TWD 2x01 "What Lies Ahead" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Just to keep everything organised, and as spoiler-free as possible for people watching the episodes at different times (allowing them to join the episode specific discussions when they're ready), here's the official thread for discussing the first episode of season two of The Walking Dead.

For each new episode - a new individual thread can be created.

Have at it and enjoy. :)

[JDFP]

The thread says SPOILERS so be aware there are SPOILERS below and I'm not masking it as the thread says SPOILERS...

Well, I was going to wait 'til Halloween to watch it as part of my Halloween fest, but I have a ton of films lined up for Halloween and figured, eh, what the hell. I'd miss out on all the fun of discussing it with others around here as well.

Anyone else catch the "Bikers Welcome!" on the Southern Baptist church they walked into? I got a great laugh out of that personally, reminded me of an old Johnny Paycheck song called "The Outlaw Prayer". The whole feel of the Southern Baptist church was wrong though, I grew up Baptist (before converting to become Catholic at 19) and they do NOT generally have Christ still attached to the cross as it's seen as inappropriate generally. Out of all the Baptist churches I visited when I was younger there was just the plain cross with J.C. not there. I understand why they made the church "Southern Baptist" as they were outside Atlanta, but I think it would have been better just to have shown the name of the church and said "Smith Church" or something like that without throwing a denomination on it.

Overall, I was impressed. It seems the show is keeping up with the same quality as last season for the most part. I was highly pleased with Rick's announcement that they were going to aim for going to Ft. Benning (I called it last year!) as that seems like the most logical place to go - except maybe Warner Robins AFB which could also be on the list of places to possibly check out as well as a major military installation -- hey Bassman or others nearer that area than me, would Ft. Benning or Robins AFB be closer to Atlanta?

The one thing that struck me was the fact that they seemed surprised by the "Emergency Alert System" on the radio in the car they checked. If it were me in the RV or the truck I'd have been checking the AM/FM (especially AM) band on the radio every 20 miles or so just to see if anything was picked up for news or information because, as a wise man once quotes in a zombie film, "You never know."

Is it just me or is Andrea not turning into a major bitch? I felt bad for Dale (and it seemed others were feeling that way too) at the way she bitched at him for saving her life. Ungrateful and selfish isn't the way to make friends. I wouldn't be too sad to see her leave with Shane if they head for the hills - at this point I feel more sorry for Shane in his predicament than Andrea (even if she lost her sister, Amy was cuter anyway). I'm hoping Andrea will be less of a bitch in the next few episodes. I still feel conflicted for Shane - I don't think overall he's a terrible guy, he's no Captain Rhodes, he's just had a shit turn of events. Perhaps leaving from the rest of them and starting fresh somewhere else would be the best thing for him to do.

I'm looking forward to seeing where the series takes us!

EDIT: I just thought of this, but it bugs the hell out of me: WHY WERE THERE DEAD PEOPLE SITTING IN THEIR CARS THAT WEREN'T ZOMBIES? Did they die from Captain Trips that broke out the same time as the zombie apocalypse? If they were attacked by zombies and partially devoured they WOULD HAVE BECOME zombies; but they were not! They were just dead people sitting in their cars. Can someone please logically explain this to me?

j.p.

[acealive1]

great episode but i swear the madness is catching up to all of them. first shane.......then daryl over his brother (but he snapped out of it)......then andrea.....now its carol and she's blaming rick over the loss of her daughter........kinda fucked up

[JDFP]

What the hell? This time last year there were a good 10 people on the thread of the newest episode, and now no one is around to comment? What happened to HPotD? Where are all the zombie-loving people of this board? Wow, insanity.

Did everyone forget the premiere was tonight?

With that, I'm going to bed. Hopefully there will be some good comments, discussions, etc. tomorrow.

j.p.

[childofgilead]

I agree completely JD, there are alot of inconsistencies regarding the walkers in the show. It's dunno if it's just overlooked or if they're going to go for a bites only infection route.

As for the episode, I genuinely enjoyed it. Still more things I'd like to get the answers to, but then again, sometimes mysteries are better left unsolved. (i could have done without the webisode honestly, i felt they tried to do too much with too little)

I'm also a little curious as to when we'll stop seeing Darabont's name on the credits.

And does anyone else find it ironic that Darryl has an SS symbol on the tank of his bike, yet is quickly becoming the groups most capable member? He's definitely grown on me alot, especially with his completely hard nosed attempt at sympathy with Carol over the search for her daughter. Very great performance.

Shane is also growing on me alot. Nothing like the comic version and honestly, the only screwup I can pin on him so far is getting drunk and attempting to finger rape Lori.

Anyways yeah, here's hoping the series continues to hold onto this level of quality!

[clanglee]

I liked it. . .just not as much as last year's premier. But last year's was almost a movie unto itself. I wondered about the dead in the cars too. . .weird that. . not a single one of them turned out to be a zombie strapped in to the seatbelt or just locked in the car. . . .I guess they all just died of gridlock.

[White_Zombie]

EDIT: I just thought of this, but it bugs the hell out of me: WHY WERE THERE DEAD PEOPLE SITTING IN THEIR CARS THAT WEREN'T ZOMBIES? Did they die from Captain Trips that broke out the same time as the zombie apocalypse? If they were attacked by zombies and partially devoured they WOULD HAVE BECOME zombies; but they were not! They were just dead people sitting in their cars. Can someone please logically explain this to me?




Could be a lot of reasons such as a preexisting medical condition turned deadly with out medication. Dehydration, starvation, heat related injury brought on by being trapped in a car rather than getting eaten alive by walkers. Suicide? E.T.C. There's plenty of explanations on how they could have perished.... BUT...............

** SPOILER ** If it's true to the comics they would of came back to life no matter how they died unless they suffered severe brain trauma. And if that's what you mean then your guess is as good as mine. ** SPOILER **

Anyway howdy every one!! Haven't been really posting as much as I'd like lately, had to wipe my PC clean because of a virus and forgot my password here :annoyed:.. But anyways hope every one enjoyed this episode of the TWD, i know i did!! :thumbsup:

[jded]

First half hour was excellent! Wow! The tension created along the freeway was like silent frozen dreadful poetry. I kid you not.
I felt the gutting was unnecessary. Lastly, for crying out loud ditch the RV.

As for some of JDFP's inquiries.

I think Andrea is looking most definitely hotter than ever. What a body she's got all of a sudden. Could it be that I was too enamored by the Lori affect during the first season to notice? Possibly. And I'll make my prediction. Shane and Andrea? They'll be screwing soon.

The dead people sitting in the cars? I don't know, see any noticeable gunshot wounds to the face or head? Maybe Morgan got 'em! Or maybe there's a new zombie rule about to be born. If they never feed after re-animation they slowly wink out and die again. Remember the ones on the transit bus downtown from "Days Gone Bye?" They were slow to wake up, very slow.

[White_Zombie]

First half hour was excellent! Wow! The tension created along the freeway was like silent frozen dreadful poetry. I kid you not.
I felt the gutting was unnecessary. Lastly, for crying out loud ditch the RV.

As for some of JDFP's inquiries.

I think Andrea is looking most definitely hotter than ever. What a body she's got all of a sudden. Could it be that I was too enamored by the Lori affect during the first season to notice? Possibly. And I'll make my prediction. Shane and Andrea? They'll be screwing soon.

The dead people sitting in the cars? I don't know, see any noticeable gunshot wounds to the face or head? Maybe Morgan got 'em! Or maybe there's a new zombie rule about to be born. If they never feed after re-animation they slowly wink out and die again. Remember the ones on the transit bus downtown from "Days Gone Bye?" They were slow to wake up, very slow.

I don't know about that, after most of the human population being wiped out after awhile the living dead would die with them. There's only so many "woodchucks and stray dogs" in the world so they're demise would be inevitable. Great idea though!

I Definitely agree about Andrea, if i was Shane i'd forget about Lori and dip my hand in that honey pot, haha.

Whats up with Andrea screaming when that zombie was beating on the bathroom door, i would think she'd know better about noise discipline when there's at least a hundred walkers outside. Another thing i hate is how she can't put her weapon together when she's not in danger but she thinks she can when she is, idiotic to say the least.

I just remember the church bells!!! tell me how the hell that sound system would be going off when there's no power?! Inconsistencies much?

[kidgloves]

Slightly disapponted if im honest. Cant quite put my finger on it. Maybe with all these months of anticipation i was expecting something as good as the 1st season premiere. I really liked the tone though and the way they put the 1st season behind them before the credits rolled and it was time to start afresh. Also felt the gutting scene was unnecessary. I hope they don't feel like they have to have a gag in every episode just to please the gorehounds. Just follow the story.
Like last year, the previews didn't give much away and the scenes played out differently than expected. I just wish i hadn't read the comics because the ending of the episode was so obvious to me. No cliffhanger there.
Anyone else notice the episode had 2 directorial credits :confused:
Im going to have to watch it again i think.

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I really took an ENTIRELY different view of Andrea and Dale's interaction. Dale WAS coming off as a self-satisfied Father Knows Best sort of control freak. His whole "I'm not comfortable with you having your own gun right now", ESPECIALLY in light of the fact Andrea had just fought VEHEMENTLY for her life hand-to-screwdriver with that walker, came off patronizing as hell to me. Andrea's response to his statement about maybe expecting "a little gratitude for saving your life" really hit home/rung true for me. Her argument was both quite lucid AND ethical. Ie: "I didn't want your blood on my hands Dale. I just wanted to die on my own terms, not ripped apart by drooling freaks. You took that away from me Dale. It was my choice to make, and you took it away from me. Now you expect GRATITUDE?" Powerful stuff.

Dale (In conjunction with Shane making his hypocritical argument about there not being guns "floating around the group" in the hands of people without training. Dale doesn't have training, but Shane's just fine with him being Keeper of the Guns) had NO RIGHT to withhold the gun that Andrea's father gave her. She had it the whole time she was dealing with putting her sister Amy down once she'd reanimated, and for their trek to and then from the CDC. She had oodles of opportunities to eat a bullet if she was so inclined, and that walker she brought down with the screwdriver represented an opportunity to get infected so someone else would've had to take on the responsibility of putting her down if she wanted to die yet had found she didn't have the nerve to pull the trigger herself. Then there's the fact that, unlike Rick with all his training having caused a nearly fatal incident by "popping off shots like it was the O.K Corral", whereas Andrea, despite multiple very stressful situations has refrained from pulling the trigger in all but the single unavoidable instance of needing to put her reanimated sister down.

I agree that SO FAR (as in just 1 episode into the new situation) Shane has been much less of a problem, except for the hypocritical decision I just mentioned....It's ironic that Shane is backing up Dale's egocentric narcissism about responsible use of guns, when Mr. I'm Trained and You're Not drew down on and nearly shot someone he'd once (maybe still does, in a way) thought of as a close friend and trusted partner in the back with cold-blooded premeditation just because his former friend and partner had the "audacity" to survive and prevent Shane from usurping his place with Lori and Carl.

I feel like their decision about the guns isn't about the safety of the group so much as it's about selfishly maintaining their own peace of mind by not having to worry what others with guns might do, and as a means to artificially FORCE continued group cohesion by making those without guns dependent on those who've retained them for protection from serious threats. That's NOT the way to hold a group of people already under serious pressure together. It IS, however, an effective recipe for splintering the group further. As evidence, I point to the fact that while Shane was already intending to take off, Andrea had shown no such inclinations until she was treated like what she wanted and felt didn't matter nearly so much as the feelings of one old man taking inappropriate liberties with Andrea's right to choose for herself. The argument about someone shooting and that herd of Walkers hearing it was a weak-ass smokescreen and we all know it.

I'm truly impressed by Season 2's first episode though. It's powerful acting to make a previously positive character come off so suddenly and completely as a MAJOR self-involved, patronizing jerk.

[MikePizzoff]

Well, that was an awesome way to kick off the season! At least the first 40 minutes, for sure. After that it kinda lulled around, but didn't get too bad. I'd say it's definitely my second favorite episode of the series, thus far, falling short of ep 1 season 1.

I was also sitting there, just waiting for the zombies in the cars to start lashing out, only to be somewhat dumbfounded when none of them did anything.

Darryl and Dale are easily my two favorite characters on this show. Excited to see things really flesh out for them this season.

Finally - RV zombie! Best zombie in this show thus far, in my opinion. I loved the emotion of the bike zombie, but this dude was just awesomely terrifying.

[JDFP]

Hmm,
I really took an ENTIRELY different view of Andrea and Dale's interaction. Dale WAS coming off as a self-satisfied Father Knows Best sort of control freak. His whole "I'm not comfortable with you having your own gun right now", ESPECIALLY in light of the fact Andrea had just fought VEHEMENTLY for her life hand-to-screwdriver with that walker, came off patronizing as hell to me. Andrea's response to his statement about maybe expecting "a little gratitude for saving your life" really hit home/rung true for me. Her argument was both quite lucid AND ethical. Ie: "I didn't want your blood on my hands Dale. I just wanted to die on my own terms, not ripped apart by drooling freaks. You took that away from me Dale. It was my choice to make, and you took it away from me. Now you expect GRATITUDE?" Powerful stuff.

I'm truly impressed by Season 2's first episode though. It's powerful acting to make a previously positive character come off so suddenly and completely as a MAJOR self-involved, patronizing jerk.

I guess we just have a different perspective on it. Do you think if Andrea had put the gun together in the RV she would have hesitated in blasting the zombie (which would have possibly caused the death of everyone). I'm not so sure she wouldn't have done it. So, in my perspective, I think it's wise to not have someone toting around something that could kill them all by popping off a gun at the wrong time and attracting hordes of the ravenous undead in their direction. Then again, as you've pointed out, those who "have" had gun training have proben to be just as bad at popping off at the wrong time -- so I can understand entirely where you're coming from while seeing the other side of the argument as well. I guess an important question to ask would be: Would you want to be in a camp of survivors with people who didn't know how to properly have guns holding those guns or would you prefer for the firearms to be in the hands of those who were trained? Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative as I can see both sides of the argument.

The part that I think is hypocritical on Dale's behalf is the fact that he gives his whole Wrath of Khan speech on "the good of the many v. the good of the few or the one" in replacing the RV hose and taking an extra day for something that takes a few hours because he's wanting Sophia to be found alive without Carol going without her daughter. Meanwhile - he's denied Andrea her gun. So, he's chosen the good of one individual over the many in one case but in the other case the group over the individual - well, which is it Dale?

I think Andrea is being selfish in not giving appreciation to Dale for saving her life. I agree that it was her choice, but it was also Dale's choice to not allow his friend to kill herself. If I was facing the end of the world and being alone from someone I greatly cared about (and no doubt Dale thinks of Andrea as a type of daughter from how it appears) I very well would have done the exact same thing Dale would have done (I say probably, I don't know and none of us do unless we're in that situation) of not wanting to go on unless the other person goes with us. So, Andrea's motivation in killing herself was selfish - and it may have been selfish on Dale's behalf to want to save her life (he would have missed her) - but the out come of Andrea's selfishness would have been her death and the outcome of Dale's selfishness was in saving her life - so I'd have to support Dale on that issue.

I do like how they are fleshing him out to where he's just not a one-sided grandfatherly good-guy but rather multi-faceted - just as good and bad as the rest of them. I think "TWD" is doing an excellent job of setting up the characters as multi-dimensional the last few episodes (something it initially struggled with) and in that comparison is similar to the new "Battlestar: Galactica" where NO ONE was either very good or very evil but a mixed back of goodness and badness.

j.p.

