Islam joins the 21st century, and then promptly leaps back to the 15th again...

[Neil]

"Afghan President Hamid Karzai has pardoned a rape victim who was jailed for adultery"

Yeh! Common sense has come into play! A women who was raped, and was in prison for being raped, is now being let out of prison! Welcome to the 21st century Islam! Well done!

"...after she apparently agreed to marry her attacker."

DOH! :annoyed:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15991641

[Eyebiter]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RebsdHZwTGA/TcQ6QAWokkI/AAAAAAAAFlo/4AL1pEmLQrg/s400/12.jpg

[Purge]

Islam--the new Communism.

[SymphonicX]

Sorry if I'm mistaken but aren't you all tarnishing an entire religion based on one country?

Should I get my view of the entire Christian religion from America?

Didn't think so.

[Neil]

Sorry if I'm mistaken but aren't you all tarnishing an entire religion based on one country?

Should I get my view of the entire Christian religion from America?

Didn't think so.

You are of course right. This is a cultural matter more than a religious one. But that said, it is the religious beliefs that are upholding/guiding this behaviour. All too often we seem to see Islam knee deep in cultures embracing medieval behaviour around the world.

[SymphonicX]

You are of course right. This is a cultural matter more than a religious one. But that said, it is the religious beliefs that are upholding/guiding this behaviour. All too often we seem to see Islam knee deep in cultures embracing medieval behaviour around the world.

yeah I agree and I didn't manage to find an off-hand example of a moderate Islamic country but if I was awake I'm sure I could find one....It is very much a cultural thing and this religion has been kinda twisted by nutcases in various countries including the afforementioned. Islam does promote a message of peace, I know because I've read a fair bit of the Qu'ran - unfortuantely the dodgier English versions are a bit twisted also - badly translated and thusly appear far worse than the reality.

[Neil]

yeah I agree and I didn't manage to find an off-hand example of a moderate Islamic country but if I was awake I'm sure I could find one....It is very much a cultural thing and this religion has been kinda twisted by nutcases in various countries including the afforementioned. Islam does promote a message of peace, I know because I've read a fair bit of the Qu'ran - unfortuantely the dodgier English versions are a bit twisted also - badly translated and thusly appear far worse than the reality.

But it also seems incredibly sexist, with the faith being very male orientated (see the case in the OP). I mean, your eternal reward being a flock of virgins? How antiquated is that? Hardly very elevated is it!

http://wikiislam.net/w/uploads/thumb/9/9b/72-houris.jpg/250px-72-houris.jpg

[SymphonicX]

But it also seems incredibly sexist, with the faith being very male orientated (see the case in the OP). I mean, your eternal reward being a flock of virgins? How antiquated is that? Hardly very elevated is it!

http://wikiislam.net/w/uploads/thumb/9/9b/72-houris.jpg/250px-72-houris.jpg

The only reference I found in the Qu'ran to virgins didn't say virgins, it said something else...I can't remember exactly, it sort of hinted at a heaven full of purity types but from what I can remember (and bearing in mind I only read probably 30% of the whole text) there wasn't an actual direct reference to virgins - but still regardless of that I take your point....it definitely, definitely didn't purport a specific number of virgins - but that could have happened in the 70% I never managed to get through.

But yeah ultimately I agree this is another one of those male dominated doctrines, as is Christianity - which as you know claims that unclean women should be banished from towns at their time of the month and all that jibe - I guess the real tangiable thing here is that modern Christians just can't get away with saying shit like that nowdays, but in the East it's a bit more acceptable. The treatment of women in the middle east is horrendous to us, and in Afghanistan it's particularly wrong.

[EvilNed]

Islam--the new capitalism.

There. Fixed it!

[krakenslayer]

Turkey would be an example of a relatively liberal, progressive and free Muslim country. Then again, it is only a Muslim nation insofar as most of its inhabitants are Muslim, it is not ruled by Shariah law and has a secular separation of church and state. And this is the problem, it's not specifically Islam that is the issue, the issue is theocracy, and this can be any religion and any god. It's simply more common in the middle east where Islam is predominant. There have been Christian theocracies that have been just as barbaric as anything in the Islamic world. Theocracy allows leaders to place difficult things like logic, compassion and critical thinking aside and replace them with prepackaged versions with their roots in a darker, crueller era.

[Eyebiter]

While there are more progressive Islamic countries, other areas are less enlightened. Practices such as Female Genital Mutilation, forcing women to wear veils in public, whipping women who drive, stoning adulterers, cutting off the hands of thieves, and beheading in public seem well suited to the 15th century.

[krisvds]

Turkey would be an example of a relatively liberal, progressive and free Muslim country. Then again, it is only a Muslim nation insofar as most of its inhabitants are Muslim, it is not ruled by Shariah law and has a secular separation of church and state. And this is the problem, it's not specifically Islam that is the issue, the issue is theocracy, and this can be any religion and any god. It's simply more common in the middle east where Islam is predominant. There have been Christian theocracies that have been just as barbaric as anything in the Islamic world. Theocracy allows leaders to place difficult things like logic, compassion and critical thinking aside and replace them with prepackaged versions with their roots in a darker, crueller era.

