TWD 2x09 "Triggerfinger" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Okay folks - one down, five to go, in the second half of season two. :cool:

Remember - keep all discussion of the episode WITHIN THIS THREAD - many forum members don't get to see the episode until days later (e.g. my fellow Brits and I don't get to see it until the following Friday night at the earliest - five days later), so please don't post any spoilers or general info in other discussion topics or in the shoutbox - thanks for your consideration in this matter.

[Thorn]

Hate waking up early on a Sunday, so many hours to go before TWD...

Sneak Peek Episode 209 The Walking Dead: Triggerfinger (http://www.amctv.com/the-walking-dead/videos/sneak-peek-episode-209-the-walking-dead-triggerfinger)

http://www.amctv.com/the-walking-dead/videos/sneak-peek-episode-209-the-walking-dead-triggerfinger

[Cykotic]

Just seen it on a live stream.... getting good so far

[ProfessorChaos]

one thing that really pissed me off about 2x09: i really don't understand why rick and the other two didn't just leave the kid with the impaled leg for dead or put a bullet in his head and end it there. aside from that, a great episode. the walker trying to get at lori through the windshield was creepy as hell.

the whole shane thing is about to break out, and it's gonna be epic. it'll be interesting to see the "team shane" folks defend their boy after this week. while i don't entirely agree with rick, dale, and hershel or their particular methods, they are certainly much more in touch with the reality of the situation compared to shane, as evidenced by his delusional ramblings and pleading with her when he found that lori was siding with rick.

and once again, the wait for the next episode begins. and again, i'm passing on the comic book men. no thanks amc, stick to what got you here in the first place.

[childofgilead]

It seems for every good thing about the show, they just have to cram a middle finger up my nose..first there was the bullshit zombie jump scare last week, and this week, it was the revolver that Lori used APPARENTLY EJECTING A SPENT BULLET CASE..

Ugh..look, I know not everybody cares about stuff like that, but that's just ridiculous guys..other than that, decent episode, even though I know I'm not going to like where else it's going.

[Cykotic]

I spotted a shakespear reference near the end.... think macbeth...

[Zombie Snack]

Great episode, and the crap is about to hit the fan between Rick and Shane, Shane is living in fantasy land. Hershel seems to be coming around and understands what is really going on now. Only real complaint is I really thought Rick or maybe even Hershel were going to shoot the guy stuck on the fence once all the walkers showed up, I was just waiting for it, but as it played out it just seemed a little too hollywood for me.

[Moon Knight]

I thought they were gonna shoot the kid myself, all in all, such a great scene. Intense with great zombie gore tearing up that dude's face.

Why they take him? Not sure and I guess I really don't agree 100% with it but we'll see how it turns out for them.

I found it funny how it looked liked Maggie was going for Herschel but instead ignored him and went straight to Glen, ouch! lol

Ahh and yes, T-Dogg get's his one line in lol

I loved the ending, such a good discussion between Lori and Rick.

Very good episode and I'm willing to forgive some of the bumps in the road.

[Saurian]

I would take the kid myself. He is a kid looks like maybe 17-18. He could have just been following the group he was in and was just doing what he thought was the way to go. He didn't know rick and them were moral individuals so to speak and had no idea what they were gonna do to his group. This guy could later be-friend them and join the group (doesnt look like this is gonna happen just saying) and be another hand to aid them. If they left him how would they be any different then what Shane did? I could understand if it was last minute thing and zombies were right there but it didn't come to that. If that was the case put one in his forehead to put him out of his misery.

[Wyldwraith]

Did I call it about Dale poisoning the group against Shane or what?

Not that I sanction the crazier stuff Shane does, but if you're HONEST in asking yourself this question: "Would the other members of the group be THIS negative towards Shane currently if Dale wasn't going around pouring anti-Shane poison in the ears of the womenfolk?" You know that whether or not Shane is a problem for the group, Dale is and has only exacerbated the situation into something that WILL lead to bloodshed WITHIN the group!

Perspective check: Last week's episode the majority of the group was verbalizing their belief that what Shane did at the barn was necessary and justified, albeit a dirty job all around. In the span of ONE DAY in Walking Dead chronology, we've got Lori essentially Lady Macbeth'ing Rick onto a collision course with Shane that Rick would NOT otherwise be on. You heard Rick trying to mitigate what Lori was saying, telling her things like "You don't know that (about Shane) for sure"...but Lori simply wouldn't let up. It's crazy, because there's NO REASON to believe that even if every single member of the group stood united and declared Shane exiled from their group, NOTHING we've seen shows the slightest hint that Shane would respond in any other way but to throw down right there. Remember: In Shane's mind, he's CERTAIN that Rick WILL get Lori, Carl, and what Shane believes to be HIS unborn child KILLED.

Even if Shane might otherwise be convinced to leave the group peacefully, he'll never do it so long as Rick is the one serving as protector to Lori and Carl. EVERYTHING we've seen about Shane points to him being willing to give his life to stop what he sees as Lori and Carl's inevitable deaths if a) Rick remains in charge, and b) Shane himself won't be there to cover the vulnerabilities of the group that Rick's moral crusading creates. Shane would shoot it out in a hopeless battle against ALL OF THEM first. Why wouldn't he! Ousting him from the group takes away every single reason for him to go on living in this apocalypse.

The scriptwriters and actors have done a WONDERFUL JOB of building up the tension surrounding this situation as it rapidly comes to a boil. Venomous-snake-in-the-grass Dale has struck and delivered his venom of distrust, internal dissension and defensiveness into the collective "bloodstream" of the group. What COULD have been worked out with a lot of no-bullshit, face to face talking about the issues at the core of the conflict brewing between Shane and Rick has been diverted onto a collision course between two men now convinced the other has to die to save the ones they love.