[Vulture Lives]

I wasn't satisfied with the episode. I found myself questioning the actions of the characters too frequently. Why was Andrea clinking the gun parts together and talking to herself while hiding in the bathroom? Why didn't the commotion in the RV alert the rest of the herd? Why was nobody paying attention to the fact that Carl was crawling into a car with a dead body inside? Would Rick and Daryl really be able to identify Sophia's remains inside the zombie's stomach? It just seemed like a waste of time, and a silly excuse to show gore. Why were the zombies just sitting there like that in church? It was an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that maybe there were normal people sitting there; but after it's revealed that they're zombies, the behavior rings false.

Then the episode became the hour long search for Sophia. Sophia has been nothing but a background character at best, so it was hard to care; I just wanted them to get to the point already. Nothing really happened until the very end of the episode. I guess they can afford to pad the run time with 12 more episodes ahead of them.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the comic book series, which I recently started reading (I've read all 89 issues already). I don't think so, however, because I still enjoy episodes from the first season of the show. Oh, well... hopefully next week's episode will do more for me.

[kidgloves]

I wasn't satisfied with the episode. I found myself questioning the actions of the characters too frequently. Why was Andrea clinking the gun parts together and talking to herself while hiding in the bathroom? Why didn't the commotion in the RV alert the rest of the herd? Why was nobody paying attention to the fact that Carl was crawling into a car with a dead body inside? Would Rick and Daryl really be able to identify Sophia's remains inside the zombie's stomach? It just seemed like a waste of time, and a silly excuse to show gore. Why were the zombies just sitting there like that in church? It was an attempt to manipulate the audience into thinking that maybe there were normal people sitting there; but after it's revealed that they're zombies, the behavior rings false.

Then the episode became the hour long search for Sophia. Sophia has been nothing but a background character at best, so it was hard to care; I just wanted them to get to the point already. Nothing really happened until the very end of the episode. I guess they can afford to pad the run time with 12 more episodes ahead of them.

Maybe I'm spoiled by the comic book series, which I recently started reading (I've read all 89 issues already). I don't think so, however, because I still enjoy episodes from the first season of the show. Oh, well... hopefully next week's episode will do more for me.

Its already been established that the zombies remember things about their past. Its been canon for a long time so zombies sitting in a church in that part of the country shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I keep reading about this long long search for Sophia which didn't really start until 20 mins from the end.

[Vulture Lives]

Its already been established that the zombies remember things about their past. Its been canon for a long time so zombies sitting in a church in that part of the country shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

When was it established? I don't recall it ever being established in the Walking Dead universe.

EDIT: Come to think of it, in last year's season premiere, Morgan's zombified wife seemed to exhibit a bit of memory retention (although it could be argued that something simply alerted her to their presence in the house). Those zombies in the church, though... it was something about their body posture... I don't know, the moment just felt false.

[GRMonLI]

Interesting discussions....but what I want to know is why everyone wanted to save Andrea at the CDC...but nobody seemed to care that Jacqui decided to stay too. I actually liked her character a lot..she seemed like a strong "everyday" kind of woman who did what had to be done.

I personally have worked in suicide prevention for 15 years and if I ever heard anyone say "I saved your life...arent you grateful" after someone else thought about or attempted suicide...I woudl freak.

While I totally believe in being on the side of life, in the FICTIONAL world of the living dead.....Dale went too far. But remember..it is all for dramatic effect and plotlines!!!

I still dont know why nobody "saved" Jacqui. LOL LOL LOL

[mpokera]

Overall I really enjoyed the episode and think it bodes well for the new season. I thought the first section was very tense and scary as the zombie herd went by. At first I was a little disturbed by them hiding under the cars since they made such a big deal of the zombies using smell in season one but I thought Kirkman explained it pretty well on 'Talking Dead' and I am willing to accept his reasoning. I did have a big problem with the RV attack tho, even though I thought it was certainly scary. Several things have been mentioned here and I agree, the biggest issue was why only one zombie happened to enter? Especially after the quite loud fighting and screaming was going on? Isnt that exactly the kind of sounds that would draw the rest of the horde immediately? And in my opinion Andrea proved she couldnt be trusted with a gun by the fact she obviously would have used it in the RV to kill the one zombie, thereby drawing the attention of the hundreds passing outside and likely dooming the entire party.

[JDFP]

Dale went too far. But remember..it is all for dramatic effect and plotlines!!!

I still dont know why nobody "saved" Jacqui. LOL LOL LOL

Really, he should have waved goodbye to her and said: "Well, guess you've decided you want to kill yourself. Take care! Adios, amigo!" and then headed off with the rest of them? You don't do that to someone you love as Dale obviously loves Andrea. I think he's going too far in putting her into the role of a daughter as she is not his daughter (i.e. the "who holds the gun debate") but the wrong move would have been in letting her kill herself when he obviously loves her. It took great courage and strength for Dale to say: "You know what? The hell with it, if you're not leaving I'm not either." and plopping down beside her and I give the man great kudos for it. He had the guts to stand up to telling her how much he really cared. And good for him for saving her life. He should be commended for the action, in my opinion.

Saying she should be grateful is completely accurate, she should be, and if she doesn't end up running off somewhere there will be a time somewhere down the road I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't realize how grateful she is in still being alive and how much she owes to Dale for still being around.

Of course, I could be wrong, she could be cursing Dale as she's ripped apart by zombies. :D

j.p.

[Vulture Lives]

Its already been established that the zombies remember things about their past. Its been canon for a long time so zombies sitting in a church in that part of the country shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

You know, it really hasn't been established, in the Walking Dead universe, that zombies remember things about their past. In last year's season finale, Jenner goes into detail about his research on the zombified brain. He specifically states that nothing about an individual returns. Memories are gone. Remember the display of his wife's brain?

[shootemindehead]

Is it just me or is Andrea not turning into a major bitch? I felt bad for Dale

EDIT: I just thought of this, but it bugs the hell out of me: WHY WERE THERE DEAD PEOPLE SITTING IN THEIR CARS THAT WEREN'T ZOMBIES? Did they die from Captain Trips that broke out the same time as the zombie apocalypse? If they were attacked by zombies and partially devoured they WOULD HAVE BECOME zombies; but they were not! They were just dead people sitting in their cars. Can someone please logically explain this to me?

j.p.

I was on Andrea's side in that conversation and a really well written dialogue piece it was too. Yep, I did feel bad for Dale, but I like the Dale character. But, she's correct. She'd made her choice clearly and wanted to go out quick. I certainly see her point. She gave up her choice because Dale force her to do so, with the threat of losing his own.

On a side note, though, I am not entirely happy with the Andrea opting out of the group plot line. It doesn't really make any sense to me, other than to write into the story a part where she and Shane become an item. If that's the case, I'll puke. Shane needs to die and that soap opera crap needs to end fast.

As for the dead people in some of the cars, perhaps they took themselves out, but we didn't see the wounds. Funny, my wife said the same thing when the wee lad was bending over the corpse to get the bunch of machette-like weapons.

-- -------- Post added at 08:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 PM ----------


Finally - RV zombie! Best zombie in this show thus far, in my opinion. I loved the emotion of the bike zombie, but this dude was just awesomely terrifying.

Yeh, agree, he was a creepy git. I think the guy playing him did really well too. It was like he sort of recognised where he should be going, as if he owned an RV before, ha ha.

10/10 for the make up, no doubt. Nicotero is working his socks off.

-- -------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:33 PM ----------


At first I was a little disturbed by them hiding under the cars since they made such a big deal of the zombies using smell in season one

Yeh, that entered my head too. Which is why I thought it was a fantastically dumb idea, both in the book and the series.

It just endows the living dead with a super sense that going to come around and bite the show on its arse.

[sandrock74]

About the dead bodies in the cars thing...what if someone died of a brain aneurysm? Technically, isn't that death due to brain trauma? Would that keep someone from reanimating? I don't think that's ever been addressed in any zombie film. Maybe the bodies in the cars that didn't reanimate were people who couldn't handle the stress and died from a brain aneurysm?

Also, the issue of people coming back as zombies even when not bitten thing wasn't immediately known in the comic for a bit, either. At the start, it was assumed only the bitten became zombies. I think this is a reveal the show is holding off on for a bit...

[Wyldwraith]

Really, he should have waved goodbye to her and said: "Well, guess you've decided you want to kill yourself. Take care! Adios, amigo!" and then headed off with the rest of them? You don't do that to someone you love as Dale obviously loves Andrea.

You're right, you don't. What you should do is everything you REASONABLY can do to PERSUADE your loved one to make what *you* FEEL is the right decision in the time you've got (in a time-limited situation such as that), but I'm sorry it's JUST WRONG in my vehement yet humble opinion to emotionally blackmail someone into passing up an instant and absolutely painless death for what, in all likelihood from everything they knew then and what they know now, will be one of two equally horrible deaths. Either A) Suffering the terror and excruciating pain of (temporarily) surviving a vicious flesh-rending attack by one or more flesh-hungry "drooling freaks", and then having to experience a slow, demonstrably miserable and agonizing wasting sickness that forces you to choose between experiencing a violently brutal "euthanasia" before dying and subsequently reanimating, and/or foregoing said bullet or blunt trauma and, but being tortured mentally and emotionally by the thought of what your body will become once the sickness finally kills you. Or B) Experiencing the equally, albeit different, horrifying sensation(s) of being EATEN ALIVE a mouthful at a time (a 1-2 Walker attack), or ripped apart as you scream, gurgle and, finally, gasp out your last agonizingly conscious breath before the small blessing that is severe shock finally drives you blessedly from consciousness so you don't have to experience the last few moments of your life as a hunk of meat and viscera being fought over by your ravenously mindless pack of ghoulish slayers. Do I, and would I, understand the temptation to "make the right decision" (In my opinion, assuming for a moment I felt as Dale was portrayed as feeling at that time) for my loved one in such a situation because I, selfishly, didn't want to lose them/go on with life without them? ABSOLUTELY!!! However, that's not the most important question to be asked about such a situation, and the choices one could/would make as a result of that situation. The most important question to be asked (Again, IMO) is: "Do I/Would I HAVE THE RIGHT to give in to that temptation and take such an INCREDIBLY VITAL DECISION **AWAY** from my loved one in THAT situation? For me, and again in my very-strongly-held opinion, the answer is a definitive, unequivocal, ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! To do so is, (one more time: IMHO) a greater violation of said Loved One (Andrea, in Dale's case) than if he'd held her pinned to the ground and RAPED HER. What Dale did in robbing her of her self-determination by victimizing her via playing on her desire not to be responsible for HIS death wasn't simply WRONG, it was EVIL.

Here's one of the Definitions of Evil I found on Wikipedia: This being the source link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil#cite_note-12 or 13. (Peck: 1978/1992,p.298):
Abuses political (emotional) power ("the imposition of one's will upon others by overt or covert coercion")

Dale certainly imposed his will upon Andrea by overt coercion. This makes his act, however the character or another might justify it, by the statements/viewpoints and definition given (Peck's/Wikipedia's and mine) by literal definition: Evil. Now, whether one can make a successful and valid argument that Dale's act of Evil is justifiable as an act of "Necessary Evil" is a question I will reserve judgment on until I've read what the proponents of the Dale-character's decision have had their say.


I think he's going too far in putting her into the role of a daughter as she is not his daughter (i.e. the "who holds the gun debate") but the wrong move would have been in letting her kill herself when he obviously loves her. It took great courage and strength for Dale to say: "You know what? The hell with it, if you're not leaving I'm not either." and plopping down beside her and I give the man great kudos for it. He had the guts to stand up to telling her how much he really cared. And good for him for saving her life. He should be commended for the action, in my opinion.

I agree that Dale compounds the problem (and the negative effect of his actions upon Andrea), as well as Andrea's perception that she no longer belonged with the group once Dale pulled Shane into the argument and Shane gave his little (and obviously hypocritical then and there to both the Andrea-character and myself) speech about not wanting guns floating around the group in the hands of the untrained members of the group, even as Shane advocates giving the guns of the people he doesn't think should have them to Dale, who has no more training than Andrea, in the same breath. Dale treating Andrea not only as a daughter-figure, but a daughter figure he sees it as only right and proper that he continue to determine what is in her best interests for her, in the same way he considers it right and proper to dismiss and/or ignore her attempts to choose and act for herself as the grown woman she is only continues to compound the damage Dale is doing to both Andrea's mental and emotional states.

I will go a step further and restate my opinion that Dale loving Andrea justifies his coercing her out of the choice she'd made about as much as a stalker's "love" justifies said stalker in killing the boyfriend of the object of his affection after said stalker witnesses said boyfriend being unfaithful to his girlfriend, who the stalker is obsessed with. To put it another way, Dale's "love" in NO WAY justifies forcing his forcing her to live by entering into an unwanted "suicide pact" ("You die, I die" is exactly what that is) with Andrea against her will. It didn't take great courage and strength for an old, terribly lonely man, who's been terribly lonely for years before the dead began to rise, to choose to end his life if Andrea refused to continue easing his loneliness. Once he did that, Dale had put himself in a "win-win situation" FOR HIMSELF. Either his effort to selfishly coerce Andrea into continuing to live until dying a horrible death she was DESPERATE TO AVOID would succeed because Andrea was a far more ethical, principled individual than himself, and Andrea would still be around to ease the loneliness he felt and continue to give him a purpose (trying to make Andrea's decisions for her "for her own good" as if she were a child), or his coercion would fail and he wouldn't have to face his pain and loneliness without her because he'd be dead too. Simultaneous with achieving this win-win situation for himself, Dale (again, selfishly and fearfully) placed Andrea in a lose-lose situation. If she didn't give in to his coercion she'd suffer guilt for her last moments instead of the peace Dale had torn away, and if she did give in as it turned out she chose to because of an ethical and principled nature utterly foreign to Dale, she was forced to continue struggling through each terror-and-misery-filled day until the probability of her unimaginably horrible death (the fear of not knowing exactly when it would arrive having been with her every moment from the time she left the CDC with her blackmailer and would-be keeper until that unspeakable death finally arrived to claim her.

No, great courage and strength on Dale's part would have been wanting her to live so he wouldn't be alone again and so he wouldn't have to grieve for her, but after every one of his reasonable and ethical attempts to persuade her to come with him had failed would have been saying: (Dale): "You're sure this is what you want kiddo?" (Andrea): "100%,....I just...don't want to die being ripped apart by a bunch of drooling freaks!" Then (Dale): "I wish there was something more,...something I could say or do that'd convince you to come with me....but I can't force you to live for my sake when this is what you want. I...I love you Andrea, and I'm going to miss you more than I could ever say. Please...." (Andrea): "Dale...don't do this to yourself. It's my decision, and I'm choosing to go and be with Amy. As Rick would say, this is on me, not you. Now go, before it's too late. The others still need you...I love you too, but I just can't live this nightmare one more day. I hope you'll understand, and maybe forgive me for running out the back door, but either way, this is something I have to do. (Andrea & Dale hug, tears trickle down the old guy's grizzled unshaven face and he tentatively starts for the door, stops, but as he starts to turn back Andrea gives him a gentle shove towards the door. Dale leaves, breaking into a lumbering lope with his head down as he rushes from the building seconds before being thrown to the ground a couple dozen feet from the hole Rick blasted in the window when the bomb(s) go off. Woodenly, numb and all but expressionless, Dale climbs aboard the RV and the remaining survivors move out and away from the collapsed and still-burning CDC.)

THAT would be great wisdom AND strength. To realize if he REALLY loves her, and he's convinced she's lucid and knows what she's doing, that he has to let her go for her sake...however hard it will be for him without her. It would've taken great courage to climb behind the wheel of that RV and slowly head out with the rest of the convoy, when it feels like a part of him just died too, and it's tearing a great chunk out of his heart and leaving behind a hole it doesn't feel like it will ever close to go on, but go on he does, because he knows he has to look to the needs of the living even as he mourns the dead.

