Ahh, religion and ignorance at its modern day best!

[Neil]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8241517/Clerics-salute-brave-Pakistan-killer.html

[krisvds]

Sad. A disgusting start to the new year.
Considering that Pakistan is a demographic timebomb as well as a haven for extremists, things are once again looking pretty grim for the future.

[darth los]

Sad. A disgusting start to the new year.
Considering that Pakistan is a demographic timebomb as well as a haven for extremists, things are once again looking pretty grim for the future.


Well, Glad to see that whole "war on terror" thing that has bankrupted this country has paid off. :rolleyes:

:cool:

[Neil]

well, glad to see that whole "war on terror" thing that has bankrupted this country has paid off. :rolleyes:

:cool:
lol!!!

[EvilNed]

Sometimes it feels like we live in the 17th century and not the 21st.

[blind2d]

Yeah... were it not for the technology, and all that stuff...

[Mr. Clean]

Religion can be a scary thing but personally I believe if more people lived by the golden rule then the world would be a much better place weither you believe in a God or not. Too many people caught up in themselves or their actions to even give a shit about someone driving a vehicle behind them.

[EvilNed]

I understand that religion is not a choice, an ironic trait shared by homosexuality, and one cannot choose to stop believing in god. But I do think that most need to at least do some fact checking and start thinking outside their box.

[Neil]

Religion can be a scary thing but personally I believe if more people lived by the golden rule then the world would be a much better place weither you believe in a God or not. Too many people caught up in themselves or their actions to even give a shit about someone driving a vehicle behind them.

You're talking about ethics and morality, which in itself has nothing to really do with religion as such.

ie: There's no reason why folks can behave nicely to each other and yet not believe in a God.

[AcesandEights]

You're talking about ethics and morality, which in itself has nothing to really do with religion as such.

ie: There's no reason why folks can behave nicely to each other and yet not believe in a God.

I agree.

“Ethical Culture is religious to those who are religiously minded, and merely ethical to those who are not so minded.”

--Felix Adler, speaking on the Ethical Culture movement

[darth los]

Don't know what it is but ethics, morals and manners are at a premium now days.

It's seems that people in general are very mean and couldn't care less about something unless it affects them or someone they love directly.

:cool:

[JDFP]

I understand that religion is not a choice, an ironic trait shared by homosexuality, and one cannot choose to stop believing in god. But I do think that most need to at least do some fact checking and start thinking outside their box.

Religion after the age of accountability is certainly a choice -- me thinks.

Someone may be pre-disposed to a specific religion (i.e. their parents being a certain faith) -- but there's a difference between being culturally pre-disposed towards something and actively partaking/participating. Someone can be born into a Baptist family -- it doesn't mean that person will be a Baptist even though they are culturally pre-disposed to being the same as their family. Religion is only outside an individual's personal choice when they are too young to have no say in the matter -- after the age of accountability (which varies from different cultures and societies) it's all about a matter of choosing to believe and follow a religious path and/or not. It's all about choice after that point. I choose to be Catholic because it makes the most sense to me -- it was not forced upon me (in fact, I'm the only Catholic in my very Baptist family). Of course, most people won't ever bother to think for themselves in differing what their parents and/or peers believed when they were being raised which is a shame. In this matter, I agree 100% with you that people need to start thinking outside their box.

I'm not even going to start in on the homosexuality thing as being a choice or not because it will only prove to start raising people here coming after my throat (which I prefer non-bloody) -- but needless to say I would disagree with some's thoughts on the matter.

j.p.

[Mr. Clean]

You're talking about ethics and morality, which in itself has nothing to really do with religion as such.

ie: There's no reason why folks can behave nicely to each other and yet not believe in a God.

True enough

I'm wasn't saying religion dictates weither your a good person or a bad person but most religions are built around good ethics and morals. The golden rule isn't a religious only concept.

---------- Post added at 12:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------


I understand that religion is not a choice, an ironic trait shared by homosexuality, and one cannot choose to stop believing in god. But I do think that most need to at least do some fact checking and start thinking outside their box.

