TWD 2x03 "Save The Last One" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Have at it folks. :)

[bassman]

Welp.....Shane's a douche again.:eek:

[Ragnarr]

HOLY CRAP! So Shane does the math and concludes that saving Carl outweighs Otis' life. HOLY CRAP!

[Vulture Lives]

Now that's more like it!

I had a lot of negative things to say about the season premiere. I didn't even bother to comment on last week's episode, because, once again, I wasn't happy. However, this week's episode turned things around for me. I can honestly say that it was a good episode. I enjoyed the somewhat lighthearted conversation between Daryl and Andrea (and that hanging zombie was badass!). I liked the scenes between Glenn and Maggie. Most significantly, the development with Shane was extremely well done. I loved how the end of the episode blended into the beginning of the episode.

If I had to nitpick, I would say that Rick is currently on the uninteresting side. I'm sure that it'll change in future episodes, but I find myself more interested in what's going on with the other characters at this point.

[Moon Knight]

This episode is classic Walking Dead.

It had it all. However, the real question is, did Shane make his ultimate decision with Carl's best interest in mind? Or did he just do it to get good with Lori? After all, she did ask him to stay, right?

[living dude]

they were walking just as fast as the walkers. if they had time to wrassle for three minutes, they had time to keep walking

so far this whole season has been pissing me off. Lori, Shane, and Andrea's over acting makes me want to puke

[rongravy]

Note to self: Don't ever be a fat guy with a leg injury being chased by the living dead next to a guy named Shane.

[Ragnarr]

I think Shane & Otis should have had a plan for getting both in AND out of the FEMA trailer to begin with. Having failed to do that, they could have had Otis just remain in the trailer with the meds while Shane led the pack of Zeds away. The coast now clear, Otis then heads back for the truck to drive it to anywhere they might have prearranged to meet. Shane gets back in the truck. Mission accomplished.

I think Shane just did the math that Carl's life was more important to him than Otis'. It's that simple.

[Mr. Clean]

oh......my....

That's all I have to say. :stunned:

[Vulture Lives]

they were walking just as fast as the walkers. if they had time to wrassle for three minutes, they had time to keep walking

You make a good point... but I'm willing to overlook it, simply because I liked the development so much.


so far this whole season has been pissing me off. Lori, Shane, and Andrea's over acting makes me want to puke

Lori is a little much at times. I've also started to notice that Andrew Lincoln's performance as Rick is on the mannered side. He has these certain head moves, and a twitchy way about him.

[ProfessorChaos]

definitely my favorite episode this season so far. a decent amount of action/tension, they finally got around to getting carl's surgery underway, and i found it much easier to feel connected to the character in this episode, perhaps it was the writing ....and witnessing shane's cheese slide off his cracker was intriguing, too. i was shocked that otis came and went so fast....he was around for a good bit longer in the comics.

i am getting a bit irritated by this finding sophia shit. she surely must've been picked up by someone by now, i'm guessing perhaps some certain characters from the comics who've not shown up yet may be introduced and worked into the series as sophia's saviors....cuz surely a young girl like that would be up shit creek without a paddle lost in the woods for days (three or so, by my estimate) with no food, water, weapons, etc.

[jded]

Shane is fucked up! If only Rick knew how much so. You don't do what Shane did. I don't like or care for Shane very much anymore.
Tell me, how did they get out of the second episode situation and into the school? Looked like they were caught in a tight spot with no way out, guess that's what they wanted us to believe, that they were crammed into an entry way and unable to escape.

Oh and please could someone tell me the important information given to Lori by Rick during the conversation about the special church and the deer, I happened to hear that much but was interupted during this scene and couldn't fully grasp it.
It started to become clear what Jenner may have said to Rick when Shane mentioned in episode two that the church was wrong because it was lacking a cross at the top.
But was there also something to do with the deer? Because I swear I sort of thought Rick said something to Lori about someone talking about deer, again like I said I was interupted.


If I had to nitpick, I would say that Rick is currently on the uninteresting side.

Uh yeah I'd be a bit dazed and out to lunch too if I'd of given blood three times in one night, and my son had been shot.


This episode is classic Walking Dead.

It had it all. However, the real question is, did Shane make his ultimate decision with Carl's best interest in mind? Or did he just do it to get good with Lori? After all, she did ask him to stay, right?

No it was very plain to see. Shane weighed the odds of his bad leg, and knew a big boy like Otis would satisfy the walkers for a moment to allow him to get away. I say Shane was purely thinking of himself, and yes Carl, but selfishness first and foremost.

[Wyldwraith]

This week was interesting,
Been a while since I've had a "whoa moment" with TWD, and the scene where Shane just cold-bloodedly hobbles Otis to save his own ass (and by extension Carl, but I will contend he was thinking of himself first and foremost there.) Not that I blame Shane this time. My entry/exit plan would do its best to nix the potential of ending up trying to escape dozens of Walkers to reach a vehicle parked WAY TOO FAR AWAY, but assuming that things went tits up and I ended up in that situation...Yea, I could definitely see myself capping someone I just met to save my own ass and keep my group from getting any MORE emotionally dysfunctional.

The Daryl/Adrea convo in the woods was fairly interesting (btw, agreed with Daryl that was a waste of a friggin X-bow bolt. Even if the rope eventually rotted through Hangman Zombie wouldn't be anymore mobile than the torso zombie Rick capped before leavin his home town.), but the whole "Oh I was wrong, here's your gun Andrea. ::insert guilt trip::" then "So, you forgive me right?" thing from Dale is interesting to watch even as its yanking me out of the "realism" when he makes such clueless comments.

That scene made me think of something else. Ever notice that even if someone escapes being bitten by the absolute slenderest of margins that they're basically "over it" within 2 days of series-time? I mean I get them not getting all bent by events like the herd wandering close by...but it just seems that when Andrea or one of the others (with the exception of Daryl and the other couple Alpha Males) has to neutralize a zombie in desperate could-go-either-way hand-to-hand combat of a protracted nature (Andrea with the screwdriver in the RV bathroom being a great example)...that they get over such incidents in a hurry. No, I'm not expecting recurring crying jags and nervous breakdowns, but a perceivable emotional effect that lasts longer than 5 minutes post-zombie-close-call would be cool.

Don't get me wrong. A lot of the actors do a great job of conveying their feelings about the OVERALL situation/life they're all being forced to lead. It just seems kinda weird to me that someone can end up flat on their back frantically kicking outta-their-head desperate to keep the Walker thats trying to fall on and take a bite outta them one day, and be no more disturbed than usual the next day. It's like they've all become numb or had their capacities to retain the feelings they experience when attacked for longer than a few hours.

If you think about it, that could be a big part of why the group seems to behave as if there are no zombies unless staring at one or more that moment. Just a thought.

Interesting episode. I'll close by agreeing the Sophia thing has been dragging/going on WAY WAY too long at this point. It's splitting up the group and dulling the punch of some other plot elements.

[bassman]

Oh and please could someone tell me the important information given to Lori by Rick during the conversation about the special church and the deer, I happened to hear that much but was interupted during this scene and couldn't fully grasp it.
It started to become clear what Jenner may have said to Rick when Shane mentioned in episode two that the church was wrong because it was lacking a cross at the top.
But was there also something to do with the deer? Because I swear I sort of thought Rick said something to Lori about someone talking about deer, again like I said I was interupted.