No, what Dale did didn't take guts. All it took was being too selfish to be able to TRULY empathize with just how badly Amy's loss had broken Andrea, because he was too busy focusing on the fear of losing someone who'd become HIS anchor. All it took was being more afraid of facing the loneliness he'd known since his wife's death PLUS the current nightmare-reality than he was afraid of dying. Plopping down next to Andrea, and in doing so forcing her hand....that was about Dale and his needs. Not Andrea and her needs.


Saying she should be grateful is completely accurate, she should be, and if she doesn't end up running off somewhere there will be a time somewhere down the road I wouldn't be surprised if she doesn't realize how grateful she is in still being alive and how much she owes to Dale for still being around.

So, to recap: Andrea should be GRATEFUL that, on the heels of her sister's tragic loss...that was part of an event that demonstrated just how sudden and brutal, or slow and agonizing the end could come, and how arbitrary who made it through another day and for who today was THE DAY it would all end so hideously...That Dale ripped a choice she was at peace with away from her by threatening to douse her hands with his blood, and that to really grind the salt into the wound his actions had torn wide open in her he casually plucks away her threadbare safety blanket, because HE "isn't comfortable" with her having her father's gun. Demonstrating definitively and absolutely so far as Andrea is concerned that all Dale gives a damn about is how Dale thinks things should be. That she's just supposed to shut up, let him pat her on the head and say "Don't worry sweetie, Daddy is here to make all these big bad decisions for you. Now, give Daddy a smile and run along, and maybe when you've shown me you can be a Good Girl I'll let you have your Ga-Gun back.

People say things a lot that are over-dramatic on our beloved forums, but I'm serious ass a heart attack about this. If I was in Andrea's shoes and Dale had done what he'd just done, and THEN taken my gun and forced me to feel vulnerable and exposed and (hatefully) dependent on others, I would have stabbed him right in the throat with the pig-sticker they "approved" of me having. Worst they could do would be a bullet to the brain, and a) I would have delivered justice for how Dale had violated me, and b) Gotten back my right to go out without being ripped apart alive. Quick and painlessly.

THAT is what I think of Dale's sanctimonious "Not thinking a little GRATITUDE would be asking too much!!!" Yay, I'm stuck in a group primarily consisting of the opposite sex, one of whom believes they have a Divine Mandate to make even the most fundamentally, intimately personal of choices for me via the most despicable sort of coercion. Now, just to remove all doubt that, despite having demonstrated myself to be among the calmest, most level-headed members of the group, I'm a second-class-citizen of this little village on wheels and I'm expected to be GRATEFUL for having my most important decision made for me and forced into being infuriatingly dependent on individuals who've all demonstrated they're either psychologically or morally deficient compared to me. Then, just for giggles, they continue to underscore just what bullshit their little "No guns for untrained people" argument really was, as Lori is casually offered first Rick's hand-cannon, and then the snub-nose Daryle took off the suicide-camper.

Yea, homicide is sounding more and more reasonable with every passing moment. After all, at least if I kill the bastard trying to turn me back into a child the rest of the group will have to stop and take stock of just how vile the treatment I'd been subjected to in the course of deciding what to do about me.


Of course, I could be wrong, she could be cursing Dale as she's ripped apart by zombies. :D
Realistically, expect the cursing. Looking at it from Andrea's perspective it wouldn't matter to me if life improved a million times over. I still wouldn't EVER forgive Dale for what he did, and wouldn't so much as yell a "Dale, behind you!" if a Walker was staggering up behind his old sanctimonius self. Andrea's being WAY more tolerant and forgiving than I would be by simply making plans to bail. No doubt in the wake of Carl's shooting the group control-freak He-Men will only grow even more neurotic about who has "the right" to carry a firearm.

That said, TV being what it is: I wouldn't be surprised if you turn out to be right about some completely unrealistic touchy-feely reconciliation between Andrea & Dale. I'm still aggravated she didn't just assault Dale and take her gun back. He's an old guy, and she's in her prime. The argument about the Walker-Herd hearing the shot if she'd had a gun is VERY tenuous IMO. Worst-case, they woulda swarmed the RV. No reason to believe that would've lead to anyone else being discovered.

Total non-sequitor: Have you noticed Daryl is almost entirely out of X-bow bolts? Wonder why he hasn't been retrieving them given the penetration they've gotten. With the broadhead entirely out the back of the skull, by definition the wound tract is wide enough to pull the bolt straight through undamaged.

[Vulture Lives]

Those zombies in the church, though... it was something about their body posture... I don't know, the moment just felt false.

I apologize for quoting myself, but I wanted to clarify my point. Whether the zombies retain any memory or not (according to Jenner and TS-19, they don't), there was still something wrong with their body posture as they sat in the church. They sat perfectly upright and stared straight ahead. That would require good muscle memory. Zombies never seem to be that coordinated. I would imagine the zombies to be more crumpled and listless in their seats.

Like I said, the idea behind the scene was to momentarily trick the audience into thinking that the main characters possibly happened upon other living people. The zombies sit with good posture to sell the idea... it just seemed like the show abandoned staying true to zombie behavior for the sake of cheap suspense.

[mpokera]

Like I said, the idea behind the scene was to momentarily trick the audience into thinking that the main characters possibly happened upon other living people. The zombies sit with good posture to sell the idea... it just seemed like the show abandoned staying true to zombie behavior for the sake of cheap suspense.

I agree the idea was for the momentary flash of hope of them being living people followed by the shock of them being zombies. That being said, I dont think there was a need for them to be sitting perfectly to accomplish the same thing. They could have easily been slumped forward across the pews and still would have been just as effective I think. This is still nitpicking IMO though and I am perfectly willing to suspend disbelief on small points like this on such a well made show.

As for the Dale/Andrea debate I have to weigh in on Dale's side here. I understand Andrea's point and her feelings but I believe suicide to be a selfish option and a mortal sin in any case, and in the situation they are in? Where only a very small number of people remain anyway as far as they know? We are talking about the very survival of the species here, for someone to just 'check out' is the most selfish thing they could possibly do. Andrea is a vital capable member of the party and the rest of them count on her, not just Dale. The dynamic between the two of them seems way different than the comic as he does seem to feel much more paternally toward her.

Now that being said, I agree that they should have felt just the same toward the others wanting to just stay and die, even Jenner. He was a scientist, with certainly quite a bit of medical knowledge, think that could come in handy when people get hurt/sick? If I am in Rick/Shane's shoes Jenner is coming with us even if we have to knock him out and drag him. Yes its wrong to kidnap people, but the whole point of this show is that the old rules dont apply now, its the apocalypse people! Im not going to mistreat him, but his knowledge is something we have to have.

[Vulture Lives]

I agree the idea was for the momentary flash of hope of them being living people followed by the shock of them being zombies. That being said, I dont think there was a need for them to be sitting perfectly to accomplish the same thing. They could have easily been slumped forward across the pews and still would have been just as effective I think. This is still nitpicking IMO though and I am perfectly willing to suspend disbelief on small points like this on such a well made show.

I agree that we're nitpicking here, but if the zombies were slumped over and more lifeless looking, the audience would probably be more inclined to think that something is wrong right off the bat. Anyway, I don't mean to harp on this particular nitpick. It was far from my biggest issue with the episode.

[Wyldwraith]

As for the Dale/Andrea debate I have to weigh in on Dale's side here. I understand Andrea's point and her feelings but I believe suicide to be a selfish option and a mortal sin in any case, and in the situation they are in? Where only a very small number of people remain anyway as far as they know? We are talking about the very survival of the species here, for someone to just 'check out' is the most selfish thing they could possibly do. Andrea is a vital capable member of the party and the rest of them count on her, not just Dale. The dynamic between the two of them seems way different than the comic as he does seem to feel much more paternally toward her.
Now that being said, I agree that they should have felt just the same toward the others wanting to just stay and die, even Jenner. He was a scientist, with certainly quite a bit of medical knowledge, think that could come in handy when people get hurt/sick? If I am in Rick/Shane's shoes Jenner is coming with us even if we have to knock him out and drag him. Yes its wrong to kidnap people, but the whole point of this show is that the old rules dont apply now, its the apocalypse people! Im not going to mistreat him, but his knowledge is something we have to have.

So what you're saying then is: "In the wake of society's collapse, the ends justify the means, and the only rules/taboos that matter are the ones you feel should go on mattering, and are quite willing to use FORCE to MAKE others abide by your rules/taboos.

Andrea WAS a vital and capable member of the group. Now she's just Dale's pet. Her right to choose for herself no longer exists, and she's been forced into dependance on the others since they've disarmed her and made her rely on people she wants to leave at the first opportunity.

You can't FORCE someone to "Opt In" for "the good of the species." You can do your best to persuade them to go on, but once you begin forcing people to go on against their will you're doing it to serve your needs, not what's in their interests. Dressing it up as being "for the survival of the species" is just a justification. The bottom line of what you expressed is this: "If someone is useful to me and mine, we will use force to make them continue to live as our indentured servants, because we need their know-how or the increase in productivity their presence gives us."

Helluva way to save the species. Assuming you survive the rise and fall of the undead, long before the zombies are finished you will have created a huge slave-class out of all those who don't want to go on that you think you can get some productivity out of. History is on your side however, since enslaving those with less firepower than yourself has lead societies to centuries of vastly increased productivity. Of course it's a sin....but hey, not a sin you think is important to avoid right?

Slippery slope eh?

[Moon Knight]

Great start to the season! I really liked how most of the characters were given the spotlight and not just reserved to the background.

Daryl helping T-Dogg was a great example on how smart and tactical he really is. He's not just a dumb racist redneck. I'm really looking forward to where his character goes this season.

[bd2999]

I liked the episode quite a bit. Everything seems to be going pretty well overall in regards to the show.

I do agree with some here saying Andrea was being a bit of a you know what. They were caught offguard so her initial surprise is ok, although probably not totally inexcusable. Others could not warn anyone because the threat of everyone dying. It was panic on her part to try to keep putting the gun together in the bathroom while the ghoul wandered around outside. If she could not get it together when all was calm now was not the time to try. It was the time to hide and hope that you were not found. She got herself caught and nearly killed everyone. She was making to much noise anyway with her screams. Dale did save her, or at least give her a chance with the screwdriver. If the gun was together I think she would have shot the zombie and it would have been the end of her and everyone.

So I think Dale was in the right to a point there, she does not seem that responsible with a firearm. That said she has a right to be mad at him for stopping her from killing herself. I guess if that is what she wanted he should not have stopped her. But at the same time that is a very final decision to make, down the line she will likely thank Dale for keeping her alive. Even if now she does not. Even if she never does it does not give her the right to potentially take everyone's life in her hands and kill them all because she wants to die. I honestly think they should just give her a gun and tell her to go off if she wants to die that badly.

I think gun training would be best for everyone, at least the ones who are not used to using them. What are the chances they could get a head shot unless something is right up on them? Good episode.

[mpokera]

Helluva way to save the species. Assuming you survive the rise and fall of the undead, long before the zombies are finished you will have created a huge slave-class out of all those who don't want to go on that you think you can get some productivity out of. History is on your side however, since enslaving those with less firepower than yourself has lead societies to centuries of vastly increased productivity. Of course it's a sin....but hey, not a sin you think is important to avoid right?

Slippery slope eh?

Yes, its a terribly slippery slope, I agree. And all of your points are quite valid Wraith, what I was trying to get at is what I feel is a central theme of the comics. How much Rick is forced to abandon the old societal norms, many times being forced into choices that would have been considered wrong, maybe even evil in order to keep his charges alive with a chance. How much he finds himself being forced to turn into something he hates because he is the one always forced to make the hard choices.

As for the marginilization of Andrea, or 'Dale's Pet' as you say, I completely disagree with Dale withholding her gun, I never said I supported that part, and I think Shane was wrong to take his side without at least getting more information. She certainly had ample opportunity to use the gun on herself before that point anyway, and I agree he certainly had no right to keep her personal gun from her, certainly not without discussing it with the other members of the group which is what he should have done if he had concerns in that area, why did he just now decide this?

The idea of a 'huge slave class' is ludicrous by the way, the whole point is that there is only a very small amount of people left now, and if someone is totally dedicated to leaving or 'opting out' by suicide there will certainly be ample opportunities for that. But I dont think anyone can be allowed to make a spur of the moment decision like that in this situation.

Accepting the role of leader of a band such as that in a horrible situation like that means that one will have to make horrible decisions sometimes. Again I think it is the very nature of what makes the show so entertaining, sure zombies are awesome, but its seeing the people being forced through horrific situations that no one should ever have to be in and watching them try to survive while retaining as much humanity as they can.

[AcesandEights]

Just saw it on DVR a few hours ago. Pretty decent start to the season. There were a few things I took minor issue with (dragging pace & unnecessary decision to field dress a zombie), but let a lot of it slide, for the most part.

Put me down for Dale and Shane sounding like pompous overweening asses :)

[rongravy]

I thought the whole gutting the zombie part was kind of lame. You can't see it, but you get to hear what was definitely a bit too much as far as the gutting is concerned. Sounded like he was hacking away at a giant rice crispie treat.
The show was ok, but I need to be careful about getting my hopes up too high. It can dampen things.
And Dale is being a complete butthole.

[ProfessorChaos]

i wish that i'd stuck to my guns and avoided all trailers, clips, etc, as i felt like already seen half the episode before it even aired. even at that, it was still great. great moments of tension, drama, and excitement, topped off with amazing special effects/make-up. the cgi kills were more authentic looking and the walkers looked gnarlier than ever.

the casting, writing, and performances by the actors are all phenomenal, specifically glenn and daryl. stephen yeun is really bringing glenn from the comics to life in a very satisfying way. he's exactly how i always imagined the character would be...just the way he reacted and shifted uncomfortably in his seat when the RV broke down...great stuff. and norman reedus' daryl went from a redneck dipshit to an extremely valuable asset to the group and team player. it will be interesting to see where his loyalties lie when his big brother shows back up....anywho, glad to see the writers fleshing out these characters more.

my only negative was that i too felt that the scene checking the walker's stomach for bits of sophia was over-the-top and not really needed. not that i found it that disgusting, it just took a long time and seemed to drag on.

i wonder how long it's going to be till we hear what jenner told rick and merle comes back into the picture...very much looking forward to meeting a certain few new characters next week and whatever else is in store for us.

[bassman]

i wonder how long it's going to be till we hear what jenner told rick and merle comes back into the picture... .

That seemed more out of place to me than the gutting scene. "The doctor at the CDC told me something. He told me.....he told me.....well it doesn't matter." WTF? Probably the cheesiest line of dialogue in the series so far.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, that was a bit silly. forgot about that part.

having read the comics, i'm about 90% certain in my head that i know what was said, but i just wanna hear it officially.

[bassman]

I'll have to go back and check, but I think Lincoln also looked directly into the camera during that opening scene. Everything about that scene didn't sit right with me. Everyone else is worried about Dale and Andrea, while im over here wondering which one of the writer's kids wrote and directed the opening 5 minutes....

[ProfessorChaos]

fuck, forgot about that part too....yeah, that opening was a bit weaksauce. should've had another flashback of lori the whore and shane the rapist getting it on.:p

[Vulture Lives]

I'll have to go back and check, but I think Lincoln also looked directly into the camera during that opening scene. Everything about that scene didn't sit right with me. Everyone else is worried about Dale and Andrea, while im over here wondering which one of the writer's kids wrote and directed the opening 5 minutes....