I disagree, religion and sexuality is indeed a choice. People flip flop on both topics all the time. Couples sometimes get a divorce and one of people pursue a relationship with someone of the same gender afterward.

EDIT: Guess I opened the can of worms that JDFP wanted to avoid. I once had a gay boss who did what I said in the above statement. He got married and had kids or a kid not sure which one it was but after 10 years or so him and his wife split and he became gay afterwards. This is why I have the opinion that I do.

[BillyRay]

I was Just reading something about this. "10 things Athiests and Christians can (and must) agree on":

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

Rationality and Faith can work hand in hand.

Militant Fundimentalism, of any stripe, helps no one.

[JDFP]

I disagree, religion and sexuality is indeed a choice. People flip flop on both topics all the time. Couples sometimes get a divorce and one of people pursue a relationship with someone of the same gender afterward.

Well said. And agreed.

j.p.

[blind2d]

Mr. Clean is right! Religion is a personal choice, and so is sexuality. I don't care how much flack I get for saying this, either!

[BillyRay]

>flak flak flak<

Regardless of any choices made, individuals have their own particular inclinations toward all sorts of things.

Technically what we are is meat with electrical impulses. But those impulses, depending on which bit of meat they're giving a jolt to, tend to make us lean in all sorts of directions.

Plus there's DNA (microscopic bits of meat), enviornmental factors (what Mom & Dad's electrical impulses made them do), etcetera, ad nauseum.

Choice is an illusion too, when you think about it.

(But that's just my head meat pulsing with it's own electrical zippys)

[Neil]

Mr. Clean is right! Religion is a personal choice, and so is sexuality. I don't care how much flack I get for saying this, either!

Religion is a personal choice, but heavy infuenced by culture/society.

Sexuality certainly is not a personal choice.

[Mr. Clean]

Religion is a personal choice, but heavy infuenced by culture/society.

Sexuality certainly is not a personal choice.

explain

[darth los]

I've always laugh at those who believe sexual orientation is a choice.

To those people i say (men mostly) try this: Try going out with a guy. What? Disgusting you say? You only like women you say?

Well how do you think gays and lesbians feel when everyone wants them to be attracted to a gender they they are just not attracted to?

You'd figure they'd be just as disgusted right?

Just as it's not a choice whether i like women or not it's not a choice for them either.

:cool:

[Neil]

explain

OK...

Religion is a personal choice, but heavy infuenced by culture/society.

Sexuality certainly is not a personal choice.

:)





What are you specifically unsure about?

[JDFP]

I've always laugh at those who believe sexual orientation is a choice.

To those people i say (men mostly) try this: Try going out with a guy. What? Disgusting you say? You only like women you say?

Well how do you think gays and lesbians feel when everyone wants them to be attracted to a gender they they are just not attracted to?

You'd figure they'd be just as disgusted right?

Just as it's not a choice whether i like women or not it's not a choice for them either.

:cool:

I've never understood this argument -- it doesn't hold up to me at all.

There's a big difference between having specific thoughts towards an individual and acting on said thoughts. I could think about killing someone all day -- if I don't actually kill the person am I still a murderer because I've thought about doing it for a long time?

There's a difference between having a genetic and/or cultural pre-dispostion to be "attracted" to a certain type of individual or group and acting upon such attraction. I'm attracted to brunettes (mmm... Winona Ryder...) myself. Does that mean it's not a "choice" for me to sleep with Winona or not if given the opportunity? I suppose if someone was holding a gun to my head it would not be a choice. Otherwise, it is a choice. Unless I'm forced by coersion to sleep with a specific person -- it's a choice whether to do it or not.

I'd go so far and say that some people are born with some genetic goo that makes them more attracted to members of their own sex from their chromosomal soup floating around in them -- to an extent. We as humans are more than just our hormones and chromosomes (my opinion, again). It's not a choice to be born with that disposition. However, it is certainly a choice to pick who said individual chooses to sleep with or not. (These are just my opinions).

I'm not making any value judgements against people -- but being a heterosexual or homosexual is not the same as being born, say, caucasion or hispanic. We choose who we sleep with in society -- at least in America -- therefore it is a choice.

j.p.