Very much this. Let's not forget the west was luckily hit by the age of enlightenment. Much of the freedom we take for granted found root in that age. It's sometimes scary to see how these ideas are more and more under attack in our free world from populist, often extreme right wing political groups...

[AcesandEights]

Posted this a few years ago here and it pretty much still sums up the high and lowlights of my feelings on the matter


I too have my concerns about Islam, especially with regards to its emphasis on conversion by the sword, the different sorts of Jihad, Fatwas etc. It is important to realize that there have been Islamic kingdoms that were exceedingly open-minded with regards to science (more so than their Christian contemporaries) and were especially open-minded and cosmopolitan (for their time) with regards to how they dealt with people of other religions (paying a tax, as opposed to killing them or driving them out of the community or the like). Also, Christianity, with it's somewhat mixed message of love thy enemy, turning one's cheek, the emphasis on conversion by proselytizing and the idiom of the righteous still managed to be hell on wheels back in the day to people who did not conform or were not members of the broader Christian faith.

However, reasonably speaking--and this is all generalities--I think the primary differences lie in not just the tenets of Islam and how the culture grew up around it (conversion by sword, Jihad etc.) but the fact that Islam has not been thoroughly secularized on a par with the other modern societies and is--in effect, and I hate to put it this--somewhat backwards when compared to the social/cultural/political trends of the last...oh, hundred or so years.

I think this is more of a case of cyclical reinforcement, where you have Islam flourishing under monarchical and/or tribal patriarchal lines (natural for it's time of development) and then reinforcing those power/political customs and suppressing ideals that might lead to democracy and the whole bally-wick of progressive ideas that follow after.

Of course, it's not that simple, but I feel it's a big piece in the puzzle.

Anyway, I'm not religious, either. I've read the bible (old/Tanakh and new testaments) a few different times coming up and have probably read most of the major apocrypha, but have only scratched the surface on Islam and I really have to get back to reading the Koran this year, hopefully an abridged version or with a companion reader.

Anyway, sorry to go on, but this stuff has been on my mind a lot lately.

Basically, Islam just needs to fall under the pervasive sway of modern thought and be gelded by secularism...like Christianity largely has been in the West.

[krakenslayer]

While there are more progressive Islamic countries, other areas are less enlightened. Practices such as Female Genital Mutilation, forcing women to wear veils in public, whipping women who drive, stoning adulterers, cutting off the hands of thieves, and beheading in public seem well suited to the 15th century.

Absolutely. As I say, this is a danger wherever religion is allowed to take the leading role in government.

-- -------- Post added at 09:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:55 PM ----------


Very much this. Let's not forget the west was luckily hit by the age of enlightenment. Much of the freedom we take for granted found root in that age. It's sometimes scary to see how these ideas are more and more under attack in our free world from populist, often extreme right wing political groups...

Absolutely. Imagine the religious right get what they want: homosexuality is ostracised, capital and corporal punishment are re-introduced, family planning is outlawed, women are encouraged to stay home and be housewives and not take jobs, unmarried couples and unwed mothers are penalized through the tax system, etc. Then imagine the generation that grows up in this environment, to whom this world is the norm. This generation will have its own conservatives, whose politics aims to the right of their current regeime. Next thing you know, THEY are in power, introducing laws that limit women's dress length to below the knee, send homosexuals to compulsory re-education camps, etc. Within a few generations we too are reduced to saying raped women "wanted it", whipping Sabbath breakers, stoning homosexuals, etc.

Sure, this is a slippery slope argument and such dangers exist at both extreme right and extreme left, but my point is this: we shouldn't look at Islamic theocracy and pat ourselves on the back about how much more civilised we are, nor should we see it only as a direct threat to our way of life, but as a dire example of what could happen to us if we are not vigilant. The west could easily be consumed by its own mythology and dogma, just like the middle east has been by its.

[Mike70]

i'm simply amazed that so many people pay such attention to a book that was ripped off and cobbled together from other religious texts.

ALL missionary religions are inherently dangerous. that includes the christian religion. any religion that actively seeks to convert others to the "truth" (by force and with the blessing of "god" in some cases) is nothing any decent person should bother a second with.

yes, i have read the qu'ran before and would rather read a bio of dustin diamond rather than go through that muddled, ridiculous book again.

being an atheist (and a nasty one at that), i have as much patience for islam as i do for mormonism, catholicism, judaism, baptists, episcopals, hinduism, zoroastrians, etc.

the world could do with far, far fewer believers in religions of all sorts. we don't need that shit anymore as a species. we've gone beyond that and should have become better than that by now.

[blind2d]

Ah, spoken like a true atheist. But y'know, even with all the bad stuff, there's still some good stuff that comes out of religion. Community. Love. Feeling safe with a group that believes the same things you do. Bake sales.
But of course there's the bad... If only we could get rid of that somehow... Hmm...