Why we fight; also a reason for the usage of high-yield nuclear weapons

[Arcades057]

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday.

Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 km) south of Baghdad.

The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma.

The bodies also had been desecrated, and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said.

A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday.

Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said.

It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.(Watch sad end to desperate search for soldiers -- 1:31)

The bodies were found in the Yusufiya area, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell said, adding he believes the soldiers were mortally wounded, then moved.

It was unclear whether he meant the wounds were suffered in the initial attack on a checkpoint or afterward. "Where we found them was not based on their own movements," he said.

The soldiers' families have been notified of the developments, he said.

The bodies were transferred to a coalition base and were to be taken to the United States for DNA testing.

Caldwell said he had not heard whether a note was placed on the bodies.

A high-ranking official with the Iraqi defense ministry had earlier offered a conflicting account, telling CNN Tuesday that the soldiers' bodies were found on Saturday in Jurf al-Sakhar town about 80 km (50 miles) south of Baghdad.

Group claims killings
Meanwhile, a claim posted on a Web site Tuesday said the soldiers were "slaughtered" in accordance with God's will.

"We announce the good news to our Islamic nation that we executed God's will and slaughtered the two crusader animals we had in captivity," says the claim, reportedly from the Mujahedeen Shura Council, a group linked to al Qaeda. "And God has given our Emir, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer, the good fortune of carrying out the legitimate court's command in person."

CNN cannot independently verify the claim, but it was posted on a Web site which frequently has carried such messages from insurgent groups.

Asked whether he gives credibility to a Monday claim by the same group that it had abducted the soldiers, Caldwell responded, "Absolutely not."

Earlier, military spokesman Maj. William Wilhoite told CNN he did not know whether the bodies showed signs of torture. "I haven't heard anything through our official channels," he said.

The U.S. military said Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, of Springfield, Massachusetts, was killed in the Friday attack, after which Menchaca and Tucker went missing.

Asked to provide more information about the attack, Caldwell said the military would provide details -- possibly as soon as Tuesday night -- after making sure the soldiers' families were fully apprised about the incident. (Watch for the witnesses' description of the suspected abduction -- 2:54)

Menchaca's aunt told CNN the family had been notified of his death.

Menchaca's uncle, Mario Vasquez, said family members were distraught, and were waiting to receive the body before making any arrangements. Earlier, some family members heard of the possible discovery through the media, before being notified by the military, Vasquez said.

"I wish they'd punish the people that do these kinds of things right away, instead of taking forever and spending millions of dollars," Vasquez said. "I think, you capture them, make them pay for what they did. Don't think that it's just two more soldiers. Don't negotiate anything. They [the killers] didn't. They didn't negotiate it with my nephew. They didn't negotiate it with Tucker."

Another of Menchaca's uncles, Ken MacKenzie, lashed out at the government Tuesday on NBC's "Today Show," saying it didn't do enough to bring the men home safe, The Associated Press reported. (Full story)

A force of more than 8,000 Iraqi and U.S. troops has been searching for the two soldiers. Searchers initially found a body that was thought to be one of the service members', Caldwell said, but turned out not to be.

Caldwell said troops used unmanned aerial vehicles, helicopters, boats and dive teams in the search. (Watch how search uses land, air, water resources -- 2:59)

One coalition soldier was killed and 8 were wounded during the search operations, he said. Two "anti-Iraqi elements" were killed and another 78 suspected insurgents have been detained, he added.

The three soldiers involved in Friday's attack were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) out of Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the military said.

CNN's Barbara Starr, Cal Perry, and Ed Lavandera contributed to this report.

Copyright 2006 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.




Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS.

Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed.

[tju1973]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS.

Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed.

Truthfully, what is the point in having the bomb and not using it? Plus if we nuke it, we still can slant drill the oil...

Yes, I agree with you..

:evil:

[Arcades057]

Well, the using the bomb was actually hyperbole. I wouldn't really want us to do that unless there were a lot of other criteria met.

[Philly_SWAT]

Well, I do not approve of such tactics by our ememies. But my thoughts are, it does not seem as if anyone on our side is interested at all at the motivations of the .... insurgents, terrorists, whatever you want to call them. Fact on the matter is, we have been dropping bombs on arab countries almost daily for more than a decade. Imagine that the sides were switched. Imagine if the US was very inferior as far as arms go, and a foreign land was dropping bombs all the time around the US. Your high school where you met your sweetheart? Destroyed. Your best friend? Killed in a bombing. Your mom? Multilated in an air strike. Then they invaded your home state, in an effort to "liberate" you from an evil Governor. That invasion includes more bombings, which are very effective at taking out targets. How much remorse woould you feel for mutilating one of the invaders? Would you volunteer to plant a car bomb near their staging area? Now, you could say "but that's rediculous, our Governor is not evil". That may be true, but if this world superpower, who the rest of the world was afraid to challenge, told the world that it was true, and they were acting whether the rest of the world approved or not, what would it matter?

Again, I am not defending the actions of our enemies. But our government gave false reasons for entering this conflict. I dont think that is in dispute. So what are these people supposed to think? And where did Irag get all these guns, anyway? Why ,from us, thats where. We were more than glad to funnel guns to them when they were fighting Iran back in the day.

I could ramble on, but my point is, I think that the US has proven (not that it was even in question) that our military is far superior to any other in the world. But we are still not trying to understand these people, and figure out the motovations of our "enemies". Forcing democracy on people at the point of a gun only serves to make the rich get richer. To me, that is the unfortunate truth as to what this is all about. I do not have an answer as to what our policy should be. I would like to see every American soldier out of Irag right now. But that could be a dissasterous event for the world, and the people of Irag. It is a mess that we have created. We lied about the reasons for going to war. There has been scandal after scandal as a result. We had no plan to keep the peace, no plan to facilitate our exit, no plan to rebuild the infascructure. If we were truly concerned about the "poor, innocent people of Irag" and felt an obligation to go into their country and "liberate" them, where is the plan as to what we were going to do once we took control and got Saddam? What was the plan.....hang around indefinately while 2,500 Americans get killed?

On the surface, it seems an abhorent act to torture and multilate other human beings. But until you are faced with the situation that those people are in, it would seem difficult to me to pass judgement. We hear what are government says, but they are already revealed to be liars. What are our enemies over there hearing? We do not know for sure. This whole conflict was a huge clusterf**k from day one. I only know one thing for sure, that all of these contractors like Haliburton that are over there are making billions and billions of our taxpayer dollars, and the situation seems no where near coming to a conclusion.

[Mike70]

what about the detainees that have been tortured by US forces? those incidents of torture that led to several court-martials and a world wide stink. what about the soldiers from the 101st that are being charged with the murders & attempted cover up of said murders of several iraqi detainees? what about the massacre at haditha?

please don't think i am defending the insurgents. i am not. i have a complete and total repugnance for violence that is born of the fact that i have seen so much of it and know exactly what it does to people. killing people is wrong - period. it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well. i am simply trying to point out the utter one-sideness of your comments. you also don't seem to take into account that we are invaders and people are going to resist. how would you feel if your country were invaded? would you worry about rules and the geneva convention? or would you try to resist and inflict harm on the invaders in any way you could?

please don't try to pretend that the US armed forces are somehow golden boys who never break the rules and never commit the sorts of atrocities that you are so fast to condemn the arab insurgents for.

i was in the US army for 3 years and served in somalia for 6 months. i have seen things done by both sides in conflict that should churn the stomach of any rational, reasonable, decent person.

[EvilNed]

Ever since the American Civil War, civilians and innocents have suffered on a massive scale. Infact, civilians and innocents have always suffered in warfare. And remember, the US started this war. The US started it, and now you can't deal with what's happening to US soldiers? Did you think it was going to be a cakewalk? Did you think people would just let you occupy their land without giving you a fight? Please.

While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR.

Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison, being tortured and interrogated on a daily basis and they don't even get a trial or a lawyer. Maybe that's something you should direct your attention to, if you feel bad for innocent people. It's closer, and it's maybe something you can have an effect on.

Again, this is a war. It is a war that the US wanted. The US should be prepared for, and deal with, the consequences.

[Danny]

i thought we only fought for al-kee-hol and the ladies:sneaky:

[Arcades057]

While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR.

In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions.

[EvilNed]

In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions.

Ok, that made about as much sense as a bunch of sausages caught in a freighttrain to the arctic, but I'll let it slide.

Please provide arguments for why my me despising politics is racist and ignorant? Because if you can't, then you shouldn't have said it.

A war is a war. You guys aren't innocent of torture yourself, so don't start throwing stones.

[Mike70]

In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions.

as a matter of fact, chester, one should expect torture if one falls into the hands of certain enemies. i understood that if i were captured in somalia the treatment that i would get would not be in accordance with the geneva convention nor would it be like club med.

i am a US citizen(i think evilned has lived over here before & might even be a US citizen, before moving to sweden - ned correct me if this is wrong) and i hate us politics and policies with a passion also. this country is on the wrong path entirely and we are being led down that path by a bunch of jackasses who care for nothing other than profit and putting even more money into the pockets of the rich. bush is the worst president since herbert hoover, hands down and as a "leader" i wouldn't follow the man to a free indian buffet - and i love indian food.

you can whine and cry about the ill treatment of POWs all you want. you can close your eyes to the fact that it seems like everyday there is some new instance of ill treatment, torture, even outright murder of iraqi civilians and detainees. you can close your eyes and pretend that the US armed forces are knights in shining armor, full of virtue, who would never break the rules - but as for me, my eyes are wide f*cking open.

a great character once said something very true: "understanding is a three edged sword."

[p2501]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums: Is this sort of behavior (mutilating POWs) an acceptable course of action to driving the enemy out of your lands, IN YOUR MINDS.

Personally I think it's time to be done with the niceness we've tried showing to these creatures. No more Club Gitmo, no more put up your hands and surrender, it's time to wipe this element of the world's population off of the map. Remember the Golden Rule? Do unto others? Well apparently this is how they want us to treat them, so I say we oblige them. Save the idiotic "well it's those soldiers' faults for being there" BS, because if you really feel that way you deserve to be committed.


1) because this attack clearly wasn't retalitpry for the US JDAMing the #1 Al-Queada guy in Iraq?

2) what is the sense in deploying weapons of mass destruction against a core element of fighters that are non indegenous to the region?

3) way to be reactionary.


In a war one does not go expecting to be taken prisoner and then cut into pieces. One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment. As to your dislike of the US, that's about as ignorant and stupid as being a racist and I feel sorry for you. Maybe you should try learning a little bit more about a people before making your assumptions.


bullsit again.

name for me one war the US has been involved in where doccumented atrocities have NOT occured? and atrocities were not commited by either side.

we executed POWs in Veitnam, so did the NVA.
we executed POWs in Korea, so did the Koreans.
we executed POWs in Germany and the south pacific. likewise their respective armies did the same.

you hypothesizing about some fictional standard the US military upholds, and atleast to me is based largely on what you've seen in movies, or bad TV shows. not reality.

Torture and dismemberment occurs where ever there is prolonged armed conflict.