[Mr. Clean]

OK...

Religion is a personal choice, but heavy infuenced by culture/society.

Sexuality certainly is not a personal choice.

:)

What are you specifically unsure about?

whatever :D



I've always laugh at those who believe sexual orientation is a choice.

To those people i say (men mostly) try this: Try going out with a guy. What? Disgusting you say? You only like women you say?

Well how do you think gays and lesbians feel when everyone wants them to be attracted to a gender they they are just not attracted to?

You'd figure they'd be just as disgusted right?

Just as it's not a choice whether i like women or not it's not a choice for them either.

:cool:

"I always laugh at those who think they have an opinion. HaHaHa :elol:"

Laugh away Darth, laugh away. I'm glad I could give you a laugh. :lol:

I dunno about you but I choose not to put penis in or anywhere near any of my orifices.

With this "they didn't get to choose" arguement, you open all kinds of doors and it doesn't just stop at what type of gender. It carries on to age, race, ect. Child molestors were born attracted to 8 month old baby girls? They can't help it because they didn't get the choice in the manner of who they are attracted to and want to have sex with.

No one said being gay was bad. Only that they have the freedom to choose to be gay or straight.

[JDFP]

No one said being gay was bad. Only that they have the freedom to choose to be gay or straight.

Some homosexuals are certainly born with a genetic disposition to be attracted towards other men / women towards other women. It's scientific regarding chromosomal 'stuff'. It doesnt' mean they must act on this though -- this is where the choice comes into play.

No one is born as a homosexual just as no one is born as a sociopath or pedophile (though there are genetic codings that can be traced in said people -- I'm not comparing these types of people to homosexuals, only pointing out that they all have some unique genetic goo that can be traced) -- but people are sometimes born with a disposition to be attracted towards others of the same sex. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But people certainly can choose to act upon those specific disposiions or not act upon them -- this is where the matter of choice comes into play. Hell, I'm a confident enough guy to say I think Robert Redford is a damn fine looking man -- that doesn't mean I'd act in choosing to sleep with him.

j.p.

[Danny]

I wrote a long thing that got deleted by my web fucking up when i tried to post so i'll summarize it.

Both sides of this argument are giving one answer out of a possible two for billions of humans, each with an exponentially larger amount of points in there life with increasing variety, be it nurture or nature that affect this original point on debate. This is like the argument about making a clone and it being an exact duplicate of you, when it never could be because no to humans occupy the same space at the same time at the same relative constant and experience all of there lifes points of forking off so to speak at the same time and certainly not in the same way. This is not a true debate because you are focussing on too large a sample and therefore there will never be a black and white choice of answers. because theres about a billion shades of grey between.

This is a person to person thing and should not be a large one stamp grand answer for all of humanity.

Not unlike religion, to segway it nicely back to the original topic.

[EvilNed]

I disagree, religion and sexuality is indeed a choice. People flip flop on both topics all the time. Couples sometimes get a divorce and one of people pursue a relationship with someone of the same gender afterward.


Uhm. I think I just got dumber just by reading that. Sorry, but when you learn the ability to turn gay at will, give the rest of us a holler will you?

Also, I'd like to point out that as an atheist (and getting prouder by the minute, I might add...) I cannot turn religious. No matter how much I want too. It's impossible for me. And I doubt you could turn atheist if you "wanted" too. Or? Can you? Please, this is a sincere question.

[Danny]

Uhm. I think I just got dumber just by reading that. Sorry, but when you learn the ability to turn gay at will, give the rest of us a holler will you?

inb4 click your red sequined shoes, you just pucker your lips and blow, its surrounds us, it penetrates us ect, ect. yuck yuck yuck.

[Publius]

Also, I'd like to point out that as an atheist (and getting prouder by the minute, I might add...) I cannot turn religious. No matter how much I want too. It's impossible for me. And I doubt you could turn atheist if you "wanted" too. Or? Can you? Please, this is a sincere question.

