Gadaffi Killed Or Captured by Libyan Forces

[AcesandEights]

Looks like they've got him. First saying he was wounded and captured (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15385955) and then later saying he had succumbed to his wounds (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/20/us-libya-idUSTRE79F1FK20111020?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=71).

The wording of the article also makes it sound like he could have been executed outright, but that could just be the awkward way the writers worded the opening line: "His killing, which came swiftly after his capture."

[Mr. Clean]

Good Deal!

[Mike70]

another dictator bites the dust. looks like they went a bit Mussolini on him.

[slickwilly13]

Best news I have read, since waking up.

[babomb]

Doesn't it seem like the whole fuckin world is minutes away from implosion???

[Mike70]

Doesn't it seem like the whole fuckin world is minutes away from implosion???

yeah. the 21st century seems to be one that is going to be filled with all manner of fun and games. unfortunately, without the gift bags that should go along.

[Tricky]

A certain "middle east peace envoy" and former British prime minister will be weeping alone today due to the loss of such a lucrative friend...
Good riddance I say, Gaddafi had blood from all over the world on his hands after supplying weapons to the IRA, ordering the Lockerbie bombing, selling arms to Iraqi insurgents, killing his own people etc.

[acealive1]

not saying its bad they got him, but they shoulda learned from their mistake with saddam and just waited

[SymphonicX]

Ding dong.....

Which o' witch?

The wicked witch!

Bear in mind that the NTC has been involved in some VERY shady events during this time, remind yourselves that the west has a specific interest in Libya. Also remind yourselves that this "revolution" isn't as clear cut as it appears on television.

With all that said...he's gone! Great news for democracy you'd hope. Let's just PRAY Libya doesn't tear itself apart in the proceeding years. Which it will.

As Stauffenberg said in Valkyrie "The painting will be unhung, and the man will be hung"

OK so it's technically "hanged" and yeah, he was shot...but there you go.

At least they didn't have to bother with a 90minute show trial ala Ceaucescu in Romania before taking him outside and executing him.

[shootemindehead]

I think there's many a hypocritical western politician who's delighted that Gadaffi was murdered and they didn't "wait". Here is a man (and a regime) that's been propped up by western "democracies" for decades, right up to a couple of years ago and now, the rats are coming out of the woodwork to gloat over his killing?

It's a fucking joke.

In addition, the head of these so called rebels, Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi, has admitted links to Al Qaeda.

But, no doubt the western leaders will be happy that they're in on the ground floor this time, Libya having the largest African oil reserve and all.

Of course, that would have nothing to do with their support for the "rebels", would it.

[SymphonicX]

and I figured, this time I'll drop you some text on the subject:

The War in Libya is a Fraud: Using Human Rights Organizations To Launch Wars
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article29255.htm

Massacre of Blacks in Libya By NATO-backed Rebels Continues As World Watches
United Nations Says "No Comment" On Ethnic Cleansing Of Black Libyans
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26643

Witch-hunts in "free" Libya
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26643

And a youtube for the non-readers....to be fair I didn't get to watch this one but it was posted by a mate. This one concerns the Gaddaffi's plan to introduce an African Gold Dinah as currency...worth watching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O35_Ai6EsMU&feature=share


NTC admits to attacking women and children:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEvsKv0Tzuo&feature=youtu.be

This is another one I haven't had chance to watch:

journalist threatened By Allies Do Not GO AGAINST NATO PROPAGANDA OR BE KILLED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df7d-gCG8aw&feature=share

-- -------- Post added at 10:17 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------

So maybe, we can hold off on our rendition of "ding dong the witch is dead"

[Tricky]

Despite the fact that Gadaffi was an absolute bastard and many people probably died in worse ways to what he did on his orders, after seeing the footage of him when the rebels captured him alive but wounded & the immediate aftermath of his death, I still felt a very human empathy for him at that moment, the guy probably felt a very real fear for the first time in his life at that point and was completely helpless to do anything about it. He deserved it without a doubt, but to actually see him stripped of all his power and dignity and at the hands of a baying mob, its hard not to feel a bit sorry for him for me strangely enough

