Antikythera Mechanism

[Neil]

So a computer using 14-15th century comparible knowlwedge built in 100BC Greece?

What if the machine had not been lost at see? Imagine if the Romans had got their hands on it and built upon its premise?

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[AcesandEights]

So a computer using 14-15th century comparable knowledge built in 100BC Greece?

Yeah, the Antikythera mechanism is mind boggling. The implications/insights into how well studied and attuned to their world segments of the ancient populace were is always amazing, but I've always found this particular example astounding.

[Publius]

Imagine if the Romans had got their hands on it and built upon its premise?

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If such sweet Technic creations could have been possible back then, the mind boggles at what truly awesome Lego technology would be available today.

[Mike70]

neil, if you are interested in this sort of thing you should read up on heron (or hero) of alexandria. he was a greek inventor/scientist who lived in the roman province of egypt during the 1st century AD. he was one of the greatest scientific minds in history and his inventions include: a steam engine, the windwheel, the first automatic doors, the first vending machines, the force pump, the syringe, the stand alone fountain, the first odometer, and he formulated many of the early ideas about optics.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

[Neil]

^^ Nice youtube video!

[Cody]

Hmmmm

[Neil]

Hmmmm

Hmmmm what?

[Kaos]

I am not that surprised that this kind of genius existed in antiquity. The analog computer is pure brilliance, and highly practical. The brilliant ideas were isolated from others pretty much until the printing press. Once ideas could be committed to text and could be easily reproduced and distributed then idea germination became "viral" and is one of the primary causes of innovation explosion over the last several centuries. Ideas built upon ideas in rapid distribution. The modern computer coupled with the internet is the catalyst that is sparking the current innovation explosion.

Since these ideas never came into common widespread use it provides the impression that humanity never had the ideas in the first place. One wonders what would have happened if the printing press(something way simpler to create than the Antikythera Mechanism) were invented in 100BC where we would be today.

[Eyebiter]

Hmmmm

Cody welcome back.

[brer]

One of the main reasons the Romans never developed higher technology than they did was likely the prevalence of slavery. Cheap labor has a tendency to stifle innovation.

The Antikythera mechanism by itself was a cool little gizmo. If the Romans had been using a floating point decimal system, it could have easily been the basis of an analog computer such as some of the ones Charles Babbage invented much later.

The mechanism also used orbital gears. This concept is found in many complex mechanical systems today.

The technology the Romans were using at the time was not up to the task of using anything really advanced.

Some of the things that kept the Romans from using the steam engine and other advanced toys that they had knowledge of:

Alloys. The only real alloy that they used in quantity was bronze.
Metallurgy. The strongest steel they had was a type of blister steel
Machining. They could cast metals, and even knew of lost wax casting, but their most common form of metal working involved getting the metal hot and hitting it with a hammer. No metals hard enough to cut steel reliably were to be had. A lack of decent abrasives would have been an issue also.
Chemical knowledge. Without understanding how metals react under temperature, the boiler for any steam engine they made would constantly foul and/or corrode in very short order.

It sounds nice to think that the Romans were so close to developing decent technology, but imho they weren't. An invention usually does not come complete without a lot of previous inventions that laid it's groundwork.

As an example, think of a simple nut and bolt. Without any other technology other than a blacksmith shop, make one of each. Now make ten more of each such that they are all interchangeable. What different technologies did you have to create as precursors before you could make the nuts and bolts?

Now here is something to think about. The Antikythera mechanism was likely not a one off item. It had too much thought put into it's design. While others have not been found, I think it likely that there are more out there.

[Publius]

Good points, brer. It's the "tools to make the tools to make the tools" problem. Sci-fi author Eric Flint's 1632 series discusses this problem a lot. It's about a West Virginia town that's somehow transported back to Germany during the Thirty Years' War (the year 1632, to be precise).

[Neil]

Good points, brer. It's the "tools to make the tools to make the tools" problem. Sci-fi author Eric Flint's 1632 series discusses this problem a lot. It's about a West Virginia town that's somehow transported back to Germany during the Thirty Years' War (the year 1632, to be precise).
Sounds an interesting book? Is it?

[AcesandEights]

Sounds an interesting book? Is it?

Exactly what I was thinking. It's got some decent reviews on Amazon.

[brer]

The first book is a free download from the baen free library.

[Publius]

Sounds an interesting book? Is it?

I enjoyed it, and went on to read the next two in the series. There are a lot more that I haven't gotten around to yet.

The concept of the book (like zombie fiction, actually) is the kind of thing that can be very prone to wankery. Flint constrained this tendency to some effect by having in mind an actual town in West Virginia that is the same size as the fictional town (Grantville) in his books, and limiting the resources available in Grantville to what actually exists in the real town (e.g., no convoys of Navy SEALs "just happen to be passing through town" at the time of the event). This keeps the series on a reasonably level-headed and realistic keel even though Flint has opened the series up to collaboration from amateur writers on the Internet. He has a web forum where people discuss at great length and in great detail what kinds of technologies could reasonably be maintained in the 17th century starting with resources and information available in Grantville.


The first book is a free download from the baen free library.

True, thanks for reminding me. I just checked and it looks like you can actually read the first TWO books in the series (1632 and 1633) for free now. Here is a link to the Baen Free Library (http://www.baen.com/library/) (from which you can find those two books and over a hundred additional Baen science fiction novels readable online for free).

[AcesandEights]

Thanks for the heads up, gents. I'll definitely give the first book a read. I do love some alternate timeline, slightly out-of-step historical fiction and the modern meshing with bygone eras.

[Neil]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17989915


The secrets of one of the most remarkable technological finds from Ancient Greece have been probed for the first time using powerful X-ray imaging equipment, specially shipped to Athens.

The Antikythera Mechanism as it is known, is regarded as the world's oldest "computer" and is thought to have been used to predict solar and lunar eclipses and record dates of the ancient Olympiad. Its remains were recovered from a Roman shipwreck off the southern coast of Greece in 1901.

BBC Four's The Two-Thousand Year Old Clock will be broadcast on Thursday 10 May 2012 at 2100 BST. Or watch afterwards on BBC iPlayer.

-- -------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 PM ----------

Cannot recommend this documentary highly enough! Some of the revelations are astounding! Amazing!!!

[Sammich]

Carl Sagan has said that if the Library of Alexandria which contained so much advanced knowledge of that era wasn't destroyed, then we would already be sending manned missions to nearby stars.

[Neil]

Carl Sagan has said that if the Library of Alexandria which contained so much advanced knowledge of that era wasn't destroyed, then we would already be sending manned missions to nearby stars.

And seeing the knowledge and understanding we had over 2000 years ago, I can believe it!

And PLEASE watch the documentary!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01hlkcq/The_TwoThousandYearOld_Computer/