Apocalypse like riots in London, Birmingham and Leeds

[AfterMovieDiner]

For all the Brits who come to this forum that are within range of these terrible riots taking place currently in the UK, as an ex-pat myself and a former London resident who had been to the Balham Sainsbury's they are now attacking, I hope you are all safe!

Please stay safe, take care and carry a cricket bat!

[Tricky]

The police need to come down hard on these bastards, chav & gang culture has been getting worse & worse over the past decade, especially in the cities, and its led to this. I dont think it has anything to do with race or government cuts or disaffected youth etc which some commentators are saying, its just a large number of scrotes from all backgrounds who think kicking off like this is a good laugh and makes them look hard, they all like to be involved in petty crime & violence because they think it makes them a respected hardcase, which in the circles they move in it does. I was angry enough about the damage done by the student protesters last year, but this is a whole different ball game. I'd like to see the police & possibly even military move in with water cannon, baton rounds, tear gas & even live rounds if necessary to sort these scum out. Anything else and they just look like they've lost control of the country. Unfortunately all the bleeding hearts, hand wringers, lawyers, community workers and more than likely the EU will make sure that the police cant unleash hell on these shitbags

[slickwilly13]

Personally, I think the police need to grow some balls and start shooting them.

[Danny]

Thank fuck i live in the country.

also, saw a snippet from fox news reporting on it, seemed to think london was a borough of edinburgh, and it was all one giant army called "the charrves" Is that channel actually manned by anyone with an education above middle school level? :lol:

also, the sooner i can move to toronto the better.

[erisi236]

Watching this unfold on TV from the States is just really strange. Seeing roving bands roam the streets looting and burning while what I assume are police just kind of standing around watching it happen, is odd to say the least. This kind of thing would go on for about an hour before they started caving in heads and sicking dogs on us.

Let along the general population at large here...

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f352/erisi236/Nashville-Flood-Looting.jpg

=D

[shootemindehead]

Maybe England should take a leaf out of Syria's book.

[MinionZombie]

It's sickening. Countless innocent people have lost their jobs, their homes, and therefore their entire lives, because of these mindless violent thugs and gangs. Nevermind what a handful of very vocal wishy washy whiners saying (the so-called "progressive majority" who are in fact anything but), and listen to the vast majority of Britons - the people who want to see water canons and army reserve boots on the ground dealing with these twats.

There's no political agenda behind it, government "cuts" (technically it's merely 'a slower rate of expansion', rather disappointingly) have fuck all to do with it, it's got nothing to do with "deprivation", or the death of some guy who seemingly attempted to kill a cop - it's just a bunch of thugs in various areas of London, now Birmingham and Leeds, who see others kicking off and think "I'll have some of that" - they're only interested in violence, destruction, and lining their pockets with tacky-looking trainers and television sets. They're absolute scum that deserve to be dealt with in the harshest way possible - ignore the incessantly vocal minority of wishy washy wimps, and listen to Britain's populace. Gets military boots on the ground and sort these bastards out with water canons, tear gas, the ruddy lot - if some thug gets hurt, well then you should have been at home and not roaming the streets looking to ruin the lives of people in your own bloody community!

Indeed, it's not only the thugs carrying out the acts, it's arsehole 'protesters' who think they're King Shit who need to be dealt with too:
http://www.crashbangwallace.com/2011/08/08/report-jody-mcintyre-for-incitement-to-riot/

Jody McIntyre shot to fame (or notoriety) during the student riots. He garnered a lot of publicity by alleging that the police assaulted him and pushed him out of his wheelchair after he had deliberately placed himself at the front line of the riots in Westminster. Far from being just a run-of-the-mill student, though, it swiftly turned out that he was a hard core hard-left activist who was closely enough involved with the violent disorder that he was apparently part of the group who ended up on the roof of Millbank along with the fire extinguisher-thrower.

In May, the IPPC threw out his complaint on the grounds that the officers on the front line were right to remove him from the violent and turbulent situation in which he had deliberately placed himself.

Any lingering illusion that McIntyre was a victim of circumstance, caught up in trouble by accident, has now been shattered by his Tweeting over the weekend. As well as attending the riots and looting in Brixton and Tottenham, he tweeted urging others to commit violent disorder too:

Be inspired by the scenes in #tottenham, and rise up in your own neighbourhood. 100 people in every area = the way we can beat the feds.

As well as being morally wrong, as far as I can see this tweet may well be a crime. It doesn’t appear to be a joke or satire, and it clearly incites others to copycat what went on in Tottenham, which involved multiple assaults, arson of shops and houses, theft and looting on a huge scale. It even makes clear that he wants this rioting spread in order to overwhelm the capacity of the police, presumably in order to give free rein for this kind of mass crime to happen unchecked.

For McIntyre this might be a political crusade, but for the victims – the people who were hospitalised, the people who lost everything – these riots were a horrific experience, and something no decent person would want to see repeated.

I’ve reported McIntyre to the Metropolitan Police for the offence of incitement to riot – you can do so too by phoning 101 to be connected to the Met’s control room, whether you report McIntyre or another instance of incitement.

[Neil]

What I can't understand is why rubber bullets are not being fired in cases such as this:- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456050

There individuals are all clearly there purely for criminal intent. Indeed a police officer could easily be seriously injured or worse. Have officers armed with rubber bullets, and they need to come down hard on these mindless idiots. They should not be permitted to behave this way in our society! Infact, I'd be happy to see any of those individuals attacking the police deported! I'd pay good money to them in floods of tears as they waving goodbye to their mummy at the docks!

Yes, rubber bullets can seriously injure someone, but I'd rather it was a chav than a police officer.


And finally, watch this to see the quality of the people involved in this 'action':- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14456065

[MinionZombie]

I saw that apparently use of water canons has been "ruled out" by the government - with this, I'm not happy. I'm sure they must be going for the 'softly softly' approach so they don't get labelled as 'Thatcher brutes' or some such utter bollocking nonsense by a bunch of well-to-do class warriors and New Labour dinosaurs (who are so far removed from day-to-day Britain it's like a yawning chasm) ... meanwhile police officers (who are just people doing a job, and indeed, doing one of the toughest jobs on offer) are getting attacked by thugs who are hellbent on arson and looting and nothing more. Disgusting scenes of violence and property damage have filled our screens for 72 hours now - enough was enough after night one - this pussy-footing approach is stupid.

I can understand they don't want to make things worse - but standing back and being softly softly about it all is in fact the worst thing to do - you've got to strike swiftly and firmly and get these thugs and criminals cut down - despite what the BBC News stupidly insist, these aren't "protesters" (they have no political agenda whatsoever), these are looters and thugs causing untold damage to people's lives and people's properties for absolutely no reason at all beyond gangs stealing to fuel their greed. Otherwise more of these gangs and loose canon thugs will see they can get away with it - it's like a wildfire - you've got to contain it hard and fast, otherwise it spreads, and then you're in awful trouble.

I see MPs are being re-called, and COBRA is being assembled, but I am very disappointed to hear that water canons etc, and military personel, aren't being employed (beyond helping fire fighters) ... I mean ffs, stop the thugs before they set fire to everything!

For crying out loud! Get a bloody grip on this mindless destruction! :mad:

[Neil]

The problem with water canons is:-
a) They're not very mobile, and there's not many of them.
b) They give a clear target for groups to fixate/rally around.

I'd advocate rubber bullets though! Any groups seens openly attacking officers should be fair game IMHO!

[MinionZombie]

The problem with water canons is:-
a) They're not very mobile, and there's not many of them.
b) They give a clear target for groups to fixate/rally around.

I'd advocate rubber bullets though! Any groups seens openly attacking officers should be fair game IMHO!

Fair points.

What's more, you see some of these masked thugs getting interview on TV (as if they're innocent bystanders!) and they're claiming racism or bullying - what a load of horseshit - why are they covering their face? If they don't want trouble, why are they on the streets in the midst of a riot (with their faces covered to boot!), and why are they being photographed and videoed breaking into shops to loot, burning cars, lobbing projectiles at police officers etc?!

Seeing footage of seven police officers getting charged by dozens of thugs depresses me - those officers must be terrified and are obviously totally outnumbered - there seems to be a lack of command over the police officers to organise them properly, and indeed to bring in many more officers (apprently 16,000 will be on the streets tonight, after 6,000 last night, so says the PM).

What's even more sickening are the sort of dimwitted arseholes who 'protested' recently about student fees condoning this sort of mindless criminality - they should be ashamed of themselves. Indeed that twat Jody MacIntyre has been reported to the police for inciting rioting and The Independent have taken down his blog (why on earth they gave that arsehole a blog in the first place is beyond me).

-- -------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

Step this way to identify a thug:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/sets/72157627267892973/with/6025489246/

And to show that the vast majority of citizens are law abiding and good hearted people, watch this video to cheer you up a bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCsrcnUy8ao&feature=player_embedded
fCsrcnUy8ao&feature=player_embedded

[LoSTBoY]

The problem with water canons is:-
a) They're not very mobile, and there's not many of them.
b) They give a clear target for groups to fixate/rally around.

I'd advocate rubber bullets though! Any groups seens openly attacking officers should be fair game IMHO!

1400:

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh says plastic bullets - never used before during British disturbances - have been considered as "one of the tactics" available to officers at the riots.

[Neil]

1400:

Deputy Assistant Commissioner Stephen Kavanagh says plastic bullets - never used before during British disturbances - have been considered as "one of the tactics" available to officers at the riots.

Use them! Pleeease! If a gang of individuals attack police officers they need to be taught a lesson IMHO.

[bassman]

Rubber bullets? hrmph. Go "A-Mur-A-Can" and just shoot them with real ammo. They'll think twice if they live to see a next time. :p

[AfterMovieDiner]

Look, I am a liberal, I believe in the democratic process and some of the socialist schemes Britain has in place. I am also anti-violence and needless war however I am also for common sense and it just shows what a wishy washy, fumbling, overly politically correct, confused, scared and backward system we have now in Britain, where on the 4th day of major, violent, destructive rioting and looting they are still only "discussing" this stuff.

A lot of these kids, that's right just mindless idiotic kids, between 13-18 grew up in a system where the police were hampered in doing their job because of ridiculous beaurocratic guides lines and fear from a thin skinned government of being reported in the press as being racist, sexist, blasphemous or of racial profiling and while I completely understand, because of past transgressions, that you can't always trust the police to be pure upholders of moral virtue, the only true form of non-discrimination is to treat every one the same and a criminal, no matter what the colour of their skin, sex or religion should be treated the same but they're not. There is nothing to respect in the police anymore as far as these kids are concerned, nothing to be afraid of and with the rise of us also becoming an overly litigious society, much in the American mould, it means there is even more for the hierarchy to be scared of. So they end up being ineffectual.

These kids are opportunistic idiots hell bent on thuggery and thievery, more or less allowed to roam free as long as there are high enough numbers of them and while I do not advocate the use of violence on anyone because, violence just breeds more violence, at this point they need to be stopped at all costs.

I saw an image of a burning pub/bar in north london the other night, just a building completely engulfed in flame and having worked in such places in my past, they are very often run independently for decades by people with families and their livelihood tied up in their work place, even if owned by a company or brewery. All I could think of is the devastation that has caused one such family, the kind that no amount of insurance will ever be able to replace. Something somebody has worked on for years and years of their life, gone in one needless mindless selfish act and that's just one of 100s. It's depressing, upsetting, unforgivable, with no justification and while I don't want Britain to become a police state, we do need to exert our authority at this time, some how.