[thxleo]

Despite the fact that Gadaffi was an absolute bastard and many people probably died in worse ways to what he did on his orders, after seeing the footage of him when the rebels captured him alive but wounded & the immediate aftermath of his death, I still felt a very human empathy for him at that moment, the guy probably felt a very real fear for the first time in his life at that point and was completely helpless to do anything about it. He deserved it without a doubt, but to actually see him stripped of all his power and dignity and at the hands of a baying mob, its hard not to feel a bit sorry for him for me strangely enough

That simply means that you are a decent human being. I understand exactly what you are talking about. Watching a bunch of savages parade him around was disturbing. Not because you sympathize with his plight, but because you understand that everyone should be treated humanely. Even if they are a scumbag, murderous, snake. That's what separates us from animals.

[Rancid Carcass]

He deserved it without a doubt, but to actually see him stripped of all his power and dignity and at the hands of a baying mob, its hard not to feel a bit sorry for him for me strangely enough

Yeah, I agree. The worrying thing about that was that these guys went to war against a regime to put a stop to that kind of thing and all they've done (well, this group of men at least), is prove that the are no better than the people they've ousted. Makes you wonder in just how many decades will we be sending in the planes to remove this lot... Don't get me wrong I'm hoping for the best but it's not a great start.

[shootemindehead]

It would have been better (not for everyone, of course) to have him alive and answer some of the allegations that he been accused of, even just to find out where the truth lies. Because, the vast majority of the dirt against him IS simple allegation by his enemies, whether we like it or not. There's nothing been proven, but nearly everyone has been primed by successful grooming to believe that this man was the latest Hitler, who kept his people under the yoke of the worse kind of tyranny.

Personally, I doubt that was the case.

I also find it disturbing that these "rebels" and incumbent power brokers, have admitted links to the same organisation that's said to have been responsible for 9/11. In addition, some of their leaders have caled for the introduction of Sharia Law in Libya, where it's influence had been limited to property under Gaddafi. Incidentally, Gaddafi was also instrumental in keeping Al Qaeda influence out of the region and had worked with his neighbours to extend that mission across North Africa.

These "rebels" also stand accused of some appaling conduct, especially against the sub-Saharan members of Libya's population. I stumbled across a video showing a vicious beheading of a "black" Libyan today, that trumps the video of Gaddafi's murder by a long shot.

I also saw footage of Hilary Clinton celebrating and laughing over this man's murder, which I found sickening too.

It's ironic that the west, has now opened the door to the Al Qaeda to guide the political situation in the country and frackly, if al-Hasidi (and his Al Qaeda backed mod) decide to launch a few planes into a western country, then the west will only have itself to blame.

Is Libyan oil really worth it?

[Legion2213]

Despite the fact that Gadaffi was an absolute bastard and many people probably died in worse ways to what he did on his orders, after seeing the footage of him when the rebels captured him alive but wounded & the immediate aftermath of his death, I still felt a very human empathy for him at that moment, the guy probably felt a very real fear for the first time in his life at that point and was completely helpless to do anything about it. He deserved it without a doubt, but to actually see him stripped of all his power and dignity and at the hands of a baying mob, its hard not to feel a bit sorry for him for me strangely enough

It wasn't nice to watch was it. Then again, we haven't had our relatives raped, murdered and brutalised by him/his henchmen/secret police, so, I won't judge them too harshly.

Still, I'm glad the fucker is dead...unlike lot's of Guardian readers weeping and wailing at the loss of another anti-western hero.

