TWD 2x11 "Judge, Jury, Executioner" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Roll up, roll up HPOTD'ers - three down, three to go, in the second half of season two. :)

Remember - keep all discussion of the episode WITHIN THIS THREAD - many forum members don't get to see the episode until days later (e.g. my fellow Brits and I don't get to see it until the following Friday night at the earliest - five days later), so please don't post any spoilers, general info, or allusions in other discussion topics or in the shoutbox - thanks for your consideration in this matter.

[Doc]

Well, damn! Did anybody see that ending coming! :eek:

[White_Zombie]

Well, damn! Did anybody see that ending coming! :eek:

Not in a million years, holy shit!!

[AnxietyDilemma]

I liked Dale but I think it was about time for him to go, he's better off anyways since he didn't like where things were going. It was quite a shock, which is what I love about this series. They don't feel obligated to off somebody each episode, so when it actually does happen, it is quite jarring. I mean, you have dead wood hanging around like T-Dog who has 1 line per episode, and I thought he was done in episode 1 of season 2, and I was fine with that because I saw him as zombie fodder anyways, but yet, he's still hanging around.

I'm disappointed in Rick in this episode, I knew he'd back out at the last minute and Randall needed to die. He obviously still has association in his mind with those who abandoned him, going off of what he said to Carl.

[ProfessorChaos]

wasn't very impressed with this episode, seemed like it belonged in the first half....terrible pacing, too many commercial breaks.

they should've just left randall to be devoured in town and been done with all that mess.

and wtf is up with carl? being a smart-ass to carol? just going around adventuring on his own? and taking one of darryl's guns and losing it? kid needed a good fucking smack in nearly every scene he was in.

and all dale does is fucking whine and cry, i'm truly glad they killed that miserable old bastard off. he wasn't one of my favorite characters in the comics, but he was at least likeable...i can't recall every liking him in this show...what a wasted character....good riddance, old man.

and while i'm going on about all this, my gf is busy wiping tears from her eyes over dale's death...to each his/her own i guess....but i thought this episode was pretty lame, overall.

i dunno, i guess that after 3 solid episodes with the tension being ratcheted up with each week, this episode just felt very, very dull and flat.

[Wyldwraith]

Wow,
That was a total sleeper of an episode. Felt my eyes glazing over with all the moral hand-wringing, then perked up at Carl's insanely dangerous behavior with the Walker...then WHAM! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL how they crafted that to wipe out a core character and rip Carl's guts out with guilt over it all in one blow. Just...wow.

Sadly, the scenes from next week indicate that Dale has become something of a "Moral Martyr"...which would suck, but then we see that things go all kindsa wrong with Randall despite a decision to let him go.
Still, an absolutely MONSTER ENDING. For dramatic punch it ranks up there with Rick's mad scrambled under the tank and away from the horde...and for creepiness leading up to the violence..while not eclipsing those creepy white fingers pushing out from beyond the chained-shut "Don't Open, Dead Inside!" doors, it was certainly right up there when you tie in Carl's earlier encounter with that Walker.

Rick though ::shakes head::...he was starting to show such promise. Now this backsliding. Curse you Dale, you're moralizing from beyond the grave! :P

[ProfessorChaos]

oh and does anybody who's read the comics think that:

randall may be part of the governor's group? and that maybe merle is also in the group?

[JDFP]

Well, Dale was about the only character on the show I gave a shit about - while everyone else is being wishy-washing and going whichever way the wind blows at least he stood for what he believed. Honestly, it makes me upset that Otis didn't hit Carl in a vital organ somewhere so he could have never helped to free the zombie that killed Dale as he's been nothing but a little bitch since he got better. And now because of his irresponsibility Dale, one of the few characters on the show I liked, is dead.

To be honest - I'm finding it really hard to give a shit about any of the rest of the characters on the show. I do dig Herschel and I think he's come a long way. He made the only valid alternative point as well ("Hey, can't you just take him out further?") to outright murdering the guy too. I like Carol too. I wish Lori would hurry up and die as she's nothing but a whining bitch and every time she opens her mouth I want to slap her. T-Dawg is basically useless and could basically just have his name changed to "Token" in all honesty. Daryl grows moody and emo every episode (I'm waiting for him to start wearing eye-liner as he's sulking in every scene). Andrea is ALMOST as bad as Lori. All the rest of them just run around and squabble over silly bullshit while Rick and Shane are trying to compare which of the two of them have a bigger penis.

I'm not going as far as throwing a 12 year old tantrum of: "You killed my favorite character! I'm not watching this show anymore!" as I'll certainly continue watching it as it's still the best thing on TV right now, but the characters are basically going the way of the new "Battlestar Galactica" where they are all basically shitty people doing shitty things to one another and it's just a matter of picking which character you think is less morally reprehensible. At this point in time though, honestly, I just really couldn't be bothered to care what happens to the vast majority of them (other than perhaps Carol) as I just don't really like any of them.

My hope is that in season 3 we'll get some more interesting characters in the mix as regulars since they killed off one of the few characters I gave two shits about this episode. I'm sure it'll be interesting regardless, and I'll watch regardless out of interest, but at this point in time I just can't really be bothered in what happens to any of them.

I miss Dr. Jenner - at least he was interesting.

j.p.

[AcesandEights]

Not in a million years, holy shit!!

:lol: Gotta say, it was welcome to see a major member of the group eat it and not ever see it coming. I'm partly annoyed and partly pleased how far they're going away from the original storylines, but at least it really throws everything up in the air

I actually think the episode was pretty solid, though not up to the level of the previous three. They can't all be so well balanced with action, I'm afraid; otherwise it'd just be the A-team with zombies.

They really need to mix the flow of the stories and character interactions up and now I'm just looking forward to them getting off the farm some day and getting more outsiders involved.

[SRP76]

Way to get rid of the trash. "I don't want to live in this world, waaah". Um, dummy, there hasn't been a "society" in MONTHS! What the fuck have you been seeing? If you didn't like it, why didn't you just opt out with Jenner? What, zombies everywhere trying to eat you looks like sunshine and rainbows?

I really thought Carl was going to have his man-up moment and kill Randall himself when he got in the "jailhouse", since the adults didn't have the stomach for it.

[bassman]

Pretty good episode. Unfortunately Dale met his demise long before he sould have. We now know for sure that DeMunn was the actor asking to leave after Darabont's departure. Not that there was ever any question, imo. After all, he's one of Darabont's good friends and been in all of his films...

Anyway, I think they went a good direction with Carl's attitude. He's edging closer and closer to a total badass zombie killer. On the other hand, I love how they treated Dale's character before he left. He's one of the very few voices of reason and it was nice to see him go out as a loner. While he considered it, I was shocked to see Rick be so cold about the execution. It wasn't until Carl walked in that he remembered what makes him a good man...

[AcesandEights]

Pretty good episode. Unfortunately Dale met his demise long before he sould have.

Yeah, his talent, alternate viewpoints and adherence to more humane methods will be missed, from a dramatic perspective to say the least.

That said, maybe we can move things along some now in the grand scheme of the story.

[SRP76]

Letting Nice Guy Randy go to get his farm-jacking buddies will probably be what forces our heroes off the farm, finally.

[Moon Knight]

Good episode and wow I was a bit shocked at that ending. I do admit, that ending made the entire episode come together well cause it was a really slow burn, but that's what I love about the show. They all can't be like the last two episode action wise and I'm ok with that.

I loved how Dale just didn't get shot but was brutally ripped open like that. I really did feel sorry for him, and as someone pointed out, he went alone.

I do admit, Carl was a wee bit annoying in this one but I'm glad he realized what a horrible mistake he made. Rick, too, like Shane would put it, "Pussied out". SMH.

[bassman]

Watching the episode play again, it makes me love Rick all the more. Such a good man. When Carl does wrong, he talks to him and says "Don't talk!.....think."

That's something I heard my entire childhood and has turned out to be one of the greatest gifts from my father. Even during the apocalypse, Rick is raising his son to be not just an adult, but a man. This is why Shane fails on so many levels.

[ProfessorChaos]

that talk between rick and carl was one of tonight's episode's better moments...along with the scenes hershel was in, particularly when he gave glenn his family's watch.

i get that they were trying to show how carls was experimenting with his boundaries tonight, and how he came to realize how his actions have consequences, but he really acted like a little shit in every scene he was in.

[Mr. Blue]

I really enjoyed this episode also. Sad to see Dale die, but needed to happen sooner or later. The world will never return to the way it was before even if all The Walkers went extinct. Dale was living in delusional thoughts. It was the best thing that could happen.

[rgc2005]

Was it just me or did that walker seem to be "Intelligent"?
It wiggled its way out of the mud bed, got past the fence and killed the cow, snuck up on Dale, and finally when it realized it could rip open Dale's stomach rather than his neck it seemed to smile.

[bassman]

Dale was living in delusional thoughts.

How so? I thought his reasoning was quite sound. Much like Rick, he's not only interested in survival, but also keeping his morals intact.

[Ragnarr]

Holy CRAP!!! Dale gone? Damn I love the surprises on this show!

Ragnarr's Slick Zombie Self-Defense Move #138

The muscular mechanics involved with a pinned human body twisting is greater than the muscular mechanics involved with one (undead) human's hands and arms trying to hold the pinned person down. You are welcome to test this physical fact with your self-defense partner. The pinned person (on their back) with the attacker on top grabbing with both hands. The pinned person now grabs the attacker's wrists and rolls sharply in either direction, continuing to roll (like an alligator that just chomped onto something) and releasing the attackers wrists once his grip is broken. Call to your friends to blow the bugger away with their guns.

I guess what I'm suggesting to you is that Dale could have "rolled" away from that zombie long enough to survive. UNLESS of course the show decided... "you dead Dale! You is dead!"

[bassman]

I guess what I'm suggesting to you is that Dale could have "rolled" away from that zombie long enough to survive. UNLESS of course the show decided... "you dead Dale! You is dead!"

:lol:

The show, and actor Jeff DeMunn decided long ago that his character was on his way out....

[ProfessorChaos]

dale was probably too busy thinking of how to reason with the walker about what to do about poor randall.;)

[Sammich]

The killing off of Dale was an act that symbolized events that took place outside of the story itself. I am concerned at the direction the show will take from here on out.

[bassman]

The killing off of Dale was an act that symbolized events that took place outside of the story itself. I am concerned at the direction the show will take from here on out.

Watch your back! The suits and MBA's are out for blood!

[sandrock74]

Was it just me or did that walker seem to be "Intelligent"?
It wiggled its way out of the mud bed, got past the fence and killed the cow, snuck up on Dale, and finally when it realized it could rip open Dale's stomach rather than his neck it seemed to smile.

It's just you. Someone (or something) without lips can't smile ;)

I figured that the zombie just stumbled past a section of fence that Hershel hadn't repaired just yet. I don't think it was like a super-ninja zombie or anything. It wasn't even wearing a cape!

It was a great episode. I totally didn't see Dale's death coming! Also, Glenn is from Michigan! Not sure how he found himself down in Georgia, but I'm rooting for the hometown boy!

I can't wait for next weeks episode.

[Moon Knight]

The killing off of Dale was an act that symbolized events that took place outside of the story itself. I am concerned at the direction the show will take from here on out.

We all pretty know this is why Dale was killed off so soon but let's not derail the thread with off screen politics. I'm not too concerned with the direction at all. It was done well and it was still surprising to me how it came about.

[Legion2213]

How so? I thought his reasoning was quite sound. Much like Rick, he's not only interested in survival, but also keeping his morals intact.

The group has just lost it's only truly consistant moral compass IMO, Rick is a good man, but gets hung up on leadership issues and then gets all conflicted, Hershel is another good man, but he seems to be reluctant to make any decisions since fucking up with the walkers in the barn.

And I agree with the folks who've siad that every time Carl was on screen tonight that he needed a good fucking slap...in fairness, the kid is probably a bit (okay, a lot) traumatised, what with the whole world ending and stuff, but he still annoyed the Hell out of me.