Also, when you have a situation as we had recently where the prime minister, high level politicians and police were implicated in a bribery scandal through the Rupert Murdoch/News of the World trial, it sends out a message that the hierarchy in our country are fearful, weak, easily manipulated and bribable, opportunistic criminals themselves. When you have no jobs, no good education, massive social welfare cuts, no hope (we don't have an American Dream, we can all be millionaires, worker ethic, mentality) and absolutely no faith in the leaders and protectors of your country then this is what you get.

Somewhere along the line our basic principles of education, family, decency, manners and respect have fallen by the wayside and Britain is now a place where, in some parts of it, local councils can't even hang Christmas decorations for fear of offending someone. You know, because images of Santa and Snow are religious symbols. That's where stuff like these riots start.... you start chipping away at just basic things through fear and a few years later you have this.
I am not justifying it, I think these thugs are the lowest scum imaginable and should be rounded up with whatever means possible but if politicians are standing around scratching their heads as to why this is happening then they are bigger idiots than I already thought.

[LoSTBoY]

Use them! Pleeease! If a gang of individuals attack police officers they need to be taught a lesson IMHO.

Wish granted:

1434:

A bit more on the Met's confirmation that plastic bullets, or baton rounds to give them their proper name, will be made available to officers. They have been used before in Britain although it is not thought this was in a public order situation.

Will be looking forward to the video footage tomorrow. :evil:

[Exatreides]

From one of the things i read, this was sparked partially by a police killing. if rubber bullets are used and someone is killed (which can happen very easily with rubber bullets) wouldn't that only exacerbate things?

[AfterMovieDiner]

Like I say, violence leads to more violence... not sure of an alternative method at this point though.

We could try the element of surprise route and have the police dress up in tutus and viking helmets
and have them attack the looters by setting lobsters on them.

[MinionZombie]

From one of the things i read, this was sparked partially by a police killing. if rubber bullets are used and someone is killed (which can happen very easily with rubber bullets) wouldn't that only exacerbate things?

A suspected gang member, so I've heard, and possibly something about an operation to deal with illegal firearms (perhaps some sort of gangland arms deal?) ... the story seems to be, from what I've heard anyway, is that the guy tried to kill a police officer and was killed in the struggle.

Regardless of that, or anything that wimpy wishy washy Guardian columnists and well-to-do student 'protesters' might say (i.e. the vast minority), there is no political agenda to this thuggery and looting. (Disclaimer, I'm not lumping you in with that lot Exatreides, I would never be so cruel).

It's a bunch of twats who deserve harsh and swift justice, and they've seen a weak response (up until now at least - I hope) and have just gotten into mob mentality and gone out looting and causing untold amounts of destruction. They're not only ruining countless lives of those around them, but they're also destroying their own areas.

Furthermore, they're not protesters. They have no agenda and no grounds for any sort of moral group stance. They're also not impoverished or deprived - if you can organise a riot via Blackberries, you're not fucking deprived. The only people who are actually truly deprived in this country are the homeless and those living in such shockingly terrible conditions, their experiences are used in horrific examples in the Sociology textbooks like I used to read at A-Level.

And another thing - I'm sick of the few morons interview on television who claim that "da yoof are angry abaht their pozishun in loife 'n' tha' they 'ave no prozpekts n' that" ... you know what, practically fucking everybody in my generation (and on either side of it on the cusps) are suffering from diminished prospects. We won't get a state pension by the time we're old enough. Our degrees are damn near meaningless for the most part. We can't afford to move out of the family home and set up on our own, or alternatively live entirely on our own (i.e. not in a rented house shared with 3 or 4 other people, so you're living like a bloody student far beyond your time when you actually lived like a student). Our job prospects coming out of university or high school or college are nothing like they were 30 or 40 years ago when you could walk straight into a job ... now we've got graduates manning the tills at MacDonald's for fuck sake ... ... I could go on, but the point is, there's an entire generation of young people who are facing diminished or very hard prospects at getting their lives off the ground, but we're not all running around like A Clockwork Orange was a documentary or motivational recruitment film! It's only a handful of c**ts - the same handful of c**ts you'll find in all counties of this nation, and indeed, in all countries of this world.

Ugh ... this horrid nonsense is shameful and disgusting, and I look forward to the bastards responsible getting dealt with harshly, and the first stop are the baton rounds - pulled out at least 24 hours too late in my view, if not 48 hours too late ... ... perhaps even 72 hours too late. We should at least be 24 hours ahead of our current position at this stage. At least.

Plus there's the simple issue of - if you don't want to get injured, get off the bloody streets and don't break the law so abundantly like the grotty little fetid turd that you are has been doing. Plain and simple as. If you break into someone's house, you deserve to receive a golf club or a baseball bat (or a shotgun if you're in America) to the back of the head ... likewise, if you're burning cars, looting shops, and destroying innocent people's lives (in your own community!), then you deserve a kick up the arse with a rocket fired from a tank, straight into the English Channel.

/rant

It must be absolutely awful living in the affected areas. I can't even imagine the worry and stress and fear that so many innocent people must be feeling on their own streets - and in their own homes - right now. :(

[AfterMovieDiner]

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!!!!!!!

Well said!

[Rancid Carcass]

Let's not forget that we have a secet weapon for dealing with situations like these - the British weather! A few nights of rain and they'll soon call it a day, the whole thing will just lose momentum and grind to a halt. Then the police can quietly go about their business of tracking these people down and just when they think they've gotten away with it, they get that knock on the door...

[Tricky]

The problem with water canons is:-
a) They're not very mobile, and there's not many of them.
b) They give a clear target for groups to fixate/rally around.

I'd advocate rubber bullets though! Any groups seens openly attacking officers should be fair game IMHO!


Nah I'd say it works pretty well actually...
h_7CqeFS8fQ

[Arcades057]

Well at least no one in England can defend themselves with firearms so this situation won't result in any actual damage or people being injured. If only America would repeal their silly antiquated 2nd Amendment, then we could join the rest of the civilized world in peace, love, and helplessness in the face of barbarians.

[Mr. Clean]

I actually had a dream the other night about being a shop keeper in London and a group of looters stealing stuff. I pulled a 12 gauge pump out and every time I blasted someone they would say "Oye". I think they meant to say ouch but for whatever reason in the dream they said oye....

[MinionZombie]

Let's not forget that we have a secet weapon for dealing with situations like these - the British weather! A few nights of rain and they'll soon call it a day, the whole thing will just lose momentum and grind to a halt. Then the police can quietly go about their business of tracking these people down and just when they think they've gotten away with it, they get that knock on the door...

Indeed - we could do with a national lashing of rain to piss all over their looting.

I quite liked the headline in The Sun yesterday or today that said "SHOP A MORON" and had a series of pictures of people caught on CCTV with their faces in full-view of the camera. Indeed I've seen pictures on the Guido Fawkes blog of muppets who have laid out their haul and taken pictures of themselves alongside it, gurning like an idiot. I hope all these bell-ends get that chilling knock at the door - what's more, they should have their own possessions confiscated too, to help pay for damages, in addition to large fines and even jail time.

With all this, it makes me wonder - whatever happened to all those people who looted that crashed cargo ship on the English coast a year or two ago?

[JDFP]

Well at least no one in England can defend themselves with firearms so this situation won't result in any actual damage or people being injured. If only America would repeal their silly antiquated 2nd Amendment, then we could join the rest of the civilized world in peace, love, and helplessness in the face of barbarians.

Arcades doesn't post too often, but when he does I have endless amusement and a great laugh at his wonderful posts! Of course, as being someone who leans right-from-center on most things I approve of his messages and love the witty way he states things.

As far as the protestors, in New Orleans after Katrina they made it fairly clear: "If you loot, you will be shot on spot." I think this is the best way of handling looting -- free the authorities to shoot on spot anyone they catch doing it and ask questions later.

As far as guns, if the "powers that be" want to come for any weapons I have they can receive them barrel first. I won't have my Constitutional rights taken away from me without kicking and screaming and firing back. Everyone else I know who lives around me has/have gun(s) and most of them feel the same way. I can't see gun ownership in this nation being stripped as folks here just won't stand for it (especially in the south).

j.p.

[blind2d]

Yep.
...This makes me think of (naturally) Shaun of the Dead.
Why no looters seen in that film? Not very realistic... Just folks running, looking for a place to hole up.
But anyway, yeah, imagine what this situation would be like in the zombocalypse.
Shaun of the Dead 2!

[Tricky]

Good to see people and the police fighting back...

http://i.imgur.com/JCQWV.gif

oaJqBJZFzNQ

Take that you little bastards! :evil:

[Andy]

Ive been watching with interest the new reports since the riots began, and the police shooting that 'preceded' it, all i can say is that ive seen the absolute worse of our country from all sides. Having wacthed the chavy, scummy junkies tearing our cities to bits, the police struggling to cope and the politicans squirming and writhing and generally looking foolish, all i will say is that i am now thoroughly ashamed to be english and embarrassed by the actions of the chavs and the wishy washy fucking spineless slow reaction of the 'authorities'. its showing us up in front of america, europe and the entire world is all its doing.

Cameron has finally ordered in the water cannons and rubber bullets, but god damn its taken him long enough, maybe this is a turning point for us, maybe this will be the start of some real authority and the fear of god finally put into these scumbags but i wouldnt bet on it.

[blind2d]

I can't believe no one's mentioned 'White Riot' yet. I friggin' love that song.

[JDFP]

maybe this will be the start of some real authority and the fear of god finally put into these scumbags but i wouldnt bet on it.

It sounds like you need someone like this who won't put up with bullshit there back in charge again...

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/feb2009/2/4/Margaret_Thatcher_on_screen_pic_Getty_Images_32845 9097.jpg

Somehow I doubt she'd put up with such nonsense if she was still in charge!

j.p.

[Publius]

Somehow I doubt she'd put up with such nonsense if she was still in charge!


Damn straight.

[Exatreides]

How much do you think class conflict has to play into this? You can't dismiss it completely, but it's obvious no Arab Spring. Should it be compared more to the La Riots after Rodney King?

[Andy]

It sounds like you need someone like this who won't put up with bullshit there back in charge again...

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/feb2009/2/4/Margaret_Thatcher_on_screen_pic_Getty_Images_32845 9097.jpg

Somehow I doubt she'd put up with such nonsense if she was still in charge!

j.p.

Good old maggie, she'd have beat these rabid dogs down in a matter of hours :)


How much do you think class conflict has to play into this? You can't dismiss it completely, but it's obvious no Arab Spring. Should it be compared more to the La Riots after Rodney King?

Absolutly nothing at all. If you dont live in england then you dont know how deep and bad the benefits culture goes after a decade of uninterupted labour rule, parents have no work ethic and so are not teaching any to their children all that these riots are is a generation of chavs who think they are owed a living from the state and honestly, genuinely do not beleive they should work for their money. They are targetting 'the man' and 'the rich' but honestly, their destroying hard working people's businesses. They have absolutly no concept of working for what they have.

Think about this next time you vote red and i hold tony blair and his goblin henchman totally responsible for this.