[shootemindehead]

I have no idea on the veracity of the below, but here's some of the oppression that the Libyans had to endure under Gadaffi:

* GDP per capita – $ 14,192.
* Unemployment benefit – $ 730.
* Each family member subsidized by the state gets annually $ 1.000
* Salary for nurses – $ 1.000.
* For every newborn is paid $ 7.000.
* The bride and groom receive a $ 64 thousand to purchase flats.
* Major taxes and levies prohibited.
* To open a personal business a one-time financial assistance of $ 20.000
* Education and medicine are free.
* Educ.Internships abroad – at government expense.
* Stores for large families with symbolic prices for basic foodstuffs.
* Part of pharmacies – with free dispensing.
* Loans for buying a car and an apartment – no interest.
* Real estate services are prohibited.,
* Buying a car up to 50% paid by the State.
* No Payment for electricity for the population.
* Sales and use of alcohol is prohibited.
* Petrol is cheaper than water. 1 liter of gasoline – $ 0.14.

Also, the country had a human development index of .75. The same as some western societies. It poverty level was below that of Russia and parts of the US and it was one of the few thriving African nations. It had the highest literacy rate of it's neighbours and a youth literacy rate of 99%.

I wonder...are the Libyan people truly better off under a new power structure that supports this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E-CJguDnZ4

or worse still...this (warning, VERY graphic)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02a_1301531604

One thing I will wager on though, is given the make up of the rebel leadership, Libya will now become a haven for Al Qaeda and Al Qaeda symphathy. Not mention the fact that the Libyan people will now be paying back the west for their "warchest" for decades to come and trumping up the taxes for the obligatory "rebuilding" program to reconstitute the infrastruture destroyed by NATO bombing.

I wonder how long it'll take for the Libyans to realise that they have only changed a power structure and not the structure for actual "freedom".

[Legion2213]

The BBC paints a slightly different picture...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12532929

Bottom line: He was a dictator who had his enemies murdered while grooming his sons to take over when he died.

Your snarky, sneering use of the phrase "but here's some of the oppression that the Libyans had to endure under Gadaffi" is bang out of order and in piss poor taste. A dictatorship is a dictatorship, end of.

[shootemindehead]

Far from it being a "snarky" or "sneering" phrase, I found the information to be a bit of an eye opener in the light of Libya's recent portrayal and the parroting of said portrayal by people, who by and large, have no idea.

Here's another eye opener:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Destroying a Country's Standard of Living: What Libya Had Achieved, What has been Destroyed

by Prof. Michel Chossudovsky (Professor of Economics (Emeritus) at the University of Ottawa)

"There is no tomorrow" under a NATO sponsored Al Qaeda rebellion.

While a "pro-democracy" rebel government has been instated, the country has been destroyed.

Against the backdrop of war propaganda, Libya's economic and social achievements over the last thirty years, have been brutally reversed:

The [Libyan Arab Jamahiriya] has had a high standard of living and a robust per capita daily caloric intake of 3144. The country has made strides in public health and, since 1980, child mortality rates have dropped from 70 per thousand live births to 19 in 2009. Life expectancy has risen from 61 to 74 years of age during the same span of years. (FAO, Rome, Libya, Country Profile,)

According to sectors of the "Progressive Left" which have endorsed NATO's R2P mandate: "The mood across Libya, particularly in Tripoli, is absolutely —like there’s just a feeling of euphoria everywhere. People are incredibly excited about starting afresh. There’s a real sense of rebirth, a feeling that their lives are starting anew. (DemocracyNow.org, September 14, 2011 emphasis added)

The rebels are casually presented as "liberators". The central role of Al Qaeda affilated terrorists within rebel ranks is not mentioned.

"Starting afresh" in the wake of destruction? Fear and Social Despair, Countless Deaths and Atrocities, amply documented by the independent media.

No euphoria.... A historical reversal in the country's economic and social development has occurred. The achievements have been erased.

The NATO invasion and occupation marks the ruinous "rebirth" of Libya's standard of living That is the forbidden and unspoken truth: an entire Nation has been destabilized and destroyed, its people driven into abysmal poverty.

