How did the bikers survive?

[Philly_SWAT]

I had always wondered about this. Peter says "Looks like they've been surviving on the road all through this thing". At this point, all they know is that the bikers are there, and are now on their way to the mall to attempt to get in. Now I suppose it IS true that the bikers have survived (they are not dead yet, after all), but Peter calls them a "professional army". Even if you want to assume that bikers are tough bad-asses in general, that alone wouldnt enable them to survive. Survival would require intelligence, planning, good strategy...qualities that the bikers show almost none of.

They attack the mall with reckless abandon. They steal jewelry off still animated zombies. They try to use zombies as human shields...err...zombie shields. They attack at night. Wouldnt a day time attack be better, so they would be more likely to SEE a possible danger? Is it a good idea to put your arm around the neck of a zed like Savini does? Wouldnt it better to SHOOT a zombie first, THEN steal the rings off their fingers? Its not like the bikers appeared to be saving ammo, they were shooting wildly. And of course the one biker getting his blood pressure checked...WITH ZOMBIES ALL AROUND!!

Of course, all these things can be attributed to "well they were written that way" or " that had to behave that way for the movie to end as it did" and I understand that. But the idea that several months into the outbreak after civilization had entirely broken down, would anyone really risk there lives to steal some jewelry? What are you going to do with? It is the same dumb 'greed-motivation' that Cholo displays in Land that bothered me as well.

But doesnt it seem highly unlikely that such a group of undisciplined people could have survived "on the road" for such a long period of time? Especially on bikes. At least in cars a slight error doesnt mean you would be bitten. Any interesting theories as to how the bikers COULD have survived while attacking so carelessly?

[Legion2213]

Has to be dumb luck, they were a right bunch of tools.

Maybe being mobile helped them a bit, but all the same, it's a good question because they were obviously a shower of brutish retards, I suppose they may have kept their numbers at a decent level by co-opting a few folks who they had previously raided or something...for all we know the group may have been two, three or four times the size earlier on, they could have been being whittled down at a regular rate.

[dirtydwarf]

They were idiots fer sure. I have wondered the same thing. Kinda wished that more thought would have went into their raid.

[Rancid Carcass]

I think they were just looting for the sake of looting - kinda like what some people do in the wake of a natural disaster, taking advantage of the fact that law enforcement agencies have got all their resources tied up elsewhere. Not sure that they would have had a long-term survival strategy, I'd imagine they'd be half expecting the authorities to get control of the situation eventually (like everyone else), and they were just taking what they could when they can. It's also probably the reason why people were still taking or placing value on money - if they're thinking it's only a temporary crisis or are expecting society to recover, then you might as well make sure you are rich when it does - like Peter said: "You never know!"

As for their behaviour, well, it's not hard to imagine that a group like this would be loaded on drink and drugs for much of the time - hence the pie fights, blood pressure checks and shooting off their ammo, etc.

[krakenslayer]

It's possible that the bikers had up till now been keeping to back roads and isolated areas (maybe raiding rural gas stations and storage facilities) where concentrations of zombies were far lower. There, their strength in numbers probably allowed them to piss around drunkenly shooting zombies, stealing shit, getting in brawls, etc. without any real strategy other than brute force, maybe only losing one or two people here and there. The mall seemed to be in the outer suburbs of the city, so perhaps they originally intended to pass the city by until Savini and his comb spied the chopper hovring in the distance and moved in for a closer look.

It seems believable that Romero had something like this in mind when you consider the subtext of the film, that materialism and creature comforts lull people into a false sense of security and complacency. The bikers thought the risk was worth it and arrogantly assumed that their combat skill that helped them survive in the sparsely-populated countryside would see them through, only to find themselves outclassed in the middle of a horde, and too drunk and self-confident to know when to call it quits.

[dirtydwarf]

All great points...

[Ragnarr]

The mall attack could have been the biggest raid that the biker group ever conducted. The easily killed bikers were likely pledges; noobs that recently joined the group but lack any form of common sense whatsoever.