[Tricky]

I cant believe that kids who have blackberry phones, £100 trainers and Xboxes are trying to use poverty as an excuse. Little bastards want to be shipped to Somalia to see what real poverty is...

[Neil]

If you dont live in england then you dont know how deep and bad the benefits culture goes after a decade of uninterupted labour rule, parents have no work ethic and so are not teaching any to their children all that these riots are is a generation of chavs who think they are owed a living from the state and honestly, genuinely do not beleive they should work for their money. They are targetting 'the man' and 'the rich' but honestly, their destroying hard working people's businesses. They have absolutly no concept of working for what they have.

Def +1

[Arcades057]

Good old maggie, she'd have beat these rabid dogs down in a matter of hours :)



Absolutly nothing at all. If you dont live in england then you dont know how deep and bad the benefits culture goes after a decade of uninterupted labour rule, parents have no work ethic and so are not teaching any to their children all that these riots are is a generation of chavs who think they are owed a living from the state and honestly, genuinely do not beleive they should work for their money. They are targetting 'the man' and 'the rich' but honestly, their destroying hard working people's businesses. They have absolutly no concept of working for what they have.

Think about this next time you vote red and i hold tony blair and his goblin henchman totally responsible for this.

We in America, those of us with our eyes and ears open, know all about the benefit culture. Why is gun violence so prevalent in our society? Why is our violent crime so high when compared to other 1st world nations? Why are we the only 1st world nation with the death penalty? The answers to all of those questions go back to what we term the entitlement culture.

I live outside Detroit now. I get to deal with these entitled "people" every day. You'd think that someone on public assistance would drive an older, not-quite-as-nice-car as me, or be a bit less picky about what they eat. Not so.

I guess the only thing we have going for us is the fact that these "people" are concentrated in urban-sprawl areas, so when something like the LA Riots start, they just trash their own neighborhoods. These are not very industrious people over here. They're overweight, lazy f*cks who, for the most part, will send "dey chillens" out to do a little wealth redistribution in the form of TVs, video game systems, and, of course, shoes and beer. These same "people" are smart enough to know not to move their little redistributive aims out of their own shitholes and into common society. Some of us are waiting with bated breath and loaded firearms for an opportunity to do a little "population redistribution" of our own.

The preceding statement is that of an individual who has worked his whole life to provide taxable income which goes to feed and clothe leeches without an ounce of thanks in their heads. It is also the statement of an individual who deals with these leeches every day, and he possesses no white guilt.

[Neil]

^^ Similar to many individuals here, where they simply have got into the habit of expecting society to pay for what they need, and to look after them...

[AcesandEights]

There's so many sublethal options for riot control, it boggles my mind why crime like this is allowed to progress to the point we have seen. I hope some feet are held to the fire following up on this in your country and I hope to god other nations look on and take note of what not to put up with. Perhaps some awareness and policy shifts can come about from this, but only if the public stands up and makes enough noise.

Hope all of you are safe in your respective shires :)

humungusvfrodo.jpg

[Neil]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149


Sir Max Hastings, in an article for the Daily Mail, focused on "a perverted social ethos, which elevates personal freedom to an absolute, and denies the underclass the discipline - tough love - which alone might enable some of its members to escape from the swamp of dependency in which they live".

There is a culture of entitlement in the UK, says David Wilson, professor of criminology at Birmingham City University and a former prison governor.

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers.

"It's not just about a particular class, it permeates all levels of society. When we see politicians claiming for flat-screen TVs and getting jailed for fiddling their expenses, it's clear that young people of all classes aren't being given appropriate leadership."

[shootemindehead]

It sounds like you need someone like this who won't put up with bullshit there back in charge again...

http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/feb2009/2/4/Margaret_Thatcher_on_screen_pic_Getty_Images_32845 9097.jpg

Somehow I doubt she'd put up with such nonsense if she was still in charge!

j.p.

That's the last c**t anybody needs running anything.

[Neil]

This demonstrates perfectly the don't-give-a-damn attitude and the inability to understand that what they're doing is so very profoundly wrong! - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

[Tricky]

That's the last c**t anybody needs running anything.

I'd rather have her than any of the other pocket lining hand wringing incompetant champagne socialist arseholes we've had running the country for the past 20 years...

[MinionZombie]

This demonstrates perfectly the don't-give-a-damn attitude and the inability to understand that what they're doing is so very profoundly wrong! - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

I hope those girls will be getting a knock on their door from the police sometime soon - being that they were drinking looted wine (I wonder if they were underage to boot).

Courts are operating 24 hours a day in some places, and the cops are using info on suspects (CCTV and intel from the public) to track them down and arrest the bastards. It wasn't just bloody kids either, one example was a primary school teacher! :eek: I wonder what he stole, because I wonder if it was really worth getting a criminal record and losing your job - and indeed, being that he's a teacher, ruining his prospects of ever teaching again.

A petition has been transferred to parliament (after getting 100,000 signatures) saying that benefits should be stripped from people who have rioted - I'd have to agree - what's more, their existing possessions should be confiscated as a fine in addition to receiving a criminal record and whatever convictions they get.

[Tricky]

A petition has been transferred to parliament (after getting 100,000 signatures) saying that benefits should be stripped from people who have rioted - I'd have to agree - what's more, their existing possessions should be confiscated as a fine in addition to receiving a criminal record and whatever convictions they get.

The problem is with that, what will they do with them once they've cut off the benefits or evicted them etc? Unless there is something in place they will just go thieving, pushing drugs & mugging again to make up for the lost revenue. We keep getting told the prisons are full so unless they either build more or start deporting people we cant win :( Personally I'd bring back public flogging and build some god awful concrete prisons on the remote Scottish islands to house these kind of scumbags, but not a single person in any position of power be it the current government or the opposition has the spine to do it, so despite all the tough words coming from politicians now (slamming the door after the horse has bolted in my opinion) nothing will change and the "gangsta/chav" will still continue to terrorise the cities & towns for a good long time yet until the hand wringing generation of politicians & social workers are replaced by people with real balls

[Exatreides]

We in America, those of us with our eyes and ears open, know all about the benefit culture. Why is gun violence so prevalent in our society? Why is our violent crime so high when compared to other 1st world nations? Why are we the only 1st world nation with the death penalty? The answers to all of those questions go back to what we term the entitlement culture.

Gun culture is prevalent in America for various reasons. However I'm sure being raised in a culture that has no problem showing multiple murders on TV but freaks out when a nipple slips out has something to do with it.

Your argument would have some weight if other "entitlement cultures" didn't spend grossly more on their poor then America did, yet have significantly reduced amounts of violence.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/total_spending.png


However as you can see the United States Spends significantly less then both Sweeden and Switzerland in Social spending.

However, on average per year the US has a firearm related death rate of 15.22 (out of 100,000) While Sweden has 2.36, and the Swiss have 6.2.

Both of these nations; as the pictures show, have a much higher social spending program then the US. So if your "theory" of the entitlement culture was to blame for this. the Swedes and the Swiss would be slaughtering each other day and night. However since this simply IS NOT happening. Well I think you can put that together.

Oh and Japan is a first world nation and has a death penalty also. So you're wrong on that account



I live outside Detroit now. I get to deal with these entitled "people" every day. You'd think that someone on public assistance would drive an older, not-quite-as-nice-car as me, or be a bit less picky about what they eat. Not so.

Very nice putting "people" in quotes, as if your socioeconomic situation in life some how makes you a better person then people who were oft born into the situation
.
Poor people are constantly bombarded by materialistic imagery for wealth. So combined with the pretty shitty schools in the city of Detroit, the continued worsening economic viability of the region and you have a group of people who while not able to be wealthy, would much rather "appear" to be wealthy. Since the appearance of wealth is what our society demands.

While this video is several years old. It shows a bunch of black people bragging about how much money they have. Not necessarily how they made it, but simply that they have it. The money makes them "hip".
These folks, unlike the rioters in the UK don't have access to an education system that could provide them job skills or the chance to go to higher education. However, they must have these shiny things simply because that's what society is telling them to have.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXDoxxlgNG0




I guess the only thing we have going for us is the fact that these "people" are concentrated in urban-sprawl areas, so when something like the LA Riots start, they just trash their own neighborhoods. These are not very industrious people over here. They're overweight, lazy f*cks who, for the most part, will send "dey chillens" out to do a little wealth redistribution in the form of TVs, video game systems, and, of course, shoes and beer.
Again with the "These people."

Well what area's are they suppose to trash? As you mentioned they often have nice cars. Should they instead drive to the rich area and trash them?

Not very industrious? what a vague generalization. More often then not the poor are the most industrious as they simply have no choice. Turning to selling drugs and other non traditional ways of making a living doesn't make one not industrious, it simply means you are not willing, and oft not able to find a job that can provide the same money. however, in terms of surviving they are vary industrious.(especially in an area like Detroit)


I'm not condoning them selling drugs, I'm just saying that was a very poor choice of words on your part.



"Overyweight lazy f*cks" --- Have you ever tried eating and being poor? Nearly everything is full of fat and starches. A family can either get two little ceasers pizza's for $10 and feed the family, or spend much more and risk not having the gas money to drive to work the next day. When a person is hungry, truly and utterly starving, they will spend what little money they have to stop this, and the poor often only can buy shitty fatty foods.

911
(Map of Obesity in the United States)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_0ybRp_oCk7Q/TRimtrghuII/AAAAAAAADT8/g46bie5bsm4/s1600/Rural2009PovertyCoMap.jpg
(Of Poverty in the US, couldn't get that image link to work)

Hmmm..Ya think they're related?


Stop mistaking America's inner city poor with the people doing the rioting in England, from what I've seen and every one says on here. They're not comparable.



These same "people" are smart enough to know not to move their little redistributive aims out of their own shitholes and into common society. Some of us are waiting with bated breath and loaded firearms for an opportunity to do a little "population redistribution" of our own.
Once again with the "people" thing...Do I really need to dig into that?

So not only do you call them " you people, you fat lazy f*cks," now all the poor live in shitholes too?" If some rich man was saying that about you; with out any understanding of the environment or hardship that you had to overcome in order to just "survive"... Well wouldn't you be a little pissed too?



The preceding statement is that of an individual who has worked his whole life to provide taxable income which goes to feed and clothe leeches without an ounce of thanks in their heads. It is also the statement of an individual who deals with these leeches every day, and he possesses no white guilt.Oh, don't forget to add leaches. We get it, you hate the poor.

Wait wait wait.... "These people x3." "Spending all their money on cars" "Fat lazy f*cks" "leeches" "Detroit" and most importantly "I posses no white guilt." Well, not only was your post highly miss informed and full of right wing dogma, but quite possibly racist.


This post brought to you by a life long member of the lower middle class who has paid taxes since he could work, a serving combat medic in the Army Reserves, and one who deals with these "leeches" whenever I have the opportunity to help.

[SRP76]

So is this bullshit still going on, or what? After what, 5 days? Any rioters should be about worn out from it by now.

[Arcades057]

Exatreides, tl;dr. No point in reading what I know to be your usual equivocating on this subject.

[Exatreides]

Exatreides, tl;dr. No point in reading what I know to be your usual equivocating on this subject.

Cool story bro.