Rick tells Lori the story of how the deer stood there and allowed Carl to get so close. He then tells her that this is the reason they shouldn't give up on Carl and why it's important that he stays alive in this world. Carl woke up for a few seconds in the bed, but rather than talk about being shot or any of the nasty things they've been going through, the first thing he mentions is how beautiful the deer was. For seeing the beauty in such a horrible world, this is why Rick believes Carl would be better alive than dead.

As other posts have mentioned, I too am getting a bit tired of the Sophia plotline. I'm hoping Daryl is going to find her in that run-down house we see in the previews for next week's episode. Also, the clip during Talking Dead shows that Dale and Andrea are at Hershel's farm, so hopefully they find the girl and all gather at the Greene's.

[Eyebiter]

Would be interesting if Sofia was hiding nearby and saw what Shane did...

[Thorn]

Loved the show, found the stuff around the school amazing and exactly what I want in a zombie movie. A wave of dead that does not sprint after you using weapons or special super powers, but just lurch forward never tiring and not stopping unless food is made available or an appealing enough distraction presents itself. Just brilliant, and the human side of the story was really well done with the conflict within Lori, and her exchanges with Rick.. also the twist... might give some around here pause on opinions of certain characters...

Just brilliant, and one of my favorite episodes to date if not my favorite.

[AcesandEights]

Now that's more like it!

I had a lot of negative things to say about the season premiere. I didn't even bother to comment on last week's episode, because, once again, I wasn't happy. However, this week's episode turned things around for me. I can honestly say that it was a good episode. I enjoyed the somewhat lighthearted conversation between Daryl and Andrea (and that hanging zombie was badass!). I liked the scenes between Glenn and Maggie. Most significantly, the development with Shane was extremely well done. I loved how the end of the episode blended into the beginning of the episode.


I agree, a few little nitpicks, but a great overall episode. I felt it had a fantastic mix of dialogue, action, suspense and even a full-on feeding with a bit of gore.


This episode is classic Walking Dead. It had it all.
Exactly!


However, the real question is, did Shane make his ultimate decision with Carl's best interest in mind? Or did he just do it to get good with Lori? After all, she did ask him to stay, right?
Regardless of how much Carl’s welfare weighed in Shane’s decision is debatable, and Shane may not even be able to say for certain, but I think it’s safe to say it was ultimately a selfish and scumbag move (though arguably an understandable act, for some). His downspiral and psychological unraveling has well and truly begun, I'm hoping it's a fun, but not overly rushed ride.


i am getting a bit irritated by this finding sophia shit. she surely must've been picked up by someone by now, i'm guessing perhaps some certain characters from the comics who've not shown up yet may be introduced and worked into the series as sophia's saviors....
Yeah, I was wondering if they’d do a big reveal when they found her, but I think you’re more likely correct that she will be tagged alongside one or more new characters and built into a situation from the comics. The big reveal I thought the group finding her might be linked to seems a bit too far away in the storyline.


Rick tells Lori the story of how the deer stood there and allowed Carl to get so close. He then tells her that this is the reason they shouldn't give up on Carl and why it's important that he stays alive in this world. Carl woke up for a few seconds in the bed, but rather than talk about being shot or any of the nasty things they've been going through, the first thing he mentions is how beautiful the deer was. For seeing the beauty in such a horrible world, this is why Rick believes Carl would be better alive than dead.
It came across a little cheesy, I thought, but I can identify that this is a Father desperately looking for any hope to hold onto for himself and, more importantly, his family.

Actually, it was really nice to see things weighing heavily on everyone this episode (something I've been looking for) and I was very pleased with the way they mixed everything together. Very enjoyable.

Also, think Herschel's power runs off a generator? Was it mentioned and I missed it?



Would be interesting if Sofia was hiding nearby and saw what Shane did...
Ha! Yeah, it would, but I'm not betting on it. It'd also be too neat and convenient for the story/drama angle if that happened.

[Thorn]

You make a good point... but I'm willing to overlook it, simply because I liked the development so much.



Lori is a little much at times. I've also started to notice that Andrew Lincoln's performance as Rick is on the mannered side. He has these certain head moves, and a twitchy way about him.

I disagree, the living get tired, you can keep going but eventually you pass out, cramp up, and stop moving. The dead just keep coming. Shane didn't wait to the last minute to make his move, when it might have been too late. He made a cold and calculated decision. Walking wounded a few paces in front of the walking dead is just meals on wheels waiting to be served.

[mpokera]

Really enjoyed the episode, lots of zed action and tense moments. Still really hate the way Shane and Otis didnt have a plan for exiting the trailer but obv the writers wanted them to get trapped in the school for some really excellent scenes there. Agree with the poster earlier who mentioned you could see Shane was really losing it even just after he got out of the gym before Otis saved his ass. I really loved the scene of the two trying to run slowly away from the implacable wave of zombies. I have a scene very like that in a book I am writing, the hero with an injured leg reduced to shambling away from zombies, his once large speed advantage gone. As for crippling Otis, it def would have crossed my mind but I dont think I could have done it, have too much hero complex in me, certainly not at the point they were at with still a decent lead. But I really love the way the writers have treated Shane since they rescued him from his early exit as in the comics. I think he is really trying to do the right thing but he keeps being put in no win situations and it just spirals worse and worse.

We saw in the first season that he didnt want to abandon Rick in the Hospital but he finally did, surely convincing himself that he was dead already even if he didnt totally believe it. Afterwards he surely thought that he had to have died shortly after even if he wasnt totally dead yet. Telling himself he was making it up to his friend by taking care of Lori and Carl. Then Rick miracuously shows up and he is cast into limbo. The swirl of conflicted feelings from that would be likely to drive him insane even without the present circumstances.

I can see him really beginning to convince himself that he would be a better protector/provider for Lori and Carl, especially after this episode. He will feel that not only did he nearly die for them but that he was "forced" to do what he did to Otis for them, see how that makes it their fault? Something he didnt want to do but had to for Carl's sake? I can imagine him telling himself that. And when you get right down to it, he will say to himself what has Rick really done for them? He slept through most of it, through the horrible ordeal Shane carried them through, and then he shows up and almost gets Carl killed? Cleverly forgetting that he himself was right there when Carl got shot too, of course he can tell himself if Rick didnt lose Sofia none of that happens.....

Anyway, I just love how they are developing the character and letting us see the cracks in his psyche appear, the center failing to hold. I think it could make his eventual snapping and actually trying to kill Rick more believable than in the comic if they still choose to go that route.

[Legion2213]

Wow. What an episode. I enjoyed the first season, but I am finding this more betterer! (all shows have flaws, and seeing as this is the only zombie series in existance I'm prepared to cut it some slack).

As for our heroes, it seems to me that everybody is broken and damaged. Shane is just so messed up it's unbelievable. I liked Daryls tale of getting lost as well, he really is a top character.

-- -------- Post added at 04:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------


Note to self: Don't ever be a fat guy with a leg injury being chased by the living dead next to a guy named Shane.

This. :D

-- -------- Post added at 04:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------


This episode is classic Walking Dead.

It had it all. However, the real question is, did Shane make his ultimate decision with Carl's best interest in mind? Or did he just do it to get good with Lori? After all, she did ask him to stay, right?