The zombies for their part definitely gave the biker group a black eye and perhaps even knocked out a couple of teeth. I didn't see anything that could rate the bikers as "professional" unless it's possible to become professional at being a large group of well-armed goofballs. :duh:

[Brubaker]

I'd say the group probably survived on account of their bikes being able to get them out of most of the sticky situations they encountered. The whole concept of a fast getaway.

We see that the leader is reasonably smart because he is shown staking out the mall before the gang makes their move, instead of just rushing into the mall without a plan. He is also shown communicating by radio. That suggests the gang was probably communicating with other biker groups or possibly law enforcement groups gone rogue to exchange information back and forth with each other, such as what areas were safer than others, etc. So I'd say the biker gang had decent leadership skills. Besides, we don't even see the biker gang get into much trouble until Stephen started a gunfight with them.

For me, there are a couple other interesting questions that come from this.

1. Assuming the biker gang either never broke into the mall or did break into the mall but left mostly intact, where would they have gone to and what do you suppose they would have been doing around the timelines of Day of the Dead or Land of the Dead?

2. Frankly, I've always wondered how the majority of the characters from Land of the Dead managed to survive for years after the outbreak. People like Riley, Charlie, Slack, Cholo, Foxy, Pretty Boy, Mulligan and people like that didn't necessarily have any noticeable skills that people from a biker gang wouldn't already have. The majority of them didn't have any military background either and some of them were using guns no different than what a private resident or civilian would own in their home. One of the things I always disliked about Land is that most of the characters had no business surviving that long.

[childofgilead]

But..they didn't survive..well most of them..right?

Heh..seriously though, their numbers were straight up decimated by two dudes, one of which could barely hit a mannequin. Sure, they had numbers, but those numbers were empty. They farted around and most of 'em got ripped open for their troubles.

Maybe the dude with the SS helmet was the ringleader. He presumably survived, getting into the van and speeding off and all. But I'd say their numbers were so depleted by that one raid that I can't see them raiding places that are defended often. Unless they first started out with half the population of New Jersey and were whittled down over the months on the road.

In context of the movie, they were a danger, sure. They inflicted a casualty in the group, a third gone, just like that.

I don't really think that they'd raided anyplace that was defended. They probably counted on their numbers and the perceived dangers to force surrender or those squatting on supplies simply hid out and let them take what they could carry.

Great thread!

[Ragnarr]

The bikers didn't get into trouble (i.e. taking casualties) until Peter and Stephen began firing on them. I can only assume that the biker gang was used to making successful supply raids when their opposition was only zombies. Being fired upon might have been a totally new (and unforseen) situation for them, and they thus handled it quite poorly.

[Sammich]

The sombrero guy that kept playing around with the blood pressure machine was a hero.

[sandrock74]

The sombrero guy that kept playing around with the blood pressure machine was a hero.

He kept pumping quarters into the blood pressure machine right up until the literal last minute in an attempt to bolster the local economy. That, my friend, is a hero!

[Philly_SWAT]

1. Assuming the biker gang either never broke into the mall or did break into the mall but left mostly intact, where would they have gone to and what do you suppose they would have been doing around the timelines of Day of the Dead or Land of the Dead?

2. Frankly, I've always wondered how the majority of the characters from Land of the Dead managed to survive for years after the outbreak. People like Riley, Charlie, Slack, Cholo, Foxy, Pretty Boy, Mulligan and people like that didn't necessarily have any noticeable skills that people from a biker gang wouldn't already have. The majority of them didn't have any military background either and some of them were using guns no different than what a private resident or civilian would own in their home. One of the things I always disliked about Land is that most of the characters had no business surviving that long.
I can provide you with the answer to your questions here. You are right that it makes no sense that those particular characters would have problems surviving for a long time. I submit that it was NOT a long time. Unlike the conventional wisdom that Land takes place 3 years in, I think it is a lot closer to the outbreak...around the same time as the events in Dawn.


