TWD 2x12 "Better Angels" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The penultimate episode of season two, folks!

Please be EXTRA vigilant about discussing this episode (and indeed the next when the time comes) - no info, hints, comments, and certainly no spoilers outside of this thread - nobody likes having an episode spoiled or details filled in (either directly or indirectly) before they've seen it. Thanks for your cooperation HPOTD'ers. :)

[ProfessorChaos]

i'm predicting a huge shit-storm around here after what happens tonight. probably going to be a lot of anger venting from certain individuals around here if they do what i think they're gonna with this episode.

[Sammich]

If T-Dog doesn't have more than 2 lines in this episode, then I may quit watching altogether. He is indespensable to the story and it will be an extreme disservice to the fans and heroes like Jek Porkins if the writers toss him to the wayside.

[botc]

i have secrets i think i think i know whats gonna happen... and when is shane gonna die? and when is someone small gonna shoot someone?

-- -------- Post added at 06:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 PM ----------

i predict shane is dead by the end of the episode and carl kills him as a zed anyone want to put paper or knives on it?

[bassman]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/facepalmm.gif

[botc]

Hail to the king baby! I WAS RIGHT

[babomb]

That was incredible!!! I knew it was coming though!!
Next episode is gonna be amazing. But then we wait til next year..

[botc]

ill see if i can dig up episode 13 and who dies i love youtube and if you take the time to read the comments you may find out more than you wanna know!!!! this guy was right yet he now no longer has a youtube chanel obviously what happens when you release sensitive info. for anyone who wants it spoiled pm me and ill see what i can find!

[clanglee]

Well holy shit! Wow. . .I liked how they handled that. Kept it the same but changed it. Ummm. . .botc. . . .maybe you wanna keep that shit to yourself next time. I'm glad I didn't read this thread before the episode. . but if I had. . .I'd be royally pissed right now.

[ProfessorChaos]

that was probably the best episode of the series next to the pilot. great character development, awesome to see dale (even though he really got lame at the end) and his best characteristics living on in the other characters. hell, even t-dogg had a hell of a lot to do with the plot tonight!

i'm gonna miss jon benrthal playing shane. he had a small role in the series "the pacific" and did well in that, so i was excited when he was cast to play shane. shane was only around for like 6 issues in the comics and was not developed all that much. bernthal brought the character to life and made him much more complex.

didn't really dig the heavy CGI for the clouds, mist, etc. during the rick vs shane scene. seemed a little on the hokey side, along with carl's dead-eye skills while aiming right over his father's shoulder.

and damn, that was a brutal death scene for poor ol shane....but like rick said, he brought it upon himself. and i don't buy any of the shit about lori intentionally planting thoughts in shane's head, as some spoilers suggested.

great action, cinematography, music, and plot tonight. awesome to see them settling into the house and setting up for a long winter's stay....but looks like they'll have their hands full next week.

10/10

[AnxietyDilemma]

What do you think about this? These are Bernthal's own words:

"There’s a whole part of the character that I think some people may or may not pick up on, but I think there’s a part of Shane himself that knows he is no longer fit to be among the people. He knows how much of a danger he is. He knows now he’s killed yet another human being, and I think a part of this is him really spurring and challenging and getting Rick to step up and encompass what Shane has and take Shane out. I think there’s a suicidal flavor. There’s a flavor there that’s really saying, “Come on, man, I’m challenging you to be the man that’s fit to raise the woman I love and the child I love and my child on the way. Come on and step up, raise your gun.” And there’s a part of him that so desperately wants Rick to be that man, and when Rick finally does it, there’s an element of some sort of relief."
http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/03/11/jon-bernthal-shane-walking-dead-shocker/

[botc]

i know about a certain katana!!!!!

Mod: Added spoiler tags

[AcesandEights]

ill see if i can dig up episode 13 and who dies i love youtube and if you take the time to read the comments you may find out more than you wanna know!!!! this guy was right yet he now no longer has a youtube chanel obviously what happens when you release sensitive info. for anyone who wants it spoiled pm me and ill see what i can find!

Don't post spoiler info about future episodes without warning and without spoiler tags.

[ProfessorChaos]

dude, anybody can get on any number of sites and look up spoilers. welcome to the boards, but we all have an internet connection and can check this shit out for ourselves if we'd like.

[botc]

Whoops

[White_Zombie]

This was definitely an excellent episode, one of my favorites. I liked the personal moments, the Glenn and Andrea scene was well done, so was the Rick and Carl, father and son talk. I called it on another thread about not needing to be bit to turn, but when Randall jumped out as a walker it was a bit of a surprise and a relief. Now that we know things changed in TWD world it should start to get interesting even though it left some holes in the story. I think they could of done the scene where Shane turned better, it was poorly executed and it seemed like a gag for shock value. Besides that good episode, can't wait to see what happens next week.


i know about a certain katana!!!!!

Mod: Added spoiler tags

I'd tread lightly here, not too many people like spoilers especially myself.

[botc]

test of the i dont remember how to do spoiler tags

[clanglee]

thanks Doug!

[botc]

eat my ........ blank

if you all get bent out of shape over a spoiler then you really have issues. i dont see how knowing what happens a head of time taking anything away from the show itself. you have to watch it to see it actually happen so dont get all pissy. oh and by the way ive been here since 02-04 so way before alot of people just dont remember my info to sign in.:evil:

[rongravy]

Yeah, that was definitely one of the best episodes they've done. Enjoyed the whole Shane death scene, especially on the big screen.
There's no way Navarro could've been unhappy with this episode, if he even watched it, lol.
I was beginning to wonder if the AMC slip up was done on purpose to fake us away from Dale's death last weekend, but dayumn.
The two people we've been debating about for so long are now gone.
RIP Dale and Shane.
Now, let the long ramblings begin anew!!!

[AcesandEights]

So, does anyone else think they needed to slow that opening scene down where the group bitch stomped the zombie and add the music from Office Space?

[Moon Knight]

A great episode with many great moments. Loved the bit with Glenn mimicking the exact scene with Dale back from the first episode of season 2.
From opening to end, loved every moment. Shane and Dale will be missed but this should open doors for more players to step up to the plate and contribute to the overall story of TWD tv series.
NEXT WEEK CAN'T COME SOON ENOUGH.

[babomb]

Botc, you're gonna piss some folks off if you keep going like that. Personally, I don't care at all. I put no stock whatsoever in the suspense of waiting to see what happens in the next episode. There's no way to spoil it for me.

I'm about to start doing some TWD 3D art. I resurrected my Macintosh that has Cinema4D on it. The first image is gonna be of the cafeteria doors that say "Don't open dead inside". I've been collecting reference images but haven't found much. The comics really don't have any images of that scene. Kinda disappointing. The images in the show wouldn't translate well to 3D, they're flat and boring.
Anyone have any ideas??

[clanglee]

i dont see how knowing what happens a head of time taking anything away from the show itself.[/QUOTE] . . . . . .ummmm. . .really? they call it a Spoiler for a reason. It spoils the events of the show for you. If you are the kind of guy that enjoys reading the last page of a book first. . good for you. . .but not everyone does. . .so it is considered polite to respect the wishes of other people and . . .I dunno. . .maybe not spoil shit for them?

[botc]

well hell if i get banned they will letme come back that chrome something other kid was brought back after he got banned.andrenochrome something of that nature was his name

[AcesandEights]

if you all get bent out of shape over a spoiler then you really have issues. i dont see how knowing what happens a head of time taking anything away from the show itself. you have to watch it to see it actually happen so dont get all pissy. oh and by the way ive been here since 02-04 so way before alot of people just dont remember my info to sign in.:evil:

It's not a big deal, just a matter of common courtesy. That's all people are asking for, so try not to get upset about it. Here's the general info about the policy and how to use spoiler tags (http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?19488-Im-really-starting-to-get-annoyed.&p=274218#post274218), but if you have any questions on the policy or still feel raw about it drop any of the mods a PM.

[Cykotic]

Am i the only one who thinks that Lori is a total bitch? in one episode, she is pretty much urging rick to kill shane, now she is trying to make up to shane!!! Lori, this guy tried to rape you!!!!

FFS...

[botc]

personally i dont care about spoiler tags but acknowledged and understood. ill poke the bull some other way cuz thats what i do.

[rgc2005]

++++++++++++++++1111111111111111111111111111111111 1111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, that was definitely one of the best episodes they've done. Enjoyed the whole Shane death scene, especially on the big screen.
There's no way Navarro could've been unhappy with this episode, if he even watched it, lol.
I was beginning to wonder if the AMC slip up was done on purpose to fake us away from Dale's death last weekend, but dayumn.
The two people we've been debating about for so long are now gone.
RIP Dale and Shane.
Now, let the long ramblings begin anew!!!

[babomb]

botc, why prod the bull? Why would you want to be banned? Just play nice and others will respect you. Then you can be part of the discussion instead of the one trying to ruin it and piss everyone off.

[Wyldwraith]

Entire thing was telegraphed and because of the nature of TV/show logistics there was 0% suspense.
Every single viewer knew and understood that this was where Shane died, because they weren't going to allow him to remove Andrew Lincoln from the show's lead role. Ironically, even in killing Shane there was Rick proving Shane right about his weakness. So caught up with Carl possibly seeing him as the bad guy he woulda been munched if not for Carl's nauseatingly unrealistic dead-eye accuracy. Beyond that, even knowing all the while Shane was conspiring to get him alone to kill him, Rick was going on about there being a way back from this...refusing to accept reality in favor of seeing things as he would have them be.

