get the season 1 BD/DVD out a.s.a.p!

"only way that Merle @ this point will turn up is if someone steps in zombie turd!" lmao

---------- Post added at 08:29 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 AM ----------


Greg Nicotero is the Eddie Murphy of zombie films. :lol:

wow i musta been high...i didn't realise he was part of this series, but not surprised after all he was groomed by Savini himself! ;)

[bassman]

wow i musta been high...i didn't realise he was part of this series, but not surprised after all he was groomed by Savini himself! ;)

What are you smoking?:lol:

He's a huge part of this series. Not just make up, but he's also a "consulting" producer. In interviews Darabont has said they've been friends for many years, so I guess that's why he brought him along. No better man for the job, really...

[DEAD BEAT]

What are you smoking?:lol:

He's a huge part of this series. Not just make up, but he's also a "consulting" producer. In interviews Darabont has said they've been friends for many years, so I guess that's why he brought him along. No better man for the job, really...

oh no doubt, Savini is winding down these days which pretty much leaves Greg to the thrown he's probably next to Savini one of the last Mohicans as far as zombie films go! ;)

We all remember a young Nicotero smokin' dope in the original Day of the Dead, diffinitly would be my choice!

---------- Post added at 09:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 AM ----------

btw: Bass Sponge Bob looks like he just witnessed the funk which is Patrick pitchin' a loaf! lol ;)

[kidgloves]

Looks like its true we won't get the 2nd season until Oct 11. One of the mid level characters was interviewed on one of the podcasts and he said AMC didn't want him back until May to start shooting again. Unless this guy gets separated from the group before the end of ep6, I'm taking that as a good indicator for a late next year premiere. Lincoln's also referred to early summer as "back to work"

[MikePizzoff]

So I guess I'm in the minority by thinking this was, by far, the worst episode yet?

Yet even more horrific unnecessary stereotypes. Really, a bunch of [stereotypical latino] gangsters ready to kill Glenn and blast the rest in the face over a few guns, yet they deeply care for a large group of elderly??? Ugggh.

Also, why is it that Daryl doesn't give two shits about any of the other guys and is gung-ho about finding his brother, Merle, but suddenly when Glenn gets kidnapped, he's all about helping Rick and T-Dog save him??? Then once they DO "save" Glenn from the orderlies, Daryl suddenly seems to forget all about Merle and is content with leaving the city, even though Merle was the sole reason he went there? It's not until they discover the van is missing that he seems to have any care of Merle.

And another thing! Andrea's sister just STANDS there for the first few seconds she sees a zombie and completely allows it to bite her! WTF?! Terrible directing right there.

There were a couple more things that irked me, but I'll allow you guys to retort/attack those three things.

[JDFP]

Also, why is it that Daryl doesn't give two shits about any of the other guys and is gung-ho about finding his brother, Merle, but suddenly when Glenn gets kidnapped, he's all about helping Rick and T-Dog save him???

From what I saw Daryl didn't want to help at all at first. It was Rick who told him and T. to go back to camp as he was going to go after Glenn himself. When Daryl realized that he was going to probably die in doing it he decided to stand with him and T. in giving them a fight. I don't know that it was so much in saving Glenn so much as standing with his group of people.

I wonder if Merle an Daryl have another brother named Daryl.

j.p.

[AcesandEights]

So I guess I'm in the minority by thinking this was, by far, the worst episode yet?
No, others further up the thread chain felt that way too.


Yet even more horrific unnecessary stereotypes.
Disagree.


Really, a bunch of [stereotypical latino] gangsters ready to kill Glenn and blast the rest in the face over a few guns, yet they deeply care for a large group of elderly??? Ugggh.
Yeah, humans...they are a complex lot. Also, they weren't about taking Glenn as a hostage till Daryl seemingly assaulted and took a hostage of his own.


Also, why is it that Daryl doesn't give two shits about any of the other guys and is gung-ho about finding his brother, Merle, but suddenly when Glenn gets kidnapped, he's all about helping Rick and T-Dog save him???
Did you miss how he questioned Rick on this point? Plus, it seems Daryl is an asshole by nature, but probably not above either having some human tendency towards wanting human connections or just doesn't have his bitch-switch permanently set in the on position. On some level, you have to wonder if he acknowledges the fact that these people are sticking their necks out for him and his brother, regardless of what role they may have played in Merle's current predicament. Again, there are those wacky human tendencies towards messy thought processes and feelings on matters.


Then once they DO "save" Glenn from the orderlies, Daryl suddenly seems to forget all about Merle and is content with leaving the city, even though Merle was the sole reason he went there? It's not until they discover the van is missing that he seems to have any care of Merle.
I disagree and am not sure from where you're arriving at such conclusions. They searched for Daryl's brother, couldn't find him, survived a few crazy run-ins, got some of the firearms they wanted...it seems to me that there was a need to take stock of the situation. It does not bother me that Daryl was not wholly consumed by the need to run about the city blindly searching for his brother, especially when they were somewhat weighed down toting extra supplies (firearms and extra ammo). Plus, it makes sense from a character development angle, to me. He knows his brother is an ass to some extent, knows he's dangerous and on some level may have been sticking with him out of family loyalty and common cause, seeing Rick stick his neck out for Glenn may have been reassuring to him and he may just be somewhat more open to not burning all his bridges unlike his brother. Sure he wants to find, Merle, but there are practical limits to what he had just gone through and what he immediately would have had the energy or ability to do given the current circumstances.