I would go absolutely wild with joy if Shane just sensed how things were about to go down and took his trademark proactive action and shot both Dale and Rick between the eyes. This high school-type backbiting, and condemning the man who kept all of them (except Daryl, because Daryl would've survived even if the group had been wiped out the night Amy died if he'd been there with them) alive while Mr. Moral Crusader was first in coma-land Alice-style, and then meandering about looking for Lori and Carl is madness. Shane was absolutely right when he corrected Lori's reply to his question about how many times had Rick saved her and Carl. Rick WAS off trying to rescue a psychotic bigot redneck when the camp was attacked. Shane was the one who did his best to keep the group together and fighting back as a unit. Everyone who heeded his shouts survived, while everyone who freaked out and ran hither-and-yon got dragged down and ripped into by Walkers.

The episode definitely ratcheted the tension up, and in a very believable way albeit for reasons I hate. Dale is EVIL. He'll lie, cheat and sell out anyone to make people do what he wants them to do. Everything currently happening, with the group perceiving a "Shane problem" has come about because Dale is pissy that Andrea got it on with Shane, but much moreso because it infuriates Dale that Andrea sees "Shane's Way" as something admirable. A way to be strong and self-reliant, instead of being a victim like so many others. Dale hates Shane because Shane is the only one who threatens his ability to control the course the group takes. I genuinely believe that Dale would rather see them all dead than safe and prosperous if that safety and prosperity resulted in him losing his ability to pull the strings of each member of the group to a greater or lesser extent. He wants to act the part of the wise and noble sage, while hypocritically condemning Shane for doing exactly what Dale does. Manipulate the situation to get the group to do things his way.

I don't know what more has to happen for the people who perceive Dale as this kindly old counselor to recognize that Dale is a manipulator trying to bump off the only substantial threat to his control of the group.

[bassman]

one thing that really pissed me off about 2x09: i really don't understand why rick and the other two didn't just leave the kid with the impaled leg for dead or put a bullet in his head and end it there.

I felt that they made it pretty clear why they couldn't leave him or put him out of his misery. For one, he was a younger guy so he could have just fallen into a bad group by chance. Also, leaving him there is exactly what his previous group had done. The same group that was willing to kill Rick in order to gain access to the farm. If they had killed the young guy or left him for dead, it would make Rick one step closer to the enemy. He retained his sense of right and wrong in a time of panic.

I felt it was a great balance between the badass Rick we saw inside the bar and the sensitive Rick we knew from before. They're really starting to mix his character up like the comics.

[Thorn]

one thing that really pissed me off about 2x09: i really don't understand why rick and the other two didn't just leave the kid with the impaled leg for dead or put a bullet in his head and end it there. aside from that, a great episode. the walker trying to get at lori through the windshield was creepy as hell.

the whole shane thing is about to break out, and it's gonna be epic. it'll be interesting to see the "team shane" folks defend their boy after this week. while i don't entirely agree with rick, dale, and hershel or their particular methods, they are certainly much more in touch with the reality of the situation compared to shane, as evidenced by his delusional ramblings and pleading with her when he found that lori was siding with rick.

and once again, the wait for the next episode begins. and again, i'm passing on the comic book men. no thanks amc, stick to what got you here in the first place.

I agree with all of this, and there were a couple of parts I did not much like.
1- The kid on the fence, sorry I am compassionate, kind, giving, caring, a and all of the other stuff I thin k leader needs to be. In this case I think Rick screwed the pooch. You don't risk you and yours to save the enemy. Kid should have been shot in the head. They need those bullets and this kid was trying to kill them.
2- The whole break out of the bar scene did not play out well in my opinion, I understand what they were going for but it felt like a really poor plan from the start. Blindly running out of a building into the waiting arms and muzzles of unknown foes is bad planning. I wouldn't do it, didn't work so good for Butch Cassisdy and the Sundance kid.

Things I liked
1- Windshield zombie was amazing, his selfless pursuit to get to his meal as the glass ripped the very skin and flesh off of his head was brilliantly done and perfectly scary and intense.
2- Shane being shown as a man who is further coming unraveled or who is delusional and who can not be trusted to lead as he is pushing his own goals and agendas... even though they are not based in reality. Mind you I have no problem with him lying to Lori to get her and the baby back to the farm, but dude is clearly a head case. Who is allowing his heart and emotions to get in the way of reality. The woman can only say EFF OFF so many times before you are looking like a desperate level 1 clinger.
3- New Herschel is cooler than old Herschel.
4- The whole Carrol Darryl thing, and her bracing to be hit by him was well played, well acted, and great human drama showing a knowledge of the characters and where they come from.
5- The Glenn/Maggie thing was well acted and motivated even though I am leaning towards liking it I am not sure at this point, it kind of annoyed me that he would push her away in that situation, but I am a romantic at heart. Learning self preservation is a good thing, the kid could use more of it. Take chances and risks but make them calculated ones. Don't let them lower you into a well, or use you as bait, and know you have something to lose.

The episode was a solid minus the minor complaints I had above. Great zombie scenes!