The bikers didn't get into trouble (i.e. taking casualties) until Peter and Stephen began firing on them. I can only assume that the biker gang was used to making successful supply raids when their opposition was only zombies. Being fired upon might have been a totally new (and unforseen) situation for them, and they thus handled it quite poorly.
It SHOULDNT have been unforseen...they saw the chopper. It is very reasonable to assume that people with a chopper and the ability to block the entrances to the mall had guns. Certainly they couldnt have secured the mall with their good looks!


He kept pumping quarters into the blood pressure machine right up until the literal last minute in an attempt to bolster the local economy. That, my friend, is a hero!
LOL

[dracenstein]

Doesn't it explicitly say that Land takes place three years after the outbreak?

Can't take place at same time as start of Dawn, during the police/National Guard raid on the Projects, they weren't worried about zombies coming up behind them.

The people in Land were just lucky that they were in the right place at the right time, when Kaufman put the fences up. If I was there I would fortify one of those deserted buildings for myself (okay, not the whole building, unless others helped out). But why did there look like people were living in the streets when there were (by the looks of it) lots of abandoned buildings?

[Mike70]

Unlike the conventional wisdom that Land takes place 3 years in, I think it is a lot closer to the outbreak...around the same time as the events in Dawn.


c'mon man, that borders on the ridiculous. it isn't convential wisdom but common sense. it is obvious that Land takes place a long time after the events in dawn or in any of the other movies. the sheer amount of organization and social structure that has arisen is evidence of that. that sort of thing takes time.

what evidence do you have that it takes place sooner?

like dracenstein, i believe that it is explicitly stated in the movie that it has been years since the outbreak.

[krakenslayer]

I can see the logic behind claims that Land takes place before, or around the same time as Day. I don't agree with them, but I can see some sense in the argument. But Dawn!? No way.

Think about the crumbling, gutted remains of the city that we see, crumbling after battles and years of neglect. And lines of dialogue that pepper the film, like "I've lived in the city since... it was a real city." Since a couple of weeks back?

You're barking up the wrong tree there, Philly.

[Mike70]

easy answer:

they found a giant twinkie depot. much to tallahassee's chagrin.

[dracenstein]

Watched Land last night, the only stated date was that Cholo worked for Kaufman for three years.

Of course, we don't know if Cholo worked for him pre-Outbreak.

[EvilNed]

They also mention something about "the last car that drove out of here was three years ago". There's no question Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak. Only question that remains is when Dawn and Day take place.

[Trencher]

I think the bikers are the remmenants of the army and barbaque groups we see the helicopter pass over in the beginning. Or a simmular group. The reason they have survived is that there have been a lot more of them.
Keep in mind diary where you see what Gar thinks about the millitary and survival where you see what he thinks about rual good old boys groups.
I think Garys point was that millitia types are just a small steps away from becoming full fledged vandals.

[Philly_SWAT]

Doesn't it explicitly say that Land takes place three years after the outbreak?
No, as mentioned further down, there are two mentions of the phrase "three years", which in and of itself proves nothing.


Can't take place at same time as start of Dawn, during the police/National Guard raid on the Projects, they weren't worried about zombies coming up behind them.
Yes, around THE START of Dawn...they were in the mall several months by the end of the movie.



c'mon man, that borders on the ridiculous. it isn't convential wisdom but common sense. it is obvious that Land takes place a long time after the events in dawn or in any of the other movies. the sheer amount of organization and social structure that has arisen is evidence of that. that sort of thing takes time.
What borders on ridiculous is thinking that in a scant three years the sheer amount of organization and social structure that has arisen could take place. That in three years, the world has gone from total chaos to a world where people live in luxery apartments, money is used as a means of exchange, and people are so used to/unafraid of zombies that there are used as entertainment in night clubs. Ridiculous that people whose mothers, daughters, sons and fathers have been killed by zombies, or worse yet, BECAME zombies, yet three years later their survivors hoot and holler it up in nightclub watching zombies fight. "Dude, didnt the red zombie used to be your fiance'?" "No, we were actually married before she turned. YEEHAAA!!! Come on honey win this zed fight, I got a 20 spot riding on ya!"