[EvilNed]

(i think evilned has lived over here before & might even be a US citizen, before moving to sweden - ned correct me if this is wrong)

No need for correction. I am a US citizen, but I'm not living there. Just wanted to make that clear, I'm not some Euro yuppie who hates the US "just because" and who try to be anti-capitalist, without really knowing what a capitalist is. They annoy me too.

The US, like all countries, has flaws. Most of them can be found in the goverment, not the ideals or the people.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

One understands that death is a possibility, true, but not torture and dismemberment.

I'm assuming you are a supporter of this administration and this war. This administration that condones the use of torture. That is interesting.

One of the many, many reasons we should all denounce torture outright is that it pretty much lowers our own moral standards and makes it "okay" for people to use torture against us. It's very easy now for other countries/enemies to say "Well, how come it's only okay when you do it, and it's not okay for us to do it?" This administration, through this war, has brought an incredible amount of shame on this country.

As for those two soldiers...I think it's terrible. I can't imagine what they went through and what their families are going through right now. I fear the video footage that I assume will eventually turn up on the internet. It turns my stomach. But we can't say that this is in any way unexpected. This isn't anything new. I, for one, expected it. I did indeed think that after we got Zarqawi (and really, the world is a better place without him), and we paraded his corpse on every news channel, and then Bush decided it was time to visit Iraq and toot his horn, because he's so damn cocksure of everything, someone, somewhere would do something to remind us that this is no where near in the bag--like we were lead to believe it would be.

[mista_mo]

Personally, I think it's horrible what happened to the soldiers..but it is war, and like people have said before, it's going to happen. sure, people would like to think that each side will follow the rules, but it sure as hell isn't going to happen. I do not condone what they did to the two men, but again, it is a war, and atrocities are commited in war. It happens in every war humanity has ever fought, and I believe that is ingrained inside of us. not the act of torture, but trying to win a conflict anyway possible. The insurgents could be using this as a moral drain, in the hopes that it may make the soldiers not fight, and dis-obey commands too fight. I mean, they may be trying to ingrain in our minds that if we fight them, we could end up like that. Thats just my little take on it myself.

oh, and if you don't believe me about the atrocities commited in Mankinds history of war and conflict (which is a holy hell of alot) check it out cometime, and you'll see that neither side, no matter where it is from, has done stuff similar to this before. no one is perfect, and the need for revenge and retribution is something that we'd all feel if put into the situation.

[Mike70]

Personally, I think it's horrible what happened to the soldiers..but it is war, and like people have said before, it's going to happen. the need for revenge and retribution is something that we'd all feel if put into the situation.

it is horrible, in fact everything that happens in war is horrible and that is the exact reason that we need to turn our backs on this outrageous, primative past time before we end up either destroying ourselves and/or our homeworld.

i don't not understand violence anymore. nor do i understand the need to engage in it to achieve a political or religous end. my time in somalia taught me one very, very big lesson - violence simply begets more violence. nothing good ever comes of it- only murder and pain which leads to yet more murder and pain. someone has to be big enough to step away.

why is it considered by many heroic to kill "them" but yet an atrocity when one of "us" is killed? it is just this sort of one-dimensional, myopic thinking that has led humankind to make so many mistakes with so many terrible consequences. like i said in my post above - i have a complete and total repugnance for violence born of the fact that i have seen real violence and war up close and what i saw sickened, shocked, and repulsed me to a degree that as i have gotten older i have become more and more opposed to violence and war.

killing other human beings (except in an act of self-defense like some lunatic attacking you with a knife or a similar situation) is WRONG - period end of discussion. WRONG when terrorists/insurgents do it and WRONG when govts. give young, impressionable people the license to kill and then condone that killing as heroic. there is NOTHING heroic about warfare - it is sheer and complete organized mass murder.

[mista_mo]

I agree...I, liek you feel that killing is wrong. I hope I didn't give you the immpression that I thought when one of the coaltion soldiers kill someone it's heroic, I don't. I don't find anything heroic about killing someone..now, if he ended up saving someones life because of it, then it can be argued that it is heroic.

Having life is a gift..the way I look at it...every human life is a worth the same as everyone elses, no matter who they are, or what they do. We all start out as equals, only when we do something so utterly horrible does the worth go down.

Take it as you will, but I think it makes sense...killing isn't heroic, it's killing, thats all it is.

[Mike70]

I agree...I, liek you feel that killing is wrong. I hope I didn't give you the immpression that I thought when one of the coaltion soldiers kill someone it's heroic, I don't. I don't find anything heroic about killing someone..now, if he ended up saving someones life because of it, then it can be argued that it is heroic.

Having life is a gift..the way I look at it...every human life is a worth the same as everyone elses, no matter who they are, or what they do. We all start out as equals, only when we do something so utterly horrible does the worth go down.

Take it as you will, but I think it makes sense...killing isn't heroic, it's killing, thats all it is.

no. no. no. mista mo. you didn't give me the impression that killing is heroic. i was just agreeing with you on the horrible things that happen in warfare and why it needs to be abandoned by humankind. i am also trying to impress upon the totally feeble minds of two particular posters that:

a. they have no friggin idea what they are talking about.
b. they have a totally one-sided view of this entire situation in iraq
c. that just because you are an american doesn't automatically make you a good guy. this is life and death - not a fraking baseball or football game where you root for the home team no matter what.
d. if they had any experience in warfare and knew just what it did to people , they would have an entirely different opinion on this matter.

sorry if i gave you the impression that i was trying to come down on you. far from it.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

c. that just because you are an american doesn't automatically make you a good guy. this is life and death - not a fraking baseball or football game where you root for the home team no matter what.


Sorry to go off-topic a bit, but the above reminded me of a blog entry someone I know wrote recently...thought I'd share it. ;)

http://philosophersplayground.blogspot.com/2006/06/conservatives-look-at-who-and-liberals.html

[Arcades057]

Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now.

[Adrenochrome]

Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now.
Does this mean you're leaving?:D

[zombie04]

Ever since the American Civil War, civilians and innocents have suffered on a massive scale. Infact, civilians and innocents have always suffered in warfare. And remember, the US started this war. The US started it, and now you can't deal with what's happening to US soldiers? Did you think it was going to be a cakewalk? Did you think people would just let you occupy their land without giving you a fight? Please.

While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR.

Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison, being tortured and interrogated on a daily basis and they don't even get a trial or a lawyer. Maybe that's something you should direct your attention to, if you feel bad for innocent people. It's closer, and it's maybe something you can have an effect on.

Again, this is a war. It is a war that the US wanted. The US should be prepared for, and deal with, the consequences.

Ok, my opinion on this war is very clear. First of all I think it was necessary and eventually the end result will show why it was necessary. But regarding Guantanamo Bay, I honestly don't give a sh*t what happens to those people. They tried to kill Americans and were caught in the act. If torture (and that word can be defined lots of ways) gets information out of them that is useful then I have no problem "torturing" them. I honestly think we're not doing enough in Iraq and Afghanistan and I think we should not stop until every one of those sons of b*tches is dead. Naturally there will be casualties in a war, but you can't let people dying make you turn away from what's right. So far we've been in Iraq and have had over 2,500 deaths, a good portion of which came from mechanical failures and terrorist using dirty tactics (I'll get back to this). In World War II, we suffered many casualties but that didn't distract us from the final goal. Instead it hardened our resolve and we ultimately won because people new it was worth the risk. Now about the dirty tactics (roadside bombs and so forth), I think this should only be a reason why we need to be harder on these bastards because as long they still have life, they will try to kill us. A good portion of these people swore their lives against us before we entered this war and they have been forced to believe that they are right and we are the Great Satan. Despite the fact that they are turning themselves against their own religion without knowing it, they attack us and usually kill themselves in the process. This war was never suppose to be a cakewalk and the Bush administration made it very clear before we entered Afghanistan. This really is a war on terror, despite what some here say, and as long as terrorists threaten us on a large scale it will never end. My personal belief about the liberals in America is that they've had it so good compared to their parents and grandparents they never needed to know the true meaning of sacrifice and refuse to do so for anything. They have no backbone and are unaware of the long-term consequences of backing down to terrorists. In all honesty I don't want anybody to respond to this because I was just trying to state my opinion. I also don't want anybody to respond to this because I work 10-14 hours a day and don't have time to get on the internet much and don't feel like getting into one of the many over-long debates about politics. But if you feel like you must speak your mind, do so, but I honestly don't like getting in these kinds of debates, they just make me push a certain button in me.

[Arcades057]

Zombie, I doubt now that sense will work with some of them. Clear cut: Our people were chopped to pieces; we made their's wear underwear on their heads. They say that the actions are equal in terms of savagry.\

Oh well.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Now here's my question to the "they're just missunderstood" elements who frequent these forums...

Hey, aren't you the guy who said this:


Deep in my heart I feel that people on my side are misunderstood

...in another thread. So...you don't like it when liberals "misunderstand" you, I believe that was about being racist, but you want to go ahead and assume that all liberals merely want to give violent insurgents therapy. That's rich. T^alk about misunderstanding.


Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now.

Seriously, guy, pull your head out of your ass. Just because we can, and will, continue to point out flaws in this administration, and yes, our military, because they need to be pointed out, doesn't mean that we in any way support what those people did to those two soldiers. I'm sorry that you choose to ignore the fact that we do indeed torture people. And it wasn't just a naked pyramid, or underwear on someone's head. It was rape, it was sodomy, it was dog attacks (yes, not just scaring them, but dog bites), it was forced masturbation (seriously, what the hell were those soldiers thinking?). Did we behead anyone? Not to my knowledge. Does that make it okay for us to act in any way that's completely morally bankrupt? No, it doesn't. As Americans, we're supposed to be better than that. I would think, as a so-called proud American, that you would agree, but it's clear that you're so angry and bent on revenge that you just want to fall into the same morally-base pit that those who practice torture (yes, I'm talking those guys who beheaded those soldiers). It's a sad, sad day when terrorists can turn Americans into savages. I wish you all the luck in life, because you're going to need it.

[Adrenochrome]

Hey, aren't you the guy who said this:


...in another thread. So...you don't like it when liberals "misunderstand" you, I believe that was about being racist, but you want to go ahead and assume that all liberals merely want to give violent insurgents therapy. That's rich. T^alk about misunderstanding.



Seriously, guy, pull your head out of your ass. Just because we can, and will, continue to point out flaws in this administration, and yes, our military, because they need to be pointed out, doesn't mean that we in any way support what those people did to those two soldiers. I'm sorry that you choose to ignore the fact that we do indeed torture people. And it wasn't just a naked pyramid, or underwear on someone's head. It was rape, it was sodomy, it was dog attacks (yes, not just scaring them, but dog bites), it was forced masturbation (seriously, what the hell were those soldiers thinking?). Did we behead anyone? Not to my knowledge. Does that make it okay for us to act in any way that's completely morally bankrupt? No, it doesn't. As Americans, we're supposed to be better than that. I would think, as a so-called proud American, that you would agree, but it's clear that you're so angry and bent on revenge that you just want to fall into the same morally-base pit that those who practice torture (yes, I'm talking those guys who beheaded those soldiers). It's a sad, sad day when terrorists can turn Americans into savages. I wish you all the luck in life, because you're going to need it.