[rightwing401]

Bad ass episode! It really plays on your mind with what you would do in such a situation. The one thing the writers did absolutely right was the guy Herschel shot going right out the door. Typically in movies, a guy who gets a gut shot drops dead like in a video game. Not here. Here, we have to listen to his agonizing cries of pain as he lies potentially dying on the ground in the middle of no where. I don't know why, but that scene really got to me. Maybe its just the fact of hearing another human being, even one that had just shot at you, sounding like a terrified child as he's lying helpless as a mass of walkers close in on him. They really played out well on Herschel's sense of morality as he keeps looking over his shoulder while the guy is being torn apart. You can clearly see the conflict in his face as he reluctantly abandons a bit of his humanity by running away and leaving the poor bastard to his grisly fate.

I totally understand taking the kid. Hell, I might have even gone to check on the other guy. Even after what happened, I don't think I could have left that dude to die like that. If nothing else, I would have gone for a mercy kill if he was unsaveable.

[AcesandEights]

I totally understand taking the kid.

So do I, honestly. I'd have gone either way on checking on him after he fell, depending on how dangerous it all was, but once you get up to him and see his situation I'd think taking him or putting him out of his misery (if worse comes to worse and you can't extract him quickly/safely enough) are the only options.

My only issue with the scene (and it's a small one), is that getting his leg off that broad-headed fencepost seemed way easier than it should have for Rick (or anyone in that situation).

And oh, man...whoever mentioned the walker going through the windshield was right--nice scene! It was creepy, fun and some nice effects.

But, man, what a great episode! I liked it better than 2x08 and I thought 2x08 was pretty darn good for having to get back into things and do a bit of a reset.

-- -------- Post added at 10:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 AM ----------

Oh, and anyone else still really impressed with Yeun's handling of Glenn? They're doing a great job with the character and damned if he isn't likable as hell. Freezing up in that circumstance has gotta be pretty normal for someone who is not used to being shot at (!), but he handled it well afterwards...I really appreciated the way the writers dealt with it.

[Wyldwraith]

It all feels very sudden to me,
All the major character shifts. Herschel getting on board the Reality Train, Rick growing a pair and shooting first when threatened, and Lori pushing Rick towards what amounts to throwing down with Shane. It all felt VERY abrupt to me, like a switch being flipped in each of them with little or no lead up. The only real consistency-of-motivation I saw this episode came from Andrea, Shane and Dale. Even Daryl suddenly backslid in a way that had me reacting with a "Whoa, ease off there man."

Herschel I can give them some leeway on the suddenness because he was just so far out in left field to begin with. His transition of perception felt much more "organic" than the others. That's just my perception though. I rather wish they weren't going with this Lori/Lady Macbeth angle, but understand what they're trying for even if it doesn't suit my tastes.

[erisi236]

Herschel should have popped the guy on the fence, it would have made his transformation complete. Or maybe his "rebirth", we don't know much about his past, maybe he was a drinker all those years because he killed one too many men in some war and later put down the bottle and his iron to live the simple life. He said he knew how to shoot and certainly looked like he knew what he was doing.

And is it just me or is it funny how much a bunch of hypocrites Rick and Co. are? They ramble on to Herschel's farm, and earlier Jenner's lab begging to be let in and the second someone else comes into their lives asking the same they tell them to bugger off, it's hilarious.

[AcesandEights]

And is it just me or is it funny how much a bunch of hypocrites Rick and Co. are? They ramble on to Herschel's farm, and earlier Jenner's lab begging to be let in and the second someone else comes into their lives asking the same they tell them to bugger off, it's hilarious.

I took that turn of events in the bar as more of an understandable escalation with Rick & Co. not wanting to show their hand and being understandably cautious and the two men pushing and escalating matters to a breaking point. There's a distinct difference to me, anyway.

Those two strangers "Shaned it" and paid the price :sneaky:

[Wyldwraith]

Hypocrisy is a core modus operandi for this squad,
When the well-liked (by the audience) characters do something immoral it's perfectly understandable, but even an episode or two later if someone besides Rick/Dale does something underhanded/immoral it's a high crime. It's UNDOUBTEDLY an intended design feature, because episode after episode harps on that hypocrisy that the group somehow continues to fail to see from situation to situation. It's like a 4th-Wall Breach, and the writers are inviting our perception(s) of the dirty deeds done into the story with a wink and a nod. Until recently, I couldn't understand how someone could so passionately hate a core member of TWD crew as many hate Shane, but over the last couple episodes of the first 1/2 of the season and the first couple episodes of this 2nd half of Season Two my dislike of Dale has grown into a manic hatred. The actor that portrays him has amazing chops, because he INTIMATELY understands (seemingly intuitively) the ins and outs of portraying a two-faced hypocrite and heartless manipulator. It can't be unintentional, because no one makes a character so much fun to hate without a lot of forethought and introspection about what it must be like to see the world through the twisted lens of an old man whose perspective demands he be the one pulling the strings of others while (perceivably) keeping his hands spotlessly clean so he can continue to hide behind the mask of Kindly Old Grandpa.

It's really a shame they're writing Shane to be the big in-group antagonist, because Dale has tons more meat on his bones as a great villain.

[AcesandEights]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations.

[erisi236]

Lori and Dale are both probably Imps like Leland Gaunt from Needful Things. They both sit back and push buttons just waiting for an explosion safe in the knowledge that they themselves will be safe.

[AcesandEights]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations.


Lori and Dale are both probably Imps like Leland Gaunt from Needful Things. They both sit back and push buttons just waiting for an explosion safe in the knowledge that they themselves will be safe.

:shifty:

Are you suggesting the attempt to get Rick and the subsequent car accident was an elaborate ruse or ploy of some sort? :p

Okay, you're talking about the bit towards the end. The 'MacBeth' angle towards the end though is an...interesting...choice for them to go with, if a bit hackneyed, though I think it's a pretty realistic way for the character to react considering the circumstance she finds herself in.