I agree that the writing during the opening scene was bad. It definitely didn't set a good tone for the rest of the episode.

[shootemindehead]

I thought the whole gutting the zombie part was kind of lame. You can't see it, but you get to hear what was definitely a bit too much as far as the gutting is concerned. Sounded like he was hacking away at a giant rice crispie treat.
The show was ok, but I need to be careful about getting my hopes up too high. It can dampen things.
And Dale is being a complete butthole.

I thought it was great!!!!!!!!!!

Yuk.

My wife nearly puked.

-- -------- Post added at 04:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:48 AM ----------


That seemed more out of place to me than the gutting scene. "The doctor at the CDC told me something. He told me.....he told me.....well it doesn't matter." WTF? Probably the cheesiest line of dialogue in the series so far.

Yep, that was really clumsy. In fact, i thought the whole monologue at the beginning was badly handled. I think we all know or suspect what Janner said. But, mentioning it to Morgan is redundant and either way it was only inserted to remind the audience of the scene in series 1.

[Wyldwraith]

.
If the gun was together I think she would have shot the zombie and it would have been the end of her and everyone.
This line of reasoning keeps coming up. What I don't get is why so many are willing to assume a gunshot from Andrea in the RV would've gotten anyone but Andrea killed. After all, the zombie herd was already in the area, so not like she's drawing zombies to them that weren't already there. That, and if the hiding under vehicles strategy was working, why would it lead anyone to believe that a zombie swarm rushing the trailer would have been "the end of everyone." Why? Were the zombies drawn into the RV by this hypothetical gunshot from Andrea suddenly going to stop, drop and roll under the cars? As for Andrea not being responsible: Look at how it's been the 2 guys with training that have caused or almost caused all the ACTUAL problems created by irresponsible shooting.

Again, all I'll say is that forcing people to make decisions your way, when there's a great possibility that doing so will lead to a horribly violent, or violent and then agonizingly wasting death is immoral IMO. I love one of the comments from the preview of Episode 2. "The group's split up, and we're weak." Well well, is it any wonder? They keep splitting up like its an episode of Scooby Do, and the loudest personalities are doing things to alienate members of the group. Not the path leading to unity and cohesion, that's for sure.

[Mr_Shadow]

You know, it really hasn't been established, in the Walking Dead universe, that zombies remember things about their past. In last year's season finale, Jenner goes into detail about his research on the zombified brain. He specifically states that nothing about an individual returns. Memories are gone. Remember the display of his wife's brain?

Jenner's wife was killed only a few moments after reanimation, they didn't really study any memory. They based it off what part of her brain was still functioning after her death, who knows maybe after a while other parts of the brain slowly "wake up" and they partially remember parts of their former selves.

I'm pretty surprised Daryl is still hanging with the group, he must actually care for some of them. If my brother was missing and I knew he was still alive, I would of left everyone the moment after the camp was attacked seeing Meryl wasn't there. But he stayed and helped dispose of the bodies the next day. He's capable of surviving on his own and living off the land, why stay with the rest who are holding him back? Putting him in more danger.

[Vulture Lives]

Jenner's wife was killed only a few moments after reanimation, they didn't really study any memory. They based it off what part of her brain was still functioning after her death, who knows maybe after a while other parts of the brain slowly "wake up" and they partially remember parts of their former selves.

Your theory could end up being correct, but it's just speculation on your part. I was told that memory retention among zombies has been "established as canon for a long time." Maybe that's true in Romero's zombie universe, but it hasn't been established in the Walking Dead universe. In fact, Jenner's research from last year's season finale seems to strongly suggest otherwise. You could speculate that Jenner's research was possibly incomplete... you could speculate all day long about a lot of different things... but we have next to no reason to doubt Jenner's research at this point in the story.

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I can think of a few good reasons for Daryl to stay with the group. Almost all of them are the basic common sense stuff of group abilities vs solo capacities though, such as: What happens if he takes the sort of tumble down an incline that Rick did when leaving the highway to go after Sophia, but breaks a leg? If he was alone that'd be a death sentence. With the group it'd just mean a splint and becoming a passenger in their RV slash ambulance. Plus, maybe he realizes that trying to find his brother off on his own would be next to impossible and would get him killed because sooner or later he'd get caught up in his micro-tracking, and a Walker would get the drop on him. Can't watch your own back and all. I think he's the fair type, and thinks if he's benefiting by being with the group, he needs to "pay his own way" as it were.

[fishfast41]

Ok here goes .. I loved it, great episode,after waiting so long, I'm thrilled that this was soooo good. Great character development here,Daryl and Dale, especially. Daryl obviously really cares about these other people. Check the look on his face as he explains to Carol that searching for Sophia at night would be pointless and dangerous.He didn't even hesitate for a second to help T-Dog.Did anyone notice the SS logo on his bike's gas tank? Extreme situations like this bring out the best and the worst in people,and this guy obviously has changed for the better. Great stuff, and well acted.We see the opposite in Dale. He's been The Grandfather of The Western World, an obvious good guy till now. I agree that his actions at the CDC were wrong. He should not have coerced Andrea as he did.Very selfish. The sequence where they argue about it was beautifully written and acted. This guy's worse side is being brought out by the situation.More great stuff here. Now for the bad. These people act like complete morons , given the situation they are in. Shane talks about firearms training as being necessary..He is correct here. But..... WHY IN THE HELL HAVEN"T THEY BEEN DOING THIS SINCE THE BEGINNING? They had some guns , now they have a bag full of guns.Enough for everyone to have one. Kids included. Weapons acquisition and training everyone should be a HUGE priority here. Throughout the show so far, no one has shown any interest in this. WTF? They made a big deal out of going back to Atlanta to get the bag of guns,putting themselves in extreme danger doing so. Why? Was this the only bag of guns in the world? Obviously not,because outside the CDC, we see lots of dead soldiers and their weapons and they don't even take a minute to pick any up. They had time to siphon gas, why not to pick up a few weapons? And why not just poke a hole in the bottom of the gas tank and collect the fuel in a pan, much faster. Ok, what about security?? We saw last season that the zombies like to sit in cars when not walking around. So these dingalings start wandering aimlessly through a huge traffic accident,children included.And half of the adults are not armed in any way!!! The people who are armed should be close to and guarding those who are scavenging, ALWAYS! The only sensible thing they do in this area is have Dale posted on the RV's roof with his binoculars.Any time they stop, guards should be posted, and armed people should check the area BEFORE any unarmed person is allowed out of a vehicle. Let's go back to 1st season for a moment. These idiots are partying and drinking around a campfire,with NO ONE keeping watch.Didn't we hear Morgan say in the first episode that the zombies are more active at night? Well, they certainly paid the price for such stupidity. BUT DIDN'T THEY LEARN FROM THAT LITTLE SMORGASBORD? You would think that people with any common sense at all would decide to revamp their security procedures after that. Maybe show a little interest in teaching everyone proper firearms use? I get that this is entertainment, not a survival documentary, but I'm having trouble with believability here.Our heroes should not act like fools with basic survival, when they are in a survival situation. Don't get me wrong, I really like this show,but this realllllly needs fixing.

[bassman]

Everybody keeps mentioning the bike with the SS logo. I was always under the impression that was Merle's bike. He was the real racist and in the first season you see it sitting around the camp and Daryl drives a pick up truck with the bike in the bed. I think he just ditched his truck in favor of Merle's motorcycle in season two. Makes sense to me, anyway. Merle was the "white power"-spouting racist wearing leather clothing(a staple of bikers), while Daryl was the hunter in the sleeve-less shirt, crossbow, and old pick up truck.

There's also a special feature on the SE blu ray/dvd where Laurie Holden is sitting on the bike and pointing to the logo saying "this is NOT mine". :lol:

[fishfast41]

Hmmm I'll buy it about the bike being Merle's. That didn't even occur to me. Guess I'm too hung up on the perimeter security thing. lol Good call. :)

[AcesandEights]

I noticed the sig runes (how could you miss them), but that's part & parcel for some 1%ers, so I didn't pay too much more attention to it aside from noting the inclusion.

[fishfast41]

I took them to be part of the whole redneck/racist thing with Daryl and Merle,that's why I mentioned them in connection with Daryl's change for the better.

[bassman]

That's definitely one way to look at it, but I can't recall Daryl ever being particularly racist? Maybe i'm forgetting but I would think he would have called T-Dog out for being black while he was angry with him for leaving Merle on the roof. So from that i've kinda suspected that Merle was the real racist, while Daryl is just hot-headed, but actually an okay guy.

Or maybe it's because I really like Daryl now and don't want to see him as racist? :lol:

[shootemindehead]

Maybe it's just a bike he nicked?

[kidgloves]

I like Sawyer .............. sorry i mean Daryl. I think he sees the group as a family he never had

[Thorn]

I loved the premier, a couple of things that bothered me some of which have been discussed here and on the talking Dead. The seeming lack of fear of fluids after taking so many precautions to avoid them prior or at least stating "don't get it in your eyes" and wearing a face mask to prevent just that from happening in season 1.

Andrea had splatter all over her face and near her mouth. I would have freaked out immediately and gone into "clean it mode", T-Dog had an open wound on his arm and he was covered with a corpse? Normal infections aside that is a huge risk.

As for the corpses in the cars, this just did not bother me, it could be that the people died from dehydration, suicide, hunger, old wounds, sickness, temperature... anything. While you can not say (and I will admit you have to stretch your mind to accept it) they could have been reanimated at on time and put down in some cases by other groups moving through the area.

People could have locked themselves in their cars, and laid low while a herd was about eating others and died from heat stroke as they sat in silence praying to god the dead would walk away... too afraid to roll down the window or run. You can explain it off, or at least I can.

As for Andrea, yes it was really crappy of Dale to force her hand that way, though I would do the same. I am sorry I do not give up easily, and I won't let my friends. If they hate me for it well, so be it I would hope they would come around eventually.

As for Andrea and the gun, even if in this one instance she did not cause the rest of the group to die (and her shot could have caused the herd to linger, to get worked into a frenzy and hang around longer, the longer they stayed around the greater the chance the survivors would be discovered, one drops some entrails and bends down to get it... he sees someone and takes a bite out of them. The next thing you know it is game over. That said it is a larger concern for the group in all situations, until people are comfortable, and calm, and collected and can be trusted with firearms they shouldn't have them. Hell any jumpy person in the woods popping off rounds at shadows or rustling branches could kill you... forget the walkers. Look at Carl... accidents happen.

The opening with Rick and the Walkie, well it is a monologue, he is explaining and bringing people up to speed. Setting the table, and reminding people of things. There is a way to do this, and the show writers chose this. Was it awesome? Nah it was lacking but whatever I am not going to pick at it too much, the show was a great one.

[Legion2213]

I really enjoyed this episode...the herd scene was gob smackingly awesome.

And Daryl has proved once again that he among the most capable individuals in the group with his actions in this episode (I got a real laugh out of his "SS" chopper as well).

-- -------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 PM ----------


I loved the premier, a couple of things that bothered me some of which have been discussed here and on the talking Dead. The seeming lack of fear of fluids after taking so many precautions to avoid them prior or at least stating "don't get it in your eyes" and wearing a face mask to prevent just that from happening in season 1.

Andrea had splatter all over her face and near her mouth. I would have freaked out immediately and gone into "clean it mode", T-Dog had an open wound on his arm and he was covered with a corpse? Normal infections aside that is a huge risk.

They seemed to spend the entire show covered in the stuff...I cringe every time Daryl slots a walker and casually retrieves his gore splattered bolt and just wipes it on his leg, I've decided to just assume that they either have super awesome imune systems or that "walkeritus" dies immediately on contact with fresh air or something. :D

[kidgloves]

Ricks not having a good time so far this season is he?
Losses a little girl, gets blamed for it. Then his son gets shot the 1st time he's allowed away from his mother. Lori's probably going to hate him for that.

[bassman]

Watching the episode again, got a few things to point out. Long post ahead...

As I mentioned earlier, Rick actually does looks directly into the camera during the opening scene. How could this slip by? If it was for some weird damn reason intentional, it's one of the worst mistakes the show has made. Very distracting and took me right out of the attempted dramatic monologue. It also appears that the entire scene is CGI. Last minute addition maybe?

When they leave the city....it's the exact same highway rick rides in on in episode 1! I can understand them trying to cut corners, but hardcore fans probably noticed this immediately. What's even worse is if you're an Atlanta resident or have a knowledge of the city, it's basically the exact opposite way you want to go to head South to Fort Benning. As many small things as they altered in the first season, they could've at least changed the skyline and surrounding cars to make it appear as a different highway.

Maybe I should've already picked up on this, but i'm detecting a pattern for episodes where a major character gets seriously wounded. Much like Amy's fish story in episode 4, Carl gets his Grand Canyon backstory here.

What really happens with T-Dog's severe wound? We see Daryl save him from the walkers then there's never any real mention of how bad it was. He looks like he's about to die/pass out from the loss of blood, then we just see him talking to Dale with a bandage? Judging from the wound and his entire body being covered in blood, I thought it was fatal wound...

The walker in the woods swallowed a whole woodchuck skull? That raises questions by itself, but what if they didn't find any bones? Were they expecting a piece of flesh with a "Sophia" tag on it? It would just be flesh and blood....no way of knowing. Imo, this scene was only put in as a way to one-up the gore scenes from previous episodes.

I love that Dale faked the radiator hose being broken just because he knew Rick would want to move on if it were ready. On the flipside of that same coin, would he? In the same scene with Carl's Grand Canyon story Rick tell's Sophia that he would never go anywhere without Sophia and Carol...

Lori has a problem searching through the traffic jam "graveyard", but then has absolutely no problem running across an actual cemetary? Maybe it's a southern thing, but I was always raised to believe that it's absolutely wrong to step on a person's burial ground. Small nitpick there, I admit.

I've got no problem with the walkers sitting in the church. Even if it hasn't been established that they have memory in this series, we've seen them doing this before in earlier episodes. With no food around and no "herd" to walk with, they sit by and wait is the way I see it.

Lori laid the shit down on Carol and rest of the group. I really like that. Basically saying if you don't like Rick's decisions - the door is that way. Nice to see her really stand up for him.

And finally the "deer" thing. Anyone with a knowledge of the books could see this coming from miles away. It kind of makes me wish I hadn't known, really...


End long list of second and more thorough viewing opinions....

[Vulture Lives]

I've got no problem with the walkers sitting in the church. Even if it hasn't been established that they have memory in this series, we've seen them doing this before in earlier episodes. With no food around and no "herd" to walk with, they sit by and wait is the way I see it.

I have no problem with the zombies just sitting there. Maybe I need to watch the episode again, but my problem was with their body posture as they sat there. It just seemed off. They were too upright, too normal. The show was trying to trick you into thinking that the zombies were living people at first. I thought it was a cheap gag, because it wasn't true to zombie behavior. Zombies would be more slumped over and listless (I realize that only the biggest of zombie nerds would nitpick such a thing).

[AcesandEights]

Cheap gag? Well don't turn on AMC right now, they're showing Survival of the Dead...your head'll spin, brotha :)

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I still don't buy the whole "what Andrea might have done in the RV bathroom had she a working gun at the time" rationale being justification for stealing (let's call the taking of her gun what it is) her gun. By that logic, Rick shouldn't have a gun because he ACTUALLY placed a half dozen people in mortal danger with his shooting, and Shane shouldn't have a gun, because he almost shot Rick in the back with a shotgun while they were patrolling and Dale saw this.