Rest in peace, Dale. :(

[Cykotic]

Dale should have stayed.... as for Carl... someone please slap the shit outta him!!!

and yes, I believe this will set up The Governor storylines very nicely

[Doc]

dale was probably too busy thinking of how to reason with the walker about what to do about poor randall.;)

The group should have sat there and argued whether it was moral to mercy kill Dale. It's what Dale would have wanted. :p

[clanglee]

Crap! I was actually floored by this. Sonuvabitch! Dale was always one of my favorite characters in the comics. . .so very sorry to see the character go in the show before his arc could run its full course. Alas.

[bassman]

I don't understand all the hate for Carl. Most of what he did in this episode felt like it was ripped straight from the comic, imo. Especially the quick scene with him in the barn just giving Randall a stone cold stare. Sure, he made a mistake by toying with the walker in the marsh, but that was really the only "wrong" thing he did in the episode. Perhaps having read the comics is swaying my opinion and if it were "real life" I would call him an idiot, but within the context and progression of his character, it felt right imo.

[rightwing401]

It really sucks that they killed Dale. Between my wife and myself, he was one of our favorite characters. I actually saw my wife gripping the edge of her seat when the walker pounced on Dale. But, while a sad ending for us, that makes this show all the more real.

Just like the comic, no one is really safe.

Yeah, what Carl did was really stupid. But I also keep reminding myself that he's still just a kid, and likely wanted his own little form of payback for having lost Sophia.

As for Randal, well...

After hearing his little speeches to both Darrel and Carl, I'm totally convinced of one unmistakable truth about him. He's a little weasel rat that will do/say anything to keep his sorry ass alive. While he may or may not have partaken in the gang rap of two young women/girls, the way he talked to Carl makes me doubt if anything he says can be trusted. If (and likely when) the group he was with shows up, Randal's decision to leave or stay with Rick and company will be based on one simple decision. Which group is stronger and will give him the best chance to stay alive.

When Rick didn't pop him, I actually cursed out loud for his chickening out. My wife asked why I was for the execution when she had originally been for putting one between Randal's eyes when he was impaled on the fence and I was the one professing to spare him. My response was simple.

"Well, now I regret that decision."

[JDFP]

Was anyone else waiting for Randall to look up during his interrogation and say:

"My real name is Henry Gale! I came here in a balloon that crashed! I swear I'm not one of the Others! I'm not like them!"

That scene just seemed eerily similar - and the whole issue of what they should do with him (kill him or spare him or what) also seems eerily similar. Hmm...

j.p.

[Thorn]

Well, damn! Did anybody see that ending coming! :eek:


I liked Dale but I think it was about time for him to go, he's better off anyways since he didn't like where things were going. It was quite a shock, which is what I love about this series. They don't feel obligated to off somebody each episode, so when it actually does happen, it is quite jarring. I mean, you have dead wood hanging around like T-Dog who has 1 line per episode, and I thought he was done in episode 1 of season 2, and I was fine with that because I saw him as zombie fodder anyways, but yet, he's still hanging around.

I'm disappointed in Rick in this episode, I knew he'd back out at the last minute and Randall needed to die. He obviously still has association in his mind with those who abandoned him, going off of what he said to Carl.

I agree with all of the bolded above. I was tired of Dale especially after this episode, I understood they were giving him a proper send off as an actor dedicating an episode to him, his message, and so on but it drug on too long. That whole moral choices crap could have played out in the house not man to man and been just as effective.


wasn't very impressed with this episode, seemed like it belonged in the first half....terrible pacing, too many commercial breaks.

they should've just left randall to be devoured in town and been done with all that mess.

and wtf is up with carl? being a smart-ass to carol? just going around adventuring on his own? and taking one of darryl's guns and losing it? kid needed a good fucking smack in nearly every scene he was in.

and all dale does is fucking whine and cry, i'm truly glad they killed that miserable old bastard off. he wasn't one of my favorite characters in the comics, but he was at least likeable...i can't recall every liking him in this show...what a wasted character....good riddance, old man.

and while i'm going on about all this, my gf is busy wiping tears from her eyes over dale's death...to each his/her own i guess....but i thought this episode was pretty lame, overall.

i dunno, i guess that after 3 solid episodes with the tension being ratcheted up with each week, this episode just felt very, very dull and flat.

Agreed. Really all this episode had for me personally was the opening with Daryl the enforced working his Sayid role as torturer for the group. Then the shock ending. I know this is a sacralidge and as much as I like Nic I really do not think he is a great director, this episode seemed like it was directed by an amateur. Even hearing him explain his thoughts behind shots an such o nthe Talking Dead was like sitting in High School cinema and arts not listening to a professional director.


Wow,
That was a total sleeper of an episode. Felt my eyes glazing over with all the moral hand-wringing, then perked up at Carl's insanely dangerous behavior with the Walker...then WHAM! Absolutely BEAUTIFUL how they crafted that to wipe out a core character and rip Carl's guts out with guilt over it all in one blow. Just...wow.

Sadly, the scenes from next week indicate that Dale has become something of a "Moral Martyr"...which would suck, but then we see that things go all kindsa wrong with Randall despite a decision to let him go.
Still, an absolutely MONSTER ENDING. For dramatic punch it ranks up there with Rick's mad scrambled under the tank and away from the horde...and for creepiness leading up to the violence..while not eclipsing those creepy white fingers pushing out from beyond the chained-shut "Don't Open, Dead Inside!" doors, it was certainly right up there when you tie in Carl's earlier encounter with that Walker.

Rick though ::shakes head::...he was starting to show such promise. Now this backsliding. Curse you Dale, you're moralizing from beyond the grave! :P

Agree again with the bolded above, I think there is no answer here but killing the guy he knows Maggie and her farm, he can lead his people to the farm, he will go back to his people for safety of course... who wouldn't? Or they find him accidentally... whatever. He is clearly not a good guy and the group, and my family needs to be protected. He needs to be executed.

You can't keep prisoners around draining resources, energy, and man power, and you can't risk him escaping. He was at the very LEAST willfully compliant in the sexual assault of teenage girls where a father was made to observe. This is cruelty if he was a man worth having around he would not have played a part in it. I of course feel he is understating his role, and who wouldn't after being tortured and having Shane in your face?

Rick dropping the ball here quite clearly.

As much as I like Dale's message this episode had me disliking the guy a lot, and it was a failing of writing or directing in my opinion because when he died I was shocked but I was not sad in anyway. His message was too broad, to grand and too black and white.

Also eff' Carl I hate that little prick, he was cool in the comic fun to watch develop into what he becomes, this Carl is just annoying.

[Wyldwraith]

First,
Rick didn't back out on shooting Randall because Carl showing up "made him remember he was a good man." Rick spells his decision out to Lori, and I quote: "He (Carl) followed us. He wanted to WATCH".
Choosing not to shoot Randall at that time (or ever now, thanks to Dale's much-needed death) was entirely based on Rick being deeply concerned for the effect the execution would have on Carl, and not because of something such as it being scary/traumatizing for Carl, but because after his "No she's (Sophia) not in Heaven. Heaven is just another lie, and you're an IDIOT if you believe in it!" confrontation with Carrol the whole "Do it Dad, do it" as he stood in the doorway watching Rick with his .357 all but pressed to the forehead of a blindfolded, kneeling man begging for his life...that set off a red flag for Rick that Carl's recent behavior is for much deeper reasons than simple childish acting out. Bottom line? Rick feared that shooting Randall after Carl indicated he wanted to see Rick do just that would "cement" this absent-old world-morality in favor of post-apocalyptic pragmatism outlook in Carl's mind.

Second, while Rick may have effectively curtailed/disciplined Carl on the basic issue of mouthing off to Carrol. Nothing Rick said addressed the reasons/feelings CARL had developed that made him go off about Heaven being a lie in the first place. In fact, Rick's major line was essentially apologism for Carrol believing Sophia's in Heaven. "Carrol just lost her little girl. She wants...needs to believe she lives on somewhere in some way." Yes, it explains to Carl why Carrol said and believes as she did, but Rick's omission/failure to reach out to Carl concerning the boy's denial of the afterlife as a lie undermines Rick's intended message to Carl.

Basically in Carl's current mindset, what he would have taken from such statements by his father is that where he (Carl) went wrong was in EXPRESSING his disbelief concerning Heaven in a way that was hurtful to Carrol. Otherwise, there's every reason to believe that Carl is still convinced that Sophia is nothing but worm food, as is Dale now (albeit because of him (Carl)) in his mind. The root cause of Carl's shift in demeanor/behavior/outlook wasn't addressed by Rick, and that was very believable, because what father WOULD know what to say upon recognizing that the Apocalypse his child is being forced to grow up in is robbing his son of his innocence and forcing him to grow up much too fast.

Lastly, I completely agree that Randall couldn't be any more of a weasel if he tried. Rick should have killed him...Hell, Rick should have left him behind in the first place. The group's meeting proved that there was NO VIABLE means of ensuring the group's safety from the ongoing threat posed by Randall. Worse, Rick's backing out..in light of the fact that Andrea had backed Dale about letting Randall live, only to see Dale gutted before she could even find him to tell him that Rick had chosen to spare him (Randall)...is quite likely to drive Andrea back towards Shane's methodology. Andrea's core motivation is not wanting to be afraid because of personal weakness on her part, so there's a fair chance she'll read Dale's demise as a result of him being a man who couldn't accept the reality of the world they now live in.

And yes, it would have been eight kinds of badass had Carl listened to all of Randall's attempted smooth-talking and then just shot him repeatedly...then calmly step forward and carefully squeeze off a round into the back of Randall's head.

[AcesandEights]

Soooo, out of interest, does anyone have any other ideas on how to have handled this situation with Randall? Letting him go: problem. Keeping him prisoner: problem. Dropping him off further away: problem.

I have added a poll.

[Ragnarr]

Tough call really. IF there are indeed 30 hostiles, IF Randall is loyal enough to the hostiles to lead them to the farm, IF Randall really knows where the farm's location is, IF the main characters do not have enough food to spare in order to keep Randall prisoner... well, they actually DO have enough food for Randall now considering that Dale will no longer be needing any. Hmm...

[sandrock74]

I think dropping him off really far away, like a hundred miles away, especially if he were blindfolded, he would NEVER get back to the area! Not in the current state of the world. Roads routinely blocked by cars, wandering zombies, etc.

Heck, if someone dropped me off a hundred miles from home and I didn't know what direction we had gone in, I know I'd be confused! I'd be able to find my way home, but thats with things running like normal. In a post zombie apocalypse world, you're pretty much stuck in the general area you find yourself in.

By the way, does anyone else think Randal is lying about having gone to school with Maggie? She hasn't said anything about it. He could have easily gotten her name while he was there for the week, resting up from his injuries, and made up the connection in the hopes it would buy him more time. Maggie didn't recognize him from school? They don't live in a highly populated area, how many classmates would she have had? I'm just not buying it...

[bassman]

First,
Rick didn't back out on shooting Randall because Carl showing up "made him remember he was a good man." Rick spells his decision out to Lori, and I quote: "He (Carl) followed us. He wanted to WATCH".
Choosing not to shoot Randall at that time (or ever now, thanks to Dale's much-needed death) was entirely based on Rick being deeply concerned for the effect the execution would have on Carl

That's exactly what I meant with the "good man" comment, btw. Rick doesn't want his boy to become a stone cold killer. He wants him to retain a sense of what the world once was. While Rick agreed that Randall needed to be put down for the good of the group, it wasn't until Carl walked in that he was able to step back from himself for a moment and realise what he was doing. Watching your son walk in to witness an execution and also say "do it" would be a sobering moment for any parent, and especially with Rick it reminded him what kind of man he was and should be.

[thxleo]

By the way, does anyone else think Randal is lying about having gone to school with Maggie? She hasn't said anything about it. He could have easily gotten her name while he was there for the week, resting up from his injuries, and made up the connection in the hopes it would buy him more time. Maggie didn't recognize him from school? They don't live in a highly populated area, how many classmates would she have had? I'm just not buying it...