To say that something is a choice is not to say that it is easy to change to a different position at will. No matter how much I want to, it'd be practically impossible for me to turn into a Justin Bieber fan. But music is a matter of personal preference. ;-)

[Mr. Clean]

Uhm. I think I just got dumber just by reading that. Sorry, but when you learn the ability to turn gay at will, give the rest of us a holler will you?


So you've never seen someone flip flop on the subject? I've seen religious people commit suicide and that's taboo thing to do as a believer. Why don't you take your own advice and do some thinking out of your own box.

[Neil]

Some homosexuals are certainly born with a genetic disposition to be attracted towards other men / women towards other women. It's scientific regarding chromosomal 'stuff'. It doesnt' mean they must act on this though -- this is where the choice comes into play.

No one is born as a homosexual just as no one is born as a sociopath or pedophile (though there are genetic codings that can be traced in said people -- I'm not comparing these types of people to homosexuals, only pointing out that they all have some unique genetic goo that can be traced) -- but people are sometimes born with a disposition to be attracted towards others of the same sex. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. But people certainly can choose to act upon those specific disposiions or not act upon them -- this is where the matter of choice comes into play. Hell, I'm a confident enough guy to say I think Robert Redford is a damn fine looking man -- that doesn't mean I'd act in choosing to sleep with him.

j.p.

Your argument really doesn't hold up I'm afraid...

We're talking about sexuality. It fairly clear that individuals are born with pretty much a wired predisposed sexual orientation, this then with events in early life will ultimately determine their adult sexuality. So ultimately there really is little choice, it's a matter of the wiring you're born with, and the modification made to that wiring in early years.

Now bringing into the argument whether they act opon it is another matter... But has nothing to do with their predisposed sexuality.

[Mike70]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain.

do they have a choice? no, i think not.

[Neil]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain.

do they have a choice? no, i think not.

Yes, it is indeed a very cultural matter...

[LoSTBoY]

If sexual orientation is something you are genetically born with, i.e the feelings of a man in a womans body and vice versa, how do you explain those greedy Bisexuals? :)

[Neil]

If sexual orientation is something you are genetically born with, i.e the feelings of a man in a womans body and vice versa, how do you explain those greedy Bisexuals? :)

Same thing...

ps: Can you reduce the depth of your sig please...

[LoSTBoY]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain.

do they have a choice? no, i think not.

Yeah I know what you mean. Effectively we all honour Christianity by following a Christian calander and Christian public holidays in the UK. Have to go with the flow sometimes even though it's not your thing, luckily we no longer get stoned or drowned being a heathen (in the UK at least).:shifty:

p.s: This better Neil? :)

[BillyRay]

, luckily we no longer get stoned or drowned being a heathen

Don't know about drowned, but most of the heathens I know are stoned pretty regularly..

[JDFP]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain.

do they have a choice? no, i think not.

It's a good point, Mike. That's why I say that someone only has a real choice of religion after reaching the age of accountability (once they can make their own decisions to follow their own path in whatever said society they live within). For example, I knew that I was led to become Catholic a LONG time before I actually did it but waited until I was 20 so my grandparents didn't kill me for becoming one of those "people who believe you can pray to Mary and saints and ask priests to forgive your sins instead of God and think works can get you into Heaven and etc. etc." that they continually argue from their cultural misunderstandings about my faith. :)

It's not so much a choice as a baby/child what religion you're born into -- but it is a choice in what path you wish to continue following (or not following for our Atheist brethren) once you have a choice in the matter after reaching accountability (if you have a choice in the matter: unlike say N. Korea).

j.p.

[darth los]

Ok, so let's get this straight. You're (not nescesarily you) a straight male predisposed from birth to be attracted to women. That's the impulse.

Now what you are saying is that it's ok for everyone to expect you to ignore that impulse and like guys? Beacause that's exactly what you're argument says that gays can do. Ignore their predisposed impulse for liking the same gender and just get with women.

Again as disgusting as it is for straight men to get with another man I would think the level of disgust would be the same for a gay man towards a woman.

it's far from the case. Just like you're brain is not wired that way, neither is theirs.