Just seems a very arbitrary "boys club" sort of thing. Dale doesn't want her to have it. Rick and Shane consider Dale an important member of the group for his skills, and Andrea less so. So they don't even give the situation a fair review and just knee-jerk side with Dale, while Shane feeds Andrea what has to be the lamest excuse ever about weapons in the group. Besides, it's idiotic for them to be handing out short-reach melee weapons and insisting they be used as primary weapons should the need for someone to eliminate a Walker arise. They should be conditioning the members of their group to keep their distance from Walkers at (almost) all costs, rather then encouraging them to enter the unpredictable-speed "lunge zone" of the Walkers.

I also agree with whoever pointed out Dale's hypocrisy-laden reasoning for lying about the RV not being repaired. Ditto for the reasoning about the outbreak bringing out the best in Daryl and the absolute worst in Dale. I've had time to really think it over, and I still believe I would've responded with violence in Andrea's place being denied her own weapon. Maybe not with Shane right there to back Dale up, but the moment I could slip up behind him or beside him while no one was very close by I would put that hunting knife to this throat and demand he give me my damned gun back or I'm going to give him a Cuban Neck-Tie. Such an action would have two good results. a) I'd get my piece back, and b) I'm sure being threatened with violent immediate death would break Dale's sappy paternalistic view of Andrea, thus getting him off her back.

Maybe that sounds a bit Khardis-esque, but I REALLY don't take well to people attempting to control me.

[shootemindehead]

Watching the episode again, got a few things to point out. Long post ahead...

As I mentioned earlier, Rick actually does looks directly into the camera during the opening scene. How could this slip by? If it was for some weird damn reason intentional, it's one of the worst mistakes the show has made. Very distracting and took me right out of the attempted dramatic monologue. It also appears that the entire scene is CGI. Last minute addition maybe?

I noticed this too, but I don't have a problem with it. Reminds me of Dreyfuss looking at the camera in 'Jaws'. What's the issue you have with this Bassy? 4th wall stuff?


When they leave the city....it's the exact same highway rick rides in on in episode 1! I can understand them trying to cut corners, but hardcore fans probably noticed this immediately. What's even worse is if you're an Atlanta resident or have a knowledge of the city, it's basically the exact opposite way you want to go to head South to Fort Benning. As many small things as they altered in the first season, they could've at least changed the skyline and surrounding cars to make it appear as a different highway.

Not knowing anything about Atlanta (or Georgia), except that it's "in the South" and was burned down in 'Gone with the Wind', I have to say i wouldn't have noticed this at all. It certainly wouldn't have impacted on my enjoyment of the episode.


Maybe I should've already picked up on this, but i'm detecting a pattern for episodes where a major character gets seriously wounded. Much like Amy's fish story in episode 4, Carl gets his Grand Canyon backstory here.

I think this is quite a common trait in drama. It's like the soldier who pines for his girl back home, you know he's going to get it in the next reel. The "remember when..." blah blah sets the character up as a real person and then whammo. It's a manipulation of audience feeling, so the impact of the tragedy on the character seems worse.


What really happens with T-Dog's severe wound? We see Daryl save him from the walkers then there's never any real mention of how bad it was. He looks like he's about to die/pass out from the loss of blood, then we just see him talking to Dale with a bandage? Judging from the wound and his entire body being covered in blood, I thought it was fatal wound...

That kind of annoyed me too and I was hoping it was the end for him. He's totally a 5th wheel character and his stupid name infuriates me. I think it might be a case of effect being too severe. It looked much worse than the intended outcome. Mad me wince, I have to say. Found it more disturbing than when they cut the corpse open TBH.


The walker in the woods swallowed a whole woodchuck skull? That raises questions by itself, but what if they didn't find any bones? Were they expecting a piece of flesh with a "Sophia" tag on it? It would just be flesh and blood....no way of knowing. Imo, this scene was only put in as a way to one-up the gore scenes from previous episodes.

I think that scene is there for a couple of reasons. It illustrates their growing desparation and the fear that everyone is feeling for the little kid and it allows us to indulge in some much needed gore. I had no problem at all with the scene and correct me if I'm wrong, but human flesh would be noticable depending on which part it is. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the whole zombies eating animals thing though. It would generally require a swiftness they wouldn't possess.


Lori has a problem searching through the traffic jam "graveyard", but then has absolutely no problem running across an actual cemetary? Maybe it's a southern thing, but I was always raised to believe that it's absolutely wrong to step on a person's burial ground. Small nitpick there, I admit.

I found her line there kind of stupid and out of place. I think the vast majority of people would have told her to STFU. For god's they've been riding around in dead peoples vehicles etc since the last series.


I've got no problem with the walkers sitting in the church. Even if it hasn't been established that they have memory in this series, we've seen them doing this before in earlier episodes. With no food around and no "herd" to walk with, they sit by and wait is the way I see it.

Me neither and I think that Romero's cannon is the template for Kirkman's zombies anyway. Either way, they were sitting around on busses in the first series and Morgan's dead Mrs knew the way to her front door, so it's not beyond the show to have them sit in a church.


And finally the "deer" thing. Anyone with a knowledge of the books could see this coming from miles away. It kind of makes me wish I hadn't known, really...

I have all of the books and I don't remember Karl getting shot. Hmmmm...

[kidgloves]

Lincoln looks right into the camera in the pilot as well when Rick and Shane are sitting in the cop car having their conversation about women

[bassman]

I noticed this too, but I don't have a problem with it. Reminds me of Dreyfuss looking at the camera in 'Jaws'. What's the issue you have with this Bassy? 4th wall stuff?

Yeah, 4th wall. I see that kid says Lincoln's done this before, but I don't remember it. If he did, it must not have been as obvious. In the new premiere he stares for a good five seconds. Just rubbed me the wrong way...



I have all of the books and I don't remember Karl getting shot. Hmmmm...

Yeah....shot by Otis and then taken to Hershel's farm. The tv series is keeping it pretty much the same except for I believe in the comic series Otis thought he was a zombie rather than hitting him while shooting the deer.

http://www.yellmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-walking-dead-2.jpg

[AcesandEights]

Lincoln looks right into the camera in the pilot as well when Rick and Shane are sitting in the cop car having their conversation about women

Isn't that a character PoV shot, though? From Shane's point of view?

[shootemindehead]

Yeah....shot by Otis and then taken to Hershel's farm. The tv series is keeping it pretty much the same except for I believe in the comic series Otis thought he was a zombie rather than hitting him while shooting the deer.

http://www.yellmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/the-walking-dead-2.jpg



Wow, I don't recall that at all!

[AcesandEights]

Wow, I don't recall that at all!

I completely forgot about it myself, but that did happen quite some time ago in the books and it's been a few years since I read it.

Also, thank you for spoiler tagging it, Bass. :)

Spoilers about the episode in this thread are cool, of course, spoilers about future issues of the comic book that may impact future episodes I would still hope people would tag. And, yes, people have been generally cool about that, especially considering how tempting it is at times during conversations about the 'rules' concerning the zombies.

[Vulture Lives]

Me neither and I think that Romero's cannon is the template for Kirkman's zombies anyway. Either way, they were sitting around on busses in the first series and Morgan's dead Mrs knew the way to her front door, so it's not beyond the show to have them sit in a church.

Gah! My problem wasn't with the fact that the zombies were sitting in church. I imagine that if zombies were locked in a room with no food source to pursue, they would eventually give up and slump down in a corner somewhere. The zombies on the busses did exactly that... they had no food source to pursue, so they just slumped down until stimulated by Rick's presence. The thing is, the zombies on the busses had body posture that was consistent with a zombie. The zombies in the church didn't. It's all in my previous posts.

And, no, Romero's canon isn't the template for Kirkman's zombies. Yes, Romero is obviously Kirkman's biggest inspiration, but there are differences. For example, Kirkman has gone on record and said that his zombies will never learn or become intelligent. If you want to talk about what's canon and what isn't, then refer to last year's season finale. Remember Jenner's research on his wife's brain? He specifically states that memories do not return, and the display of his wife's brain was rather convincing. That's canon at this point in time.

[DEAD BEAT]

Can't wait 4 more! ;)

[kidgloves]

Isn't that a character PoV shot, though? From Shane's point of view?

I don't think so. I'd have to check though. It stands out to me everytime

[shootemindehead]

Gah! My problem wasn't with the fact that the zombies were sitting in church. I imagine that if zombies were locked in a room with no food source to pursue, they would eventually give up and slump down in a corner somewhere. The zombies on the busses did exactly that... they had no food source to pursue, so they just slumped down until stimulated by Rick's presence. The thing is, the zombies on the busses had body posture that was consistent with a zombie. The zombies in the church didn't. It's all in my previous posts.

Yeh, we get it. Relax. Put it down to what you want, bad acting, cheap shot, whatever. The scene is still fine as far as I'm concerned and it's certainly not the worst thing about the show's zombies.


Remember Jenner's research on his wife's brain? He specifically states that memories do not return, and the display of his wife's brain was rather convincing. That's canon at this point in time.

All I recall is Janner saying that everything from the person we knew is gone. I don't recall him saying anything about memory.

Either way, Janner would hardly be an authority. He blew his wife away on the first move. Who knows what happens with the zombies after their synapses have been firing for a while. There have been no hard and fast rules laid down. Maybe the zeds were remembering to sit up straight in church. Maybe they'd only just got there, 5 minutes before Rick and the gang, called to the church by the bell.

[Wyldwraith]

So far as zombie intelligence, miscellaneous mental and physical abilities go in TWD,
I'm not so sure that there's really the same sort of defining line in TWD TV version as in the comics or Romero's Dead stuff. We've had zombies that go over a 9-10ft chain-link fence AS easily as Rick and Glenn in "Guts", while earlier in the very same episode we saw zombies doing a poor-to-fair job of negotiating the first ladder Rick and Glenn went up immediately after Rick meeting Glenn for the 1st time.

In other instances we've clearly seen it demonstrated at least 3-4 times that zombies clearly understand the concept of doors, despite doors being a non-transparent object that blocks any visual perception of their prey. Ie: Morgan's wife jiggling the door knob to the house Rick, Morgan and Duane were in. If Walkers have no memory, then they MUST be recognizing at the simplest that doors represent easier points of access to a structure. We see this again when the noise Andrea made in the RV betrayed her and that zombie didn't even pause before going STRAIGHT for the bathroom door, despite the fact that even to a person those sliding-closed or folding RV bathroom doors can be hard to recognize as anything but more paneling unless you look for the bathroom door...grip/handle. See what I mean?

It's gotta be the one or the other. Either residual memory or minimal reasoning skills without human memory. The absence of both would preclude the scene with Andrea and the zombie in the RV. Not at least without the zombie putting more time into ransacking the rest of the RV. They aren't bats or dolphins, and don't use echo-location or side-scan sonar after all. A noise of something falling somewhere behind the zombie (he was staggering back toward the RV's entrance/exit when Andrea dropped the gun parts and made that brief exclamation)...without any memory OR reasoning could only have resulted in the zombie turning around, going back the way he'd come, and feeling around. That, or stand stupidly in the middle of the RV waiting for more sensory stimulus. That isn't what happened though. That zombie made a beeline straight for the RV bathroom and started forcing his way in.

Just my .02...but there it is.

[blind2d]

I just watched it today, this morning, and yeah, y'all are making some good points. I think maybe it was commentary how there were so few zeds in the church, but maybe that's just my twisted mind. Anyhow, yeah, I thought the episode was great, and the woman with the disassembled gun was very not ninja, but good with a screwdriver. She annoys me a bit. Never did like blonds. Anyway, yeah, more on the way? Sounds good to me.

[rongravy]

It's gotta be the one or the other. Either residual memory or minimal reasoning skills without human memory. The absence of both would preclude the scene with Andrea and the zombie in the RV. Not at least without the zombie putting more time into ransacking the rest of the RV. They aren't bats or dolphins, and don't use echo-location or side-scan sonar after all. A noise of something falling somewhere behind the zombie (he was staggering back toward the RV's entrance/exit when Andrea dropped the gun parts and made that brief exclamation)...without any memory OR reasoning could only have resulted in the zombie turning around, going back the way he'd come, and feeling around. That, or stand stupidly in the middle of the RV waiting for more sensory stimulus. That isn't what happened though. That zombie made a beeline straight for the RV bathroom and started forcing his way in.

Maybe he could smell that load of timber she was dropping in the john.
I know... she wasn't even taking the Browns to the Superbowl. Maybe this was one of those times he could smell her, perhaps from being away from the outside highway stench. On a show with a few inconsistencies, who's going to notice?
Well, besides us.

[childofgilead]

After watching the premiere again by myself yesterday, I have to again agree that it was a strong start, at least thematically. I wasn't too crazy about the beginning narration either and it definitely smacked of cruddy green screen after thought fx.

Based on some of the stuff going on with the characters, I really hope they aren't setting up a Shane/Andrea romance subplot. I don't know if it's just me coming from the viewpoint of a fan of the comic or what, I just have a hard time dealing with Shane. I mean yeah, he held the group together and he's slowly growing on me for backing up Rick, but I still have to wonder if he's only doing it because he has ulterior motives.

He was definitely a little skeezy at the beginning of the first episode, just the look on his face, like he was interested in the status of Ricks' marriage for the wrong reasons. But after the flashback at the hospital in last years finale, I honestly liked the character alot more than I thought I would.

But clearly he's starting to have separation issues. Either he's really wanting to leave or he's doing it for attention. Either way, somethings gotta happen.

As for Andrea and her gun, as a reader of the comic, I wonder if this is just foreshadowing. I know that Dale is coming off as a bit of a prick, but this is all just characterization. If anything, I think that everyone is taking the end of the world almost a little TOO well. They're still being very civil with one another, considering everything else.

There's more, but I can't go into detail, since alot of it is spoileriffic and spoiler tags aren't wanting to work for me for some reason. :shifty:

edit: Maybe the walkers following them were from another roadblock or something, that they'd awoken from hibernation from driving through? Meh, probably not.

[Gemini]

Okay I'm back on the board now that season 2 is underway!

The premiere episode was awesome! I was hoping the series would go back to the quality of its pilot episode and I think they succeeded.

As I've stated before, season 1 took a steep dive after the initial episode for a variety of reasons. Those reasons were thoroughly corrected in this episode -

-the tension and feeling of serious dread is back
-the zombies are a much more believable menace, both in numbers (the awesome horde on the highway) and in behavior (becoming frenzied and semi-running when stimulated and in "attack mode")
-there were no obvious plot holes or implausibilities and it seemed they even made an effort to advance their zombie mythology and close some season 1 plot holes (explanation of the roaming "herd" of zombies at the campground for instance)
-the dialogue was strong, believable, and added depth to the characters

Also, season 1 was strong in this regard as well but the zombie makeup - WOW - seriously the best and most realistic looking zombies I've ever seen on screen.

So, hats off to the crew - let's keep the momentum going!

BTW I am still amazed at the extreme gore, and the high ratings. Good stuff.

One more thing, why the hell wouldn't Shane want to take the hot blonde with him when he leaves Dodge? He said he didn't want to have an extra ass to cover. Hmm I could think of other things her ass might be good for... particularly in an apocalypse!

[kidgloves]

Don't know if its been mentioned yet, but the rumours are the 2nd eason premiere is actually 2 episodes put together and it was these episodes that resulted in Darabont being pulled from the editing room. It would explain the 2 directorial credits as well.

[Trin]

I enjoyed the Season 2 first episode.

Although I have many many opinions about everything that has been discussed, I'm not going to get into nit-picking or deep analysis now. I just want to make one point.

I loved the scene between Andrea and Dale. Last season we all applaud Dale for saving her. This season we start off with a bang as she lashes out because she didn't *want* to be saved, and in fact it was SHE who saved HIM, and against her will. Whether you agree or disagree, it's brilliantly played.