[SRP76]

I don't care about the poor or their problems. I'll tell you straight out. I'm half-assed poor myself, but you don't hear me bitching, moaning, and asking for handouts. And what I really laugh at is the whole "no opportunity" bullshit. Sorry, no. I grew up without a pot to piss in, in the same shithole tenements, eating the same government-issue peanut butter and cheese, going to the same fucking public schools. Gee, I managed to learn while there. I managed to get off the tit and provide for myself. I managed to move into a decent neighborhood in my adult life. And guess what? I never took any shortcuts. THAT'S what dope-pushing and home invasions are - shortcuts. Not "no choice", or inventive. They are the shortcuts of people too lazy or impatient to do things the right way.

The difference is, I decided long ago that I didn't want to endure ghetto living at its finest my whole fucking life. And you know what? It doesn't take a million dollars a year to get off the shitheap. Barely over minimum wage will do it for you. That, and staying out of jail and bullshit activity like that which hampers your OWN progress. Not someone else hampering it. Not the rich. Not anyone but self. But for some reason, millions of people REFUSE to hold themselves accountable, and improve their station in life. Instead, they blame people they perceive as being "oppressors" just because they have more material wealth. Um, maybe they worked for it and deserve it?

The United States isn't Somalia. EVERYONE here has the opportunity to make something of themselves. People should stop acting like fucking it up yourself through dumbassed decisions is somehow "unfair".

[Danny]

I don't care about the poor or their problems. I'll tell you straight out. I'm half-assed poor myself, but you don't hear me bitching, moaning, and asking for handouts. And what I really laugh at is the whole "no opportunity" bullshit. Sorry, no. I grew up without a pot to piss in, in the same shithole tenements, eating the same government-issue peanut butter and cheese, going to the same fucking public schools. Gee, I managed to learn while there. I managed to get off the tit and provide for myself. I managed to move into a decent neighborhood in my adult life. And guess what? I never took any shortcuts. THAT'S what dope-pushing and home invasions are - shortcuts. Not "no choice", or inventive. They are the shortcuts of people too lazy or impatient to do things the right way.

The difference is, I decided long ago that I didn't want to endure ghetto living at its finest my whole fucking life. And you know what? It doesn't take a million dollars a year to get off the shitheap. Barely over minimum wage will do it for you. That, and staying out of jail and bullshit activity like that which hampers your OWN progress. Not someone else hampering it. Not the rich. Not anyone but self. But for some reason, millions of people REFUSE to hold themselves accountable, and improve their station in life. Instead, they blame people they perceive as being "oppressors" just because they have more material wealth. Um, maybe they worked for it and deserve it?

The United States isn't Somalia. EVERYONE here has the opportunity to make something of themselves. People should stop acting like fucking it up yourself through dumbassed decisions is somehow "unfair".

to be honest i dont think wealth is the problem here, i grew up in a very rough estate with just my mom who held down 3 jobs to barely pay to feed and cloth me and my brother and that didnt stop me getting jobs and going through college and university. It wasnt even some 'poor kid trying to prove himself' bullshit. i did it because i wanted to.

Trouble is, regardless of rich or poor, the 1st word countries of the world are becoming increasingly anti-intellectiusim focus'ed. i mean everyones heard the bill hicks joke where he is ridiculed for reading in public. We circle jerk everything and make wiping your ass as equal an achievement as getting a phd and if you show any semblance of intelligence, ingenuity or drive you are like a freak to these people.

Instead people view education as, not something to aspire to gain, but as something equal to 'spoon in your mouth'' comments and if you try and work hard or get into education you are seen in either regard as scum who thinks they are better than the 'yoof' and 'good ole boys' because you have the audacity to make them look bad and get a better quality of life and their sheer greed that comes from a life of being raised to leech AND to be told everything is an equal achievement means they ask why are you getting things that they in their minds feel they equally deserve.

its bullshit but in america and england its so prevalanet. its chavs in stolen tracksuits or bros in poped collars and a six pack in the passenger seat of their car that look at people desperate to rise above their poor starts in life by working hard as freaks who are making them lookbad intentionally and therefore you are the scum for doing so.

THAT needs to change before anything else. change it so wanting to learn and better yourself is no longer seen as "something faggots do because they think they are better than you"

[Tricky]

So is this bullshit still going on, or what? After what, 5 days? Any rioters should be about worn out from it by now.

No for the time being its all gone quiet, its pissing down with rain all over the UK so I'm guessing the little darlings don't want to get wet, plus the police have got organised & have swamped the areas where all the trouble has been so for now there's relative calm. I doubt we've seen the last of the trouble though, give it a few weeks when the police presence has died down & I reckon a few of them might kick off again having got a taste for it.
To our friends over the pond, please don't assume this is the poor oppressed underclass rising up against unfair treatment and poverty, its not, its more a case of delinquents, criminals, plastic gangsta wannabes, chavs & opportunist thieves taking advantage of a situation & using it to go on a mindless rampage both for fun & because they see themselves as untouchable hardcases.

[Exatreides]

As I stated in my post, I don't think that it's whats going on in England, and comparing it to the UK isn't right which is why I got on Arc for it




I don't care about the poor or their problems. I'll tell you straight out. I'm half-assed poor myself, but you don't hear me bitching, moaning, and asking for handouts. And what I really laugh at is the whole "no opportunity" bullshit. Sorry, no. I grew up without a pot to piss in, in the same shithole tenements, eating the same government-issue peanut butter and cheese, going to the same fucking public schools. Gee, I managed to learn while there. I managed to get off the tit and provide for myself. I managed to move into a decent neighborhood in my adult life. And guess what? I never took any shortcuts. THAT'S what dope-pushing and home invasions are - shortcuts. Not "no choice", or inventive. They are the shortcuts of people too lazy or impatient to do things the right way.Their are whole fields in sociology about this field. Please note that I'm not talking about being "half assed poor" or suffering from American "Relative poverty". I'm talking about people who have a simple struggle to survive on day to day means. Inner city schools in nations around the country are falling to pieces, schools and class rooms are very full and supplies are limited.

Detroit nearly had to introduce a policy of 60 students per classroom, but managed to avoid it with other budget cuts. However the threat still looms

The education system pushes test scores and test scores with out actually teaching them. I went to school under "No child left behind." and we spent weeks if not months just preparing for things we would know would be on the test.

Now if your in a classroom with 35-40 other students, you don't get any books for the subject because the school wasn't deemed as "succeeding" enough to get further government funds, you have no interest in taking the Validation tests, and are only thinking about your next meal and where your going to sleep the next day.

While YOU may have been able to do just fine, some people can't cope, and instead decide to make do something else. Don't judge a whole group of people based on your own unique circumstances. You weren't everywhere, you didn't experience everything that people in situations did, and frankly statistically you're wrong. Shitty schools lead to uneducated people who will do what it takes to survive.



The difference is, I decided long ago that I didn't want to endure ghetto living at its finest my whole fucking life. And you know what? It doesn't take a million dollars a year to get off the shitheap. Barely over minimum wage will do it for you. That, and staying out of jail and bullshit activity like that which hampers your OWN progress. Not someone else hampering it. Not the rich. Not anyone but self. But for some reason, millions of people REFUSE to hold themselves accountable, and improve their station in life. Instead, they blame people they perceive as being "oppressors" just because they have more material wealth. Um, maybe they worked for it and deserve it?

The United States isn't Somalia. EVERYONE here has the opportunity to make something of themselves. People should stop acting like fucking it up yourself through dumbassed decisions is somehow "unfair".


Good, I'm glad for your unique situation and that you managed to overcome strife. However your own experience doesn't reflect those that grew up under the poverty line. Those born into poverty often stay in poverty.

Actually the gap between the rich and the poor is the highest it's been in over 30 years
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=21284

Somalia is a great example of a libertarian paradise where the Government existence doesn't exist and everyone has a chance to "be all they can be". What stable haven of liberty that nation is... Compared to the oppressive unhappy evil socialist country of Denmark http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm)
(Denmark happiest nation on Earth)

[Publius]

The problem is with that, what will they do with them once they've cut off the benefits or evicted them etc?

Bet y'all are wishing you hadn't let Australia go now, eh? ;)

-- -------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------


Somalia is a great example of a libertarian paradise where the Government existence doesn't exist and everyone has a chance to "be all they can be". What stable haven of liberty that nation is... Compared to the oppressive unhappy evil socialist country of Denmark http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5224306.stm)
(Denmark happiest nation on Earth)

Somalia's problems are largely due to the degree to which it is NOT libertarian (i.e., subject to the exercise of arbitrary power by warlords), combined with the legacy of decades of totalitarian socialist rule under the Barre regime. That being said, Somalia has actually done pretty well under statelessness compared to its less-libertarian neighbors. Per capita GDP is higher than Eritrea or Ethiopia, and its telecommunications and airline services are among the best in Africa (in the rest of Africa these industries are typically tightly government-controlled).

[AfterMovieDiner]

Trouble is, regardless of rich or poor, the 1st word countries of the world are becoming increasingly anti-intellectiusim focus'ed. i mean everyones heard the bill hicks joke where he is ridiculed for reading in public. We circle jerk everything and make wiping your ass as equal an achievement as getting a phd and if you show any semblance of intelligence, ingenuity or drive you are like a freak to these people.

Instead people view education as, not something to aspire to gain, but as something equal to 'spoon in your mouth'' comments and if you try and work hard or get into education you are seen in either regard as scum who thinks they are better than the 'yoof' and 'good ole boys' because you have the audacity to make them look bad and get a better quality of life and their sheer greed that comes from a life of being raised to leech AND to be told everything is an equal achievement means they ask why are you getting things that they in their minds feel they equally deserve.[/I]

I couldn't agree more Danny. Intelligence and education have become something suspicious, something rich people do, something elite, something to sneer at and look down upon. It's a bit crazy. We aspire either to do nothing and have things handed to us or for some fleeting get rich quick scheme like 15 minute celebrity on some Reality TV station. The working classes used to be a proud, diverse, exciting and community orientated people. Now they are represented by these marauding, knuckle draggers.

We need to put stuff back on TV, in magazines and on the net that celebrates intelligence, eloquence, manners, sophistication and class as things to aspire to and achieve. Not as things only obtainable to the wealthy or privileged but available for all, actually at no cost.

Nobody is going to listen to politicians anymore, they are tainted with the stink of corruption, bribery, weak willed knee buckling and idiocy, the church becomes less and less relevant, not that it was ever truly useful, we don't want Britain to become a police state and so it IS up to the media.
If we can't change the useless and, in most cases, bone idol benefit taking or absentee parents and teachers should not have to handle absolutely every part of a child's development, we need to just get the message out there that intelligence and class is what you want, not flat screen tvs, tracksuits, drugs, guns etc. The media has to act responsibly, I see no other alternative. Get rid of reality Television and lowest common denominator SHIT and put something good on, anything that is actually written, acted and directed by creative, passionate individuals, not committees of greasy, tight jean wearing, shit spewers like the Simon Cowell's of this world.

Bill Hicks said it years ago and now it's coming to pass. The survival of the fittest will not be braun in the future, it will and HAS to be brains...

[Danny]

Exactly. quite so.

[Neil]

I hope those girls will be getting a knock on their door from the police sometime soon - being that they were drinking looted wine (I wonder if they were underage to boot).

Courts are operating 24 hours a day in some places, and the cops are using info on suspects (CCTV and intel from the public) to track them down and arrest the bastards. It wasn't just bloody kids either, one example was a primary school teacher! :eek: I wonder what he stole, because I wonder if it was really worth getting a criminal record and losing your job - and indeed, being that he's a teacher, ruining his prospects of ever teaching again.