:cool:

[EvilNed]

So you've never seen someone flip flop on the subject? I've seen religious people commit suicide and that's taboo thing to do as a believer. Why don't you take your own advice and do some thinking out of your own box.

Short answer? No.

What thinking out of my box would you like me to make? You don't really make this clear.

Comparing Sexuality to Religion does not go any deeper than the fact that none of them are conscious choices. I almost regret making this statement, but I made it to prove the irony of the situation (and that irony still stands).

Let's drop religion for a second. I don't give a shit about it, and infact I look down upon it. I freely admit this, and I also agree that this is not an admireable trait. But the opinions held by many modern day religious people still surprise me and not in a good way.

To be honest, anyone who believes that homosexuality is a conscious choice made by all homosexuals knows very little, if anything, about the subject at all. I'd say any such opinion stems from either extreme isolation from the reality of the matter, as well as a mind incapable of thinking for oneself and drawing own conclusions. Perhaps blinded by dogma, perhaps by sheer ignorance. I don't know.

I've always viewed understanding as one of the most noble character traits a person can have. Understanding and patience. Religious people often preach this, but not many actually follow it. This subject is a classic example. No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all.

I don't know if you think it's a conscious choice or not. I hope you don't.

[darth los]

To be honest, anyone who believes that homosexuality is a conscious choice made by all homosexuals knows very little, if anything, about the subject at all. I'd say any such opinion stems from either extreme isolation from the reality of the matter, as well as a mind incapable of thinking for oneself and drawing own conclusions. Perhaps blinded by dogma, perhaps by sheer ignorance. I don't know.

I've always viewed understanding as one of the most noble character traits a person can have. Understanding and patience. Religious people often preach this, but not many actually follow it. This subject is a classic example. No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all.

^^^^ This.

Well said Ned. Hey that rhymed! :D

:cool:

[Mr. Clean]

Short answer? No.

No person who claims this about homosexuality can claim any understanding on the subject at all.

I don't know if you think it's a conscious choice or not. I hope you don't.

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

[JDFP]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

I can understand what you're saying -- and I agree with there being a choice in acting upon a specific sexual disposition. However, there are genetic markings that can denote chromosomal changes between heterosexual and homosexuals. The hormones/chromosomal mixes are sometimes different. I.E. -- some people that are homosexual (by no means do I believe all) are certainly born with a homosexual disposition. This does not mean that the specific person will become a homosexual or act upon these chromosomal differences. It just means they do sometimes have a specific pre-disposition to being homosexual in some circumstances.

My biggest issue with those who say that homosexuality is not a "choice" don't seem to understand is that the act of being homosexual is more than inherent chromosomes. It's also about acting upon this internal nature as well. The individual, disposition or not, still must choose to act in a specific way and live their life by this lifestyle. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- but it's a personal choice that the specific individual indulges in through action.

Anyway, I'm probably going to bow out of this discussion. I certainly mean no offense to any gays/lesbians as I know quite a few of them and they are fine people who just choose to act in a different lifestyle than I do. I'm not passing any type of value judgement against these people for their choice in living their specific lifestyle through their actions save by pointing out that it is their choice to do so -- just as it's my choice to select the specific people I choose to sleep with (or not sleep with).

If any offense has been taken by anyone in my stating that I believe it's a choice in choosing to live as a homosexual was taken then I do apologize as it was certainly not intended.

j.p.

[blind2d]

^ JD here says what I could not. Here is what I believe about the matter, almost verbatim. Not trying to just follow the herd on this, I truly believe this. But again, I don't know personally, not being homosexual, but yes... we all have a choice. Even if we don't think we do... we really do. Sometimes it takes courage, but we do have a choice... I'm tired and a tad incoherent... sorry about that.

[Mr. Clean]

I can understand what you're saying -- and I agree with there being a choice in acting upon a specific sexual disposition. However, there are genetic markings that can denote chromosomal changes between heterosexual and homosexuals. The hormones/chromosomal mixes are sometimes different. I.E. -- some people that are homosexual (by no means do I believe all) are certainly born with a homosexual disposition. This does not mean that the specific person will become a homosexual or act upon these chromosomal differences. It just means they do sometimes have a specific pre-disposition to being homosexual in some circumstances.