Dale was a shocker. This episode...as much as I absolutely HATE that Shane's gone now and Rick is UBER-BACKSLIDING into super-morality, there was simply no tension to it at all. Maybe that was their goal, to create a feeling of inevitability, but that intent if so would be the only saving grace of the plot-logistics of the episode. Otherwise it just boils down to watching 30 minutes of complete futility you know the ending of in as much depth as the writers.

JDFP said it last week, so guess it's my turn this week. No survivors left I give a damn about, and I'd root for the Walkers except the show's ratings are too high to allow a group wipe-out or (same thing, effectively) an Andrew Lincoln removal. So now I really don't know what to do. I detested Lori's selfish apology that was entirely about making her feel better, while taking back none of the awful ultimatums she'd slammed Shane with. Could admit she don't knows whose baby it is, but of course couldn't go back on the whole "Even if it's yours it's Rick's" slap in the face. Not gonna go off on this whole hate-spew, but I'll just say that for me, without Shane, everything collapses in on itself because even characters I sort of like (like Andrea and Daryl) will now be sucked wholehearted into Rick's uber-morality gravity well.

Plus, with 2 main character's dead in as many weeks, logistics fairly demands the only people that could die in this imminent zombie-swarming are non-entities the likes of T-Dog at best, or Herschel and/or some of his nameless placeholder-people. Rooting for the Walkers feels rather futile when you know show logistics won't allow for a Rick or Lori killing. Eating T-Dog, or one of Herschel's people (or even Herschel, really) would have all the dramatic punch of watching credits roll.

I know given my recent track record people would be expecting some kind of explosion, but really I just can't muster the fire for it. People have already mentioned this is more in line with the comics, and fair enough, but I just don't know how to care about a group in such utter denial of their circumstances that the only thing preserving their lives are show-logistics. You just CAN'T maintain civilized-world morality in a post-apocalyptic environment, and trying is both STUPID and (again, for me) about as interesting to watch in its maximum non-realism as paint drying.

Last thing: A huge Walker surge when show-logistics are telling you they won't eliminate anymore core characters in the event removes all the tension and uncertainty in the same way that show-logistics killed all the tension/uncertainty of Rick and Shane's joke of a showdown. It renders the Walkers utterly non-menacing bodies to be shot at and run from. With Shane, there was someone who actually made sense in an apocalypse, without him it's back to happy-happy denial land.

Will prolly be the last time I say anything in this forum unless/until another core character emerges to undercut Rick. Given his Dale-induced backsliding...Yea well, that's that. No one would be surprised if I said it, so I'll fulfill expectations and admit I WANTED to cheer Shane on to murder Rick even as I knew show-logistics wasn't going to allow it. Me personally, I'd have drawn and shot him in the back of the head the moment he stepped out in front of me. If Shane really believed the things he was saying then HE betrayed Lori and Carl by his weakness leaving them with a clearly inferior protector who will ALWAYS be inferior. God, they couldn't even have Rick draw down and drop him pre-emptively to indicate he'd learned ANYTHING from Shane. He had to whine and cry while he did it. Hell, I woulda been fine with Rick stabbing Shane and Shane dropping Rick with a dying shot. I hate the Rick character that much.

Heh, guess I did have some hate-rant on me.
/crucify: On.

[White_Zombie]

eat my ........ blank

if you all get bent out of shape over a spoiler then you really have issues. i dont see how knowing what happens a head of time taking anything away from the show itself. you have to watch it to see it actually happen so dont get all pissy. oh and by the way ive been here since 02-04 so way before alot of people just dont remember my info to sign in.:evil:

Because maybe people don't want to know? For example is it alright to go spoiling someones surprise birthday party? Once the details are revealed it takes away from the experience because you already know what's gonna happen, you may know not know everything down to the last detail but the surprise was lost and so was the anticipation.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah wyld, you might be better off finding a new show, since rick is the primary protagonist of the comics and i doubt they're gonna change it that much.

and after watching that a second time, i'm kinda miffed by close rick and shane were to the farm when the showdown happened. did that strike anyone else as odd?

[White_Zombie]

yeah wyld, you might be better off finding a new show, since rick is the primary protagonist of the comics and i doubt they're gonna change it that much.

and after watching that a second time, i'm kinda miffed by close rick and shane were to the farm when the showdown happened. did that strike anyone else as odd?

I noticed the same thing, they walked day through night in those woods just to be that close to the farm? Didn't make any damn sense.

[ProfessorChaos]

as soon as i'd typed that, i realized what shane may have been doing:

he killed randall fairly close to the farm, so perhaps by taking rick to that field (assuming he knew the area), his plan to blame randall for rick's death would've seemed somewhat more believable to the rest of the group given the close proximity of rick and randall's bodies...well that's the best i can come up with at least.

finale conjecture:
after a big assault on the farmhouse, and the arrival of a certain new character, rick reveals jenner's secret to the group. something along the lines of "jenner said transmission started off by bites, but had evolved to be airborne (hence all the dead bodies sitting in cars on the highway, they probably died before the thing went airborne) and we're all infected. we are the walking dead."

[Wyldwraith]

Agreed Professor,
Just more sad than angry at the moment. The same sort of sad when Survival came along to trumpet the death of Romero's work. There'll never be another zombie-apocalypse-based TV show. If I'm anything besides sad it's frustrated, because continuity and out-of-plot logistical concerns made Shane's death into a tasteless joke. Worse, as I said, the oncoming swarm of Walkers will because of those same show logistics be unable to claim anyone of any significance. If the interpersonal reactions to the apocalypse lack an iota of realistic effect on the characters actions and thought-processes, and the chief danger of the show isn't allowed to be, well, DANGEROUS...what's that really leave? More cling-to-unrealistic, eminently idiotic, learning-nothing-from-their-experiences morality rhetoric?

C'mon, Carl didn't even hesitate to gun down Walker-Shane an instant...and they just HAD to go all loving-conviction in his daddy's motives and not have Carl even consider that Rick mighta been the bad guy there. He did come upon him knife in hand over top of the body of his chief rival without a mark on him. Maybe my moral code is even further out-of-step with the average civilized 1st-worlder than I thought. Last note, I REALLY REALLY liked Rick for the first few episodes of Season 1. I even had really high hopes for him when the symbolism of him putting away his cop uniform came along. Hopes I had begun to, well, HOPE would be realized as he adamantly set out to correct his horrible mistake of saving Randall by executing him on his knees. Then...poof, all the shiny new toughness wiped out by Dale's death. I LITERALLY gagged when I first heard the line "From now on, we do it his (Dale's) way. That's how we honor him."

Disaster drags people down. Every single time, and every single one if the disaster goes on more than a few weeks without help arriving to abate the effects of the disaster. We all joke about Khardis's extremism, but the reality of 30,000 years of human history is that the tougher times get the faster humanity IN ITS ENTIRETY swan-dives into the moral abyss. And that during disasters that the utter collapse of ALL civilization GLOBALLY + the reanimation of 99.9% of the population as cannibalistic ghouls makes look like a species-equivalent of a 24hr bug.

Individual humans may rise above their base natures during disaster, but ONLY temporarily. The very people who risked their lives rescuing people from rooftops during Hurricane Katrina's aftermath would have KILLED AND EATEN the people they'd gone to so much trouble to save had the CDC found some sort of mutated highly infectious pathogen in the sewage-contaminated water everyone in the Wards had been exposed to and established a strict Quarantine Cordon surrounding New Orleans. Heroism, altruism, and modern morality in its entirety are like candle-flames. They'll burn for a long time, unless something comes along to disturb the air strongly enough and for long enough. Atavism is the UNIVERSAL human reaction to prolonged disaster/societal collapse. I just don't get the appeal of having the show's world-setting conspire to allow them to maintain such unrealistic cute and comfy moral stability.

[sandrock74]

Wyld,

Rick wasn't fooled by Shane for an instant; he knew what was up. He wasn't attempting to "talk Shane down" or anything, Rick was setting him up for the kill. It was classic slieght of hand...he was keeping Shanes eyes on his gun in his outstretched hand, while slowly reaching for his knife behind him as he closed the distance between them. Rick is more on the ball then you want to admit.

I don't know if you read the comic or not, but if you don't, you may be surprised at the decisions (and actions) Rick routinely makes beginning in the not too distant future. There is a certain someone looming in the future who really galvanizes Rick and colors his outlook on the reality they are now in. I'd encourage you to hang around a bit, because the poops about to hit the fan!

[Wyldwraith]

Maybe you're right.
Just something of a unique experience for me. I've never identified with a character as strongly as I did Shane. Someone who, despite his faults is almost always reliable to those he cares for. Whose been crapped on by everyone after they were done using him, and who finally and completely detonated after insult was added to injury and the man who stole his life, role and dignity basically placed him in a "sit down and shut up" position like he was some sort of child. A man who would've been shot in his hospital bed but for Shane.

So, since I've never really CARED cared about a TV character before, it's a bit of a bitter pill to swallow watching the man in every way inferior to him come out on top finally and definitively. It's funny in a way, as I've always poked fun at fanboys, yet here I find myself one...and fan of the big loser no less.

Guess it says good things about the show's drama its events actually managed to upset me.

[kidgloves]

Nobody wants to be spoiled. What the hell is wrong with some people? Some moron kept posting multiple spoilers all over my youtube channel and i've had to set it to "approve comments". Dickheads.

Anyway. Loved, loved, loved that episode. Was a bit strange them being that close to the farm but its needed for the setup.
Noticed the walkers straight away. Very nice.
How many kills in the cold opening? Even the idiots cant complain about the lack of zombies when they get that many so quickly.
I don't think theyre going to end up at the next location for the finale. It will seem far too rushed. They need to have a bit of an on the road struggle to make it seem worthwhile.