A petition has been transferred to parliament (after getting 100,000 signatures) saying that benefits should be stripped from people who have rioted - I'd have to agree - what's more, their existing possessions should be confiscated as a fine in addition to receiving a criminal record and whatever convictions they get.
What the looters will get is probably sentenced to a day in prison, which will be written off due to them already having spent night/day in cells waiting trial. So in effect, they walk out of court, job done...

Would love to hear otherwise...

-- -------- Post added at 01:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 AM ----------

...and of course now we have a murder enquiry...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-14500869

[shootemindehead]

I'd rather have her than any of the other pocket lining hand wringing incompetant champagne socialist arseholes we've had running the country for the past 20 years...

There is much of a difference Tricky. Your whole political system needs tearing down and re-establishing completely.

-- -------- Post added at 05:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:11 PM ----------


I couldn't agree more Danny. Intelligence and education have become something suspicious, something rich people do, something elite, something to sneer at and look down upon.

That's because it's becoming that way more and more. We are slipping back into a world where the well off will have access to high education standards and the poor to average with have to lump it.

Another, very real, problem is that, in many 1st world Nations, there isn't enough work being created for people who cannot aspire to the lofty heights of a University Degree or Masters...and even then that's no guarantee of a job or career. In other words, a lot of people view education as a waste of time, as there's little reward at the end of it. Now, of course, I know that education can be it's own reward in and of itself. However, a lot of people won't see it that way.

Here in Ireland, working for a living is a joke and we have a rather well educated society in general. I understand perfectly well why people "opt out". There just isn't the employment situation in place to provide meaningful work for a lot of people and with that sort of environment, people will tune out.

Decent work = Money = Access to better education = Better living standards for society

It's a simple equation.

During the ugh..."Celtic Tiger" (I hate that phrase), Ireland had near full employment and shock horror...people took jobs (even people who never had work before) College enrolment went up too. People who had never considered going to college, suddenly had the option opened up to them. Of course, like in most economic situations in Ireland, it was a false economy as it relied heavily on outside factors. In other words indigenous employment was almost completely neglected. Thus, when the inevitable downturn came, all of those nice jobs when overseas to places like India or China and with the further neutering of Ireland's economy caused by blind Capitalist greed and the failing of the bank "system", we now have 1/2 a million people unemployed again and to be honest, I wouldn't blame those people if they rioted tomorrow.

In the England situation, it would also be a mistake to lump everybody into the same "Dole scumbag" category as it doesn't appear to be the case. On the news and that's all I have to go on, they said that some of the arrested people were holding down jobs. One guy was a teacher!

In situations like this, it's all too easy to fall back on clichés, but the reality is that many people, not just those "benefits culture" people (who are an extreme minority) are really fed up with where Britain is heading. They are not happy at all with it's direction (or the recent past) and I'm sure that many a person took to the streets with those frustrations in mind.

That's not to say, however, that all of those who rioted were of that mindset. I have no doubt that there were many an opportunist out simply to wreck and cause havoc for their own simple minded amusement and as the week (and lack of police response) went on, no doubt they were joined by others of that kind.

This is nothing new though. I'm old enough to remember many a riot in Britain, including the various "Brixton riots", "Poll Tax riots" and "Toxteth riots". Oldham and Manchester were the scene of terrible rioting a few years ago. There's nothing happening here that hasn't happened before.

[Neil]

Yeh, seems they've tracked down one of the scum!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14516112

[Mr. Clean]

That's such a shitty thing to do...just terrible

[Danny]

#1 top rated video next to it "the riots: the whites have become black" fuuuck offf. seriously. in this day and age race has fuck all to do with being a yob. its how you are raised and were you live.

[MinionZombie]

Yeh, seems they've tracked down one of the scum!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14516112

And I hope they get the others too! That was one of the most shocking scenes from these last few days. Courts are hearing cases 24 hours a day in some places, we're heading towards 2000 arrests, so I hope that it continues apace to tackle these bastards.


#1 top rated video next to it "the riots: the whites have become black" fuuuck offf. seriously. in this day and age race has fuck all to do with being a yob. its how you are raised and were you live.

Indeed - a thug is a thug is a thug. People are people, I don't care about skin colour - it's merely melanin - and features are merely breeding patterns, it's not witchcraft. We've all got fingers and toes and a beating heart, but some in our society - the vast minority - refuse to live by the laws that the rest of us would never think of breaking in a million years.

I see the high-ups at the police have been whinging and moaning about the PM bringing in this guy from America who has shown that he knows how to deal with gang culture ... I never knew the people in charge of the police were such delicate flowers - christ almighty, we've clearly got a serious problem that needs dealing with - by all means we SHOULD be bringing in outside experts to help us out!

The cops on the ground did a fantastic job, but those leading them made some stupid-arse decisions ... all that 'stand by and watch' bullshit ... and these same police leaders claiming they didn't need the politicians to tell them what to do ... ... well if that was the case, how come there wasn't a coordinated, strong-armed crackdown on Night-friggin-TWO?!

In short - we need some balls attached to those running the police, we need tactics and instruction from an outside source. The guys and gals on the actual streets did a stand-up job, but they were being lead by some idiots ... idiots who spend too much time getting involved in politics (which, really, they shouldn't be doing at all in their position) than understanding the situation on the ground.

Furthermore, we DO need far less coppers stuck indoors filling out paperwork, and we DO need more of them trained in riot policing. Perhaps it could be trained in 'tiers' - like you have front line riot training, then second-line back-up, and then third-line reserves who take over to keep a place secure after it's been dealt with by the first two tiers.

[Neil]

vXSLbtdzzes

[AcesandEights]

Wow, that made me angry to watch. Those streets needed to be swept badly.

[Danny]

stupid street trash..

[MinionZombie]

Sure enough - there are some people whining about "human rights" for those getting punished. :mad::rolleyes::mad:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pair-incited-riots-facebook-jailed-185441906.html

A couple of arseholes who attempted to incite rioting and looting get 4 years a piece (maximum sentence was 10 years) - so if anything they got off lightly, especially as they'll never end up doing 4 years ... but incitement to riot is a serious offence, regardless of whether they were successful in their attempt or not. I mean come on, they're not being hung, drawn and quartered!

It's these sort of whiny whingers that got us into this mess in the first place - because of people that go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too soft on criminals because of "human rights", we had police chiefs telling their men on the ground to "observe" rather than actually fix the unspooling problem around them which continued for nights.

What about the human rights of everyone who lost their jobs because their employer's premises were burned down, what about the people who were burned out of their homes and lost their entire lives in flames, what about the people who were victims of robbery, what about the people who were beaten up by rioting and looting thugs, what about the people who died as a result of rioters?

If you can't play nice in modern society, you deserve every punishment you receive.

[Neil]

Sure enough - there are some people whining about "human rights" for those getting punished. :mad::rolleyes::mad:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pair-incited-riots-facebook-jailed-185441906.html

A couple of arseholes who attempted to incite rioting and looting get 4 years a piece (maximum sentence was 10 years) - so if anything they got off lightly, especially as they'll never end up doing 4 years ... but incitement to riot is a serious offence, regardless of whether they were successful in their attempt or not. I mean come on, they're not being hung, drawn and quartered!

It's these sort of whiny whingers that got us into this mess in the first place - because of people that go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too soft on criminals because of "human rights", we had police chiefs telling their men on the ground to "observe" rather than actually fix the unspooling problem around them which continued for nights.

What about the human rights of everyone who lost their jobs because their employer's premises were burned down, what about the people who were burned out of their homes and lost their entire lives in flames, what about the people who were victims of robbery, what about the people who were beaten up by rioting and looting thugs, what about the people who died as a result of rioters?

If you can't play nice in modern society, you deserve every punishment you receive.If we consider such events can risk/cost lives, then we can consider how serious an issue it is!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330

Mr Brake told the BBC's Newsnight that some of those convicted had received sentences which would have been different if they had committed the same crime the day before the riots.

...and so it should be! They were part of a riot, so that needs to be taken into consideration! If they had committed the offence the day before, then they would not have been part of a riot!

[AcesandEights]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14553330



Wow, a lot of crazy comments under that article! I mean all the ones I looked at were whiney or making excuses for this sort of behavior:


Icebloo
14 Hours ago

Politicians are STILL pointing the finger of blame at everyone else but themselves. How predictable.
This was not the work of gangs - this was disgruntled people who are sick of the cruel and horrible policies of this failing government.


Shaibal
14 Hours ago

Dave returned from holiday after the riots were over. He now talks to us about responsibility? Elected MPs cheated on expense and stole taxpayer's money. The majority of them are still in Parliament. White collar crime seems to be less severely punished. Rioters were opportunistic criminals and should be punished but so should the members of parliament who stole from us.


lordBanners
14 Hours ago

Whats next, a Foreign Conspiracy? When you have a system which feeds off it's most vulnerable like fleas off of dogs, they will start behaving accordingly.People NEED Hope, something UK's marginalised are devoid of. THAT is a Political problem first, Criminal problem second.
With a bit of Hope Riots won't even be an option. But hey, finger-wagging does make Bigots feel good.
RUBBISH. Here's what Cameron & Police won't admit to:-
Stop-and-search under Sec 60 of the Criminal Justice & Public Order Act 1994 introduced for football hooligans.Allow police to search anyone in 'designated' areas without grounds for suspicion.97/98 saw 7,970 stop-and-search,increasing to149,955 in 08/09. Between 2005/09 No of Sec 60 search of blacks rose over 650% unrelated to Football.


MrAdamo
16th August 2011 - 23:58

To follow on from my last comment: A government has the power to create the kind of society and the kind of culture it desires. These riots are a product of that government. First you demoralize, then you destabilize, then you create a crisis, and finally, you normalize society into the kind of system that best works for you; which for them is a total police state where they have absolute control.

I mean, I get that we're all sick of irresponsible government run amok that only looks out for the interests of itself and it's key backers...but using such as an excuse for looting, property damage, theft and worse of all random assaults?

[Neil]

This was not the work of gangs - this was disgruntled people who are sick of the cruel and horrible policies of this failing government.

Yep, breaking into a shoe shop and stealing pairs of trainers certainly makes a powerful political statement!

[MikePizzoff]

Yep, breaking into a shoe shop and stealing pairs of trainers certainly makes a powerful political statement!

Nothing screams "liberation" like being able to run faster and jump higher!

[AcesandEights]

Nothing screams "liberation" like being able to run faster and jump higher!

:lol: Reminds me of the Instant Karma Nike commercials from the 90s.

[SymphonicX]

Only a few points to make as I hate these bloody threads on this board.

Firstly Mark Duggan didn't cause the riot. A 16 year old girl getting pummelled by the police during his vigil caused it. So yeah, the 16 year old was fucking out of order, she threw a rock at police...she got hospitalised for her troubles by 5 burly policemen who literally kicked the shit out of her.

you can't really see the incident in this video, but you can hear the reactions:

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/16-year-old-girl-beaten-police-sparks-london-riots-violence

Moving along - this is a socio economical issue which I'm sure has long been said in this thread.

Also, let's consider 4 years in prison for a stupidly placed joke facebook page, versus a rise in bonuses, holidays and incentives for the bankers which have cost us our entire economy.