Don't see why it can't both...plus self preservation (sure we've thought about it the morality of these situations being zombie fans, and wondered if we'd sacrifice another to save our own ass in similar circumstances).

[Wyldwraith]

I'm just gonna say it,
I don't take the idea of this lightly, and it's not just some off-the-cuff comment on a zombie fan site. In the situation that Shane found himself in (Ie: Speed-reducing leg injury, building fatigue from being relentlessly chased while heavily burdened alongside another guy who's in even worse shape than him, and a pack of flesh-hungry beasts gaining on him) with another life depending on Shane to make it back with the supplies, I could see myself making the same decision Shane did.

That doesn't make what Shane did right, but it's understandable. Shane and the others have seen what Walkers do to their victims, so the fear of being torn apart and eaten alive isn't some imagined hypothetical for them. I don't think that fear can be overstated. Everything about the situation Shane found himself in drove that fear home. Under the circumstances, and given that Otis is a stranger he had no emotional investment in, the litany of justification no doubt ran through Shane's head until he simply acted.

It's the sort of moral conflict I find interesting in any case. Yes, there are people who might well choose differently, but I think most of us would surprise ourselves with just how far we'd be willing to go to avoid ending up food for beasts or monsters.

Anyways, I liked the way they showed Shane back at the farm and giving his rough, trailing-off account before flashing back to the chase scene to reveal what really happened. Haven't been thrilled by some of the flashbacks they've done, but this one rocked.

Incidentally, the bit from the preview of the next episode...Herschel saying "We don't take in strangers. Once you and your group have rested up you need to move on" is interesting, but has already told us they're either gonna end the season with the group at/just leaving the farm, or they'll be on the road to Who-Knows-Where just as the season ends. Put it another way: 2 episodes was just long enough to do the leaving the CDC as it exploded and back on the road thing. That was very cut and dried. Ie: Flee to your vehicles and go or get blown up and/or eaten. Herschel's farm plus the group's current situation (Carl recovering from a gunshot, T-Dog sick, Rick depleted badly enough it's gonna be upwards of a week and change before he can exert himself without risking fainting/worse medical consequences, Sophia still missing etc etc.) has a lot more reasons why their departure won't be nearly as abrupt as the end of last season.

Sure, Herschel's gonna tell em next episode they gotta hit the road ASAP, but even if they left the actual farm at the end of the next episode, and even if they squeezed the plot tight enough to allow Sophia to suddenly be found by those back at the RV while the others are pulling up stakes at the farm, that would leave ONE episode where they were "free" to continue on to Fort Benning or wherever else they might end up. Personally, I don't even think they'll be physically/situationally clear of 2/3 the group being at Herschel's and 1/3 at the RV on the highway before the season ends. Even if I'm way off the mark and they bug out five minutes into the next episode, that would still leave them with a little less than 2 episodes. If they REALLY hurried things along, that just MIGHT be enough time for our intrepid survivors to travel far enough to (for example) climb up on top of the RV and use binoculars to catch sight of the major location for next season in the distance, and just as the season ends.

Thoughts?

[sandrock74]

Also, think Herschel's power runs off a generator? Was it mentioned and I missed it?


A lot of rural homes, like Hershel's place, tend to be run off of propane around these parts.

[AcesandEights]

A lot of rural homes, like Hershel's place, tend to be run off of propane around these parts.

Ah, hadn't occurred to me! Thank you, I was sure my question would be missed amidst all the quotes I threw into my congested post.

[Legion2213]

I'm just gonna say it,
I don't take the idea of this lightly, and it's not just some off-the-cuff comment on a zombie fan site. In the situation that Shane found himself in (Ie: Speed-reducing leg injury, building fatigue from being relentlessly chased while heavily burdened alongside another guy who's in even worse shape than him, and a pack of flesh-hungry beasts gaining on him) with another life depending on Shane to make it back with the supplies, I could see myself making the same decision Shane did.

That doesn't make what Shane did right, but it's understandable. Shane and the others have seen what Walkers do to their victims, so the fear of being torn apart and eaten alive isn't some imagined hypothetical for them. I don't think that fear can be overstated. Everything about the situation Shane found himself in drove that fear home. Under the circumstances, and given that Otis is a stranger he had no emotional investment in, the litany of justification no doubt ran through Shane's head until he simply acted.

It's the sort of moral conflict I find interesting in any case. Yes, there are people who might well choose differently, but I think most of us would surprise ourselves with just how far we'd be willing to go to avoid ending up food for beasts or monsters.


Yep, I can see normally decent, honest people doing something like that, how you'd cope with any guilt after the fact is another conversation for another day I suppose. But I honestly think that once your own survival is hanging in the balance that even the most moral folks will choose to live at the cost of others.

Like you, I'm not defending Shane, I am however putting myself in his shoes and asking myself if it is possible that I could do such a terrible thing...I can't put my hand on my heart and say I wouldn't.

Oh, and I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Shane took Ricks Python off Otis didn't he? Some 'splainin' is going to be needed to justify it being back at the farm if it is discovered.

[Vulture Lives]

Uh yeah I'd be a bit dazed and out to lunch too if I'd of given blood three times in one night, and my son had been shot.

I'm not saying that Rick shouldn't be "dazed and confused." I'm saying that he's been a dull character since this season began. Feel free to disagree.

[kidgloves]

Im gonna have to watch that again to get my head around what i've just seen.
You son of a bitch Shane. You've let me down. You could have shot Otis in the head but winging him is horrific.

[AcesandEights]

Im gonna have to watch that again to get my head around what i've just seen.
You son of a bitch Shane. You've let me down. You could have shot Otis in the head but winging him is horrific.
Best thing about that part was I was able to realize how innocent my wife truly is, as I had to explain Shane's intentions while the two were still wrestling on the ground. She's so sweet.


The 1st rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the slowest investigator.

The 2nd rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the new slowest investigator.

[Legion2213]

Im gonna have to watch that again to get my head around what i've just seen.
You son of a bitch Shane. You've let me down. You could have shot Otis in the head but winging him is horrific.

Would they pay as much attention to a dead body? Horrible as it is, once the first zack rips into him and he starts screaming, the dinner bell has just been sounded.

-- -------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------


I'm not saying that Rick shouldn't be "dazed and confused." I'm saying that he's been a dull character since this season began. Feel free to disagree.

Shane and Daryl are far more interesting...I can't stand Ricks wife either, she just angers me.

[AcesandEights]

Shane and Daryl are far more interesting...I can't stand Ricks wife either, she just angers me.

I thought Lori was damned annoying in the comic too, though sometimes she was right, in my opinion.

[kidgloves]

Best thing about that part was I was able to realize how innocent my wife truly is, as I had to explain Shane's intentions while the two were still wrestling on the ground. She's so sweet.


The 1st rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the slowest investigator.

The 2nd rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the new slowest investigator.

This just makes it worse. Watch this preview scene from next week.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eOCmzm4iHmg

[Thorn]

Yep, I can see normally decent, honest people doing something like that, how you'd cope with any guilt after the fact is another conversation for another day I suppose. But I honestly think that once your own survival is hanging in the balance that even the most moral folks will choose to live at the cost of others.