The objective of the NATO bombings from the outset was to destroy the country's standard of living, its health infrastructure, its schools and hospitals, its water distribution system.

And then "rebuild" with the help of donors and creditors under the helm of the IMF and the World Bank.

The diktats of the "free market" are a precondition for the instatement of a Western style "democratic dictatorship ".

About nine thousand strike sorties, tens of thousands of strikes on civilian targets including residential areas, government buildings, water supply and electricity generation facilities. (See NATO Communique, September 5, 2011. 8140 strike sorties from March 31 to September 5, 2011)

An entire nation has been bombed with the most advanced ordnance, including uranium coated ammunition.

Already in August, UNICEF warned that extensive NATO bombing of Libya's water infrastructure "could turn into an unprecedented health epidemic “ (Christian Balslev-Olesen of UNICEF's Libya Office, August 2011).

Meanwhile investors and donors have positioned themselves. "War is Good for Business'. NATO, the Pentagon and the Washington based international financial institutions (IFIs) operate in close coordination. What has been destroyed by NATO will be rebuilt, financed by Libya's external creditors under the helm of the "Washington Consensus":

"Specifically, the [World] Bank has been asked to examine the need for repair and restoration of services in the water, energy and transport sectors [bombed by NATO] and, in cooperation with the International Monetary Fund, to support budget preparation [austerity measures] and help the banking sector back on to its feet [The Libyan Central bank was one of the first government buildings to be bombed]. Employment generation for young Libyans has been added as an urgent need facing the country." (World Bank to Help Libya Rebuild and Deliver Essential Services to Citizens emphasis added)

Libya's Development Achievements

Whatever one's views regarding Moamar Gadaffi, the post-colonial Libyan government played a key role in eliminating poverty and developing the country's health and educational infrastructure. According to Italian Journalist Yvonne de Vito, "Differently from other countries that went through a revolution – Libya is considered to be the Switzerland of the African continent and is very rich and schools are free for the people. Hospitals are free for the people. And the conditions for women are much better than in other Arab countries." (Russia Today, August 25, 2011)

These developments are in sharp contrast to what most Third World countries were able to "achieve" under Western style "democracy" and "governance" in the context of a standard IMF-World Bank Structural Adjustment program (SAP).

Public Health Care

Public Health Care in Libya prior to NATO's "Humanitarian Intervention" was the best in Africa. "Health care is [was] available to all citizens free of charge by the public sector. The country boasts the highest literacy and educational enrolment rates in North Africa. The Government is [was] substantially increasing the development budget for health services.... (WHO Libya Country Brief )

Confirmed by the Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), undernourishment was less than 5 %, with a daily per capita calorie intake of 3144 calories. (FAO caloric intake figures indicate availability rather than consumption).

The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya provided to its citizens what is denied to many Americans: Free public health care, free education, as confirmed by WHO and UNESCO data.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO): Life expectancy at birth was 72.3 years (2009), among the highest in the developing World.

Under 5 mortality rate per 1000 live births declined from 71 in 1991 to 14 in 2009
(http://www.who.int/countryfocus/cooperation_strategy/ccsbrief_lby_en.pdf)


Libyan Arab Jamahiriya General information
2009
Total population (000)
6 420
Annual population growth rate (%) ^
2.0
Population 0-14 years (%)
28
Rural population (%) ^
22
Total fertility rate (births per woman) ^
2.6
Infant mortality rate (0/00) ^
17
Life expectancy at birth (years) ^
75

GDP per capita (PPP) US$ ^
16 502
GDP growth rate (%) ^
2.1
Total debt service as a % of GNI ^
...
Children of primary school-age who are out of school (%)
(1978) 2
Source: UNESCO. Libya Country Profile

Libyan Arab Jamahiriya (2009)

Total life expectancy at birth (years) 72.3
Male life expectancy at birth (years) 70.2
Female life expectancy at birth (years) 74.9
Newborns with low birth weight (%) 4.0
Children underweight (%) 4.8
Perinatal mortality rate per 1000 total births 19
Neonatal mortality rate 11.0
Infant mortality rate (per 1000 live births) 14.0
Under five mortality rate (per 1000 live births) 20.1
Maternal mortality ratio (per 10000 live births) 23