No, he really went to school with her. I had a conversation with Greg the other day and he was telling me about a scene that was either shot and deleted or it was in the script and they decided not to shoot it - I can't even remember now - where Maggie is looking at her high school year book with Glenn and she shows him Randall's photo in the year book. She makes some kind of comment about him being a nerd and not really noticing him, something Glenn relates to. It sounded like a nice scene and Greg said it was tough to let it go.
But now that they didn't include it they could always just say Randall was lying, but I doubt they would bother to even think of it.

[bassman]

Maybe my memory is off, but didn't Randall also say that he and Maggie didn't know each other? It may be a rural area, but I think it's certainly possible that they went to school together and never really crossed paths...

[Thorn]

Maybe my memory is off, but didn't Randall also say that he and Maggie didn't know each other? It may be a rural area, but I think it's certainly possible that they went to school together and never really crossed paths...

That was what Randall said yes, your memory is spot on.

It is a tough situation, I would never want to rob my daughter of her child hood. But in this world, growing up fast, might mean survival you just have to temper his rapid maturation with good parenting and instruction.

It could mean saving his life, or Carl saving Rick's or Lori's or the group one day. You don't want to see a child hard and cold but lifeless is a worse option.

I feel strongly the kid should be shot, he is clearly a danger. Leading him 100 miles away is a poor option personally, you risk your own people to do it, and that is unacceptable. Car breaks down, zombie herd, bad weather, raiders... whatever. I am not asking one of my people to do it and I wouldn't do it either.

[acealive1]

carl has to be the dumbest kid ever. most kids would be SCARED SHITLESS to wander around while theres zombies limping all over the area let alone after you got your chest blown out by otis. then he smarts off to carol? yea my mom woulda slapped my lips off of my face.

didnt see the dale death coming as it happened alot differently and further out in the comics.


if they're changing this, maybe carl should be shot on accident by shane or eaten.

and just like rick, daryl isnt stupid. he goes off enough alone so he'll find his gun and put two and two together about how the zombie got to the farm.

[rongravy]

Wow, amazing show. Here I was sitting there telling my family that Shane was gonna get it, then Dale ends up spilling his guts instead...
I wish we all had monitors set up to share our reactions with other HPOTD viewers, I'd love to see it. I thought for sure they'd get to Dale in time.
As far as what Ragnarr said about him rolling out from under the zombie: as soon as he'd go for both wrists, that mouth would've found flesh. Also, I'm nearly 40 and would probably slip a disc doing that, so imagine Dale's weak ass trying to get out of that.
Randall: I wasn't sure about him until his chat with Carl. He offered to take him to his group, so he's clearly still thinking about them in a "They'll come get me soon enough" way. Should've never brought him back.
Carl: Annoying little bastard. That's all I wanna say on that.

[ProfessorChaos]

I don't understand all the hate for Carl....Sure, he made a mistake by toying with the walker in the marsh, but that was really the only "wrong" thing he did in the episode...

how about taking the handgun from daryl's bike and subsequently losing it in the marsh? you'd think that being nearly devoured a few times, having the only other kid get infected and put down right before your eyes a few weeks back, and being shot would keep the little fella grounded in the reality of the situation and close to the safety of adults, but instead he's walking around like he's fucking clint eastwood just cuz he gets to wear his dad's hat. he needs to redeem himself next episode by getting his head out of his ass.

i also find it amusing that lori's up for "apocalyptic mother of the year award" (guess carol's disqualified, oops), given her speeches to andrea and maggie over the last few episodes about "holding things together back here" and all that jazz...you'd think keeping an eye on the single child of the group, your own son, would be near the top of the priority list. yet carl has time to belittle carol, talk back to his dad, sneak into the place they're keeping randall, steal a firearm, toy around with a walker and almost get killed, etc.

and how many lines of dialogue has t-dogg had since the season resumed? less than 10? probably should have just killed him off last night as well, if they plan to include another character from the comics who's name also starts with T.

[Kaos]

Carl needs to be straightened out.

He really is the reason Dale got killed, and Carl will likely get someone else killed too. He stole a gun from that motorcycle bag and left it with the zombie. Something tells me someone is going to go for the gun in the bag when they need it and it won't be there.

[SRP76]

If this dude went to school with Maggie, just have her dig out her yearbook. She's a chick, so you know she bought and kept it. Find out if Randall is in fact who he says, first. If he's not in there, well... you got some explaining to do, son.

[Wyldwraith]

It's difficult for me to understand why they're backing off on good sense here,
Randall is OBVIOUSLY not the sort you can turn loose. Releasing him has all the pitfalls Lori & Andrea mentioned. There just isn't another feasible option, they all know it, but they don't want to face up to the reality now that Dale's dead.

Sort of weird, but there...

[toxic]

Why is Randall particularly bad?

Yeah, he lied to Carl. Sorry, but being tortured/imprisoned and waiting for them to get the nerve to execute him gives him carte blanche to lie his ass off in any way he thinks will help him survive.

Can't believe people are taking moral offense at that. Maybe, you know, before they tortured him, he shouldn't lie. After that he can kill a few people during his escape and I can't really blame him.

[SRP76]

Why is Randall particularly bad?


Running with rapists and thugs who send out advance guards to try to weasel and threaten their way onto Herschel's farm, and gleefully trying to gun down Rick, Herschel, and Glenn.

Sorry, but I'd kill that little twat for shooting at me, too. Actually, I'd have never saved his ass when he impaled himself on the fence, but that's another discussion.

[krisvds]

Good episode,though I still have some trouble with the overall writing on the show.
Rick does go quite fast from 'let's save the poor injured kid from the walkers even though he just shot at us' to 'there is no other option then to put a bullet in his head.' I would like to have seen that handled a bit better. At the moment there is just no way for the group to be absolutely sure this kid will put them in jeopardy.
Now this is TWD, so the chance little Randall is a lying weasel and that he will become a threat is very big but still,...

It's like Dale said (paraphrasing); should they kill this kid for a crime he might not even commit? I think no.
Sad to see Dale go as well. Just like JD said; he's one of the very few on the show willing to stand up for what he believes to be true, wether you agree with him or not. The majority of this group came across as cowards. In the end Rick has to take responsibility.

Had no problem with all the moralising this episode. (at times the dialogue felt like reading one of the threads in this forum) It's 'quiet' moments like this that will make the inevitable explosion of violence that will (i guess) be part of this season's finale hit all the harder.
Had no problem with Carl's actions either. In a world like this the kid's actions rang true. Though he did behave like an asshole, that's what kids often do, even in the 'real' world. Plus, as Bassman pointed out; when he sat there eying Randall that was the Carl we all know from the comics.

BTW; had it been me being tortured, blindfolded, almost executed I'd do anything to get the hell out of there ... Just suppose he had good intentions all along. After this episode they would be gone, by the groups own doing.

[fishfast41]

I sure didn't see that coming either. Oh well, now maybe they can have T-Dog do something more important than be the token black guy.

[LouCipherr]

My take:

It should've been Shane, not Dale.

Carl has become an insufferable little prick. Hopefully he feels completely guilty for what he did to Dale (indirectly, I guess). He should be next... after Shane.

ALL of the humans are starting to piss me off. I find myself rooting for the zombies now rather than the humans. F*ck 'em.


I'm still not that impressed with where Season 2 has gone and is going. Started off strong, then meandered looking for the little girl - and now I feel like they're just wasting time being on the farm. They need to move things along. I'm getting bored.

[Thorn]

I sure didn't see that coming either. Oh well, now maybe they can have T-Dog do something more important than be the token black guy.


Sadly I think that is what the T stands for, I find the lack of use of the character frustrating and annoying. I do not particularly care for him but I was not given a chance or a reason to. He is a non-entity.

[Legion2213]

Has he even had any dialogue since cutting his arm way back on the highway?

Not really fussed on him to be honest, but they should kill him off or give him more to do and make him a bit more interesting/involved in stuff, because he does look like the token black dude at the moment...not good for him, not good for the show.

-- -------- Post added at 09:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 PM ----------


Running with rapists and thugs who send out advance guards to try to weasel and threaten their way onto Herschel's farm, and gleefully trying to gun down Rick, Herschel, and Glenn.

Sorry, but I'd kill that little twat for shooting at me, too. Actually, I'd have never saved his ass when he impaled himself on the fence, but that's another discussion.

I think we saw the real Randall when he smashed that female walker...nasty woman hating side going on there...the sort of mentality that you'd expect from a guy who runs with thugs, murderers and rapists.

(I voted to mallet the fucker, he'll bring danger down on the group)

[bassman]

Has he even had any dialogue since cutting his arm way back on the highway?

"Who the hell is that?!?"(referring to Randall tied up in the car). Not much dialogue other than that.

They said on Talking Dead that the cow Dale discovers was originally supposed to be one of the group, but they changed it in the eleventh hour. I wonder if that was meant to be T-Dog lying dead but they decided to keep him on after Dale's departure due to Jeff DeMunn demanding out of his contract? It almost appears like that could be the same thing with his obviously very serious wound in 201. Perhaps Darabont had intended for him to go early in this season, but after adjusting/deleting/reshooting due to the scuffle, they've decided to keep him on longer and he has nothing to do with current story?

[Legion2213]

Thats pretty interesting, Bass. I don't follow anything other than the show itself, so I'd not heard that.

Still think it's a pretty shoddy way to treat the actor though...the farm girls have had more dialogue and input into the group than he has lately. The only person more unused is the lad who lives on the farm, can't even remember his name..."token farm kid" or something. :)

[rongravy]

I'm getting bored.
Yeah, you and Dave Navarro.
:elol:

[fishfast41]

Even though I liked Dale,having him gone will leave room to grow the other characters. It always bugs me when I see this in TV and movies. Things are much more interesting when each character has episodes that feature them. We've seen shows focusing on most of the others, fleshing them out to be real people. I also noticed in Dale's case,even though he wasn't featured specifically as Daryl was,for example, he did play a large part in a lot of episodes, so the net effect was to flesh him out ,too. T-Dog and the others need this treatment as well. I think it will improve the show. One more obvious thing I just notice rewatching the episode right now,lol. This one features Carl quite a bit and shows more about him and how the zombie apocalypse is affecting him. Yeah, he's being a little jerk, true, but kids are pretty adaptable, and this behavior strikes me as realistic for a boy his age in that situation. LOL This hits me as funny...These people have obviously never seen Night of the Living Dead,or they would know what not to do... like taking refuge in a farmhouse out in the sticks :)

[Legion2213]

Even though I liked Dale,having him gone will leave room to grow the other characters. It always bugs me when I see this in TV and movies. Things are much more interesting when each character has episodes that feature them. We've seen shows focusing on most of the others, fleshing them out to be real people. I also noticed in Dale's case,even though he wasn't featured specifically as Daryl was,for example, he did play a large part in a lot of episodes, so the net effect was to flesh him out ,too. T-Dog and the others need this treatment as well. I think it will improve the show. One more obvious thing I just notice rewatching the episode right now,lol. This one features Carl quite a bit and shows more about him and how the zombie apocalypse is affecting him. Yeah, he's being a little jerk, true, but kids are pretty adaptable, and this behavior strikes me as realistic for a boy his age in that situation. LOL This hits me as funny...These people have obviously never seen Night of the Living Dead,or they would know what not to do... like taking refuge in a farmhouse out in the sticks :)

In fairness to the obnoxious little brat, his "formative zombie education" came from Shane...who we know isn't the most compasionate or decent sort of guy.

Sad thing is, he was just a little kid before the last episode, this last one turned him into a total monster for a lot of folks it seems. (although he did say he would have chopped down Sophie in a previous episode which showed how he was becoming a product of his enviroment)

[thxleo]

They said on Talking Dead that the cow Dale discovers was originally supposed to be one of the group, but they changed it in the eleventh hour. I wonder if that was meant to be T-Dog lying dead but they decided to keep him on after Dale's departure due to Jeff DeMunn demanding out of his contract? It almost appears like that could be the same thing with his obviously very serious wound in 201. Perhaps Darabont had intended for him to go early in this season, but after adjusting/deleting/reshooting due to the scuffle, they've decided to keep him on longer and he has nothing to do with current story?