-- -------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:47 AM ----------

Wyld.
You should definately hang on with this series. You, probably more than anyone else here, will appreciate where the show is going to go.

[krisvds]

[/COLOR]Wyld.
You should definately hang on with this series. You, probably more than anyone else here, will appreciate where the show is going to go.

Yep. That is if the show goes where we think it going to go, you might have to rethink your opinion on certain characters.
Slowly but surely...

[bassman]

Great episode. Much like the previous episode, it was all spoiled because of some inconsiderate jerks, but I enjoyed it anyway. The wide shots of Rick and Shane with the moon in the background were awesome. Although it kinda reminded me of Survival. The huge shot of the walkers appearing through the trees was amazing, as well.

Aces - now i'll never be able to watch that beat down scene without thinking of Office Space. :lol:

[Ultra Magnus]

Great episode! Finally T-Dog gets some camera time! He will play a huge role in the season 2 finale.

[Moon Knight]

I didn't think the show would have me care about Shane the way I did. When the show was first announced he was nothing more than cannon fodder just to get Rick over. However, in this world, he had a huge impact and people actually cared or hated him so much they liked him. Very good job by the writing team.

[Thorn]

@captain spoiler The spoilers need to stop, and "poking the bull" because that is what you do is unacceptable, it is all kinds of a macho statement but on the internet it is just trolling and the end result is you ruining the enjoyment of something people are passionately behind. It shouldn't be about banning or not banning you, and your concern about that it should be about your respect of other people and being a part of the community. We respect each other. You don't care, you want to know... awesome look it up enjoy it. I don't and appreciate our members who respect that and keep their spoilers to themselves so I can fully enjoy the dramatic punch of the series as intended by the writers.

@Wyld. I didn't expect you to blow up, honestly I expect your reaction to be about what it is now. Thing is man, while you identified with Shane, and while your posts here seem really full of your typical downplay certain aspects and over look others (we all do it when we are making our points) Shane was insane the writers showed him going crazy over the course of the past two seasons bit by bit very well. To deny that is to close your eyes to reality.

Saying Rick stole what Shane had.. his woman... his kid.. his leadership... Shane took ALL of that from Rick first, Rick took it back. You talk about morality, you think that is right just take what you want? Really? Rick's wife, and his kid? He should have come back and just let Shane have them? As far as leadership, people followed Rick WILLINGLY including Shane for a reason... he is a true leader. His decisions suck sometimes, and are grounded in morality. That bites him sometimes but you can't make people follow you unless you do so with fear, it is a choice.

Rick came back his wife and child went to him, no RAN to him because he is theirs as much as they are his. YES Rick owes Shane and he thanked him for that, as did Lori. Shane also did a lot of wrong that resulted in the others treating him harshly and without kid gloves. AS SHOULD BE EXPECTED.

I won't ask you to keep watching the show, that is on you but maybe watch it and take yourself out of the equation and just look at the characters. Perhaps you are TOO close to this for personal reasons ( a number of which have come out over the last 2 years) and ask yourself if you were Rick what would you do? Lori? Not just Shane.

It strikes me as odd you are begging Rick to be more like Shane, saying how right Shane is, then when Rick pulls Shane in and uses slight of hand to get the drop on him and eliminates a threat to him, the group, and his family you downplay that... come on man ;)

The guy can't win with you, and I say that as a man who loathed Shane but STILL was able to identify with him on levels and still go against Rick on decisions. It is like blindly following one political party blind to the right and wrong done by both sides. You are I think too passionately involved and invested.

Deep breaths, give credit where it is due. Rick eliminated a problem, a threat to his family, and his group. He just waited for there to be no choice. A good leader does not throw away resources until they no longer have value or go so far the other way they are dangerous.

The scale tipped, Shane went bat shit crazy, killed a prisoner going against the wishes of the group, and set up a lie to cover himself, baited his friend, father of the woman he loved out into the woods with full intent to kill him.

You still can side with that?

[AcesandEights]

with 2 main character's dead in as many weeks, logistics fairly demands the only people that could die in this imminent zombie-swarming are non-entities the likes of T-Dog at best, or Herschel and/or some of his nameless placeholder-people. Rooting for the Walkers feels rather futile when you know show logistics won't allow for a Rick or Lori killing. Eating T-Dog, or one of Herschel's people (or even Herschel, really) would have all the dramatic punch of watching credits roll.

Really good point! Though I'm not rooting for Rick or Lori to die next episode, they'll be a bit hard pressed to shock us with fatalities for the season closer.

[Thorn]

Really good point! Though I'm not rooting for Rick or Lori to die next episode, they'll be a bit hard pressed to shock us with fatalities for the season closer.

T-Dawg had a lot of lines this episode so either they are making right on his under use or building him up so we care about him so they can give him the axe ;)

We should post who is left and see who we think will die and the winner receives 3 Internets...

[babomb]

I too am a little disappointed that Shane is no longer part of the show. I thought he was the most powerful character in the series so far. I think that's a testament to the actor that played him. Not that the other actors suck, just that Jon Bernthal really did an outstanding job playing Shane! I think that should definitely boost his career. I don't think I've ever seen him in anything else. The only actors I have seen otherwise are Dr. Jenner, T-Dog(maybe), Dale, and Daryl. And Meryl of course.
Which is why I commented in one of the spoiler threads relating to Shane's death that their gonna have to do some major upgrades to the characters or introduce some really great new ones. Because like him or hate him, Shane was pretty much the driving force behind both seasons so far. You take him out of the equation and you got a big hole to fill!

[Thorn]

I too am a little disappointed that Shane is no longer part of the show. I thought he was the most powerful character in the series so far. I think that's a testament to the actor that played him. Not that the other actors suck, just that Jon Bernthal really did an outstanding job playing Shane! I think that should definitely boost his career. I don't think I've ever seen him in anything else. The only actors I have seen otherwise are Dr. Jenner, T-Dog(maybe), Dale, and Daryl. And Meryl of course.
Which is why I commented in one of the spoiler threads relating to Shane's death that their gonna have to do some major upgrades to the characters or introduce some really great new ones. Because like him or hate him, Shane was pretty much the driving force behind both seasons so far. You take him out of the equation and you got a big hole to fill!

So very well said on all counts, he will be greatly missed, he already lined up another acting gig, and I think his career is moving in a great direction. He will be missed as a character, and the tension and drama he created will now need to be filled by other sources. They did a fine job of that in the trades, also at introducing new characters that might serve to fill the void left by Shane. Not in that he would be the foil, no one wants the group to be predictable that gets old. So killing Shane to bring in another Shane would be a mistake, but to bring in another strong presence... a great fighter certainly. Even someone with an attitude.

[bungi43]

personally i dont care about spoiler tags but acknowledged and understood. ill poke the bull some other way cuz thats what i do.

Does that make you feel tough on a message board to try to "test the boundaries" and such?

-- -------- Post added at 01:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:37 PM ----------


Agreed Professor,
Just more sad than angry at the moment. The same sort of sad when Survival came along to trumpet the death of Romero's work. There'll never be another zombie-apocalypse-based TV show. If I'm anything besides sad it's frustrated, because continuity and out-of-plot logistical concerns made Shane's death into a tasteless joke. Worse, as I said, the oncoming swarm of Walkers will because of those same show logistics be unable to claim anyone of any significance. If the interpersonal reactions to the apocalypse lack an iota of realistic effect on the characters actions and thought-processes, and the chief danger of the show isn't allowed to be, well, DANGEROUS...what's that really leave? More cling-to-unrealistic, eminently idiotic, learning-nothing-from-their-experiences morality rhetoric?

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll nuke Andrea. I'd say there are 5 essentials left (Lori, Rick, Andrea, Daryll and Glenn). I'd be happy if she died. But I agree that next weeks episode is setting up to be a bit more of a let down than anything else, simply because there are too many minor people left to kill and say "who cares". I think killing Herschel would be very sad, but if they are leaving the farm, really, what do we expect?


C'mon, Carl didn't even hesitate to gun down Walker-Shane an instant...and they just HAD to go all loving-conviction in his daddy's motives and not have Carl even consider that Rick mighta been the bad guy there. He did come upon him knife in hand over top of the body of his chief rival without a mark on him. Maybe my moral code is even further out-of-step with the average civilized 1st-worlder than I thought. Last note, I REALLY REALLY liked Rick for the first few episodes of Season 1. I even had really high hopes for him when the symbolism of him putting away his cop uniform came along. Hopes I had begun to, well, HOPE would be realized as he adamantly set out to correct his horrible mistake of saving Randall by executing him on his knees. Then...poof, all the shiny new toughness wiped out by Dale's death. I LITERALLY gagged when I first heard the line "From now on, we do it his (Dale's) way. That's how we honor him." Referencing the bold...unless from the moment I knew my father he was a horrible human being, my considerations wouldn't be that my father was the bad guy. If I had walked up on that as Carl and not heard the conversation (before Rick stabbed Shane) and saw Shane holding a guy to my father, I would've blown a hole in his head. I could really connect there. I didn't feel Rick's pleas though. Felt forced.


Disaster drags people down. Every single time, and every single one if the disaster goes on more than a few weeks without help arriving to abate the effects of the disaster. We all joke about Khardis's extremism, but the reality of 30,000 years of human history is that the tougher times get the faster humanity IN ITS ENTIRETY swan-dives into the moral abyss. And that during disasters that the utter collapse of ALL civilization GLOBALLY + the reanimation of 99.9% of the population as cannibalistic ghouls makes look like a species-equivalent of a 24hr bug. I don't know if I agree with this entirely. Looking back through history, if this were the case, we'd live in a martial law type system everywhere, and many civilizations wouldn't even exist.