Source WHO http://www.emro.who.int/emrinfo/index.aspx?Ctry=liy


Education

The adult literacy rate was of the order of 89%, (2009), (94% for males and 83% for females). 99.9% of youth are literate (UNESCO 2009 figures, See UNESCO, Libya Country Report)

Gross primary school enrolment ratio was 97% for boys and 97% for girls (2009) .
(see UNESCO tables at http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/document.aspx?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=4340&BR_Region=40525

The pupil teacher ratio in Libya's primary schools was of the order of 17 (1983 UNESCO data), 74% of school children graduating from primary school were enrolled in secondary school (1983 UNESCO data).

Based on more recent date, which confirms a marked increase in school enrolment, the Gross Enrolment Ratio (GER) in secondary schools was of the order of 108% in 2002. The GER is the number of pupils enrolled in a given level of education regardless of age expressed as a percentage of the population in the theoretical age group for that level of education.

For tertiary enrolment (postsecondary, college and university), the Gross Enrolment Ratio (GER) was of the order of 54% in 2002 (52 for males, 57 for females).
(For further details see http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/document.aspx?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=4340&BR_Region=40525

Women's Rights

With regard to Women's Rights, World Bank data point to significant achievements.

"In a relative short period of time, Libya achieved universal access for primary education, with 98% gross enrollment for secondary, and 46% for tertiary education. In the past decade, girls’ enrollment increased by 12% in all levels of education. In secondary and tertiary education, girls outnumbered boys by 10%." (World Bank Libya Country Brief, emphasis added)

Price Controls over Essential Food Staples

In most developing countries, essential food prices have skyrocketed, as a result of market deregulation, the lifting of price controls and the eliminaiton of subsidies, under "free market" advice from the World Bank and the IMF.

In recent years, essential food and fuel prices have spiralled as a result of speculative trade on the major commodity exchanges.

Libya was one of the few countries in the developing World which maintained a system of price controls over essential food staples.

World Bank President Robert Zoellick acknowledged in an April 2011 statement that the price of essential food staples had increased by 36 percent in the course of the last year. See Robert Zoellick, World Bank

The Libyan Arab Jamahiriya had established a system of price controls over essential food staples, which was maintained until the onset of the NATO led war.

While rising food prices in neighbouring Tunisia and Egypt spearheaded social unrest and political dissent, the system of food subsidies in Libya was maintained.

These are the facts confirmed by several UN specialised agencies.

"Missile Diplomacy" and "The Free Market"

War and Globalization are intiricately related. The IMF and NATO work in tandem, in liason with the Washington think tanks.

The NATO operation purports to enforce the neoliberal economic agenda. Countries which are reluctant to accept the sugar coated bullets of IMF "economic medicine" will eventually be the object of a R2P NATO humanitarian operation.

Déjà Vu? Under the British Empire, "gun boat diplomacy" was a means to imposing "free trade". On October 5, 1850, England's Envoy to the Kingdom of Siam, Sir James Brooke recommended to Her Majesty's government that:

"should these just demands [to impose free trade] be refused, a force should be present, immediately to enforce them by the rapid destruction of the defenses of the [Chaopaya] river... Siam may be taught the lesson which it has long been tempting-- its Government may be remodelled, A better disposed king placed on the throne and an influence acquired in the country which will make it of immense commercial importance to England" (The Mission of Sir James Brooke, quoted in M.L. Manich Jumsai, King Mongkut and Sir John Bowring, Chalermit, Bangkok, 1970, p. 23)

Today we call it "Regime Change" and "Missile Diplomacy" which invariably takes the shape of a UN sponsored "No Fly Zone". Its objective is to impose the IMF's deadly "economic medicine" of austerity measures and privatization.