[erisi236]

:shifty:

Are you suggesting the attempt to get Rick and the subsequent car accident was an elaborate ruse or ploy of some sort? :p

It's possible.

Lori had no Earthly reason to go after Rick and Glen, none. And who else would ever go after her but Shane?

So Shane ends up saving her from a situation she put herself in for the 48th time, and yet again she makes it out to be that he's the bad guy, and then poisons the well even more with Rick.

Lori is evil incarnate.

[AcesandEights]

Lori is evil incarnate.

Not even Shane is evil incarnate :)

[bassman]

Not even Shane is evil incarnate :)

I'm often shocked how people here and elsewhere are so quick to label these characters as either good or bad as if there is no middle ground. Even Shane has a few redeeming qualities. As for Lori, I think she gets much more hate than she deserves. She may not always make the best decisions(none of these characters ever do, btw. Get used to that, folks), but she's ultimately always trying to do right by her son and husband. Don't get me started on the whole "whore" and "slut" thing from last season...

Something I really loved about last night's episode, the scene where Rick mentions that Hershel missed taget practice, I love Hershel's answer of "I know how to shoot....I just don't like to." That felt like such a classic western line from the guy that was once bad, turned good, and now is called back to his old ways.

I'm not saying they're implying Hershel's good with a gun for bad purposes, but it kinda had that western feeling to it. Anyone else get that feeling?

[sandrock74]

Those two strangers "Shaned it" and paid the price :sneaky:

Shaned it! HA! I'm gonna start using that in my everyday vocabulary. I love it!

[Eyebiter]

Instead of calling to the searchers, the three of them should have quietly exited the bar through the door to the alley. The guys outside were calling to their friends and shining flashlights so it would have been easy enough to avoid them and slip away. Instead Rick tries to "negotiate" and nearly gets all three of them killed. Bad enough they have a wounded enemy sniper with a bum leg to contend with. By letting the guy in the truck escape there are now an unknown number of humans after them with revenge in mind. Will be very interesting to see next week if the prisoner gets immediate medical attention, they withhold treatment until the kid talks, or Shane decides to put him down ASAP. Either way the group break up foreshadowed in 2x07 will soon occur.

[Thorn]

I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations.

This is very true, and it is unavoidable in most cases I think but you see it time and time again. More than anything else your own pre-dispositions to a certain path are what cause you to side with and identify with a character or person. My friend Gene at work is most certainly a supporter of Shane, he admits freely the guy is insane, and a manipulator, that he is selfish, and that he would kill his own group in a second... but he feels strongly that if the crap hit the fan he wants him in the front lines with him.

I can say "yeah until he shoots you in the back to save himself" as much as I like, he still feels he wants Shane around more than Rick and he even admits freely Rick is a better man he just feels he is too nice of a guy. To lead effectively, and he could never take a back seat in his opinion so HE (Gene) could lead if he kept Shane around who is clearly able to follow to some extent (at least seemingly according to how he stepped aside for Rick).

Where as I as I have said countless times would rather get rid of Shane and keep Rick.

As to Wyd's point about the group being hypocrites for not letting dangerous people with a clear agenda and forceful uncompromising manner into their group despite OBVIOUS dialogue that implied they were the wrong people to let into your circle/group is kind of crazy. They basically admit to being horn dogs looking for poon and booze. These guys have ladies back at the camp and strangers with clearly unsavory motives.

In the case of our group they came to people looking for help and at no point presented themselves as scumbags looking to rape, rob, drink, force, and hump their way through the apocalypse.

When Rick realized there was no threat from one of them he put himself and his group in harms way to save the kid. This to me shows this argument to be invalid, this is even AFTER he knows this group to be a threat. When it is armed guys with clearly poor character, armed and talking all kinds of foulness you don't give them the keys to the kingdom. "Oh you won't take no for an answer, admit to doing foul unspeakable things, and being horny and looking to get laid... please come to our safe little farm we are guests at and rape our women... ps bring lots of other guys with guns with the same mindset because this would be awesome for us".

[Wyldwraith]

About Lori:
The only thing that really gets me about Lori is that she makes mistakes, but then when circumstances change she wants to flip-flop and back away from what she now sees as a mistake and leave others to pay the price. Shane wasn't holding Lori hostage and using her as a sex slave while Rick was in a coma. He didn't even put matters as your average jerk of a teenager at a local makeout spot might to his date. (Ie: "Put out, or Get out!") Lori reciprocated Shane's interest in her wholeheartedly. To the point that when Shane laid eyes on Rick's ring and the locket with the family picture in it that she was wearing, Lori quickly and unhesitatingly takes it/them from around her neck and lays them in the dirt while she gets it on w/ Shane like a couple of horny teenagers.

Whatever possible motivations on Lori's part for becoming involved with Shane, Shane was right in saying this last episode that it WAS REAL. Lori wasn't just laying back and thinking of England to secure a protector for herself and Carl. The easy, even relaxed way that she smiled and kidded around with Shane and Carl was the very picture of a viable family unit forming. Then Rick comes back and Lori instantly demands that Shane bear all the burden for her "mistake" and even goes so far as to try and prevent Shane from interacting with Carl as both Shane and Carl had become accustomed to. According to Lori, Shane's supposed to assume 100% of the responsibility for what happened, and even fill the role of Villain for her so she can walk away from the situation guilt-free.

