You mean, Penn Jillette lied?

[wayzim]

So, here's the skinny.

I watch Attack of The Show on G4 and for the most part I'm easily amused, this old guy keeping updated on geek lore and gadget pron.
And also - having been amused by Penn & Teller's mock magic shows and debunker Tv series, when Penn Jillette came on AOTS yesterday to hawk a new book, I thought it might be cool.

That was until the subject of religion came up, and Penn actually used a cheap semantic trick on his host to make Black into White.

Here's the two lines of thought concerning God, outside of Blind Faith. One is Atheism (the absolute disbelief in God ) the other is Agnosticism which says that God can not be expressed as an Certainty, only as a possibility.

Here's how Penn reinterpreted it when his host declared himself Agnostic. He says that since Kevin didn't believe God could be proved logically, therefore he didn't believe in God, thus Kevin was really an Atheist.

So, in short, there is not grey area, Probability gets thrown out the window, and you don't have to use the complete definition of a term, only that portion which supports your rather asinine superior view point.

Folks don't have to believe what I do, and I often enjoy a good argument, but this wasn't even close to one of those, and Penn misrepresents the honest skeptic.


Wayne Z

[Danny]

give people a soapbox and they'll say stupid shit, all the time. Hell i heard a conspiracy theorist on a podcast the other day who said "you know how i know im right?, because there are 2 websites that agree with me, over 500 that dont. with that many people disagreeing with me thats irrefutable proof that i am right".
With the internet and the advent of the low budget giving everyone a voice theres more room on the soapbox and a wider net to cast to draw in the morons.

[Mr. Clean]

Here's the two lines of thought concerning God, outside of Blind Faith. One is Atheism (the absolute disbelief in God ) the other is Agnosticism which says that God can not be expressed as an Certainty, only as a possibility.

Here's how Penn reinterpreted it when his host declared himself Agnostic. He says that since Kevin didn't believe God could be proved logically, therefore he didn't believe in God, thus Kevin was really an Atheist.

The only difference is one says anything is possible. Correct? Both deny God's existence. Agnosticism just seems a little more wishy washy on the topic than Atheism. Just my take on your description of the two.

[Danny]

The only difference is one says anything is possible. Correct? Both deny God's existence. Agnosticism just seems a little more wishy washy on the topic than Atheism. Just my take on your description of the two.

its kind of like "i dont want to believe someone controls my fate- but then again i dont want to go to hell if hes listening" :lol:

[Mr. Clean]

its kind of like "i dont want to believe someone controls my fate- but then again i dont want to go to hell if hes listening" :lol:

Kind of how I feel about Aliens :confused:

-- -------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

Clarification: I don't think they exist but I don't want to write them off completely and have fate prove me entirely wrong all the while being millions of light years away from home with a probe up my ass. :eek:

[blind2d]

What did Lewis or whoever say about faith in God? Like, if he's not there, it's still better to believe, just in case he is, something like that?

[BillyRay]

The only difference is one says anything is possible. Correct? Both deny God's existence. Agnosticism just seems a little more wishy washy on the topic than Atheism. Just my take on your description of the two.

You can believe in a supreme universal consciousness without deifying it.

I know I do...

[blind2d]

Is that like Zen? Or... Taoism?

[clanglee]

But isn't calling your only other listed option "Blind Faith" a semantic trick as well? There are a lot of varying degrees in a person's believe or lack of belief in God. You can be a true believer (full on. . .no doubt) or a doubter, or Agnostic, or Athiest, or anything in between. They are just degrees of faith. Jumping right to "Blind" Faith can be just as insulting to some as Penn's comment was to you.. . . . . .just sayin'

[AcesandEights]

Meh. Some people might label me an agnostic. I look at it as smart enough to know I don't know shit, which is a lot smarter than a lot of people who happen to be full of shit.

[blind2d]

I likes Aces. He knows his shit.

[LouCipherr]

The definition of "agnostic" is, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

"a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"

So, technically, doesn't that make an agnostics just lazy or indecisive athiests? :shifty: :D

[AcesandEights]

So, technically, doesn't that make an agnostics just lazy or indecisive athiests? :shifty: :D

Dunno, I've met some vehement....even faithful...atheists, so maybe you have a point.

[clanglee]

So, technically, doesn't that make an agnostics just lazy or indecisive athiests? :shifty: :D
Or maybe just non shifty, non commited, people of faith? ;)

[BillyRay]

The definition of "agnostic" is, as defined by Merriam-Webster:

"a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"

Militant Agnostic: I can't prove God exists and neither can you.

[rongravy]

Militant Agnostic: I can't prove God exists and neither can you.
I work with one of those. When they put up a Nativity scene somewhere here in Arkansas, the athiests had to put up their own anti GAWD scene as close to it as possible, which is just retarded as it wasn't hurting anyone. My coworker was fervently/frothingly all for it. I personally don't care what Jesus freaks do as long as it doesn't infringe on others' rights. Other things do bother me, like going to 3rd world countries and making poor, hungry people sit through their spiel before they can get food in their bellies. I say give them food, and leave the religion up to them if they want it or not. Let your deeds speak for themselves, I say. People will say/agree with anything to get a meal if they're hungry enough.
Some people bitch for all the wrong reasons. I doubt a manger, some kings, a baby, his parents, and some animals are really going to hurt anyone. Some of the stuff athiests do is just over the top.
By the way, everytime I read the thread title I'm like, "Penn Jillette Died?!?!?"
The only thing I liked about the Penn and Teller movie was that Penn kept saying "Hijo de puta!!!" alot.
Otherwise, I'm not a big fan of his. I don't like when people scream what they believe at me.

[LouCipherr]

Some of the stuff athiests do is just over the top.

I think the same thing could be said about the religious people, too. ;)

To each his own, just don't push your belief or non-belief on me, and I will do the same.

Unfortunately, it seems in this realm, both sides seem to jam their ideas down your throat. :duh:

[blind2d]

Lou's post is great. Thank you, Lou.
Whatever happened to that religion about the cosmic spaghetti creature, or whatever?

[LouCipherr]

Lou's post is great. Thank you, Lou.
Whatever happened to that religion about the cosmic spaghetti creature, or whatever?

Thanks, dude. ;)

What you're referring to would be the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (http://www.venganza.org/) - it's still around. :D

Just remember, as a member of that church, you are required to dress like a pirate (i'm not kidding.. :lol:)