Don't let this kid get to you.......he's just trying to stir sh*t up.

[Mike70]

please don't think i am defending the insurgents. i am not. i have a complete and total repugnance for violence that is born of the fact that i have seen so much of it and know exactly what it does to people. killing people is wrong - period. it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well.

again, i have been very clear in my posts. i am neither supporting nor defending either side. the actions of both sides have gone out of bounds and only further illumninate the complete insanity of war. torturing and killing people is WRONG no matter who does it. if this is something you have a problem understanding, i would suggest that there is some deep, underlying fault in your make up as a person.

the cold blooded murder of civilians (something we seem to be hearing about almost daily in iraq) is competely unacceptable and DOES NOT consistitute an unavoidable consequence of war. civilians getting caught in a cross-fire, bombs going awry, or civilians stepping on landmines are some of the unfortunate things that happen in war. torturing prisoners and taking civilians out of their homes, murdering them , then attempting to cover it up are CRIMES by any definition and should be treated as crimes.

arcades, you clearly lack the intellectual ability and maturity to talk about this on a rational level. your posts are filled with vindictive rhetoric and outright name calling. i am not some school boy on the recess yard - neither are evilned, djfunk, zombie-a-gogo or adreno - who are going to resort to the sorts of 5 year old level antics that you and tju1973 seem to revel in. if neither of you can handle rational, logical arguement without acting like children; i have suggestion - do the adults on this board a favor and go away - go back to your nursery and leave the grown ups alone.


Wow, I come out with that post and it seems every one of you supports the actions of the terrorists and excuses that behavior. "We do it to them!" Our brand of "torture" is a little different, military veteran or no. I do believe I know the people to avoid at this site now.

how is one brand of torture any different than another? torture is torture - period. it morally degrades those who employ it - period. this is one of the most ignorant things i've ever heard.

it is precisely because i am a military vet (10th mountain div 1991-1994) that i am so opposed to war & violence. i have seen the way it affects people and the way that it has affected me. it was a long road for me to come to this. i used to talk s*ite about pacifism. now i realize that i had no idea. i am a conditional pacifist. show me a situation like WWII, where the consequences of not going to war are worse than the war itself and i will support that cause wholeheartedly. iraq is not anything any young person should be asked to sacrifice their life for. iraq was a totally foolish move by a completely foolish and ignorant administration. the war in iraq had nothing to do with war on terror until the US invaded it - that is what made iraq this hotbed of terror activity.

a firm grasp of the english language must not be your strong suit. i have heard no one on this board defend the actions of terrorists - only point out that horrible actions have been taken by both sides and that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of one side without pointing out wrong doing on the other.

please do avoid us. nothing would make us happier. most of us have been coming here for almost 5 years - we are not going away.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Don't let this kid get to you.......he's just trying to stir sh*t up.

Oh, I know. It's frustrating that people can be so blind, and, well, not so very bright. Oh well. Whatchagonnado? :rolleyes: This was another good one:


Our people were chopped to pieces; we made their's wear underwear on their heads.

It's all Us v. Them. Um...alot of people held in these various prisons that we have are not insurgents, are not neccessarily the enemy. Some of them just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. It makes no difference to people like Arcade. They're swarthy, they don't speak English, they must be the enemy, so we can do whatever we like to them. It must be nice to live in a world that's so black and white, where everything is so darn simple. I guess it makes sense though...simple is as simple thinks. ;)

[thxleo]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_bergs_body_found_hanging_from_bridge_may_8_20 04_Jan_21_2005.html

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German.
Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war.
For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.

[bassman]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_bergs_body_found_hanging_from_bridge_may_8_20 04_Jan_21_2005.html

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German.
Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war.
For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.


Couldn't agree more, man. And you topped it all off with a funny! Nice...

[EvilNed]

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German.
Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war.
For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.

The difference isn't that we're not upset. The difference is that some nutballs on this board seem to think that nothing bad should ever happen to the US. Yes, this is a war. Atrocities happen in war! Horrible, horrible things happen in war! When you went into this war, how could you not expect this to happen?

Someone, I think it was Scipio, said earlier that if some foreign nation invaded the US and occupied it, then you wouldn't really follow the Geneva conventions either. That is true, and you need to realize that. These people are ****ed off at the mess the US has caused. Civilians over there are paying for it with their lives everyday. Where is your sympathy for them? Where is your sympathy for the tortured victims of the US?

Nobody here is arguing that this is good. It's bad, it's bad news. But for christ sake, this is a war. And atrocities are being committed by BOTH SIDES. So do your homework. The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts.

[p2501]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_bergs_body_found_hanging_from_bridge_may_8_20 04_Jan_21_2005.html

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German.
Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war.
For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.


seriously what are you 14 now?


We're talking about modern armed conflict, not you and your snivveling REFM buddies playing a round of Rainbow6.

nor is this a discussion of "ZOMG THEEE TERREISTS ARRRE RIGHT< AND DEE US-AYE IS SOOOOO BADDDDD." you twit. did you actually read two thirds of the posts on this thread before excrete-ing out that lincoln log of a post?

no one is proposing an end to the war, nor is anyone stating the insugents are good people. what we were argueing is that fact atrocity begats further atrocity, and that's about it.

while the thoguh may detract from your "US A-OK" jargon, the fact of the matter is the point is both factual, and readily provable.


now go back to Advance war fighter and let the adults talk.


The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts.


it's funny, he strikes me as exactly the sort of guy that would be commiting war crimes, were he over there.


creppy.

[thxleo]

The difference isn't that we're not upset. The difference is that some nutballs on this board seem to think that nothing bad should ever happen to the US. Yes, this is a war. Atrocities happen in war! Horrible, horrible things happen in war! When you went into this war, how could you not expect this to happen?

Someone, I think it was Scipio, said earlier that if some foreign nation invaded the US and occupied it, then you wouldn't really follow the Geneva conventions either. That is true, and you need to realize that. These people are ****ed off at the mess the US has caused. Civilians over there are paying for it with their lives everyday. Where is your sympathy for them? Where is your sympathy for the tortured victims of the US?

Nobody here is arguing that this is good. It's bad, it's bad news. But for christ sake, this is a war. And atrocities are being committed by BOTH SIDES. So do your homework. The last thing we need is some nutjob who thinks US soldiers crap out gold and that the Iraqi are savage beasts.


Thank you for proving my point.


seriously what are you 14 now?


We're talking about modern armed conflict, not you and your snivveling REFM buddies playing a round of Rainbow6.

nor is this a discussion of "ZOMG THEEE TERREISTS ARRRE RIGHT< AND DEE US-AYE IS SOOOOO BADDDDD." you twit. did you actually read two thirds of the posts on this thread before excrete-ing out that lincoln log of a post?

no one is proposing an end to the war, nor is anyone stating the insugents are good people. what we were argueing is that fact atrocity begats further atrocity, and that's about it.

while the thoguh may detract from your "US A-OK" jargon, the fact of the matter is the point is both factual, and readily provable.


now go back to Advance war fighter and let the adults talk.




it's funny, he strikes me as exactly the sort of guy that would be commiting war crimes, were he over there.


creppy.


Thanks for proving my point as well. By the way, that was quite a mature response from an "adult". How many insults were in that post? Don't actually try to debate my point, just throw out some names and feel better about yourself.

[p2501]

Thanks for proving my point as well. By the way, that was quite a mature response from an "adult". How many insults were in that post? Don't actually try to debate my point, just throw out some names and feel better about yourself.


What point? you started out with name calling, then desintergated into some sort of rambling commentary on "well what would you do?". there really wasn't a direct point to respond to.

As for my hostility, you the one who came in acting like a jackass. and it goes goes to underline my original point of one attitude begats another one.


as for Iraq. here's a start.

1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined.

2) turn training and daily operations of the Iraqi police of to US SOG teams. training indegenous forces is what they excell at.

3) pruge Shia and other extremists from civil service

4) close then militarize the Iraq Syria border. not in a pussy sense. airmer overflights, constant predator surveilnce. and deploy marines along the border in observational search and destroy parties.


that's a start.


would you like to bitch some more?

[thxleo]

What point? you started out with name calling, then desintergated into some sort of rambling commentary on "well what would you do?". there really wasn't a direct point to respond to.

As for my hostility, you the one who came in acting like a jackass. and it goes goes to underline my original point of one attitude begats another one.


as for Iraq. here's a start.

1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined.

2) turn training and daily operations of the Iraqi police of to US SOG teams. training indegenous forces is what they excell at.

3) pruge Shia and other extremists from civil service

4) close then militarize the Iraq Syria border. not in a pussy sense. airmer overflights, constant predator surveilnce. and deploy marines along the border in observational search and destroy parties.


that's a start.


would you like to bitch some more?


Good lord man! What are you doing wasting time on a zombie message board? You should be out in front of the Pentagon with your plan in hand! Who would have thought that the ultimate plan for the answer to the Iraq War was hidden in the forums of HPOTD?

[MapMan]

1) remove reservists unit from the battlefeild. they're ill trained, itchy on the trigger, and poorly discipliined.



I disagree about the National Guard and Reserves. Most are prior service that probably had to pick up a second MOS. Imagine having a turret mechanic who is now a Scout on a M3. Quite handy to have. Also you have a nice selection of civilian occupations to use. I don't know very many grunts or tankers that are electricians, carpenters ect. It is a team effort. The person processing the paycheck or getting the mail is just as important as the idiot like me that selected the rifle and 100+ pounds of crap needed to sustain life in the field.

A majority of the war crimes being reported have been by full time military.
Except Abu Grahb.

What MOS were you ?

[Mike70]

Wanna know the difference between those animals over there and the U.S.? Take a look at these photos...http://www.ogrish.com/archives/nick_bergs_body_found_hanging_from_bridge_may_8_20 04_Jan_21_2005.html

Some of the members on this board, and you know who you are, are so far gone there is no hope for you. You worship at the altar of creeps like Ward Churchill, Cindy Sheehan, Michael Moore, and the Dixie Chicks. Yet you tear apart those who believe in their country and their military. Thank God there was no internet or 24 hour liberal media in the days of WWII. We would all be speaking German.
Those animals have killed 2500 U.S. soldiers since the start of the war. It took them 3 years to get to that number. It took them 24 hours back in September of 2001 to kill 3000 citizens. We have taken the war to their backyard, instead of ours. Who does not understand that? This is a war.
For all of those bleeding hearts out there, here is a question for you. What would you do to fight terrorism? What magic plan do you have that the U.S. just can't seem to figure out? You all seem to have incredibly arrogant and smart ass answers for those you disagree with on this message board, what would you do to solve this problem then? Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.

yet another post from the hypocrisy is us dept. listen little boy, no one on here has said anything about worshiping at the alter of idiots like ward churchill or michael moore. that is ad hominem invective designed to distract from the real issue here. unless someone comes straight out and says that they are supporters of these two, you have no basis for making such an outrageous declaration. you are creating accusations that you have absolutely no basis for. nobody on here has a "bleeding heart" either. what many of us have tried to do is point out that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of insurgents when the us armed forces are murdering civilians in cold blood. there is ample evidence that this is, in fact, going on. the courts-martial and other investigations into US actions prove this.

i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about.

my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts.

we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it.

the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq.

as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military.