Individual humans may rise above their base natures during disaster, but ONLY temporarily. The very people who risked their lives rescuing people from rooftops during Hurricane Katrina's aftermath would have KILLED AND EATEN the people they'd gone to so much trouble to save had the CDC found some sort of mutated highly infectious pathogen in the sewage-contaminated water everyone in the Wards had been exposed to and established a strict Quarantine Cordon surrounding New Orleans. Heroism, altruism, and modern morality in its entirety are like candle-flames. They'll burn for a long time, unless something comes along to disturb the air strongly enough and for long enough. Atavism is the UNIVERSAL human reaction to prolonged disaster/societal collapse. I just don't get the appeal of having the show's world-setting conspire to allow them to maintain such unrealistic cute and comfy moral stability.

That's an interesting thought really. I would venture to say none of us have come anywhere close to a societal life threatening event.

But I do know some people who've killed in war. Where survival is obviously key.

People come back messed up. But some people don't.

[Wyldwraith]

@Thorn:
By "stealing" I didn't so much mean Lori. Shane's relationship with Carl was something Lori had been actively trying to stamp out since late Season 1, and that I consider stealing from Shane to a mild extent..but the real theft, the one that makes me see red and crave Lori's brutal death like a junkie craves their fix is the whole "Even if the baby's yours it will be Rick's, and there's NOTHING you can do about it!" Her apology this episode was a non-apology, because it offered no attempt or willingness to make amends for the wrong she did him. Lori could admit she didn't know whose baby it is, but had she TRULY intended to make amends she would have told Shane this:

"Shane, you have to understand that I love my husband and my son. We're a family, and that's how it's going to stay. HOWEVER, if it turns out that the child I'm having is yours I won't stand in the way of you being just as much a father to him/her as Rick will be, and when he/she is old enough to understand me, you and Rick will explain things, together. Secrets have poisoned everything for months now, and I'm done with secrets and lies. I won't wrap the birth of my child in yet more lies, and if the baby IS yours I won't allow Rick to rob you of your rightful place in his/her life anymore than I'll ever allow you to try and take Rick's place with me and Carl. You didn't force me to be with you, and my decision to be with you then has obviously had consequences for all of us. I have to take responsibility for my decisions, and that starts right now, but it also means you really do have to turn over a new leaf. I know I've made things harder on you than they had to be, but we're going to start fresh when it comes to trust because of that. But Shane, you REALLY need to hear me when I tell you that if I can't trust you to watch Rick's back like he watches yours...and to really be the man this group has relied on from the beginning, how could I trust you with a child as much mine as it may be yours? Not because of Rick, but because of you making me unable to trust you. Can you understand that?"

Had Lori TRULY taken responsibility for her decision to be with Shane back then, and take responsibility for the consequences that may well have come from that decision she would have done the right thing and potentially opened a door into Shane's life as a father, as she definitively nailed shut the door she'd closed between her and Shane, and Shane and Carl as a father-figure.

With something REAL, something GOOD to live for...Shane very well might have dragged himself back from the brink. Sure, if it turned out the child wasn't his he very well might've reverted to his near-psychosis and had to be put down, but in the months to come he may well have done lasting good...saved one or more lives, and possibly his own soul.

So much else is open to interpretation, but if a woman consensually beds down with a man and a child comes from that decision she has NO RIGHT to STEAL that man's RIGHT to be a father to his child in favor of giving the fatherhood she'd stolen to another man. Not even a husband. It's wrong, and nothing anyone will ever say will convince me otherwise. If it was done to me and I was unable to remedy the situation by talking it out, followed by attempted legal remedies if that fails...and if all else failed I'd see the woman who stole my right to be a father dead, and the man she allowed to usurp my place with her.
(Edit: If you're EVER going to believe a word I say, these are the words to believe, because when I say here that I would kill in cold blood and without qualm if given no other choice to regain my place in MY son or daughter's life I mean every word, in my blood and bone, my Oath before God.)

It's simply, INARGUABLY IMMORAL to defend Rick's right to Lori and Carl but deny Shane's right to be a father if the child turned out to be his...or even if the paternity could not be determined either way (though I doubt that would be the case, since Shane possessed several dominant-gene phenotype expressions absent in both Rick and Lori...and even in their primitive circumstances Herschel could easily identify the child's blood-type simply by mixing blood samples from the child with donor samples from members of the group who know their blood-type. Other than the Universal Donor O (I forget if its negative or positive despite knowing im the O thats the Universal Recipient), the aforementioned Universal Recipient and the child's own blood-type, all other types will VISIBLY fail to become a homogenous sample when mixed with the child's blood. Not a perfect system by any means, but it could well be indicative when used in tandem with examination of the child's expressed physical phenotype-genetics. Ie: Curly hair or straight, eye color etc.

[Thorn]

@Thorn:
It's simply, INARGUABLY IMMORAL to defend Rick's right to Lori and Carl but deny Shane's right to be a father if the child turned out to be his...or even if the paternity could not be determined either way (though I doubt that would be the case, since Shane possessed several dominant-gene phenotype expressions absent in both Rick and Lori...and even in their primitive circumstances Herschel could easily identify the child's blood-type simply by mixing blood samples from the child with donor samples from members of the group who know their blood-type. Other than the Universal Donor O (I forget if its negative or positive despite knowing im the O thats the Universal Recipient), the aforementioned Universal Recipient and the child's own blood-type, all other types will VISIBLY fail to become a homogenous sample when mixed with the child's blood. Not a perfect system by any means, but it could well be indicative when used in tandem with examination of the child's expressed physical phenotype-genetics. Ie: Curly hair or straight, eye color etc.

I respect your right to your opinion even if I do not agree with all of it, some of it indeed does resonate with me. Sadly when Lori spoke those words I feel she was under the impression Shane lied to her to manipulate her out of her home city, and abandoned her husband to his fate. She viewed hi m as a liar that denied her the right as a wife and therefore all rights to anything he would have had in her mind were off. Further add to that the attempted rape, and other actions by an imbalanced Shane and how sincere can she really be? She knows he killed Otis... she did her best to make amends. Shane's response was to try and kill Rick and take it all by force.

Again you justify the actions of one but not the other, I am not saying you are not capable of seeing both sides I am saying you are not allowing yourself to consider all aspects.

I agree if someone had my child I would fight for my child, in this case what Lori said was wrong and in a court of law after the baby was born Shane would be allowed to make a case to prove the child was his. Right now there is no court in the Walking Dead so the right thing to do is let it play out and see where the chips fall. If it is your kid fight for your right to be a father then, and do it the right way not y lying, murdering, manipulating, and shooting your best friend in cold blood.

I know this is where you will justify his actions, and explain he was given no choice, or how he was treated made him do it, or drove him to it. I am going to also stop agreeing with you there. Shane at no point has a right to gun down his friend in cold blood before that fact is even established and do so in cowardly fashion through deception, manipulation, and murder.

I would again kindly ask you to step back from the situation and consider all of the factors around the events that unfolded before passing judgment on Rick and Lori, we know Shane tried his best with Rick she doesn’t. We have a tv screen we saw it, all she has is his word, a tainted word. One that has been increasingly worth less and less as the season and series has progressed. He has been caught in lies, and observed being a unhinged wild man throughout… her going to him might not have met your ideal criteria for what she should have done but it was a start and you are not giving her credit for that. She made an effort to fix it, he made an effort to kill her husband (his best friend, and the father of a young boy).

I would respect Shane’s claim to his son or daughter if that was confirmed, but to Lori I don’t even get how that comes into scope. There is no questioning Rick and Lori’s claim to each other no one can question that so we can leave that out. Shane WOULD in my mind have a claim to any child proven to be his despite what was said pre apocalypse and post. Shane elected to handle that in a a manner that is horrible.

Real world terms and application. You get a woman pregnant, you then try to rape her, and commit murder, lie, deceive, and conduct yourself as a sociopath… would a court grant you custody of the kid? Would they make your attempted rape victim play house with you? Not if it is a sane court, and to suggest there is a means to make this OKAY post apocalypse is absurd in my opinion.

The only way to do it is with brute force and SHANE has NO IDEA if this is his kid so any action before that determination like ohh I don’t know shooting the crap out of your best friend is not just wrong it is evil, and demented, cruel, and barbaric all at the same time. I am sorry I just can’t get my mind around how anyone is okay with it.

[Wyldwraith]

First,
You're cherry-picking from my statements Thorn, and doing it in such a way as to imply things I did not say and downplay other things. I'll start from the top and work my way down. 1) I NEVER, at ANY TIME said that what Shane was intending to do to Rick was acceptable for reasons of "taking" Lori and Carl. I DID say that Lori DEFINITIVELY threw down an ultimatum that no matter what, regardless of paternity, Rick would have all rights as a father to the unborn child and Shane would have none. You're right about one thing though, there aren't any courts in a post-apocalyptic environment and with Rick being more popular than Shane, any conflict between them of a verbal nature over paternity rights to the child would certainly result in the group majority going with Rick. Not because he's right, but basically as the result of a popularity contest. Shane has every reason to know that, and every reason to know that nothing he could ever say or do was going to change that.