The World Bank financed "reconstruction" programs of war torn countries are coordinated with US-NATO military planning. They are invariably formulated prior to onslaught of the military campaign...

Confiscating Libyan Financial Assets

Libya`s frozen overseas financial assets are estimated to be of the order of $150 billion, with NATO countries holding more than $100 billion.

Prior to the war, Libya had no debts. In fact quite the opposite. It was a creditor nation investing in neighboring African countries.

The R2P military intervention is intended to spearhead the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya into the straightjacket of an indebted developing country, under the surveillance of the Washington based Bretton Woods institutions.

In a bitter irony, after having stolen Libya's oil wealth and confiscated its overseas financial assets, the "donor community" has pledged to lend the (stolen) money back to finance Libya's post-war "reconstruction". Libya is slated to join the ranks of indebted African countries which have driven into poverty by IMF and the World Bank since the onsalught of the debt crisis in the early 1980s:

The IMF promised a further $35-billion in funding [loans] to countries affected by Arab Spring uprisings and formally recognized Libya’s ruling interim council as a legitimate power, opening up access to a myriad of international lenders as the country [Libya] looks to rebuild after a six-month war. ...

Getting IMF recognition is significant for Libya’s interim leaders as it means international development banks and donors such as the World Bank can now offer financing.

The Marseille talks came a few days after world leaders agreed in Paris to free up billions of dollars in frozen assets [stolen money] to help [through loans] Libya’s interim rulers restore vital services and rebuild after a conflict that ended a 42-year dictatorship.

The financing deal by the Group of Seven major economies plus Russia is aimed at supporting reform efforts [IMF sponsored structural adjustment] in the wake of uprisings in North Africa and the Middle East.

The financing is mostly in the form of loans, rather than outright grants, and is provided half by G8 and Arab countries and half by various lenders and development banks. (Financial Post, September 10, 2011.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________________



Bottom line: He was a dictator who had his enemies murdered while grooming his sons to take over when he died.

...and one that was feted by the west up until a couple of years ago, who has now been replaced with a group of Islamic rebels, with links to the organisation who have been named responsible for 9/11 and 7/7.

The hypocrisy is staggering.

[SymphonicX]

Libya & QADDAFI ...FACTS THAT CANT BE DENIED
1. There is no electricity bill in... Libya; electricity is free
for all its citizens.

2. There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are
state-owned and loans given
to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

3. Home considered a human right in Libya –
Gaddafi vowed that his parents
would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a
home. Gaddafi’s father has
died while him, his wife and his mother are still living
in a tent.

4. All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$
50,000 ) by the government
to buy their first apartment so to help start up the
family.

5. Education and medical treatments are free in
Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25%
of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.

6. Should Libyans want to take up farming career,
they would receive farming
land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and
livestock to kick- start their farms
– all for free.

7. If Libyans cannot find the education or medical
facilities they need in Libya,
the government funds them to go abroad for it –
not only free but they get US
$2, 300/mth accommodation and car allowance.

8. In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government
subsidized 50% of the price.

9. The price of petrol in Libya is $0. 14 per liter.

10. Libya has no external debt and its reserves
amount to $150 billion – now
frozen globally.

11. If a Libyan is unable to get employment after
graduation the state would
pay the average salary of the profession as if he or
she is employed until
employment is found.

12. A portion of Libyan oil sale is, credited directly to
the bank accounts of all
Libyan citizens.

13. A mother who gave birth to a child receive US
$5 ,000

14. 40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

15. 25% of Libyans have a university degree

16. Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation
project, known as the Great
Man-Made River project, to make water readily
available throughout the desert
country.

--------------------------------------

All you've got to ask yourself is this....Does Robert Mugabe have the ability to claim even similar "progressions" in his country? No. Arguably, he's a lot worse. Arguably, he's a lot worse than Saddam Hussein, Armedinejhad, and Qaddaffi put together.

Why aren't we in Zimbabwe?