[mista_mo]

Other than just sit back and do nothing that is. Maybe you should move to Canada or France? You might feel more at home.

Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan.

Do some research dude. Canada is a major player in the war on terrorism, and I find it insulting to say the least that you would say something so ignorant and plainly idiotic. Grow up, start looking at the broader picture of things.

oh, and Scipio, don't worry bout it, misunderstanding on my part buddy :)

[p2501]

Good lord man! What are you doing wasting time on a zombie message board? You should be out in front of the Pentagon with your plan in hand! Who would have thought that the ultimate plan for the answer to the Iraq War was hidden in the forums of HPOTD?


exactly my point, your looking for a one shot fixall and there isn't one.

[zombie04]

Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan.



As far as I'm concerned, Canada is a good country with good people. However I'd have to disagree with your opinion on Bush and Iraq, but it's your opinion so I respect it. But I guess we can both agree that this war needs to end not because Bush is involved but because war in general is dehumanizing and kills us all.

[p2501]

I disagree about the National Guard and Reserves. Most are prior service that probably had to pick up a second MOS. Imagine having a turret mechanic who is now a Scout on a M3. Quite handy to have. Also you have a nice selection of civilian occupations to use. I don't know very many grunts or tankers that are electricians, carpenters ect. It is a team effort. The person processing the paycheck or getting the mail is just as important as the idiot like me that selected the rifle and 100+ pounds of crap needed to sustain life in the field.

A majority of the war crimes being reported have been by full time military.
Except Abu Grahb.

What MOS were you ?



i'm with taht, and i should ahve defenitely speficied that not ALL NG units fall into my classification. but for every fromer full timer you get some ass hat that wants to be rambo. and unfortunately that's all it takes.

I had no MOS, couldn't go on account of my right leg. when i was 16 i stopped a line backers head with my knee cap. that joint now has the over strength of wet angel hair. So when your 17 and your told you'll never get that airborn tab, but you can always be a mechanic the romance of the miltary kinda died for me.

[MapMan]

Yes you would have had a MOS, a military occupational specialty. Airborne is a designation at the end of your MOS for example I am a 19D (Armored Reconnaissance Specialist) I have several additional skill identifiers D3 for Bradley fighting vehicle operations, P for parachutist and G for Ranger.

What rank were you when you got out ?

Wat uint were you with in Somalia ?

We might have ate the same dirt.

Actually I meant for this to go to SCIPIO70.

I am old and feeble.

[thxleo]

yet another post from the hypocrisy is us dept. listen little boy, no one on here has said anything about worshiping at the alter of idiots like ward churchill or michael moore. that is ad hominem invective designed to distract from the real issue here. unless someone comes straight out and says that they are supporters of these two, you have no basis for making such an outrageous declaration. you are creating accusations that you have absolutely no basis for. nobody on here has a "bleeding heart" either. what many of us have tried to do is point out that it is hypocritical to damn the actions of insurgents when the us armed forces are murdering civilians in cold blood. there is ample evidence that this is, in fact, going on. the courts-martial and other investigations into US actions prove this.

i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about.

my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts.

we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it.

the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq.

as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military.


Again, a perfect example of the far left mentality. If someone says something you disagree with then just call them some names(little boy?). You and several other "members" here are fantastic at that.
You served in the military? Well I respect that a great deal. I know you have experienced things that alot of us, my self included, could not understand. But that does not make my point any less valid. And I will argue with you that the "atrocities" that US soldiers have committed pale in comparison to the acts that the "animals" do on a daily basis. Comparing them is a joke. And you know it.


Sit back and do nothing like Canada? Hey guy..really..grow the f*ck up. We have committed what..2000 troops to AFGANISTAN (which is the real problem, or at least it was til captain f*ck tits (aka bush) actually made Iraq into a major terrorist threat). Our government was smart in staying out of Iraq, and going and staying in Afganistan.

Do some research dude. Canada is a major player in the war on terrorism, and I find it insulting to say the least that you would say something so ignorant and plainly idiotic. Grow up, start looking at the broader picture of things.

oh, and Scipio, don't worry bout it, misunderstanding on my part buddy :)


Canada is one of the biggest hotbeds of terror in the world. Slack immigration laws make sure of that...dude.
And by the way, captain f*ck tits? What kind of half ass insult is that? Bush is the captain of f***ing tits? Huh?

[Arcades057]

It's good for me to find common ground with people that I usually argue with. Thxleo, it always surprised me how alike our politics are, but how much we argue on everything else.

We can boil it all down to this, I think. You have one side that recoils in anger and disgust at photographs like those of Nick Berg. These (and I am among them) find solace in videos like the one of a bomb striking Zarqawi's hideout. We are the ones who wept on 9/11 and think that the enemy is anyone who cheered at that attack, even those in our own country. We imagine a world free from terror, much like we imagined a world free from the Evil Empire that was the Soviet Union. When people tell us something can't be done, we list the reasons why it can and prove them wrong. These people think they are correct and have facts that back it up.

The other side is more content to let things be (this seems to be the majority of respondents to this post). So long as something does not affect their everyday activities it could just as easily be happening on the dark side of the moon. They believe that all sides are evil or good, depending on the situation, that evil and good are interchangeable. They feel that their side is correct and sometimes have facts to back it up. Usually they will use the words "morally wrong" to explain why something is incorrect. When backed into a corner by cold hard facts they will resort to namecalling and "you go, girl!" to the many others on their side, for there are always more of those kinds of people than the first.

I've learned throughout my life that as soon as someone resorts to personal attacks and name-calling in an argument it means they've lost the upper hand. I try to refrain from that sort of behavior unless I'm not trying to prove anything (hence my arguments with a certain troll on this site in the past).

I can almost understand the idea of "any torture is the same" but it's not. That's like saying any crime is the same; if you get a speeding ticket it's just as bad as raping a kid. It's not true. Torture and degrading treatment are different. One ends up with two people dead in the way our soldiers were, the other gets you tons, and tons, and tons of TV time from the media.

[Mike70]

Again, a perfect example of the far left mentality. If someone says something you disagree with then just call them some names(little boy?). You and several other "members" here are fantastic at that.
You served in the military? Well I respect that a great deal. I know you have experienced things that alot of us, my self included, could not understand. But that does not make my point any less valid. And I will argue with you that the "atrocities" that US soldiers have committed pale in comparison to the acts that the "animals" do on a daily basis. Comparing them is a joke. And you know it.

i called you a little boy because the mentality that you and others are employing is childish in the extreme and betrays a complete lack of understanding of the central issue here.

i don't care if the actions that US soldiers have taken "pale in comparison" to the insurgents. as for your "and you know it" comment i reject this in its entirety because as i have said before torture and murder are torture and murder- period. doesn't matter who does it. it is utterly wrong.

the point the others and i are trying to make is that US soldiers should never take those actions. murder is murder - period. no matter who it is done by. i see nothing in your post that offers any proof of arguement at all. nothing. you simply cannot respond logically to our arguements with out bringing out the "far left mentality" tag. nowhere in my posts have i referred to the far right or conservatives nor have i labeled any one as such. you see, unlike you i understand that not all conservatives are warmongerers nor do i feel that the conservative "mentality" is invalid simply because i choose not to agree with it.


as for being fantastic at name calling i would refer you back to one of your previous posts where you referred to several of us being supporters of ward churchill, michael moore and the dixie chicks. i do recall that you used the words "bleeding hearts" as well. now who is throwing the names around? if you act like a foolish child, expect to be called and treated like one.

to me you are a little boy - no name calling intended. it is simply how i view both you and arcades. silly little kids safe behind a computer spouting off about things you have absolutely no idea about. if the name fits wear it.

so when are you going to enlist?

[Arcades057]

i am a military vet and was in somalia for 6 months. i don't need to be told what war is all about by some fool who is safely ensconsed behind a computer. i have literally watched people that i care deeply about being killed, maimed and wounded. i have a suggestion for you and arcades - if this is such a bug up your ass, why don't you enlist and do something about it. instead of sounding off on this board as if you actually know what you are talking about.

Can't tell you the amount of times I've heard "why don't you enlist" from someone in this argument. I got two answers a) 3 felonies. I tried once in August of '03, again in January of '04, again in August of '04 and again in November of '04. No dice. Think I wouldn't be there if I could be? Think again, buddy. Answer 2: Do you believe in taking care of others who cannot care for themselves? Why don't you give 100% of your pay to them. Don't keep any for yourself, that would be hypocritical. You care for them, someone else will care for you. Doesn't make much sense, does it? Neither does that "then you join" that I've heard so often. Just because someone sits at a computer and gets this off of their chest does not mean they don't have the heart to be "over there." I got a feeling Lee has the same problem as I do.


my point in all of my posts has been that war is destructive, degrading, and dehumanizing to everyone involved in it - soldiers and civilians alike. i know this from personal experience. i have a deep repugnance for war and violence. NO ONE is supporting the insurgents on here. NO ONE. so stop with the fabrications. stop with inventing statements that simply are not there in any of our posts.

You have to understand that sometimes silence is just as bad. Making excuses is what you were doing when you said "our brand of torture is just as bad as theirs, but..." At that point there's not much to be said other than you are giving tacit approval for their actions as I see it. I can admit that what we did to those Iraqis was wrong and repugnant; but at the same time I understand the difference between being photographed naked and having underwear on your heads, and having your eyes gouged out and your head cut off. I hope you can too.


we have said over and over again that torture is WRONG no matter who employs it. wrong when insurgents do it and wrong when the US does it. we have said over and over that cold-blooded murder is WRONG and CRIMINAL. no matter who does it. in fact it is doubly bad for the US to engage in torture or anything other than a strict adhereance to the geneva and hauge conventions. why? because as an advanced, western nation we should damn well know better and should damn well comport ourselves with more honor and dignity. i will go further- killing other humans is wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it.

Agreed in full. But the part about the US sanctioning it, we have no proof. All we have is the word of those on trial.


the fact that you call people "animals over there" gives me a strong basis for suspicion that you have some sort of racist agenda. i am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and taking your words to apply to the insurgents. yes the insurgents are islamic extremist and a*sholes. there is no doubt about that. the fact remains however that there would be no insurgency if not for this idiotic, ill-conceived invasion of iraq.

The animals of which I speak are not animals, as that would be giving them too much credit. They are less than animals. I'm not speaking of the average Iraqi citizen, but those who engage in murder and torture against those citizens and our own troops. How you could have mistaken that, having been in a place where the enemy was called "skinnies" due to their lack of food is beyond me...


as someone who has seen war and violence up close in somalia i have absolutely no patience for little boys, safely tucked away behind a computer, who think that war and warmongering is somehow "cool" and spout off continuosly about things they have, quite literally no idea of. again, i have a suggestion - put your money where your big mouths are: join the military.