Like you, I'm not defending Shane, I am however putting myself in his shoes and asking myself if it is possible that I could do such a terrible thing...I can't put my hand on my heart and say I wouldn't.

Oh, and I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Shane took Ricks Python off Otis didn't he? Some 'splainin' is going to be needed to justify it being back at the farm if it is discovered.

I don't know, how do you explain people diving on grenades to save others? People who have a job like firemen who rush into a fire while everyone else is rushing out? People amaze me all the time with their courage. I can understand people giving their lives to save loved ones is different, or saving brothers in arms... but people give their lives for strangers all the time.

Heroes do what the common man can not or is not willing to do.

I would love to say I would give my life to save a brother in arms, but how can you? I am not in that situation I will never truly know. Shane COULD have handed Otis the bags and run the zombies off, like Otis did for him (or he could have tried). He could have given his life to save Otis by offering himself up as a meal. He did not.

He took another man's life to save his own.

Was it the best option? Maybe Shane is more fit, and likely had the best chance to get to the truck... but we know one thing for sure. It was the best option for Shane.

[Ragnarr]

Would be interesting if Sofia was hiding nearby and saw what Shane did...

Dude, I wish you were one of the writers for TWD. Sofia actually seeing what Shane did to Otis, or just the thought in Shane's head of that possibility would be an awesome plot development. Cudos!

[Thorn]

Dude, I wish you were one of the writers for TWD. Sofia actually seeing what Shane did to Otis, or just the thought in Shane's head of that possibility would be an awesome plot development. Cudos!


Agreed! That and the mention of the gun and having to explain it, watching that clip I can see that coming up, he said Otis told him he was going to cover him and that begs the question... "with what"? They were down to Pistols, Shane just said so. So if they were down to pistols, what was Otis covering him with if Shane has the gun. This is where you guys on this site are brilliant in my mind and I enjoy posting here (for years) people know good stories, write good stories, and see things others might not.

Now Shane could just claim it was a sacrifice he slipped the gun in his bag or some such thing but when confronted, he would have to be really slick to bust that lie out on the spot with no sign that he is lying.

[Ragnarr]

I don't know, how do you explain people diving on grenades to save others? People who have a job like firemen who rush into a fire while everyone else is rushing out? People amaze me all the time with their courage. I can understand people giving their lives to save loved ones is different, or saving brothers in arms... but people give their lives for strangers all the time.

Heroes do what the common man can not or is not willing to do.

I would love to say I would give my life to save a brother in arms, but how can you? I am not in that situation I will never truly know.

Back in 1985, I was in that type of situation. There was a car accident right in front of the place I was working. The driver of one of the vehicles (a jeep) fell out of the driver's side onto his back and the jeep rolled backwards pinning his right arm. Meanwhile, gasoline was spilling out of his jeep and he was right in the middle of the pool of it screaming. I ran up to the edge of the spill also noticing that there was smoke coming from the engine of the jeep. I hesitated for a moment thinking I needed to free this guy but if I did, the guy, his jeep and myself might all burn in a flash. I only hesitated a second or two, then thought, "aw fuck it... I'm not going to see someone burn to death right in front of me."
I began trying to roll the jeep off the guy's arm but wasn't quite strong enough. Then some old dude (must have been like 70 years old) who was hobbling slowly up the street with his cane, suddenly dropped his cane, came running like a 30 year old to where I was and helped me push the jeep off the guy's arm. The jeep never did catch fire and the guy turned out to be okay, but it was that weird "I might die if I try to save this guy but fuck it anyway" feeling that I'll never forget.

[Thorn]

Back in 1985, I was in that type of situation. There was a car accident right in front of the place I was working. The driver of one of the vehicles (a jeep) fell out of the driver's side onto his back and the jeep rolled backwards pinning his right arm. Meanwhile, gasoline was spilling out of his jeep and he was right in the middle of the pool of it screaming. I ran up to the edge of the spill also noticing that there was smoke coming from the engine of the jeep. I hesitated for a moment thinking I needed to free this guy but if I did, the guy, his jeep and myself might all burn in a flash. I only hesitated a second or two, then thought, "aw fuck it... I'm not going to see someone burn to death right in front of me."
I began trying to roll the jeep off the guy's arm but wasn't quite strong enough. Then some old dude (must have been like 70 years old) who was hobbling slowly up the street with his cane, suddenly dropped his cane and came running like a 30 year old to help me push the jeep off the guy's arm. The jeep never did catch fire and the guy turned out to be okay, but it was that weird "I might die if I try to save this guy but fuck it anyway" feeling that I'll never forget.


Great story, and exactly how I feel in those situations, awesome that you took a chance to do the right thing.

I always think that in a dead situation if my family (my daughter) was in danger I would never risk her life for anyone else, but I like to think I would risk mine to do right... it was how I was raised , I imagine that is a hard thing to change. Or at least accept "The new world, new rules... mean if you are true to yourself, and who you are then you could die" the car situation everyday all day.

Hard.

[acealive1]

now why the FUCK did i get the sneaking suspicion when the episode started in the bathroom that shane either left otis or killed him? geez.......he's literally crazy now

[Ragnarr]

I think each person has both a hero and an idiot living inside them at the same time, and it's usually one or the other that kills us at some point. :)

To go back on topic, Shane made a cold but logical decision. I think we can all agree that it wasn't the only decision possible, but then again, we ARE talking about Shane here.

[acealive1]

watching next week's preview, dale's look at the funeral seems to make you think he listens alot more than he says and that shane's story doesnt make sense the first two times he told it.


they could have both had bad leg injuries and gotten out of there.......all they had to do was look inside one of the army vehicles for a single grenade which woulda bought them enough time to escape

[bassman]

To go back on topic, Shane made a cold but logical decision. I think we can all agree that it wasn't the only decision possible, but then again, we ARE talking about Shane here.

Logical is too strong of a word, imo. While I can kinda see WHY Shane shot Otis in the grand scheme of things, there's no excuse for HOW he did it. Leaving Otis to suffer the pain of being eaten alive bit-by-bit is just a soulless move. At least put a round in the man's head so he goes out with a quick flash of light rather than a long, painful ordeal. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemies and Otis was a tubby ol' sweetheart.

[kidgloves]

You could make the argument that by killing Otis Shane saved Carl and himself but when your in that amount of immediate danger i find it hard to believe that was his motive. He was trying to save his own ass. Its like Andrea trying to put the gun back together. She wasn't thinking about the noise that gunfire would make. She needed a weapon in a very short time and, with nothing else available, the gun was her only option.

[Mr. Clean]

I don't think I could ever do what Shane did to Otis. I understand that Otis volunteered to help the child because he was the one who shot the kid but accidents happen. I could have lived with not helping with the equipment mission if I had shot the child accidently. If Otis had not volunteered, he would still be alive. Also, The equipment mission was fubar to begin with...They should have had more people and some sort of diversion. No spare of the moment type setup.

I'm still struggling with my thoughts on Shane....It's such an awful thing to do.

[Ragnarr]

Logical is too strong of a word, imo. While I can kinda see WHY Shane shot Otis in the grand scheme of things, there's no excuse for HOW he did it. Leaving Otis to suffer the pain of being eaten alive bit-by-bit is just a soulless move. At least put a round in the man's head so he goes out with a quick flash of light rather than a long, painful ordeal. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemies and Otis was a tubby ol' sweetheart.