You say he should wait and see where the chips fall. Why? Lori didn't wait in handing down her ultimatum the very INSTANT she found out Shane knew she was pregnant. Additionally, you have the way she phrased it "And there's NOTHING you can do about it!" which indicates Lori was prepared for a fight with Shane on this issue and fully intended to have things her way even if Shane had to die to make it happen. Let's remember Lori was urging Rick to do EXACTLY what Shane tried to do last episode. RICK gets positive-morality points for resisting Lori's urging, but Lori's still guilty of solicitation to commit murder. And for what reason? Because she pulled a Rick, ran off and crashed a car and despite nearly getting herself eaten was adamantly intending to continue onward towards town in search of Rick. Yes Shane lied, again, but his motives were a lot purer than what Lori construed them to be. Shane's first expressed concern was for the baby Lori's crazed behavior was jeopardizing by running off ALONE without any kind of plan.

2) Shane's Assault of Lori at the CDC. I've SEEN attempted rape and attempted GANG RAPE. BELIEVE ME, while what Shane did was utterly unacceptable and certainly criminal, it stopped WELL SHORT of Attempted Rape. I'm with you on charges of felony Battery and a misdemeanor charge of Lewd and Lascivious Conduct, but characterizing that attack as Rape a) Embellishes the reality of what happened, and b) Is a dire insult to every woman who's ACTUALLY been raped or nearly raped. Drunken pawing that doesn't end until the woman scratches the hell out of the man's cheek is at least 4 kinds of criminal/immoral, but rape it's not. It just isn't. I don't fuck around about that word, as I consider it an equal crime to Murder and will kill to stop it, and have both maimed and been maimed to stop it.

3) You may well be right about Lori's thought-processes concerning justifying her immoral ultimatum to Shane. It's in line with Lori's habit of habitually dumping the responsibility for her own choices and decisions on others. That said, just because Lori thought that because Shane lied to her and that influenced her decision to leave with him it in no wise justifies her negation of Shane's potential paternity-rights. Lori can twist it how she wants, but Shane's lie about Rick being dead caused her to take Carl and leave the city with Shane. It DID NOT CAUSE her to CHOOSE to get it on with him like a couple of horny teens. That's on Lori. In Lori's mind, admitting that fact and admitting she doesn't know whose child she's carrying absolves her and gives her the right to decide who will be father to the baby. It doesn't work that way.

4) Lori going to Shane: You're absolutely right. I give Lori NO credit for this, because none is merited. Her confessions have no weight because they are accompanied by no significant change in her choices/prior ultimatums. It's not a start, it's what Lori thought she had to say to appease Shane and end it. Nothing she said indicated she was any less determined that Rick be the child's father regardless of its paternity. You have a right to read what you want into the scene, but factually there is no support for the position that Lori's apology was anything but empty words spoken for self-serving ends. Just as you point out that Shane has often lied, Lori has just as often abdicated responsibility for her decisions.

As I said before Thorn: Nothing more had happened to make Shane believe Lori was any less determined that she have 100% of the say about the child's fathering. Simultaneously, even the cast members of the show have said on Talking Dead that Rick's recent statements to Shane were declarations that Rick would dictate how things would be and Shane would have to "swallow it" (as Rick said to him 3x in the last 2 episodes). So, Lori is handing out absolutist ultimatums, Rick is indicating Shane has no power....and Shane has every reason to know a social conflict within the group over the issue will resolve itself in Rick and Lori's favor as a mater of popularity.

So tell me, Talking = Out. Appealing to the other members of the group = Shane loses. Other than simply accepting Lori's ultimatum, how was Shane supposed to "fight for his right to be a father" if not by force when force was all that remained? No, that's not justifying Shane's murder-attempt, that's me EXPLAINING a DAMNED GOOD REASON for it. Shane had lost EVERYTHING at that point and Rick and Lori were getting EVERYTHING THEIR WAY!

You're damned right, I am too close to that issue. Except for a miscarriage it nearly happened to me when my childhood sweetheart left her husband, told me dozens of lies to make him out to be a monster she needed to be protected from, made the first, second and third moves about anything physical herself while I'm still back in Supportive Friend Mode. She got pregnant, and I found out about the same time she'd been calling her allegedly wife-beating rapist of a husband she had supposedly already filed divorce papers on behind my back, and she then trotted on back to him....after first spinning a story that I'd been holding her prisoner and abusing her to escape any recriminations from her family and husband...which resulted in the police coming to my house, cuffing me and treating me like an animal while they searched the house...only to have her call the station once her bus arrived in Panama City to tell the police a wild tale about how her mother was worried out of her mind and completely misconstrued things and she didn't say anything like that.

And I was forced to eat it, because in FL, as in most states where spouses are not at least legally separated (which she would've been by Florida Law, which was a big part of her motivation for the criminal action lie) the husband retains all paternity rights regardless of biology if the wife screws around on the side. Rage doesn't even BEGIN to describe the feeling of being left with NO socially acceptable option but laying down for another man raising your son or daughter. The entire situation messed me up so badly I was GLAD when I found out she miscarried, and while a part of me is STILL ashamed of feeling that way, the majority of me has never stopped thanking God he simply refused to let my only son or daughter be born to such a vile bitch while I would be forced to stand by as her loser husband stole my place.

It actually HURT ME you saying that I was trying to say Shane's murder-attempt was OK. It wasn't, but I know from personal experience with such a situation that its VERY hard to feel there's any choice at all besides doing something crazy. That doesn't absolve the character, and it doesn't justify what he intended...but Lori and Rick both are directly complicit in Shane's swan-dive from the brink. People who know what they did was wrong who are genuinely repentant don't offer empty words. They do what's in their power to make the wrong right. Not justify their wrong with a wrong done by the one they're now wronging.

Besides, ultimately Shane couldn't go through with it. He had every opportunity, but he didn't take it. He all but pleaded with Rick to put him down. Shane was a broken, twisted man by that point...but he didn't GET THAT WAY ALONE.

You're right though, I am very close to the issues and I'll allow for the possibility that prevents me from seeing the entire picture. Add my personal bias to my unhappiness the show is (at least temporarily) swinging in an utterly unrealistic direction and it's certainly more than possible.

I am curious though. What would you have had Shane do? Kiss ass and plead for what was his by right if it's his child?

[rongravy]

Danggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg.

Anyhoo, I noticed Carl drew that pistol before Shane got up. Was he aiming it at daddy first? I thought so.

Also, during the zombie stomp at the beginning, my daughter and I both mentioned the Office Space scene. Lots of chuckles were had.

I hate that no one at my work watches TWD. I wanted so much to shout out what happened last night, but it would've been to no avail. I asked if anybody even watches it, and I was met with blank stares. WTF?!?!?

And finally, Shane is on Letterman tonight, for anybody who wants to catch it. Just thought I'd throw that one out there...

[Tricky]

I havent seen this episode yet so trying not to read much, but a mate of mine has just plastered the entire finale spoiler across facebook which I saw, dang!! :mad:

[niiru]

Two things:
1) The zombie with a broken neck walking around fighting like it was going out of style was far too Return-esque for me. I mean, I guess the difference between this and flip top from Land is minimal (I think flip top gets an exception due to sheer awesomeness) but shouldn't broken neck have resulted in a quadriplegic zombie? The earlier suicide hung zombie I figured died from asphyxiation rather than a broken neck. I can't quote episodes, but I think I remember a few crawlers in Walking Dead (other than bicycle zombie who obviously had no legs). I hope they're not going in a weird direction on this.

2) At the end of 2x11 I thought they were going to go for zombie cows. The cow is there, eviscerated but still mooing. Not just eviscerated, partially eaten, gaping hole where ribs used to be. Still mooing. I figured that'd get a mention at the start of this episode, but I guess not. I guess the mooing was just so you'd know it was a recent killed cow and not another pile of charred corpses?


So, does anyone else think they needed to slow that opening scene down where the group bitch stomped the zombie and add the music from Office Space?

THIS. I'm glad someone else had that thought. :)

[shootemindehead]

...but shouldn't broken neck have resulted in a quadriplegic zombie?

Not if the spinal cord isn't damaged. The neck may have partially broke, or the vertebrae fractured and probably damaged the trachea and oesophagus, resulting in death. But, if the spinal cord is undamaged, then it's possible to be mobile.

I agree though, he was a bit TOO mobile.

[Legion2213]

Dear God...what an episode! I can't take in what I've just seen. :eek:

Real stonker this week...redeemed Carl for being a dick lat week, made me really feel the loss of Dale, made me laugh at what a limp-wristed tool Glen is, reinforced my belief that Daryl is some kind of god and even had my feeling some sort of non-hatred for Lori for a second or two. :p

R.I.P Shane, you dangerous unstable sociopathic bastard! Your character will be missed. :D

Edit: So hyped I forgot to mention the brutal walker massacre at the start...seriously, who's endangered now you undead fuckers!

This show needs to be renewed for at least 5 more seasons...now...today. :)

[AnxietyDilemma]

Anyhoo, I noticed Carl drew that pistol before Shane got up. Was he aiming it at daddy first? I thought so.



I thought that too, but upon re-watching it I just realized that it was an editing/camera tactic to make us think that. He draws the pistol and is pointing it at his Dad, then it cuts to Shane getting up, but it's timed in a way where he probably would've pointed because he saw Shane starting to move.

[krisvds]

Poor Shane... I felt pity and revulsion for the man, at the same time.
This episode was well paced and well written IMO. The only scene that 'took me out' of the show was that little moment between Andrea and Glenn. Bit of stiff and unbelievable acting there.

Pacing was great, really liked the opening montage and then the slow build up to THAT ending. The setting did remind me of the final shot in survival like it did Bassman, but that's not a bad thing as that was an awesome shot to begin with. I like the showdown feeling heightened and stylised. Great suspense too; that moment where Rick asks Shane if this is where he was planning to do it sent shivers down my spine.
Shane will be missed; every show needs a good ambiguous 'bad' guy you just love to hate/hate to love. Big shoes to fill. I'm glad we are rid of the tiresome love triangle. Luckily they downplayed that angle a bit to have the conflict be about 'whose the better leader' than 'whose the best partner.' Still surprised it happened so fast. I was expecting this moment as a 'finale' or as a start to the new season.