Again you question my manhood. You've been fired at, right? What does the bullet sound like when it goes past your head? Remember the snap? Remember the fact that the sound booms a second later, followed by more and more? Remember the feeling after the first time you were shot at? That giddiness, the shaking, the whooping you and your friends did? Please. You lived a good life, joined the army, did your time. I lived a bad one, joined the streets, did MY time. I'm done, you're done. You got shot at, I got shot at. You saw death, I saw death. You were "over there," I was over here. Ever been face to face with 4 guys and an automatic in your face? Ever seen someone fire off a spat from a little chopper and then have that gun aimed at you? Ever had to epoxy the bullet holes in your '89 Sterling so your mother didn't find out you were shot at? If I knew you in person I'm sure we'd find that we both had some pretty cool, pretty sad, pretty awful stories to tell. You believe that your time in war was a terrible thing and that war is horrible; I believe the same about my time in my own little war. You'd never go back, you're critical about the war and everything along with it; I'd never touch drugs again, live my life on the straight path and look down on criminals.

We're not that much different, Scipio. Only difference is in the places our experiences took place.

[MapMan]

i'm with taht, and i should ahve defenitely speficied that not ALL NG units fall into my classification. but for every fromer full timer you get some ass hat that wants to be rambo. and unfortunately that's all it takes.

I had no MOS, couldn't go on account of my right leg. when i was 16 i stopped a line backers head with my knee cap. that joint now has the over strength of wet angel hair. So when your 17 and your told you'll never get that airborn tab, but you can always be a mechanic the romance of the miltary kinda died for me.

So you are the arm chair General ? Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ?

[EvilNed]

Thank you for proving my point.

I know you probably think that was a rather smart comment, offering no explanation and just retorting with an arrogant "Thank you for proving my point". Of course, this tells me that you're not quite used to arguing at all. In any debate, you just don't go up and respond with that kind of smartass reply unless you've got a valid point to prove.

Now, before you reply with something along the lines of "Yeah, well your mom is fat." I'd like to ask you what exactly your point is. A key to succesfull arguing is making sure your opponents know what your point is, so please clarify.

Any reply coming from you just insults the opposing posters views. It seems that's all you can do. Don't try to act as if you know what you're talking about: You don't.

[thxleo]

I know you probably think that was a rather smart comment, offering no explanation and just retorting with an arrogant "Thank you for proving my point". Of course, this tells me that you're not quite used to arguing at all. In any debate, you just don't go up and respond with that kind of smartass reply unless you've got a valid point to prove.

Now, before you reply with something along the lines of "Yeah, well your mom is fat." I'd like to ask you what exactly your point is. A key to succesfull arguing is making sure your opponents know what your point is, so please clarify.

Any reply coming from you just insults the opposing posters views. It seems that's all you can do. Don't try to act as if you know what you're talking about: You don't.


My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it.
You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think.
I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off.

[Mike70]

My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it.
You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think.
I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off.

and what point would that be exactly? you have stated nothing in the way of facts, experiences, or any rational arguement to back up your position. the only thing you have done is accuse others, who don't agree with your twisted and warped view point of being followers of ward churchill, michael moore, etc., called people bleeding hearts and referred to other people as animals. then you haul out the liberal tag. i am open minded and tolerant. i think these posts have proved that.

since your grasp of english seems to be a bit faulty, i believe what evilned said was that he was against us politics. evilned is a us citizen, like we are, he entitled to an informed opinion about the dangerous, destructive path our country is on. he certainly doesn't need me to defend him but i have to point out the way you are trying to twist words around to fit your own uses. much like in the above post where you ignore my reasoned comments on your position and focus in on the words little boys. this is a hallmark of bad debate and fallacious arguement. my position has been taken apart, so i'll focus in the only thing i have left.

and for arcades feeling that he has an upper hand in this, he must be living in a colon based reality. his position has been utterly demolished in this thread (if you could even call it a position) since he has offered nothing in the way of reasoned arguement or evidence either. he has only stomped his feet about "atrocities", "savagery", and that the US torturing other humans is somehow different than other people torturing americans.

you have been destroyed in this arguement and you would both do well to take the few shreds of dignity you might have left and retire from the field. because i can guarantee you this: evilned and i are out of your league completely. neither of you have he intellectual ability nor the maturity to debate us in any way. i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do.

there used to be a guy on here called grimstories. he and i would engage in some epic battles. he was a worthy opponent. you are not. you see, even though i disagreed with tom about damn near every word he said, he had some intellect and life experiences behind his comments. i respected the man, even though i didn't like him as a person. i cannot say the same about you.

[thxleo]

i called you a little boy because the mentality that you and others are employing is childish in the extreme and betrays a complete lack of understanding of the central issue here.

i don't care if the actions that US soldiers have taken "pale in comparison" to the insurgents. as for your "and you know it" comment i reject this in its entirety because as i have said before torture and murder are torture and murder- period. doesn't matter who does it. it is utterly wrong.

the point the others and i are trying to make is that US soldiers should never take those actions. murder is murder - period. no matter who it is done by. i see nothing in your post that offers any proof of arguement at all. nothing. you simply cannot respond logically to our arguements with out bringing out the "far left mentality" tag. nowhere in my posts have i referred to the far right or conservatives nor have i labeled any one as such. you see, unlike you i understand that not all conservatives are warmongerers nor do i feel that the conservative "mentality" is invalid simply because i choose not to agree with it.


as for being fantastic at name calling i would refer you back to one of your previous posts where you referred to several of us being supporters of ward churchill, michael moore and the dixie chicks. i do recall that you used the words "bleeding hearts" as well. now who is throwing the names around? if you act like a foolish child, expect to be called and treated like one.

to me you are a little boy - no name calling intended. it is simply how i view both you and arcades. silly little kids safe behind a computer spouting off about things you have absolutely no idea about. if the name fits wear it.

so when are you going to enlist?


When am I going to enlist? I can't. When I graduated from high school at 17 I was going to join the Air Force. I had spent three years in ROTC and was going to go in as an E3. I was awarded Distinguished Cadet my sophomore year and Class Leader my junior year. I went to a week long mini boot camp at Parris Island, South Caroina between those two years. I had every intention of being in the military for most of my life. My father was a Green Beret and I had 4 uncles who served in VietNam, one of whom was killed in action(his name is on the wall in Washington, D.C.). I also have migraine headaches. I've had them since I was 5 years old. At the time I was taking regular medication for them. I was told that because of that, I could not join. I would be a liability in the field was what I was told.
Not too long after that, about a year, I got into trouble with the law. Serious trouble. So that sealed any chances of my getting in the military for good. That's why I can't enlist...since you asked so nicely.

[MapMan]

i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do.

A zillion? The term has no well defined mathematical meaning.

What MOS were you ?

[thxleo]

and what point would that be exactly? you have stated nothing in the way of facts, experiences, or any rational arguement to back up your position. the only thing you have done is accuse others, who don't agree with your twisted and warped view point of being followers of ward churchill, michael moore, etc., called people bleeding hearts and referred to other people as animals. then you haul out the liberal tag. i am open minded and tolerant. i think these posts have proved that.

since your grasp of english seems to be a bit faulty, i believe what evilned said was that he was against us politics. evilned is a us citizen, like we are, he entitled to an informed opinion about the dangerous, destructive path our country is on. he certainly doesn't need me to defend him but i have to point out the way you are trying to twist words around to fit your own uses. much like in the above post where you ignore my reasoned comments on your position and focus in on the words little boys. this is a hallmark of bad debate and fallacious arguement. my position has been taken apart, so i'll focus in the only thing i have left.

and for arcades feeling that he has an upper hand in this, he must be living in a colon based reality. his position has been utterly demolished in this thread (if you could even call it a position) since he has offered nothing in the way of reasoned arguement or evidence either. he has only stomped his feet about "atrocities", "savagery", and that the US torturing other humans is somehow different than other people torturing americans.

you have been destroyed in this arguement and you would both do well to take the few shreds of dignity you might have left and retire from the field. because i can guarantee you this: evilned and i are out of your league completely. neither of you have he intellectual ability nor the maturity to debate us in any way. i can't speak for evilned on this point but i will assure you that i am far better educated, have far more life experience and have a zillion times more experience at this sort of thing than you do.

there used to be a guy on here called grimstories. he and i would engage in some epic battles. he was a worthy opponent. you are not. you see, even though i disagreed with tom about damn near every word he said, he had some intellect and life experiences behind his comments. i respected the man, even though i didn't like him as a person. i cannot say the same about you.


I've been destroyed in this arguement? Did you type that with a straight face Darth? You and "Evilned" are out of my league? God I would hope so. And my english is not faulty. "Evilned" stated he was against the U.S. How am I twisting that?
Your entire post above is funny as hell. Thank you.

[Mike70]

A zillion? The term has no well defined mathematical meaning.

What MOS were you ?


how bout a googleplex then. math has never been my strong point:)

MOS 11B if you don't know what 11B is just reply. don't want to insult your intel if you do by telling you something you already know.


I've been destroyed in this arguement? Did you type that with a straight face Darth? You and "Evilned" are out of my league? God I would hope so. And my english is not faulty. "Evilned" stated he was against the U.S. How am I twisting that?
Your entire post above is funny as hell. Thank you.

man you have to take the prize as least mature board member. yes you have been destroyed. i am out of your league intellectually and in terms of maturity. you know nothing about how to debate or argue a point. again you have said nothing at all.

[MapMan]

MOS 11B

Who were you with in Somolia ?

[Mike70]

Who were you with in Somolia ?

HHC 10th mtn div g3 operations. i was in the army from april 91 to july 94. fort drum, ny. i was in somalia from 11 dec 92 to 6 may 93. stationed at what used to be the us embassy compound in mogadishu, which was right across from what used to be the university.

[Arcades057]

As soon as someone starts talking about how smart they are, you know they really ARE that smart. Debating is not constantly challenging the intelligence and spelling of someone else, Scipio, it's actually using facts to back an argument. You are using your own personal experiences to back your claims that all torture is equal; I am pointing out the difference between being dismembered and being photographed naked. Again you miss that point.

Because someone is or was with the military does not mean that that individual has an intimate knowledge about the military. Because I worked for Subway does not mean that I can tell you everything about it. You claim that the gubbment is behind the torturel show proof. I don't mean an article in the news where those on trial claim it, I mean proof positive, like the WMDs we found in Iraq, like the soldiers' dismembered bodies being found.

And Ned DID say he was against the US, remember?


While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR.

It's good to have a view on a subject that you know about. It's even better to respect the views of others and not resort to childish namecalling and "I'msmarter than you are." Besides, my dad was a Vietnam veteran and he could beat up yours. ;)

[EvilNed]

My point was stated in my original post. Loud and clear. Perhaps you should go back and read it.
You stated that you are against the U.S. Do I need to know anything else about you and your politics? That says it all I think.
I'll say this. One thing that makes me laugh about liberals, like you for example, is how hypocritical you are. You are known for being "open minded" and "tolerant of others"...EXCEPT those that don't believe the way you do. Then the gloves come off.

You stated your post in your original post? Then it shouldn't be too hard to voice it once again, would it. If "Thanks for proving my point." is the best you've got to offer, then I guess I shouldn't feel that threathened by your argumentative skills. :)

I stated that I'm against the U.S politics, yes? So? I assume you were brought up in a very patriotic family and am having trouble thinking outside the box, which is why you keep attacking me. You speak of hypocritics, and yet you're the most aggressive one here. Now that's being hypocritical!