The character that Dale was originally going to discover was Jimmy. Greg's the one that said to change it from Jimmy to one of the cows. I think it was a good decision.

[bassman]

The character that Dale was originally going to be discover was Jimmy. Greg's the one that said to change it from Jimmy to one of the cows. I think it was a good decision.

Well hell....Jimmy is just as useless as T-Dog! :lol:

Has that kid even been around since the barn massacre? I can't recall seeing him since then....

[thxleo]

Well hell....Jimmy is just as useless as T-Dog! :lol:

Has that kid even been around since the barn massacre? I can't recall seeing him since then....

I'm not sure, I don't think so.

When I spoke with Greg last week I mentioned about the T-Dog character not being a factor at all and he didn't say much. I could tell he thought it was a problem, but he said at least he had more to do in the next episode. This goes on Glen Mazzara as far as I'm concerned. By the way, I'm not in this camp that gets bored easily unless there is a zombie showing up every few seconds. I actually enjoy character development and allowing a story to unfold slowly. Greg and I talked about that as well, about some of the complaining from fans and he said Mazzara takes complaints like that to heart, so I hope he doesn't start forcing stuff in an attempt to give in to fans.

[Legion2213]

I'm not sure, I don't think so.

When I spoke with Greg last week I mentioned about the T-Dog character not being a factor at all and he didn't say much. I could tell he thought it was a problem, but he said at least he had more to do in the next episode. This goes on Glen Mazzara as far as I'm concerned. By the way, I'm not in this camp that gets bored easily unless there is a zombie showing up every few seconds. I actually enjoy character development and allowing a story to unfold slowly. Greg and I talked about that as well, about some of the complaining from fans and he said Mazzara takes complaints like that to heart, so I hope he doesn't start forcing stuff in an attempt to give in to fans.

I'm okay with slow moving stuff...like nBSG, seemed to be loads of drama, but when they cut loose with some space-porn action it was orgasmic...same for TWD, slow start to S2, with only a few encounters, then they reward us with the barn massacre mid season finale. Delayed gratification is the best kind.

[fishfast41]

Maybe after what happened to Dale, they will get smart and not wander around by themselves.

[JDFP]

Here's something to ponder.

If Shane had been one holding the gun to Henry Gale... err... Randall's head when Carl was standing at the door and Carl had yelled: "Do it, Shane!" - do you think Shane would have hesitated in the slightest?

My first instinct is to say no because he despises Henry Gale... err, I mean Randall. But Carl is basically like a surrogate son to Shane as well. As much as Shane is a gung-ho "get shit done that needs doin' done!" sort of guy, I have to ponder whether he would have hesitated a moment or not.

As far as T-Dawg (God, I hate that name) - perhaps he should have an episode centered around him. It could show how he's set up a little camp for himself away from the others with a stash of Shakespeare or something he's reading unbeknownst to everyone else.

j.p.

[Legion2213]

Maybe after what happened to Dale, they will get smart and not wander around by themselves.

Apart from Daryl...who is just too bad-ass to need any company. :D

(you make a fair point though...it's the downfall of every horror/zombie/slasher media ever made).

[fishfast41]

I agree, slow but sure is the better way for character development. The issue with some characters not being developed is maybe we have too many characters?

-- -------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:29 PM ----------

yep, legion, I made this point before in another thread awhile back. Given this situation, their security should be wayyyy better. Goes all the way back to the party at the first camp where Amy and Ed were killed. At least now they mostly carry weapons while wandering around alone. lol Seriously,though, our heroes don't act as though they are in an extremely dangerous situation, and this doesn't seem realistic to me.

[bassman]

I'm not in this camp that gets bored easily unless there is a zombie showing up every few seconds. I actually enjoy character development and allowing a story to unfold slowly. Greg and I talked about that as well, about some of the complaining from fans and he said Mazzara takes complaints like that to heart, so I hope he doesn't start forcing stuff in an attempt to give in to fans.

Oh, no! I also hope he doesn't take those complaints too seriously. It's a shame that the character development fans seem to be in the minority while the "MOAR zombie blood and gutzzzz" fans seem to have the loudest voice. I'm sure they were really happy with Dave Navarro's presence on Talking Dead a few weeks back....

[AcesandEights]

:lol:

The show, and actor Jeff DeMunn decided long ago that his character was on his way out....

Why couldn't they just do it soap opera style...

"The part of Dale will now be played by...Alan Thicke."

Problem solved :p

[rongravy]

Why couldn't they just do it soap opera style...

"The part of Dale will now be played by...Alan Thicke."

Problem solved :p

Or they could Two and a Half Men it and throw Ashton in there...
Then everyone would want Dale(Ashton) dead.

[Neil]

Enjoyable episode again!

The final scene bothered me in two ways:-
1) I dislike ninja zombies just appearing stealth like next to people. Would have made more sense if Dale had been distracted by the cow, bent down to look at it, and the camera panned around to expose the zombie lying/feeding on the ground on the other side?
2) I did think the zombie on Dale needed to go more blood crazy in order to rip into him. It should have gone a little mad/frenzied and frantically clawed at his clothes/belly. At it was, it just seemed to go in like Dale's belly was jelly!

Also, it does wind me up how people (eg: Carl) just wonder around as if there's no threat at all. Would you be letting your child be wondering off into woods with zombies in there? Hmmm...


RE the poll, really torn between the first two options. I found myself switching between,' no option but to shoot him,' and 'you can't shoot what might just be a misguided boy in a world gone mad!'


all of the humans are starting to piss me off. I find myself rooting for the zombies now rather than the humans. F*ck 'em.lol!!

-- -------- Post added at 08:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 AM ----------


Carl needs to be straightened out.

He really is the reason Dale got killed.Yes, and of course Dale himself knows that!

[Thorn]

I find the thread interesting in it's results, I am curious if people think the fact I support killing the kid goes against my normal standpoint on such matters. I am a hold onto your values, and do the right thing kind of a guy but in this case, at least to me the survival of the group overrides that. The kid is a clear threat and can not be trusted for all the reasons detailed above. Leaving him alone 18 miles away is cruel really, he wouldn't make it alone and would be ripped to shreds merciful execution.

While we do not know what his crimes are in a lot of cases we do know he runs with a evil element based on what he was willing to confess (and people usually downplay that and their role based on my understanding of psychology), he did try to kill members of "our group", and beyond that he is a horrible actor... just horrible.

I hope I am not alone in my assessment of that his delivery, his accent, his reactions, emoting all are amateur level at best. If this kid stays around I am going to be unhappy. Funny too how we see a Benjamin Linus, and a Sayid character appear from lost at the same time ;)

[Neil]

While we do not know what his crimes are in a lot of cases we do know he runs with a evil element based on what he was willing to confess (and people usually downplay that and their role based on my understanding of psychology), he did try to kill members of "our group", and beyond that he is a horrible actor... just horrible.
But consider this. He was probably alone when discovered by 'his group'. Indeed they may have even saved him. Given this is it surprising that he'd at least stay with them if only to increase his chances of survival.

Yes he fired on 'our group', but in reality all he knew was 'our group' was shooting at (& had killed) some of 'his group'...

Not really quite so black and white, and makes killing someone all the more questionable?

[krisvds]

But consider this. He was probably alone when discovered by 'his group'. Indeed they may have even saved him. Given this is it surprising that he'd at least stay with them if only to increase his chances of survival.

Yes he fired on 'our group', but in reality all he knew was 'our group' was shooting at (& had killed) some of 'his group'...

Not really quite so black and white, and makes killing someone all the more questionable?

Exactly. You can't exactly blame the kid for lying either; he was tortured and now almost executed.
Dale's question still unanswered; can you kill someone for a crime they might not even commit? Based on what?

What if he's telling the truth? If I were in his shoes I'd want to get back at our beloved 'group.' Bunch of cowardly inhumane bastards ;)

[shootemindehead]

Good ep all round.

Sorry to see Dale go, as he was one of my faves. Although he was wrong, wrong, wrong, about killing the guy in the barn.

He's dangerous and everything about him suggests danger. To be honest, I'd have popped him when he was still on the fence and in any case, there was no way anyone would have got his leg off of that spike. Not the way it was shaped.

Either way, it seems that this episode and the characters motivations were just specifically written to get Dale out of the show (as obviously it was either Carol or Dale who wanted out after Darabont left, they're both good friends of his), so to me it appeared a little forced.

The teleporting zombie wasn't handled well, I agree with Neil and it tore into Dale's with with silly ease. He really should have tore a chunk out of his neck or something.

[krisvds]

Good ep all round.

Sorry to see Dale go, as he was one of my faves. Although he was wrong, wrong, wrong, about killing the guy in the barn.

He's dangerous and everything about him suggests danger. To be honest, I'd have popped him when he was still on the fence and in any case, there was no way anyone would have got his leg off of that spike. Not the way it was shaped.

Either way, it seems that this episode and the characters motivations were just specifically written to get Dale out of the show (as obviously it was either Carol or Dale who wanted out after Darabont left, they're both good friends of his), so to me it appeared a little forced.

The teleporting zombie wasn't handled well, I agree with Neil and it tore into Dale's with with silly ease. He really should have tore a chunk out of his neck or something.

Well, you're probably right about him being dangerous. that's because you and i and everyone posting here have years of genre cinema knowledge.
Those people in TWD haven't even seen NOTLD!

Seriously; is the fact that someone 'suggests' danger enough to execute him? The only dangerous thing the kid has done is to shoot at our group after they had just killed two of the guys he was running with. Hardly surprising.

But yeah, given the nature of this show and its source material little Randall will probably turn out to be a threat. Little doubt about it. For the people on the farm there is just no way of knowing that. And killing someone based on a hunch is just plain wrong. Evil even.

[Neil]

The teleporting zombie wasn't handled well, I agree with Neil and it tore into Dale's with with silly ease. He really should have tore a chunk out of his neck or something.
Sloppy writing/directing that bit TBH - Shame!

Sort of felt a bit like, and as ill-thoughtout as, the end of the webisodes where the mother having been bitten just lets herself needlessly be attacked for no reason...

[krisvds]

Dale being ripped apart was kinda silly, I have to agree. The gut tearing seemed like a nod to classic Romero feeding scenes but wasn't handled all that well.
Dale's look in his eyes during those final moments and the overall acting there was top notch though

[sandrock74]

Exactly. You can't exactly blame the kid for lying either; he was tortured and now almost executed.
Dale's question still unanswered; can you kill someone for a crime they might not even commit? Based on what?


Fear.

[Eyebiter]

When the kid was digging around with the motorcycle saddle bags, thought he was going to find Merle's severed hand instead of the handgun.

[shootemindehead]

Well, you're probably right about him being dangerous. that's because you and i and everyone posting here have years of genre cinema knowledge.
Those people in TWD haven't even seen NOTLD!

Seriously; is the fact that someone 'suggests' danger enough to execute him? The only dangerous thing the kid has done is to shoot at our group after they had just killed two of the guys he was running with. Hardly surprising.

But yeah, given the nature of this show and its source material little Randall will probably turn out to be a threat. Little doubt about it. For the people on the farm there is just no way of knowing that. And killing someone based on a hunch is just plain wrong. Evil even.

Normally, no. But, in this case I'd say yes. Especially when there is a base to protect and the danger he (and his group) poses is one of rape and death and that's enough to justify his execution. If one was on the move constantly, I wouldn't be that bothered with letting him go. However, it's known he's from a dodgy group, that pulled guns on Rick and Co and who were involved in some brutality with teenage girls. Plus, throw in the fact that he was happily firing off shots at Rick and Co before he fell off the roof. I wouldn't be inclined to think he was just some "poor kid" etc and I'd have no reason to believe that he wouldn't share the same mindset as the other people he's been running with.

But, then again, by this stage, I'd have killed Merle, Shane and Ed. :D

Also, my suspicions that T-Dog :rolleyes: was nothing more than an clichéd tick box "character" has certainly been born out in this series. An utterly useless character, that I'd almost reckon is still in the show because the producers are afraid of having the racist card thrown at him if he was absent.