It makes much more sense that the organization and social structure was what was left of the previous society, not some new society. Do you really think a society can be built in three years? And the callousness of the nightclub patrons...it makes more sense that it was kind of a PTSD from recent events, not after 3 years with time to think and grieve.


what evidence do you have that it takes place sooner?
George A. Romero's dead movies.

like dracenstein, i believe that it is explicitly stated in the movie that it has been years since the outbreak.
And like dracenstein, you would be incorrect.


I can see the logic behind claims that Land takes place before, or around the same time as Day. I don't agree with them, but I can see some sense in the argument. But Dawn!? No way.By the end of Dawn, the outbreak was several months in. It makes perfect sense that in Land, the reason they are so protected and organized is because they are close to the start of the outbreak, not well into the outbreak. A major theme in all of GAR's dead movies are that people can not cooperate together, including in Land. But what, they had a MAJOR cooperation effort to retake the city well into the outbreak? That is what makes no sense.


Think about the crumbling, gutted remains of the city that we see, crumbling after battles and years of neglect. And lines of dialogue that pepper the film, like "I've lived in the city since... it was a real city." Since a couple of weeks back?
Have you been to Pittsburgh recently? Many areas of the city RIGHT NOW are crumbling after years or neglect, and there is no zombie outbreak. People could easily say RIGHT NOW the line "I've lived in the city since... it was a real city." But it didnt look crumbling to me. The people were dirty/dingy in Land, but the buildings looked fine. The Green looked absolutely fabulous.




Watched Land last night, the only stated date was that Cholo worked for Kaufman for three years.

Of course, we don't know if Cholo worked for him pre-Outbreak.
Precisely. I have made that exact point in the past.


They also mention something about "the last car that drove out of here was three years ago". There's no question Land takes place 3 years after the outbreak. Only question that remains is when Dawn and Day take place.
So, are you saying that you think it is IMPOSSIBLE that in that particular garage it had been 3 years since a car drove out of there, but that fact has nothing to do with the zed outbreak? It isnt possible that a garage can go out of business prior to a zombie outbreak? There are many garages around here that have been out of business for longer than 3 years. If a zombie outbreak starts tomorrow, and I was at one of those garages, I could say "it had been 10 years since the last car drove out of here". i certainly wouldnt be trying to imply the outbreak had been going on for 10 years. You can say you disagree that was the case in the movie, but you can not say that it doesnt make perfect sense. (OK you COULD say it doesnt make sense, but it doesnt make logical sense).

[Mike70]

you can believe whatever you want, philly. 3 years is a long time and you can forget just about anything in 3 years, esp. if the rest of the world has changed so much and your survival depends on forgetting.

the sheer amount of organization sort of destroys your argument anyway. it takes awhile for that sort of thing to develop. it doesn't happen overnight.

this is my final word on the subject. there are far more interesting threads to waste keyboard strokes on.

[childofgilead]

Taking into assumption that the bikers were, in fact, a singular group and not just outriders of a larger force, they were decimated by ONE Philadelphia SWAT member..all Stephen did was distract, I don't recall him getting a single human kill.

They had the numbers, they had the guns..what they were short on was common sense and a modicum of preservation instinct.

On the one hand, you can dismiss it as a comic book of a movie, which it's creator has sometimes implied. Or, you can take what you see on the screen, apply logic and come to some sort of understanding.

There looked to be some hardcore bikers along with some hangers on. Blood pressure guy, SS helmet, basically most that aren't wearing leathers. Now, we don't see the fates of alot of the bikers who we get close ups of, but we do see what kind of carnage a single well armed, well trained, well disciplined fighter can inflict on a bunch of yahoos who rely on noise and numbers. They ran off when the bullets started flying.

Hell..I'm up too late again with too little sleep..rambling..must stop..*gruz*