My biggest issue with those who say that homosexuality is not a "choice" don't seem to understand is that the act of being homosexual is more than inherent chromosomes. It's also about acting upon this internal nature as well. The individual, disposition or not, still must choose to act in a specific way and live their life by this lifestyle. I'm not saying it's right or wrong -- but it's a personal choice that the specific individual indulges in through action.

Anyway, I'm probably going to bow out of this discussion. I certainly mean no offense to any gays/lesbians as I know quite a few of them and they are fine people who just choose to act in a different lifestyle than I do. I'm not passing any type of value judgement against these people for their choice in living their specific lifestyle through their actions save by pointing out that it is their choice to do so -- just as it's my choice to select the specific people I choose to sleep with (or not sleep with).

If any offense has been taken by anyone in my stating that I believe it's a choice in choosing to live as a homosexual was taken then I do apologize as it was certainly not intended.

j.p.

Bipartisan much? Just kidding :D

I agree on not wanting to piss people and considering people's feelings to an extent but wtf is with all the damn mockery in this debate and attempts to belittle people? :rockbrow:

[JDFP]

Bipartisan much? Just kidding :D

I agree on not wanting to piss people and considering people's feelings to an extent but wtf is with all the damn mockery in this debate and attempts to belittle people? :rockbrow:

I've been called many things before, "bipartisan" isn't generally one of them. :D:p I just express my personal opinions with the moniker that they are my personal beliefs alone. People are people -- the only people I don't like are people who have no integrity or assholes. I'm a Conservative usually Republican-leaning (NOT on the Capital Punishment issue) American. I make no apologies for it and I can be deeply religious at times and certainly make no apologies for that either. But, I don't see any point in treating anyone less than human or being disrespectful.

Opinions get heated around here -- and that's fine. We talk about everything from abortion to capital punishment to these topics. And it's great. We've also gotten much better around here in the last few years I've been visiting about being more respectful to other members here. I don't always agree with Los or others, but I certainly respect them. And I rarely ever agree with Ned -- but I respect him as well even if at times he makes me want to throw my keyboard through my monitor. :p I don't see the "mockery" you are mentioning -- and if it's there, I try to ignore it. I have better things to do with my time.

I do thrive off this stuff though -- it's educational and fun.

j.p.

[LoSTBoY]

Bit back on topic, considering God and it's morals. Where is the evidence he is a forgiving god?

I'm agnostic myself, always open to theory.

However from all the gods in this crappy little world, it is one fictional God that I agree with.

Robert E. Howards Cimmerian god Crom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crom_%28fictional_deity%29).

This is a god who has created you, given you life, and expects you to use it. If you ask him for help, he will consider it an insult and curse you for it.

Quite simply: "You have been born, consider those who have not, you are the lucky ones so make the fucking most of it!!!"

[EvilNed]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

Sounds to me like your "source" is just aware of what catalyst set him in motion to being a homosexual, rather than him making any active choice. Also, I think part of the problem here is that you view this as an "opinion". Sure, you can call it that. But you won't (and aren't) getting very far with that argument. I find it difficult to respect your "opinion" on the matter, Mr. Heterosexual-religious-man.

As for the belittling, consider this: Your "opinions" are considered quite offensive. I'd put them on equal footing with racism, and I fucking will have none of that shit. It's old-school dogma based on nothing but preconcieved bullshit. If you feel I'm belittling you, then I'm sorry for hurting your feelings but shit... Imagine yourself in a heated argument with a stupid biggot and then imagine how I feel.

[Danny]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".


Honestly that sounds like a guy whos been in self denial for a long time. i mean 'suddenly' coming out of the closet as his marriage falls apart? suddenly deciding on a whim AFTER that that he is gay? honestly im not getting into this argument but that certainly sounds like the guys giving an easy to brush off answer rather than go into what could have been a long and troubling situation.

-that and one guy certainly is not a good sample of evidence for billions.

[Neil]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

There is actually some research comparing identical and non-identical twins. The identical twins were far more likely to show the same sexual orientation in adulthood... I guess not conclusive, but certainly seems to suggest that how you're initially wired has a strong effect on the outcome...