Love the Lori character or hate her, but you MUST ADMIT that she's done NOTHING to make it easier for Shane to do what she wants him to do. Instead, high up on her cross, Lori looks down on the man who's saved her life and her son's life at LEAST 4 times! Just recriminations about "lying to her about Rick." (Whereas Shane genuinely couldn't detect either pulse or respiration by the comatose Rick, and with the sudden power failure and the chaos engulfing the hospital Shane had no access to either working medical devices or anyone medically trained.) Lori flat-out IGNORES Shane each time he's repeatedly stated his reasoning for acting as he had, and making the decisions he made. Why? Because she has no counter-argument to practical statements such as "I thought he was DEAD Lori! What was I supposed to do, wheel his bed IVs and all out of a hospital filled with soldiers shooting every living person in a hospital bed, while avoiding the Walkers AND get you and Carl somewhere safe!" Lori even admits she wouldn't have left if there was the slightest chance Rick was still alive. She KNOWS that Shane really believes he did what he thought Rick would've wanted Shane to do under the circumstances, but none of that matters to her.

I just don't see any reasonable way to justify Lori's actions in doing her utmost to goad Rick into KILLING SHANE. 1) Lori was perfectly happy to use Shane for hers and Carl's benefit for quite some time. Even though that meant that Shane would be putting himself in grave danger of suffering a truly terrible death. 2) Lori has completely disregarded everything Shane did to keep the group of survivors organized and pulling together for the common good LONG BEFORE Rick showed up. Just as she disregards all the times that Shane saved hers and Carl's lives, even AFTER she'd brutally rejected him and declared he was nothing to her and needed to stay away from her family. 3) Lori wants the benefit of Shane making tough calls and doing dirty jobs to keep her and/or Carl safe, but she insists upon the right to demonize Shane even as she avails herself of his assistance and protection. 4) Finally, after all this, Lori is pushing Rick to KILL Shane! Well isn't that a neat and tidy way of once again letting the big strong man clean up her mess while she walks away smelling like a rose?

If that isn't ingratitude, epically self-serving, manipulative, morally irresponsible and even EVIL, I have no idea what these words mean. My hat's off to the actress that portrays Lori, just as I doff my cap to the men portraying Dale and Shane. All three of them are great acting talents, with a keen understanding of depicting the moral failings their characters have fallen prey to.

Lastly, I think (though I may well change my opinion as time and more episodes go by) that it might do the show its greatest service if they deviated SHARPLY from the long-term roster from the comics. I would be fascinated to watch this group of personalities struggle with the fallout of, Rick's sudden and violent death, for example. Maybe it's because I have no experience with the comics, but to me Rick isn't nearly as interesting as Shane, and has done nothing to merit being the leader of the group. All he does is make bad decisions for moral reasons and get people killed. The story would be infinitely less appealing to me if Rick loses the main challenger to his "throne."

Edit to Thorn: You seem to have COMPLETELY misapplied my point. Nothing I said had ANYTHING TO DO WITH the raiders Rick and Co. (rightfully) gunned down. My comments about the group's hypocrisy were directed towards how Lori demonizes Shane while she enjoys the benefits of his actions, how Dale lies and manipulates to achieve his desired end but crucifies Shane for doing likewise, and how the group as a whole can be stating one day earlier en masse that one Shane did at the barn was necessary/justified, but one DAY later in TWD-chronology they're using the SAME EVENT (the barn) as rationale for labeling Shane everything from loose cannon, to danger to the group, to murderer. Bottom line, I was speaking of in-group interactions. NOT the raiders who got what they deserved (other than the trademark Rick-mess of a bad decision for "moral" reasons in bringing the raider-teen back with them.)

[erisi236]

Out of everything, the one thing that really grinds my gears about Lori is how many times she yo-yo'd Shane on how to act around Carl.

Kind of hard to play the game when you change the rules every five minutes ya bitch, heh.

[Thorn]

re: Last edited by Wyldwraith; 2 Hours Ago at 04:22 PM. Reason: Correcting Thorn Being Wrong-Nth

Clever edit title, I was sure in this thread it was mentioned specifically that Rick and crew went looking for help at Hershel's farm and the CDC and yet would not return the same kindness to the group in the bar from Philly, that was what I was addressing not sure where I read that but if I somehow imagined it or misapplied it to you that is on me. Generally though I am pretty good about not hallucinating things so not sure where that post is.

"My bad".

[acealive1]

did anyone laugh when the guy fell off the roof onto the fence? in itself it wasnt funny but his yelling and the way his friends left him were

-- -------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------




Things I liked
1- Windshield zombie was amazing, his selfless pursuit to get to his meal as the glass ripped the very skin and flesh off of his head was brilliantly done and perfectly scary and intense.





that window zombie screamed nicotero just like the scene from land with the fingernails

[ProfessorChaos]

re: Last edited by Wyldwraith; 2 Hours Ago at 04:22 PM. Reason: Correcting Thorn Being Wrong-Nth

"My bad".

don't worry, not everyone takes everything so personally and with such sincerity....

-- -------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------


I don't know, Wyld, I find everyone brings their personal baggage to the table in these sorts of character evaluations.

truth.

that is almost signature-worthy.

[toxic]

I don't think any of the characters are evil. Or even really jerks, really.

Dale has a lot of valid points about Shane. He did nearly murder Rick at one point, he did shoot Otis. What's he supposed to do? Get in a fistfight with a guy 30 years younger than he is? And he's right--- Shane is dangerous. And you can hardly blame him for being a bit paranoid about Shane after the conversations he's had with Shane.