But my point is... we love to talk about GAR and social commentary. Let's give a round of applause to TWD for confronting the topic of "right to choose" and doing it so well that we hardly even knew it was there! It wasn't shoe-horned in. It fit perfectly into the plot and character development. And just look at the discussion it's generated!

[childofgilead]

Don't know if its been mentioned yet, but the rumours are the 2nd eason premiere is actually 2 episodes put together and it was these episodes that resulted in Darabont being pulled from the editing room. It would explain the 2 directorial credits as well.

I don't know what episode you watched, but mine was only an hour and a half long because of all the commercials after the first half hour.

[kidgloves]

I don't know what episode you watched, but mine was only an hour and a half long because of all the commercials after the first half hour.

Huh. I think youve misunderstoodwhat im saying. Im not suggesting they tacked one episode onto another. More like they edited 2 episodes together. We know they filmed scenes at the Vatos hideout but they've left Atlanta now and i cant see them going back now the story has progressed to Carls shooting.

[krisvds]

Enjoyed the first half of the episode, but things really went downhill after that for me.
The tacky love triangle thing is getting old fast? Standard soap fare.
The talking to JC in the church felt awkward. Bad, bad writing. Same with the opening monologue. And the 'Shane teaming up with Andrea' subplot .... Pffff.

[AcesandEights]

The talking to JC in the church felt awkward. Bad, bad writing.

I thought that part was a bit funny and definitely forced...it's a somewhat realistic reaction and thought process for a character to exhibit, but it was a bit overwritten.

I liked that Rick was asking for signs as to God's intentions...you know...aside from the dead rising from the grave and destroying humanity. It just struck me funny for some reason.

[bassman]

While the praying in church was a bit awkward, it still doesn't beat the awful writing of "The doctor told me....he told me....it doesn't matter". :lol:

I realize they were reminding the audience of the season finale, but couldn't they have just cut that scene into the 'last time on TWD' that shows before every episode? That opening just wreaks of after-the-fact fixes. Poor CGI, poor writing, poor acting. If the premiere was in fact two episodes cut into one(good theory btw Kid), I think that opening was definitely a last minute addition.

Back to the church praying, I felt Carol's prayers were pretty good. The reveal of Ed having molested Sophia was a nice touch. No pun intended. Rick's prayers had some issues, however.

[JDFP]

Back to the church praying, I felt Carol's prayers were pretty good. The reveal of Ed having molested Sophia was a nice touch. No pun intended. Rick's prayers had some issues, however.

Wait, what? I completely missed that. Doesn't surprise me though as his character was basically scum. I still have issues with the fact that the cross had Jesus still on it and it said it was a "Southern Baptist" church. They should have just called it " 'X' Church" instead without throwing a denomination on there - again, just not my experience that Southern Baptist churches still have Jesus on the cross still (though they clearly did it for effect of looking up to the crucified Christ).

j.p.

[bassman]

Wait, what? I completely missed that.

....did I imagine that? :lol: I'm not kidding, I may have. It's happened before. I seem to remember her saying something about it. When she was saying she shouldn't have prayed for his death after he hit her and all that. Ill have to go back and check...

[AcesandEights]

I actually didn't like that part, as it seemed like tacked-on mustache twirling, to me. Something to make the audience say..."Oh, well, then he was really bad, I guess...I'll forge a deeper, more sympathetic emotional connection to that little girl now as a viewer."

I don't need just black & white character types.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, I though that was crap too.

His character was already cliched enough as it was.

"Well, this new character...he's...wait for it...from the South and he, get this...he beats his wife, who's angelic and loves her daughter lots...."

"Hmmm...he doesn't sound that fleshed out to me...what else does he do?"

"Emmmmmmmm...touches his kid?"

"Brilliant! I love it!"

[kidgloves]

While the praying in church was a bit awkward, it still doesn't beat the awful writing of "The doctor told me....he told me....it doesn't matter". :lol:

I realize they were reminding the audience of the season finale, but couldn't they have just cut that scene into the 'last time on TWD' that shows before every episode? That opening just wreaks of after-the-fact fixes. Poor CGI, poor writing, poor acting. If the premiere was in fact two episodes cut into one(good theory btw Kid), I think that opening was definitely a last minute addition.

Back to the church praying, I felt Carol's prayers were pretty good. The reveal of Ed having molested Sophia was a nice touch. No pun intended. Rick's prayers had some issues, however.

Also, Frank said the 1st episode picks up 5 seconds after the CDC explosion so i was under the impression you would see the RV pulling away from the CDC and we would be on our way with the story. We didn't get that did we? I remember them stocking up the RV in the opening montage but thats it. Maybe i missed something. I'll have to watch it again :D

Is it Sunday yet? :shifty:

[Andy]

Really really enjoyed most of the episode, kind of lost interest for a few minutes at parts but god damn did it get my interest back quickly at the end! i sat in front of my TV with cold beers in my x rocker chair with the sound right up, when:

carl was shot, i literally jumped up and screamed! Then Hershel!! :hyper:

Also, i thought Darryl was such a better character, in the first series he just seemed like a redneck douche but in the first episode of the second series, i was really wondering what the group would have done without him at times? T-Dog owes him his life and he was really genuinely being a team player when searching for Sofia. i see him becoming a vital character.

The church scenes where very awkward to me, the revelations about ed seemed unnecessary and quite tasteless i think, the opening was really annoying to, again i shouted at my TV when rick said 'Nevermind.."


Some small gripes but overall a great episode! i loved it and cant wait for more.

[rongravy]

"Well, this new character...he's...wait for it...from the South and he, get this...he beats his wife, who's angelic and loves her daughter lots...."

Heckfire, I'd beat her too just fer cuttin' her hair that danged short.
:elol:
I didn't remember the kid being molested part either, but I got superbaked to watch it. I guess I should check when the repeat is on so I can reload the data back in there, fill in the pieces I might've missed stuffing my face.

[Wyldwraith]

Been watching Ep. 1 of Season Two again,
It really caught me by surprise, that the same things that drove me up a wall on my first viewing drove me up that wall EVEN MORE on my second. If I got anything more out of it, it was that the 1st time around I didn't get just how much Shane really was running with Dale's initiative of "No guns for anyone but me and Rick and Dale, despite the fact that we're the ones that make ALL the mistakes and/or morally deficient decisions with said guns." Listening to Andrea tell Dale off again still elicited emotion, but I saw something else right at the end that in retrospect didn't strike me the first time. At the end of Dale and Andrea's confrontation, when a poleaxed Dale just sorta dribbles out a "I....don't know what to say" to Andrea, there was a PERFECT conversational opening for Andrea to say "Say you were WRONG, and give me back my damned GUN!" ...but instead she just walks away without another word. Since the entire confrontation was about Dale's interference in her right to make her own decisions, and was sparked by his maliciously egotistical, paternalistically condescending theft of her firearm, I don't understand why Andrea let it go when she had Dale "on the ropes" with the Greater Moral Reality of the situation.

In other respects, I find that with a 2nd viewing the whole "Sophia's missing and we gotta look for her" subplot drags even MORE than it did the 1st time. It SHOULD have been written that one of them found her seconds before Rick's, Shane's and Carl's encounter with the buck and Carl's subsequent shooting. Would've closed up that poorly-immersive subplot and opened up the next. That of them encountering other people. To keep both Sophia missing, Carl's life being in danger, and the punch of them encountering new and unfamiliar people going SIMULTANEOUSLY reduces the impact of all three scenarios in the same basic way that cutting a pie into three pieces instead of two means each pie-wedge is significantly smaller.

I don't see the problem with gutting the zombie to be sure it hadn't eaten Sophia. And yes, I DO believe they would have been able to identify minutes old human flesh in the ghoul's gut from that of rodents or other animal life. If for no other reason than how the zombies tear away the maximum mouth-sized bite from an extremity held out in front of the victim to try and shield themselves from said zombie. The speed at which the zombies go in for more bites means they damned sure arent CHEWING what they tear off...so grisly as it may be, a necropsy of the Walker's stomach contents would have revealed a chunk of black-smeared hairless skin in a half-circle chunk on one side and ragged muscle and subcutaneous fat on the other side.

Put it this way: If *I* had been either Rick or Daryl, and come across that Walker while searching for a lost little girl I last saw in an area being frequented by Walkers, *I* damned sure would've cut the damned thing open and checked. Not checking means living with the possibility that you've missed a potential opportunity to find out if the little girl you're looking for is already beyond help. That would be immoral and critically unfair to the other members of the group, to be exposing them to being surprised by a Walker or multiple Walkers during a fruitless search of the woods.

Answer me this: What if they had found a SINGLE half-circle chunk of smooth tender pale skin on one side, and slender muscle fiber and a lot of subcutaneous fat (a chunk out of Sophia's arm I mean, and identifiably so)? Could ANY member of that group rationally consider it worth the dire risk (those bells could've summoned that Walker herd as easily as gunshots) if Daryle and Rick reported finding concrete 100% positive evidence that Sophia had been bitten at least once, and was probably (wherever she is) already very near death from exsanguination and shock...or worse (for her mother and Rick's sanity/emotional stability) finding Sophia had already become a Walker?

Even worse, what would the consequences be if Rick and Daryl HAD found such evidence and concealed it to keep the search going, and someone else on day 2 or day 3 of the search (after first returning to the vehicles to rest and regroup) was bitten if T-Dog then revealed that Dale had been lying about the RV being out-of-commission? Rick or Laurie would put a bullet in Dale's brain outright if Carl got bitten under such circumstances.

See what I mean? Consequences-wise, they HAD to rule out that Walker as the cause of Sophia's infection and/or death. The fallout due to potential casualties for passing up the opportunity to be sure the Walker DIDNT do it or of concealing the fact that it DID do it (after the two of them discovering that fact) would have torn the group irreparably apart.

[MinionZombie]

Watched it last night on FXUK and...

http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/user/8/87490-194718-RandyMarshJizzjpg-620x.jpg

'Nuff said...

...

Oh go on then, I'll talk about it more...

I think it was wise not to give away what Jenner said to Lori, because that would just blow the wad on that too soon. You've only got so much screen time and you've got other matters to deal with ... perhaps it'll come out when they're all at Herschel's farm and they've got time to stop and get into other things without having to watch their guard all the time.

With Darabont saying it picked up straight after episode 1x06, I was expecting it to do just that, but obviously it didn't - perhaps they couldn't afford the screentime, or maybe he was playing with us ... regardless, I got back into the flow of things quite quickly - I mean come on, it's new TWD, what's not to like about that?

I think the big sequence in this episode was the "herd" moving through the traffic jam, and although I already saw it in isolation online t'other day (where I found it to be nicely tense), I still found it to be a tense sequence in the context of the whole episode. Speaking of which - some nice moments of zombie grue - be it Andrea kicking zombie ass with a screwdriver (a nice little wink there, perhaps? :)), or Daryl and Rick hacking open a walker to see if it had eaten Sophia or not - there were some excellent zombie moments. Indeed, the award for best zombie of the episode would have to go to the one that shambles into the RV - the make-up was amazing and I continue to love how they stay true to the 'stretched lips' look with all the manky teeth on show.

I liked the thing about "keep the sun on your left shoulder" - I've never heard that as a tip before for knowing which way you came and which way you have to head back - it's quite simple, but I'd never heard it before, so I thought that was nifty in itself ... and I can see we're going to have Rick go through more of these impossible decisions. He had to pull them away from Sophia, but then again she is also a child and evidently she got lost in the woods ... I thought Melissa McBride did a wonderful job too. It didn't feel overplayed, nor underplayed - it felt real ... and good on Lori for sacking up to Andrea and Carol at that one point to establish some harsh, practical fact into the situation at that time in order to keep things moving along.

Even though I knew that Carl was going to get shot at some point, I was still surprised when it actually happened - I was kind of wrapped up in the moment. I don't think you could have had Sophia pop up suddenly and just be like "hello, I'm fine" and then have that moment. You need a lingering loose end to go along with the big cliff hanger - that being Carl's shot and bleeding on the ground - but I kind of wonder if Sophia's going to be discovered at Herschel's farm safe and sound.

The little cough-and-you'll-not-hear-it revelation that Ed was perhaps edging towards kiddy fiddler territory with Sophia was a bit of a shock. It's a horrible thing that nobody wants to think about, naturally, but I don't think it ruined anything. The guy was a disgusting pig and I think it heightens Carol's sense of victimisation - trapped in an awful relationship, but she can't break free, and now she's blaming herself for losing Sophia because she wanted Ed dead - and the juxtaposition of 'can there be faith in a world like this?'

So, clearly, I really enjoyed the episode - we're back, baby! :D

[Wyldwraith]

I wasn't suggesting that Rick, Shane and Carl should have found Sophia,
I meant that one of the other small groups should have found her while headed back towards the vehicles. After all, Sophia had good advice about how to find her way back to the highway, even if she came out a bit north or south of where the vehicles were parked. Surely she wouldn't have left the treeline without being sure she wasn't within the line-of-sight of the Walker herd after having been burnt once for leaving cover too soon? That being the case, if logic and not perceived dramatic need script-wise was the determining factor in Sophia's location, she would (logically, that is) be within the band of woods between the highway and the creek bank where Rick had her hide. Why? Well, after leaving the tangle of roots she hid under, Sophia's VERY FIRST DECISION would have been which direction to begin to move in after she'd crawled out from under the root-tangle.

Sophia knew that she (and Rick) had come down the bank of the creek while being pursued by the Walkers. The OTHER bank of the creek was flat ground as far as what was shown of it went, so it would've been utterly impossible for her to confuse WHICH bank of the creek they'd come down, and WHICH bank of said creek she needed to crawl back up to begin making her way back to the highway. So, why is it certain she would have gone that way? Easy, she was frightened. Sophia saw the Walkers pursue Rick across the bank of the creek opposite where she was hiding and out of her sight. A frightened little girl, alone, would NOT go in the direction the zombies went. Right? That being the case, the leaves the direction she came from, where Sophia knows the bulk of the group is with guns, other weapons and vehicles to escape in if necessary. Most important from her perspective, that's the direction leading to not being alone and in terrible danger because she's alone and helpless before any Walker that might find her. Her Mommy is in that direction.

All of these are IMO extremely solid reasons for Sophia to go up that bank and take Rick's advice. It was incredibly simple advice, AND the LAST THING an adult who was being incredibly serious said to her before she was left alone. Why wouldn't she follow Rick's advice about how to find her way back to the others? See what I mean? There are only 3 reasonable reasons why Sophia wouldn't have followed Rick's advice and headed back towards the group. 1) She's dead/injured/a Walker. 2) Other humans found her before she could make her way back to the group and took her with them wherever they went (though that reason has this hole in it: Why wouldn't such people want to find Sophia's group of armed adults themselves?) 3) She began making her way back toward the group as Rick had instructed, but encountered 1 or more Walkers en route and ran blindly away from said Walker(s).

What do the rest of you think?

[Andy]

The little cough-and-you'll-not-hear-it revelation that Ed was perhaps edging towards kiddy fiddler territory with Sophia was a bit of a shock. It's a horrible thing that nobody wants to think about, naturally, but I don't think it ruined anything. The guy was a disgusting pig and I think it heightens Carol's sense of victimisation - trapped in an awful relationship, but she can't break free, and now she's blaming herself for losing Sophia because she wanted Ed dead - and the juxtaposition of 'can there be faith in a world like this?'

Watching season 1 again this morning and the bit after shane beats the shit out of ed and hes in his tent sulking, and he grabs sofia and wants her to stay with him but carol stops him and says she wants to join in with everyone else...