[Thorn]

But consider this. He was probably alone when discovered by 'his group'. Indeed they may have even saved him. Given this is it surprising that he'd at least stay with them if only to increase his chances of survival.

Yes he fired on 'our group', but in reality all he knew was 'our group' was shooting at (& had killed) some of 'his group'...

Not really quite so black and white, and makes killing someone all the more questionable?

That is a valid point, and I can not argue it if his story is to be taken at face value.

[AcesandEights]

I tell you one that would make it easier for me to lazy-boy quarterback the group's decisions: if they had some plans. Not just short term A to B plans that they are forced to throw together in reaction to an immediate need, but real plans with contingencies etc.

Are they really planning to settle in at the farmhouse, or not? Is it feasible to do so long term, or is it just "for now"? I'd really like a little more insight into what the characters are thinking in this respect, especially now that Hershel's stance on so many matters have changed and he seems more amenable to the group.

[krisvds]

Also, my suspicions that T-Dog :rolleyes: was nothing more than an clichéd tick box "character" has certainly been born out in this series. An utterly useless character, that I'd almost reckon is still in the show because the producers are afraid of having the racist card thrown at him if he was absent.

I'm afraid you're right. the poor guy is just there. Even if he'd get eaten the viewer would just shrug. Still; he never should have been in the show in the first place. What an awfull character.

[Legion2213]

This poor sap wouldn't last 5 seconds with "our group" would he?

He'd be dragged out onto a field and thrown to his knees and executed before he could say "I went to school with Minion Zombie" or whatever :D

-- -------- Post added at 07:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 PM ----------


I'm afraid you're right. the poor guy is just there. Even if he'd get eaten the viewer would just shrug. Still; he never should have been in the show in the first place. What an awfull character.

They are slowly developing Glen, no reason they couldn't have invested a bit of time in "Token Dog" as well.

Current status quo is shitty for the actor, and lays the show wide open for the race industry to make noises.

[Wyldwraith]

Maybe I'm just abnormal,
It seems so patently, unavoidably obvious to me that the One True Way to deal with possible lethal threats to one's self and one's friends/loved ones is with Lethal Force. Kill a young man for a crime he might never commit? No. I'd kill him for the crime he might very well commit.

Yes, finding yourself in a situation where society is no longer around to provide underpaid garbage-men/women of human waste, or rather waste-humans (police officers) would be unpleasant and distasteful. Sooner or later, almost every single living person remaining after a civilization-destroying event will find themselves needing to kill someone for their protection and/or the protection of family/friends/allies whose guilt/identity as a deadly threat cannot be 100% determined. Yet stop and consider this:

That's been the norm for 99% of the time humanity has been around. Even once societies did begin to practice incarceration as punishment and crime-deterrent, the conditions in their prisons amounted to slow death sentences 10x worse than simply being executed in most cases. Everyone knew that, and yet no substantive effort was made until the late 19th/early 20th century to begin elevating prison conditions above dungeon-squalor.

So continue that logic to its logical conclusion. The group should keep Randall chained up in a barn for the rest of his natural life? And this is better than a quick bullet?

How?

[bassman]

I enjoy reading all posts on this forum, but damn.....I would definitely NOT like to be left alone with some of you....

[sandrock74]

I enjoy reading all posts on this forum, but damn.....I would definitely NOT like to be left alone with some of you....

Kind of what I was thinking! lol

[krisvds]

Maybe I'm just abnormal,
It seems so patently, unavoidably obvious to me that the One True Way to deal with possible lethal threats to one's self and one's friends/loved ones is with Lethal Force. Kill a young man for a crime he might never commit? No. I'd kill him for the crime he might very well commit.

You would kill someone for a crime they might very well commit huh? Lethal force the only patently obvious way to deal with possible threats?
wow. I'm not even going to argue against that.

[Neil]

You would kill someone for a crime they might very well commit huh? Lethal force the only patently obvious way to deal with possible threats?
wow. I'm not even going to argue against that.
Not as black and white as that is it?

The argument is the young lad may well cause a group of 30 men to invade the farm by force, probably resulting in the death (& rape) of numerous of the group.

Do you risk it?

[AcesandEights]

You would kill someone for a crime they might very well commit huh? Lethal force the only patently obvious way to deal with possible threats?
wow. I'm not even going to argue against that.

Yeah, it's not an easy situation the group is in. My problem with killing the guy outright is due to not just a moral factor, but a tactical one. Once you exhaust the Randall option by killing him, you've painted yourself into a corner. So it's not just callous, but short-sighted.



So continue that logic to its logical conclusion. The group should keep Randall chained up in a barn for the rest of his natural life? And this is better than a quick bullet?

How?

This is a strawman. I haven't seen anyone say anything that would indicate literally or implicitly keeping Randall a prisoner for the rest of his life. I assume, like myself, most people saying he should be kept a prisoner are looking for better options and more information to unfold.

The group should be looking outward for a decision, instead of just inward soul-searching. They're operating pretty much in the blind and once they kill this kid there's no taking it back. Keeping him under lock and key till they have a better idea of the situation (for example, whether this other group has settled into the area, is actively looking for 'our' group of survivors or has apparently moved on). The group has the means to keep Randall prisoner for a few weeks and the manpower used to keep an eye on him and his holding area can double for part of the watch the farm needs to have kept up around the clock.

That said, it's a tv show, so yeah...no matter what the characters do there'll be a dramatic complication.

[Thorn]

Not as black and white as that is it?

The argument is the young lad may well cause a group of 30 men to invade the farm by force, probably resulting in the death (& rape) of numerous of the group.

Do you risk it?

You really can't in my opinion, the kid at the end of the day will need support to get by he seems really mentally unbalanced and not trustworthy. I base that off his stabbing of the zombie head over and over as a serial killer might or someone with extreme anger issues. After the threat was over. Now sure we would all hate the zombie, but that sort of thing is usually out of scope in that scenario.Then his approaching of a child to try and win him over, desperate sure but anyone who would do that is someone you keep an eye on. His story with Shane, and the unknown factors. Does he really know Maggie or did he and his group kil land rape someone who knew Maggie that they may have seen on the run to town with Glenn...

Let's say you let him go, he finds his way back to the group... even if he wasn't a bad guy before he might have developed a hatred of Rick and company by how he was treated or need to use that as leverage to get back into the group, or further cement his place in it.

Either way the guy to me represents a high risk and when you are talking about your survival and that of your group you can not be too careful. There are enough question marks here at this point that in my mind make it a situation where the guy has to die.

[AcesandEights]

You really can't in my opinion, the kid at the end of the day will need support to get by he seems really mentally unbalanced and not trustworthy. I base that off his stabbing of the zombie head over and over as a serial killer might or someone with extreme anger issues.

That is arguing from a viewer standpoint, based on information the survivors don't have. Not saying that's wrong, just that some of us are not approaching the question in that way. If I was taking bets on what was right based on the narrative flow or what I know of the whole story line, my opinion on whether to murder Randall would probably be different.

[Neil]

You really can't in my opinion, the kid at the end of the day will need support to get by he seems really mentally unbalanced and not trustworthy. I base that off his stabbing of the zombie head over and over as a serial killer might or someone with extreme anger issues. After the threat was over. Now sure we would all hate the zombie, but that sort of thing is usually out of scope in that scenario.Then his approaching of a child to try and win him over, desperate sure but anyone who would do that is someone you keep an eye on. His story with Shane, and the unknown factors. Does he really know Maggie or did he and his group kil land rape someone who knew Maggie that they may have seen on the run to town with Glenn...

Let's say you let him go, he finds his way back to the group... even if he wasn't a bad guy before he might have developed a hatred of Rick and company by how he was treated or need to use that as leverage to get back into the group, or further cement his place in it.

Either way the guy to me represents a high risk and when you are talking about your survival and that of your group you can not be too careful. There are enough question marks here at this point that in my mind make it a situation where the guy has to die.

I think I agree... However, I think it's a shame there is a good chance though this is just a normal kid, who's fallen in with the wrong group for the sole reason of the alternatives could be death (ie: In that group he's well protected. Alone he's not)...

[LouCipherr]

Just throwing this out there as a "could be" but....

What do you want to bet we find out that this kid is actually the leader of his "group of 30 or so"??

That thought popped into my head and I figure I would put it out there. You just never know...

[Neil]

Just throwing this out there as a "could be" but....

What do you want to bet we find out that this kid is actually the leader of his "group of 30 or so"??

That thought popped into my head and I figure I would put it out there. You just never know...

My guess is...
a certain handless brother is within that group
...but that would seem such a coincidence is would annoy me I think...

But you never know, me might not even get to see that other group... Depends how this all plays out. A tangle with that other group would be a good reason to move on from the farm though I guess...

[LouCipherr]

I think you're probably right, Neil. I would not be surprised at all if you were dead on (pun intended) with that observation.

[SRP76]

How exactly would the group be safer by NOT killing this guy?

Every single thing he has done has been shitbaggy. From his choice of friends to his attitude toward zombies. And yeah, "I just watched; I'm not like that", right. Bullshit, son.

No reason to let Khardis' little brother here live.

[krisvds]

Not as black and white as that is it?

The argument is the young lad may well cause a group of 30 men to invade the farm by force, probably resulting in the death (& rape) of numerous of the group.

Do you risk it?

But that's exactly my point; downright executing the guy is pretty final.
Have to agree with basically everything Aces wrote. At the moment there are just to many 'mights' and 'coulds' to make that decision. And very little besides hunches and prejudice and dodgy psychology, not to mention the 'viewer standpoints' Aces talked about to make such a decision.
Keep him in custody, see what you can find out, observe the guy,... That's hardly a black and white view. That's common sense.

I really don't see keeping him locked up would cause an invasion any more or less than shooting him?

These harsh judgments some here are talking about, well that is exactly the way of thinking that will have people within the group start plotting assassinaton attempts on one another before long. You know; let's kill Rick because I have a feeling his indecisiveness might get my loved ones killed and so on ...

[JDFP]

Just throwing this out there as a "could be" but....

What do you want to bet we find out that this kid is actually the leader of his "group of 30 or so"??

That thought popped into my head and I figure I would put it out there. You just never know...

Wouldn't that just be a complete ripoff of "LOST" as opposed to a partial ripoff with the whole storyline they are doing now of the "Others" and them?

I mean... this is basically a Henry Gale/Ben Linus situation we have here.

j.p.

[krisvds]

Idd.

I think it would be very 'TWD' if we never found out wether the kid was evil/had good intentions before he gets killed in a zombie attack/ executed by the group/ whatever ...

[LouCipherr]

Wouldn't that just be a complete ripoff of "LOST" as opposed to a partial ripoff with the whole storyline they are doing now of the "Others" and them?

I mean... this is basically a Henry Gale/Ben Linus situation we have here.

j.p.


Your guess is as good as mine, I was never a fan of Lost and never watched it.

Keep in mind though, there is no "originality" anymore for anything - it's all just what i like to call "uniquely derivative." ;)

Still, it seems feasible. I just wanted to throw that out there when the thought hit me because if I'm right and I didn't say something or put it out there, I don't want to be the one that says, "awww, man! that's exactly what I thought was going to happen!" :lol:

[AcesandEights]

Wouldn't that just be a complete ripoff of "LOST" as opposed to a partial ripoff with the whole storyline they are doing now of the "Others" and them?

I mean... this is basically a Henry Gale/Ben Linus situation we have here.

j.p.

Seems/feels like an extrapolation of tropes, not just from one source.

[Thorn]

Seems/feels like an extrapolation of tropes, not just from one source.

This.

It does not feel as Lost-Esque to me as some are making it out at all.

[toxic]

That is arguing from a viewer standpoint, based on information the survivors don't have. Not saying that's wrong, just that some of us are not approaching the question in that way. If I was taking bets on what was right based on the narrative flow or what I know of the whole story line, my opinion on whether to murder Randall would probably be different.

or like someone who was really scared might and just been attacked by a monster might?

I mean shit, that's a pretty thin basis for concluding the guy has anger issues.

[bassman]

Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

Comic Spoilers:
He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?

[Wrong Number]

My thoughts too Bassman.