Why don't you tell me what your point was? I mean, it was YOU who brought it up. Why don't you tell me why me being against U.S. politics says it all? Once again, YOU brought it up.

EDIT: Also, I would very much like you to quote me on where I said I was AGAINST THE US... I have no recollection of making such a statement.

I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical.

[Arcades057]

EvilNed, I believe I highlighted the area where you said you were against the US. Here it is again...


While I am against the war, that's not what this is about. I'm not against the US either (well, Ok, so I am. There are many reasons why I despise US politics). But this is what you ASKED for. This is what you should EXPECT. This is WAR.

The bold is the pertinent parts. If that's not what you meant, perhaps it was a gaffe on your part, but I find that hard to believe, seeing as how you'd have had to read it before you sent the post. Beings against the politics of a country I can understand; I'm not all for the limp-wristed strategy we're taking in Iraq for one, and the border issue is a joke, but I have nothing but respect and admiration for my country.


I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical.

It's Guantanamo, Cuba (just being a fact Nazi, please forgive me! :) ) And the only evidence we have to support that torture is being perpetrated is the claims of the detainees. Remember, these detainees are suspected terrorists, not some poor schmo on his way to Mecca, as some of them say. How many people in prisons in America actually say "I did it"? You'd be hard pressed to find one man in prison in the US guilty on his own word. We expect the terrorists to be straightforward? You can't admit the possibility that this just might be a tactic to further damage the credibility of the US?

They can't beat us in a war, so what does that leave them?

[EvilNed]

EvilNed, I believe I highlighted the area where you said you were against the US. Here it is again...

It's Guantanamo, Cuba (just being a fact Nazi, please forgive me! :) ) And the only evidence we have to support that torture is being perpetrated is the claims of the detainees. Remember, these detainees are suspected terrorists, not some poor schmo on his way to Mecca, as some of them say. How many people in prisons in America actually say "I did it"? You'd be hard pressed to find one man in prison in the US guilty on his own word. We expect the terrorists to be straightforward? You can't admit the possibility that this just might be a tactic to further damage the credibility of the US?

They can't beat us in a war, so what does that leave them?

If one read the sentence through, it's clear I am against US policy. And yes, I despise it, as anyone with an interest in the wellfare of the common human being should. I don't just despise the republican, but the democrats for wanting to pull out of Iraq and just leave behind the complete and utter mess that they have created. US politics, I am against. The US? No. I explained in another post that there's nothing wrong with the US ideals or people.

There was a Swede, with arab roots, who was at Guantanamo. Do you know why he was there? Becuase he was related to a suspected terrorist. He was tortured and interrogated, yet never given a trial. Infact, none of these are. They are merely suspected to being terrorists. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty bull**** to me.

As for your last statement, ever hear of Vietnam?

[thxleo]

It's good for me to find common ground with people that I usually argue with. Thxleo, it always surprised me how alike our politics are, but how much we argue on everything else.




Funny isn't it?


You stated your post in your original post? Then it shouldn't be too hard to voice it once again, would it. If "Thanks for proving my point." is the best you've got to offer, then I guess I shouldn't feel that threathened by your argumentative skills. :)

I stated that I'm against the U.S politics, yes? So? I assume you were brought up in a very patriotic family and am having trouble thinking outside the box, which is why you keep attacking me. You speak of hypocritics, and yet you're the most aggressive one here. Now that's being hypocritical!

Why don't you tell me what your point was? I mean, it was YOU who brought it up. Why don't you tell me why me being against U.S. politics says it all? Once again, YOU brought it up.

EDIT: Also, I would very much like you to quote me on where I said I was AGAINST THE US... I have no recollection of making such a statement.

I would also like to point out to Arcades that the psychological and physical torture conducted on iraqi prisoners (and innocents at Gautemala) goes way beyond just being photographed naked. They are molested, often quite harshly, 24/7 in various ways. They aren't being put in Iron Maidens, but psychological torture is as bad as physical.


Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things. That is simply bull****. I posted a link with pictures of Nick Berg's body as an example. Are you gonna reply asking me what my point is again?

[EvilNed]

Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things.

Is it just me, or did your argument loose all your credibility right there? Guess someone hasn't been paying attention...

[MinionZombie]

To run with your atrocity theme, I find it (I'm speaking generally, over the last couple of years) quite strange that there's so much shock and surprise that atrocities happen in a time of war. Yes, they bloody well shouldn't happen (like that family being massacred the other week in Iraq), but they sadly do - but it's not just "us" doing them - and by that we mean soldiers who are plunged into a situation us civies could never understand or appreciate on their heightened level. These guys are chucked out into a foreign country in the heat and the sand with half a civilisation baying for your execution on a daily basis, like in Vietnam, things are going to get sticky and the situation is going to boil over in the chaos of war.

Convenient that the liberal media has completely forgotten about the mass graves, the factory filled with human bones, the rape rooms, the torture rooms and so on and so forth - the atrocities that Saddam's government commited.

Which reminds me - here in the UK we're got this asshat 'politician' (ex LABOUR, now leader of "the respect party" - i.e. sad loner twat on his own) called george galloway (who doesn't deserve capital letters) - anyway, this guy was videotaped schmoozing and pressing the flesh all "happy to meet you again" with that sick rapist, toturing Saddam son, Uday (sp?). *shudders* Sickening.

Now of course, making the hop, skip & jump from 9/11 to Iraq was quite a stretch - my view is that Saddam should have been booted the f*ck out of Iraq in the first Gulf War. If it hadn't have been for the pansy ass UN, and if Thatcher had still been around, that maniac would have been ousted. Who knows, all the people tortured, raped and killed in that 13-ish years might very well have been alive and well today if the situation had been sorted out when it should have been.

Another thing that p*sses me off, people who shout "war for oil!". Now, while this is indeed not desireable, could you imagine a Western world starved of oil? Our society depends on it endlessly, if it was gone there'd be utter chaos! At least one good thing comes from high fuel prices over in the states (which are of course, still half the price of what we have here in the UK daily :rockbrow:), is that we're starting to see some movement towards more sustainable sources of fuel - this ethanol/corn thingymajig which has only 15% petrol/oil in the mix itself.

*sigh*

I'll end my rant...time to check out that "Prey" demo.

[EvilNed]

Egypt. Syria. They've got oil. They torture victims. Why not attack them? Because we're on friendly terms with them, that's why.

[p2501]

Another thing that p*sses me off, people who shout "war for oil!". Now, while this is indeed not desireable, could you imagine a Western world starved of oil? Our society depends on it endlessly, if it was gone there'd be utter chaos! At least one good thing comes from high fuel prices over in the states (which are of course, still half the price of what we have here in the UK daily :rockbrow:), is that we're starting to see some movement towards more sustainable sources of fuel - this ethanol/corn thingymajig which has only 15% petrol/oil in the mix itself.

*sigh*

I'll end my rant...time to check out that "Prey" demo.


It seems and maybe that just do the the lack of decent reporting, that our task in Iraq has gone from and underlying element of humanitarian. to urban patrols, area confinement and check point security. From what i've been reading, the Army coprs of engineers, doesn't even have regular miltary security, they've had to contract out to a british PMC in order to security convoy protection.

So, while i'm for the war, actually ****ing fixing Iraq, and providing the Kurds/Shias a stable country to reside in, it seems we've strayed from doing that unless it co-encides with a Haliburton contract. Having said all that it's distinctly possible that it's an issue of the press reporting over dramatized accounts while suppressing actual progress. One important thing to note is ALOT of these bombings and attacks are infact taking place in localized areas, so it's most certainly not as if all of Iraq is operating in constant suicide bombing ****efest we're constantly hearing about.


and how is the "Prey" demo.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapMan
Who were you with in Somolia ?

HHC 10th mtn div g3 operations. i was in the army from april 91 to july 94. fort drum, ny. i was in somalia from 11 dec 92 to 6 may 93. stationed at what used to be the us embassy compound in mogadishu, which was right across from what used to be the university.

It's funny when people who wildly support the troops force vetrens to prove their merit. A real hoot.


Originally Posted by thxleo
Since you are deaf, here it is again... WE ARE NOT THE SAME AS THEM! Even though you, and people who think like you, say we are and that we do just as many bad things.

I guess that whole "human being" thing doesn't count, eh? I'm pretty sure we all look the same when we're blown to ****. Blood's red, however you look at it.

[MapMan]

It's funny when people who wildly support the troops force vetrens to prove their merit. A real hoot.


Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about.

[p2501]

So you are the arm chair General ? Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ?


umm, my Grandfather was in Army recon during WW2. my father ran a gun boat up and down Laos, two of my friends in additon to my shooting instructor were SEALs, and my best friend served for eight years in various postions in the Marines. he was on the SAR team that pulled Scott O'Grady's crying ass out of Bosnia in the 90's.

so don't lecture me like i've no idea what i'm talking about. I know some of my ****, so suss out who your calling a REMF.

If were going the Arm chair general route, let talk about Arcades who was advocating deploying Tactical nukes on a confined urban populous.

we cool now?:p

[MapMan]

umm, my Grandfather was in Army recon during WW2. my father ran a gun boat up and down Laos, two of my friends in additon to my shooting instructor were SEALs, and my best friend served for eight years in various postions in the Marines. he was on the SAR team that pulled Scott O'Grady's crying ass out of Bosnia in the 90's. we cool now?:p

I am cool with everybody. My father makes aspahlt equipment. I don't have a clue as to what his work day is really like. I never have done that. My cousin is a doctor. I have watched ER. I took biology in college, that dosen't make me a medical expert. I see a guy dressed in a red suit at Christmas.....never mind that guy might actually be real.:D

[p2501]

I am cool with everybody. My father makes aspahlt equipment. I don't have a clue as to what his work day is really like. I never have done that. My cousin is a doctor. I have watched ER. I took biology in college, that dosen't make me a medical expert. I see a guy dressed in a red suit at Christmas.....never mind that guy might actually be real.:D

well he thinks he's real untill the medication kicks in.


point bieng, this wasn't specificly an "well i know military docterine untill TXleo showed up, and well he's kinda..... slo.

the point we were arguing, is during armend conflict atrocites happen. it's an eventuality, and both sides commit them against one another. Arcades was agruing the fact that no matter what the US is always in the right, which is hideously off.

i swear there was a point to some of that....

[MapMan]

We are not always right. Who is ? Anyway, I have been there and done that and would gladly do it again. I came to this forum to talk about zombies. Have fun arguing.:dead:

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Unless you have been around the people and worked with the people that you are talking about how the hell would you know ? If you have not spent any time in the field with troops then you shouldn't talk shi*. How do you know about some hot ass that wants to be Rambo ?


Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about.

You're absolutely right...until I've been around and have worked with a bunch of idiots, I will in the future refrain from commenting on them.

Cheers.

[Exatreides]

I think we can all agree that in war things happen. However I don't think that just because the enemy tortures people we should in response.

If they start suicide bombing....why don't we? America is supposed to be the good guys, supposed to be the guys that make people smile. Not the faction that people run from.

The liberal media? Come on guys, for every CNN corrospondent, theirs a FOX news one right next to them. So in other words, if you think what your watching is to "liberal" change the channel over to 54, or whatever Faux news is for you.