Shane is the voice of reason. Shane is right; he saves the group. He is the one with the best plans. He's the realist. He's also been tossed aside by the woman he loves b/c Rick reappeared. That is slowly driving him crazy. Sure, he shot Otis. But they'd both be dead if he hadn't. And so would Carl. Shane clearly doesn't like what he has become, but he's confronted with being the only guy in the group who is willing to accept the responsibility of protecting people and surviving in a very violent and dangerous world. That's what drives him so nuts about Herschel; Herschel is refusing to see reality. That is the only crime for Shane.

Rick keeps the group sane and human, but he does it by making objectively foolish decisions because his Sunday school teacher would have approved. That's laudable in a lot of ways, but he's also risking the lives of the group to satisfy his morality. It's also somewhat hypocritical; Rick woke up after it was all over. If he'd lived through what Shane lived through he might have had the morals beaten out of him by reality. Instead he wakes up and starts tilting at windmills. Probably as many people have died because of his morality as he's saved.

That's the beauty of the show.

[Eat Flesh]

For me this show just keeps getting better and better. Totally stoked about the the last couple episodes. Loved the nose / lip munching scene and what a look from Rick at the end of the episode.

[Neil]

For me this show just keeps getting better and better. Totally stoked about the the last couple episodes. Loved the nose / lip munching scene and what a look from Rick at the end of the episode.

Yep, cracking episode IMHO.

Not sure why Lori decided (after her car crash) to wonder off in the 'wrong' direction? You'd think being injured and without a car, her first priority would be to get back to the farm and safety. But I guess that's no more dumb that her actions in the previous episode of just driving off alone and crashing the vehicle etc :)

Love her final summary of Shane :)

[Thorn]

did anyone laugh when the guy fell off the roof onto the fence? in itself it wasnt funny but his yelling and the way his friends left him were

-- -------- Post added at 07:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:28 PM ----------






that window zombie screamed nicotero just like the scene from land with the fingernails

It really did, I had friends who are not as passionate about the genre as us coming up to me and saying how that scene had an affect on them after watching it, or remarking on ho good the FX was. Such classic Nicotero, and amazing to see how far he has come in the industry.

-- -------- Post added at 08:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 AM ----------


don't worry, not everyone takes everything so personally and with such sincerity....

-- -------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------



truth.

that is almost signature-worthy.


Agreed and agreed.

That is an amazing quote and it just speaks directly to the heart of a lot of fan debates.

[rgc2005]

One thing I have noticed is the fact that Rick, and now Hershel, are growing as a post-walker survivors while Shane and the rest of the group is still operating in survival mode. Next week we get the scene where Rick baits and stabs the cop-walker in the eye at the fence after stopping Shane from shooting. Last season, in an exactly the same scenario, Rick shot a cop-walker at the fence after Morgan warned him about the noise.
Character Growth since season #1:
Rick and Hershel are actively adapting to the new paradigms.
T-Dog, Glen, Maggie and Carl are beginning to change.
Daryl and Andrea are on tipping points swinging back and forth.
Lori, Shane, Carol and Dale are stuck in the old world and playing by those rules.

[Thorn]

Yep, cracking episode IMHO.

Not sure why Lori decided (after her car crash) to wonder off in the 'wrong' direction? You'd think being injured and without a car, her first priority would be to get back to the farm and safety. But I guess that's no more dumb that her actions in the previous episode of just driving off alone and crashing the vehicle etc :)

Love her final summary of Shane :)

Could not agree more on these points, the lit of them. I wondered what would possessing her injured and alone with limited ammo to wander towards town... Maybe she was closer to it than the farm ? Her Lady Macbeth routine on Rick was amazing to see and loved how she is stepping up as more than den mother to a mover and a shaker.

-- -------- Post added at 07:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 AM ----------


I don't think any of the characters are evil. Or even really jerks, really.

Dale has a lot of valid points about Shane. He did nearly murder Rick at one point, he did shoot Otis. What's he supposed to do? Get in a fistfight with a guy 30 years younger than he is? And he's right--- Shane is dangerous. And you can hardly blame him for being a bit paranoid about Shane after the conversations he's had with Shane.

Shane is the voice of reason. Shane is right; he saves the group. He is the one with the best plans. He's the realist. He's also been tossed aside by the woman he loves b/c Rick reappeared. That is slowly driving him crazy. Sure, he shot Otis. But they'd both be dead if he hadn't. And so would Carl. Shane clearly doesn't like what he has become, but he's confronted with being the only guy in the group who is willing to accept the responsibility of protecting people and surviving in a very violent and dangerous world. That's what drives him so nuts about Herschel; Herschel is refusing to see reality. That is the only crime for Shane.

Rick keeps the group sane and human, but he does it by making objectively foolish decisions because his Sunday school teacher would have approved. That's laudable in a lot of ways, but he's also risking the lives of the group to satisfy his morality. It's also somewhat hypocritical; Rick woke up after it was all over. If he'd lived through what Shane lived through he might have had the morals beaten out of him by reality. Instead he wakes up and starts tilting at windmills. Probably as many people have died because of his morality as he's saved.

That's the beauty of the show.

Very interesting pointsbmany of which I had not given a lotion credit to before, I feel your framingbofvyour points presented them in a way that really allowed me to consider them in earnest. Well done.

[krisvds]

I don't think any of the characters are evil. Or even really jerks, really.


That's the beauty of the show.

I agree; been saying it myself in between the rick -shane polarisation going on over here and elsewhere (and the Dale bashing); TWD is at its best when the characters are as morally amibiguous as possible. There are no cookie cutter good and bad guys in their world, just a lot of miscommunication and people not being able to see another point of view than their own;
a bit like the internet really ;)
Anyway; to me it's the Romero school of zombie writing; the characters have more to fear from their fellow humans than the actual zombies.