BTW. What a great leader he would have been huh, the lying weasel! 'We need to kill the kid to save our beloved...' and all that crap. Selfishness disguised as altruism. Shane would have made a great politician. ;)

And then that final shot: hurray!

Sidenote; Randall coming back as a zombie confirms we are dealing with Romero-rules (tm) here right? The dead come back as flesh-eating ghouls. The guy was not bitten but died of a broken neck AND came back. There. Cool.
Now can someone please explain to me why all the dead people on the highway, behind the wheels of their cars, were, you know, dead?

[shootemindehead]

Well, I'm taking it that they had head trauma in some way, or wounds you couldn't see. It's that, or bad production. Besides, there weren't too many bodies of that nature, so I can let it go.

As for the ep, it was good, but it leaves the producers with an issue for the series finale. It's been mentioned above, that with the death of Shane, only potential zombie fodder will be sacrificed in the last episode.

I hope T-Dog gets done, because he's useless and has an irritating moniker that makes me cringe ever time I hear it. But, there's also some extra bits of useless flesh hanging around the house that can be offed as well, of whom I don't even know their names, so there might be a nice slice of gory delight coming our way next week.

The pending zombie attack doesn't sit right with me though...what the hell where they doing there anyway? and how long where they in the woods, not bothering to head over to the big house and investigate all the din coming from their noisy neighbours? Rick and Shane's yap would have drawn them out long before the gunshot from Carl. It's a bit odd.

[krisvds]

The pending zombie attack doesn't sit right with me though...what the hell where they doing there anyway? and how long where they in the woods, not bothering to head over to the big house and investigate all the din coming from their noisy neighbours? Rick and Shane's yap would have drawn them out long before the gunshot from Carl. It's a bit odd.

Perhaps it's just a horde that wasn't there before and has just recently made their way through the forest?

[Ghost Of War]

I think Randall's group will be involved in the finale somehow.

[Thorn]

Agree with all it was an amazing episode I am not sure if the writers were giving a nod to the people who wanted more zombie killing with that opening montage or not but either way I enjoyed it and was thrilled with it's inclusion.

@Wyld as I said if I were Shane I would wait for the baby to be born, and then prove paternity or attempt to by whatever means were available to me at the time, there is no saying the kid is mine and therefore I am not going to fly off the handle and try to make it mine by force. It still could be Rick's you just don't know.

As to my cherry picking your posts or hurting you, I selectively respond to your posts because they are HUGE and I really can't take the time to address them line by line that would be a third job for me.

I stand by everything else I said and I am very comfortable with it, and at this point I am going to agree to disagree with you we will never see eye to eye on it and even discussing it has ceased to be enjoyable so let's just say you are on one side and I am on the other and stop cluttering the board with the back and forth that goes nowhere.

[Tricky]

Perhaps it's just a horde that wasn't there before and has just recently made their way through the forest?

I've heard (seen as my mate posted the entire screenplay on facebook last night, dont know how true it is) DONT READ IF YOU DONT LIKE SPOILERS!!

that the horde of zombies that reach the farm are shown making their way from where Ricks horse was eaten in Atlanta, apparently a helicopter flying overhead startles them and the horde migrates over a period of weeks to end up near the farm, then a gun shot is heard and the horde heads towards it - leading them to the farm

[fishfast41]

Holy bleeping crap! just watched the episode finally, and skimmed the thread. Must go to work now, hope I can keep my mind on the job,lol. I'll have more than a few comments when I get home . WOW

[Thorn]

Holy bleeping crap! just watched the episode finally, and skimmed the thread. Must go to work now, hope I can keep my mind on the job,lol. I'll have more than a few comments when I get home . WOW

I am avoiding the spoilers ;) Thank you for putting them in tags.

This show was really kind of amazing in my mind it was excellent story telling, good character development, great action, pacing, and plot... and the acting was above the normal high quality level I have come to expect.

[bassman]

I've heard (seen as my mate posted the entire screenplay on facebook last night, dont know how true it is) DONT READ IF YOU DONT LIKE SPOILERS!!

that the horde of zombies that reach the farm are shown making their way from where Ricks horse was eaten in Atlanta, apparently a helicopter flying overhead startles them and the horde migrates over a period of weeks to end up near the farm, then a gun shot is heard and the horde heads towards it - leading them to the farm

I've heard that too. Seems to be legit. If they're sticking close to the comics....

That helicopter could be the news team from Atlanta that eventually crashes near Woodbury and is taken in by The Governor(now confirmed for season three). So if it works out that way, that's a nice bit of continuity to tie back into the entire television series thus far.

[shootemindehead]

Perhaps it's just a horde that wasn't there before and has just recently made their way through the forest?

Aye, but I felt it was a bit too whizz-ping! Instant horde. I'll have to watch it again. After the unlikely safety of the farm up til now, it felt a bit off to have a load corpses just appear out of nowhere and it stuck me as odd that only Carls gunshot caught their attention, but not Rick going "Wahhhhh, I just killed me best mate...he was a bollox anyway! Wahhhh......!"

[sandrock74]

The pending zombie attack doesn't sit right with me though...what the hell where they doing there anyway? and how long where they in the woods, not bothering to head over to the big house and investigate all the din coming from their noisy neighbours? Rick and Shane's yap would have drawn them out long before the gunshot from Carl. It's a bit odd.

I think it was a good way to show that they have literally been surrounded by zombies for a while now, but never knew it! The sound of the gunshot just gave the zombie crowd somewhere specific to home in on. What an scary sight, seeing that horde emerging from out of the forest! I hope Glenn and Daryl already made it out of the woods...

[babomb]

I've heard (seen as my mate posted the entire screenplay on facebook last night, dont know how true it is) DONT READ IF YOU DONT LIKE SPOILERS!!

that the horde of zombies that reach the farm are shown making their way from where Ricks horse was eaten in Atlanta, apparently a helicopter flying overhead startles them and the horde migrates over a period of weeks to end up near the farm, then a gun shot is heard and the horde heads towards it - leading them to the farm That sounds awesome! Really ties it back in with the pilot. I hoped something would come of that, and it may even tie in with whatever Jenner told Rick...

[Legion2213]

Perhaps it's just a horde that wasn't there before and has just recently made their way through the forest?

Possibly the herd from the highway, maybe a bunch of them went off into the forest for one reason or another and then went a bit dormant as TWD walkers seem to do.

It was a great closing shot anyway. This series is rocking my world the way a good series should.

[Wyldwraith]

Ya know I just realized I was missing an effective means of "winning" an argument in a post-apocalyptic environment.
Screw persuasion, shoot who screws you and then wash your hands of people mired in what their lives once were. I mean, after all, Shane died because even he was enough stuck in what was that he couldn't just draw and squeeze the trigger the moment Rick stepped in front of him. Rationally speaking, if you're going to MURDER an ex-cop who's survived dealing with gangbangers who vastly outnumbered him and a saloon-style Old West shootout you've got to be 100% committed or you're just gently placing your head on the chopping block.

You're right Thorn. We're NEVER going to agree. You think the modern moral code and principles of jurisprudence can be maintained in a world where life literally isn't worth a pack of unopened smokes. We beat around the bush in the details of the frame by frame, but if you think about it you and I would make quite effective stand-ins for Rick & Shane. The only difference being I wouldn't have telegraphed my darker intentions over petty crap early on, and you wouldn't be SO idealistic as to be unwilling to drop me the moment I hit your threat-radar (I'll grant you that, based on you seeming to have your head on straight about using lethal force without qualm to defend your family from visible threats.) We're oil and water so far as our moral codes go. I'll just finish with this:

I don't know what you've experienced in life, so I won't proceed to judge your perceptions of human nature beyond your expressed ideals. For my part, however, EVERYTHING I have seen...not a half-dozen times, not twenty times, not fifty times...more times than I can count, literally. Everything I've ever seen indicates that the majority of human beings will become something that makes Khardis's mouthing-off seem like choir-boy practice once you remove the choke-chain of effective law-enforcement and convenient, even easy, day-to-day access to life-necessities.

I like you. I truly do. So right here, I'll give you the best wishes I could frame for what I know of you. "God (whichever you believe in, or insert the term Universe if none) grant that Thorn, his loved ones and friends live full and happy lives and die at a ripe old age before the world ever falls apart. I know he (Thorn) is a better person than me, and I truly don't want to see him either dragged down to my level by seeing the things I've seen and worse, or losing everything important because he's just not cut out for a world where humanity's "Better Angels" are all the barrier holding at bay the savage killer lurking in every human soul. My prayer, Shawn M. Panzegraf, This Day March 13, 2012"

[Legion2213]

I too am a little disappointed that Shane is no longer part of the show. I thought he was the most powerful character in the series so far. I think that's a testament to the actor that played him. Not that the other actors suck, just that Jon Bernthal really did an outstanding job playing Shane! I think that should definitely boost his career. I don't think I've ever seen him in anything else. The only actors I have seen otherwise are Dr. Jenner, T-Dog(maybe), Dale, and Daryl. And Meryl of course.
Which is why I commented in one of the spoiler threads relating to Shane's death that their gonna have to do some major upgrades to the characters or introduce some really great new ones. Because like him or hate him, Shane was pretty much the driving force behind both seasons so far. You take him out of the equation and you got a big hole to fill!