And another thing! Andrea's sister just STANDS there for the first few seconds she sees a zombie and completely allows it to bite her! WTF?!
Some people--I would imagine a shitload --might freeze up when confronted by their own mortality. i don't see it as much of an issue.


There were a couple more things that irked me, but I'll allow you guys to retort/attack those three things.

http://blogs.phillynews.com/inquirer/zozone/bigkahuna.jpg:)

[MikePizzoff]

I disagree and am not sure from where you're arriving at such conclusions. They searched for Daryl's brother, couldn't find him, survived a few crazy run-ins, got some of the firearms they wanted...it seems to me that there was a need to take stock of the situation. It does not bother me that Daryl was not wholly consumed by the need to run about the city blindly searching for his brother, especially when they were somewhat weighed down toting extra supplies (firearms and extra ammo). Plus, it makes sense from a character development angle, to me. He knows his brother is an ass to some extent, knows he's dangerous and on some level may have been sticking with him out of family loyalty and common cause, seeing Rick stick his neck out for Glenn may have been reassuring to him and he may just be somewhat more open to not burning all his bridges unlike his brother. Sure he wants to find, Merle, but there are practical limits to what he had just gone through and what he immediately would have had the energy or ability to do given the current circumstances.


I get what you're saying about character development. However, I don't think acquiring the weapons would have changed his mind; before they had the weapons wasn't the plan, according to Rick, to grab the weapons followed by some searching of the area for Merle? I understand that Glenn being taken changed the plans, but why when they got him back didn't Daryl want to continue the search for Merle? I was expecting him to be like "Okay, I helped you get Glenn back now you help me get my brother back." I don't think it was sheer family loyalty that set him to seek out Merle - it seemed like genuine brotherly love/friendship that he had lost and he was heartbroken/outraged.

Yes, seeing what Rick would do to save Glenn definitely made Daryl see things in a different light, but I just thought it was a bit unrealistic that he would completely give up the current search for his brother like that.

[AcesandEights]

I get what you're saying about character development. However, I don't think acquiring the weapons would have changed his mind; before they had the weapons wasn't the plan, according to Rick, to grab the weapons followed by some searching of the area for Merle? I understand that Glenn being taken changed the plans, but why when they got him back didn't Daryl want to continue the search for Merle? I was expecting him to be like "Okay, I helped you get Glenn back now you help me get my brother back." I don't think it was sheer family loyalty that set him to seek out Merle - it seemed like genuine brotherly love/friendship that he had lost and he was heartbroken/outraged.

I get what you're saying, but I'm approaching it from the fact that they must have been physically and factually overwhelmed to an extent. They had spent all day
1) traveling to the city,
2) evading zeds,
3) Getting pumped for conflict (has very tiring after effects)
4) 'Rescued' Glenn
5) Made the deal for the guns

On top of all of this, they actually hit a big dead end on Merle's fate. To follow up and try and find him is not an easy task at this point, sure they ave a probable search radius, but that is a maybe and happens to be an area with lots of zombies covering it. So I chalked it up to them being somewhat overwhelmed by not only everything that had happened to them that day, but also 'Where do we go from here?' in their search.

All that said, if they had not hit a big 'oh shit' with the van being gone, I am sure Daryl would have had a lot to say about what should be done to find Merle once the excess ammo and guns were stowed, even if they did decide to call their 'search and rescue' off for the day at that point.

Does that angle make sense? I know there are other ways to look at, but that seemed pretty natural to me.

[DEAD BEAT]

Looks like its true we won't get the 2nd season until Oct 11. One of the mid level characters was interviewed on one of the podcasts and he said AMC didn't want him back until May to start shooting again. Unless this guy gets separated from the group before the end of ep6, I'm taking that as a good indicator for a late next year premiere. Lincoln's also referred to early summer as "back to work"

wut! com' on dude seriously....im gonna lose wood by then! :(

[MikePizzoff]

Alright, I didn't think of looking at it from that angle. And you know what? You've persuaded me to change my opinion on that aspect.

Perhaps you'll be able to iron out future problems I may have... although, I'm hoping there won't be any more; I get the feeling next week's episode will make up for this one, for me.

[DEAD BEAT]

Alright, I didn't think of looking at it from that angle. And you know what? You've persuaded me to change my opinion on that aspect.

Perhaps you'll be able to iron out future problems I may have... although, I'm hoping there won't be any more; I get the feeling next week's episode will make up for this one, for me.

talkin' bout my boner?

Oh my bad, your answering the dude before me! ;)

[MoonSylver]

wut! com' on dude seriously....im gonna lose wood by then! :(

I doubt it. This is YOU we're talking about, after all.

http://media.weirdworm.com/img/life/6-weird-monuments-from-around-the-world/the-chinese-penis02.jpg

:lol:

[Trancelikestate]

What the hell kinda show has 6 episodes a season?:duh:

[Doc]

Despite, nitpickiness I like how everyone here has actual plotholes, and flaws to call out in the series so far. :) Unlike other forums where I really see is "Boo this series sucks! The writing is terrible, the characters are boring, and there are no zombies! Yadda, yadda, yadda" without giving examples of said bad writing, and plotholes. :rolleyes:

[Wyldwraith]

Tend to agree with Aces at least partially on this one,
I mean for awhile there the trail was still warm. Followed Merle's blood trail into the adjoining building (And WHY THE FUCK didn't we even KNOW THIS BUILDING EXISTED back in Ep. 2?), found where Merle cauterized his stump, and located probable zombie kills of Merle's. Then...nothing. There was nothing left to follow once they got to the "Why the fuck did he go outside through the window he busted out?" point. At that point, you tell me, how do you even PICK A DIRECTION to search in? This isn't the woods, and they aren't Native American scouts. Not much trail on asphalt unless your a tire being burned in a peel-out.