Let's look at the 2 years given to a teenage boy for looting a BOTTLE OF WATER.....

Let's put this in perspective: £200 million pounds worth of damage to london as equalled thousands of years of prison time, versus a £500 trillion dollar FRAUD which has landed precisely NO ONE in jail.

For the cost of sending just 2 young men to jail for 4 years for setting up a facebook group that didn't cause a riot, you could employ 4 youth workers for 4 years working with up to 200 of the most alienated young people per year (800 young people in 4 yrs) or pay for a full time youth advice service in 8 large secondary schools (benefitting around 10,000 young people) for a year or you could employ 24 young people on £15,000 for a year at a time when youth unemployment has reached over 20%. (can just feel the bleating arguments from the middle classes that these kids don't deserve that. If so, shame on you)


And yeah, I agree - idiots on the streets have burnt down their own communities and the basic FAILURE of fundamental values in these kids and their parents have caused them to go on a blind rampage, causing nothing but agro to innocent and undeserving people. A massive shame - but if we'd raised generations of kids with an understanding of empathy, respect, etc - then this MARGINALISED fringe of society wouldn't be hitting out at themselves and innocent people - and it would have been an "arab spring" for those guys as well. But with them being so uneducated and blank, it just lead to them setting fire to their own houses. Well done.

Let's not forget here, social unresst can ocurr within EVERY fringe of society. The main complaint is that the current fringe in question feel marginalised - well it may be true, but what group of people AREN'T marginalised?? White people feel marginalised, black people do, poor people, even in some ironic case so do the rich! So in essence this could have happened to ANY group of people.

But let's not pretend this is a one sided thing with just one generation of dodgy kids to blame - this is the overboil of a cultural melting pot which has been simmering for decades, since the Toxteth riots of the 80s. It's in part down to a racist institutionalised police force, poverty near third world levels in certain parts of London, and a complete lack of instilled values caused by media invasion, consumerism and materialism. Just have a look at the news with a bunch of discussions on how to get the youth of today to "embrace consumerism" to see just how people are dealing with this problem.

It's clear however that all political issues were dissolved after day 1 - and as soon as the riots kicked off elsewhere, then it was just about having a bit of fun and causing trouble and getting up to sickening criminal behaviour. It was very quickly that these idiots forgot about any political bullshit they were justifying this with. I won't pretend and say the riots were justified, but on day 1 in tottenham, it was a very different story to day 2 in Brixton.

And that's all I have to rabble about! rabble rabble rabble! :) But this isn't one sided, the kids in question may be to blame but blame, insight and justification are VERY VERY different - and the political right wing needs to learn this before continually bleating out such shit as "I had a hard life but I didn't do blah blah blah". Its not that easy, deal with it.

-- -------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

and finally to add: I grew up in fucking Walthamstow, East London. Ten mins down the road from me is Tottenham Hale Tube station. 15 mins bus ride is Hackney, Tower Hamlets etc. I grew up in the gutteral end of East London, so I know first hand what the socio-economic situation is in these areas and it is DIRE. Don't think for a second that Berkshire/Surrey/Oxford is the fucking same as Walthamstow, it's not. In Berkshire you can leave your house at night, in Walthamstow, you get attacked. It's a rough, rough area - rougher than Brixton. People there just don't give a fuck and haven't for a very very long time. It's a crying shame. But trust me I'm not sitting in my middle class flat with my middle class job and middle class family telling the poor what their lives are like - something which we see far too much of on the news.

[Tricky]

-- -------- Post added at 04:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

[/COLOR]and finally to add: I grew up in fucking Walthamstow, East London. Ten mins down the road from me is Tottenham Hale Tube station. 15 mins bus ride is Hackney, Tower Hamlets etc. I grew up in the gutteral end of East London, so I know first hand what the socio-economic situation is in these areas and it is DIRE. Don't think for a second that Berkshire/Surrey/Oxford is the fucking same as Walthamstow, it's not. In Berkshire you can leave your house at night, in Walthamstow, you get attacked. It's a rough, rough area - rougher than Brixton. People there just don't give a fuck and haven't for a very very long time. It's a crying shame. But trust me I'm not sitting in my middle class flat with my middle class job and middle class family telling the poor what their lives are like - something which we see far too much of on the news.

With that in mind, is it the area that makes it dire, or is it the people that live there? You can give scum a mansion and millions of pounds
http://i3.bebo.com/045a/2/mediuml/2008/03/29/08/5228082473a7286872114ml.jpg
(that fat shit as a prime example) and they are still scum regardless! Even living out here in the country we see it, I live in a quiet village, but on numerous occasions over the years the council has moved a problem family from Hull or one of the neighbouring towns into one of the decent houses here after they've been evicted from their previous home, and before long they've wrecked what was a decent property, their kids are running wild vandalising everything in sight and pissing off all the decent people here, local kids start getting bullied and eventually they have to be evicted again & moved on elsewhere. Strikes me these people like living in shitholes, because everywhere they go they try to turn it into one, even when given somewhere decent to live!

[SymphonicX]

With that in mind, is it the area that makes it dire, or is it the people that live there? You can give scum a mansion and millions of pounds
http://i3.bebo.com/045a/2/mediuml/2008/03/29/08/5228082473a7286872114ml.jpg
(that fat shit as a prime example) and they are still scum regardless! Even living out here in the country we see it, I live in a quiet village, but on numerous occasions over the years the council has moved a problem family from Hull or one of the neighbouring towns into one of the decent houses here after they've been evicted from their previous home, and before long they've wrecked what was a decent property, their kids are running wild vandalising everything in sight and pissing off all the decent people here, local kids start getting bullied and eventually they have to be evicted again & moved on elsewhere. Strikes me these people like living in shitholes, because everywhere they go they try to turn it into one, even when given somewhere decent to live!

Yeah they're not exactly dealing with a problem by evicting problem families to other neighbourhoods - it's the classic Romero-ism of ignoring the issue until it bites your neck...

But to be completely honest you've got to look MUCH deeper than the actual people doing that...those scum families, what do they have in their heads? Nothing. Why is that? Why are they empty headed, materialistic, reactionary, violent people? Is it because their mums gave birth to them and taught them right from wrong, yet they still turn out to be scum?Did their parents instill that sense of "money doesn't make you happy"? Or even basic fundamental things like respect and empathy?
I highly doubt it in most cases (of course there are exceptions).

So if you take one family, from a socially deprived area, and mix them into a culture that places untold value on material goods, money, status, etc - then they are going to grow up and evolve into this world not with a concept of appreciation, but with a concept of "why can't *I* have those things".....Now normally, that might actually be OK - but then take that already volatile mix and put it in areas with bad education systems...its all getting a bit "chicken and egg"y but lack of good solid education, mixed with a society based on blame, reaction, material goods, and INDIVIDUALISM (the most prevalent word in this whole debate) and you have a volatile mix to say the least.

You can also factor in other things, such as early pregnancies, a welfare state happy to hand out more money than the average wage, and finally - the economic situation at hand whereby rich people seem protected whilst the average joe gets ALL the cuts....makes you wonder why this hasn't happened earlier.

(and makes you wonder why idiots riot against a system set up to hand out money to most of them - again, lack of education)

I think the biggest fallacy in all of this is that this is somehow unexpected or shocking.

So in answer to your question no, I don't think those scum families WANT to be like that (and having come from one of those scum families...) I can firmly and confidently say its just that they don't know any better. They've grown up in a world that's taught to deal with their problems by ways of anger, frustration, etc...they're basically de-evolved animals. Made idiots by the world around them.

Collectivism is dead - that's the fuckin' issue here!

[Tricky]

Thing is you say you came from one of those families, but you come across as a decent guy with morals and your head screwed on the right way (we disagree politically but that doesnt change the person you are) so what made you into a decent guy? and why can't these others follow your lead and pull themselves out of the slums with a desire to better themselves and be respected for actually being decent people rather than trying to get respect by putting fear into others and acquiring everything they want through dubious means?
I'd love to own huge TV's and stereos, live in a plush house in a nice area, drive an awesome car, be a designer label clothes horse and have several holidays a year, but I'm stuck in a rut in a job that pays a below average wage which seems to earn me less than those who don't work get handed, yet I don't feel that I'm entitled to all the trappings that the TV adverts and music videos tell me I should have, I feel that I should earn them, and I'm trying to claw my way to better things by gaining experience in my job, taking extra qualifications outside of work, and hopefully at some point landing a decent job that pays me more than I get now. I've never claimed benefits, I've shovelled pig shit, gutted chickens, spent all day in fields chopping lettuces, and generally been a low down dogsbody to earn my money in the past. My job now isnt brilliant, but its a technical admin job for one of the biggest haulage companies in the world, I worked bloody hard to get there, and I'll work even harder to get out and further up! It seems to me though these people don't want to follow the example of people like me and earn their way, they just want everything without having to work for it, and they're angry because life actually isnt like that and they think it should be.
All this bollocks some of them spout about immigrants getting all the jobs pisses me off too, when I was doing the chicken gutting and lettuce chopping, I was mostly working with immigrant workers, but they were there because they were willing to work bloody hard and didnt think they were too good for the job (and despite being on minimum wage, it made most of them very rich when they went back home at the end of the season), whereas a lot of these chavs say "I arent doing fucking shit jobs like that" even though they aren't qualified to do anything else!

[SymphonicX]

Thanks for saying I'm a decent guy, some would disagree!
A breakdown of my family: mum turned into abusive alcoholic when I was age 11, my dad is borderline autistic/adhd and a complete and utter nutter. My mum's side of the family are mostly, without doubt, scummy - but they hail from a solid working class background and luckily, those values got over to me before it all went tits up at age 11.

My nan is a perfect example:

Child 1: married and had successful life before unfortunately killing himself in the early 90s
child 2: my mum - alcoholic for many years
child 3: my aunt - got out of the family as quick as possible at age 16
child 4: uncle - did the same but unfortunately suffered a brain tumour which destroyed his life
child 5: layabout, drunk, never worked a day in his life, benefit claming alcoholic mess with social services interest in his kid's welfare
child 6: an absolute sociopath - has attempted to kill people, has raised a bunch of fucking horrible kids into the world, one of which is mentally ill in a hospital after a violent assault and the other's in prison for crackdealing and biting off his girlfriend's cheek.

The quality of people's lives in my family went further and further downhill until the point of absolute absurdity - and it can very easily be traced back to the breakdown of my grandparents parenting....My grandad was a violent, nasty c*nt to his children, but his power diminished rapidly as age set in and by child number 5, things had gotten out of control - so the resentment from his children set in and basically everyone grew to hate everyone else.

I hid in my bedroom until about age 18 - then I left home as soon as possible (can see a cycle already). I don't know why I came out the way I did, on paper I should be a nightmare - but its just the way it is. At the most vulnerable points in my life I was taken care of - and I never had to fend for myself out on the streets.

Unfortunately though you're playing the "this is the way it was for me and I'm not fucked up" card - as I say, there are many many factors that helped create the persona we know as Tricky - and every single one is 100% different from every other human's in this world (i bet your parents are half decent) - so basis for comparison is a bit moot unless you'd all lived exactly the same lives....