Nukes? Come on Arc, not only would deploying even a small grade weapon in Iraq would not only kill civilans and embolden the ENTIRE Iraqi population against us, have the world begin UN led embargo's against OUR country, it would give Iran justifcation to build their own weapon.

What do you suggest about them? Nuke em to?

[Adrenochrome]

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/q/qt-p-nd.gif

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down


I've heard this song all my life. The ONE line that has always stood out is,.... "Everybody look what's going down." - Words of wisdom, my friends.



peace...

[coma]

Guantanamo Bay, where dozens of people are held in prison,

Actually, Its hundreds. (700+ at its peak)

There is also another prison, actually in Afghanastan. that has hundreds more.

Just a couple facts.

[Mike70]

Just seeing if we were there at the same time. It's funny when people jump to conclusions about shi* they really know nothing about.

funny you should mention being there at the same time. there was a longtime board member called devil dog - turns out that he and i were in somalia at the time and we were in honduras at the same time. small world sometimes, huh?

sorry i missed your original post about this in the large numbers of posts in this thread. i was a specialist when i got out. spent most of my time in the G3 operations branch of the 10th mountain division. also served in fla after hurricane andrew and went on the usual training exs - like NTC, etc.

i didn't think you were trying to make me prove anything. in fact i thought that you were indeed trying to see if we were there at the same time.

who were you with?


As soon as someone starts talking about how smart they are, you know they really ARE that smart. Debating is not constantly challenging the intelligence and spelling of someone else, Scipio, it's actually using facts to back an argument. You are using your own personal experiences to back your claims that all torture is equal; I am pointing out the difference between being dismembered and being photographed naked. Again you miss that point.

Because someone is or was with the military does not mean that that individual has an intimate knowledge about the military. Because I worked for Subway does not mean that I can tell you everything about it. You claim that the gubbment is behind the torturel show proof. I don't mean an article in the news where those on trial claim it, I mean proof positive, like the WMDs we found in Iraq, like the soldiers' dismembered bodies being found.

And Ned DID say he was against the US, remember?

It's good to have a view on a subject that you know about. It's even better to respect the views of others and not resort to childish namecalling and "I'msmarter than you are." Besides, my dad was a Vietnam veteran and he could beat up yours. ;)


well first of all i think you have proved in these highly illogical, fallacy ridden posts that you that know nothing about the principles of debate or reasoned arguement. your words - suggesting using nukes, for example, make be believe that you are limited in critical thinking in particular and intellectual skills in general. i have never said that i was smarter than anyone. i said you lack the intellectual skill to engage in a debate with me. which i think that your posts have more than proved. there is a difference between smarts and intellect. i also said that i probably have more of an education (change that i definitely have a better education than you), more life skill and more experience at reasoned debate.

i have never claimed to be a military expert. i have said over and over that my personal experience of war and violence have given a deep, deep repugnance for both. i understand what war does to people on both sides because i have seen it up close.

i am not using personal experiences to claim all torture is equal. i have maintained over and over again that all torture, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it.

i have never said the government was behind torture. i have never maintained that it was some sort of official policy. the US is only sponsoring it by extention because the soldiers engaged in it are representing the US. the lack of an official policy is most likely the reason that such acts are being committed by US soldiers. i said all use of torture was wrong - no matter who employed and that killing was wrong - period. wrong when terrorists do it and wrong when the US govt. sponsors it by engaging in war and sending soldiers off without clear cut directives and guidance on how to behave.

again you are engaging in one of the hallmarks of fallacious thinking and bad debate. you cannot rationally argue your point so you are seizing on any little thing, attempting to blow it up, totally out of proportion, and make it look like it proves some point you are trying to make.

as for name calling, i think you should take a long hard look at your and tlxleo's posts before you throw any stones about this.

i maintain that the two of you are, in fact, little boys. no name calling intended - that is simply how i view the two of you. immature and trite without a clue in the world as to what you are speaking of.

[MinionZombie]

True, that is the thing, it's reported by the liberal, pandering media *cough* BBC *cough* that everyone in Iraq hates all of us, but we never see the good that has come of getting rid of Saddam. We never see that stuff and the bad that Saddam did is skimmed over, even his trial has turned into a farce. Not at all the serious proceedings for someone who is a genocidal maniac...

Have a goosey gander in the Games forum for my views on the Prey demo...

[thxleo]

point bieng, this wasn't specificly an "well i know military docterine untill TXleo showed up, and well he's kinda..... slo.




I'm "slo" because I disagree with you? Okay. And it's THXLEO...not TXleo.
You sure do have alot of grammatical errors for such a superior being by the way.
Also, half of the suggestions you threw out as a way to improve things in Iraq I heard Joe Biden spewing on MSNBC. Nice try though.




as for name calling, i think you should take a long hard look at your and tlxleo's posts before you throw any stones about this.

i maintain that the two of you are, in fact, little boys. no name calling intended - that is simply how i view the two of you. immature and trite without a clue in the world as to what you are speaking of.



Name calling? What exactly have I said that was so horrible? I called you Darth, yet you call people "little boys". Maybe you should practice what you preach? How about this then...All name calling, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it.
Listening to you talk reminds me ALOT of Timothy McVeigh. Maybe you should have never served in the military. Sounds like it left you a sympathizer of the enemy. That is scary.
And I'll tell you like I told one of the other members of the peanut gallery, it's THXLEO. Not tlxleo.

[Arcades057]

Well, Scipio, since you are so above our level of skill in debate as you put it, why even bother to argue? I', sure since you found yourself evenly matched with GrimStories (an admitted racist, bigoted, anti-gay, anti-anyting-not-him, Asian) you must really be up there in the brains department.

I'm still waiting to find a point that you are debating, beyond the fact that torture is wrong, upon which we agree, and having been in the military 10 years ago somehow means you know more about the current military situation than someone watching the news, knowing folks who are there, doing online searches, and having common sense enough to read between the lines.

You have apparently learned your debating "skills" from GrimStories: When you're losing, start hurling insults. Let's review my points for the slow ones...

1) No, I am not advocating nuclear war, that was something called "hyperbole." I felt that I had well cleared that up in my second post in this thread. Don't know the definition?

2) Torture is wrong. There are varying degrees of it, though. What we did to the Iraqis in those pictures was wrong and sick. What the terrorists did to countless Iraqis and coalition personnel was a little different, I say again. Underwear on head does not = cutting off a head. If you can't understand that I don't know what else to say.

3) Because I worked in Subway does not mean that I know everything about the place. Because you were in the Army does not mean you know everything about it. My, an thxleo's, opinion on the matter has just the same weight as yours.

And you mentioned the fact that I lied in my posts. OK, let's see if you've been entirely truthful...


i have never said the government was behind torture. i have never maintained that it was some sort of official policy. the US is only sponsoring it by extention because the soldiers engaged in it are representing the US. the lack of an official policy is most likely the reason that such acts are being committed by US soldiers.

But you said earlier...


it is wrong when terrorist/insurgents do it and it is wrong when the us govt. sponsors it as well.


i have never claimed to be a military expert. i have said over and over that my personal experience of war and violence have given a deep, deep repugnance for both. i understand what war does to people on both sides because i have seen it up close.

This part I do not doubt; however when you are constantly pointing to your military service it makes me think you are saying that my opinion, and the opinions of others who have never served, gives your opinion more weight. That is wrong. Opinionate in one hand and crap in the other, my friend.


again you are engaging in one of the hallmarks of fallacious thinking and bad debate. you cannot rationally argue your point so you are seizing on any little thing, attempting to blow it up, totally out of proportion, and make it look like it proves some point you are trying to make

But yet you have not MADE a point in this whole post, besides what I've outlined, and you backed away from those points. Your points were "all torture is equal...


what about the detainees that have been tortured by US forces? those incidents of torture that led to several court-martials and a world wide stink. what about the soldiers from the 101st that are being charged with the murders & attempted cover up of said murders of several iraqi detainees? what about the massacre at haditha?

Perhaps an unfortunate usage of words, but you had a chance to edit before you posted. But then you said...


i am not using personal experiences to claim all torture is equal. i have maintained over and over again that all torture, no matter who employs it, is wrong and morally degrading to those who do employ it

In every post in this thread you've pointed to your military service to prove your point. Tom Martin AKA GrimStories had a military record, too. Didn't mean he wasn't wrong on half the crap he spouted off, did it? So to recap:

1) You and I both agree that torture is wrong. You believe that ALL torture, even if unproven, is wrong. I say that all PROVEN torture is wrong.

2) We are apparently in agreement that all opinions are equal, unless backed by facts?

That's where we stand. Before you post this time remember that this will be the last congenial post to you if you continue to throw about childish insults. Beyond that, have a good un! :D

[Mike70]

Well, Scipio, since you are so above our level of skill in debate as you put it, why even bother to argue? I', sure since you found yourself evenly matched with GrimStories (an admitted racist, bigoted, anti-gay, anti-anyting-not-him, Asian) you must really be up there in the brains department.

I'm still waiting to find a point that you are debating, beyond the fact that torture is wrong, upon which we agree, and having been in the military 10 years ago somehow means you know more about the current military situation than someone watching the news, knowing folks who are there, doing online searches, and having common sense enough to read between the lines.

You have apparently learned your debating "skills" from GrimStories: When you're losing, start hurling insults. Let's review my points for the slow ones...

1) No, I am not advocating nuclear war, that was something called "hyperbole." I felt that I had well cleared that up in my second post in this thread. Don't know the definition?

2) Torture is wrong. There are varying degrees of it, though. What we did to the Iraqis in those pictures was wrong and sick. What the terrorists did to countless Iraqis and coalition personnel was a little different, I say again. Underwear on head does not = cutting off a head. If you can't understand that I don't know what else to say.

3) Because I worked in Subway does not mean that I know everything about the place. Because you were in the Army does not mean you know everything about it. My, an thxleo's, opinion on the matter has just the same weight as yours.

And you mentioned the fact that I lied in my posts. OK, let's see if you've been entirely truthful...



But you said earlier...





This part I do not doubt; however when you are constantly pointing to your military service it makes me think you are saying that my opinion, and the opinions of others who have never served, gives your opinion more weight. That is wrong. Opinionate in one hand and crap in the other, my friend.



But yet you have not MADE a point in this whole post, besides what I've outlined, and you backed away from those points. Your points were "all torture is equal...



Perhaps an unfortunate usage of words, but you had a chance to edit before you posted. But then you said...



In every post in this thread you've pointed to your military service to prove your point. Tom Martin AKA GrimStories had a military record, too. Didn't mean he wasn't wrong on half the crap he spouted off, did it? So to recap:

1) You and I both agree that torture is wrong. You believe that ALL torture, even if unproven, is wrong. I say that all PROVEN torture is wrong.

2) We are apparently in agreement that all opinions are equal, unless backed by facts?