Totally agree that in the wake of the clusterfuck w/ the gangbangers (they took a hostage, threatened to throw said hostage off the roof unless they got their way, and were seemingly willing to engage in a horribly bloody gun-battle/melee with shotgun-wielding adversaries (Which the "Vatos" would've have lost, by their leader's own indirect admission. Remember him saying they welded all the other entrance/exits shut? That doorway they were standing in was THE ONLY entrance/exit.) All Rick and Co. had to do was lay down some of that sweet sweet buckshot as they withdrew, and take up positions covering the door. When the zombies start arriving due to the noise, haul ass up on to the rooftop access T-Dog used and go roof to roof. Let the 'bangers deal with the zombies.)...these are NOT moral people.

Hitler pulled strings to get his brother/half-brother set up in his own business. That doesn't make him a good guy. Taking care of a bunch of old people doesn't make that group of Latino Gangbangers anything More or LESS THAN gangbangers.

What really tied it for me though was G's willingness to let them leave the initial meeting with the teenager they were keeping prisoner. You can't get around the fact the man wrote off the well-being of his guy in the effort to get the guns. Ends don't justify means, ya know?

Whoever mentioned Daryl's Xbow bolts being contaminated hit the nail on the head. If you go back and watch it, you'll see that he was re-using the 4-5 bolts he could put in the holder on the crossbow, instead of reaching for his other bolts. He shot 4 zombies before the scene in the alley where he shot the gangbanger in the ass. That dude has a 4-in-5 chance that a bolt sticky with zombie gore ended up ripping into his buttock. Nice catch.

I'd been thinking about that ever since I saw Daryl shoot the zombie that was eating his deer, and the way he mentioned "think we can just cut around the chewed on part?"...It was symptomatic of his disregard for what bolt he shoots into what target. He's obviously not keeping track of "tainted" versus "clean" bolts, since he puts them all back on the bolt-guard on the Xbow.

Something occurred to me after thinking back on Ep. 1, where the group just barely caught a brief transmission from Rick in the squad car. It was broad daylight when Rick drove past and out of range of their radio, and it was BRIGHT broad daylight when he was approaching the horse and starting to ride off on it. It was STILL pretty bright out when he reached the camera shot of the Interstate choked with outbound cars, and STILL bright out when he ends up in the tank and then makes his run for it to Glenn. You can really tell how bright it is when they're up on the roof when Merle makes his power play.

Anyways, my point is, it was towards Noon when he drove out of radio contact, and going by the light couldn't have been more than 3 hours before he ended up in the tank, and then up on the roof. It's STILL good and light out when the survivors and Rick pull into the camp.

All this taken into account, as well as the department store being very near the city limit, it might've been as little as 60-75 minutes by truck to where they parked, and another 15 to walk to the department store. IF that's the case, the walk/run back to the camp (especially if they traveled as the crow flies due to being on foot) might have taken only 3x as long for Rick/Glenn/Daryl and T-Dog to hoof it back to camp. So many like 4 hours.

They left the city while it was still light out, but starting to dim towards sunset. My gut says 4:50pm-5:20pm as the time they left Atlanta. It was full dark, in the southern part of Georgia. We know its LATE autumn but CANT be winter yet, because it doesn't start being dark around 6-6:30pm here until late November/Early December. Ed was cold enough to put that log on the fire, but the whole group wasn't sitting there shivering with their teeth chattering, DESPITE the alcohol they were drinking. So probably November.

So, it was full dark and everyone was wound down and all relaxed and shooting the breeze about Dale's watch. That would put it at LEAST at 8:30pm, and probably later because the kids were wound down. That would give Rick and Co. Something like four hours and change to make the trip. At least. It could've been MUCH later by the time of the zombie attack. If it was even 10pm, it wouldn't be fun, but 4 healthy young men could walk/jog/run that return trip without HUGE difficulty. Being encumbered like they were woulda made it HURT, but it's a plausible timeline with an undisclosed amount of "flex time" favoring Rick and the others return to camp.

What do you guys think?

[rongravy]

Some people--I would imagine a shitload --might freeze up when confronted by their own mortality. i don't see it as much of an issue.


I dunno, I watched a show tonight about a bunch of ways of dying, and I coulda/woulda found a way to zigzag my way around getting zapped, so to speak. Except the bullet from a mile away. Dayumn, nearly died a million times, have I...
As far as the episode, I liked it, if only for the wild ass melee at the end. I had just told my kid, "Heyyyyy, not alot of decomposing meat action tonight......"
This was when my wife walked into the room, in the last 5 fucking minutes, saying, "What, you guys watched the new episode without me?"
Then, somehow, I lost it.
She was mad, because she saw the meat of the episode at the ass end...
I'm still not sure how the redneck escaped the roof, but I guess I will find out. His brother being a self preserving douchenozzle? He did use his own brother's hand, in a lie, to convince a Latino dood he was muy serioso, lol.
Easily explained. The same fucked up genes that made his brother made him forget his original mission. Self preservation, I said. If we are going to go there with the hillbilly references from people that don't really know anything about how life really is, then... yeah.
I personally think that when the shit goes down, we will forget color and focus on getting rid of the immediate threat at hand... then get back to hating each other for whatever stoopid reason we hate each other for. Racial hatred is as retarded here as people getting it on under this kind of duress. Know what I mean?
the only reason why I hate when that happens...
And I swear, that guy who got an arrow in the butt, is he the first guy any movie/TV show calls when they need a bald, gangbanging Latino who needs to be re-educated? Or does his agent jump on that shit?
I keep trying and trying...
Get that GED, Holmes...