As I said, the guy was a tyrant, an oppressor, and no doubt about it, slightly mad. One has to ask themselves though, was he the worst? What about the Syrian leader? Who's been killing his own civilians for months now...No NATO there eh?

Anyone who believes this is clear cut removal of a dictator is wrong. This is nothing like Ceaucescu.

These discussions take me right back to TWAT (the war against terror). Back in the day on the Rob Halford board I remember arguing a similar point - not that Saddam Hussein wasn't BAD, just that there were and are more dictators and oppressors out there that are much, much worse. With that knowledge behind you, you should be asking yourselves why NATO gets involved with one Arab spring, and not another. You have to ask yourself this, because if you sit back there and drink a pint of fluoride, whilst not giving a shit either way, you really aren't helping the world pool a relevant opinion. In fact, arguably, you're contributing to the world's shit by blindly believing that this NATO led coup was noble and without political interests on all sides. But of course, you can flame me and call me a Guardian reading hippy all you like, doesn't change the text that has already been presented to you.

[Mike70]

yeah, and Hitler made the trains run on time and put germany back to work.

none of this bullshit makes up for any of the shit gaddafi pulled.

it's the nazi with a puppy dog fallacy.

[SymphonicX]

yeah, and Hitler made the trains run on time and put germany back to work.

none of this bullshit makes up for any of the shit gaddafi pulled.

it's the nazi with a puppy dog fallacy.



*pulls out first generation Nintendo Gameboy*
*rifles through and picks game called "Devil's Advocate"*
*turns on gameboy*

Actually, it was meant to be Mussolini that made the trains run on time, and in actual fact, he didn't. They ran no better during his reign than they did when after or before he was in power. True story :) That's a myth created a long time ago, with no actual proof.

But yeah I take your point about that but again, I need to iterate - no one's saying that he was God's gift to democracy or the free world - he wasn't, he WAS a murderous tyrant. All I'm and others are saying is "look at the bigger picture" - take into account everything, I mean EVERYTHING that you know he has done, good and bad, and then compare that to your average war mongering Mugabe type...if that doesn't leave you with questions, nothing will.

yeah it's great that he's out of power, better for the bigger picture (MAYBE) - but ends and means NEVER justify themselves in the real world - and providing aid for one country that you have specific interests in whilst ignoring others who are in a worse state, has to tell you something, especially as innocent people are continuing to be slaughtered in places like Syria.

Its fishy, its horrible, and its a sad indictment of modern politics and how it's intermingled with bought parliaments/congresses. It's NOT clear cut, and it doesn't matter if Qaddaffi or Mussolini or whoever made trains run on time or not - the bottom line is one is more important to take out than another - why is that?

[Danny]

That simply means that you are a decent human being. I understand exactly what you are talking about. Watching a bunch of savages parade him around was disturbing. Not because you sympathize with his plight, but because you understand that everyone should be treated humanely. Even if they are a scumbag, murderous, snake. That's what separates us from animals.

Most sane people would agree its how a person acts and treats their enemies that really shows them for who they are as their own mask slips. Treating someone humanely and not giving into your own personal animosities it what defines the 'good guys' at the very literal end of the day.

[shootemindehead]

yeah, and Hitler made the trains run on time and put germany back to work.

none of this bullshit makes up for any of the shit gaddafi pulled.

it's the nazi with a puppy dog fallacy.

Perhaps and there's little doubt he was a shitbag. However, was he any worse than the Al Qaeda bunch that's found the door open for them in Libya now?

And when did Al Qaeda become the good guys?

I must have missed that memo.

I heard the other day that the head of the NTC is adamant in instituting Sharia Law in Libya. If true, that doesn't bode well.