That's where we stand. Before you post this time remember that this will be the last congenial post to you if you continue to throw about childish insults. Beyond that, have a good un! :D

i learned nothing from grim. i enjoyed battling him precisely because he was a lunatic and a racist. he was the easiest person to set off i have ever seen. deep down i wonder just how much of tom's bull he believed and how much of it was just to get a rise out of people. till tom put thought, in his own crazy ass way, into what he was saying. i respected him because lunacy and psychosis that deep have to be held in awe.

i learned debate on the debate team in school not from anyone on here. where did that come from - oh, that's right you made it up because you have nothing else to say.

hyperbole has NO place in a rational debate and if you understood anything about he principles of arguement you would know that.

again - i said that the us is sponsoring torture by sending soldiers off without clear directives and guidance on how to behave. this seems to be a qualification/clarification to my original post (where i didn't make this clear) that you convienetly are ignoring.

how am i backing off of anything? you are the one who gave me the positive rep point with the comment" i see where you are coming from, no offense for the posts, arcades" sounds like you are the one backing off.

again - i have pointed to my own experience in war to show how i understand, in a way that you clearly don't, just how destructive and dehumanizing war is to everyone involved. i have never pretended to be a military expert. just someone who has experienced war and violence and is repulsed by it.

again- i have never maintained that my military service gives my opinions on anything and everything more weight. however it does give my opinion on what war is and what it does to people more weight because i have seen and experienced it. ever seen children die because they have stepped on a landmine or gotten caught between two groups of somali militia/bandits? every seen a neighborhood destroyed and dead, dying, and seriously wounded people lying in the streets because morons from another clan are lobbing mortar rounds into it? ever seen someone you care about be shot in a conflict that you don't feel is anything worth dying for? i have. i know what war is all about because i have seen it.

again- i pointed those incidents involving us soldiers to show that there are two sides to the atrocities committed in iraq. you were the one complaining about the treatment of us prisoners without even acknowledging the fact that there have been many, many instances of the us military clearly going beyond what is acceptable behavior.

as for this being your last "congenial" post - go ahead and start flaming. it will simply prove how childish you are and i think you would quickly find just how much that sort of behavior is not tolerated on this board.

as an aside - i have had a hell of time getting this post up. this is the third try. don't know why only one sentence of came out before. ladies and gentlemen we are experiencing technical difficulties.

[Arcades057]

So then basically... we are in agreement on everything. And the "debate" and argument came from where?


i learned nothing from grim. i enjoyed battling him precisely because he was a lunatic and a racist. he was the easiest person to set off i have ever seen. deep down i wonder just how much of tom's bull he believed and how much of it was just to get a rise out of people. till tom put thought, in his own crazy ass way, into what he was saying.

This is so very true. It was such a blast seeing the argument he'd get into with people. No one has come close to his level of ability at aggravating seemingly the entire board. I go away for a little while and come back, only to hear DCBURNY chased him away. I chat with him now and again, try to get him to come back, but to no avail.


learned debate on the debate team in school not from anyone on here. where did that come from - oh, that's right you made it up because you have nothing else to say.

I never really graduated high school, so no debate team. Supposedly, at the time (this is in '99 mind you) the diploma I got from a home school was "just as good" as a real one. Apparently not. I didn't make it up, pal, I took it from what you said. It was also my own idea, seeing as how you and Grim used much the same tactics. When someone's winning, just start going "YIP YIP!" (WTF did that mean, by the way?)


hyperbole has NO place in a rational debate and if you understood anything about he principles of arguement you would know that.

I don't know the first thing about writing; yet I wrote a 500+ page book that has yet to generate a negative comment about it. I drive a car, yet I have no idea how an internal combustion engine works...


how am i backing off of anything? you are the one who gave me the positive rep point with the comment" i see where you are coming from, no offense for the posts, arcades" sounds like you are the one backing off.

You misunderstand and take my kindness for weakness. I was trying to avoid the silly little namecalling back and forth with that. I usually try to keep levity in a "debate" or argument, that way neither side goes away angry. Guess you didn't learn that one in debate class.


as for this being your last "congenial" post - go ahead and start flaming. it will simply prove how childish you are and i think you would quickly find just how much that sort of behavior is not tolerated on this board.

No thank you. I'm going to continue keeping it civil, as I feel that doing so will still make us both leave the "debate" without hard feelings.

So to recap: We're in agreement about everything. And:


ever seen someone you care about be shot in a conflict that you don't feel is anything worth dying for?

Yes. I was the one who had to break the news to his mother. Also when two of my friends OD'd, I got to rack down one guy's family and I had been sitting on the couch across from the other one, not knowing he was dead, thinking he was only sleeping. The accident victim I had known for five years. He died on the side of I-95. The first OD victim I had known for about a year; the second I had known since '87. He died in 2001. In my own personal life I have....

1) Seen someone beaten to death by a bouncer.
2) Helped revive a woman from a heroin overdose.
3) Been shot at 2 times.
4) Been stabbed 3 times.
5) Been attacked by roughly 30-50 angry black people in the Delray ghetto.
6) Other things that you'd know about if I knew you in person.

As I said before, on the issue of our own personal experiences you'd see we are a little alike. Only difference is in the places where it happened.

Since we're in agreement, let's agree we should get out of Iraq, unless we're there to fight to win.

[Mike70]

there is a bit of sense here after all.

sorry that you have been stabbed and all that other stuff has gone down that is terrible.

sorry that your homeschooling didn't qualify for a diploma. what state do you live in? they are all different in their rules for home schooling. maybe the person who home schooled you wasn't certified as a teacher? you should look into getting a GED. it is just as good as a diploma.

i wish iraq had never happened. what is going on over there is a blight on the honor of this great country. what is happening to young americans over there has opened up some psychological wounds that i thought were long healed.

i have never thought you were stupid - very few people qualify as outright dumb. i just wanted you to realize that american soldiers should never act in the manner that it seems some of them have in iraq. they should know better.

i have a very different background from you that is for sure. i have a BA in anthropology and a PhD in classical studies from the university of cincinnati. used to teach at UC for a bit. most of my highbrow colleauges thought i was nuts for loving horror movies and zombie movies in particular.

appreciate the fact that you want to keep this civil. one tom on the board was enough. speaking of tom, some of his meltdowns were classic and i wish i had saved the posts, strictly for entertainment value.

601 views of this thread? someone should check that out. that has to be some kind of record.

[EvilNed]

Underwear on their heads? The torture executed by the U.S. goverment goes way beyond that. Imagine being picked on 24/7. Imagine being splashed with cold water in the middle of the night, every night. Imagine never getting any sleep. Imagine being kept in isolation for weeks on end without even knowing why. That's the kind of torture being conducted. It may not look harsh on paper, but believe me, when you are constantly exposed to this you'll crack. You'll get psychological problems for life. You'll never be yourself again.

I'm not here to defend the actions of those brutals who killed Nick Berg. I'm just pretty surprised at how you can ignore this part of the deal. Maybe you didn't know, which is alright. But now you do.

[Zombie-A-GoGo]

Underwear on their heads? The torture executed by the U.S. goverment goes way beyond that.


Each day brings more information about the appalling abuses inflicted upon men and women held by the United States in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere around the world. U.S. forces have used interrogation techniques including hooding, stripping detainees naked, subjecting them to extremes of heat, cold, noise and light, and depriving them of sleep—in violation of the Geneva Conventions and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. This apparently routine infliction of pain, discomfort, and humiliation has expanded in all too many cases into vicious beatings, sexual degradation, sodomy, near drowning, and near asphyxiation. Detainees have died under questionable circumstances while incarcerated.

http://hrw.org/campaigns/torture.htm

[kortick]

well the obvious thing is
the war has divided this country

it is a very unique situation
where there is good and bad on
both sides

we have no control over
what happens

this event has to be played out
to its own ending
we cant withdraw
we cant win quickly

the only sure thing is
there will be much more death, torture, and debates
for a long time to come

things are only gonna get worse from here
it wont be long before china and russia make thier moves
in regards to iran and north korea and taiwan

this is just a prelude....

[Mike70]

well the obvious thing is
the war has divided this country

it is a very unique situation
where there is good and bad on
both sides

we have no control over
what happens

this event has to be played out
to its own ending
we cant withdraw
we cant win quickly

the only sure thing is
there will be much more death, torture, and debates
for a long time to come

things are only gonna get worse from here
it wont be long before china and russia make thier moves
in regards to iran and north korea and taiwan

this is just a prelude....

dude, i love the way you post. you are the mad minstrel of HPOTD.
what meter do you prefer?:D

[Arcades057]

sorry that your homeschooling didn't qualify for a diploma. what state do you live in? they are all different in their rules for home schooling. maybe the person who home schooled you wasn't certified as a teacher? you should look into getting a GED. it is just as good as a diploma.

What I have is just as good as a GED. That was part of what kept me from the Army. The felonies and the GED didn't add up to qualify me and at the time it's not worth going through getting the college credits to join (seeing as I make more money now than I would then, and I'm not worried about being tossed in the brig for refusing to make myself a target). The state was FL; the program was ICS, which is basically you are your own teacher. Even came with the answer guide, so it's no real surprise that it's not honored anymore.


i wish iraq had never happened. what is going on over there is a blight on the honor of this great country. what is happening to young americans over there has opened up some psychological wounds that i thought were long healed.

Agreed. When the Dems call this Vietnam I can't but agree in part. We fought Vietnam with one hand tied behind our backs from a half world away. We're doing the same here. If we were fighting to win the war, it'd be done by now. Instead we're going to expose our soldiers to endless atrition and eventually have a scene like the Huey on the Saigon embassy to remember the war by. Sorry about the wounds, also hope nothing has opened up on this post. Personally I haven't thought about Joe (the second OD) in a year or more.


i have never thought you were stupid - very few people qualify as outright dumb. i just wanted you to realize that american soldiers should never act in the manner that it seems some of them have in iraq. they should know better

When a cop breaks the law and smashes some handcuffed 16 year old kid's face while he's the back of his squadcar, he should face more severe penalties than, say, some angry 17 year old who smashes some other kid's face. The same can be said about the military. If the soldiers in question really did torture ANYONE, they deserve harsh punishment. That soils the image of EVERY American, just as it soils the image of every Iraqi when one act of barbarism is commited.


i have a very different background from you that is for sure. i have a BA in anthropology and a PhD in classical studies from the university of cincinnati. used to teach at UC for a bit. most of my highbrow colleauges thought i was nuts for loving horror movies and zombie movies in particular.

No way, a liberal who taught college?! Kidding, kidding... Seriously though, you have far more patience than I. No way could I teach kids of any age. I have a hard enough time teaching adults how to do their job.


appreciate the fact that you want to keep this civil. one tom on the board was enough. speaking of tom, some of his meltdowns were classic and i wish i had saved the posts, strictly for entertainment value.

I always try keeping things civil; even did with Tom. There are only a few people who truly make me lose my temper and then it's only because a) I find them to be repugnant and lying, or b) just regurgitating stupid things that they heard on Fahrenheir 911 or Bowling for Columbine. And Tom... the endless gun debates, the constant racism (racism against anyone not white from an ASIAN, I tell you), the constant homosexual inuendo... Those were the days...



601 views of this thread? someone should check that out. that has to be some kind of record.

I think we should get some kind of prize for this. You and me kept this going for a while. Neil, you can send me the Ultimate Fighter Season 1 boxed set, please. Email me for my address.... :D