WN

[AcesandEights]

do any comic readers feel that maybe....

Comic Spoilers:
He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?

Yeah, been wondering the same thing, and I feel pretty much the same way you do. I really don't want them to rush through story lines...I already feel like we've missed some good stuff already. That said, I am ready for them to leave the farm (or the group needs to start at least making some serious plans about what to do while staying there).

[paranoid101]

F*ck me Dale dead, Shane alive.

I don't want to live on the planet anymore lol.

Can I just say the zombie effects in this show take some beating.

[Andy]

You would kill someone for a crime they might very well commit huh? Lethal force the only patently obvious way to deal with possible threats?
wow. I'm not even going to argue against that.

Basically kris, right now in this pre-zombie world we live in, if i thought you were a threat to my wife or my children, i would beat you to a bloody pulp to protect them and thats in a world with police, courts, a justice system...

In a post-zombie world, i would not hesistate to shoot you if you posed any kind of threat to my family.

Shane, Rick, Daryl and the rest of the group were 100% right on this one if you ask me, the only thing they got wrong is listening to dale so long. The kid should have been shot in the morning.

Anyway, great episode i thought.. i was planning a long rant on what a twat dale is watching through this episode but after that ending, ill just say RIP dale. you wont be missed.

[Tricky]

I wouldnt execute him, I dont like the kid & I wouldnt want him around the group, but I'd have had another attempt at ditching him a long, long way away (if I was Rick I'd take Daryl on a second attempt rather than Shane, less chance of it ending in a zombie rousing fist fight!). Killing a person isnt something that should come easily and the kid hasnt done anything to deserve it yet, that may change but so far he hasnt done anything other than protecting his friends when for all they knew in the bar scene Rick & co could have been a bunch of murderers & nutjobs too. They should just dump him so far away that he wouldnt stand a chance of finding his way back to his own group, never mind the farm. Without continued medical help he'd probably die of gangrene anyway from that wound in his leg.
As for Dale I'll miss his character, he was the voice of reason and the only one in the group who hadnt been corrupted in some way by everything that had happened, he just wanted to be a good person.
Carl is a little shit and I'd have given him a slap for the way he's behaving, hopefully Daryl will give him a thick ear when he realises his gun is missing from the bike...

[Mr.G]

I enjoy reading all posts on this forum, but damn.....I would definitely NOT like to be left alone with some of you....

LOL I'm right there with you. When the zombie threat arrives, I need to stay far away from you blood thirsty SOBs. :)

I'll miss Dale...he was the humanity of the group.

[Andy]

I wouldnt execute him, I dont like the kid & I wouldnt want him around the group, but I'd have had another attempt at ditching him a long, long way away (if I was Rick I'd take Daryl on a second attempt rather than Shane, less chance of it ending in a zombie rousing fist fight!). Killing a person isnt something that should come easily and the kid hasnt done anything to deserve it yet, that may change but so far he hasnt done anything other than protecting his friends when for all they knew in the bar scene Rick & co could have been a bunch of murderers & nutjobs too. They should just dump him so far away that he wouldnt stand a chance of finding his way back to his own group, never mind the farm. Without continued medical help he'd probably die of gangrene anyway from that wound in his leg.
As for Dale I'll miss his character, he was the voice of reason and the only one in the group who hadnt been corrupted in some way by everything that had happened, he just wanted to be a good person.
Carl is a little shit and I'd have given him a slap for the way he's behaving, hopefully Daryl will give him a thick ear when he realises his gun is missing from the bike...

So your saying you conscience would lead you to give the kid a slow and painful death, out in the zombie wild rather than a quick death from a bullet?

[ProfessorChaos]

Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

Comic Spoilers:
He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

i had a similar theory a few days back, but the post was in another thread and i can't seem to recall which one.

[SRP76]

Considering Randall's "30 person" group(if it is indeed that many), do any comic readers feel that maybe....

Comic Spoilers:
He's from Woodbury? It's a stretch, I know, but with the confirmed casting of The Governor for season three, perhaps they deal with Randall and then later meet up with the group not realizing its the same one Randall came from? Philip(Governor) is extremely nice to them, only to slowly reveal his true colors?

I'll be disappointed if this happens before they introduce Michonne and set the prison up as their new safe haven, but it's certainly possible within the realm of the show, no?

Nope.

Randall and the other two guys all said they were a nomadic group. Not safe and sound in their own private town. SO they cannot be the same group.

And from the Woodbury folks' perspective, why would they want to leave a whole secured town to go live on a farm?! They wouldn't, unless they liked risking their lives.

[krisvds]

So your saying you conscience would lead you to give the kid a shot at surviving , out in the zombie wild rather than a quick death from a bullet?

There. Fixed it.

[Tricky]

There. Fixed it.

Exactly, give him a shot rather than just executing him in cold blood. If they ditched him 200 miles away then he likely wouldn't find his way back & would give up trying to. Sure there would be risks in traveling that distance but the roads didn't seem bad when Rick & Shane went out with him the first time

[MinionZombie]

Well, well, well - there's an episode and a half.

Very sad indeed to lose Dale, moreso because of the behind-the-scenes reason why his character was killed off (the rumour we heard a while back, as reported in the Darabont getting fired thread, did indeed turn out to be true ... there was only really one person it could have been considering the description that was given at the time from news sources. When it comes to casting decisions to existing cast members, I think we need to use spoiler tags in future situations if they arise, as you can figure out plot twists from casting changes).

Anyway ... here we go:

1) Despite, as Neil has said, the iffy staging of the zombie appearing behind Dale, and the ease of ripping into his stomach (but when has that ever been a problem for zombies, let us remember :rockbrow:), I thought writer Angela Kang did a bloody good job of making narrative sense out of a shitty behind-the-scenes situation that necessitated the killing off of one of the main characters. Dale was given lots of meat to chew on in this episode (having been used much more sparingly in recent episodes), and he played an important role - defending the humanity of the group, which is an extremely important thing to consider. Otherwise they'll just become feral beings no better than who they're trying to guard against.

The truth is though, that they're in a right old pickle with Randall - they should have put him down when he was stuck on that fence, but as you can see, their humanity caused them a problem, but it hasn't yet cost them their souls - morally speaking they shouldn't kill him because of the toll it will take on them as a group, and individually - but then what on earth do you do with him? You can't turn him loose at the gate as he'll definitely know where he is, the last attempt to get rid of him didn't work out, but perhaps you could just follow the road for as long as you can and then leave him on the road side ... but then conceivably he could just follow the road back, so that's not so clean cut. He's a danger in both situations - killing him, and getting rid of him.

I also liked how Kang worked in the issue of Carl's worry state of mind regarding the lives of others - his cavalier attitude - to have him goad Rick towards killing Randall was a wise choice narratively, to maintain Rick's decency, but also pose a father/son setting of examples. Then, having unstuck that zombie in the marshes when messing around, Carl has brutally seen the consequences of his dimwitted, childish actions - so hopefully that puts an end to his recent silliness (a result of this harsh and cruel world where there is no moral black & white anymore, and where death is ever present anc cheap).

Really sorry to see Dale go, as I said the behind-the-scenes reasoning makes it a much more bitter pill to swallow, but I do hope that DeMunn walks straight into a major role in Darabont's new show L.A. Noir. DeMunn rocks - I'm very sad to see him leave the show, but he certainly went out on a high note narratively speaking.

As for it showing on FXUK - here's what happened - Daryl says "sorry brother", shoots Dale, it cuts to black, and in a split second - totally undercutting the resonating tension - the dozy bint voice over woman blurts in with "up next, True Blood!" ... erm, excuse me 'continuity woman', but FUCK OFF. ACTUALLY FUCK OFF. One of my favourite characters has just been killed off in a shocking way, and you're sticking your ruddy oar in telling me about a show I know is up next anyway, but have sod all interest in watching. :mad:

I did think it was also good to have Daryl be the one to do it - Rick's been through the ringer today, and having Daryl do it brings him right back into the group. Indeed "sorry brother" as his parting words to the man illustrates that inclusion into the group that Daryl's seeing once again, after the tragic failure of his long search for Sophia.

2) KNB once again rock their talents - the zombie in the episode was really nicely done. Those exposed chompers, and particularly the wide and ever-so-dead eyes, was just wonderful.

3) I do have some theories as to where the show might be going in the next couple of episodes, but I won't speculate on them here - rather I'll address them as-and-when they happen or don't happen in the next couple of remaining episodes.

4) As for the poll, I voted to take Randall much further out ... but I'm extremely torn between the first two options ... letting him go, even much further out, does still possess the inherent risk of something extremely horrible happening to the group. Mass slaughter and rape, as Randall alluded to in the shed (there's something intrinsicly untrustworthy about Randall at this stage ... I hark back to the last episode when he was dealing with that zombie in the parking lot) ... but then what do you become by executing him? It's a catch 22 alright ... I guess at times like these a loose cannon really does come in handy. Someone to do the dirtiest work you wouldn't want to do, take the resultant flack, and then manage to stick around ... i.e. Shane ... but again, you'd still be complicit as a group (it was telling that it was only Rick, Shane, and Daryl present at the execution before Carl turned up to watch), so the loss of morality and humanity could be just as devestating in the long run.

Keeping him under guard would just be delaying a decision ... but on the other hand, it could result in an opportunity, but on the other other hand, it could play to Randall's advantage if he is indeed a tricksy little bastard and not just someone who was picked up by the wrong group at the wrong time.

They do need a longer term plan, but I assume that they'd be seeking to stay there anyway. Indeed Lori does say of the days getting shorter and the nights getting colder, and they need to do something - so Rick is going to ask Hershel if they can stay inside. So they do seem to be wanting to stay long-term (which makes sense).

5) I don't know about others, but I'd have asked "where's Carl got to?" Sure there's a lot on your mind at that point, and it speaks to the sense of perilous calm they have being somewhat removed from the shit here on the farm, but at least when he turned up I'd have said "boy, why's your trousers all muddy - Mum just washed those for crying out loud! Where've you been?!" ... Carl would have lied, naturally, but they do need to keep a tighter leash on him ... but, again, with people having so much on their mind, being spread out over the area, and everyone thinking everyone else is keeping an eye on Carl, then it's bound to happen sooner or later ... kids do get into these scrapes routinely in the real world, so there's no reason it wouldn't happen on a day like that in TWD land.

6) Nice to see Hershel warming to Glenn. The scene with the watch was quite nice - a good counter-point to all the impending execution stuff.

7) Nice to see in this episode that Andrea was warmer with Dale. Indeed her coming out for his side in the debate was a nice touch - an echo of what could have been (as seen in the comics - I'm up to Volume 10 btw).

8) Just watched The Talking Dead, connected with this episode, and they address the gutting of Dale. Their theory is that zombies have hardened finger tips - the flesh has rotted away mostly and so the tips are very bony and sharp (along with uncut nails), so that's how they theorise a zombie could tear open a person's stomach like that (which was made out of chicken breasts, among other things).

[Wyldwraith]

Here's the thing:
1) As to the argument that killing Randall paints the group into a corner regarding any potential dealings with Randall's group. Rick & Co. left 3 of their men dead on the ground already (or was it four, my memory isnt terribly sharp regarding last Sunday)...so any damage that's been done by killing members of the other group has already been done.

2) As to taking Randall a long, long way off and dumping him. Besides the already mentioned hazards/difficulties of such a trip there's this: Say they do have to deal with Randall's group at some point. If they can't produce a living breathing Randall, why wouldn't the group Randall belongs to assume that the people who've killed multiple members of their group haven't done away with Randall and buried him in a shallow grave? So as far as painting Rick & Co. into a corner, making Randall "disappear" by dumping him far enough away that he can't find his way back either to the farm or his own group would amount to the exact same thing as shooting him so far as the reaction of his groupmates would be affected.