Solid episode with some really good suspense scenes and some fine acting. Loved it.
Shane's slow descent is a thing to behold; the guy playing him may not be the best actor in the world but in these final few episodes he's doing a fine job.
The guy might have made some right calls (clearing the barn, ...) it's his motivations that are questionable. Keeping the group together? He has a hard time keeping himself together. Can't wait for the inevitable explosion of violence and judging from that sneek peek at next weeks episode we might not have to wait that long.

Also; I hope they keep Herschel on as long as possible; that's one great actor. The scenes in the bar are among the finest in the series.
@ Bass: Yeah, that wole bar scene had classic western written all over it. Hersch reluctantly picking up his six shooter,... Fantastic. A bit 'Unforgiven'
Part two is of to a rocking start and we may have to give this Mazzara more credit than we thought.

[Publius]

He didn't even put matters as your average jerk of a teenager at a local makeout spot might to his date. (Ie: "Put out, or Get out!")

I think Shane went considerably beyond "average jerk of a teenager" stage when he nearly raped Lori at the CDC. I think that incident played a big role in shaping Lori's view of Shane. I agree with toxic, though, none of the characters are pure good or pure evil, they're all deeply flawed in their own ways.

[Thorn]

I think Shane went considerably beyond "average jerk of a teenager" stage when he nearly raped Lori at the CDC. I think that incident played a big role in shaping Lori's view of Shane. I agree with toxic, though, none of the characters are pure good or pure evil, they're all deeply flawed in their own ways.

Agreed, and I am sorry I was a teenager I never did this to anyone and I am hard pressed to think of anyone in my school who did and if we did get wind of it we would have dealt with it in house.

I also agree that the characters are all flawed and this is by design of course, and they make for interesting characters to follow and watch develop over time. We as humans are all flawed so it is in my mind much more interesting to watch characters who are like me... imperfect beings. It is why Superman comics never once appealed to me as a kid. Dude was too perfect, had one weakness... did EVERYTHING perfect all the time. Screw that guy, imagine hanging out with him, good luck getting chicks.

Maybe the headcases who didn't think they deserved a super guy ;)

[blind2d]

Agreed with all points above. Stand-out episode, and great plot unraveling. Loved the windshield zombie, of course. I wonder what'll happen with fence-leg... I still am wary of Shane. I can see why y'all might think that maybe he's not the 'bad guy', but... I'm not so sure. Glenn totally blew it with um, what's-her-name though. I mean, he's a kid and inexperienced, but geez... I kinda wanted to shake him and yell in his face a little.
But yeah, loving how everyone is flawed and has their own issues and everything. That's really great and reminds me of Friendship is Magic a bit.
I'm gonna miss Sophia, and it was dumb of Carl to want to name the baby after her. Dumb kid, that's not what we do. I mean, yes we remember those who are gone, but I believe a new person should be a new person, right? What do you lot think?

[EvilNed]

I don't know, I just want them to man (or woman) the fuck up and shoot Shane in the face. He's clearly a danger to them all. It's annoying how only Dale sees it.

[paranoid101]

Great episode At the start of it I was saying pick up the dead guys guns for godsake and to my shock they did lol, doesn't normally happen in TV show films etc.

[MinionZombie]

Sweet-arse episode last night!

1) The zombie forcing its head through the broken windshield was awesome - it's slicing it's own face off and it doesn't care. It just wants Lori.

2) Perhaps Lori was 'dazed & confused' after the accident, or perhaps Shane had driven in a different direction, or who knows regarding the direction she was walking in.

3) The little white lie to Lori that finally makes her think otherwise of Shane was nifty - indeed the end sequence where Lori is talking to Rick about Shane, and you can see Rick's thought process getting darker and darker ... the inevitable smackdown is-a-coming-folks!

4) Like Paranoid, I was glad to see them pick up the guns of the two guys in the bar.

5) The whole first 20 minutes of the episode rocked - excellent action, nice tension, and the kid getting his leg skewered on that fence as the zombies close in was kick arse. I did think to myself immediately "why not just yank it off in the opposite direction?" - but you do have to build some tension before you get to that point, so fair enough - so when they did I chuckled darkly. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.

6) Nice little touch with Daryl ousting himself from the group, but then coming back in nearer the end of the episode.

7) Dale's reaction to Lori saying they hadn't given Carl "the talk" was hilarious. :D

8) Herschel was badass in this episode - they handled the transition from one version of his character to another very deftly in the last episode in the bar, so it was good to see him taking some names.

9) Speaking of which - zombie biting that guy's nose off - noiiice.

10) The other group leaving the kid behind was a nice touch to separate, in a very simple but effective way, the distinct difference in the moral code of our group and the other group we've just been introduced to.

11) Some nice character beats - such as Glenn's reaction to the whole ordeal at the barn, his growing affection for Maggie etc, as well as beginning to see Shane losing his grip (and him damn well knowing it too). Mmm - thar be some tasty meat on these here thematic bones. :)

So yeah - judging by the previews of the next episode on FXUK, and on AMC (having seen both, personally), it looks like the next episode is going to be spiffing too - seeing more of the outside world, some nice little vignettes that show the aftermath of what went before etc ... yeah, very much looking forward to the following episodes.

[Wyldwraith]

About Lori @ Shane at the CDC:
There's simply NO DENYING what Shane did at the CDC was completely unacceptable. That said, I believe it to be a bridge too far to leap to this event as the core reason for Lori turning so completely against Shane as to be actively advocating and seeking to manipulate her husband into KILLING Shane. Even if Shane HAD savagely raped Lori, what Lori is advocating isn't calling Shane to account for his wrongs. She wants Rick to take him out before Shane has clue one what's going down.

Many things are open to interpretation in TWD (something we all love), but I feel its safe to say that Dale & Lori both are seeking the most expedient, NOT the most JUST outcome regarding Shane. If they were, they'd be talking about getting the group united about forcing him out of the group. They aren't doing that because they know that Shane has at least one unwavering supporter (Andrea), and that Daryl and Glenn aren't likely to back such an action currently. Of course its debatable who would support what, but the base concept, Ie: The group being too divided over Shane for a united front/consensus about him to be achieved is essentially sound.

Much as Dale is the guy I love to hate, I'll admit that Dale has far, FAR more justifiable reason to be advocating action against Shane. Lori is seeking the tidiest, easiest clean-up of a mess she contributed to making with Shane. (And you can't tell me that Lori staying stuff like "The baby won't be yours even if its yours Shane, and there's nothing you can do about it!" doesn't contribute to the escalation of tensions regarding Shane). Or, more simply, I genuinely believe if Rick's ticket got punched by a Walker the day after she had her quiet little Lady Macbeth moment with Rick, inside of a week Lori would completely flip-flop AGAIN regarding Shane.)

Certainly the most interesting feature of the show is the constantly shifting web of tensions, ill-will, passion, loyalty, virtue and evil amongst the survivors. TWD gets it right about using the zombies as an effective external apocalyptic pressure on a human collective, whereas Romero has strayed from that mark so far this decade that Resident Evil: Extinction beats the best elements of Land, Diary and Survival combined).

I'm very, very interested to see what happens next. If Rick is going to hold true to his relatively inflexible moral code when the issue is inside the group, or if he's going to "Shane it up." What's going to happen with Glenn going forward from here, same going for Daryl and Andrea.

This coming episode should really tell the tale when it comes to how the group's moral code is going to form. The meat in our debate-wich as it were.

[Publius]

About Lori @ Shane at the CDC:
Even if Shane HAD savagely raped Lori, what Lori is advocating isn't calling Shane to account for his wrongs. She wants Rick to take him out before Shane has clue one what's going down.


Which, interestingly, is exactly how Shane would deal with an equivalent situation. Don't agonize over it, don't talk it out, just eliminate the problem. The big difference being that if Lori were a female Shane, she'd take Shane out herself instead of persuading Rick that it needs to be done.

[Wyldwraith]

@Publius:
A fair point, but you can't have it both ways. If Shane deserves to die for doing the things he's done, then its equally evil if someone else adopts the same Expedience > Morality mindset. What's completely missing is Lori's share of the culpability in creating the problem with Shane. Yes, Lori had every reason to believe Rick was dead. Yes, Lori was trying to adapt and move forward under terrible circumstances for Carl's sake and her own. All of which is perfectly understandable given the situation.

Where Lori goes horribly completely wrong is her handling of the situation from the moment she lays eyes on Rick. Whatever Lori felt for Shane and however she saw him, Lori KNEW that SHANE felt something quite serious and very genuine for her and Carl. Unwilling or unable to face up to and own the guilt and shame she was feeling for having given up on Rick and started moving on with Shane, Lori has rewritten history to make Shane responsible for HER choices. She can scream and denigrate Shane all she wants for telling her Rick was dead to stop her from throwing away her life and the life of her son, but no matter how hard she tries to make Shane responsible for HER DECISION to become involved with him, it will never be anyone's responsibility but her own.

If that's where it ended, all well and good. But Lori has done just about everything she can to make it harder on Shane. It means less than nothing to Lori that the only reason she's alive to bitch about Shane are all those times he's put himself in harm's way to save hers and Carl's lives. Forget that Shane volunteered for the most dangerous mission yet carried out by TWD survivors in order to save Carl's life, Lori accepts Carl's life as her due and would see Shane put down like a dog for making a terrible split-second decision in a situation so horrible Lori can't even imagine it. Forget that while Rick was off "tilting at windmills" as someone so aptly phrased it, Shane was the one fighting to keep her and her son alive when so many others died when the camp was attacked.

Hell, judging by how short the interval was between Shane busting the barn open and the Walkers spilling out, Rick and Herschel both would have certainly bitten and probably killed while trying to push that pair of Walkers into the barn, unhook them from the catch-poles and shut the barn.

As crazy as all the in-group Shane-hating is, the endless # of free passes Rick gets for causing disaster simply because "his heart was in the right place" is mind-boggling. Maybe it's my lack of knowledge from not having read the comics, but I still can't understand how Rick just showed up (putting numerous lives in danger from moment one of meeting the group during S1-E2 "Guts") swooped in and took command of the group to the point Rick can justify making Shane believe he'd been abandoned to the Walkers just so Rick could try and assert his dominance. (If in fact that was Rick's motivation. I tend to believe he decided to abandon Shane and simply didn't have the stomach to follow through, so he tried playing it off like coming back and making a point of his authority was his intent all along. Had SHANE done that, the consensus here would certainly be he was trying to kill Rick.)

The conflict and tension between group members makes for compelling drama, but I'd like to see the same individuals apply the same moral standards from episode to episode. I'd REALLY like to see Andrea call Lori out for constantly pushing Shane's buttons and then demonizing him when he reacts negatively to her self-serving machinations.

It'll certainly be interesting to see what happens. I just wish I could understand how many of my fellow viewers here draw such completely different conclusions from the same subject matter as I'm watching.