[ProfessorChaos]

What do you guys think?

i think you and a few others are nit-picking this poor series waay too much. it's like the deal with the airport and mall from the original dawn only being a few miles apart. you've gotta draw the line somewhere...taking the height of the sun, seasons of the year, geographical location, etc into such extreme consideration must be such a burden....why can't some of you guys just relax and enjoy the show?

i seriously picture some members of this board sitting back with their dvr remotes, a pen, and a notebook just looking for the tiniest detail to rip to shreds for no other reason than they've got to much time on their hands or a strong sense of self-worth from finding the most irrelevant things to prattle on about.

this is not entirely directed at you, but this over-examination of things like what you did above are what i'm talking about....

[rongravy]

fuck, i posted some serious shit only to lose it. damn it all to hell.

[Mr. Clean]

Well i will say the dude who got shot int he ass has probably been infected. I am sure the brother who is the archer is not on top of cleaning and sanitizing his equipment enough and if i had written this storyline I would have played that angle to throw some of the groups safety off.

I didn't think of that. Pretty crazy twist. His arrows had to be pretty nasty.

Also, I wonder why they didn't show the Radio that he went back for in this episode.

[Skold]

i think you and a few others are nit-picking this poor series waay too much. it's like the deal with the airport and mall from the original dawn only being a few miles apart. you've gotta draw the line somewhere...taking the height of the sun, seasons of the year, geographical location, etc into such extreme consideration must be such a burden....why can't some of you guys just relax and enjoy the show?

Indeed!

It doens't take that long to get from Philly to Harrisburg! How was the nurse zombie inside when they locked up the mall and killed them all but outside again?

My favortie part of GAR movies was that we could fill in the gaps. They stopped a few times! Nurse zombie walked outside for some unknown reason!

If anyone here was this critical of Dawn, it would be ridiculous.

Where the hell did they get all those pies?!?

:D

[ProfessorChaos]

dude, trust me, i've read on this site posts about how the pies should've been spoiled by that far into the outbreak....can't recall if it was in jest or serious....

[MikePizzoff]

dude, trust me, i've read on this site posts about how the pies should've been spoiled by that far into the outbreak.

Well, it's true...
:p

[babomb]

i think you and a few others are nit-picking this poor series waay too much. it's like the deal with the airport and mall from the original dawn only being a few miles apart. you've gotta draw the line somewhere...taking the height of the sun, seasons of the year, geographical location, etc into such extreme consideration must be such a burden....why can't some of you guys just relax and enjoy the show?

i seriously picture some members of this board sitting back with their dvr remotes, a pen, and a notebook just looking for the tiniest detail to rip to shreds for no other reason than they've got to much time on their hands or a strong sense of self-worth from finding the most irrelevant things to prattle on about.

this is not entirely directed at you, but this over-examination of things like what you did above are what i'm talking about....
Exactly!!!
No offense to anyone who does this, but it does seem to take some of the joy out of it.
I like to talk about all this stuff, I like to theorize, but there's a certain suspension of disbeleif that's required to enjoy any work of fiction that includes elements that will never be anything more than fiction.
I mean, if some of the small details are so unacceptably unrealistic, how do you get past the premise of the dead walking?

[thxleo]

What the hell kinda show has 6 episodes a season?:duh:

Most networks only green light a pilot and then based on that they go ahead and order more episodes. AMC was so impressed with the material and the cast, and trusted the production team of Darabont and Gale Ann Hurd so much that they green lit 6 episodes. I'd say we were lucky to have that many episodes to begin with.

---------- Post added at 09:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------


i think you and a few others are nit-picking this poor series waay too much. it's like the deal with the airport and mall from the original dawn only being a few miles apart. you've gotta draw the line somewhere...taking the height of the sun, seasons of the year, geographical location, etc into such extreme consideration must be such a burden....why can't some of you guys just relax and enjoy the show?

i seriously picture some members of this board sitting back with their dvr remotes, a pen, and a notebook just looking for the tiniest detail to rip to shreds for no other reason than they've got to much time on their hands or a strong sense of self-worth from finding the most irrelevant things to prattle on about.

this is not entirely directed at you, but this over-examination of things like what you did above are what i'm talking about....

I could not agree more, Professor. These long winded essays that some members pound out on here are ridiculous. I've stopped reading them because they are so silly. What's wrong with keeping it short and succinct? And what about simply watching the show and having fun with it??????

---------- Post added at 09:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:08 AM ----------


Exactly!!!
No offense to anyone who does this, but it does seem to take some of the joy out of it.
I like to talk about all this stuff, I like to theorize, but there's a certain suspension of disbeleif that's required to enjoy any work of fiction that includes elements that will never be anything more than fiction.
I mean, if some of the small details are so unacceptably unrealistic, how do you get past the premise of the dead walking?

100% agreement!

[Trin]

I attribute Daryl pursuing the Vatos for two reasons. Reason 1. As others have pointed out, Merle was a dead end at that point. For all we know the Vatos have him. And as Daryl said, "No one kills Merle but Merle." So I think Daryl was satisfied that Merle was gonna be okay for the time being. Reason 2. The Vatos totally jacked Daryl in the alley and he was not likely to let that slide. I can totally see him putting his brother on the back burner to go pound some Vato behind.