3) The argument being made against shooting Randall, Ie: That once done, it's something that can't be undone applies with just as much force if you turn the logic around. If Randall isn't killed, and at some point contributes to or outright causes the death of one of "our group"...that's just as final. To me, YES it's a simple question. "Am I willing to tolerate any significant risk to the lives and well-being of my friends and loved ones that is in my power to eliminate? For me, that answer is no, no, a thousand times NO. Yes, the facts as the group knows them don't convict Randall 100% as a confirmed monster...but when it comes to civilization being gone and the responsibility for the lives and safety of the people you care for having become a direct and immediate personal responsibility...circumstancial evidence is enough for me to make the call, BECAUSE there is no positive offsetting factor that increases the safety/well-being of my people in letting him live.

There's a REASON our ancestors lived in small tribes that were constantly at each other's throats. It's the inevitable result of having no umbrella-overwatch to mitigate conflicts of a serious nature between separate social groups. Ie: If a "tribe" of strangers = in number to your people are sighted setting up camp relatively nearby, what stops them from killing you all in your sleep if they're so inclined if you don't do unto them before they do unto you?

Yes, I am talking about abandoning the morality forged in a civilized society. Such a morality is ONLY a positive thing so long as such a society endures. This is the core failing that makes Rick a less effective survivor than Shane, and why Dale would quite realistically have died in the situation he placed himself in. Following sounds of severe distress into the darkness, without even having your weapon in your hands and ready to fire. (Yes, I understand the character was being killed off for out-of-story motives...but if you look at the events leading up to his death, someone in that situation would UNDOUBTEDLY have fared better with a rifle in their hands than barehanded when they went down in a clinch with a ghoul. Even if you couldn't get a shot off, or even bludgeon the zombie, by holding it between the two of you and pushing upwards, the limited surface area concentrates the force you're exerting with your upward push. Compared to trying to hold another man-sized, man-shaped attacker away from your body barehanded, it's entirely possible you might even be able to open enough space between you and the zombie atop you that you're pushing back/upwards to draw your knees up and between the two of you. Which would a) prevent being manually disemboweled as Dale was, and b) More than DOUBLE the amount of force you're able to exert. Under THOSE circumstances, even an aged man like the Dale character represents would stand at LEAST a 50/50 chance of dislodging the zombie completely, if not send it over backwards and onto its ass/back and OFF YOU. Yet Dale didn't think of his moment-to-moment life in raw survivalist terms, and that's why the rifle was still slung over his shoulder when he went down, despite having enough auditory information to put a more aware individual on their guard 10x over.

Rick and the late Dale though, they think FIRST in terms of the life they lived up until civilization collapsed, and in practical/pragmatic terms of cut and dried survival afterward. Which is why, for example, Rick never even CONSIDERED stopping the search for Sophia. Not after Carl was shot, not after Andrea was attacked and almost infected but for Maggie's miraculously-timed intervention, not after Daryl was thrown from a horse, attacked by Walkers, and nearly killed by Andrea because as a consequence of his injuries/exhaustion, Daryl was staggering & lurching forward just like a Walker. Not after Shane and Andrea nearly got swarmed in the residential neighborhood. Any ONE of these events would have been enough to cause a PRACTICAL leader to at LEAST stop, and re-evaluate the current course of action in depth before continuing on with it. Instead, Rick made his decision based ENTIRELY on emotional reactions to his long-held moral code.

I'll say it again. When your actions, and those of a small group of family/friends/allies are ALL that stands between you and yours dying on any given day, it's CRAZY to take ANY risk that isn't offset by a reward/benefit of GREATER value than the severity of the risk taken. Randall has a 0% benefit-value to Rick and Co. so even if Randall was 99% likely to be a scared, mixed-up, non-threatening kid, what you're saying isn't that you're doing what you believe to be the right thing based on a 99% probability that things are as you would like to believe them to be. No, what you're REALLY saying is you consent wholeheartedly to a 1-in-100 chance that by not shooting Randall, one of your people will die as a result of that decision.

With as many threats and dangers in a post-apocalyptic environment that you'd be subjected to and could do nothing to eliminate, how could you possibly justify ADDING to those life-and-death risks/dangers when doing so in no wise aids you and yours?

[SRP76]

Dumping Randall farther out defeats the entire purpose of being on the farm in the first place.

If you want to brave 200 miles of journeying to save the life of this guy, why wouldn't you just run the 125-mile gauntlet to Ft. Benning instead?

[AcesandEights]

Dumping Randall farther out defeats the entire purpose of being on the farm in the first place.

If you want to brave 200 miles of journeying to save the life of this guy, why wouldn't you just run the 125-mile gauntlet to Ft. Benning instead?

This is true. The other big problem I have with dropping Randall out in the wilderness is the danger to everyone involved. Let's assume that wherever they go (and they've talked about going further out, after all) it will take a damn bit longer given conditions...that takes two able bodied, probably firearm savvy people off the farm when there is the heightened possibility of attack from this other group, let alone roaming zombies. And the farm feels like it's getting surprisingly light in combat effective people nowadays.

[krisvds]

Here's the thing:
1) As to the argument that killing Randall paints the group into a corner regarding any potential dealings with Randall's group. Rick & Co. left 3 of their men dead on the ground already (or was it four, my memory isnt terribly sharp regarding last Sunday)...so any damage that's been done by killing members of the other group has already been done.

2) As to taking Randall a long, long way off and dumping him. Besides the already mentioned hazards/difficulties of such a trip there's this: Say they do have to deal with Randall's group at some point. If they can't produce a living breathing Randall, why wouldn't the group Randall belongs to assume that the people who've killed multiple members of their group haven't done away with Randall and buried him in a shallow grave? So as far as painting Rick & Co. into a corner, making Randall "disappear" by dumping him far enough away that he can't find his way back either to the farm or his own group would amount to the exact same thing as shooting him so far as the reaction of his groupmates would be affected.

3) The argument being made against shooting Randall, Ie: That once done, it's something that can't be undone applies with just as much force if you turn the logic around. If Randall isn't killed, and at some point contributes to or outright causes the death of one of "our group"...that's just as final. To me, YES it's a simple question. "Am I willing to tolerate any significant risk to the lives and well-being of my friends and loved ones that is in my power to eliminate? For me, that answer is no, no, a thousand times NO. Yes, the facts as the group knows them don't convict Randall 100% as a confirmed monster...but when it comes to civilization being gone and the responsibility for the lives and safety of the people you care for having become a direct and immediate personal responsibility...circumstancial evidence is enough for me to make the call, BECAUSE there is no positive offsetting factor that increases the safety/well-being of my people in letting him live.

There's a REASON our ancestors lived in small tribes that were constantly at each other's throats. It's the inevitable result of having no umbrella-overwatch to mitigate conflicts of a serious nature between separate social groups. Ie: If a "tribe" of strangers = in number to your people are sighted setting up camp relatively nearby, what stops them from killing you all in your sleep if they're so inclined if you don't do unto them before they do unto you?

Yes, I am talking about abandoning the morality forged in a civilized society. Such a morality is ONLY a positive thing so long as such a society endures. This is the core failing that makes Rick a less effective survivor than Shane, and why Dale would quite realistically have died in the situation he placed himself in. Following sounds of severe distress into the darkness, without even having your weapon in your hands and ready to fire. (Yes, I understand the character was being killed off for out-of-story motives...but if you look at the events leading up to his death, someone in that situation would UNDOUBTEDLY have fared better with a rifle in their hands than barehanded when they went down in a clinch with a ghoul. Even if you couldn't get a shot off, or even bludgeon the zombie, by holding it between the two of you and pushing upwards, the limited surface area concentrates the force you're exerting with your upward push. Compared to trying to hold another man-sized, man-shaped attacker away from your body barehanded, it's entirely possible you might even be able to open enough space between you and the zombie atop you that you're pushing back/upwards to draw your knees up and between the two of you. Which would a) prevent being manually disemboweled as Dale was, and b) More than DOUBLE the amount of force you're able to exert. Under THOSE circumstances, even an aged man like the Dale character represents would stand at LEAST a 50/50 chance of dislodging the zombie completely, if not send it over backwards and onto its ass/back and OFF YOU. Yet Dale didn't think of his moment-to-moment life in raw survivalist terms, and that's why the rifle was still slung over his shoulder when he went down, despite having enough auditory information to put a more aware individual on their guard 10x over.

Rick and the late Dale though, they think FIRST in terms of the life they lived up until civilization collapsed, and in practical/pragmatic terms of cut and dried survival afterward. Which is why, for example, Rick never even CONSIDERED stopping the search for Sophia. Not after Carl was shot, not after Andrea was attacked and almost infected but for Maggie's miraculously-timed intervention, not after Daryl was thrown from a horse, attacked by Walkers, and nearly killed by Andrea because as a consequence of his injuries/exhaustion, Daryl was staggering & lurching forward just like a Walker. Not after Shane and Andrea nearly got swarmed in the residential neighborhood. Any ONE of these events would have been enough to cause a PRACTICAL leader to at LEAST stop, and re-evaluate the current course of action in depth before continuing on with it. Instead, Rick made his decision based ENTIRELY on emotional reactions to his long-held moral code.

I'll say it again. When your actions, and those of a small group of family/friends/allies are ALL that stands between you and yours dying on any given day, it's CRAZY to take ANY risk that isn't offset by a reward/benefit of GREATER value than the severity of the risk taken. Randall has a 0% benefit-value to Rick and Co. so even if Randall was 99% likely to be a scared, mixed-up, non-threatening kid, what you're saying isn't that you're doing what you believe to be the right thing based on a 99% probability that things are as you would like to believe them to be. No, what you're REALLY saying is you consent wholeheartedly to a 1-in-100 chance that by not shooting Randall, one of your people will die as a result of that decision.

With as many threats and dangers in a post-apocalyptic environment that you'd be subjected to and could do nothing to eliminate, how could you possibly justify ADDING to those life-and-death risks/dangers when doing so in no wise aids you and yours?

Here we go ;)
If Randall isn't killed, and at some point contributes to or outright causes the death of one of "our group"...that's just as final.
No, it's not. Killing Randall is final, him contributing to someone's death is based on conjecture. No, not conjecture, nothing as rational as that, I mean fear. You know, base emotions.

YES it's a simple question. "Am I willing to tolerate any significant risk to the lives and well-being of my friends and loved ones that is in my power to eliminate? For me, that answer is no
When in fact the question isn't simple, at all. The situation the characters are in is not black and white. You see having to decide wether another human should live or die is never simple. Especially when the only argument you have for doing so is based on a hunch or gut feeling or other mumbo jumbo standing in for paranoia and fear. Shooting someone in the head is something you should not take lightly and has to be thought through.
I recommend '12 Angry Men' if you haven't already seen it and wish to explore this moral dilemma further.

a confirmed monster...
Labelling a fellow human as a 'monster' or a 'devil' always crops up when dealing with people defending the death penalty. It's easier to kill something than someone. It also implies that the acts the 'monster' commited could never be done by someone in our 'humane' group when in fact ...

when it comes to civilization being gone and the responsibility for the lives and safety of the people you care for having become a direct and immediate personal responsibility...circumstancial evidence is enough for me to make the call, BECAUSE there is no positive offsetting factor that increases the safety/well-being of my people in letting him live.
But there is. You see, when you abandon all morality and cross that line like Shane did when he tried to rape Lori, and almost killed his (former?) best friend you will eventually become a threat to your beloved group yourself. It's a short distance from going 'we have to execute this kid because him being alive is a threat to my beloved ones' to 'we need to use violence to make Rick step down as a leader because his leadership is putting me and my beloved ones in jeopardy.'
In fact I'm willing to bet that the guy you name as the ideal leader will be as great a threat, perhaps even greater threat to the group or one of its members than Randall. Might not happen this season, but it will eventually.

We'll just have to wait and see.

how could you possibly justify ADDING to those life-and-death risks/dangers when doing so in no wise aids you and yours?
I do agree with you that a certain utilitarian approach is necessary in this zombie apocalypse. But when dealing with a persons life, especially if you have no evidence, it will open the door to a lot of trouble. YOu not only lose your humanity, you might end up destroying the group from within.
YOu name RIck and Dale weak characters because of their morality and emotions when Shane is the one character whose emotions might put the group in danger.