I would love to be able to give you an insight into why I wanted to improve my situation...perhaps it's cos I locked myself in a room with loads of books? I read a lot, and got through many books in my youth...also I was bumped up a year in primary school due to the month I was born (August, the term cusp) meaning I had to grow up a bit quicker than I was ready for - and found myself learning a year above my actual intelligence level....little things like that can have a massively profound effect on someone....my parents weren't THAT bad, for instance nothing like the people you cited as an example - but what it comes down to is that there are WAY too many variables which the political right just shuts their ears and eyes to - and its this ignoring of very obvious factors such as this which massively contributes to the problem...!

[MinionZombie]

I just watched a "hoody horror" called Eden Lake - good flick, but extremely grim.

Anyway, the main themes in that flick regarding the horrendous behaviour of the depicted yobbo teens is one of nurture rather than nature. A combination of an abusive family where shit rolls down hill, where violence is handed down from the eldest to the youngest, and a surrounding community that ignores any problems with blissful ignorance and a complete lack of parenting.

These rioters are a mixture - some got wrapped up in the hysteria of the moment and made an extremely poor decision to get involved in horrific scenes of violence and property damage that terrorised communities across England ("joke" or not, successful or not, inciting a riot is an extremely serious criminal offense - one that can result in at the very least fear for an entire community, and at most the very scenes we saw played out on television for several nights).

Others are tearaway children who are fatherless, and lack any kind of positive role model in their lives. Indeed, there'll be many of these rioters who are the so-called alpha male in the family. They have no father, they're the eldest male child, so they assume the role of alpha male without any guidance or knowledge of what they should be doing ... instead they just assume dominance and do whatever they like. The remaining parent can't - or won't - deal with the child, who is allowed to run amok at school without appropriate punishment (when they bother to turn up at school that is), and likewise the extended family will either have nothing to do with the wretched little shit, can't provide any control despite their best efforts, or will be bad examples and encourage criminal behaviour.

Add in a society that encourages the worship of talentless non-celebrities in garbage like Big Brother, Heat Magazine, 'TOWIE' et al, claiming that a 42" flat screen and flash trainers are the solution to happiness, and you've got a big mess.

The vast majority know that big screen TVs and trainers don't afford happiness, rather they're products that you work for and come to afford. However, for years this country was governed by politicians and commentators who claimed that it was perfectly fine to spend money you didn't have and couldn't afford to pay back (shameful in itself) ... then you have the benefit system that so often acts as a trap rather than a hand-up, with people having no sense of worth beyond 'leave school, regardless of grades, have a kid and be a mum' - we'll no doubt all know a few girls who left school at the earliest opportunity and now have several kids. If they can control their kids, fine, but there must be a deeper psychological issue at hand in some or many of these cases - an emotional void (be it from personal experience, or from the feeling of having no worth from your own actions) - that needs to be addressed.

Additionally, the out-look for practically all young people (except for those who are rich or well connected) is dreary. The country has a dire economic situation, a piss-poorly balanced economy, and an state education system that pumps out grades that become more meaningless year after year after year (while hardly teaching anybody anything useful, or anything in a way that is meant for long-term retainment, rather than the current short-term 'get it on the exam paper and forget it' style that we have had for many years).

Furthermore, the sense of community is busted in itself - even the decent everyday majority in this country hardly know their neighbours, and are oftentimes living far away from their extended families. Families are fractured across the country (even the globe), so that weakens society in a way, but even with those you aren't related to, you hardly know them - they're practically strangers - so you don't have that sense of community, until something shameful happens like these destructive riots, and then you get clean-up groups coming together for a collective short-term purpose (beyond which they'll all become strangers again, most likely).

The core problems are multi-faceted, but criminals must be dealt with - you absolutely cannot afford to inspire a view that you can get away with this sort of vicious nonsense. Indeed that's one of the reasons why it went on for nights on end - the thugs saw they could seemingly get away with it, so the weak-willed and out-right yobbish stuck in out of greed and aggression. There was no political campaign behind it - there were no banners, there were no protests, there was no cohesion beyond selfish violence and looting - rather it is a wide social problem that society must collectively deal with ... not just identify a few possible problems and then ask, once again (despite somewhat answering it already) "so what is to blame for all this?" like I saw on Panorama earlier this week ... ... that sense of sweeping it under the carpet, a short-term moment of apparently wanting to understand the problem, only to disregard actually having to deal with it head-on.

[Neil]

MZ, I'm afraid your comments are complete bollox... Everyone knows the TV has to be at least 50"!

ps: Good post!

[UndeadChicken]

I've got to admit that after hearing about all this, I've come to admire how the Chinese government handles their riots. People can talk bad about China all they want because they have a communist government, but there is no way they would tolerate this kind of shit happening in their country. I think these psychopaths deserve to be shot.

[Neil]

'Smart' CCTV could track rioters... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14629058


"If a window was smashed and shop looted in a town centre street, the technology would trace back to see who smashed the window and then retrace his steps to see when and where he entered the town centre.

"The technology would also trace where the man had gone after leaving the scene," said Dr Orwell.


Note the name of the doctor! How ironic!

[SymphonicX]

I just watched a "hoody horror" called Eden Lake - good flick, but extremely grim.

Anyway, the main themes in that flick regarding the horrendous behaviour of the depicted yobbo teens is one of nurture rather than nature. A combination of an abusive family where shit rolls down hill, where violence is handed down from the eldest to the youngest, and a surrounding community that ignores any problems with blissful ignorance and a complete lack of parenting.

These rioters are a mixture - some got wrapped up in the hysteria of the moment and made an extremely poor decision to get involved in horrific scenes of violence and property damage that terrorised communities across England ("joke" or not, successful or not, inciting a riot is an extremely serious criminal offense - one that can result in at the very least fear for an entire community, and at most the very scenes we saw played out on television for several nights).

Others are tearaway children who are fatherless, and lack any kind of positive role model in their lives. Indeed, there'll be many of these rioters who are the so-called alpha male in the family. They have no father, they're the eldest male child, so they assume the role of alpha male without any guidance or knowledge of what they should be doing ... instead they just assume dominance and do whatever they like. The remaining parent can't - or won't - deal with the child, who is allowed to run amok at school without appropriate punishment (when they bother to turn up at school that is), and likewise the extended family will either have nothing to do with the wretched little shit, can't provide any control despite their best efforts, or will be bad examples and encourage criminal behaviour.

Add in a society that encourages the worship of talentless non-celebrities in garbage like Big Brother, Heat Magazine, 'TOWIE' et al, claiming that a 42" flat screen and flash trainers are the solution to happiness, and you've got a big mess.

The vast majority know that big screen TVs and trainers don't afford happiness, rather they're products that you work for and come to afford. However, for years this country was governed by politicians and commentators who claimed that it was perfectly fine to spend money you didn't have and couldn't afford to pay back (shameful in itself) ... then you have the benefit system that so often acts as a trap rather than a hand-up, with people having no sense of worth beyond 'leave school, regardless of grades, have a kid and be a mum' - we'll no doubt all know a few girls who left school at the earliest opportunity and now have several kids. If they can control their kids, fine, but there must be a deeper psychological issue at hand in some or many of these cases - an emotional void (be it from personal experience, or from the feeling of having no worth from your own actions) - that needs to be addressed.

Additionally, the out-look for practically all young people (except for those who are rich or well connected) is dreary. The country has a dire economic situation, a piss-poorly balanced economy, and an state education system that pumps out grades that become more meaningless year after year after year (while hardly teaching anybody anything useful, or anything in a way that is meant for long-term retainment, rather than the current short-term 'get it on the exam paper and forget it' style that we have had for many years).

Furthermore, the sense of community is busted in itself - even the decent everyday majority in this country hardly know their neighbours, and are oftentimes living far away from their extended families. Families are fractured across the country (even the globe), so that weakens society in a way, but even with those you aren't related to, you hardly know them - they're practically strangers - so you don't have that sense of community, until something shameful happens like these destructive riots, and then you get clean-up groups coming together for a collective short-term purpose (beyond which they'll all become strangers again, most likely).

The core problems are multi-faceted, but criminals must be dealt with - you absolutely cannot afford to inspire a view that you can get away with this sort of vicious nonsense. Indeed that's one of the reasons why it went on for nights on end - the thugs saw they could seemingly get away with it, so the weak-willed and out-right yobbish stuck in out of greed and aggression. There was no political campaign behind it - there were no banners, there were no protests, there was no cohesion beyond selfish violence and looting - rather it is a wide social problem that society must collectively deal with ... not just identify a few possible problems and then ask, once again (despite somewhat answering it already) "so what is to blame for all this?" like I saw on Panorama earlier this week ... ... that sense of sweeping it under the carpet, a short-term moment of apparently wanting to understand the problem, only to disregard actually having to deal with it head-on.

admittedly had to skim your post but what I read I agree with 100%. Spot on.

-- -------- Post added at 08:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------


I've got to admit that after hearing about all this, I've come to admire how the Chinese government handles their riots. People can talk bad about China all they want because they have a communist government, but there is no way they would tolerate this kind of shit happening in their country. I think these psychopaths deserve to be shot.

Also goes for peaceful, legitimate protest. I wouldn't want to live under the iron glove of china and I'd put real money on you not wanting to either.

The worst worst response from people on this issue was "call in the army". People, do you want a police state? I can do without the public crying for an Orwellian political system.

Let's get this straight right now: the army are there to aggressively deal with international problems - the police are there to PROTECT THE PUBLIC. There's a difference and the line should NEVER be blurred less we end up like North Korea, Libya, Syria, China, etc.

[Andy]

I Think theres a huge difference between running a police state and using authority to hold scumbags responsible for their own actions, no matter how open and free a society is there will always be a criminal element that needs dealing with before it gets out of hand, which is exactly what our government has consistantly failed to do in the UK for years and years and years now.

I really dispise this liberal, excuse making spineless attitude that goes here in the UK and europe, i really do. Give me china over that anyday.

[AcesandEights]

I have to think there's a middle ground between oppressive totalitarian police states and the corrupt co-opted wellfare states that the West are turning into. You know, it just makes sense that there has to be :)

The common factor between the two (Western Wellfare States & Totalitarian regimes) seems to be a lack of power exercised by the people over their government and policy-makers to maintain a comfortable set of equitable and common-sense policies in line with their respective constitutions, the difference lies in that totalitarian governments have taken that right away, while the people in the West have given it up in favor of block-voting to moutpieces who are already in thrall to major interest groups other than the average citizen of their countries.

Or maybe I'm completely off base...

[shootemindehead]

...Give me china over that anyday.

I think it might be very wise to look at the history of China before commiting to such statements.

[Andy]

No absolutly not, i despise liberalism. I Blame liberal attitudes and liberal politicians ruling for all the problems in the west, over the last century as we've become more liberal in our society, we've also seen a huge drop is general social and moral attitudes, which is prevelent in america, the UK and europe, and that is whats wrong with us. Theres no personal or communal responsibility anymore, theres just excuses for everything. If we got a government in power that didnt spend all its time making excuses for the problems in society and faced up to them and dealt with them instead then it would do us all the world of good.

Say what you like about china, they still have one of the lowest crime rates in the modern world.

[AcesandEights]

Sure the official crime rates are low in China, but that hardly illustrates the truth. Totalitarian regimes historically have little in the way of compunctions against distorting facts and figures to illustrate how wonderful it is to live in their utopia under their Great Leader/Party etc.