Totally agree, but I am also glad they killed him off as well,you can't realistically have a multiple murderer who is a danger to the group there for several seasons, it would hurt the integrity of the show.

But yeah, gonna need somebody special to fill his boots.

As for Berthnal himself, can't have done his future prospects any harm at all with the performances he turned in, especially in this season...I was nervous every time he was on screen, he was a ticking time bomb of destruction and violence.

[AnxietyDilemma]

All of this arguing over Rick and Shane, and yet I think Daryl is best equipped to survive all of this. He wouldn't make a good leader at all, but I best relate to Daryl because he could just say screw the group and take off, and survive on his own. I'm not exactly sure why he hasn't.

[Thorn]

@ Wyld I wish you the same brother, life and luck to you and yours.

As to the horde/herd in the woods, perhaps they were brought to the area more and more over time, the sounds of barnageddon, and all the rest. Then the sounds died so they went dormant, but they got closer and closer with each sound or each outburst... in this episode they said the creek was drying up unless I misheard which would mean it was no longer acting as a barrier. That is my theory on that.

[Legion2213]

All of this arguing over Rick and Shane, and yet I think Daryl is best equipped to survive all of this. He wouldn't make a good leader at all, but I best relate to Daryl because he could just say screw the group and take off, and survive on his own. I'm not exactly sure why he hasn't.

Yeah, Daryl has the best set of PA survival skills and the mentallity to make it alone in this brave new world out of everybody, no doubt about it, also agree about him not being leader material as well.

Got the impression that he and Rick were getting along well in the last episode though...possibly someone Rick will look at as a right hand man in the future...for a crazy redneck, he seems to be a man of who can be relied upon if asked to do something.

[Thorn]

Yeah, Daryl has the best set of PA survival skills and the mentallity to make it alone in this brave new world out of everybody, no doubt about it, also agree about him not being leader material as well.

Got the impression that he and Rick were getting along well in the last episode though...possibly someone Rick will look at as a right hand man in the future...for a crazy redneck, he seems to be a man of who can be relied upon if asked to do something.

Agreed, he would clearly be fine on his own in most circumstances. Also Rick is doing well with Daryl as his enforcer, punisher, torturer, and muscle.

[Legion2213]

@ Wyld I wish you the same brother, life and luck to you and yours.

As to the horde/herd in the woods, perhaps they were brought to the area more and more over time, the sounds of barnageddon, and all the rest. Then the sounds died so they went dormant, but they got closer and closer with each sound or each outburst... in this episode they said the creek was drying up unless I misheard which would mean it was no longer acting as a barrier. That is my theory on that.

No. You heard correctly, nice call...if it dries up, all those harmless lone walkers that Otis used to find stuck in the mud are going to be a problem.

[Thorn]

No. You heard correctly, nice call...if it dries up, all those harmless lone walkers that Otis used to find stuck in the mud are going to be a problem.

Exactly so what used to stop them in their tracks (literally) no longer does so and they are free to roam about and congregate and form a herd and when Carl fires the gun ('EFFIN CARL!!!) he draws in all of the zombies from the area around the farm that are no longer impeded by the water or mud...

[acealive1]

well, shane wasnt totally out of his mind. notice how he tried to give the gun to carl....and he refuses.....but rick offers him the same gun......so they both had the right idea. goes to show the chick drove him crazy but when it came to carl he was just fine

[Tricky]

@ babomb - Here is the full transcript of what my mate posted on Facebook
WARNING - DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE SEASON ENDS, CANT STRESS ENOUGH, MAJOR SPOILERS, IF YOU READ THIS AND RUIN IT FOR YOURSELF, DONT BLAME ME!!!!!!

Shot opens in Atlanta: a group of walkers are feasting on what looks like Rick's horse, or what's left of it, when they're startled by the sound of a helicopter flying overhead. The horde migrates over several days, weeks, a great distance, and eventually comes to a fence. The fence bows and breaks under the relentless forward motion of the walkers. The herd presses on. Wandering aimlessly in the forest, the walkers turn as a gunshot goes off like a beacon, leading them to dinner.
Soon they are closing in on Rick and Carl, as they leave the scene of Shane's murder.

Daryl and Glenn arrive back at the farmhouse. They explain that they heard a gunshot, and share their confounding findings about Randall.

As they walk back to the house, Carl asks Rick about what happened to Shane. Soon after, they notice the walkers bearing down on them, and it's not long before they are overtaken and have to make a run for the barn.
Back at the house, the rest of the survivors are just figuring out that Carl is missing and walkers are approaching. Lori is panicking. Hershel passes out the guns.

The horde is making quick work of the barn. Rick dumps gasoline everywhere, busts open the door to lure the zombies inside, and climbs up to the loft with Carl. Carl drops a lighter into the gasoline-soaked hay, igniting everything in sight.
Meanwhile, the men and Andrea shoot from their cars in a futile attempt to corral the herd and buy time.

Finally, Daryl figures out that Rick and Carl must be in the barn, and instructs Jimmy to drive the RV to the barn to rescue them. Rick and Carl manage to barely escape, while Jimmy is devoured inside the RV. Blood is everywhere, coating the windshield.
The survivors are starting to run out of ammo. The horde is too large.The women hold hands and make a run for it as Hershel makes a last stand for the farmhouse. They are just about clear when Patricia is attacked from the side and is devoured while Beth is still holding onto her.

Carol is headed off by a few walkers and backed into a corner with nothing but a plank of wood to defend herself. Andrea saves her but is attacked from behind and gets pinned under a walker
T-dog pulls his car around, but quickly has to leave the scene with Beth and Lori before the car is overtaken.

Glenn tells Maggie that the farm is lost; they have to get off the farm, now. Hershel comes to the same realization, almost too late, as a walker sneaks up from behind. Rick saves Herschel and they along with Carl head out in their own direction. Glenn and Maggie take off as well. Daryl finds Carol about to collapse from running, and they speed off together on Daryl's motorcycle.
Andrea is abandoned. The barn collapses into the flames. And we're not even halfway done.

The group is now scattered. Glenn and Maggie switch places in the car as Maggie breaks down and can't continue driving. Glenn says they need to make their way to the highway, but Maggie protests that the herd came from that direction. Glenn finally tells Maggie that he loves her.
Rick, Carl, and Hershel arrive at the highway, where they left the care package for Sophia, hoping that the others will think to rendezvous here. Hershel is ready to part ways, but Rick wants to stick together.

Lori and T-Dog argue over where to drive. T-Dog wants to head to the coast, but Lori threatens to jump out of the car if he doesn't turn around and go back to the highway.

A walker appears on the highway.
A walker appears on the highway. Rick is about to give up on waiting any longer, but… in the nick of time, the other survivors arrive. Time for a head count:

Shane - dead

Andrea - missing

Patricia - taken by the walkers

Jimmy - splattered all over the RV

Meanwhile, Andrea is running for her life in the woods, but the walkers pursue her tirelessly. She can't keep this up for long. Walkers are emerging from the trees in random directions as Andrea shoots to clear a path.
The survivors leave the highway, pushing onward, but soon run out of gas. Several people start to panic and are on the verge of giving up. Rick tries to pull everyone together. The conversation turns to Randall and Shane. Rick has to come clean. He reveals that the secret Jenner whispered to him at the CDC was that everyone is a carrier of the infection. The group is not happy that Rick has kept this from them.
Lori and Rick talk privately. Rick tells her what went down with Shane, and confesses that it wasn't just self-defense… he wanted Shane dead, he was tired of Shane dogging him and acting like Rick stole Lori and Carl from him. Lori freaks out when she finds out Carl's role in Shane's death and withdraws from Rick, refusing to let him touch her.
Andrea is exhausted. This is the end of the line. She can't carry her gun-bag any longer, her pistol is out of ammo -- she bashes in a walker's head with it -- now she's down to knives, another walker practically on top of her… enter Michonne to save Andrea at the last minute, towing two armless walkers in chains, samurai sword in hand.
The rest of the survivors set up camp in the middle of nowhere. They may have found each other again amid the chaos, but the group is still broken.
Many are ready to run off into the dark and leave Rick behind, fend for themselves. They are on the verge of splitting up again, when Rick takes back control... he says they're not going anywhere; he killed his best friend for them. This isn't a democracy anymore.

The camera pans up… in the distance looms a prison facility.

[acealive1]

No. You heard correctly, nice call...if it dries up, all those harmless lone walkers that Otis used to find stuck in the mud are going to be a problem.


if its getting cold......the zomibes are gonna have a tough time getting around. also....wouldnt it help to build a moat around the side of the farm where the creek is? something tells me daryl figured out where his gun is

-- -------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------


@ babomb - Here is the full transcript of what my mate posted on Facebook
WARNING - DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE SEASON ENDS, CANT STRESS ENOUGH, MAJOR SPOILERS, IF YOU READ THIS AND RUIN IT FOR YOURSELF, DONT BLAME ME!!!!!!

Shot opens in Atlanta: a group of walkers are feasting on what looks like Rick's horse, or what's left of it, when they're startled by the sound of a helicopter flying overhead. The horde migrates over several days, weeks, a great distance, and eventually comes to a fence. The fence bows and breaks under the relentless forward motion of the walkers. The herd presses on. Wandering aimlessly in the forest, the walkers turn as a gunshot goes off like a beacon, leading them to dinner.
Soon they are closing in on Rick and Carl, as they leave the scene of Shane's murder.

Daryl and Glenn arrive back at the farmhouse. They explain that they heard a gunshot, and share their confounding findings about Randall.