Also, as regards looking at the sexuality of a 2yr old, that's somewhat daft, as it's typically not until puberty that true sexual orientation may become clear? And if we consider this, and those suggesting homosexuality is simpy a choice, consider the hell many teenagers go through trying to do what they desperately want to do, fit in and conform, when their wiring is unfortunately telling them the opposite... Doesn't seem logical to suggest this is simply a life style choice or something as trivial as that!?

[Kaos]

I have to agree with you, Neil. Saying that it is a choice to be gay is a platitude that is too simplistic to model reality. If it were true then it would mean that blind2d and JDFP could become homosexuals merely by choosing to be so. By merely saying so in their mind they would become randy over Brad Pitt. Sound ludicrous? It is.

What makes one a heterosexual or homosexual is not the act of having sex. It starts in the brain with desire. If you desire sex with the someone of the same sex as yourself you are a homosexual, if you desire sex with the opposite sex then you are heterosexual, if the sex of the participant is irrelevant to your desire you are Mike70, Neil, or bisexual.

I am outa here before Mike or Neil zaps me. :eek:

[JDFP]

I have to agree with you, Neil. Saying that it is a choice to be gay is a platitude that is too simplistic to model reality. If it were true then it would mean that blind2d and JDFP could become homosexuals merely by choosing to be so. By merely saying so in their mind they would become randy over Brad Pitt. Sound ludicrous? It is.

What makes one a heterosexual or homosexual is not the act of having sex. It starts in the brain with desire. If you desire sex with the someone of the same sex as yourself you are a homosexual, if you desire sex with the opposite sex then you are heterosexual, if the sex of the participant is irrelevant to your desire you are Mike70, Neil, or bisexual.

I am outa here before Mike or Neil zaps me. :eek:

It's a good post, Kaos. I know I'm certainly prone to sometimes oversimplification (although more often I'm more prone to complexicating simple things). I do believe that internal chromosomes certainly do have a major impact on how an individual will become. However, I think we're more than our inherent chromosomes. We are our actions and the choices we make as well. Perhaps it's a bit of an oversimplification to say that it's just a matter of choosing or not (and ignoring the internal chromosomes that help shape someone) -- but I think it's equally an oversimplification to say that we're only what our internal nature makes us without taking into consideration our actions/choices in life. Just because someone may have homosexual thoughts doesn't make that person a homosexual.

Being homosexual is more than just chromosomes and/or hormones. Our nature as individuals is our actions as well. The internal has a tremendous bearing on our lives -- but it is not the end all be all. This is where 'choice' comes into play.

There are some people with some highly sociopathic thoughts out there (including some I know very well, unfortunately) as well and they are predisposed due to many elements (chromosomes, etc.) but that doesn't make the person a sociopath by merely having the thoughts -- it must be acted upon as well. I think both the thought and the action both have to go hand-in-hand.

I am really pleased that we've all managed to have this really interesting conversation without anyone flame-baiting or any attacks on others. It says a great deal about our great community here that we have in knowing we're able to have conversations like this without anyone going to any extremes or personal attacks. We're all better than that here -- as we've shown. It's part of the reason I dig this place so much (that plus all you people are sick fuckers like I am too who like messed-up horror flicks).

Just my thoughts on it, of course.

j.p.

[Kaos]

We will have to agree to disagree. I am not into thought crimes so I am not saying that just because someone wants to kill someone makes one a murderer. The act pretty much defines what murder is and therefore who a murderer is. But I am not talking about the crime of murder. I am talking about the definition of a homosexual. I would define a priest who never had sex with anyone a homosexual if he desired to have sex with a man. I would consider an unlucky teenager who never had sex with anyone a heterosexual if he desired to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. I think those definitions would stand in any reasonable circle of open minded folk.