I pointed out a while back that the crossbow bolt would end up killing the Vato dude. He will either succumb to zombie infection or garden variety infection. Puncture wounds through clothing tend to cause infection worse than other kinds of wounds due to the object pushing bits of filthy clothing and matter into the wound. He's a goner. Unless they have some cache of antibiotics around, which I think is unlikely, and he didn't pick up zombie goo.

@Wyld - I'm not really sure what you're getting at with the analysis of the time and distance and stuff. Are you pointing out a continuity error or a plot hole or what? I got irritated at the "jogging" back to camp (one of my initial gripes several pages back) because it indicates that the camp was not very far from Atlanta. Thinking about the surrounding areas of a major city like that I'd expect the nearest safe rural spot to be 15-20 miles out. You gotta figure those guys were 3-4 miles just off a main road. Then the distance to town. No way those guys hoofed it that distance at that pace weighted down like that. My point being that without the car/truck they were well and truly screwed.

Did they ever explain how Glen and the others traveled back and forth to the department store? Was it all walking? We know they drove the car/truck back after the escape scene, but how were they typically getting there? I guess I'd be surprised if they walked all the way in and out each time.

Some of the nit-picking stems from the desire to think through "what would you do" scenarios. That's the fun part of these kinds of shows for some of us. That leads to lots of what-if scenarios that bring into question the surroundings and environment and how things work. How can I know if my decision to hole-up on the department store roof overnight (instead of a daring escape) would work without breaking down the zombie behavior and surroundings, the strength of the doors, the approaching stormfront, etc. That's just an example of course, but it speaks to the tendency to nit-pick. That's the fun for some.

Suspension of disbelief is obviously a poorly understood fiction mechanic by some on this board as it is too often used to slam posters who question ANYTHING. Suspension of disbelief is not a blank check to justify any crazy diversion from the laws of physics that the writers decide to film. We allow suspension of disbelief to dictate that zombies exist. That's all. Everything else is expected to obey the known universe.

[AcesandEights]

I can totally see him putting his brother on the back burner to go pound some Vato behind.
:confused:

Can we confirm whether Daryl actually did time, or are we just inferring at this point :p

[Legion2213]

Most networks only green light a pilot and then based on that they go ahead and order more episodes. AMC was so impressed with the material and the cast, and trusted the production team of Darabont and Gale Ann Hurd so much that they green lit 6 episodes. I'd say we were lucky to have that many episodes to begin with.

Absolutely, the most that new series usually get is a 90 minute pilot, even "The Lost Room" only got 3 episodes (it's crime that it was never continued with a proper series, but that is for another thread)

[DEAD BEAT]

I doubt it. This is YOU we're talking about, after all.

http://media.weirdworm.com/img/life/6-weird-monuments-from-around-the-world/the-chinese-penis02.jpg

:lol:

hey! did you get that pic from my exgirlfriend! lol

lol that sucker should be on Easter Island! lmao

[Trancelikestate]

Ok, i guess i didn't know shows worked that way. So should we expect season 2 to be the average number? 12 is it?

I did like this episode. As soon as Amy stood up and said "i have to go to the bathroom", i yelled she's dead! And after it happened my girl was like oh, you were right.

I think merle may have lead that army of walkers up there in the van, but they certainly weren't loaded on the van. the cargo area had access to the cab. I am definatley liking daryl more and more.

That vato who got shot in the ass annoys me for some reason. maybe its "Training Day".

[MoonSylver]

hey! did you get that pic from my exgirlfriend! lol

lol that sucker should be on Easter Island! lmao

I figured you were humping the ground & it went through the earth & popped up in China. ;) :lol:

[kidgloves]

Ok. I've watched this episode again and I'm getting something different each time. If you watch it with the mindset of Rick and co being the bad guys when it gets to the Vatos part it makes much more sense. Quite moving actually with the old people part. I just wish they'd executed it better. It's very jolting when grandma appears. Daryl Dixon continues to rock. Merle light.
And Jim. Andrew Rothenberg is doing a great job. My god what a tragic character and yes I've read the comic.

[babomb]

I'd expect the nearest safe rural spot to be 15-20 miles out.
That's pretty damn far! It's definitely up to the individual/s sense of safety, but it also depends on a few other things. Like the specific area, the actual topology of the land and how difficult it is to get to the safe zone, is there any natural defense against intruders, etc...
I'd personally think that 5 miles from the nearest populated area would be sufficient if the terrain lends itself. Obviously 5 miles out on straight desert wouldn't be wise. But if there's alot of dense woods, possibly some elevation difference, it should be OK.
15-20 miles out would present some logistics challenges when it comes to resource acquisition or god forbid, rescue of group members. The fact that gas isn't in great supply makes using that truck for supply runs on 30-40 mile round trip distances plain ridiculous.
I'm inclined to think that they're around 5 miles out give or take. Because they have that rule about keeping fires very low so they aren't seen from a distance, which would be unnecessary if they were 15-20 miles out. The signal from those old 70's radios can't possibly be 15-20 miles, and they just barely were able to hear Rick when he entered the city. I'm thinking 5 miles again on the max distance of CB radios from the 70's with no signal boost.
Of course, this is pure speculation with not enough information, based on my own observations of my local terrain and experience hiking and signal distance on radio reception.


Some of the nit-picking stems from the desire to think through "what would you do" scenarios. That's the fun part of these kinds of shows for some of us. That leads to lots of what-if scenarios that bring into question the surroundings and environment and how things work.
I get that, and I do agree. To an extent. I don't think the spoiled pies in Dawn helps in any what-if scenario though.;)
What seems odd to me is those posts that start out "I loved the latest episode, BUT" and proceed to write an essay about a bunch of small details that don't have much bearing. Or nit picking things that there's no information about.
I'd hate to see the good "what-if" discussions stop! It just sucks that sometimes you have to read a whole page of someones nit-pick dislikes of details of no value to get to a 2 sentence area that actually has merit.