Maybe (just guessing) Shane decided that Otis needed to be thrashing about in order for his "escape plan" to work.

-- -------- Post added at 07:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------


watching next week's preview, dale's look at the funeral seems to make you think he listens alot more than he says and that shane's story doesnt make sense the first two times he told it.


they could have both had bad leg injuries and gotten out of there.......all they had to do was look inside one of the army vehicles for a single grenade which woulda bought them enough time to escape

Good point Ace. Dale remembers seeing Shane aim his gun at Rick as if about to pull the trigger (in season 1). If so, Dale may already be suspicious of Shane's intent, and now if the Otis story is full of inconsistancies, I can see Dale figuring out the math that Shane is a douche.

[blind2d]

I just saw this episode today and wow... I used to hate Shane, now I LOATHE him. Seriously, that's not what you do! I don't think even Rhodes would pull that shit... Eh, maybe though. Anyway yeah... I don't like him. Great episode though. More Glenn is always good.

[Moon Knight]

Would Rick shoot Otis to save Carl if he was in Shane's shoes? Hard decisions are to be made now and we already know that Shane is strong enough to make them, no matter how terrible the actions may be. That's just the world they live in now.

Whether he did it for Carl or his own ass doesn't really matter. Otis was sacrificed and it was fucked up.

[Ragnarr]

Would Rick shoot Otis to save Carl if he was in Shane's shoes? Hard decisions are to be made now and we already know that Shane is strong enough to make them, no matter how terrible the actions may be. That's just the world they live in now.

Whether he did it for Carl or his own ass doesn't really matter. Otis was sacrificed and it was fucked up.

Agreed. Although my impression of Rick is that he'd never "pull a Shane" in order to save anyone (including his son). He seems to be a man of deep moral character.

[Thorn]

I just re-watched it again and it is interesting to note that Shane DID try to give Otis the gear and urged him to leave him behind at one point. He was willing to give his own life it seemed to save Carl's life. This made me stop and think...

Did he understand that one of them had to die for the mission to save Carl to succeed? Since Otis wouldn't make the hard decision he had to? OR do you think immanent danger and certain death in one of the most horrific ways imaginable, coupled with the risk of failing to save Carl finally caused him to snap?

Does this scene change your opinion of him in any way? He TRIED to save Carl, and was willing to die to make that happen... just curious because that scene escaped my mind since I was so outraged by what he did to Otis.

Rick Grimes NOW would never do anything like killing a man to save his own life to save his son, he would likely give his life to save the man who could in turn save his son. As time goes on, and life in a world filled with walkers takes it's toll on him emotionally and mentally... well perhaps he might change. But I like to think he will always be a decent man who never allows the horrors of the world around him to change who he is. That is more challenging than anything else. Keeping your door locked when kids are being eaten outside is easy, risking your neck to save them... that takes something special.

[JDFP]

Okay, I've missed something in this episode (it may have been when I got up to get a beer, I don't know) and I'm trying to decide what it was I missed:

There's a scene where Dale is talking to Carol and says: "You stay here, I'm going up the road a bit for just a minute" or something like that and you see him walk up the road and he hears some type of strange noise while he's looking around. The next thing you know he's back at the RV with Carol again.

Wait, what did I miss? Did they show what Dale heard/saw there or did they just show him hearing/seeing something and then all the sudden he's back at the RV again with no explanation? Did I miss something other than him hearing some strange noise and going to investigate and then being at the RV again?

j.p.

[Thorn]

Okay, I've missed something in this episode (it may have been when I got up to get a beer, I don't know) and I'm trying to decide what it was I missed:

There's a scene where Dale is talking to Carol and says: "You stay here, I'm going up the road a bit for just a minute" or something like that and you see him walk up the road and he hears some type of strange noise while he's looking around. The next thing you know he's back at the RV with Carol again.

Wait, what did I miss? Did they show what Dale heard/saw there or did they just show him hearing/seeing something and then all the sudden he's back at the RV again with no explanation? Did I miss something other than him hearing some strange noise and going to investigate and then being at the RV again?

j.p.

This as far as I recall there was no major discovery or incident.

[AcesandEights]

Does this scene change your opinion of him in any way?.




It reaffirms that Shane is a man for making "hard decisions", (probably will use that defense at some point, himself), unfortunately most of his hard decisions are bad, or at least highly questionable and done in a unilateral, close-minded fashion.

It's good to see a lot of people making questionable choices, as there'd be a lot of mistakes made and chances for second guessing in these crazy life or death...or undeath...circumstances the protags find themselves in.

[Thorn]

It reaffirms that Shane is a man for making "hard decisions", (probably will use that defense at some point, himself), unfortunately most of his hard decisions are bad, or at least highly questionable and done in a unilateral, close-minded fashion.

It's good to see a lot of people making questionable choices, as there'd be a lot of mistakes made and chances for second guessing in these crazy life or death...or undeath...circumstances the protags find themselves in.

great post and well said IMO.

[Wrong Number]

I'm wondering if there is enough of Otis left to be mobile. Not likely, but Shane would have a tough time explaining the bullet wound in his leg.

[shootemindehead]

Best thing about that part was I was able to realize how innocent my wife truly is, as I had to explain Shane's intentions while the two were still wrestling on the ground. She's so sweet.


The 1st rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the slowest investigator.

The 2nd rule of Call of Cthulhu is you only have to be faster than the new slowest investigator.

A role player eh?

I used to love 'Call of Cthulhu'...or as I called it; 'Find the monster and run away from it'.

-- -------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 PM ----------

I actually thought this episode was a little boring, TBH, with a lot of yap about nothing. However, that ending...

Both my wife and me went "Oh shit!" at exactly the same time.

[Wyldwraith]

Yes, people of a selfless bent put themselves in danger daily all around the world,
Nothing can take away from the heroism of people like the New York City firefighters who risked and, sadly in the large majority of cases, gave their lives either saving or trying to save others on 9/11/01. Or the heroism of regular people paddling around on pieces of driftwood to get to children, elderly individuals, and anyone else unable to effect self-rescue in torrential floodwaters filled with all sorts of carrion and raw sewage when the government dropped the ball back during Hurricane Katrina. Not to mention the billions of individuals who have, throughout history, put themselves in harms way to defend the people of their Clan/Tribe/Village/City-State/Nation...and the brave, compassionate and dedicated minority who stayed at the risk of infection and slow death to do whatever they could to ease the suffering of those dying in the many, many epidemics long before modern medicine.

Such individuals are rightly recognized as heroes, and again, nothing could be said to take away from such heroism. The potential for true self-sacrifice is one of the few redeeming characteristics of our species, and one that gives me a small bit of hope that maybe, possibly, if we don't destroy ourselves first, humanity might eventually grow as a species beyond the callous barbarism and glorification of self-interest that still holds us back.

THAT SAID, there IS a difference between the situations I just mentioned and what TWD survivors have to contend with. It's one thing to RISK your life for others and lose that life as a result of accepting that RISK, and entirely another thing to knowingly, with 100% certainty GIVE your life to save another. Yes, many people of the sort I just described would do that as well if called upon in need, but it's an important distinction to make. Particularly since the more awful a death we're talking about someone giving up their life to in an act of self-sacrifice, the higher the degree of resolve and the greater the capacity for self-sacrifice that is (IMO) required.

On the flip-side of heroism is self-interest. A lot of people just couldn't bring themselves to risk or give their life to save another. Not heroic, but neither is it abnormal given how powerful the self-preservation instinct is. Where self-interest becomes a murky issue, at least for me anyways, is when you're in that moment of (for example) Kill-Another-to-Live Vs. Don't-and-Die. When you add feelings of responsibility for, and commitments to others you care for...responsibility and commitments that will go unfulfilled and may well result in the death(s) of those you care for in ADDITION to you losing your own life....especially if you have some sort of foreknowledge (such as Shane did, with the medical supplies required to save Carl situation) of your death CERTAINLY and DIRECTLY being the cause of the death of 1 or more individuals you care for....it can get difficult to separate self-interest from self-sacrifice at times, don't you all think?

Again, not even implying what Shane did was right. Yet the more I think about that situation and his response to it, the more difficulty I'm having with trying to frame what he did to Otis as some sort of cold-blooded villainy. Now LYING ABOUT IT REPEATEDLY? That's another immoral rotten kettle of fish altogether. Again understandable, but definitely in the Wrong category.

As for Shane having Rick's Colt...they were going to a combined military/F.E.M.A aid station. Rick himself chanced upon a fully-loaded 9mm on a rapidly-terminated Walker in a similar setting. Dale could well become even more suspicious of him if Shane adds another layer to his lie(s) to explain having Rick's pistol, but I doubt that since Shane managed to B.S them all about the really big lie successfully, that he would fail to B.S them about a smaller related lie when he could cook up a plausible explanation easily on-the-fly. Also, can't underestimate his bonus points with the group's nominal leader and said leader's wife. The person or people most likely to smell a rat are also the least likely to rock the boat out of concern for Rick and Lori's reactions to the smearing of "their hero".

Anyways, just some of my thoughts on the subject. I'll close by saying this: If I WAS going to do what Shane did, I'd have hobbled Otis rather than headshot him myself. Yes, its a far more horrific death, but (from the shooter's perspective) wouldn't it be even more horrific if because the person they just murdered isn't moving and they still are, the main mob of Walkers ignores their "distraction"? In that case they would have murdered a man for nothing. If you're going to wander over into Dark Side territory, best be sure the trip was worth it. Meaning Otis has gotta thrash, scream and die horribly to guarantee the ploy works.

[Ragnarr]

Wrong Number makes a good point; what if the survivors stumble upon what's left of Otis and what they see doesn't jive with what Shane said. Hmm.

Also tend to agree with Wyld; the zeds seem more attracted to movement than not. Hell, they're even attracted by burning flares apparently. I think Shane decided Otis needed to be thrashing about in order for him (Shane) to escape.

Another factor; Otis borrowed Rick's revolver. Shane mentions when he gets back to the farmhouse that he and Otis "were down to pistols." If Shane has Rick's gun with him, how could Otis be "holding off the zeds" by himself? Hmm.

[Thorn]

Wyld,

I can very easily see your point, and trust me I am not saying I would be the guy who throws his body on a grenade knowing I am going to die to save my fellow marines, or innocent bystanders. I am not sure I would be the fireman walking up those stairs to near certain death to save people out of a sense of duty to my fellow man or the job... or what have you. I just like to think I would.

As for leaving others behind I often think about that. If I give my life now to save a girl I don't know and the zombies are walking around will my 9 year old daughter live without me? Will she be protected and cared for? Zombie food? People food? Or things that are even worse in my mind to imagine? It is possible and I would not be around to save her or stop it or help. So trust me I have thought all that through many times and it would depend on who we were with and what the situation was. In my mind now, so hard to say not being in it... or in the moment.

Shane was not cold blooded and calculating really, throughout the episode he should concern for Otis. For them both escaping. HE only did what he did AFTER he saw no other options, after trying to make Otis be the one to go on ahead and be the hero.

I am conflicted here, I do not like Shane but I can see why he did what he did, in a moment of desperation, with few options before them, none of them good. He made a choice most of us could not make. One Otis could not make.
It does not make him right, nor excuse him and as said his lying is another whole ball of wax. But after watching it again, I did not see Shane as a cold blooded killer, I see hi mas a man who is fraying. The whole head shaving scene... what do you think that was about?

[JDFP]

This as far as I recall there was no major discovery or incident.

So, why do it? I don't get the point of showing Dale and Carol (other than someone saying: "Hey, we have to insert Dale and Carol into the episode for at least 60 seconds!") and the whole plot point of Dale going walking off for a few minutes hearing some strange noise (and then not showing what the noise was) with Dale intently looking - just to dismiss it 5 minutes later when he's back with no comment on it.

From what I could tell it appeared he was looking at "something" and had a look on his face as if it was something important - but no other discussion or thoughts on it?

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up in the next episode - what if Dale had discovered Sophia dead and didn't want to mention it to Carol with no one else around? There has to be something to it - I'm just surprised no one else has mentioned it at all.

Then again, I was pretty well lit up from Milwaukee's Best, I could just be putting something where there is nothing. It seems awkward he would just take a midnight stroll up the road a little bit to leave Carol there by herself.

j.p.

[Thorn]

I am really curious now.

I am going to re-watch this tonight.

[AcesandEights]

The whole head shaving scene... what do you think that was about?

It's kind of an easy 'give me' for whatever the audience wants it to mean...for example: Shane has shed part of who he was through his action.

Plus shaved heads make people look crazier. First image I thought of:

http://www.thesocialtrust.com/daily/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/full-metal-jacket.jpg


From what I could tell it appeared he was looking at "something" and had a look on his face as if it was something important - but no other discussion or thoughts on it?

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up in the next episode...


I may have to re-watch the show, as well. Good thing I made sure not erase DVR in case a discussion like this came up :)

[Thorn]

I first thought of Sampson... but then I thought of native Americans who would cut off willingly or have cut off their own hair when they were shamed. Generally in film it is used to show character development, progression..

I am not sure but Shane might be progressing into an asshole.

[Ragnarr]

So, why do it? I don't get the point of showing Dale and Carol (other than someone saying: "Hey, we have to insert Dale and Carol into the episode for at least 60 seconds!") and the whole plot point of Dale going walking off for a few minutes hearing some strange noise (and then not showing what the noise was) with Dale intently looking - just to dismiss it 5 minutes later when he's back with no comment on it.

From what I could tell it appeared he was looking at "something" and had a look on his face as if it was something important - but no other discussion or thoughts on it?

I wouldn't be surprised if this comes up in the next episode - what if Dale had discovered Sophia dead and didn't want to mention it to Carol with no one else around? There has to be something to it - I'm just surprised no one else has mentioned it at all.

Then again, I was pretty well lit up from Milwaukee's Best, I could just be putting something where there is nothing. It seems awkward he would just take a midnight stroll up the road a little bit to leave Carol there by herself.

j.p.

Yeah, it seemed weird for Dale to wander only to come back. You don't have a character obviously do something unless it somehow advances the plot. I think we'll see Dale have a weird flashback to exactly what he did or saw soon.

[kidgloves]

The head shaving thing was cause poor ole Otis had pulled a lump of hair out of Shane in desperation

-- -------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------


This as far as I recall there was no major discovery or incident.

I think he went to get Andreas gun which i presume he had hidden from her cause in the next scene he's giving it back to her

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
It's completely unsupported, but yea, I could see Dale concealing the fact he saw (or make it even murkier, THOUGHT he saw a Sophia-shaped Walker which he could tell was a girl-child, but from behind, at a distance, and at night had no way to be sure) a dead/undead Sophia while it was just him and Carol. The only "hole" I see in that is this: If Dale saw a Sophia-Walker, or even a possible-Sophia-Walker, why wouldn't he take Daryl aside and quietly tell him so that come morning, Daryl could track and put down the child-zombie to eliminate the possibility of it wandering into Carol's field of view and definitely cause the loss of her sanity, and possibly even the loss of her life if, in massive denial of reality, Carol ran to embrace "her little girl" and got a chunk taken outta her for her trouble.

Again, I could see Dale keeping whatever-it-was to himself if it was Sophia-related while just him and Carol, but there's that scene near the side door to the RV where he gives Andrea's gun back that would've also provided excellent opportunity to say something to Daryl or Daryl and Andrea both. Would just seem really weird (though considering Dale feels entitled to keep critical info that could easily affect the survival of the group to himself when it suits him/to control the group's actions...) but not beyond the plausible for him to sit on such info until the group was more consolidated. Even with Daryl, Andrea and Dale there, if Carol overheard anything like that about Sophia they'd basically have to hogtie her and take turns watching her, all while also watching out for Walkers. A tall order for 3 people, especially if Daryl headed out to terminate Sophia-the-Walker and left Andrea and Dale to deal with an unbalanced Carol.

Still, is an interesting open question.

[Thorn]

The head shaving thing was cause poor ole Otis had pulled a lump of hair out of Shane in desperation

-- -------- Post added at 08:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:50 PM ----------



I think he went to get Andreas gun which i presume he had hidden from her cause in the next scene he's giving it back to her

This is what I was thinking on my drive home... it impossible he hid it in a car so she wouldn't find it.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/210/thornrofsig6.gif/

[bassman]

The head shaving thing was cause poor ole Otis had pulled a lump of hair out of Shane in desperation

I was scratching my head with that one. You're missing a clump of hair, so you're going to shave your head? That should have made it more obvious, not get rid of the evidence....

[Thorn]

I was scratching my head with that one. You're missing a clump of hair, so you're going to shave your head? That should have made it more obvious, not get rid of the evidence....

Not only that but hair can come out a million ways.. .a zed grabbed it, it was caught on a fence/tree/zipper?/Window. I am more talking about the symbolic need to have him shave his head in cinema though, generally you don't waste time with things like that in an hour long show unless it A) has significant meaning to character development B) Is part of a major plot point.

So either it is good story telling through symbolism, or zombie Otis is going to come shambling home looking for some home cooking shot up, with hair and DNA in and on his hands from Shane making it even harder to explain off. That seems extraneous to me, you just do the gun thing and he deals with it poorly... it is enough to move the plot further IMO.

[DjfunkmasterG]

SHANE.... YOU SON OF A BITCH!!!!!

WOW, all I can say right now... I know I am 4 days late, but I got a new job and been busy tweaking All in the Game.

What a great moment, but at the same time... WTF?

I will say some of the best zombie footage shot for this show, was shot in those scenes.

[Zombie Snack]

Shame on you Shane, acting and now looking insane.

[bassman]

Otis.....

had a generic death coming, so it makes more dramatic sense that they made it important....

[Ragnarr]

Just watched last sunday's episode again (yeah it was that damn good). Noticed in the short for next week's episode a scene where Shane (I think it was Shane) places Rick's pistol down on a map that they're all gathered around looking at. It was a close up of the hand placing the gun on the map so it's likely Shane's hand. If they bothered to show that close up scene, I think that it's an important plot point.

Rick is going to be at least somewhat suspicious about how his gun which he originally lent to Otis somehow got into Shane's possession, especially since in the sneak peek for #204, Shane relays that they "were down to pistols" when Otis sacrificed himself.

Oh this is going to be goooooood!

[Thorn]

934

935

936

[Tricky]

Damn, Shanes an arse! Otis didnt deserve that, its clear the cracks are getting ever wider in Shanes sanity too! Great episode, I'm just getting really sick of the commercials on FX, its like the shows barely been on 2 minutes before the next 5 long minute ad break, its really breaking the immersion for me I'd watch online but I dont like sitting at my desk to watch TV programmes, and I cant hook my PC up to a TV!

[shootemindehead]

Your DVD player or Blu Ray probably has xvid playback ability Tricky. So, get the episode of the web and watch it through a memory stick (if your player has a USB slot) or burn it to a disk.

No ads!

[MinionZombie]

Damn, Shanes an arse! Otis didnt deserve that, its clear the cracks are getting ever wider in Shanes sanity too! Great episode, I'm just getting really sick of the commercials on FX, its like the shows barely been on 2 minutes before the next 5 long minute ad break, its really breaking the immersion for me I'd watch online but I dont like sitting at my desk to watch TV programmes, and I cant hook my PC up to a TV!

Seemingly it's just us two Brits who watch it on FX! All the other Brits download it, the cheeky gits. :p

It seems that on FXUK, we get a solid 15 minutes, then adverts, then 7 or 8 minutes, then adverts, then another 7 or 8 minutes, then the final ad break, then however long is left of the episode (which is about 42 minutes without advert breaks).

...

Anyway - the episode itself - well, I had already guessed that Shane would shoot Otis and use him as bait while he made his escape ... why did I come to this conclusion days before seeing the episode? Because of some random comment by some idiotic prat somewhere on the web (can't remember where now, but certainly not here on HPOTD where everyone is being very good and respectful about spoilers) ... anyway, it was some topic of discussion type thing that went something like this "So what do you guys think of Shane's actions?" ... well considering the context of episode two, with just him and Otis at the school surrounded by zombies and they need to get back, it's pretty fucking obvious that his action was shooting Otis. *sigh* So yeah, that surprise was spoiled by one random comment somewhere out there on the internet that I'd read before I'd even realised I had read it ... but regardless of it being spoiled by some twirp that doesn't think hard enough, the actual twist in the episode was a great one.

It certainly makes Otis a far more important character than he ever was in the comics - heck, 2x02 made him infiinitely more important, but his death makes him all the more important. I think this is going to prove to be a great avenue for plot development, as well as character development for Shane ... I think it was after Shane was killed in the very first trade paperback (as has been mentioned many times by Kirkman, so I can't see that info as being a spoiler to anyone on here) that Rick really started having to tread into unknown territory where terrible decisions (no choice being ideal) had to be made ... so it's interesting that perhaps it's Shane who has to do that first, and then once we inevitably lose Shane it'll be Rick's turn - although you can see the seeds of the sorts of decisions Rick will have to make being sewn.

The look on Dale's face, this apparent shot of Rick's gun - all these sorts of things are going to make for some excellent character conflict - particularly in bringing these two groups together ... so from the get-go, the relationship of the two groups is based on a horrific near-fatal accident, and then betrayal possibly tinged with revenge and/or selfish intent.