[Mike70]

P
I heard the other day that the head of the NTC is adamant in instituting Sharia Law in Libya. If true, that doesn't bode well.

no that does not bode well at all. of all the forms of idiocy i have zero patience with religion is at the very top of the list. it is the WORST idea in the history of human beings. islam, christianity, judaism, hinduism, etc. - whatever you call it, it's the same bag of bullshit. more pain, murder, misery, rape and torture has been perpetrated throughout history in the name of religion than anything else i can think of. that completely disgusting document known as the bible is full of such things, all meted out under the authority of "god."

essh sorry, religious talk brings out the worst in me. just a note to further posters: i could give a flying fuck less about your personal "beliefs" or your "rights" to believe in drivel that a fucking 4 year old should be able to see through.

i don't believe in freedom of religion. i believe in freedom FROM religion; that until we unhitch ourselves from such drivel our species is going to suffer just because one asshole thinks his holy jubatola that lives on the mountain is the truer way than your chubatla that lives in the forest and wants to kill you to show the jubatola is the true way.

[AcesandEights]

I heard the other day that the head of the NTC is adamant in instituting Sharia Law in Libya. If true, that doesn't bode well.

Hear the same over the weekend and agree it's pretty unsettling.

[Neil]

There's a (horrible) video here of Gadaffi's final moments... *NOT NICE WATCHING*

It appears he was sodomized at one point with a knife or something!


http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/111024/gaddafi-sodomized-video-gaddafi-sodomy

[EvilNed]

* Petrol is cheaper than water. 1 liter of gasoline – $ 0.14.


I fail to see what's so "great" about cheap gasoline? Communist as I am, I say rather build a public transport system. There are literally no good points to cheap oil, except maybe if you're fat and lazy.

EDIT: Besides... Being cheaper than Water? In a hot country like Libya? That's really f*cked up.

[Cody]

he was killed and humiliated just like mussolini so to speak. my grandpa was an american soldier in ww2 and saw mussolini being drug through the streets of italy and killed. I would of liked to see gadafhi put on trail, just like hitler and osama bin laden should have been. yes hitler offed himself, but what can ya do about that? I really dont think gadafhi should of been killed like that, I guess I'm "soft hearted" when I see people go through that type of humiliation / death, even though they got what was coming to them. but then again none of my family was hurt by his actions he did while leader. the libyan people on the other hand were

[Neil]

he was killed and humiliated just like mussolini so to speak. my grandpa was an american soldier in ww2 and saw mussolini being drug through the streets of italy and killed. I would of liked to see gadafhi put on trail, just like hitler and osama bin laden should have been. yes hitler offed himself, but what can ya do about that? I really dont think gadafhi should of been killed like that, I guess I'm "soft hearted" when I see people go through that type of humiliation / death, even though they got what was coming to them. but then again none of my family was hurt by his actions he did while leader. the libyan people on the other hand were

I'm afraid if Osama had been left alive (as much as I hate the idea of state executions) it would have been bad move...

[SymphonicX]

I'm afraid if Osama had been left alive (as much as I hate the idea of state executions) it would have been bad move...

the rumour is that Osama has been dead for years and years - personally I think people a bit mad to believe he was killed in this way, buried completely in secret, and everyone who was involved in the op on the ground dead from a missle attack on their chopper. Sorry, too fishy. Way too fishy.

I definitely agree that a trial was necessary for ALL these people. There are so many victims out there with questions that will now NEVER be answered. Those poor Lockerbie families are never going to have real closure now.

[shootemindehead]

Perhaps Osama was executed because there are elements that don't want certain questions answered, or uncomfortable questions raised in the first place.

[Neil]

the rumour is that Osama has been dead for years and years - personally I think people a bit mad to believe he was killed in this way, buried completely in secret, and everyone who was involved in the op on the ground dead from a missle attack on their chopper. Sorry, too fishy. Way too fishy.

I definitely agree that a trial was necessary for ALL these people. There are so many victims out there with questions that will now NEVER be answered. Those poor Lockerbie families are never going to have real closure now.

But while being held, could you not envisage countless attacks being carried out to release him, and countless innocent people taken hostage to 'exchange' for him?