What if the bikers never came in "Dawn"?

[JDFP]

Every now and again I like to think of a good Romero hypothetical just to posit some thoughts from other people here who enjoy the trilogy as much as I do. One of these I've been considering on a recent watch of "Dawn" is:

What if the bikers never came and led to the demise of their little haven?

Do you think they would have stayed in the mall for some period of time until they eventually ran out of food? Would they have eventually broken down into near madness in their confined consumer prison like the folks of "Day" did in eventually turning on each other? Could Fran's baby have survived in that place without any baby food or medical care (much less Fran herself in loss of blood and any other complications that could have arisen from having a baby)? Would they have eventually had an idea to flee - and if so, where would they have gone? It was a bleak world out there, death awaited them.

Anyway, just posting the thought for some thoughts from others here.

j.p.

[kidgloves]

No baby food? Its a mall. They have EVERYTHING. Food of every kind would have been there. They probably would have to eliminate meat from their diet as time passed though.

Anyway. I've always thought that Stephen would have grown bored of Fran and gone slightly stir crazy causing Fran to turn to Peter. Shit hits the fan with Stephen like he reacted to the bikers and it ends up with Peter having to dispose of Stephen. It would have to be FUBAR for that to happen but Stephen had some serious issues and was a danger to everyone.
Many years down the line they would move on out of necessity and curiosity.

THE END

[Mr.G]

They wouldn't leave until all supplies/food were gone which could be years. They had it too good there. Outside or being bored, what else is a concern? They had food, supplies, games, water, ammo and the ability to go outside for fresh air. Perhaps they would do short trips on the helicopter in search of survivors or additional resources. My ass would be very satisified given the reality of being safe.

[dracenstein]

I think Fran and Stephen would, in the end, just ignore each other. But then again, maybe the baby might have brought them together again? Nah, probably not.

Peter? I think he would probably would want to eventually move on, but probably wouldn't as he would feel the need to protect Fran and baby. Unless Fran, Peter and baby took the helicopter to new pastures (Fiddler's Green? Matool island?) leaving Stephen to wander the Mall like a zombie.

[Ragnarr]

Every now and again I like to think of a good Romero hypothetical just to posit some thoughts from other people here who enjoy the trilogy as much as I do. One of these I've been considering on a recent watch of "Dawn" is:

What if the bikers never came and led to the demise of their little haven?

Do you think they would have stayed in the mall for some period of time until they eventually ran out of food? Would they have eventually broken down into near madness in their confined consumer prison like the folks of "Day" did in eventually turning on each other? Could Fran's baby have survived in that place without any baby food or medical care (much less Fran herself in loss of blood and any other complications that could have arisen from having a baby)? Would they have eventually had an idea to flee - and if so, where would they have gone? It was a bleak world out there, death awaited them.

Anyway, just posting the thought for some thoughts from others here.

j.p.


Interesting topic JP.

My guess would be that if it wasn't that particular biker group that came by, it would've likely been some other group to come knocking at their glass doors. If their mall was not to be raided at all, then I suppose the three characters would've eventually flown to another mall to begin the process of securing it again. This is of course assuming that they didn't "lose their noodles" and kill each other or themselves by suicide. The baby thing could've been a BIG problem for them. The likely possibility of complications during birth, the baby crying at times that they might need it to be quiet in a bad situation, and dealing with all the illnesses babies tend to have requiring professional help would all serve to make this scenario a nightmare.

[Legion2213]

Hold on, they were loading up the helichopper with supplies before the raiders came anyway, and Fran seemed to think she'd got her own way...I thought they were were all set up to leave before raidergeddon.

[kidgloves]

Hold on, they were loading up the helichopper with supplies before the raiders came anyway, and Fran seemed to think she'd got her own way...I thought they were were all set up to leave before raidergeddon.

They were just planning ahead. Thats all

[MissJacksonCA]

If it wasn't the bikers it would've been someone else... it was interesting that it was a rag tag group of bikers that compromised the perceived safety of the mall but really for me it was only a matter of time. To me the mall was made into a safe place but they developed this feeling of complacency where they lived like what was happening outside was happening but that they were kind of safe from it. And in some long-term sense its crippling to have that kind of mindset because you're not living every day with the vigilance required to stay sharp and they developed an unsafe attachment to the mall and the easy access to all the schtuff in the mall. Which obviously (don't mean to spoil anything here but its just assumed I'm not going to) led to the downfall of the group. If it wasn't the bikers it would've been looters who used another means of traveling It would've been slightly more interesting in some way to see a group secretly and quietly attack the obviously occupied mall and have the fab four shocked by a sneak attack. I think the movie would make a great 'historical document' to show the necessity for no one place should serve as any long-term shelter, everyone needs to know how to do everyone elses 'job' so the group isn't crippled by the loss of any of its members, and that they needed to get out more and kill some zombies to stay sharp, alert, and aware of the fact that isht is hitting the fan and they need to place that fact above all pregnancies and desires to nest and lull away the reality that zombies are out there waiting to have dinner.