That being said, according to your definition of heterosexual, you weren't one until you had sex with a female. Seconds before that event, it was a toss up as to which side of that coin would land facing up.:sneaky:

Just kidding of course. You look all man to me JD. :o

[shootemindehead]

With this "they didn't get to choose" arguement, you open all kinds of doors and it doesn't just stop at what type of gender. It carries on to age, race, ect. Child molestors were born attracted to 8 month old baby girls? They can't help it because they didn't get the choice in the manner of who they are attracted to and want to have sex with.

No one said being gay was bad. Only that they have the freedom to choose to be gay or straight.


Fuckin hell!

That's some weird "logic" there.

First of all, NOBODY wakes up one morning and "chooses" to be a chld molester. Those people are formed over a very long period, often beginning in childhood formative years, where the natural sexual imperative gets gradually twisted from the basic imprinted sexual reproduction to the power complex that's at the heart of paedophilia. People who harbour such sexual desire do not do so out of choice in any way shape or form and are often crucified mentally over the position they find themselves in. Additionally, nobody is born a paedophile and often these people have had certian "trigger" events occur in their lives that lead them on a path to their condition.

One could say too that homosexuaity is also a mental aberation of the natural sexual imperative. Whereby the person who is affected by such sexual desire is not at liberity to actively choose who they are attracted to. It's certainly somethng that the person cannot help. However, the homosexual person is born with this "twist", the paedophile is made.

So called "straight" people have a multitude of sexual aberations too within their sexual makeup, where it be a pre-disposition to redheads, to having gratification achieved by experiencing pain. These are usually built up over many years. Some lie dormant until experienced.

Sex and sexual desire is a minefield and one that's formed generally over a long period in one's sexual lifetime. However, the natural sexual imperative, ie that basic animal desire to reproduce, is there within us all from birth.

Also, people are confusing "choice" here. Sure, homosexuals "choose" which partners they wish to sleep with, just as hetrosexuals do. But, they DO NOT choose to be homosexual in the first place and that is a huge, huge difference.

[Publius]

the argument that religion is a personal choice only partially holds up. what about the millions upon millions of children that are being brought up by parents who are actively indoctrinating them into a given religion, whether that be islam, christianity, hinduism, or the worship of the holy juju bead on the mountain.

do they have a choice? no, i think not.

Sure they do. Millions decide to stay with the religion they were brought up in. Millions of others decide to convert to another religion, or drift away into agnosticism or atheism. If religion is not a choice, how do you explain the appearance and spread of new religions?


However, the natural sexual imperative, ie that basic animal desire to reproduce, is there within us all from birth.

.... (snip) ....

Sure, homosexuals "choose" which partners they wish to sleep with, just as hetrosexuals do. But, they DO NOT choose to be homosexual in the first place and that is a huge, huge difference.

These don't seem to match up. I know you must know how reproduction works, right?

[shootemindehead]

What do you mean, they don't match up?

The sexual imperative is within us all, however, in a homosexual person that basic imperative is mis-aligned somewhere. The is an aberation of that instinct.

It makes perfect sense.

[strayrider]

I did not form my opinion on facts that I pulled out of my ass. As I said before I made my choice on the matter from information my gay boss talked about. Not from reading a book, Not from what some college professor. Straight from a homosexual. Even though he called his divorce the cause of his transformation as he refered to it, no scientific data exists to prove either side of this arguement so it's all speculation. All of you standing on golden pedestals can just step off and stand with everyone else with opinions. Don't even try to call bullshit to there being zero scientific data, because last time I checked a scientist couldn't examine a 2 year old and say "Yep, he's going grow up to be a homosexual." Anyways, I'm done until the next person says something about there being no choice and I'll say "bologna".

Clean,

Although you are correct in your assessment that "zero" evidence exists to "prove" either theory, enough scientific research on the topic has been conducted to at least come up with a workable hypothesis as to the causal factors of homosexuality. As such, the following web page may be of some interest (keeping in mind that homosexuality is defined as a person's self-schema (how they view themselves based on past experiences, present knowledge of self, and future expectations of self) and not necessarily in their observable behavior).

http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Further, your boss' experience is limited to the parameters of a single "case study". In order to convince others that your argument is correct, you'll need to provide data other than "he told me so".

-stray-

ps-- Khardis, is that you? Is this me? :D