[babomb]

About Randall: Killing him would be doing him a favor. If he's stupid enough to jump from roof to roof like he did then it's only a matter of time before he gets himself eaten. If they hadn't removed him from the fence he would've been devoured. At least with a single bullet to the brain his death will be painless.
They wouldn't be killing him as punishment for a crime he may never comitt. That sounds like a political "spin" on the actual situation at hand, something Dale did constantly and it annoyed the piss out of me. The reality of it is that they'd be killing him to preserve the safety of the group and their homestead. This is the reality of the world they live in. Like Dale said, the survival of the fittest.

[ProfessorChaos]

there almost needs to be two separate threads for each episode:

one for those who have a few things to say....

and one for those who like to break down every single frame of the show and dissect it into a million different ways and go on for six or seven paragraphs at a time.

[krisvds]

I hereby wish to apologise to professor chaos for discussing TWD on this forum; Especially the longer posts, usually reacting to Wylds.
I do enjoy some debating and like to take my time reading other opinions than my own.

I'm sorry for annoying you professor. Please forgive me?
;)

[ProfessorChaos]

i know i'm not the only one who feels this way. it's nothing personal, but jesus, some of you guys can really ramble on....while i'm up for a good discussion here and there, every single TWD episode thread has at least a handful of posts that take up nearly half a page, usually nit-picking and conjecturing.

kinda makes me think of a freshman level psych major just bullshitting his/her way through a five-page paper.

[krisvds]

Thanks for having the decency not to insult me there Professor.

short enough?

[ProfessorChaos]

uh....um okay. i don't detect any sarcasm there, and wasn't trying to be condescending, so no problem.

i'm all up for different viewpoints, too, but generally find my eyes glazing over any posts that go on for more than a handful of paragraphs. i'm sure there's some worthwhile stuff in those posts, but most of it is lost in the mumble-jumble.

[bassman]

.

i'm all up for different viewpoints, too, but generally find my eyes glazing over any posts that go on for more than a handful of paragraphs.

This is your best option at this point. You're not alone, either....

[krisvds]

uh....um okay. i don't detect any sarcasm there, and wasn't trying to be condescending, so no problem.

i'm all up for different viewpoints, too, but generally find my eyes glazing over any posts that go on for more than a handful of paragraphs. i'm sure there's some worthwhile stuff in those posts, but most of it is lost in the mumble-jumble.

Seriously, I understand, man. It's just that once in a while someone posts a loooooooong rant that incites me to take my time and react to that.

I guess you ARE right it's pretty stupid and childish so without any sarcasm; you ARE right and i will try to be more concise.

For example; all of you who wish to kill Randall are bloodthirsty, rightwing maniacs!

[ProfessorChaos]

not asking for two-sentence posts, but here's the type of stuff i'm talking about:

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah LORI'S A LYING BITCH WHORE I"D KILL THE CUNT MYSELF I HATE WOMEN blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah RICK IS A PUSSY AND NEEDS TO BE CASTRATED FOR THE SAFETY OF THE GROUP blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah SHANE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO MAKES SENSE AND IR I WERE HIM I WOULD KILL EVERYONE ELSE BUT ANDREA AND MAKE ZOMBIE-KILLING BABIES WITH HER AND WE'D BE THE ULTIMATE BAD-ASS FAMILY CUZ I HAVE NO PITY FOR LOSERS WHO DON'T SEE THINGS LIKE ME blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah DALE AND HERSHEL REMIND ME OF MALE AUTHORITY FIGUES WHO HAVE FUCKED ME OVER IN THE PAST AND I HATE THEM FOR HAVING GREY HAIR AND EXPERIENCE CUZ THEY'RE WEAK AND NOT A LETHAL SURVIVOR OF THE APOCALYPSE LIKE ME blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

(this is a bit of an over-generalization, but this is how a lot of these longer posts strike me)

[JDFP]

Seriously, I understand, man. It's just that once in a while someone posts a loooooooong rant that incites me to take my time and react to that.

I guess you ARE right it's pretty stupid and childish so without any sarcasm; you ARE right and i will try to be more concise.

For example; all of you who wish to kill Randall are bloodthirsty, rightwing maniacs!

No; if someone has an issue with longer posts - don't read them. I'm not going to abridge myself for the sake of someone not feeling like reading a post. Get over it and skip to the next post if you don't want to read it. I'll not censor myself or my thoughts for the sake of people.

And with that said, I'm probably one of the most Conservative people on this board, Kris. And I'm certainly no "bloodthirsty, rightwing maniac!" nor am I a bleeding heart liberal either (for certain). But, one issue I've always had an issue with the majority of Republicans is the death penalty. I find it immoral and unethical and executing any criminal puts us on the same pedestal as a guard at Aushchwitz "Just following orders". With that said, this goes for a First World society where it's possible to lock a prisoner away without EVER being a threat to society again. We have the means now to do this without ever having to murder someone (and murder is the correct word for the ceaseless killing of someone with no greater purpose when it's not necessary).

However, here's the issue. I can't say I'm fully against the death penalty in a situation when there is no other valid alternative to protecting society from he threat of an individual. The society that Rick & Co. find themselves in is such a society. However, I also advocated someone knocking Dr. Jenner out and dragging him out of the CDC as being too valuable an asset for the group to lose and I somewhat agreed with what Dale did in order to save Andrea's life. Wylde thought both actions were taking away the independence of someone to make decisions for themselves and that we as humanity would lose ourselves if we were to give in to becoming this type of people - i.e. a despotic tyranny where it doesn't matter if you live or die because you will no longer have any freedoms. And yet, we're at a point now where the only alternative is to EXECUTE someone for being a POTENTIAL threat to the group? Wow, talk about slippery slopes! And then doing a cost-benefit analysis about the LIFE of someone and their value to society? Hmm...

With that said, under the circumstances, I can't say I fully disagree with Wylde and others who say ol' Randy should be killed. I'm completely against capital punishment in as much as there are other valid alternatives to protecting society (as we have now). These safeguards and protections do not exist for Rick & Co. While I completely understand where Dale came from, and I give the man major kudos as well as being a moral and ethical individual, but I personally have to ask: Where do you draw the line? It's "okay" to protect the good of your group by killing someone who may potentially be a threat - but it's unacceptable to drag Dr. Jenner out of the CDC even though his knowledge and skill would have been a greater asset to the group as opposed to his "opting out"?

I'm getting a mental image of Admiral Helena Cain in my head holding her razor and rubbing her fingers across the steel beauty of it. She, like Shane, would not have hesitated in killing ol' Randy on the spot. But at what cost do you carry on no matter what? I'm not calling anyone wrong on this - I understand where both sides of the argument are coming from here. But it's something that deserves more discussion and consideration before taking the life of a human being.

j.p.

[AcesandEights]

No; if someone has an issue with longer posts - don't read them.

This is the best advice.

Even as someone who has maintained that the really long posts tend to be way more about the writer's pathos than the actual topic at hand, I say you have to live and let live, especially when it's on you (as the reader) as to whether you bother indulging someone else's fancy.

-- -------- Post added at 12:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------


I hereby wish to apologise to professor chaos for discussing TWD on this forum; Especially the longer posts

Your posts aren't long at all. Even the post up page isn't long when you factor out the quoted portion.

[ProfessorChaos]

^

i try, trust me. it's just annoying how some rather good posts get buried in mountains of unnecessary wordage and pushed to the wayside. seems these threads at times become taken over by these marathon back-and-forths.

apologies to wyld and anyone else i've probably offended by this, but it's tough to get involved in conversation with some people when they unleash a barrage of non-stop thoughts at you when you make a single point to them.

kinda like being around someone on cocaine or extremely drunk who is always trying to dominate the conversation.

we need a conch around here. http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff36/bagoas13/Ralph/lord-of-the-flies-james-aubrey-and-.jpg

[Wyldwraith]

Okay the comparison to a coke-head or drunk DOES OFFEND me.
I put a GREAT DEAL of thought and effort into organizing my thoughts, and almost always go so far as proofing/editing significantly before sending a post out. I'm sorry if the length of my posts tries the patience of some, and since Thorn mentioned it I've tried to avoid reiterating points I've already expressed multiple times, as well as foregoing mention of circumstances from the earlier season that I felt at the time bore on what was being discussed.

I have the UTMOST RESPECT for the right of any person to express themselves as they wish, and that's why I attack ideas I disagree with as opposed to launching personal and unacceptable attacks on the individual with whom I find myself disagreeing.

The Walking Dead is a drama that deals almost exclusively in interpersonal relationships and ethical vs. emotional vs. pragmatic conflicts. Since I find it childish to make what some will no doubt consider extreme statements without also providing the reasoning behind such a statement, at times my posts can run quite long. However, as has been previously said, if one doesn't care to engage in detailed discussion of complex emotional, psychological and philosophical points raised by the many thought/emotion-provoking scenes in each episode of TWD, one has only to skip such posts if they are not to your liking.

I understand that many of my viewpoints come across as extreme to many. I've had what I believe to be a far greater than average exposure to both the actions of, and the fallout left behind by individuals who have consistently used extreme violence as a means of coercion, a method of bolstering their own inadequacies by grinding others down, and as an expedient manner of establishing control through fear for almost as long as my memories extend back to my earliest years. I say this not as some expression of self-pity or attempt to elicit sympathy, but as explanation of where I've come by what I believe to be valid insights into the portion of human nature relating to the motivations of the violent and many of the reactions to and repercussions of such violence.

To be more concise, I've seen the savage lurking behind thin facades of civility and self-justification in so many individuals, and observed the struggles of those subjected to the worst these men and women can do in so many cases that it has lead me to believe that a significant percentage of humanity are (quite human) MONSTERS whose actions are only limited or prevented by the active and ongoing deterrent-consequences held over them as threat by the now quite advanced law enforcement mechanisms of modern society.

In the absence of such deterrents, the only remaining defense is to fight fire WITH FIRE. All my life, a life shaped by the earliest experiences with such abuses during my formative years, I've struggled to protect myself, those I care for, and even strangers I've come across in the process of being attacked in one way or another who were unable to effectively defend themselves. I've PAID DEARLY for choosing to do so, ...so if at times my perceptions come across as absolutist, it is because of my awareness that predators of human shape with human powers of reason respect NOTHING but the threat of punitive retaliation!

I TRULY believe that most members of our civilized societies lack sufficient first-hand experience with such violence, and thus view the world through the lens of a thoughtful, caring, empathetic and civilized human being. I'm glad of that, but I also believe that perspective makes it difficult for many to accurately envision what a person or persons determined to protect and care for "their people" in the absence of the safeguard-deterrents that hold the VAST MAJORITY of human predators in at least partial check as would be the case after some event lead to the downfall of civilization/modern society would be required to do to make that happen.

Finally, I also believe that it is quite possible to use extreme violence to defend "you and yours" on a semi-regular basis without EVER becoming the sort of individual who ENJOYS harming others, inspiring fear in them and forcing their submission. Our ancestors had to meet violence with violence quite often, without (for the most part) becoming what they fought to protect themselves and those they care for. Should civilization fall and the deterrents which prevented our civilized societies from becoming anarchist warzones vanish, the worst in human nature will (in my strongly-held opinion/belief) rise and crash over those who remain like a tidal wave of chaos and bloodshed, and all that will remain by the end of Year 1 post-civilization's-end will be the predators, those with the resolve to beat them back by main force, the people lucky enough to enjoy the defense of such protectors, and the poor souls unlucky enough to find themselves at the mercy of the merciless.

It's these beliefs, based on bitter oft-repeated experiences, which drives what is seen by some as an overly extreme point of view on my part, and from which the lens through which I perceive the content of fiction such as the Survival Horror genre that includes TWD is fashioned. I do NOT claim that "my way" is the "right" way...only that what I've seen and experienced time and time again has lead me to what is, for me, the inescapable conclusion that while people in a post-apocalyptic environment should try to hold on to their principles and remain accountable to their conscience, one would be FORCED to leave behind much of one's "civilized nature" if they wish to have any hope of staying alive and ensuring their people likewise survive in a world that's become FULL of monsters far more frightening than any ghoul.