Suddenly alot more sinister than i remember it.

[MinionZombie]

Wyld - yeah, I'd plump for she either got lost (she was terrified, so she could have easily not heard Rick's instructions properly perhaps - indeed they did address that concern in the show itself) or someone found her. Now, I wonder if Herschel's lot found her ... or maybe some other people found her ... or maybe she's still lost in the woods, it's not impossible.

On a different note, it seems that in episode 2 Shane (and another) have to go to Atlanta to get medical supplies, so I wonder if that's how the return to the Vatos lot works in?


Watching season 1 again this morning and the bit after shane beats the shit out of ed and hes in his tent sulking, and he grabs sofia and wants her to stay with him but carol stops him and says she wants to join in with everyone else...

Suddenly alot more sinister than i remember it.

Indeed. It re-paints that scene, but in a way that still makes complete sense ... if anything it makes it make more sense ... and makes it really goddamned creepy. Poor Sophia.

I should re-watch the bit where Carol is praying at the church, because the way I heard it made it seem to me that Ed was heading in the direction of kiddy fiddling, but hadn't crossed that line entirely ... or maybe they were just being subtle with the language. It's a show filled with tough situations already, so when you throw in incestual child abuse you've got to handle it subtly - not toss it in like a grenade.

Re-watching that bit again, her exact words are "looking at his own daughter, whatever his sickness was growing in his soul" ... so I'd read that as Ed, as I've said above, hadn't yet crossed the line fully - but was without a doubt heading there soon. Perhaps he saw this fucked up world as his 'chance' or 'excuse'. *shudders*

Furthermore, in that moment after she says that line, there's a nice little reaction from Lori in the background - so clearly she didn't know either. It's a revelation to the group (or some of the group anyway) as well as we the viewers.

...

I see there's been a lot of talk about the Andrea/Dale situation - I think this is going to be a good source of character drama. Andrea had decided she was going to commit suicide - and yet here she finds herself still within this hellish world, so she'll clearly be in a very messed up headspace. Now, Dale's only reason for living - after the death of his wife - were/is Andrea and Amy (as he said in that bloody excellent moment in TS-19 - kudos to Jeffrey DeMunn for that bit, by the way, I saw it last night before 2x01 and it made me well up ... and I've seen that bit like 6 times now) ... anyway, Dale's reasons were in one-part selfish, but in another I'm sure he thought that Andrea was in a crazy headspace where perhaps she wasn't being (to him at least) rational.

Andrea on the other hand might feel duped by Dale, that he played a dirty trick on her to get her to leave with him - but I genuinely think that Dale was, or at least in-part, actually not wanting to go on if Andrea wasn't by his side. There's lots of possibilities in there, and I think this could prove quite a fruitful character conflict.

In terms of Andrea being a possible love interest for Shane - I don't think so - she sees him as an opportunity to leave the group. In a way Andrea thinks she's dead already, or perhaps being in the group reminds her constantly of Amy, or furthermore she's acting out of anger and frustration due to Dale's actions. I think that Andrea and Dale are both right in their actions, but for different reasons, and I think that's what makes it so interesting between them.

Also - I dug that Dale had already fixed the hose but lied about it to keep 'the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few' conversations from starting. Dale is one of my favourite characters in the comics, and DeMunn has just made me love the character all-the-more - he's a gentleman, but he's also very aware of the people around him; he thinks into the future like a chess player in order to take the best course of action for the good of everyone. Dale's a man of experience who has lived longer than any of the others, so he'll know a thing or two that the other's won't yet, and again I think that's key to the overall group dynamic.

Finally, indeed, Daryl is kicking all kinds of arse at the moment - I agree, he's becoming an integral member of the group now. I look forward to seeing the development of his character, with this motivation of the group becoming his family, and that he feels a part of a group for once in his life. His ties with Merle are severing and his ties with the group are pulling tighter - no doubt there will come a time when this newfound-and-developing loyalty is tested when Merle comes back at some point - but yeah, Daryl has really become an excellent character and I think Norman Reedus is doing a fantastic job in proving the worth of his character from initial, stereotypical perceptions, to that young sibling who has perhaps never really been needed or wanted by a group/family and now sees this as an opportunity to become his own man.

As far as the motorbike, and the SS symbol, I'd assume that the bike belongs to Merle - the elder brother who is clearly racist, whereas Daryl strikes me as someone who's only a little racist/politically incorrect simply to fit in with Merle and the rest of his family - e.g. calling Glenn "Short Round". I think him saving T-Dog is a clear indication of what is truly in Daryl's heart ... he's been socialised into racist remarks simply to fit in, but I think he's never truly been racist ... I think the pack mentality and loyalty to the group are far more in his heart and mind.

Merle, on the other hand, in his biker's leather jacket, is flat-out racist - so I'd wager the bike is his. Interestingly though, it was only the mention of the SS symbol in this thread that drew me to it - I never actually noticed it myself when watching the show last night.

[Wyldwraith]

In retort concerning the Andrea/Dale conflict:
If Dale honestly didn't want to live if Andrea didn't, fine. Step outside the room and stick his rifle under his chin and pull the trigger. Just as painless as being thermobaric-bombed, and it wouldn't have been on Andrea's conscience because HE made the decision to end his life himself. Why didn't he? Because Dale didn't want to die, he just wanted to FORCE ANDREA TO LIVE. NOTHING he's done in relation to her makes sense to me. Pulling what he did in the CDC control room destroyed his relationship with Andrea, plain and simple. He compounds destroying that relationship via blackmailing her emotionally by betraying her via theft of her last security blanket, the gun her father gave her. In my mind, that pushed (or should've realistically pushed) Andrea's feelings for Dale from simple indifferent contempt to an active hatred for not only making her live a life she didn't want, but forcing her to life that unwanted life in a way he's "comfortable with" by, wait for it, turning STILL MORE MEMBERS of the group against Andrea.

Is anything I just said untrue? How do ANY of Dale's actions increase Andrea's desire to live? Answer: They don't. All he's done is make Andrea want away from the people who have so betrayed her she can't stand the sight of them and is enthusiastically making plans to take a life-path that she HAS to KNOW dramatically increases her odds of being eaten alive!

Way to go Dale. You say you won't live without Andrea, but hypocritically deny HER that right when Andrea says she doesn't want to live without Amy. My God, with the way the man behaves I wouldn't be surprised to learn his WIFE swallowed the nearest bottle of pills to escape his control-freakdom.

I cannot articulate any stronger my conviction that Dale's actions were and remain 100% about what Dale wants and what Dale needs. There's simply no explanation for the inconsistencies if you begin from an assumption he's doing the things he's done to convince Andrea she wants to live. Not only has he failed 100% to convince her of this, but now in addition to the problems Andrea had in the wake of Amy's death we can add complete alienation from the group.

Just my .02, your mileage may of course vary

[ProfessorChaos]

^

dude, if you're unfamiliar with the comics (can't recall), and if they stick to the storyline concerning this whole andrea/dale thing, you're gonna be shitting bricks and screaming bloody murder before too long....i'm calling it right now.

[Wyldwraith]

Oh I don't doubt it,
Part of the problem is that my morality can only be described as abnormal. Some things that others consider optional (such as honesty and being loyal to those you care for) I consider absolutely mandatory. Other things, like retaliation for *serious* wrongs done to me or mine, are limited solely by the deterrence inherent in the legal consequences if I were to take it as far as my instincts dictated. So, while at times some of my perspectives may sound rather Khardis-ish, it's not that I don't have ethics....just that they're not....mainstream.

In an apocalyptic situation where society is history and civilization has utterly collapsed except for a few small and isolated pockets, personal responsibility and self-reliance are all you have. Common cause is wonderful, but unlike the movies 99.999% of people won't even hesitate a split-second to abandon you to your death if trying to come to your aid would place THEIR life in jeopardy. Whatever others believe, *I* believe that.

Believing that, I'm always going to perceive anything that diminishes one's capacity for self-reliance to be unacceptable, and if forced upon you by another person to constitute an attack with malice aforethought. That's where I'm coming from, so maybe that explains my reasoning about all this to an extent.

Part of the fascination of Survival Horror for me is (like most everyone else, I imagine) putting myself in the place of the survivor-characters. When I apply my morality to those situations however, the conclusions I come to tend to be fairly absolutist, because surviving or not surviving is an absolute. As one who wrestles daily with horrible pain, I'm shaped to a greater or lesser extent by that absolutist mindset.

Edit/Note: As proof of what I say, I point to the Poll taken during Talking Dead. The Question Was: "How long would you search for someone else's lost child? a) 1 Day, b) 1 Week, c) As long as it takes, or d) Not at all. 99.2% of people chose D) Not at all. The remaining . something % was 1 Day. Sure, it's idle talk. But over 99% of poll respondents? Must be at least SOME truth to that response, don't you think?

[MinionZombie]

Speaking of Talking Dead, I watched a bit of it on YouTube. Except for Hardwick, a brief few simple questions posed to Kirkman, and a bit of behind the scenes stuff, as well as some teaser footage, I thought it was pretty poor - too much 'comedy' and silly answers or comments, rather than actual discussion (like we see here on HPOTD). I'd hope they fix that follow-up show quick.

[kidgloves]

Speaking of Talking Dead, I watched a bit of it on YouTube. Except for Hardwick, a brief few simple questions posed to Kirkman, and a bit of behind the scenes stuff, as well as some teaser footage, I thought it was pretty poor - too much 'comedy' and silly answers or comments, rather than actual discussion (like we see here on HPOTD). I'd hope they fix that follow-up show quick.

Yeah. Same here although they just seem to be trying to capitalise on the popularity of the excellent podcasts that support this show. I'll give AMC and Kirkman credit though. They always make production and cast members available for these podcasts and seem to understand the importance of the "nerd" culture that seems to be everywhere in podcast land.

If anyone wants to follow up on the show by listening to podcasts the best ones are

1) The Walking Dead Cast
2) The Talking Dead (sound familiar?)
3) Walking Dead TV podcast

and they are well worth your time.

[Mike70]

on the subject of morality, i'll say i have a very, very slippery sense of it. in a survival situation anything that serves your purpose and furthers your survival is good. anything that doesn't is bad. period.

this would include taking care (by shooting them in head while they slept or simply bashing out their brains) of anyone i felt would be a future danger to myself or the people that i'm with. that is why i find most movies and tv shows on this subject so utterly ridiculous and unbelievable. during films like these, the number of times i've said, "i'd kill that guy/woman next chance i got because he/she is going to be a problem down the road", is immense. but yet, time and again in movies/tv these obvious turds are allowed to continue until their completely forseeable acts of idiocy kill someone.

for instance: if it weren't for needing the ammo out of Andy's gun shop. that goofy broad who follows the dog over there would be on her fucking own. i'm not going after her and since you can't afford to lose anyone else in a stupid rescue attempt, hopefully no one else would either.

real life is a fuck of a lot different than the movies. movies and tv are tame, pale, vapid imitations of the true horror and terror the world can hold.

some might call it playing god but since i don't believe in gods/goddesses, ghosts, spirits or bugganes, i don't give a shit about such considerations. there is only self-interest or death in such situations.

in reality, i'd probably just find a small group of people i can deal with, hide ourselves away somewhere far off the beaten path and just stay out of the world as much as possible. since my survival plan includes using the ohio river to stay far away from centers of population, i think that is doable. southern ohio/northern ky are very sparsely populated. i don't play well with others and would have absolutely no interest in re-building civilization, building new societies, or any of that kind of bullshit where you have to compromise and repeatedly deal with other people's ideas on how things should be. not interested in that. not at all.

[bassman]

this would include taking care (by shooting them in head while they slept or simply bashing out their brains) of anyone i felt would be a future danger to myself or the people that i'm with. that is why i find most movies and tv shows on this subject so utterly ridiculous and unbelievable. during films like these, the number of times i've said, "i'd kill that guy/woman next chance i got because he/she is going to be a problem down the road", is immense. but yet, time and again in movies/tv these obvious turds are allowed to continue until their completely forseeable acts of idiocy kill someone.

While I agree with the thought of self and family preservation, you never really know about people. You could meet a perfectly normal person and they later turn out to be a hazard. At the same time, you could also meet a potential hazard that later turns out to be a valuable ally. Much like Daryl. Toward the beginning of the first season I thought he was no good for the group as a whole, but now he's proven himslef to be a huge help. He's now needed.

Humans are a weird bunch. You can't judge them by first appearances.

[kidgloves]

Edit/Note: As proof of what I say, I point to the Poll taken during Talking Dead. The Question Was: "How long would you search for someone else's lost child? a) 1 Day, b) 1 Week, c) As long as it takes, or d) Not at all. 99.2% of people chose D) Not at all. The remaining . something % was 1 Day. Sure, it's idle talk. But over 99% of poll respondents? Must be at least SOME truth to that response, don't you think?

That was meant to be a joke.

[Mike70]

Humans are a weird bunch. You can't judge them by first appearances.

please keep in mind that, unfortunately, i have what the psych folks call "anti-social personality disorder." that's why i have such a sparkling personality (which i do when i want to) and play so well with others. i'm not dangerous or violent nor am i ever likely to be. i completely lack things like empathy & compassion for other people and there are emotions that you take for granted that i cannot even experience and probably wouldn't recognize even if i did. i also cannot feel the reciprocation of emotion back from other people most of the time. that's the worst part of the entire thing.

now, i've shared way more than i intended (thanks klonopin)...

[JDFP]

This is going to be a lengthy post, but there's a lot of meat to what Wyld and a few others have said.

I. Dr. Jennar

Someone else mentioned that Dr. Jennar should have been knocked out and dragged out of the place if necessary. I agree and I applauded at the comment. Generally speaking, I'm extremely conservative on most issues (no surprise here to people who are familiar with me) and believe in individual rights (to an extent - being that those individual rights do not infringe on my being) as a paleoconservative. However, the situation the survivors find themselves in here is not a "general daily situation". Wyld, I have a tremendous amount of respect for you and usually agree with 90% of your thoughts, and even when I disagree you articulately and intelligently post your thoughts, so I hope you aren't taking any of my personal thoughts to a personal level, as that's certainly not intended. All in all, you're probably my most favorite poster around here and I respect you tremendously.

With that said, the overall survival of humanity in the face of extinction must rule out the individual rights of a single person. Sometimes individual liberties must be placed on hold for the overarching importance of a situation. I'm against the death penalty in the U.S. and generally speaking on a moral ground I'm also against it period. However, in some situations it may be necessary. It's not necessary in the U.S. because we have the means to protect society from violent criminals to ensure they never hurt another person again. It can be done. However, this same assurance cannot be granted to society in a Third World nation where the same protection/defenses to protect society from a violent criminal are limited at best. Thus, while I'm morally against capital punishment if you have a violent criminal and cannot protect society from the violent criminal with highly reasonable means (i.e. federal maximum prisons) then it may be necessary to execute a criminal. I don't like it - but sometimes it is necessary to protect society when a reasonable alternative means does not exist. The individual right to life of anyone (especially a convicted violent criminal or a Typhoid Mary for example) does not supersede the reasonable protection of society from harm.

I feel a bit like EvilNed in typing this which makes me feel a bit ill, but: Dr. Jennar as an individual should have the rights to live his life as he sees fit in a reasonable society. However, "The Walking Dead" is not set in a reasonable society - i.e. there is the potential that all of existence for humanity can be wiped out. His medical expertise and knowledge is too valuable to society in which extinction is a possibility (or moreso, a probability). His individual rights are superseded in such a society by the value of his knowledge in pertaining to the continued existence of humanity.