[Yojimbo]

In light of the complaints about the one dimensional aspects of the characters as portrayed in VATOS and the other assorted small details that have bothered many of the posters, I now proclaim GAR as relevant and his standing redeemed as the king of all things ghoul.

I might be kidding, or maybe not. Either way, it is all a matter of perception. I enjoyed the episode, plot holes and sterotypical characters notwithstanding, but it is exactly these kind of weak points of a film that many of my fellow posters utilize to condemn George A. Romero's recent offerings and judge him as irrelevant.

[babomb]

Back to the development of the characters.
The younger Dixon seems to be poised as either a long standing survivor or a sudden victim to jolt the viewer.
Although I like Glenn, his vulnerability to the group is sort of being brought out now.
If it wasn't already apparent, Shane's character has a military background and is becoming seemingly essential to the survival of the group.
Which probly means-It's been building all along toward his death as the season finale. which sucks because him and Rick do operate well together having been partners and that's not something easily developed with a person. When he's gone Rick will have to stop bein the cowboy.

[MinionZombie]

Okay my fellow Brits - chime in now that we've seen it.

I'll pimp my full thoughts soon, but generally it was a bit of a mixed bag for me (the titular Vatos, really being the bit I didn't particularly like for example) - but I still rather enjoyed it and the ending kicked mucho arse.

Yeah, the younger Dixon seems to be getting set up as a possible long-stander, I was pleased that they improved his character in episode four - i.e. not just a total redneck dick, he actually has some use in that when he's not being a redneck knob'ed he's actually good at sweeping through a building and essentially hunting zombies.

Good to see some more 'stretched lip' zombies too ... oh and Greg Nicotero as a key zombie. :cool:

[SymphonicX]

Okay my fellow Brits - chime in now that we've seen it.

I'll pimp my full thoughts soon, but generally it was a bit of a mixed bag for me (the titular Vatos, really being the bit I didn't particularly like for example) - but I still rather enjoyed it and the ending kicked mucho arse.

Yeah, the younger Dixon seems to be getting set up as a possible long-stander, I was pleased that they improved his character in episode four - i.e. not just a total redneck dick, he actually has some use in that when he's not being a redneck knob'ed he's actually good at sweeping through a building and essentially hunting zombies.

Good to see some more 'stretched lip' zombies too ... oh and Greg Nicotero as a key zombie. :cool:

I missed Greg there, where was he??

Ep4 - last nights one yeah? I loved it. Fantastic.
I've been a bit unimpressed so far, its been good but a bit ho hum between not very interesting moments and a few genuinely intense, edge of your seat, stuff.

Last night however was like episode 2 on crack - fantastic, had a bunch of rollercoaster moments from social issues to very gory ones. I liked the mexican gang thing, it was a bit of a push but I think it worked well - Young Dixon, whatever he's shaping up to be, is a nice addition to the series, a loose cannon - I think he'll be the thing to pull back Merls from slaughtering everyone, one handed of course.

Michael Rooker was excellent in ep2 and it was nice to see good ol' Henry in the series, he plays a great redneck, and is actually an allround fantastic actor - very under rated.
("yeah....I killed my momma...")

But back to ep4, the end sequence was awesome and the whole ep really struck a great balance in the four parts between character, action, gore, suspense, horror, etc.
ep5 and 6 need to be absolutely epic though - without a doubt.

Not sure how many eps for this series? Was 10 for The Pacific wasn't it? What about this, an equally hyped, big budget TV series? If there's only 6, then that's quite disappointing.

[MinionZombie]

Symph - it was six episodes from the very beginning, which makes sense really as the first trade paperback story arc is six issues of the comic book.

There was indeed a lot of attention and hype surrounding it, but it was also quite the gamble - we've never had a zombie tv series before, so it's unfair to compare it to the mega-budget The Pacific, which was preceded by the also mega-budget smash hit that was Band of Brothers (both of which had titanic names attached to them - Spielberg and Hanks). Darabont and Hurd aren't nobodies by any stretch of the imagination, but Hanks and Spielberg have them outgunned in terms of clout, I would say.

Fortunately it has become a hit show, but its success was by no means certain.

Season 2 will be 13 episodes however. :) I wonder, being 13 episodes long, if it'll incorporate Volumes 2 and 3 of the trade paperbacks (two story arcs) ... that'd be cool to see.

...

Anyway, here's my thoughts on episode four:
http://deadshed.blogspot.com/2010/11/walking-dead-episode-four-vatos.html


Straight out of the gate, episode four was a mixed bag for me - the opening scene was troublesome. The purpose of the scene was good, but the dialogue used to get there didn't work for me, it felt forced and convoluted and as if we'd joined a conversation half-way-done (in that perhaps we could have used some more time with Amy and Andrea to get to know them a bit better).

Later in the episode we have the titular gang, and again it didn't play particularly well for me. It didn't feel entirely necessary, and it felt undercooked. There was some interest provided by it, but the gang weren't awfully compelling and their segment of the episode generally seemed a bit weak.

Fortunately, being a mixed bag, there was plenty of good stuff too that allowed me to still enjoy the episode. While there isn't a huge amount of high pressure tension on offer with The Walking Dead (unlike other TV big hitters like 24 or Lost) - so far at least - we finally get some time with the character of Jim, in an impressive couple of scenes that developed the already impressive counterpart scenes from the graphic novel - indeed, this episode was written by franchise originator Robert Kirkman.

A nice touch was Glenn's intelligent approach to leading the gang through Atlanta - Glenn has been consistently entertaining throughout the season, and is one of my favourite characters. Furthermore it was good to see Daryl Dixon fleshed out a bit more as in previous episodes he was mostly the 'unpleasant redneck', but in this episode they were able to set him up as a useful member of the team - someone who is skilled at zombie hunting (when he's not having an impassioned wig-out, that is).

So after the first half which was a mixed bag, the second half - particularly the fourth act of the episode - really brought things up to standard. It illustrated exactly how enough shamblers can catch you off guard and provide a real threat - when you're dealing with one, all the others will continue to steadily advance, and you can easily find yourself overwhelmed and distracted.

This sequence provided some real treats for the gore hounds, and as I'd figured, some of the nameless potential cannon fodder lived up to their purpose and took it on the chin so-to-speak.

However, it wasn't just the background fodder who got it in the neck ... suffice to say, Laurie Holden got to act her arse off in a wonderfully performed moment that, for me, stole the entire show - but another nice character moment was provided by Dale talking at the campfire about his watch. DeMunn's intelligent and amiable performance continues to capture exactly who his comic book counterpart is.

So all-in-all it turned out to be a good episode, despite the wobbles of the first half, and it'll be interesting to see where they go with the two remaining episodes of this season - by the looks of the 'next time on' teaser they will be straying from the source material once again with a new side plot. As a reader of the graphic novels (I've done the first four trade paperback volumes so far) it's nice to not just have a direct translation, but at the same time I haven't fully made up my mind yet about how much they're working outside of the established box, but so far it's working quite well - it's not been perfect, but it's been good.

[Tricky]

I really enjoyed this episode too, I havent had any real gripes about the series at all up to this point, and a lot of the gripes I have read on here are from people who have read the comics, which I havent, so they arent issues for me because its all new unexplored territory. I'll definitely be getting the DVD box set when it comes out!
I dont know if this is how its going to play out, but my thoughts are that because Ricks van went missing, I'm under the impression that the vengeful Merle lured a load of walkers into the back of it, then released them in the vicinity of the survivors camp, but I could be wrong! Any others think that?

[kidgloves]

^^^^^^^
I've seen that theory banded about on the Internet.
Bit ridiculous when you think about it.
Merle has ONE hand. Is probably still in some serious pain. Besides, the van had no separator between the cabin and the back.

Tricky.
My mate is convinced that was a chieftain tank in the 1st episode. Do you know what tank it was?

[Tricky]

^^^^^^^
I've seen that theory banded about on the Internet.
Bit ridiculous when you think about it.
Merle has ONE hand. Is probably still in some serious pain. Besides, the van had no separator between the cabin and the back.



This is true, although in TV land it could still be a possibility!

This is a Chieftain and it does look very similar to the one in the show, but its a British main battle tank that has been out of service for over two decades so quite why it would be at a US military blockade is anyones guess! I would have expected an Abrams there!
http://www.tankzone.co.uk/images/photo_gallery/tankdrive/Chieftain_400.jpg

[mpokera]

as I stated I enjoyed the episode a great deal but in all the nitpicking I have seen on here there seem to be a few basic problems no one is mentioned. Firstly and most glaring I think is that the 'Vatos" plan would never have worked even this long. You just can not fortify a building in a zombie ruled city and have any long term survivability at all. Why havent the acquired a moat of, I don't know, a few MILLION zombies around their building by now? Its the main problem of a zombie apocalypse, you might be able to keep them out (for a time) but you would just be surrounded and unable to resupply at all.
Secondly they feel so secure right outside the city they dont even post gaurds at night? Hard to imagine, and pretty much got what was coming to them for that omission.

[Andy]

I have to admit, when they found the gang of survivors in the holed up in the city, i did jump up off my sofa shouting 'THAT DOSNT HAPPEN IN THE COMIC!'

At first, i thought they were seriously jumping the gun and introducing woodbury very early on.. but i was pleasently suprised at being proved wrong and the twist they took with that. The attack on the camp was fantastic, i have to agree all those zombies finding their way to the camp just as merl was mega-pissed off and ricks van went missing, considering the lack of zombie activity before (they were suprised to see one zombie up there last episode) was very coincidental and i did think straight away that merl must have something to do with it, if not rounding them up and putting them in the back of the van, maybe driving through atlanta making loads of noise then driving back to the camp very slowly so that they could follow? but again it would be really hard to do that without being noticed by someone, I dunno but i cant wait to find out.

This series has been one of the best things ive seen on TV in a long time.

[kidgloves]

This is a Chieftain and it does look very similar to the one in the show, but its a British main battle tank that has been out of service for over two decades so quite why it would be at a US military blockade is anyones guess! I would have expected an Abrams there!
http://www.tankzone.co.uk/images/photo_gallery/tankdrive/Chieftain_400.jpg

When I showed this guy the comicon trailer to get him onboard with the show the 1st thing he said was "what the hell is a chieftain doing in that blockade. It's one of ours" He's an ex-military guy and has pics of him sat on a cheftain when he was in the forces. He still insists it's a chieftain and says he could see why they used it to look like an Abrams. Something about the turret shape being unique. I was just curious. Maybe a tank collector rents them to the movie business or something. This guy loves the show btw and so does his missus. Just shows the universal appeal.

[MinionZombie]

Merle is gonna have to come back into it in the next two episodes somehow, there's no way that he's not gonna show up again, I'd say.