[childofgilead]

I can definitely see the situation with the three of them becoming explosively hostile in the time ahead. Hell, the scene before the bikers attack is Fran and Stephen having a little bit of a standoff over the television set.

But honestly, the whole situation was hopeless. Sure, let's say that the birth goes fine and the baby is ok. Sure, they can feed it for a while, people have been having children the hard way for time immemorial. But the mortality rate was appalling. Anything and everything could have happened.

What if the baby died in utero? Would that infect Fran?

And that place was no worse or better than anywhere else. They had protection from the undead, that's it. Humans got in just fine. If they were to go somewhere else, they'd have to start over again. With a possibly colicky child and a weakened mother tagging along.

No. Honestly, the situation was hopeless the moment we found out she was pregnant. And I think Peter realized that.

(I'm not saying that women are weak or that pregnant women can't protect themselves BTW. It's just that after repeated viewings, to me the ending is just as sinister and empty as Day's is)

[bassman]

Hold on, they were loading up the helichopper with supplies before the raiders came anyway, and Fran seemed to think she'd got her own way...I thought they were were all set up to leave before raidergeddon.

They were just getting prepared in case they needed to make a quick escape. Same reason Fran wanted to learn to fly. Which was a good plan, because they ended up needing it....

As for no bikers? I agree with others that someone else would've eventually came around looking. It might have been the next day or years down the road, but someone would eventually try to get into that mall. In the mean time, things would have continued to deteriorate for Fran, Peter, and Stephen. As Fran says, "what have we done to ourselves?". They would have eventually gone a bit crazy with cabin fever and either decided to take the chance and leave for greener pastures, or stay and sink deeper into depression and eventually commit suicide.

[Mike70]

In the mean time, things would have continued to deteriorate for Fran, Peter, and Stephen. As Fran says, "what have we done to ourselves?". They would have eventually gone a bit crazy with cabin fever and either decided to take the chance and leave for greener pastures, or stay and sink deeper into depression and eventually commit suicide.

i've always thought so too. the longer those 3 remained cooped up there, the more depressed they would've become. isolation has an extremely powerful negative effect on the human psyche. could you really stare at the same two people, day after day, month after month, maybe year after year without going a little crazy? i know i couldn't and i love spending lots of time by myself. the biggest problem is that there would be no place to go for a break, for a moment of sanity. you are trapped like a rat in a cage. Fran was dead-on right: the Mall was more of a prison than it would ever be paradise.

[bassman]

Maybe if they could have waited out the winter it wouldn't have been so hard on their minds. I know I would spend nearly all summer up on the roof of that mall. Sunshine and fresh air can go a long way, imo.

[Mike70]

Maybe if they could have waited out the winter it wouldn't have been so hard on their minds. I know I would spend nearly all summer up on the roof of that mall. Sunshine and fresh air can go a long way, imo.

true about the weather but you'd still be trapped on the top of roof with no place else to go. even that would real old after awhile.

i'm surprised that they didn't try to find more fuel for the 'copter and then use it to look for other survivors. that would've been one of my first thoughts in that situation: how can we get our hands on a supply of fuel, so we can do enough flying to maybe find some other folks. you could also use it to scout out the area and find places that have lower concentrations of the undead. the possibilities would be endless but they don't really even make an attempt.

[Neil]

true about the weather but you'd still be trapped on the top of roof with no place else to go. even that would real old after awhile.

i'm surprised that they didn't try to find more fuel for the 'copter and then use it to look for other survivors. that would've been one of my first thoughts in that situation: how can we get our hands on a supply of fuel, so we can do enough flying to maybe find some other folks. you could also use it to scout out the area and find places that have lower concentrations of the undead. the possibilities would be endless but they don't really even make an attempt.

Maybe they didn't have enough fuel to risk flying about trying to find aviation fuel?

[bassman]

Maybe they didn't have enough fuel to risk flying about trying to find aviation fuel?

Most likely. I believe its Roger that says everyone probably drained all the local airport pumps and took off when everything first started. Their supply around town would be limited, but it would be worth a shot. They could have at least looked for fuel during Fran's training process. Two birds with one stone....

[JDFP]

Maybe if they could have waited out the winter it wouldn't have been so hard on their minds. I know I would spend nearly all summer up on the roof of that mall. Sunshine and fresh air can go a long way, imo.

Sunshine is good, but I think the smell would have permeated everything (when you have a few thousand rotting corpses just a few yards away I'd imagine there wouldn't be a lovely fragrance in the air). I'd say they probably got used to the smell (to an extent) though.

I wonder if they heard them outside the mall from where they were as, if you recall, they had knocked out the glass ceiling to get inside. Cardboard or whatever they put up may not have been very sound-resistant, so just imagine the horror of trying to sleep at night with hearing moans and shuffling right outside. It must have sucked when it was really cold too.

j.p.

[bassman]

I wonder if they heard them outside the mall from where they were as, if you recall, they had knocked out the glass ceiling to get inside. Cardboard or whatever they put up may not have been very sound-resistant, so just imagine the horror of trying to sleep at night with hearing moans and shuffling right outside. It must have sucked when it was really cold too.


I've wondered why they didn't build a better structure over that glass ceiling. They obviously had the material and tools to make something a bit more insulated. Considering the window was directly above their living area, there must have be a cold breeze coming from that window. Cardboard or no cardboard. And it's not like they had anything else to do....

[JDFP]

I've wondered why they didn't build a better structure over that glass ceiling. They obviously had the material and tools to make something a bit more insulated. Considering the window was directly above their living area, there must have be a cold breeze coming from that window. Cardboard or no cardboard. And it's not like they had anything else to do....

Now that's not entirely true. If their purchase totaled $5 or more in the next hour they had the option for a free bag of hard candy in the Penney's. How can you go wrong with that?

:D

j.p.

[Debbieangel]

I think they had the best that the world could offer, why go on outside of the mall?
If it were me per sa I would hope that new people would come. You could get news of what was happening outside without having to leave the comfort of a protected area.
Ofcourse you are taking a chances letting other people come in but, really how would you feel if you could help someone and you out of selfish survival don't let them in and they get eaten/killed by the zombies?
I say selfish survival cause if we don't have some sense of humanity then what are we? Make do with what you have so to speak.
I like how "Rick Grimes" is on "The Walking Dead" he is ready to do anything for anyone that needs help. I would hope that is how things would be in a zombie acop in a perfect zombie acop world. lol

[Philly_SWAT]

What if the bikers never came and led to the demise of their little haven?

Ahhh....I love questions like this! If there were more questions of this type I would probably come around here more often. A short answer would be this...I think they would have stayed there indefinitely as long as it was safe and they had food. I think they realized that the idea of "going somewhere better" was a pipe dream. Why risk a safe environment they were already in for some theoretical idea of somewhere safer? There was a lot of sheer luck that they secured the mall to begin with, not very likely they could do so again elsewhere.


Do you think they would have stayed in the mall for some period of time until they eventually ran out of food?

Yes, I do. And I would think that when the food supply started to get low, one of the main plans would have had to been getting food from elsewhere and bringing it back to the mall. Assuming that the water system would continue to work (Not sure how long it would, and even then, they could figure out many ways to save rainwater from the massive roof) they could actually build some raised beds on the roof and grow veggies up there. It would be safe to garden, get natural rain and sunlight. There should have been bags of dirt in the garden areas of the dept stores...it was doable.


Would they have eventually broken down into near madness in their confined consumer prison like the folks of "Day" did in eventually turning on each other?

I dont think that they would. The folks in Day were "not on the same team" to begin with. The military and the scientists had different core values and ideas about what should be done. Our mall survivors had the same goals...simple survival. Peter had become friends with Fran and Flyboy, and obviously Flyboy and Fran liked each other to begin with. Yes, they had arguments and different ideas about things...what couple doesnt experience that, even in normal times?


Could Fran's baby have survived in that place without any baby food or medical care (much less Fran herself in loss of blood and any other complications that could have arisen from having a baby)?

Of course, anything is possible, but as someone already mentioned, people had babies for centuries with no modern medical complex to help them. Yes, there COULD have been medical issues with the birth, but more than likely not.


Would they have eventually had an idea to flee - and if so, where would they have gone?

I think a couple of things that were never explored in the movie would shed some light here. First of all, they could/should use most of their spare time to learn things. Perhaps they did... we dont know for sure what they were doing in their spare time. They were there for several months...we only have a couple of hours to watch them...surely they werent playing those arcade games all day long. Assuming there was a book store, they could have learned a lot of things about a lot of things. The book store should have had local info as well...local maps, phone books, etc. Even if not, there must have been a map SOMEWHERE in the mall...the security office, an employee break room, somewhere. They could have learned the surrounding areas, the roads, the stores, the neighborhoods, etc. They could have figured out many reasonable areas to look for fuel, food, supplies, etc. There was no rush...as long as there was food in the mall, they could plan their actions. The secured mall was just as good a hideout than anywhere else. The only drawback of the mall is that it would attract raiders (something Peter was worried about all along) but the very premise of the original post is what would happen if the bikers DIDNT come, so we can ignore those issues in this discussion.

With low fuel, the number one priority would have been to find somewhere to get more fuel. And if regular gasoline doesnt work in a chopper (dont know if it does or not) they should read up on how to convert gas engines to accept different types of fuel. A trip to the local library would be helpful if the book stores didnt have that type of info. As I mentioned before, building raised beds on the roof would be the best solution for food. Anyone in that situation would have to think long term about food..."finding food" is only a short term solution. Growing food ( a renewal resource) would have to be included in any plans.

[Eyebiter]

Long as the power stayed on the mall was a safe haven. But with winter looming the survivors would need a plan to escape. Peter and Flyboy would have to find suitable fuel for the helicopter. Think the helicopter uses Jet A which is a form of Kerosene.

Leaving the mall on foot isn't an option, they would use one of the cars inside the mall or move one of the trucks blocking the entrances. Assuming the truck battery and engine is still good after sitting unattended outside for several months.

[Debbieangel]

I wonder how many meat lockers the mall had, remember they were putting dead dead again zombies in the lockers? I am sure when Peter was cooking for Flyboy and Fran there was meat on the menu in some form. I can't remember exactly what he had but I think it was a pasta meal.
I still wouldnt leave the comforts of the mall unless it was absolutely necessary, it would have to be dire for me to leave.
Just think of your local supermarket, you could live real well for a long long time if you ration food wisely.

[Ragnarr]

Long as the power stayed on the mall was a safe haven. But with winter looming the survivors would need a plan to escape. Peter and Flyboy would have to find suitable fuel for the helicopter. Think the helicopter uses Jet A which is a form of Kerosene.

Leaving the mall on foot isn't an option, they would use one of the cars inside the mall or move one of the trucks blocking the entrances. Assuming the truck battery and engine is still good after sitting unattended outside for several months.

Actually, if the characters were able to hold out until winter, the zombies outside the mall would've turned into frosty "zombicles" and wouldn't be much of a threat unless thawed. And I agree the characters could've held out quite a long time rationing the tons of edibles your average shopping mall contains. You can find everything from soup to nuts, although any meat or vegatables I would suggest they comsume first just in case the power runs out.

[Philly_SWAT]

Long as the power stayed on the mall was a safe haven. But with winter looming the survivors would need a plan to escape. Peter and Flyboy would have to find suitable fuel for the helicopter. Think the helicopter uses Jet A which is a form of Kerosene.

Leaving the mall on foot isn't an option, they would use one of the cars inside the mall or move one of the trucks blocking the entrances. Assuming the truck battery and engine is still good after sitting unattended outside for several months.
Agreed that leaving the mall on foot isnt a good option, winter or not. I would submit that even if the power went off, that in and of itself wouldnt be a reason that you had to leave the mall. Would there be somewhere warmer to go? If the mall power went out it stands to reason that all power in the vicinity would be gone as well. I am sure there would be a wood stove or an equivilant in the mall somewhere that they could use, and they could have used just about anything to burn in there. There was probably charcoal and/or gas grills as well.


I wonder how many meat lockers the mall had, remember they were putting dead dead again zombies in the lockers? I am sure when Peter was cooking for Flyboy and Fran there was meat on the menu in some form. I can't remember exactly what he had but I think it was a pasta meal.
I still wouldnt leave the comforts of the mall unless it was absolutely necessary, it would have to be dire for me to leave.
Just think of your local supermarket, you could live real well for a long long time if you ration food wisely.
In real life back in the late 70s I dont think there would have been THAT many freezers in the mall. Maybe someone from the area would know for sure.
(EDIT: Arent you from nearby there Debbie? There wasnt that many restaurants back in 78 was there?)
But where the food court is in the mall today is where the skating rink was in the movie. Food courts were not common back then. However, under the "perpetual now" theory, you could argue that there was a food court that we just didnt see on film. I do know that if it were me, and once we got settled, one task would be to carry the zombies to the roof and throw them over to get them out of the freezer. it would be an arduous task, but its not like they had a job to go to.


Actually, if the characters were able to hold out until winter, the zombies outside the mall would've turned into frosty "zombicles" and wouldn't be much of a threat unless thawed. And I agree the characters could've held out quite a long time rationing the tons of edibles your average shopping mall contains. You can find everything from soup to nuts, although any meat or vegatables I would suggest they comsume first just in case the power runs out.
Yes, the winter SHOULD make the zeds fairly immobile, however, the dead should not rise to want to eat the living either, so we dont know for sure what effect freezing temps would have on them. The zombies were pretty mobile in "Dead Snow". Then again, the Nazis may have given them a super warmth formula.

[Mike70]

Think the helicopter uses Jet A which is a form of Kerosene.


that is correct. helicopter fuel is a form of kerosene. in an emergency, you can run one on kerosene but it can cause problems with the engine over time. kerosene would be easier to find than avfuel, so it would at least give you the time to find a suitable supply of the right fuel.

[Ragnarr]

Yes, the winter SHOULD make the zeds fairly immobile, however, the dead should not rise to want to eat the living either, so we dont know for sure what effect freezing temps would have on them. The zombies were pretty mobile in "Dead Snow". Then again, the Nazis may have given them a super warmth formula.

I understand what you're saying and there can be some weird SciFi movie spins on the undead. But to suggest that we don't know if cold would freeze the zombie's bodies is the same as saying that we don't know if bullets fired from a pistol or rifle would blast holes in their bodies. The bullets would y'know. It's pure physics. ;)

[AcesandEights]

Let's put it this way, zombies should freeze...sure there may be something to them that works like a sort of anti-freeze, or at least lessens the degree or ease with which they'd freeze (just constant movement would help slightly, for example), but based on what we know and common sense (outside of the necessities of film plotting) they should.

Now that said, I always figured Romero would have zombies still a threat in wintery conditions, somehow...just because he seemed like a stickler when it came to putting the vast amount of humanity up the creek without a paddle. "Oh, the dead rising from the grave? Can't we wait till they start to rot, shouldn't take too long in some climates." <Enter Dr. Logan> "On revival, the rate of decomposition slows substantially." :rolleyes:

[Neil]

<Enter Dr. Logan> "On revival, the rate of decomposition slows substantially." :rolleyes:

I've always been happy with that caveat. I don't find it a huge leap of faith that what ever ungodly thing has brought these things back to life, also trips up mother nature in the rotting department.

[paranoid101]

If the bikers hadn't have come, they wouldn't have had to leave the mall due to a custard pie shortage

[sandrock74]

If the bikers hadn't have come, they wouldn't have had to leave the mall due to a custard pie shortage

The horror! Anything but that!

[Brubaker]

If the biker gang had never come, these are the outcomes I think we would have seen.

1. Assuming they stick around in the mall, at least one of the members commits suicide within a few months out of sheer boredom or frustration. You imagine the prospect of spending the rest of your life rotting in a shopping mall with barely any human contact. Then consider having day after day to stew over this very thought because there is nothing else to do with your time. Most likely to pull the trigger? Fran, Peter, Stephen, in that order.

2. Perhaps the group sticks around in the mall for awhile and then they all decide it is time to leave. As they are out on their own again, either with the chopper or without, either Roger or Stephen (possibly both) do something stupid to put themselves or the entire group in peril. And that is the end of our "further" story or adventures of Peter, Roger and the gang.

[Neil]

Imagine if they held up for 2-3 years in that mall. Surely the dead would be incapicitated by then? ie: Rotten enough not to pose a threat, if indeed even exist?

I think most people could face 2-3 years knowing the world would be a very different place by the end of it!

[Ragnarr]

Imagine if they held up for 2-3 years in that mall. Surely the dead would be incapicitated by then? ie: Rotten enough not to pose a threat, if indeed even exist?

I think most people could face 2-3 years knowing the world would be a very different place by the end of it!

I'm guessing that those doing a few years in prison would agree, but then again there's always a few that can't mentally survive even that long and choose to "opt out".