Morally I believe in his individual rights and the sacred nature of them - but you must weigh individual rights against the overarching nature of ALL of humanity as it stands. Just as a violent criminal in a Third World society should be executed (even though I'm morally against it) so should Dr. Jennar be challenged by any means necessary from bringing about his end when it causes the greater damage to society as a whole (even though I may morally be against the curtailing of individual rights). You have to weigh the individual rights of an individual against the greater impact of the world itself. While it would have been impeding his individual rights to drag him out of there kicking and screaming, and I'd normally be against such a thing, in the predicament the survivors find themselves in to lose such knowledge and expertise in such a situation must also be considered against this as well. As much as I hate to say it, and in 98% of situations I am against it, sometimes the greater good of humanity must trump individual liberties and rights as a necessity (as it would in an extinction type event). I don't like it - I don't say it lightly either as it's ill for me to even consider - but it is what it is.

II. Dale and Andrea

After a great deal of consideration, I agree with others here that Dale was an asshole in keeping Andrea's weapon away from her and came across as being a condescending patriarch. He was wrong here. However, I cannot fault him for wanting to either die with Andrea or have her change her mind to leave the CDC. He made a comment that really struck me, and I'm paraphrasing, but he said something along the lines of: "You don't get to do that! You don't get to come into someone's life and then check out like that!". I think he's right.

Yes, it was her individual right to want to die - and I'm sympathetic under the circumstances (the alternative to which being a possibility that she'd be devoured, or still may be devoured, by zombies). I can certainly relate (in considering the world she lives in) to where she's coming from with her thought process. However, suicide is not only an individual decision as it affects EVERYONE around you. I have no doubt whatsoever that if Andrea had killed herself Dale would not have been far behind in following her decision in killing himself in his state of mind. Thus, directly or indirectly, Andrea's individual decision to kill herself would have resulted in the death of another individual - which means that her decision would have been higher than an individual right to make a personal decision as it was infringing on Dale's livelihood.

Yes, Dale emotionally manipulated her and did what he had to do to ensure she didn't kill herself forthright. I do not mean to cast Dale as being a "Good Guy" in this respect. What he did can be seen, and I certainly understand where Wyld and others are coming from, as being wrong. However, her death would, in probability, have also resulted in the death of Dale. Who else could fix the R/V if it broke down? How would her death have impacted the group as a whole with both her loss and Dale's probable loss as well? Again, in an extinction type of event her individual liberties must be weighed against the greater good of the possible causation of the greater loss of humanity. If she had killed herself Dale's death, even if he may have held the gun to his head, would have still been blood on her hands. She would have been an accessory to murder if Dale had killed himself at best and at worst directly responsible for Dale's suicide. The individual right to make decisions for oneself does not supersede the greater impact of causing irrefutable harm on society (or what remains of it) as a whole such as the world the folks of TWD find themselves in.

Wyld mentioned in another post that you should do all you can to persuade someone to not kill themselves but you should not use manipulation or coercion for the purpose. I disagree. Suicide is not a debate for "individual rights" in my book because it's not an individual right as it's directly affecting everyone around you to some degree or another. I don't have a child but if I did and my child was contemplating suicide I'd say fuck their individual choice in killing themselves whether it would be through persuasion or coercion because it's not an "individual choice" in this regard. I feel the same way towards my grandparents and parents. If my mom or dad tried to kill themselves they may not hold a handgun up to my grandparents head and kill them - but they are ultimately doing the same thing as their death would cause the death of my grandparents through the tragedy. If coercion is necessary in this regard - so be it.

Dale may not have been righteous in the way he handled the saving of not only Andrea's life and his own, but I can't fault him for his argument that someone doesn't have a RIGHT (as it is not an individual right) in taking their life - especially in such a situation where Dale is almost essential to the survival of the group. Nor did Dr. Jennar for that matter - I would have dragged him out of there as well.

These are merely my own musings and thoughts. I mean no offense to anyone in positing my thoughts on the matter. Wyld, as always I value your feedback and I'm glad you're here at HPotD as you make me think in a way really no other person here makes me think - and I thank you for it.

j.p.

[shootemindehead]

on the subject of morality, i'll say i have a very, very slippery sense of it.

Morallity is horseshit bu an large. People change their "morals" to suit the circumstances and/or themselves.

-- -------- Post added at 03:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 AM ----------


While I agree with the thought of self and family preservation, you never really know about people. You could meet a perfectly normal person and they later turn out to be a hazard. At the same time, you could also meet a potential hazard that later turns out to be a valuable ally. Much like Daryl. Toward the beginning of the first season I thought he was no good for the group as a whole, but now he's proven himslef to be a huge help. He's now needed.

Humans are a weird bunch. You can't judge them by first appearances.

Yes, but Daryl has never exhibited the silly danger that Merle clearly posed. Frankly, I would have no problem with ending it all for Merle in a second, because his nature is obvious. Within two minutes of his appearance in Series 1.

[Mike70]

Yes, but Daryl has never exhibited the silly danger that Merle clearly posed. Frankly, I would have no problem with ending it all for Merle in a second, because his nature is obvious. Within two minutes of his appearance in Series 1.

yeah, um, merle would've been shot in the head straight off. no handcuffs, no leaving him behind, simply bang!

there is not a single human problem that a bullet or the proper amount of TNT cannot solve.

oh and:
"Brevity is a great charm of eloquence."
Marcus Tullius Cicero

[JDFP]

If some people have problems with reading longer posts - don't read them. It's that simple.

If I'm going to express my thoughts on something or give a response to other mindful posters on a subject I'm not going to half-ass it, I'm going to express my full opinion on it.

j.p.

[Wyldwraith]

I agree JDFP (about the longer posting, I mean. I respect for you it.),
I thank you for your kind words, and it means a good deal to someone in my situation to know my voice is heard and at times appreciated, or even helpful. I'll also say that I respect the MANNER in which you express yourself, even when you are vehemently disagreeing with someone, a great deal.

I'll try to address my responses point-by-point as you have.

I. The Individual's Right of Self-Determination Vs. The Needs of the Many Outweighing that Right:
JDFP: I get what you're saying on this issue. In other words, you're basically saying "Desperate times call for desperate measures." It's the same basis as the premise for imposing Martial Law on a society in distress. However, our Founding Fathers (some at least, and maybe more that we simply don't retain documentation on) vehemently disagreed with this premise. Benjamin Franklin was the most eloquent of these, printing in his famous Poor Richards Almanac "A society willing to sacrifice freedom for security deserves neither."

That's an intellectual disagreement though. Here's what I feel personally: Should "the Many" get what they need by "suspending" the individual's right to choose for themselves even once, the Many will soon find justification to "suspend" personal liberty again to get what they need, and then again, and again, and again. Until finally the Many no longer even bother to pretend They are "suspending" this or that individual's freedoms, and at last do away with the very notion that ANY INDIVIDUAL has a RIGHT to their personal liberty. Oh yes, the Many may well survive the Apocalypse by resorting to these means. By then, however, the MANY will have become something that....if it were within MY power, I would PERSONALLY consign to extinction and RIGHTFULLY SO. Why? Because the Many have become nothing but a mass of bodies dominated by, and dominating ALL OTHER BY mob-rule. In other words, the lowest sort of tyranny. The kind the French have GOOD REASON to refer to in their history as The Terror.

Suspension of personal liberty for group needs, taken to its logical conclusion leads only to the DESTRUCTION of all liberty and freedom of any sort that makes the individual secure in their person.

I'll continue this later. My back is KILLING ME, and I don't see a Save Draft function.

Continuing:
II. The Dale and Andrea conflict:
JDFP, I respect your right to your own opinion and would even fight to defend your right to have that opinion. HOWEVER, as someone who sacrificed HIS FUTURE to save a young woman from irreparable emotional/psychological harm and in all likelihood her actual life by taking on all FOUR of her would-be-gang-rapists late one night at a LARPing Convention alone, I possess the moral authority as someone who's "been there, done that" to say the following:

You CANNOT and SHOULD NOT FORCE what you consider to be "saving" on another human being. Furthermore, if the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are self-evident as we as a society have agreed they are, and a great many of our forefathers fought, lost their futures (As I have, though not in service nearly as exalted as theirs), and died to defend, then implicit in those last two rights is the RIGHT of the Individual to die on terms of their own choosing in the event such choice is made with a sound mind, and that choice is being made to escape a fate WORSE than simple death.

Andrea was not hysterical. She was not exhibiting symptoms of PTSD, a Major Depressive Episode (this one I'm INTIMATELY familiar with), or any other psychological pathology that the law recognizes as rendering an individual "not of sound mind, or a danger to themselves or others". Now, before you seize on that 2nd part, let me say that just as in your opinion the extraordinary circumstances occurring in TWD-world justify otherwise unjustifiable acts, I believe the EXTREMELY HIGH and DAILY threat of being EATEN ALIVE by 1 or more unnatural monsters for so long as her natural life continues, constitutes more than sufficient justification for an individual choosing to die instantly, painlessly, and at a time of their own choosing.

I do not accept, and if necessary would fight to the death until my very last breath any attempt to deny someone their Right to Die under such circumstances. In our world of therapy, courses of medication to control mental pathologies alone or as supplement to such therapy, and a society 99.85% free of the danger of being torn apart and eaten alive. In OUR world, the case can be made that "self-euthanasia" is NOT JUSTIFIABLE, on the SOLE GROUNDS that reasonable alternatives and methods of relieving daily suffering are available. In the event they are not (such as in the cases of those afflicted with terminal and/or quality-of-life-destroying disease) I believe the Right to Die is valid, humane and moral.

How can I say this, yet claim to believe in God, Christ and His/Their Word? This is how: The Bible describes a Suicide as "a sentry deserting their post." In the event the Sentry is dying, or about to become incapable of taking any positive action due to the aforementioned diseases, the Sentry is ALREADY ABSENT from their post.

In other words: I do not believe the loving God I put my faith in would demand I lay in a bed being diapered and changed when I unknowingly soil myself as I lay twitching, insensible and moaning in unremitting agony that has destroyed whatever remnants of Self the disease did not, for the next 50 years of my life.

Do you JDFP? Does anyone?

I'm glad we agree on the issue of Dale stealing Andrea's gun, and will have more to say about that later in the Bloodletting Thread.

Courteously awaiting your reply.

[babomb]

i completely lack things like empathy & compassion for other people and there are emotions that you take for granted that i cannot even experience and probably wouldn't recognize even if i did. i also cannot feel the reciprocation of emotion back from other people most of the time. that's the worst part of the entire thing. Merle is definitely a sociopath and would be the downfall of any group he was attached to. Unless it were a group of other people of the same mindset, but that would be more like a pack of scavengers than an actual group. Everyone would be out for themselves only, they'd act on impulse and put themselves and others at risk for little to no gain. That group would not make it far at all because everyone would throw the person next to them under the bus until there's only 1 left. Then that person would end up making an impulsive decision that would be their downfall.

1 thing about this group though for being survivors, they can't scrounge for shit! That freeway had cars with full luggage racks, SUV's packed with supplies, they barely take anything it seems. It takes Shane a little while to realize there might be water in that truck. Doesn't Shane have a military background? There's no scouts, nobody knows what to do when separated, seems like nobody is thinking.

[SymphonicX]

What a phenomenal opening to the second season. Very creepy, suspenseful, very well done indeed.

Seems I've rucked up at the end of this very existentialist, philosophical discussion on this episode which I can't be bothered to read, so I'll leave it there. Good episode, character motivations again seem pretty spot on, no annoying antagonists using wafer thin justifications to move the plot forward - it's a dream really, taking everything Romero has done and moving it into it's much needed modern space.

[Ragnarr]

I just remember the church bells!!! tell me how the hell that sound system would be going off when there's no power?! Inconsistencies much?

Not sure why there was power for the church bells. Perhaps I was still dizzy wondering why a methodist church would have JC on its cross inside the church. Methodist churches display a simple cross without the figure of JC upon it. When the TWD writers drop the ball, they usually do so like a football player who just scored a touchdown in the end zone. Wow!

[mpokera]

Someone else mentioned that Dr. Jennar should have been knocked out and dragged out of the place if necessary. I agree and I applauded at the comment.

Glad to hear at least one person agrees with me on this! And took to the time to spell out the same reasons I gave but in greater detail, thanks and I agree totally.

As for Dale and Andrea, again I think him taking and keeping her gun was totally out of line. As for manipulating her out of the CDC, totally different matter. Suicide isnt even allowed in present times folks. Try telling a police officer you are planning to go home and kill yourself and see what happens. They will certainly prevent you, including if necessary taking away your precious freedom to choose, "for your own good". And thats in a world where there are way too many people already, the situation they are dealing with is approx. 10,254,741,415 times worse! I think, as stated before, the only mistake was in only coercing Andrea and leaving the other two.

[Ragnarr]

Glad to hear at least one person agrees with me on this! And took to the time to spell out the same reasons I gave but in greater detail, thanks and I agree totally.

As for Dale and Andrea, again I think him taking and keeping her gun was totally out of line. As for manipulating her out of the CDC, totally different matter. Suicide isnt even allowed in present times folks. Try telling a police officer you are planning to go home and kill yourself and see what happens. They will certainly prevent you, including if necessary taking away your precious freedom to choose, "for your own good". And thats in a world where there are way too many people already, the situation they are dealing with is approx. 10,254,741,415 times worse! I think, as stated before, the only mistake was in only coercing Andrea and leaving the other two.

Under NORMAL circumstances, one would attempt to prevent another's suicide. As far as Dr. Jennar and (almost) Andrea who are hopelessly trapped in a world infested with hungry walkers, I would think that it should be totally their choice whether to check out or not. Their choices are between a quick virtually painless death and a slower terribly agonizing one. Dale only rescued Andrea because HE couldn't bare for her to check out. He wasn't rescuing her for her own sake. Just my opinion of course.

[Buzzbomb]

Just re-watching 1-3 in anticipation of the 4th series...

What happened to the boat/canoe that was on top of the RV in Series 1? It was still there when they left the CDC...

[MinionZombie]

Just re-watching 1-3 in anticipation of the 4th series...

What happened to the boat/canoe that was on top of the RV in Series 1? It was still there when they left the CDC...

Maybe they ditched it to trim some of the fat from the RV to save weight?

It's a shame that not every single bit of deleted footage was included on the DVD set - we saw a glimpse of it in the season 2 comic-con trailer (with Shane running from a horde of walkers, shooting his shotgun, on a highway). Perhaps it was shown in there somewhere - maybe it fell off?

I should have my Blu-Ray of season 3 shortly (first time getting TWD in HD), so I'm looking forward to giving that another spin (I did seasons 1 and 2 again in the last couple of weeks). :)

[Moon Knight]

It's a shame that not every single bit of deleted footage was included on the DVD set - we saw a glimpse of it in the season 2 comic-con trailer (with Shane running from a horde of walkers, shooting his shotgun, on a highway). Perhaps it was shown in there somewhere - maybe it fell off?


Supposedly, they were going to go back to the Vatos but quickly learned that they had been overrun by the walkers. Shane running and the scene where Rick says "To hell with the noise" before firing his gun were all filmed there but was scrapped and they went straight to the highway for the 2x1 opener.

[MinionZombie]

Supposedly, they were going to go back to the Vatos but quickly learned that they had been overrun by the walkers. Shane running and the scene where Rick says "To hell with the noise" before firing his gun were all filmed there but was scrapped and they went straight to the highway for the 2x1 opener.

Aye I know that stuff, but my point is that not all of that footage makes it into the Deleted Scenes section of the DVD. Some of it does, but not all it (such as Shane with his shotgun running from the walkers on the road - seen in the trailer, not seen in the show or the deleted scenes). I wonder why. :confused: