Contains Spoilers! TWD 2x10 "18 Miles Out" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN** [Archive]

Wyldwraith

27-Feb-2012, 05:45 AM

Rick and Shane are even.
Rick was a hair away from abandoning Shane to the Walkers, but just as Shane did when he had Rick in his crosshairs Rick pulled himself back from the brink at the last moment. Rick's motivation for fighting Shane was wanting time to think about Randall's fate instead of killing him then and there, but in the previews for next week's episode Rick is seen doing everything from making a noose to arguing Randall needs to die for the group to feel safe.

Maybe it's because the comics are so well-loved by many of the people here, but I just don't get how people fail to recognize they have two completely opposing views when Rick or one of the other "goody-goodies" does something immoral or when the Shane dubbed the wearer of the black hat, or Andrea do almost exactly the same thing. Rick as the self-appointed leader of the group is demanding obedience from Shane in every respect, but when Shane did the same thing while in charge its some nefarious act.

I really like that they're beginning to make Rick more flexible morally speaking, but the farm and the group's current status quo are beginning to feel stifling. Season 2's theme so far has been all about double-standards and the conflict between expedience and morality, and that's great so far as it goes. However, Rick and Lori are growing increasingly intolerant of any disagreement with their wishes and as yet the writers have given us every reason to believe Rick has been a completely ineffective leader who's only now beginning to conduct himself pragmatically, but no solid reason as to how and why Rick became the unquestioned leader of the group with Lori as his "first lady" in Carol's words. Without a concrete reason why the group continually glosses over any mistakes made by Rick so long as he's doing what he believes to be moral, it's begun to feel like Writer's Fiat concerning Rick.

I was hoping for more this episode, but this was the first episode of Season 2 I didn't like AT ALL. Even if one contends that Rick never intended to leave Shane behind, and was only letting him sweat it out for a couple of minutes pre-rescue, that would mean that Rick has resorted to brutal coercion.

I just want to see less yes-person behavior from the bulk of the group and more characters thinking critically about everything that's happened. T-Dog, Glenn, Daryl and Carol all need to stop following the path of least resistance and begin expressing themselves significantly and come down on Rick's, Shane's or neither side. As it stands this is one area where the plot is too cut-and-dried. Lori & Dale anti-Shane, Andrea and Carl pro-Shane, while everyone else is allowing the situation to continue escalating due to their refusal to examine the issues at hand and decide how they feel about the significant actions that are taken. If we have to deal with Macbeth-meets-highschool-drama, we need more voices being heard and more character development from every character but Rick, Shane, Dale and Lori. Andrea is getting there, and Glenn still has both his moments and his great potential, but as it stands nothing is really moving Glenn forward.

On another note, the stabbing of zombies in the head and through the fence looked very cool even if it seemed a bit less realistic than one might hope. Stabbing into the crown of the skull would be the most difficult way to breach the brain with a knife, and the thickness of the bone plus the two tough layers beneath the bone of the skull leaves a great deal of potential to end up with a knife you can't extract from the skull it's lodged in.

All in all I'm still quite interested to see where this Season ends up, but I'm hoping the interactions between group members are shifted away from the highschool-ish and into a more believable mixture of opposing perspectives...and I hope that the writers will at least find a way to work in "the reveal" as everyone realizes they're doing the very same thing as those they condemn for the same behavior.

Cykotic

27-Feb-2012, 06:47 AM

Best kills of the series so far in my opinion. I thought rick was gonna leave him on the bus there for a moment but, I guess not.

Also, what do you think the significance of the lone zombie in the field is... Am I thinking too much into it or does it symbolize the fact that Shane (in his mind) is alone in this world.... much like the walker in the field?

Why am I being philosophical at 06:47 in the morning?

(Also, I think stabbing a walker in the skull would be somewhat easy due to the decomposition... just saying)

Publius

27-Feb-2012, 10:36 AM

The discussion about the apparent lack of bite marks on the corpses of the security guards, culminating in Shane trying to persuade himself that they must have been scratched, seems like another big hint that everyone rises after death. Shane seemed obviously disturbed, like part of him is already afraid that that might be the case. Rick's quickness at suggesting that the guards had been scratched could fit with the theory that Jenner told him that everyone is infected, but Rick doesn't want to give that away yet.

clanglee

27-Feb-2012, 10:45 AM

Loved this episode.. my favorite of this season by far. Really good stuff. I believe Rick really was planning on leaving Shane until he saw the two dead cops laying side by side, and remembered their past relationship. Great action in this episode, and they broke it up with just enough dialogue for this to be the most entrancing episode thus far.

MikePizzoff

27-Feb-2012, 10:58 AM

Hands down the best episode of this whole series, thus far. So much intensity, not only on Rick/Shane's end, but also back at the farm. Great stuff. I like that Rick has become so badass that he can say that shit to Shane, then hand him a gun, and turn his back on him (physically, not metaphorically) with no care.

I have been waiting a bit for them to say something about scratches infecting... I could swear that there was a quick part a few episodes back with someone being scratched and then was shady about it. Maybe during the whole barn fiasco? I suppose they would have turned by now, though, so that theory is kind of out the window...

Also, I thought they were definitely foreshadowing to an eminent zombie attack on the farm, with the zombies shambling out after the car after they escape the compound.

How many episodes are left? 2? 3?

krisvds

27-Feb-2012, 01:14 PM

Maybe it's because the comics are so well-loved by many of the people here, but I just don't get how people fail to recognize they have two completely opposing views when Rick or one of the other "goody-goodies" does something immoral or when the Shane dubbed the wearer of the black hat, or Andrea do almost exactly the same thing. Rick as the self-appointed leader of the group is demanding obedience from Shane in every respect, but when Shane did the same thing while in charge its some nefarious act.

i guess you are seeing these characters a bit too black and white? Rick is never, just a good guy; not in the comics, not on tv. He's more complex than that and one of the reasons TWD is so well loved...

kidgloves

27-Feb-2012, 01:27 PM

3 episodes left.
The tension in these last 3 episodes is a very noticeable change from the earlier ones. Bit that got me is when they arrived at that truck stop/school and were looking around all you could hear was the wind howling. That sort of thing really gives me the creeps. No jump scares needed.
Looks like Mazarra knows what he's doing and the writers are getting a grip on the universe of TWD.

Excellent episode.

Ultra Magnus

27-Feb-2012, 02:02 PM

Shit just got real! The next 3 episodes will be epic! Can't wait til next week's episode!

erisi236

27-Feb-2012, 02:28 PM

For whatever reason my fav part of the whole episode was when Shane was trapped in the bus and off'd the first ghoul. He gave this just really funny kind of insane laugh, "ahaha oh shit!", something about that tickled my fancy.

AcesandEights

27-Feb-2012, 02:35 PM

Rick and Shane are even.
Rick was a hair away from abandoning Shane to the Walkers, but just as Shane did when he had Rick in his crosshairs Rick pulled himself back from the brink at the last moment.

You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely.

kidgloves

27-Feb-2012, 02:53 PM

What about the zombie stack then? And the gun through the zombies skull to shoot another one. We've had that sort of effect in Diary but its great to it see again. Zombie head squash via the car was nice. I don't really need the gore to enjoy the genre but this sort of stuff is very welcome at times and it sounds like the writers are pitching in with suggestions for gags.
Looks like we are heading into anarchy by the previews for next week.
Can't wait.

babomb

27-Feb-2012, 04:15 PM

The thing about Rick almost leaving Shane is that there was no real evidence that he even actually considered that. That's speculation in the mind of the viewer. He hurried away but it could've been because he was hatching the plan to rescue him, with the vehicle just like he did.
After Shane stabbed the walker in the head on the bus, I immediately thought he was gonna lose that knife! That's a job for a nice long gimlet...
https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQUPyP4A79b1uqRpnwg9CPLg-6AXkWtak4ctRjoQl3RQLL6yfDvtA
In my mind I started seeing Shane systematically kill every walker outside the bus using that method. It's possible, and if anyone could do it it would be Shane. Then walk all the way back to the farm and do the same to Rick.

AcesandEights

27-Feb-2012, 04:31 PM

The thing about Rick almost leaving Shane is that there was no real evidence that he even actually considered that. That's speculation in the mind of the viewer.

Though it's debatable that Rick never considered leaving Shane, the whole scene of Rick lingering over the two downed walker cops lain out next to one another is pretty clearly meant to evoke his consideration of his relation, partnership and tied destiny with Shane.

Just by going by the methods the scene is put together, it seems pretty clear the intent is to convey that it was a possibility in Rick's mind, to one degree or another, to leave Shane to his fate. No doubt it was a very well conceived and directed part of the episode...almost certainly the most pivotal aspect of the episode.

Thorn

27-Feb-2012, 06:39 PM

You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely.

Not only a reach or a stretch you are reading your perception into the characters motivation, he may have who knows. I watched it and I thought, there is no way Rick is leaving Shane, he is going to regroup and set something up. Then they had him linger over the corpses of the guys in uniform and it entered my mind he may have been considering leaving Shane all along. Though maybe he was just considering their past relationship and how far it has gone... how "dead" their friendship was.

We just don't know, either is plausible and since Shane screwed his wife, and was working against him actively, and tried to kill him with a giant wrench... I think he would have been justified.

Moon Knight

27-Feb-2012, 08:38 PM

I agree that this show is just getting better as better. Shane must have been pretty humiliated getting rescued by Rick and giving in to Rick's way of handeling things. At first I though that Shane might be coming down to earth and maybe would be willing to work with Rick on decision making but judging by the preview trailer things only get worse in Shane's mind. Loved the scene when Rick paused to view the two cops corpses. Yes, I believe he was ready to leave Shane until he stared at the two dead walkers. Also, the ending conversation mirroring the original conversation with this time all that action and danger in between was awesome. The lone walker bit was creepy as hell too. Loved it.

acealive1

27-Feb-2012, 08:43 PM

if any doubt remained about shane being off the deep end, its officially gone now. he saw a walker in the field..........TWICE and didnt say shit about it. that just gives me the creeps. but it seems like he dummies up when his life is at stake (i.e. he saw rick leaving the bus area)

AcesandEights

27-Feb-2012, 08:48 PM

i also particularly loved the shot of the lone walker shambling through the field, that was eerie...probably one of the most cinematic shots i've seen in a living-dead film/show. and then they went ahead and ended the episode with that same haunting image.

The lone walker bit was creepy as hell too. Loved it.

Yeah, I have to agree. That scene paralleling the lone forlorn zombie and Shane uncomfortably sitting in the car and wondering just what is going through his head was great and eery as hell, even more so when they come back around to the same zombie again at the end of the episode.

What about the zombie stack then? And the gun through the zombies skull to shoot another one.

I kinda thought it was badass and appropriate to the situation...thankfully he did it with multiple shots, otherwise the believability factor would have annoyed me. As those zombies piled on top of Rick, I just kept thinking "Okay Dave Navarro, here you go..." :rolleyes:

This one was great, but I really hope they don't do a gag kill a week, though...

kidgloves

27-Feb-2012, 09:30 PM

I think when Shane was looking at that lone zombie he was thinking "thats me. Nobody understands my way of thinking and im all alone". So he has more in common with the things he wants to kill than he realises. After all they are us. Its this sort of small detail open to interpretation that i love and fills me with confidence about where this show is heading.

Wyldwraith

27-Feb-2012, 11:06 PM

First:
I've re-watched that scene four times now, and I feel 100% confident in saying that Shane threw the wrench in Rick's direction as a matter of pique, NOT trying to hit him. The throw was much too high and wide for an intent to hit (at least IMO).

Second: Go back and listen to Rick's tone when he barks "Let's GO!" at Randall then bolts for the car. There's at LEAST as much reason to believe Rick intended to abandon Shane as to believe Rick was planning to rescue him all along even before one considers the symbolism of Rick looking at the two dead Walker-cops. After that shot, I think it's pretty clear that post-rescue the subtext of Rick's demands for Shane's obedience was "Obey or next time I make sure you die." Rick was HERSCHEL-LEVEL totalitarian in his demand for Shane's obedience. The whole "My say" thing was EXTREMELY reminiscent of Herschel when the old coot is demanding his authority be acknowledged on his farm.

Not that I have a problem with Rick and Shane having it out directly over leadership of the group. Shane is by far the more qualified leader, and Rick usurped his authority in the first place. If the otherwise kindest, most decent, honest and loyal guy on the planet was demanding the final word and the right to make decisions that effect whether I live or die I'd rather die fighting than submit like that. It would be downright thrilling to see Rick and Shane shoot it out over control of the group.

I'll freely admit that (like everyone else) I bring my own biases to any interpretations of less than perfectly clear-cut social actions. I'm a strong believer that results trump intent 100% of the time, that leadership should go to the most capable not the most charismatic. (Incidentally, if you look at history the majority of leaders who managed to advance themselves via charisma rather than effective leadership ability TEND to be individuals who believe in unilateral authority...so long as its THEIR unilateral authority. On the small scale you have deeply troubled individuals like Charles Manson, The "Reverend" Jim Jones, David Koresh, Rod Ferral etc. While on the large scale you have Napoleon, Richleu (sp?), Robespierre, Emperors Octavian & Claudius, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong(sp?) The rogues gallery of the infamous who wielded significantly more charisma than actual leadership is legion.)

I believe in brutal honesty, tact = weakness/dishonesty, the necessity of earning the right to lead via demonstrable successes and that loyalty is something you earn not demand.

So I DO empathize deeply with the Shane character. Shane consistently makes better calls, but as Andrea told him "Your presentation leaves something to be desired." By the same token, I've had extensive experience with manipulative women who make a mess of things and then rewrites history so someone else either has to clean up said mess or take the fall for it. Lori could, if she was so inclined, completely clean up the fallout of her history with Shane simply by accepting responsibility for her mistakes and ceasing to actively taunt a man who's been through the ringer because of her.

Of course TWD is a world/setting of various moral shades of gray rather than black and white, but (and this is just my opinion) I feel there's a tendency amongst many of our compatriots here to want things to adhere as closely to the comics as is feasible in the television medium. That's cool and all, but the way things happen in the comic is not by any means automatically the "right way" for events and character interactions to transpire in our beloved TV show.

I mean HONESTLY, does NO ONE ELSE perceive a baseline bias to the positive regarding discussion of the Rick character and a baseline bias to the negative regarding the Shane character?

Finally, like everyone else, this last episode has left me dying to see how things finally shake out within the group. Especially now that the Rick VS Shane conflict of group ideology has moved from the "social cold war" to a hot one. I just find myself having a genuine and visceral emotional reaction on the one hand to Shane & Andrea, and on the other to Rick, Dale and Lori. That's awesome IMO, even if its a profoundly different outlook than many of my fellows here, because it makes for animated, intelligent debate of the issues TWD raises.

Legion2213

28-Feb-2012, 01:55 AM

For me, this was the best episode of TWD to date, I really loved this one, so many cool things, Rick being piled on, the lone walker rambling through the feilds, the unbitten cops, the desperate battle at the utility works, Shane's little brush with losing it when he was trapped on the bus, Rick pulling the walker on top of him ala Daryl...just epic

2nd half of this season has been absolute TV gold...with the latest ep being a diamond to top it off.

shootemindehead

28-Feb-2012, 01:58 AM

You're reaching and doing so with horrible comparisons. Shane had just barely missed caving his skull in with a monkey wrench, and released (yet another) torrent of zombies...different circumstances entirely.

Agreed. Shane's unstable agression nearly ending up offing another one of the group (although technically Otis wasn't part of the group as such) and damn near got three people (himself included) killed.

And how the hell is Rick and Shane "even". Rick returned for Shane. There was no real indication that he was ever "abandoning Shane to the walkers".

Shane would probably have just killed the young fella and left Rick to his fate.

Legion2213

28-Feb-2012, 01:59 AM

This one was great, but I really hope they don't do a gag kill a week, though...

Have to say, I didn't see this as a gag-kill...more a invention of necessity.

AnxietyDilemma

28-Feb-2012, 06:56 AM

First:
I've re-watched that scene four times now, and I feel 100% confident in saying that Shane threw the wrench in Rick's direction as a matter of pique, NOT trying to hit him. The throw was much too high and wide for an intent to hit (at least IMO).

It was twirling directly at his head with considerable velocity following a heated confrontation, and he growled like an animal as he heaved it. Dare I bring up the moment where he dropped the motorcycle on Rick's leg? It was a little more than fisticuffs between bickering friends. Neither one of them backed off like "Whoa, what the hell are you doing?", everything that has built up to this point in the series culminated in that instance, they let it loose. I mean sure, Shane's objective was to shoot Randall, and Rick was trying to stop him, but it was all triggered by Shane's words and there was a lot of aggression that they took out on one another. I think that Shane absolutely tried to hit Rick with the wrench in the heat of the moment.

If Rick were a little more like Shane, Shane would be dead, so he might think that it jeopardizes the safety of the group, but it certainly has benefited him directly to this point so far.

Wyldwraith

28-Feb-2012, 06:24 PM

We can agree to disagree about the throw of the wrench. I'm with you so far as Shane being furious when he heaved the wrench in Rick's direction, but you lose me when the wrench impacts a full Rick-body-height into the window the Walkers come pouring out of. Not that I can't see why one might see the deal with the wrench differently, I just don't see it that way because as close as the two men were (to me at least) it's improbable that Shane missed hitting Rick so badly that the wrench hit a window WELL ABOVE Rick's head.

As to which man poses the greater danger, I'm convinced that it's more illuminating to compare the lives that Rick's actions have DIRECTLY endangered versus the lives that Shane's actions have DIRECTLY endangered. NEITHER MAN deserves a "pass" because on this or that occasion a twist of fate beyond their control resulted in the survival of one or more individuals they'd endangered. To that end, I offer the following comparison of the lives placed in direct jeopardy by the decisions and corresponding actions of each man.

Rick: 1) Within 48 hours of awakening to learn the world now belonged to the Walkers, Rick rides straight down a main thoroughfare of Atlanta in the hopes of reaching the Rescue Station he'd heard about from Morgan as a first step in his quest to reunite with Lori and Carl. Within five minutes of entering Atlanta proper, Rick is nearly killed and finds himself with no means of escape (under his own power) from the tank he'd taken shelter within. Escaping the tank via Glenn's altruistic assistance, Rick's many gunshots as he sprints toward his rendezvous with Glenn result in the Scavenging Party becoming trapped and besieged by the horde of Walkers Rick's gunshots and flight from drove into a frenzied focus on the trapped survivors. Subsequently Rick leaves Meryl handcuffed on the roof (reasonably enough, no argument) and succeeds in facilitating the group's escape by the narrowest of margins.

2) Rick's conscience drives him to go back for Meryl. As a result, Glenn is taken hostage because they delayed the retrieval of the guns until after they'd looked for Meryl. The tense standoff when Rick answers the Vato leader's ultimatum with a declaration of their willingness to fight it out. By chance, the extremely tense/potentially deadly standoff is averted by the arrival of the elderly woman. Had Rick & Co. gone for the guns before Meryl they would have arrived well before the Vatos dispatched to seize the Bag O' Guns.

2.1) Rick's decision to go after Meryl resulted in ALL the effective combatants except Shane being absent from the camp at the time of the Walker-attack that resulted in the deaths of Ed, Amy, Jim, two of the Latin-American men and one Latin-American woman whose names escape me. It is CERTAINLY DEBATABLE precisely who would or wouldn't have died had Rick/Daryl/T-Dog and Glenn been there at the attack's outset rather than towards the peak of the attack, but Ed and Amy were lost to surprise attacks. More eyes in camp, particularly Glenn's exacting attention to details and Daryl's high degree of situational awareness would have increased the chance of the Walkers being spotted before the surprise attacks on Ed & Amy and thereby decreased the chance either would die as they did.

3) The legacy of Rick's search for Meryl bears the last of its dark fruit when Jackie elects to die in the CDC control room with Jenner and Andrea's attempt to do likewise because of Amy's loss. Which doesn't even touch on the fact that the entire group would've died in the CDC Rick insisted on going to save that Carol had been holding onto the grenade Rick had found in the tank since discovering it before they even left camp while doing the laundry.

The situation with Sophia has too many unknown variables to even debate whose responsible for her demise.

4) Rick agreeing to do things Herschel's way and pull the Walkers out of the bog with catch-poles nearly results in the young man from Herschel's group being bitten when "Rick's Walker" lands almost atop the teen when Rick stumbles moving up the embankment from the bog. Subsequently, Rick's intent to assist Herschel in putting the pair of Walkers into the already crowded-with-Walkers barn despite the fact neither had ANY experience with what they were trying to do put Rick himself, Herschel and the teen from Herschel's group in direct danger...and would have endangered EVERYONE ELSE had they remained unarmed as Rick had directed them to remain in order to appease Herschel.

5) The short straight knife Rick gave Andrea from the bundle of edged weapons Carl found as her only means of defense, despite her vigorous protest, proved completely ineffective as a weapon of defense for a woman already at a significant reach disadvantage compared to the Walker that attacked her. Rick's logic (same as Shane and Dale on this issue) was mostly sound about limiting the guns floating around in light of the Walker-herd in the immediate area, but the blade he took for himself and the ones given to Daryl and Glenn were VASTLY superior as Walker-killing weapons compared to the knife given to Andrea. Without the miraculously well-timed intervention of Maggie, Andrea would have been undoubtedly bitten before help from the group she was with could reach her.

Shane: 1) Had Shane not used excessive force against Ed as a way to blow off steam from his argument with Lori, Ed would likely have been with the rest of the group instead of laid up in his tent recovering. Making Ed the first victim of the surprise attack.

2) (Partial and unforeseeable responsibility) Shane also bears indirect responsibility for the scavenging team becoming trapped and besieged due to Rick, because Shane refused to dispatch anyone (or allow Lori to go as she'd volunteered) to place warning signs about Atlanta on the main road leading there.

3) Otis.

4) Jeopardizing his own life, Rick's and Randall's by stirring the Walkers inside the building through his wild/angered flinging of the wrench that shattered the window.

5) (Again partial responsibility) Shane backed Dale when Dale seized Andrea's gun, which lead to the aforementioned near-miss with the Walker that Maggie saved Andrea from.

That's all I can think of to either man's account, but I welcome any input from my fellows :)

Edit: I seem to have a tendency of killing threads by coming on too strong with my positions. Truly, I don't mean to diminish anyone's enjoyment of the discussions over differently-perceived elements about our beloved TWD program. I went all systematic for this last post in an attempt to bring my participation back closer to the objective center of discussion. So, I apologize to all that my posts are easily perceived as abrasive, and as if I'm steamrolling different PoVs. That's the very last thing I want to do, my word on that.

Sometimes plot elements seem so obvious in their "true" interpretation to me, but I suppose I need to take a second and even third look if I'm so out of sync that my posts become something people want to avoid. Sorry guys and gals. I know my worldview by no means belongs to the majority consensus, but its my hope that if I try harder maybe my ideas might become something other than the hand-written equivalent of spam.

Ultra Magnus

28-Feb-2012, 09:46 PM

Wyldwraith came thru and crushed the buildings!

Trancelikestate

28-Feb-2012, 11:55 PM

Anyone else feel like responses over 5 paragraphs are too daunting to even begin to read?

AcesandEights

29-Feb-2012, 12:03 AM

Anyone else feel like responses over 5 paragraphs are too daunting to even begin to read?

You read the words? I only look at the .jpgs ;)

Honestly, I sometimes will diatribe with the best of them, but for the most part I am a less is more, rule of brevity kind of dude.

Each to their own, though.

fishfast41

29-Feb-2012, 12:29 AM

kidgloves

29-Feb-2012, 12:52 AM

There's a shit load of references to the comic going on as well. There introducing a lot of the ideas from the comic earlier and playing with the storyline which I really appreciate.

AcesandEights

29-Feb-2012, 12:58 AM

There's a shit load of references to the comic going on as well. There introducing a lot of the ideas from the comic earlier and playing with the storyline which I really appreciate.

Yeah, I was thinking about with some of the subplots. It's nice to see.

Legion2213

29-Feb-2012, 01:12 AM

Wyldwraith's analysis of both mens actions is right on the money, IMO. I think Shane is far more qualified to lead the group from a pure survival standpoint. I'm surprised Rick hasn't gotten anyone killed so far. Did anyone notice Shane's reflection in the broken window right after he threw the wrench? No one has mentioned this yet, I think. Pretty good symbolism on the idea that zombies are simply the basest instincts turned loose. "We're them,and they're us" , to quote a phrase. Its these little tidbiits that really keep me watching. great stuff, What do you guys think?

If "pure survival" means looking after Shanes intersts, then yeah, he is the man for the job.

Honestly..ask yourself this single question...if it was you out there in a bad situation, who out of Rick and Shane would walk through fire to help you out and who would write you off as an "acceptable loss" (especially if he wanted something that was yours).

As a character, Shane is boss...as somebody watching my back in a zombiegeddon situation, I'd rather have Rick out there with me. :)

Ragnarr

29-Feb-2012, 01:20 AM

Not sure if I'm liking the new character whatshisface! He seems about as manly as a hybrid of Jimmi Olsen (Superman) and Gilligan (from the island) to me, only thinner. I do enjoy seeing Rick kicking ass though, especially when it's Shane stuck on the end of his workboot! :)

fishfast41

29-Feb-2012, 02:18 AM

hmmm well. Legion, I'd have to say that I'd rather have Rick watching my back, 'cuz he'd be the one to cover me, you're right about that..That's because I would want to live. However, Rick's decisions in this area have been dangerous to the group as a whole. The only exception I can see is when he guns down the 2 guys in the bar. This was correct, and I'm certain Shane would have done the same,probably without all the talking.:) Shane's decisions here have been the correct ones for the group's survival. It doesn't matter whether Shane is being selfish or not,his best interests coincide with those of the group right now.I'm pretty sure that will change as things progress,but we aren't there yet. lol I'm looking at this from a group survival perspective, not an individual one. The present situation with Randall is a good example. For the good of the group, he must die.It's that simple. Sometimes, for the good of the whole, someone must be sacrificed.Obviously, this is not a pleasant thing, but in the situation we have here, it is the lesser of two evils. ooops one thing more...With his killing of the 2 in the bar ,and his admission that they would probably have to kill Randall, it seems that Rick is coming around to Shane's way of thinking here.

Neil

29-Feb-2012, 10:04 AM

Don't believe anyone has brought an obvious question up?

Why are the characters not worried about zombie blood ending up in their mouths or blood streams? They know a bite from a zombie will infect/kill them, so they know the zombies are walking infections. YET, when our characters are sprayed with blood, they don't seem concerned blood my be entering their mouths or eyes?

And likewise, Shane slicing his hand open (in the bus) with a knife that had recently been in a zombies head?

Good episode though :)

fishfast41

29-Feb-2012, 12:28 PM

I noticed this in lots of zombie movies,and its a good point. Wish I could think up a reason to explain it away. OMG Neil, you just killed my willing suspension of disbelief! LOL

shootemindehead

29-Feb-2012, 01:04 PM

Don't believe anyone has brought an obvious question up?

Why are the characters not worried about zombie blood ending up in their mouths or blood streams?

Yeh, was thinking that myself. They already have the beware "bites and scratches" attitude, but they don't seem to care about wading into the fray, splattering zombie blood everywhere.

Although, they did wear facemasks in the second ep of the 1st series when they cut up a zombie for the guts scene.

As for Shane and his knife thing, I reckon that was just a continuity goof.

Gemini

29-Feb-2012, 04:50 PM

I am surprised you all aren't talking about this, but what do you make of the two dead walkers that Rick and Shane thought were odd because neither had a bite mark on them? This must be significant because it was revisited later in the episiode. Rick and Shane were not sure and assumed that scratches must transmit the infection. But what if this is a clue to one of the key dead debates we have on here - do you have to be bitten to turn, OR does every death result in reanimation, with bites only the cause of death, not the cause of reanimation?

Does this tie into what the doctor whispered to Rick in season 1? Or can we all safely assume he was just telling Rick that Lori's preggo?

Second half of season 2 is awesome so far. Interestingly, the second half premiere was my least favorite episode.

krisvds

29-Feb-2012, 04:52 PM

I really don't see Shane caring about the group. If he were in charge, in no time there wouldn't be much of a group left to defend.
Now Rick's moral code is slowly beginning to deteriorate. That's a big part of the comics as well and something I'm really interested in seeing in this tv series.
In a world like this were at times the zombies are the least of your worries neither Shane nor Rick could keep everyone safe. Before you know it humanity is exposed as a bunch of hypocritical animals changing their moral code ad hoc. Doesn't matter what 'team' you like most.

@ Gemini
I hope they are sticking to the Romero rules here; the dead walk the earth. If you die you come back, bitten or not. Still if this were so what did these guys die from. Suicide pills? Heart failure? Exposure to Nickelback?

Wyldwraith

29-Feb-2012, 05:27 PM

The thing about Rick is he's not just moral, he's a hardcore Optimist.
Example: Faced with the revelation of Lori's pregnancy, at a time when Herschel was still being ADAMANT about insisting they have to leave, Rick's initial reaction is: (Paraphrasing) "I don't know how, but we can make this work Lori." Optimism is a good thing in a protracted Survival Situation, just ask any expert in self-rescue and subsistence-survival (Ie: Living off the land/what can be scavenged). I'm not knocking Rick's optimism, EXCEPT when he allows it to completely overrule common-sense and pragmatic assessments of high-risk situations. The perfect example of this is Rick's insistence on continuing to send 90% of their group out in search-parties for Sophia even after Carl had been shot, Andrea was nearly bitten and Daryl was almost killed 3 different ways on the same day. (Being thrown from the horse, almost being bitten while unconscious from said fall, and being grazed in the head by Andrea's rifle-shot.)

Conversely, Shane wants to increase the probabilities of avoiding mishaps through a combination of playing it safe, controlling/securing the immediate environment, and keeping manpower & firepower consolidated whenever feasible. The guy who (quite practically) points out to Rick the truism from their cop-days that 72hrs after a child has gone missing you're far more likely to find a body than rescue the child alive, and as Shane said, that was before the Zombie Apocalypse. Yes, Shane forced the issue about the Walker-barn, but ONLY after first waiting days for Rick to reach a diplomatic solution with Herschel and AFTER it was made 100% clear by Rick that leaving the farm was not an option to be considered.

Interestingly enough, time and time again Glenn instinctively moves to what will eventually become the "middle ground" between Rick and Shane's opposite reactions to the same situation. Maggie sees that and has repeatedly told Glenn as much, but for reasons as yet undisclosed Glenn doesn't want to see himself on the same "leadership level" as Rick & Shane. If Glenn WAS willing to step up in that manner, the group's leadership dynamic might become a CONSIDERABLY more stable triumvirate instead of the Two Party System played out in microcosm. Unfortunately, Glenn is as yet too comfortable in his current role. (A role which bears a remarkable resemblance to Morgan Freeman's portrayal of Red in The Shawshank Redemption)

In the absence of a stabilizing 3rd-position leadership influence (And neither Dale/Lori's behind-the-scenes manipulations or Daryl's Freelance Army-Of-One conduct would cut it) it's natural that increasing polarization and extremism is the result of a Two-Party/Binary dynamic, much as it is in U.S politics out here in the real world.

Edit: Regarding the comment: "I really don't see Shane caring about the group. If he were in charge, in no time there wouldn't be much of a group left to defend."
Doesn't the fact that Shane had the group encamped in a remote location, was doing everything he could to police actions that might draw Walkers to them (Like chastising Ed for building the fire too high because of the extra light it'd cast), and DIDN'T HAVE ANY of the "near-misses" that have become so common during Rick's "administration" sort of blow a hole in that argument at the water-line? Those people had been together since the napalming of Atlanta and seemed to be doing fine. I'll grant you that Rick has tried to be more proactive, but isn't that a reaction to the casualties/dangers brought about by his adhering to a much stricter moral code? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

krisvds

29-Feb-2012, 06:00 PM

"I really don't see Shane caring about the group. If he were in charge, in no time there wouldn't be much of a group left to defend."[/i]
Doesn't the fact that Shane had the group encamped in a remote location, was doing everything he could to police actions that might draw Walkers to them (Like chastising Ed for building the fire too high because of the extra light it'd cast), and DIDN'T HAVE ANY of the "near-misses" that have become so common during Rick's "administration" sort of blow a hole in that argument at the water-line? Those people had been together since the napalming of Atlanta and seemed to be doing fine. I'll grant you that Rick has tried to be more proactive, but isn't that a reaction to the casualties/dangers brought about by his adhering to a much stricter moral code? (Honest question, not rhetorical.)

Yeah, but that was the Shane who believed he'd probably never see Rick again in his whole life. Still, sooner or later walkers would have shown up at that camp, since it was so close to the city. Staying there wasn't all that smart either.
Now, after Rick shows up he slowly starts cracking (attempted rape, pointing a gun at Rick in the woods, shooting Otis, ...). It's what makes him the character we love to hate/hate to love now. The way he's been behaving since Otis's death I wouldn't trust the man. For a former cop his moral code is deteriorating fast!
Anyways, to me the series (both comic and tv) is about trying to maintain a certain degree of humanity amidst the chaos of the zombie apocalypse. Sure, the rules are changing. Survivalism is important. But I still think old Dale is right when he points out that ruthless self-preservation will be the groups undoing in the end as well.
Not that Rick's morality doesn't get them in trouble either mind you. At times it's like a bleak comedy/ Tc Boyle novel ;)

Thorn

29-Feb-2012, 07:54 PM

Yeah I tend to avoid long threads, not all the time time mind you I love a good debate where it makes sense and at times i am overly wordy myself. But you tend to lose people when you try to cover too much ground especially if it is ground you have gone over before a lot of times. I prefer to just say we will never agree on Shane vs Rick when it comes to leadership instead of waiting EVERY episode to find a little nugget you (not anyone in particular) feel makes your point and then layering it on top of your old arguments dating back two seasons.

At the end of the day we all have our opinions and unti ltheir is a smoking gun they are not likely to change and even if there IS (Shane throwing a wrench at Rick, Shane dumping a motorcycle on his friend risking maiming or killing him Rick coming back to save Shane... we can still justify these actions or minimize the ones that don't help our cause/point of view) So really... it is pointless and frustrating.

As for the comics I thought you did not read the comics Wyld am I wrong in that? If not you really can not argue the comics in anyway as part of your "points" in fact you would be shocked to know in the comics certain things happen that bolster your arguments very well. They are two totally different universes based on the same mirror world where different tales unfold and that to makes the m each all the better.

Ragnarr

01-Mar-2012, 01:20 AM

If you notice, Shane seems to be gradually losing his marbles starting from the first season up to the present. What some would call "the slow slide into madness". The excessive beating of the dude (whatsherfaces douchey husband) when the women were doing the laundry by the lakeside, Shane getting all twitchy when he had Rick in his gun sites, Shane losing it at the CDC not only with the attempted rape of Lori, but when he really freaked out on Jenner, then of course the Otis shooting and "Barn-megedon".

I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away.

Thorn

01-Mar-2012, 02:06 AM

babomb

01-Mar-2012, 03:46 AM

Something I haven't seen come up regarding this episode is when Rick pulls over to have his talk with Shane. 1st thing he says is that he heard about Shane killing Otis. He's not the least bit upset about it, and he even takes issue with the fact that Shane thinks that he wouldn't have been able to do it himself if he was the 1 there. He assures Shane that he will do whatever it takes to protect his family.
The bottom line is that Rick himself agrees with Shanes decision to sacrifice Otis, believes he would've done the same thing, and doesn't like the fact that Shane doesn't think he could've done it.
This flies in the face of most peoples belief in Ricks altruistic nature. During those past episode discussions, most people thought that sacrificing Otis like that would be absolutely unacceptable to Rick.

AcesandEights

01-Mar-2012, 03:50 AM

This flies in the face of most peoples belief in Ricks altruistic nature. During those past episode discussions, most people thought that sacrificing Otis like that would be absolutely unacceptable to Rick.

I actually still think it would have been unacceptable to Rick, as that's what would have been consistent with his character up to that point.

Wyldwraith

01-Mar-2012, 04:32 AM

I'm confused,
I've looked, but I can't find an instance of my even mentioning the comics as other than a reference to the trend that some here compare comics content with episode content.
In any case, I appreciate what you're saying Thorn but really I'm just doing the same thing towards the Rick character after each episode as many do regarding the Shane character after each episode. One could just as easily say that the constant restating of the Shane-character's "sins" amounts to the same thing as "defending, justifying or minimizing" said sins.

We pick apart and all but forensically analyze each episode frame-by-frame every week, it's tradition. ;)
Are there more reasonable potential outcomes to the featured circumstances? Of course. Just not within onscreen boundaries.

I believe I've said this before, but if not, I genuinely respect the manner in which you frame your thoughts and articulate your opinions Thorn. Yes, we're always going to clash on the Optimism Vs. Pragmatism and Morality Vs. Expediency-related issues, but that's all in good fun. Isn't it?

Both actors are portraying men that are slowly losing their minds due to unrelenting external pressures combined with their unforgiving expectations of themselves and each other. Rick only looks "good" with Shane as a foil. Without Shane, Rick would've put that very stylish .357 to his head and pulled the trigger after one of his returns as the conquering hero, only to find the wife and child about which he's fashioned his sense of self have become McGhoul Nuggets(tm). Without Rick, Shane..well, Shane wouldn't do much of anything because there'd be no messes for him to clean up.

Maybe I do empathize with the Shane-character a bit too much,...and I DEFINITELY read personal perceptions into how said character is taking the fall over a woman's abdication of personal responsibility. It's an EXTREMELY true-to-life social dynamic, because I doubt there's a guy over 30 in North America who hasn't lost himself (to one extent or another) when he couldn't find a healthy way to accept he'd become entangled in a no-win situation of female design. Truly, for all the attention given to the admittedly 1st-Class representation of the Apocalypse, it's an interpersonal dynamic capable of evoking genuine emotion...and maybe that says something about me that I want so badly to see Shane come out the "winner" despite there being a dozen reasons+ to know that just isn't in the cards.

AnxietyDilemma

01-Mar-2012, 04:49 AM

I'd give it a few more episodes before he puts on his "yes, I'm insane" T-shirt and makes it obvious to all that either they need to kill him to survive themselves or banish him to go play checkers with Meryl somewhere far far away.

And people would still defend his actions. I prefer Rick, but I agree that many of Shane's choices are the right ones, it's just his approach as has been said. But beyond that, I think some people are really pushing it with their defense of Shane's questionable actions such as the attempted rape, having Rick in his crosshairs, throwing a wrench at Rick's head etc....I mean, the man is no saint.

Say what you will about Rick's morality issues, but it's a bit ironic that the characteristics that Shane is trying to argue Rick into abandoning in order to adapt to the new rules, are the very issues that caused Rick to re-consider and come back for Shane and rescue him rather than just leave him behind.

shootemindehead

01-Mar-2012, 02:33 PM

Wyldwraith

01-Mar-2012, 03:54 PM

Rick can be very inconsistent when it comes to crunch-time decisions,
He needs a day or more to decide what to do about someone who shot at him and his, but can decide (albeit temporarily) to leave Shane behind after the two of them had argued and fought over Randall's fate? HOWEVER, I'll grant that this is by no means a cut-and-dried example, since there's nothing that DEFINITIVELY indicates Rick's decision in that instance and/or when and how he came to his decision (whatever it was) in that situation.

As for Shane, I don't believe ANYONE here has tried to condone what Shane did to Lori at the CDC. At one point I stated my belief that Shane never intended to go as far as actual rape, but even then I (among others) was quick to condemn such behavior as barbaric and completely unacceptable. Violating a woman's personal space while making overtly suggestive statements and taking equally overt action is wrong, Wrong, WRONG! Engendering that sort of fear in a woman is damaging in so very many ways, and leaves in its wake emotional and psychological scarring that will NEVER disappear completely. Anyone who is or has been part of a life damaged in this way knows how corrosive the effects of such bestial behavior are on so many different aspects of the victim's life.

HOWEVER, it's not a matter of blaming the victim to point out Lori has managed to COMPLETELY abdicate all responsibility for HER DECISION to become involved with Shane. It IS a fair question to ask if even half the screwed up things done by Shane would have happened if Lori hadn't used the UNRELATED issue of what Shane told her about Rick's fate as her justification for dumping all the responsibility on Shane. If good intentions matter so much, then they matter equally regardless of whose intentions they happen to be.

We know from the flashback scene that Shane truly had every reason to believe EITHER a) Rick had just expired, and now he (Shane) needed to focus on getting Lori & Carl to safety as Rick would've wanted. Lori (and thus Carl) would have died either at the hospital or their home because of Lori's self-admitted declaration she wouldn't have left if there was the tiniest chance Rick was alive. What's more pivotal than whether or not the wife and son both men want survived?

I can't speak for anyone else, but the way I see it many of Shane's misdeeds aren't simply a matter of Shane wanting Lori and Carl for himself. Those misdeeds have half their roots in the fact that Lori went beyond ending things with Shane into demanding he behave as if none of it ever happened. Being rejected sucks, but it's a part of life that well-balanced adults have to cope with on occasion. It's something else entirely to try and rewrite the past to suit yourself, when events in said past had true importance to someone else.

A girl breaks up with you, you get bummed...you're not yourself for awhile, and maybe you punch a door or throw a pity party. But you can work through it. Force someone to BURY that deep a hurt/anger/resentment and it WILL find a means of expression. Only now the person who forced the burying of those emotions bears PART of the responsibility when something dysfunctional happens as a result. Lori didn't JUST dump the responsibility for her becoming involved with Shane all on him, she ALSO tied the dumping of that responsibility to Rick's return. Then, when Lori FINALLY tells Rick what happened, Rick does the SAME THING. "You thought I was dead and you and Carl were alone." Which translates to: "All right, you made a mistake with Shane, but it's OK because you thought I was dead."

I "defend" Shane because the script very deliberately leaves him all alone, with responsibility he isn't really responsible for and no one to come along and neatly shift all the blame for his mistakes and misdeeds because that's a more comfortable interpretation of events for them." The poor bastard was set up to fail, and not just fail but do the heavy lifting for others and then, as they enjoy the fruits of said heavy lifting, demonize him at leisure.

Proof? Here ya go: Shane can't find a pulse or respiration in his comatose partner, but despite knowing his partner's wife and child will stay and die where they are if there's the slightest chance Rick is alive, Shane tells Lori that Rick might still be alive. Would've been the moral thing to be honest with Lori, yes?

Or: (Assuming Shane let events play out as they actually did, Rick returns and Lori demands Shane stay the hell away from her and her family.) Carl gets shot, someone's gotta go get medical supplies required to save his life but Rick is needed at Carl's side to provide continued transfusions. Shane honors Lori's request and say "Gee Lori, I'd sure like to help the little guy out, but out of respect for your wishes I can't get involved.)

Or even: (After Lori's car crash) Shane takes a seat next to Daryl and they have a few beers while whittling and talking about girls they banged 15-20yrs ago. Lori is left to hoof out down the road towards town with 4 rounds remaining in her revolver.

All even more insane and screwed up than what Shane actually did, right? That's because the only way for Shane to "win" is to risk dying a horrible death on a regular basis out of pure altruism for the sake of the woman who's "annulled him", the kid he's not supposed to have anything to do with, and the unborn child that may be his that he'll be expected to risk his ass for but never be acknowledged as anything but his dad's ex-cop ex-friend. No WONDER the guy's a headcase.

Neil

01-Mar-2012, 04:04 PM

but can decide (albeit temporarily) to leave Shane behind
...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him!

krisvds

01-Mar-2012, 04:10 PM

Wyldwraith. Not only is he a member of the 'in defense of hopeless guys given the boot by a lady they love' society, he is also its president.