In any event, I can tell you China's low crime rate statistics don't include their crimes against humanity.

I know it's natural to want to swing hard and fast in the opposite direction when looking at the problems faced by the crumbling West, looking for a silver bullet, but when you swing in a reactionary manner and effect major change you usually end up with a lot of the same problems under different headers. Better to affect substantive reform.

[shootemindehead]

No absolutly not, i despise liberalism. I Blame liberal attitudes and liberal politicians ruling for all the problems in the west, over the last century as we've become more liberal in our society, we've also seen a huge drop is general social and moral attitudes, which is prevelent in america, the UK and europe, and that is whats wrong with us. Theres no personal or communal responsibility anymore, theres just excuses for everything. If we got a government in power that didnt spend all its time making excuses for the problems in society and faced up to them and dealt with them instead then it would do us all the world of good.

Say what you like about china, they still have one of the lowest crime rates in the modern world.

So did nazi Germany.

Look, you're taking the "grass is always greener" to an extreme level and frankly, you don't live in THAT liberal a society, trust me.

What's lacking is a sense of real responsibility in many areas of society, from the ground up and as for "morals", they can be changed quicker than a blink of an eye. "morals" are largely bunkum, in my opinion.

Of course there would be a better situation if governments would take stock in the "wrongs" of the society that they govern and made better efforts to aid them, but the fact is that government and politics are now largely viewed as careers and not vocations. Far too many people get involved in politics as a career choice, rich in benefit, rather than out of a sense of duty for the common good and government is way too wrapped up in the bosom of large business, that often, the common good gets left far behind.

That's not "liberalism", that's "capitalism" and it's led a lot of "Western" countries down the path they find themselves in today.

However and I reiterate what I said before, look up the history of China and what the Chinese people had to endure for decades. I'm not talking about the Hong Kong's or the Shanghai's, I mean the poorer areas, especially those that were hit hard in the so called "great leap forward" in which millions died and many more were forced by the government to exist on subsistence farming. Or even take a look at the less harsh aspects, such as the restriction of travel or restriction on ownership rights.

You may be somewhat dismayed by the state of England at present...but "China" ain't the way to go.

[MinionZombie]

I think there's a lack of respect, responsibility, a genuine sense of belonging (e.g. familial, and wider society - families are spread across the country, if not globe, so you lose a sense of community in your own family, nevermind the lack of 'togetherness' you so often get in small amounts on a day-to-day basis that combines into a general sense of disconnection), and there's too much greed and impatience.

I'm all for capitalism - but in a responsible manner - for too long people have been borrowing and spending money they couldn't afford (Gordon Brown and Tony Blair made their guiding light for 13 ruddy years to boot), seeking happiness at the push of the on switch on some electronic device. Sure, buying a little something you've wanted for a while cheers you up a bit - but the problem comes when some people can't allocate that to an appropriate level within their own lives - their consumerism becomes their life, and acts as a plaster to obscure deeper issues inside their hearts that make them truly unhappy.

There's also a lack of communication - ironically in a world where it's easier to chat to people from all over the globe through your keyboard, we've spread further apart, even at the family level, but also at the friend level. People out for a drink with friends, but they're glued to their FUCKING IPHONES CHECKING FACEBOOK (that's a real pet peeve of mine - put the stupid fucking fancy schmancy stupidly expensive phone away and be with the people you're sitting next to!) I know that I would do well to improve my own communication skills - but some folks are a bit ham-fisted when it comes to verbalising the thoughts and feelings in your head and heart. Plus, personally speaking, being a barrel of contradictions doesn't help - and I think that's another problem with my generation - we don't know what we want, how we want to get there if we do, we say one thing but mean another, we don't know what our peers think about the same things, and about ourselves, and things have gotten increasingly more complicated - so I think that leads to a deep-seated sense of frustration and misguidance at a generational level.

However, such confusion and contradiction in your own life is NO excuse for looting. Indeed, many if not all people are frustrated and confused, but like we all have violent thoughts, only the extreme minority actually act on them - the looters and rioters, who lack any sense of community, respect, responsibility, and guidance in their lives (as well as a lack of appropriate expression in their skillset) took their problems and used them to fulfil their greed, impatience, and violent natures - and they should be punished appropriately, but strongly, for their stupid actions that caused untold damage and fear to the law abiding vast majority of this nation ... and that's totally unacceptable behaviour.

I was frustrated to hear on Newsnight last night the presenter saying 'there's still no apparent reason for the scenes from two weeks ago' - because I think we've gotten to the wider roots of the problem pretty damned quickly, and if these poncy-arsed presenters actually gave a bollocks, or wanted to accept that the problems are caused by wide ranging and troublesome caused that are deep-rooted in society, then such moronic statements wouldn't be strutted around like a "nevermind, just forget about it and determine it's too hard to figure out, so go and buy another HDTV to watch Newsnight on" by news presenters who are just as much a part of the problem as any of these other listed problems.

Getting into a bit of a rant here, but whatever. :D

[Andy]

So did nazi Germany.

Look, you're taking the "grass is always greener" to an extreme level and frankly, you don't live in THAT liberal a society, trust me.

What's lacking is a sense of real responsibility in many areas of society, from the ground up and as for "morals", they can be changed quicker than a blink of an eye. "morals" are largely bunkum, in my opinion.

Of course there would be a better situation if governments would take stock in the "wrongs" of the society that they govern and made better efforts to aid them, but the fact is that government and politics are now largely viewed as careers and not vocations. Far too many people get involved in politics as a career choice, rich in benefit, rather than out of a sense of duty for the common good and government is way too wrapped up in the bosom of large business, that often, the common good gets left far behind.

That's not "liberalism", that's "capitalism" and it's led a lot of "Western" countries down the path they find themselves in today.

However and I reiterate what I said before, look up the history of China and what the Chinese people had to endure for decades. I'm not talking about the Hong Kong's or the Shanghai's, I mean the poorer areas, especially those that were hit hard in the so called "great leap forward" in which millions died and many more were forced by the government to exist on subsistence farming. Or even take a look at the less harsh aspects, such as the restriction of travel or restriction on ownership rights.

You may be somewhat dismayed by the state of England at present...but "China" ain't the way to go.

:lol: i was waiting for somebody to trot out a nazi reference.

Theres a huge difference between fascism and wanting a government that is down to earth, dosnt take all authority from teachers, dosnt take all power away from police officers, dosnt create a open prison system where prisoners are given a life of luxury and then look for excuses when riots like these happen becuase there is absolutly no deterrents whatsoever to the perpretraitors.

Look how long it took our government to react to the riots and let the police use the measures they needed, and all these cocky young scumbags that where all over the news saying "we're not scared of the police, we can do what we like" were all nowhere to be seen the moment the police where given access to water cannons and rubber bullets, if these measures had been available straight away, these riots would never have happened and the perpetrators would have been squashed after hours rather than days and many, many decent people wouldnt have lost their homes, jobs and livelihoods. Thats what im talking about when i say responsibility, im not a fascist at all, im all for freedom of speech and a open society, im all for capitalism but you have to accept there is and always will be a section of society that NEEDS to be controlled and will only ever respond to authority. Liberal attitudes in successive governments have failed to control that and allowed it to spread and these riots are the result.

China, for all their faults, have a very good grip on this sort of thing and deal with any trouble swiftly and brilliantly. Our government could learn a thing or two from them and that was my point and i beleive that was UndeadChickens point aswell.

[AfterMovieDiner]

They key to everything in life is moderation, from the way you eat, to the way you party, to the way you run your household or the way you run your country.
The trouble is that moderation is by definition boring and human beings are erratic, selfish, egotistical, greedy and extreme beings who love a good argument/fight and when you multiply that into a countries politics you end up with these crazy polarising, it's got to be one way or the other situation the two party system allows to flourish.

The ideal political structure would be a democratic system with some socialism (police force/fire depts, transport, healthcare, postal service, regulations for banking institutions and credit lenders etc.) so your work force is looked after enough to survive in bad economic times but not too many crazy 'benefits' so people don't just live off the state and then enough of a capitalist free market that it allows people to make money, compete, build business etc. but instead of huge tax breaks, benefits per job created possibly.

The only way to do anything is with a little moderation. Extremist should be avoided in all forms by definition they are always going to be VERY wrong some of the time.

[shootemindehead]

:lol: i was waiting for somebody to trot out a nazi reference.

I'm sure you were waiting for a nazi reference and I wasn't trying to Godwin the subject, but the point still stands in relation to the "low crime rate" you refered to about China.


Theres a huge difference between fascism and wanting a government that is down to earth, dosnt take all authority from teachers, dosnt take all power away from police officers, dosnt create a open prison system where prisoners are given a life of luxury and then look for excuses when riots like these happen becuase there is absolutly no deterrents whatsoever to the perpretraitors.

Agreed, but there's also a "huge difference" between wanting all that and a Chinese style government Andy. Know what I mean?


Look how long it took our government to react to the riots and let the police use the measures they needed, and all these cocky young scumbags that where all over the news saying "we're not scared of the police, we can do what we like" were all nowhere to be seen the moment the police where given access to water cannons and rubber bullets, if these measures had been available straight away, these riots would never have happened and the perpetrators would have been squashed after hours rather than days and many, many decent people wouldnt have lost their homes, jobs and livelihoods. Thats what im talking about when i say responsibility, im not a fascist at all, im all for freedom of speech and a open society, im all for capitalism but you have to accept there is and always will be a section of society that NEEDS to be controlled and will only ever respond to authority. Liberal attitudes in successive governments have failed to control that and allowed it to spread and these riots are the result.

Or, it could have escalated into something MUCH worse, with running battles on the streets and far more damage. I really don't think you want to see Tottenham become West Belfast Andy.

Look, there are many reasons why the riots kicked off in England and none of them have anything to do with "Liberalism". People in general are angry. They're confused, they don't like where they're country is at the moment. But, it isn't a "Left Wing" or "Right Wing" issue. There have been riots under right wing governments too, listed in a post above. But, I see the people of England a somewhat lost. They have little identity these days and have been governed by people, since the 70's, who have become more and more concerned with pleasing Corporate interests and less and less concerned with the impact that their polices make on the people of the Country. Western Governments have viewed their custodian duties in terms of economy, rather than in terms of society. That's one of the reasons we have had the vast collapse of the banking system. Bad economic policy made without a single thought of what would happen to people if such measures went tits up...as they did...with no regulation whatsoever on a business concern that's notorious for being shifty. That's not "liberalism", it's not "left" or "right" wing...it's not even good "capitalism" for god's sake. It's just simply a bad business model and that's the main problem with Western governments in the last 40 years. Countries are being run increasingly like businesses and not like Countries and businesses only care about their employees (citizens) as long as they have something to offer. That's not the way to govern a society. Governments are supposed to provide avenues of possibility to their citizens, they're supposed to help create and maintain the infrastructure and fabric that help a society to function and grow. They are supposed to help engender situations whereby education, employment and national welfare are facilitated for all of the citizens of the nation. Unfortunately, those ideals are becoming less and less important to the people that form governments.


China, for all their faults, have a very good grip on this sort of thing and deal with any trouble swiftly and brilliantly. Our government could learn a thing or two from them and that was my point and i beleive that was UndeadChickens point aswell.

Trust me Andy, the last thing you want to give irresponsible Western governments, is the right to go all "Tiananmen Square" on people.