The way I took it from the episode, Shane did it from simply practical means - the geeks were going to gain on them eventually, he needed a distraction to slip away, and Otis was that distraction. It's these sort of awful decisions - where people are pushed to brutal extremes - that make the comics so great in my view (I just got myself volumes 7 and 8 of the trade paperbacks ... been meaning to catch up on them a bit for a while). So I think he viewed it in purely brutal practical means - in an almost 'animal kingdom' way, where there is no such thing as personal conscience.

I think it's interesting to note that Shane doesn't "stay" when Lori tells him to. He's clearly ashamed of his actions, and utterly haunted by how far he's allowed himself to go.

Zombie wise - some excellent stuff - I really felt that they were surrounded and fucked from all angles. That added to Shane and Otis' desperation - everywhere they turned, they were being tracked down - and being injured, lugging heavy gear, you're going to get more and more exhausted until you can barely move. The geeks don't get tired, they keep coming at a steady pace and eventually they'll catch you - and that point was coming very soon - so Shane made that astonishing decision. Wow - they really played that moment, huh?

I'd say that Shane shaves his head to try and 'cover up' the bit of hair that's been yanked out (I don't think you could hide that by a comb over :p) - but also I think he does it out of emotional reasons. He clearly sees that he has gone somewhere he never thought he'd go - he's trying to remove the vision of what he used to be - he doesn't want to be reminded of his old self. Since the zombie apocalypse began he's done awful things and seen awful things, and now he's crossed a line that you'd never cross in normal circumstances - hence shaving his head.

One nitpick - I think they need to be a bit stricter on their zombie extras when it comes to speed ... the Hinzman Hobble is sometimes being stretched a tad here and there in the odd shot, but only by some of the zombies, not all of them. So they need to be a bit more consistent with the speed of the hobble.

Rick didn't have much to do this episode, but it wasn't his episode - it was Shanes - but we did get some time with Glenn too, as he's not been in much of the first two episodes.

I also hope they wrap up this Sophia thing soon too - we didn't see her in that clip, but perhaps she's off camera in the house sleeping or something, because I can't imagine they'd all be hanging around doing that when a girl is still out there missing. So whether she's dead or alive, we don't know, but I'd hope that they find her in episode four.

Finally - the zombie hanging by it's neck was awesome - the legs having been eaten away was a gleefully gruesome touch. :elol: It's also good how they paired Andrea and Dale together - the former is in a confused emotional state, the latter is in purely practical harsh reality mode, and I think Andrea learns something from that ... but as I've said before, hopefully we'll see a softer side to Daryl when he finally gets the chance to pause for a moment without looking over his shoulder.

As for episode four, I wonder if we'll get to see the barn full of zombies.

[babomb]

I think the scene where Dale walks off and leaves Carol on top of the RV was done to convey the idea that Carol can't use a firearm. Because Dale tries to give her his rifle to keep watch while he's gone, but Carol won't take it and says "I don't know how to use that". It's setting the situation up for everyone to have to become able to handle themselves. As it is they're all subject to each others weaknesses and inabilities. They function as a group of individuals, not as a cohesive team of survivors that can look out for each other.

I'm just getting really sick of the commercials on FX, its like the shows barely been on 2 minutes before the next 5 long minute ad break, its really breaking the immersion for me I couldn't agree more! It's aggravating, and it gets worse toward the end of the episode. What's even worse is that they won't allow you to fast forward through the ads when you watch it "on-demand" anymore either. Although, it's not on FX here, it's on AMC.

[Andy]

Seemingly it's just us two Brits who watch it on FX! All the other Brits download it, the cheeky gits. :p

Hey i watch it FX too.. a workmate of mine actually offered me the entire season 2 on DVD and i went mad at him! Part of the fun is watching it build up week by week and making guesses as to what happens next..

I Dont post much on it becuase i really dont know what i can add, everytime i come on here and read the topics all my questions or what i would have posted seem to have been covered already lol

[Ragnarr]

Hey i watch it FX too.. a workmate of mine actually offered me the entire season 2 on DVD and i went mad at him! Part of the fun is watching it build up week by week and making guesses as to what happens next..

I Dont post much on it becuase i really dont know what i can add, everytime i come on here and read the topics all my questions or what i would have posted seem to have been covered already lol

C'mon brother, I'm sure the folks on here can't cover every possible aspect of a topic du jour. Hell, even if you told me that I was completely talking out my arss once in awhile, that'd be a hoot, no? Look at some of my posts. Trust me, I type most of them using only my prehensile buttocks. ;)

[Andy]

What can i really add to whats been said? This, like the other 2 walking dead topics are great topics.

The only thing that comes to mind, watching episode 3 again today, is the interesting moments with darryl and andrea which i thought was interesting, perfect characters to pair off in my opinion!

But then MZ went and covered that!! :lol:

[MinionZombie]

The only thing that comes to mind, watching episode 3 again today, is the interesting moments with darryl and andrea which i thought was interesting, perfect characters to pair off in my opinion!

But then MZ went and covered that!! :lol:

'Cos I'm awesome. :sneaky::D:p:lol:

Gotta say it though - I'm starting to crush on Maggie - mmm, yes please. ;)

I did like that we got to see them sleeping in the RV; it was such a part of the early TWD stuff that it was kind of cool to see that in there ... also having Carol crying in bed, that kind of harks to some of the trade paperbacks a little further into the series (such as Volume 7, which I just read for the first time this afternoon - man alive, Volume 8 is going to be the tits! :hyper:) ... so it's interesting how very small little things like that can come into play much earlier in the story, just small little nuances and subtleties.

N.B. Regarding the comics, just as a reminder, there's a thread pinned to the top of the TWD forum for comics discussion where spoilers can be flung around freely, so keep any spoilers there ... I'm still trying to catch up on the trade paperbacks, and no doubt there are others like me too.

[Andy]

I Dont know if i agree with what alot of you are saying about shanes psyche, well maybe but not to the extent some of you beleive.

I think thorn made the point a few days ago but it kinda went unanswered.. The real question about the high school situation here is would shane and otis have been able to make it back to their truck otherwise? they were both almost out of ammo, both injured and carrying heavy bags.. They had a long way to go and the zombies were clearly catching up with them. I think shane was a very desperate man trying to get out of there alive more than anything else, i really dont think he had evil intentions or any malice towards otis. why would he?

[MinionZombie]

I Dont know if i agree with what alot of you are saying about shanes psyche, well maybe but not to the extent some of you beleive.

I think thorn made the point a few days ago but it kinda went unanswered.. I think the real question about the high school situation here is would shane and otis have been able to make it back to their truck otherwise? they were both almost out of ammo, both injured and carrying heavy bags.. They had a long way to go and the zombies were clearly catching up with them. I think shane was a very desperate man trying to get out of there alive more than anything else, i really dont think he had evil intentions or any malice towards otis. why would he?

This is kind of along the lines of where I sit on the issue - a brutal practicality and a brutal loyalty - the practical nature of just being unable to make it to the truck in the circumstances you have explained, and the loyal nature of Shane to Carl (whom he no doubt views in-part as like his own son). Added to the desperation of the situation itself, and you reach a more animalistic state - sacrifice one to save another. If he hadn't, they would have both died and Carl would have most likely died too ... three deaths, as opposed to one ... an extreme solution in an extreme situation - the sort of thing that The Walking Dead comics thrive on, and now we're getting into that kind of thing. Methinks this will make for compulsive viewing! :)