Wyldwraith

01-Mar-2012, 06:52 PM

Actually,
Someone amongst TWD scriptwriters is WAY more damaged than me. I never would've considered putting the guy the girl dumped on in a situation where he needs to commit a capital crime to save her whelp, not to mention himself. They say the secret to top-shelf writing is "Write What You Know" so some poor chump has turned his emotional battle scars into a major payday. The American Dream made manifest ;)

Thorn

01-Mar-2012, 07:38 PM

@Wyld

Of course TWD is a world/setting of various moral shades of gray rather than black and white, but (and this is just my opinion) I feel there's a tendency amongst many of our compatriots here to want things to adhere as closely to the comics as is feasible in the television medium. That's cool and all, but the way things happen in the comic is not by any means automatically the "right way" for events and character interactions to transpire in our beloved TV show.

I was more referencing this, and while of course you could just be basing your comments off member comments, the comics are really exact and to the point and really as source material they are going to guide the direction of the show. It is the well spring from which it sprang and most of the items from from the comic made it into the show.

I speak for only myself when I say I don't want a word for word adaptation and I am happy there has been such a willingness to make changes here and there.

That said I respect and appreciate your posts and your right to your opinion, there have been many discussions I have enjoyed even when we are on opposite sides of it... I don't mind that it is all in good fun and there is no personal component towards a difference of opinions over characters in a show.

As was said we all take a lot of us into these discussions with us. I do like talking about it and real meaningful developments should be noted, where it gets too much is when it is over and over again layering new arguments on top of the old so you have a 3,000 word essay on old material with a bit of new material added in. I just would hate for your posts and message to be lost in "TLDR" situations and a lot of time it is happening.

Also being open minded is so key, not making assumptions as fact, and saying things with certainty only the writers could know. Or omitting key bits of information.

I guess an example might be... saying Rick was going to leave Shane as a way of condemning him, and then downplaying the fact that he came back... especially when you downplay the fact that Shane actively had him in his sights (earlier in the series) because he decided not to. It shows a hypocritical bias so visible as to be undeniable. The funny thing is even THAT is not the same. Rick leaving Shane not risking his life and letting Shane fend for himself is different than Shane considering to consciously and willfully kill Rick with his own hands when Rick's guard is down.

By Shane's own logic Rick should have left him, Rick didn't. That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer ;)

Neil

01-Mar-2012, 07:46 PM

By Shane's own logic Rick should have left him, Rick didn't. That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer ;)

As much as I think Shane is losing it, Otis isn't an example IMHO. It was both of them, or one of them... Shane made the impossible decision, so at least one of them survived...

Thorn

01-Mar-2012, 08:00 PM

...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him!

Also this.

And you are right I just wanted to say "Otis-Slayer" it sounds like a cool name you would slap on a fantasy night... but with Otis instead of dragon or king... totally tongue in cheek.

AcesandEights

01-Mar-2012, 08:04 PM

As much as I think Shane is losing it, Otis isn't an example IMHO. It was both of them, or one of them...

Nah, maybe that's what the writers or director wanted to get through, but if so I thought they did a poor job. If they were in such desperate straits they should have both been set upon and devoured while rolling around on the ground for all that time.

babomb

01-Mar-2012, 09:13 PM

...or did he just realise he couldn't take the creatures on without 1 ton of metal wrapped around him? ie: He had to retreat to save him! This is what I think happened too. But it should be stated that I also identify and empathize more with Shane than Rick. And I agree with pretty much all of Wylds assessment of the situation.
I think what Andrea said to Lori was spot on.

That is the man I want leading me and having my back. Not the Otis slayer. Funny you should mention that. Since the man you want leading and having your back proclaimed that he supports the decision to slay Otis. Not only that, he believes he would've done the same thing, AND has a problem with the fact that Shane doesn't think he would've. This is a major development IMO regarding the Otis controversy. I'm sure it will be glossed over by everyone who's against Shane and all about Rick. But glossing it over doesn't change the facts of the matter. I realize that Rick wasn't there, and therefore wasn't the one that killed Otis. But he didn't bat an eye when Shane told him that he capped him in the leg. He went on to assure Shane that he's capable of making those types of decisions, and got upset when Shane thought otherwise. He never once chastised Shane over the killing of Otis, he moved directly from that into the affair between Shane and Lori. What did Rick do after Shane threw the wrench at his head? He gave him his gun back. Rick is coming around to Shane's hard-edged style of decision making. I'm not saying that Rick is gonna become Shane.
Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think.
It should also be noted that Rick started that fight between him and Shane, and only because Shane said he didn't think he was capable of protecting his family.

AcesandEights

01-Mar-2012, 09:29 PM

Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think.

I think you're overlooking character and plot progression. As someone who reads the comics, assuming the Rick of tvland goes a similar direction, I can tell you...

I would never hang my hat on Rick keeping his hands clean as his character progresses. And I think this is normal for most of the characters given a long enough timeline and rocky enough road

For me it's never been about Shane being a villain, so much as it being his default strategy when a problem comes along to impose his will through the threat, or implied threat of force. It's one thing to be driven to commit questionable acts, but another to stumble into them over and over again and even embrace them sometimes.

babomb

02-Mar-2012, 12:37 AM

I think you're overlooking character and plot progression. As someone who reads the comics, assuming the Rick of tvland goes a similar direction, I can tell you... I totally agree with that. But for the sake of those who don't read the comic I try to keep my points and comments based only on what we know from the show. The world they're in pretty much dictates that Rick will at least partially succumb to the "dark side", if you will. It's inevitable. Especially if the writers want to keep things realistic.
In Shane's words, "you can't just be the good guy and expect to live", which Rick responds "I'm not the good guy anymore". IMO, this is all about character and plot progression. My comment about it was in regard to those folks who side with Rick, so to speak, because they see him as the good guy and Shane as the villain.
Personally, I don't see it as black and white as Rick=the hero and Shane=the villain. I want Rick to put a cap in Randalls head though. Not Shane. Rick! Although it would be OK if Shane had to be the one to do it again. Because IMO, Randall has to die! So it's either feed him to the walkers or man up and do what has to be done for the group. I just want Rick to be the 1 to do it cuz I'm sick of the good guy routine.
The idea of who would be the better leader out of the 2 is a non-issue IMO because looking to someone else to be the leader is a terrible idea in any situation, let alone in a zombie apoc. And I don't think that leadership is in any way an important thing to Shane. Which IMO is a more realistic situation than some dude who feels he has to make the right decisions all the time because of some sense of duty as the leader of the group.

Thorn

02-Mar-2012, 01:32 AM

This is what I think happened too. But it should be stated that I also identify and empathize more with Shane than Rick. And I agree with pretty much all of Wylds assessment of the situation.
I think what Andrea said to Lori was spot on.

Funny you should mention that. Since the man you want leading and having your back proclaimed that he supports the decision to slay Otis. Not only that, he believes he would've done the same thing, AND has a problem with the fact that Shane doesn't think he would've. This is a major development IMO regarding the Otis controversy. I'm sure it will be glossed over by everyone who's against Shane and all about Rick. But glossing it over doesn't change the facts of the matter. I realize that Rick wasn't there, and therefore wasn't the one that killed Otis. But he didn't bat an eye when Shane told him that he capped him in the leg. He went on to assure Shane that he's capable of making those types of decisions, and got upset when Shane thought otherwise. He never once chastised Shane over the killing of Otis, he moved directly from that into the affair between Shane and Lori. What did Rick do after Shane threw the wrench at his head? He gave him his gun back. Rick is coming around to Shane's hard-edged style of decision making. I'm not saying that Rick is gonna become Shane.
Just that Rick isn't as altruistic and not so opposed to Shane's ways as many here would like to think.
It should also be noted that Rick started that fight between him and Shane, and only because Shane said he didn't think he was capable of protecting his family.

Someone calls me out as it pertains to protecting my family and says they can do a better job he better be ready to throw down ;)

I have said before at least as it pertains to the comics Rick is all about protecting his family and even admits he does it to a fault and doesn't consider the group as much as he should, he is not perfect and no man is. My thing is just that if I have to pick I pick Rick, despite him saying he would have done the same... I don't think he could or would. Great point though.

krisvds

02-Mar-2012, 05:31 AM

In a world where the dead are returning to life the word humanity loses much of its meaning.

The slow loss of humanity is at the heart of the series and perhaps key to its succes. We do seem to talk more about characters and their motivations than actual gore/FX etc.
As much as I sympathise with Rick, being a father myself, his 'deconstruction' and Shane's (written with almost sadistic glee by the writing team) is pretty entertaining.
I must also say that I think they have stretched the love triangle ting long enough now. It's pretty obvious , even to someone who hasn't read the comics (like my wife) that the Rick vs Shane storyline will end in violence. The build up is just too obvious. Kirkman may enjoy his toying with comic fans expectations but at this point they are just stretching it.
I really hope the resolve comes this season...

BTW If it's true Darabont had no hand in the episodes of the second part of this season, judging by the quality of the three already aired, I must say I believe the show is in capable hands. Might be part of the plan all along for all I know, but they really seem to have upped the 'dread' and suspense. Pretty detrimental in a zombie show. Good work Mazzara.

SRP76

02-Mar-2012, 05:56 AM

Alright, I'll just say a couple things:

1. Dead by any means results in zombie. You don't need Jenner, you don't need Shane and Rick philosophizing until their heads explode. You just need eyes and common sense. We've seen zombies - clearly not bitten - flopping in cars. Real simple. If you had to be bitten or scratched to become a zombie, how would the first one have been born? Wouldn't be possible. So it's no real mystery.

2. Rick didn't "endanger" anybody. There are so many holes in that argument it's absurd. What, he's not supposed to shoot the ghouls to clear himself a path in Atlanta as Glenn suggested he do?! What, it's Rick's fault that Shane and the others at camp decided that instead of posting guards, they should sit around and have a campfire circle-jerk? It's ridiculous.

3. Shane shot Otis to save his own ass. Simple as that. Not to "save" a damn person but himself. Why? Because he's a save-ass prick, as a good villain should be.

4. Lori suggested Rick deal with Shane because she's SCARED of him. Duh. What woman DOESN'T try to get her old man to act when some possessive, obsessed, Otis-murdering ex-boyfriend won't back the fuck off?! Where's the common sense around here?

5. Maggie blows off Pops to head right to the dude that's only boned her like twice. Proves that Glenn wasn't just a pizza guy, he was a porn stud on the side. Either that, or she's never had a proper pipelaying.

6. T-Dogg should just kill himself; it's the only way he'll get any screen time.

7. What does Daryl do if he finds a zombie that doesn't still have its ears?

8. It's time for Carrol to get eaten. Without a husband to beat her or a daughter around, there's just no more need for her on the show.

9. CAN WE GET OFF THE FARM YET?!

10. If this "evil group" has survived all the way from Philly, what in hell do they want with Herschel's farm? They have already passed a billion of them by this point, and are obviously able to get along just fine.

Wyldwraith

02-Mar-2012, 07:27 AM

To retort @SRP76:

1) Obviously dead by any means does not ALWAYS = Zombie, or Carl would be zombie chow for reaching past a corpse with no wounds for a Bundle O' Knives. This is something they REALLY NEED to get CONSISTENT ABOUT.

2) Again, obviously the Survivors (especially Andrea) believed Rick endangered them. When a 3rd party has to talk an angry chick with a gun into not putting a new orifice in your face, you done screwed the pooch. As for the Camp Massacre Issue: RICK TOOK ALL THE BEST COMBATANTS! It's NOT foreseeable that if something dangerous happened back at the camp, the group would be LESS EQUIPPED to deal with it than when Daryl, Rick, Glenn and T-Dog aren't there? Really? C'mon now. Yes the group should've been posting sentinels, but conversely they're accustomed to having literally 3x as many big healthy men to help defend the old/weak/frail around the camp.

3) Shane brought the medical supplies back. Weight I am POSITIVE his injured knee/leg would've been happier had he dumped it and continued on. He didn't, so Shane gets credit for Carl's continued survival.

4) Lori is suggesting Rick KILL SHANE because she no longer NEEDS HIM. Proof? Tell me HONESTLY that, pregnant and all, had Glenn and Herschel returned to inform them Raiders shot and killed Rick that Lori WOULDN'T cozy right back up to Shane. Shane is expendable because Lori has an easier-to-manipulate male defender who's comparably effective gunplay-wise with her previous protector.

More proof? Lori suddenly drops from what Herschel determines hours later was some sort of brain-bleed. Do Rick and Shane continue their march towards mutually assured destruction, or do they mend fences?

5) Agreed. Cold Maggie, just..cold.

6) Agreed, furthermore I recommend T-Dog hang himself inside a well, below the waterline so we get another cool bloated floater-walker to split in half and dump gallons of putrescent viscera back down the well. Only way T-Dog's death would be a memorable event as opposed to triggering a massive "FINALLY" reaction from the viewer base.

7) Umm, he whittles himself some lodge-poles and begins scalping/displaying his splayed collection of rotting scalps from said poles?

8) Agreed. Further, the scriptwriters completely dropped the ball here. They had a PERFECT opening to dispose of Carrol. Just have her squirm out of Daryl's grasp and wrap her arms around Zophia as her dead little girl takes a big bite of McMomwich.

9) GOD YES. If it takes an air-strike from a rogue military unit I am BEYOND READY to be done with Redneck Zombie 90210 and get back to TWD.

10) Exactly. What does a group of healthy, armed young men no doubt accustomed to just grabbing whatever they want by now want with a farm that only has 3 @ 1/2 women worth of sex slaves? (Carrol + Lori = the 1/2) These "raiders" are demonstrating all the keen perceptiveness of the Dawn-raiders. Hell, if you can shrug off losing 5 men and associated firearms/ammo, you've ALREADY got vastly more than Rick & Co.

shootemindehead

02-Mar-2012, 09:36 AM

Nah, maybe that's what the writers or director wanted to get through, but if so I thought they did a poor job. If they were in such desperate straits they should have both been set upon and devoured while rolling around on the ground for all that time.

Agreed. I still think that there was a considerable amount of time between the decision to to hobble Otis and the zombie dinner.

It seemed that Shane took the decision very early.

MinionZombie

03-Mar-2012, 11:43 AM

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. :cool:

1) Excellent show for zombie action - KNB did a kick arse job, especially the head crushed under the car tyre, the three-zombie pile-up on Rick (the highlight of the episode for me), and the various knives-to-heads (a nice little reference/pick up from volume 3 or 4 of the trade paperbacks).

2) Excellent show for balancing too - we got great action, but we also got some deep emotional/theological stuff, addressing the issue of suicide and abandonment of hope in a zombie apocalypse world. It was interesting to see the wrestling between Maggie and Andrea over the girl (her name escapes me right now), and how Andrea is 'going a bit Shane' in her approach to a situation ... you can kind of see what she meant and was trying to do, but equally the girl isn't her sister and this isn't her home ... a line was indeed crossed there.

3) The Rick/Shane bro-down was great. Clearly Rick has been pondering Shane's actions for some time now - it was interesting to see the Gimple & Mazarra show the difference between the two men's ideas of strength and weakness, and indeed further show Rick's dark side that's coming out. As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid).

4) Speaking of which, this kid is a bit of a strange one - the way he was taunting the zombie that tried to attack him, and how he was pleading with them when being left, shows him to be a bit of an untrustworthy character. He's been hanging out with that gang who'll happily leave him when he's inconvenient, and you wonder if their approach has rubbed off on him. Interesting ... I'd definitely be keeping an eye on Randall, that's for sure.

5) The issue of infection - I too noticed the mistake with Shane's knife when he cut himself in the bus ... it's interesting that they've raised the issue of infection, but clearly you can't go all 'Contagion' with it as that would be no fun at all. In order to take down a zombie you'd have to have a kevlar hazmat suit on or something. Where's the fun in that in the long run? So you've got to have an amount of suspended belief on the issue ... sometimes I do wonder about blood going into someone's mouth or something, but then even getting it on your skin is a risk in 'real life', but there has to be some kind of balancing (indeed when you're spraying practical blood around on set, you can't be sure you won't get some in an actor's mouth) ... so, hmmm ... and interesting one.

6) I liked how this episode is a week after the previous episode - up until now it's pretty much been 1 day for each episode.

7) I also liked how we stuck to just two main pockets of characters in the two parallel stories. Rick/Shane/Randall, and then Maggie/Lori/Andrea/girl whose name I've forgotten.

A third spiffing episode in a row - clearly Mazarra has more than stepped up to the plate in Darabont's hands-on absence. I'm enjoying the increased scale of the look of the show, a touch more zombie action to balance the overall pacing, the quality of the themes at play hasn't dropped, the gore quotient hasn't dropped either (if anything it's gone up), so yeah - Mazarra's doing a great job. Can't wait to see the last three episodes of the season. :)

Now I'm going to go have a look at The Talking Dead for this episode...

Tricky

03-Mar-2012, 02:19 PM

Again really good episode, totally enjoyed it! I'd follow Rick, but I do feel sorry for Shane, he clearly wasnt a bad guy before the outbreak & its whats happened since thats turned him semi feral, as well as an unhealthy obsession with Lori - I've seen this kind of thing in real life though, not to those extremes but we all know somebody who just cant let go when they get dumped and they end up causing a scene - but he's obviously hurting and feeling alone which any person would and I can empathise with that (doesnt excuse Otis or trying to molest Lori), but its his way of dealing with those emotions that will be his undoing. The zombies coming out of the building were creepy after the wrench went through the window, do zombies sleep or just lay there motionless until disturbed? creepy either way!
I definitely dont trust Randall, there is an unhealthy cruel streak in him judging by the way he dealt with that zombie, and I wouldnt want him around

bassman

03-Mar-2012, 02:32 PM

The zombies coming out of the building were creepy after the wrench went through the window, do zombies sleep or just lay there motionless until disturbed? creepy either way!

I think they're just kinda lounging around when they're not in a herd or there's no food around. If you remember, when Rick rode into Atlanta in the first episode, there were walkers just sitting inside the busses.

paranoid101

03-Mar-2012, 02:40 PM

Great episode Me and my lass both agree if the shoe was on the other foot and Rick was trapped on the bus, Shane would have left his ass to die.

Also showed how Rick is the bigger and more thoughtful man even after all that happened between Shane and Rick in that episode, Rick is still willing to give Shane a chance at redemption.

Also saw a sneak peek at next week episode at the end of the UK show and It showed Shane and Andrea talking about how Rick has to go, so even after Rick giving Shane a Chance to come back from bat shirt crazy world, Shane still wants rid of Rick

AcesandEights

03-Mar-2012, 03:40 PM

Now I'm going to go have a look at The Talking Dead for this episode...

It was an okay episode of Talking Dead, but I actually felt myself feeling bad for the kid who plays Randall, who clearly was not comfortable in the free-form format. :)

Also, gotta say, I did love the 'zombie waterfall', as they referred to on TTD. It was handled perfectly!

krisvds

03-Mar-2012, 04:58 PM

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. :cool:

2) Excellent show for balancing too - we got great action, but we also got some deep emotional/theological stuff, addressing the issue of suicide and abandonment of hope in a zombie apocalypse world. It was interesting to see the wrestling between Maggie and Andrea over the girl (her name escapes me right now), and how Andrea is 'going a bit Shane' in her approach to a situation ... you can kind of see what she meant and was trying to do, but equally the girl isn't her sister and this isn't her home ... a line was indeed crossed there.

3) The Rick/Shane bro-down was great. Clearly Rick has been pondering Shane's actions for some time now - it was interesting to see the Gimple & Mazarra show the difference between the two men's ideas of strength and weakness, and indeed further show Rick's dark side that's coming out. As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid).

Balancing: agreed. A great episode that shows you can have the best of both worlds; emotional character driven stuff and creepy zombie action. These past few episodes I felt are among the best this season.

What makes Shane such a great villain to me is his humanity. Just like Tricky pointed out: the getting dumped/causing a scene part is what most can relate to. Sorry sod. If he'd just be the mad rapist/killer he wouldn't be half as cool.

Right, just bought me trade paperbacks 11 & 12. Hurray!

Wyldwraith

03-Mar-2012, 06:44 PM

Rick only has himself to blame,
If you escalate a long-brewing confrontation into violence, and then leave the one you're in said conflict with the impression you were a hair from leaving them to die, you should EXPECT them to solidify a desire/intent to do unto you before you do unto them. Rick's ultimatum-speech about following his lead/respecting his decisions destroyed any possible goodwill created by coming back for Shane. It's a do-or-do-not kind of situation. Either you man up and leave them to die when the opportunity presents itself or you never do anything like that in the first place.

Put another way, if there was even the POSSIBILITY that next time you need to rely on Person X they really will have left you to die...and that possibility is preying on your mind because of a previous situation where it SEEMED they left you, but at the last minute changed their mind...what exactly makes it unreasonable to do whatever's necessary to prevent that from happening?

The really cool thing about that "Did Rick or Didn't He" situation is it takes the themes of eroded trust between the two characters and brings it to a head. Now the other shoe has to drop, somehow, someway.
At the same time, it revisits the glaringly unasked question as to how Rick just sort of stepped past Shane into primary leadership. Ironically, though it's necessary for Rick to become much more like Shane if he intends to keep these people alive, the more he becomes like Shane the less moral authority he retains in his neverending ideological conflicts with Shane. Which is fascinating...if not surreal, to watch. It was completely wild hearing Rick and Shane essentially arguing over whether or not Rick has the stones to act as cold-bloodedly as Shane. Hearing Rick pissed off because Shane was stating his skepticism that Rick could've kneecapped Otis and left him for zombie chow was some through the looking glass kinda stuff.

AcesandEights

03-Mar-2012, 07:01 PM

The really cool thing about that "Did Rick or Didn't He" situation is it takes the themes of eroded trust between the two characters and brings it to a head. Now the other shoe has to drop, somehow, someway.

Agreed. This last episode simultaneously allowed several stressors and underwraps issues to blow up while consequently ratcheting up the pressure, as well as the stakes, for future confrontations.

MinionZombie

03-Mar-2012, 07:12 PM

It was an okay episode of Talking Dead, but I actually felt myself feeling bad for the kid who plays Randall, who clearly was not comfortable in the free-form format. :)

Also, gotta say, I did love the 'zombie waterfall', as they referred to on TTD. It was handled perfectly!

hehe, I loved that it was referred to by the crew as the "zombie waterfall". I enjoyed Kevin Smith on the show, but yeah I saw that the young guy was a bit nervous on the air. Good points from Scott Wilson too.

Balancing: agreed. A great episode that shows you can have the best of both worlds; emotional character driven stuff and creepy zombie action. These past few episodes I felt are among the best this season.

What makes Shane such a great villain to me is his humanity. Just like Tricky pointed out: the getting dumped/causing a scene part is what most can relate to. Sorry sod. If he'd just be the mad rapist/killer he wouldn't be half as cool.

Right, just bought me trade paperbacks 11 & 12. Hurray!

I must get myself some more TWD trade paperbacks (I have done the first ten so far, so I must get going on them again!

Totally agreed on the Shane front with you and Tricky - there is a richly flawed human beneath Shane's cold exterior. I loved the bit where he was trapped in the bus and Rick seemingly ran off with Randall - as Kevin Smith pointed out, seeing the two dead police officers again was a nice touch - and it was a rich scene in that you can read it a few ways. Rick's giving Shane a dose of his own medicine - something to think about - maybe Rick really was going to leave Shane, or maybe he was always going to come back for him ... plus on Shane's end there's that "oh shit" moment where he is the one on the shit end of the stick, only for the relief to kick in when Rick comes back, heroically (and awesomely) riding the car like a horse and firing off rounds so Shane can be saved.

Indeed, Shane now owes Rick his life (perhaps this was part of a re-balancing plan from Rick, or maybe it just came together that way), and I loved the final sequence when they're driving back to the farm and Shane's got all this going on in his head and he sees that zombie in the field again (was it just me, or was Shane's position and the angle on the field, exactly the same driving both ways? :confused:).

I loved the zombie in the field - again, you can take it a few ways - there's the loneliness of the zombie itself, and Shane sees that in himself, but there's also the dogged determination of this creature that just keeps on plodding along. It was in the field when they were on the way to that rescue station (I'm assuming that's what it was), Rick and Shane go through a hell of a lot of craziness, and then on the way back - there's that zombie again, still plodding through the field (but without getting all that far). All that craziness went on, and it's meaningless to the zombie, which is also so dogged in its continued existence.

As they pointed out on TTD by Scott Wilson, the scene between Lori and Andrea was really good - each time one of them speaks, they both have valid arguments. They've all lost a hell of a lot, and yet indeed Lori still has her husband, her child, and now she's got a new kid on the way (although in this world, a new baby on the way is as much a curse as it is a blessing), so that was interesting ... I will side with Andrea on her position in the camp. She's a crack shot, so damn straight she should be on watch - although she was over-keen to prove herself and damn near killed our beloved super ninja Daryl.

However Lori is damned right also in that this farm is a blessing in itself. Some bad has come of it, but it's also an isolated farm house where you can capture at least a piece of the life you once had ... but that's a curse to some and a blessing to others.

Finally - back to the zombie in the field - I absolutely loved that they used "Civilian" by Wye Oak as the soundtrack. It was used in the season two debut trailer, and I've been listening to it ever since - in fact it's playing right now as I type this - it kicks arse, and it worked really well here. They had a similar moment in 2x08 when they started burning the zombie piles, and it's a cool way to close an episode to let some themes and images sink in for further contemplation.

Indeed, looking at the lyrics to "Civilian" by Wye Oak, you can totally see why they picked it:

I am nothing without pretend
I know my faults
can't live with them
I am nothing without a man
I know my thoughts
but I can't hide them

I still keep my baby teeth
in the bedside table with my jewelry
you still sleep in the bed with me,
my jewelry, and my baby teeth

I don't need another friend
When most of them
I can barely keep up with them
perfectly able to hold my own hand,
but I still can't kiss my own neck.

I wanted to give you everything
but I still stand in awe of superficial things
I wanted to love you like my mother's mother's mothers did
civilian

civilian

:cool::thumbsup::cool:

AnxietyDilemma

03-Mar-2012, 11:40 PM

Another episode, another dose of the awesome. :cool:

As always, I remain in the Rick camp - I'd follow Rick, but I wouldn't follow Shane - clearly Rick can do what's necessary (2x08) in extreme circumstances, but he's also not going to let his humanity slip either (dealing with this kid).

This is exactly how I feel, Shane cares about the group as a whole, but Rick cares about each individual. It's easy to say "let's do what's best for the group" when you are huddled together, but when you find yourself left behind, who is the one who is going to rescue you, no matter how inconvenient?

Wyldwraith

04-Mar-2012, 02:38 PM

On the OTHER hand,
Who is far more likely to somehow get you killed during one of his morality-mandated rescues? Rick's morality cuts both ways. Yes, it's great when you're the one up a creek and need an against-the-odds last minute rescue, but when you're part of the 95% of the group who escaped cleanly in the first place it's REALLY HARD to refuse Rick when he starts making statements like "I'll go back for them alone if I have to. So, who's coming with me?" Then, as has been seen, people die while Rick has the best combatants tied up elsewhere. You think someone who only accompanied Rick because they either didn't want to be perceived as a coward or because they feel beholden to Rick for some past deed of his...when they're on their back with a Walker on top of them and that putrid mouth getting closer and closer to them no matter how hard they fight...you think in that moment such an individual is thinking "Ah well, at least I'm about to be eaten while doing the right thing. At least I HOPE the Walker bites through something vital very quickly, because the only thing worse than dying like this is surviving this attack to go through what Jim did?"

Of course not. So, definitely a double-edged morality Sword of Damocles. Rick is a gambler, and he's willing to risk the many to save the one. Shane, ironically, is the conservative one. He thinks about the majority who are safe right now and how to keep them that way. To Shane, deploying 3 or more of their people to rescue a single person...who there's more than a little reason to believe is/could already be dead is an unacceptable risk. Rationally, Shane's right. Morally (at least a good chunk of the time) Rick's right.

Your question is a good one Anxiety, but let's put add to it a little. "Who's going to try to rescue you even if it means putting the only person(s) you still have in mortal jeopardy?" Ask Andrea about the downside of moral commitment during a Zombie Apocalypse.

Andy

04-Mar-2012, 02:49 PM

bassman

04-Mar-2012, 03:10 PM

I Agree with pretty much everything wyld is saying and on top of that, ive never seen shane as the villain of the walking dead and it bugs me when people go "oohh he's endangering the group" and you ask what specifically shane has done that has endangered the group and nobody can ever answer it!

Abruptly releasing the barn walkers was pretty dangerous when you think about it. I'm not saying he was wrong for putting them down, but unleashing a herd of 10-15(?) walkers on the group without more of a plan was pretty stupid....

Tricky

04-Mar-2012, 03:16 PM

I also think that when Rick left Shane behind in the bus he wanted to give him a taste of how Otis must have felt in his final moments, force some real fear and guilt into him about it

Andy

04-Mar-2012, 03:17 PM

Abruptly releasing the barn walkers was pretty dangerous when you think about it. I'm not saying he was wrong for putting them down, but unleashing a herd of 10-15(?) walkers on the group without more of a plan was pretty stupid....

I really dont see how a better plan could have been devised than arming and lining up all the best shooters and releasing a moderately small stream of walkers right into a firing squad?

ProfessorChaos

04-Mar-2012, 03:18 PM

well, if shane had killed jenner, they'd have never gotten out of the CDC, so there's that. rick was able to convince jenner to allow them to leave by reasoning with him, rather than screaming at him and threatening to kill him.

a group is composed of individuals, and rick's concern for individuals speaks volumes about the style of leadership that rick possesses. more people are followers rather than leaders in this world, and they look to someone they can rally behind and be motivated by in times of crisis. while shane isn't a villain, he lacks several traits that make an effective leader when compared to rick.

the marine corps has an acronym for the 14 traits of effective leaders in combat. while there is no gospel or true definition for what we call leadership, it's about the best theory of the word that i've came across. the acronym is JJ DID TIE BUCKLE, and it abbreviates:

justice
judgement

decisiveness
integrity
dependability

tact
initiative
enthusiasm

bearing
unselfishness
courage
knowledge
loyalty
endurance

look those words up, make a tally sheet for rick and shane, watch the series in its entirety (remaining as neutral as possible, without making these characters' journey a reflection of your own life), and add up the score. rick's the natural leader, hands down.

bassman

04-Mar-2012, 03:23 PM

I really dont see how a better plan could have been devised than arming and lining up all the best shooters and releasing a moderately small stream of walkers right into a firing squad?

Again, i'm not against Shane's thought that the barn walkers needed to be put down. I agree with is character in that respect. Much like Andrea has said to him in a previous episode, it's his presentation that leaves something to be desired. Releasing the barn walkers in the heat of the moment was a poor decision and could have potentially been a lethal one. Sure, he organized a shooting squad at the last second, but at the same time he also had a group of people that were opposing his actions and everything could have very quickly turned south.

I guess what I'm getting at is that Shane is too impulsive. For that reason he puts everyone at risk. His intentions for the group are generally good, but he's just too much of a hot head to think things through before making his move. This is what makes Rick the better leader - he takes the time to consider every possible angle.

ProfessorChaos

04-Mar-2012, 04:36 PM

MinionZombie

04-Mar-2012, 05:16 PM

how about having one or two shooters enter on the 2nd floor as glenn did and picking them off from above?

I was about to say the same thing. The way it happened in the show is excellent for the show, and for us viewers, but if that was actual real-life, then it's an exceptionally dangerous way to go about things. Take the high ground and take your time.

I also think that when Rick left Shane behind in the bus he wanted to give him a taste of how Otis must have felt in his final moments, force some real fear and guilt into him about it

A great scene, because it can be read numerous ways - that way particularly.

well, if shane had killed jenner, they'd have never gotten out of the CDC, so there's that. rick was able to convince jenner to allow them to leave by reasoning with him, rather than screaming at him and threatening to kill him.

a group is composed of individuals, and rick's concern for individuals speaks volumes about the style of leadership that rick possesses. more people are followers rather than leaders in this world, and they look to someone they can rally behind and be motivated by in times of crisis. while shane isn't a villain, he lacks several traits that make an effective leader when compared to rick.

the marine corps has an acronym for the 14 traits of effective leaders in combat. while there is no gospel or true definition for what we call leadership, it's about the best theory of the word that i've came across. the acronym is JJ DID TIE BUCKLE, and it abbreviates:

justice
judgement

decisiveness
integrity
dependability

tact
initiative
enthusiasm

bearing
unselfishness
courage
knowledge
loyalty
endurance

Excellent post Prof - indeed Shane's idea of justice is mercurial and perhaps even a little savage. His judgment is clearly off, he is decisive (but following an incorrect path in my view), integrity is not a word I'd use to describe Shane (it very much is with Rick, although in this tough new world that term becomes mercurial in itself) ... dependability, yep, that ain't Shane either. Tact certainly isn't, he takes the initiative (but again, wrong path, wrong methods), his enthusiasm is skewed, as is his bearing, he's acting selfishly ultimately (even though he killed Otis to get back to Carl, ultimately it's because he wants Carl and Lori as his own family and he's jealous of Rick) ... courage, in terms of facing a fight, he isn't lacking in though ... knowledge he has (gun training etc), loyalty ... to himself, sure, but clearly his life-long friendship with Rick wasn't particularly strong from his end when the shite hit the proverbial fan ... endurance, in some ways yes, in others ways not so much.

Rick on the other hand exhibits many of those skills and character traits. You're quite right to point out the moment at the CDC ... at the very least Shane was resorted to threats of violence and murder in a moment of rage and frustration, while Rick was seeking resolution through reason in a moment of desperation.

Andy

04-Mar-2012, 05:32 PM

how about having one or two shooters enter on the 2nd floor as glenn did and picking them off from above?

Shane didnt know there was a second floor.

bassman

04-Mar-2012, 05:38 PM

Shane didnt know there was a second floor.

:rockbrow:

One look at the outside of the barn should tell anyone that it has a loft....

ProfessorChaos

04-Mar-2012, 05:45 PM

yeah, dude....not many barns don't have a second floor, from what i've seen...and i live in the midwest where there's tons of barns.

being a good 'ol boy like shane is, there's no way he didn't know that. and surely he knew that glenn found out about the walkers by entering the barn from above.

Andy

04-Mar-2012, 06:21 PM

:rockbrow:

One look at the outside of the barn should tell anyone that it has a loft....

Does one look at the outside tell you how many walkers are in the loft too?

MinionZombie

04-Mar-2012, 06:27 PM

Does one look at the outside tell you how many walkers are in the loft too?

No, but a careful and simple bit of reconnaisance will tell you that ... have a clamber up to the loft part, have a casual count, and then you can go in to the situation informed. Rather than - in the height of fury - bust open the doors and unleash all hell. It's not exactly a smart or controlled way to clear a barn of walkers ... excellent for the show (and necessary to push the plot forward, and stay true to Shane's crumbling mental state), but if it was a real-life situation, it's wholly the wrong thing to do. You want height, distance, control, and ideally stealth on your side in such a situation.

krisvds

04-Mar-2012, 06:28 PM

So guys, for real. I'm maybe getting it wrong but are there seriously people who watch this season and then go; this Shane character is a good person who would never endanger this group of characters. In fact he's the best leader among them ...
(ok ok, trying to kill your best friend, twice, is actually for the best of the group since said former friend is really dangerous because he makes moral decisions, and the woman you attempted to rape had it coming 'cause she's so lady Macbeth - evil she dumped you for her husband she believed dead, the fact she believed him dead wasn't really a lie, and killing Jenner would never have endangered anybody, and releasing those walkers without thinking of a plan, hey that's really in everyone's best interest,...)

bassman

04-Mar-2012, 06:28 PM

Does one look at the outside tell you how many walkers are in the loft too?

Not at all, but your comment was that he didn't know the barn had a second floor. As mentioned by another member before, Shane could have easily taken out the barn walkers in a more strategic manner. Instead, he operated off of an impulse and potentially put the entire group in danger.

AcesandEights

04-Mar-2012, 06:41 PM

Shane didnt know there was a second floor.

Which is exactly why releasing a stream of walkers onto the scene without conferring with others, making sure of a plan and that people are prepared, armed and have enough ammo directly on hand is the least he could have done.

Wyldwraith

04-Mar-2012, 08:10 PM

The barn argument is MOOT,
Herschel was ADAMANT about handling the zombie-incarceration in the barn with just him, Rick and the young man from Herschel's group. So Herschel and Rick were ALREADY planning on opening the barn to stuff the pair they had on catch-poles inside. Is it REMOTELY POSSIBLE they intended to take some other precautions? Sure, but everyone's always saying we have to judge by what we actually see and hear from the characters and not our personally-biased speculations.

So really, Shane's plan was by FAR the more reasonable of the two. One exit from the barn, Walkers head straight for the nearest humans 100% of the time...so opening the main door with a nod to everyone and a last look around to make sure everyone is locked and loaded is NOT a bad plan. 10-15 Walkers, zero obstructions between them and the "firing line" and enough distance between the barn doors and the shooters to easily allow for the termination of every Walker before ANY could reach a human being. What's so reckless about such a plan? Shane, Andrea, and Daryl are all crack shots at this point while Glenn and T-Dog are both equipped with shotguns to balance their lesser skills as shooters. 5 heavily armed humans, who know EXACTLY where the enemy is going to appear and EXACTLY how the enemy is going to react...versus 2-3x as many Walkers who by their very natures can do nothing but slog predictably into the hail of gunfire.

Put it in perspective another way: Having been surprised by the sudden appearance of Walkers, needing to rapidly exit the garage and reach their vehicle, and dealing with Walkers coming from 4-5 different directions, Shane & Andrea terminated nearly as many Walkers as were in the barn. Just the 2 of them, and armed only with pistols whereas the barn firing line included 3 shotguns firing at close range. Now, based on these known factors, why would one NEED a more elaborate plan to eliminate the barn-Walkers? Besides, again, it was hands-down a better plan than Rick and Herschel's...and where's all the hate for Rick for being so reckless with people's lives due to his horrible plan?

As for making sure there was enough ammo on hand, if each gun was loaded only to half-capacity you could have had just over a 50% miss/non-terminating hit-rate and still had a few bullets to spare. However, given Glenn and T-Dog both being unknown quantities in a hardcore bloodbath...I'll grant you that checking on the ammo situation wouldn't have been a bad idea. However, we should remember that the OBSCENE and INSANE image of Rick and Herschel emerging from the woods with 2 more Walkers for the barn on catch-poles was the proximate cause for Shane to rush his plan into action. A not-unreasonable reaction, since Shane very insightfully understood Rick's hands would be tied up and prevented from opposing him so long as he was forced to hold on to the catch-pole.

Yet bottom line, Rick's plan (or rather Rick going along with Herschel's insane plan) had a vastly greater % chance of human fatalities than what Shane did. Remembering that if Shane and the others had continued to obey Herschel's demand and Rick's orders...everyone but whoever had Dale's rifle and Rick would've been unarmed when Rick & Herschel tried to put the Walkers in the barn.

ProfessorChaos

04-Mar-2012, 08:20 PM

and how are we sure that rick and hershel were going to let the walkers in through the front door?....they could've been putting them in from the 2nd floor. i don't recall if this was ever discussed, but it's a possibility.

or they could've had someone go to the other side and bang on the walls to distract the walkers....since we never really see any new walkers herded into the barn, i feel it's hard to say that shane's methods were that superior rick's. without rick's (hershel's , whatever) plan going all the way through, we can't really just say that it was a poor one.

EDIT: funny this discussion is focusing so much on events from three episodes back since this thread is about 2x10.

bassman

04-Mar-2012, 09:42 PM

The barn argument is MOOT,.

Now that is funny....

AnxietyDilemma

04-Mar-2012, 09:46 PM

Your question is a good one Anxiety, but let's put add to it a little. "Who's going to try to rescue you even if it means putting the only person(s) you still have in mortal jeopardy?" Ask Andrea about the downside of moral commitment during a Zombie Apocalypse.

Ask Shane about the upside, as he lives to see another day of vying for control of the group and Lori's affection.

My position stands. I wouldn't want to follow somebody who would leave me for dead, or possibly even injure me, thus leave me for zombie bait to save his own behind.

And what I see get lost in all of this is Rick's sense of responsibility. People question his actions when he went back for Merle, and later for Sophia, but he was partly responsible for their being in that situation in the first place. He handcuffed Merle to the roof because he was a danger, and told Sophia to hide while he killed the walker. One could argue that she died because of him, but he was the only one that went after her when she took off in the first place.

Andy

04-Mar-2012, 09:56 PM

AcesandEights

04-Mar-2012, 10:44 PM

Quick question off this topic but about this episode, at the end when shane is in the car looking at the lone zombie in the field for the second time, does anybody else lose the sound half way through that song for about a minute?

Is this intentional?

That sounds familiar, but I've already erased my DVR copy. Tried a quick youtube search, but didn't want to dig too far in case of accidentally coming across spoilers for future episodes.

babomb

04-Mar-2012, 11:14 PM

I also think that when Rick left Shane behind in the bus he wanted to give him a taste of how Otis must have felt in his final moments, force some real fear and guilt into him about it Why would he do that when he agrees with Shane's decisions to shoot Otis, not only agrees but thinks he would've done the same thing and has a problem with Shane thinking he wouldn't?
Rick has NO PROBLEM with the Otis situation. He openly stated that! Rewatch the episode if you have doubts...

-- -------- Post added at 05:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:53 PM ----------

There was no way to put any more planning into the barn assault since speaking about it with Rick and Hershel would've resulted in the whole thing being stopped. Shane armed everyone beforehand. Not assaulting the barn would've been more dangerous.
You have all these walkers in the barn and nobody is allowed to walk around armed due to Hershels rules.
So Shane arms the group to protect from the walkers in the barn. What better time to assault the barn than after you arm the entire group? Was Shane gonna try and talk Hershel into allowing the assault?
Rick was going along with Hershels plans of adding more walkers into the barn. So Rick is allowing the entire group to go about unarmed, while there's over a dozen walkers in the barn. Shane arms the group before opening the doors to the barn. BUT, it's Shane who was the one endangering the group in that situation? That's the biggest stretch I've seen so far!!! That defies all logic.
Seriously, that's just ridiculous!!

ProfessorChaos

04-Mar-2012, 11:19 PM

Quick question off this topic but about this episode, at the end when shane is in the car looking at the lone zombie in the field for the second time, does anybody else lose the sound half way through that song for about a minute?

Is this intentional?

just re-watched the copy i have on my DVR, and the song plays throughout the entire sequence till it cuts to a commercial break.

SRP76

05-Mar-2012, 12:14 AM

you ask what specifically shane has done that has endangered the group and nobody can ever answer it!

I wouldn't say Rick was safe with Shane aiming his gun at his back. And I don't think Otis feels too safe right about now, either.

I don't consider Shane to be "endangering" anyone; I consider him to be ready to actively kill them himself. Shoot you in the back, feed you to zombies, whatever strikes his mood if it suits him.

babomb

05-Mar-2012, 01:24 AM

I don't see anything to suggest that what Shane does is subject to his "mood". I think that's a blatant over exaggeration of the whole thing.
Personally, I don't see Shane as an all around great guy who'll do anything for anyone, as has been oddly interjected here as motivation. I see him as a guy with a hard edged way of doing what "he thinks" is the right thing at the time. Because that's how people operate, people don't do what someone else thinks is the right thing to do at the time. Shanes way is to make the decision that keeps the most people safe. Naturally, this is subject to his own perceptions since he's a human not some robot following someone elses orders. There's no way to do things in that world that puts nobody at risk, ever, and that everyone agrees with 100% of the time. Impossible to do in the real world, let alone in that world. So you act according to your convictions.

-- -------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:15 PM ----------

So guys, for real. I'm maybe getting it wrong but are there seriously people who watch this season and then go; this Shane character is a good person who would never endanger this group of characters. In fact he's the best leader among them ...
(ok ok, trying to kill your best friend, twice, is actually for the best of the group since said former friend is really dangerous because he makes moral decisions, and the woman you attempted to rape had it coming 'cause she's so lady Macbeth - evil she dumped you for her husband she believed dead, the fact she believed him dead wasn't really a lie, and killing Jenner would never have endangered anybody, and releasing those walkers without thinking of a plan, hey that's really in everyone's best interest,...)
That isn't what anyone is saying.