And if anyone was wondering which zombie was Greg Nicotero, he was ... the zombie that bites Amy.

[bassman]

Merle is gonna have to come back into it in the next two episodes somehow, there's no way that he's not gonna show up again, I'd say.

I wouldn't be so sure....

[Tricky]

Yeah looking at it closely its definitely a Chieftain, I'm suprised they used it in TWD when its filmed in the US and there must be an abundance of Abrams tanks available for use in filming!
Maybe its the same one that was used in the film "Reign of fire" that turns up with a load of americans too
http://imcdb.org/images/108/232.jpg

[rongravy]

is it just me or does the vatos' leader remind anyone of a hispanic denzel washington?

[MinionZombie]

I wouldn't be so sure....

Hmmm ... IMDb has him listed as appearing in 5 episodes. :shifty:

I know it's not always the most reliable thing, but for this sort of information it's usually pretty reliable. Then again he doesn't technically appear in episode four, so it's already wrong, unless they're counting "previously on" footage ... ... plus his hand makes an appearance. :lol:

I duno, I just think it would be really weird for them not to resolve the whole 'where is Merle?' subplot this season to be honest, like for nothing to be said about him in the remaining two episodes. He'll have to make a return somehow.

The theory regarding him taking vengence upon the camp is an interesting one, but as has also been said, not without it's logistical and plot-hole problems.

*intrigue mode on* :rockbrow:

[bassman]

Darabont has stated in a recent issue of EW that he won't be back until season two. Sorry to spoil it, but there it is.

And you're trusting IMDB?!? Dude....seriously? :lol:

[DjfunkmasterG]

Ok. I've watched this episode again and I'm getting something different each time. If you watch it with the mindset of Rick and co being the bad guys when it gets to the Vatos part it makes much more sense. Quite moving actually with the old people part. I just wish they'd executed it better. It's very jolting when grandma appears. Daryl Dixon continues to rock. Merle light.
And Jim. Andrew Rothenberg is doing a great job. My god what a tragic character and yes I've read the comic.

I recently just did a 4 hour marathon of watching all four episodes and I am liking Episode #4 a little more than I did at first and it was because of Jim's story about his family and how he got away and the guilt he has been carrying because of it. Norman Reedus (Daryl) continues to rock the set, He and Glenn have been my favorite characters since Lennie James in Episode #1.

When you watch the episodes in succession it takes the blow out of the less than stellar episodes... #2 suddenly gets better as does #4. #1 and #3 are still at the top of my list as the best, but I found much more respect for Episode #4 on a second viewing.

[mista_mo]

The tank was an m-60 patton with prosthetics on it to make it look like an Abrams. The Patton was one of the last tanks to have an escape hatch on the bottom of the hull.

[MinionZombie]

Darabont has stated in a recent issue of EW that he won't be back until season two. Sorry to spoil it, but there it is.

And you're trusting IMDB?!? Dude....seriously? :lol:

Hadn't read the EW thing as apparently it was choc-a-block with spoilers, particularly for us Brits.

[Tricky]

I'm still convinced its a Chieftain with a slightly altered turret actually!
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YuHJFANHapY/TNWC_XX_x0I/AAAAAAAAAeY/9MVBZzKVccw/s800/Tank1.jpg
http://www.turretsandtracks.co.uk/Storage/Pics/126/2-1.jpg

As opposed to the Patton seen here, but I'm just being a geek :p

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3163/2704905076_10b3e5368f.jpg

[kidgloves]

The tank they used didn't have a hatch underneath. It's something I looked for on my 2nd watch through and when Rick crawls under the tank you can't see a hatch anywhere so if people are assuming it's a Patton cause of the hatch they are wide of the mark.

[Wyldwraith]

As to comments about "long-winded over-analyzing",
You mentioned you've stopped reading such posts, so which is worse, enjoying actually thinking through the mechanics of how the elements of a storyline fit together, or writing a post complaining about someone doing that, when by your own admission you don't read such posts?

And no, analyzing the show takes no enjoyment out of it. I do not need to blindly nod along and accept each detail the TV is feeding me in order to enjoy a TV show. Hashing and re-hashing the details of zombie material and what we all variously think of those details is what we do here, isn't it?

I mean, if we're going to complain I've got a complaint. I could not possibly care less which second camera unit operator does what in a different project years later. To me, THAT is over-analyzing the logistics of the show's production, rather than the show itself. How is one detail-oriented examination better or worse than the other?

Moving on...

I sincerely hope that they bring the 6-episode run to at least a good stopping place. Of course no final resolution of anything is feasible (or even desirable) in 2 episodes, but they don't need to thrust the characters into a life-or-death-at-any-moment situation, then end it on us for 11 months. That sort of cliffhanger has been done so much to death that it doesn't spawn a great hunger to see what happens, it just causes irritation (at least for me)...

I'd love to see them struggling to find somewhere safe to settle in, and just have it naturally drift off into next season's first episode.

[Gryphon]

I sincerely hope that they bring the 6-episode run to at least a good stopping place. Of course no final resolution of anything is feasible (or even desirable) in 2 episodes, but they don't need to thrust the characters into a life-or-death-at-any-moment situation, then end it on us for 11 months. That sort of cliffhanger has been done so much to death that it doesn't spawn a great hunger to see what happens, it just causes irritation (at least for me)...

I'd love to see them struggling to find somewhere safe to settle in, and just have it naturally drift off into next season's first episode.

Agreed. Cliffhangers do little more than irritate, generally. They're done to death. The show is great as it is; it doesn't need a cliffhanger to generate re-interest.