As they walk back to the house, Carl asks Rick about what happened to Shane. Soon after, they notice the walkers bearing down on them, and it's not long before they are overtaken and have to make a run for the barn.
Back at the house, the rest of the survivors are just figuring out that Carl is missing and walkers are approaching. Lori is panicking. Hershel passes out the guns.

The horde is making quick work of the barn. Rick dumps gasoline everywhere, busts open the door to lure the zombies inside, and climbs up to the loft with Carl. Carl drops a lighter into the gasoline-soaked hay, igniting everything in sight.
Meanwhile, the men and Andrea shoot from their cars in a futile attempt to corral the herd and buy time.

Finally, Daryl figures out that Rick and Carl must be in the barn, and instructs Jimmy to drive the RV to the barn to rescue them. Rick and Carl manage to barely escape, while Jimmy is devoured inside the RV. Blood is everywhere, coating the windshield.
The survivors are starting to run out of ammo. The horde is too large.The women hold hands and make a run for it as Hershel makes a last stand for the farmhouse. They are just about clear when Patricia is attacked from the side and is devoured while Beth is still holding onto her.

Carol is headed off by a few walkers and backed into a corner with nothing but a plank of wood to defend herself. Andrea saves her but is attacked from behind and gets pinned under a walker
T-dog pulls his car around, but quickly has to leave the scene with Beth and Lori before the car is overtaken.

Glenn tells Maggie that the farm is lost; they have to get off the farm, now. Hershel comes to the same realization, almost too late, as a walker sneaks up from behind. Rick saves Herschel and they along with Carl head out in their own direction. Glenn and Maggie take off as well. Daryl finds Carol about to collapse from running, and they speed off together on Daryl's motorcycle.
Andrea is abandoned. The barn collapses into the flames. And we're not even halfway done.

The group is now scattered. Glenn and Maggie switch places in the car as Maggie breaks down and can't continue driving. Glenn says they need to make their way to the highway, but Maggie protests that the herd came from that direction. Glenn finally tells Maggie that he loves her.
Rick, Carl, and Hershel arrive at the highway, where they left the care package for Sophia, hoping that the others will think to rendezvous here. Hershel is ready to part ways, but Rick wants to stick together.

Lori and T-Dog argue over where to drive. T-Dog wants to head to the coast, but Lori threatens to jump out of the car if he doesn't turn around and go back to the highway.

A walker appears on the highway.
A walker appears on the highway. Rick is about to give up on waiting any longer, but… in the nick of time, the other survivors arrive. Time for a head count:

Shane - dead

Andrea - missing

Patricia - taken by the walkers

Jimmy - splattered all over the RV

Meanwhile, Andrea is running for her life in the woods, but the walkers pursue her tirelessly. She can't keep this up for long. Walkers are emerging from the trees in random directions as Andrea shoots to clear a path.
The survivors leave the highway, pushing onward, but soon run out of gas. Several people start to panic and are on the verge of giving up. Rick tries to pull everyone together. The conversation turns to Randall and Shane. Rick has to come clean. He reveals that the secret Jenner whispered to him at the CDC was that everyone is a carrier of the infection. The group is not happy that Rick has kept this from them.
Lori and Rick talk privately. Rick tells her what went down with Shane, and confesses that it wasn't just self-defense… he wanted Shane dead, he was tired of Shane dogging him and acting like Rick stole Lori and Carl from him. Lori freaks out when she finds out Carl's role in Shane's death and withdraws from Rick, refusing to let him touch her.
Andrea is exhausted. This is the end of the line. She can't carry her gun-bag any longer, her pistol is out of ammo -- she bashes in a walker's head with it -- now she's down to knives, another walker practically on top of her… enter Michonne to save Andrea at the last minute, towing two armless walkers in chains, samurai sword in hand.
The rest of the survivors set up camp in the middle of nowhere. They may have found each other again amid the chaos, but the group is still broken.
Many are ready to run off into the dark and leave Rick behind, fend for themselves. They are on the verge of splitting up again, when Rick takes back control... he says they're not going anywhere; he killed his best friend for them. This isn't a democracy anymore.

The camera pans up… in the distance looms a prison facility.




:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Legion2213]

well, shane wasnt totally out of his mind. notice how he tried to give the gun to carl....and he refuses.....but rick offers him the same gun......so they both had the right idea. goes to show the chick drove him crazy but when it came to carl he was just fine

Watching him slap himself in the shed with Randal was deeply troubling, you just knew he was about to do something dark. :)

[Thorn]

Watching him slap himself in the shed with Randal was deeply troubling, you just knew he was about to do something dark. :)

Him trying to give the gun to Carl was wrong, he is not his father... nor his mother. You do not arm a child without that child's permission. UNLESS the zombies are are their way in and you have no choice, in that case that is a decision for Carl's parents.

Him slapping himself and so much else he did through the seasons were clear signs he was losing it. Dating back to the subtle looks in season 1... to him pounding the crap out of Ed in a deserved but over the top fashion given the situation, shaving his head, and so on down the line. Shane has been painted very well by the writers and actor as a man slowly losing himself and "it".

He has been an enjoyable character, and yes the slapping of the head and staring and pointing the gun were brilliantly done signs of the coming explosion.

I loved Jon Bernthal (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1256532/)'s portrayal of Shane throughout the series and wish him well in the future.

[bassman]

I'm just happy I no longer have to hear him say some variation of "Go on, now". It's like it was his catch phrase....

[Thorn]

I'm just happy I no longer have to hear him say some variation of "Go on, now". It's like it was his catch phrase....

Except with Andrea in the car it was "come on now..." I think, I was still in shock she grabbed his junk on TV.

[acealive1]

Watching him slap himself in the shed with Randal was deeply troubling, you just knew he was about to do something dark. :)


well wouldnt u do the same thing to someone like randall?

-- -------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------


Him trying to give the gun to Carl was wrong, he is not his father... nor his mother. You do not arm a child without that child's permission. UNLESS the zombies are are their way in and you have no choice, in that case that is a decision for Carl's parents.

Him slapping himself and so much else he did through the seasons were clear signs he was losing it. Dating back to the subtle looks in season 1... to him pounding the crap out of Ed in a deserved but over the top fashion given the situation, shaving his head, and so on down the line. Shane has been painted very well by the writers and actor as a man slowly losing himself and "it".

He has been an enjoyable character, and yes the slapping of the head and staring and pointing the gun were brilliantly done signs of the coming explosion.

I loved Jon Bernthal (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1256532/)'s portrayal of Shane throughout the series and wish him well in the future.



so who's responsible for him going crazy and being killed? himself or lori?

[Legion2213]

well wouldnt u do the same thing to someone like randall?[COLOR="Silver"]


Ace, what he did with Randall was try to engineer a situation where he could murder his best friend so he could take his family off him and become the leader (his BS story about Randall taking his gun was so that he could blame Randall for the murder as well).

I would have left Randall on the fence he was impaled on...if I was feeling merciful, I would have put a bullet in his head to save him being eaten alive.

[babomb]

@ babomb - Here is the full transcript of what my mate posted on Facebook
WARNING - DO NOT READ THIS UNLESS YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE SEASON ENDS, CANT STRESS ENOUGH, MAJOR SPOILERS, IF YOU READ THIS AND RUIN IT FOR YOURSELF, DONT BLAME ME!!!!!!

Shot opens in Atlanta: a group of walkers are feasting on what looks like Rick's horse, or what's left of it, when they're startled by the sound of a helicopter flying overhead. The horde migrates over several days, weeks, a great distance, and eventually comes to a fence. The fence bows and breaks under the relentless forward motion of the walkers. The herd presses on. Wandering aimlessly in the forest, the walkers turn as a gunshot goes off like a beacon, leading them to dinner.
Soon they are closing in on Rick and Carl, as they leave the scene of Shane's murder.

Daryl and Glenn arrive back at the farmhouse. They explain that they heard a gunshot, and share their confounding findings about Randall.

As they walk back to the house, Carl asks Rick about what happened to Shane. Soon after, they notice the walkers bearing down on them, and it's not long before they are overtaken and have to make a run for the barn.
Back at the house, the rest of the survivors are just figuring out that Carl is missing and walkers are approaching. Lori is panicking. Hershel passes out the guns.

The horde is making quick work of the barn. Rick dumps gasoline everywhere, busts open the door to lure the zombies inside, and climbs up to the loft with Carl. Carl drops a lighter into the gasoline-soaked hay, igniting everything in sight.
Meanwhile, the men and Andrea shoot from their cars in a futile attempt to corral the herd and buy time.

Finally, Daryl figures out that Rick and Carl must be in the barn, and instructs Jimmy to drive the RV to the barn to rescue them. Rick and Carl manage to barely escape, while Jimmy is devoured inside the RV. Blood is everywhere, coating the windshield.
The survivors are starting to run out of ammo. The horde is too large.The women hold hands and make a run for it as Hershel makes a last stand for the farmhouse. They are just about clear when Patricia is attacked from the side and is devoured while Beth is still holding onto her.

Carol is headed off by a few walkers and backed into a corner with nothing but a plank of wood to defend herself. Andrea saves her but is attacked from behind and gets pinned under a walker
T-dog pulls his car around, but quickly has to leave the scene with Beth and Lori before the car is overtaken.

Glenn tells Maggie that the farm is lost; they have to get off the farm, now. Hershel comes to the same realization, almost too late, as a walker sneaks up from behind. Rick saves Herschel and they along with Carl head out in their own direction. Glenn and Maggie take off as well. Daryl finds Carol about to collapse from running, and they speed off together on Daryl's motorcycle.
Andrea is abandoned. The barn collapses into the flames. And we're not even halfway done.

The group is now scattered. Glenn and Maggie switch places in the car as Maggie breaks down and can't continue driving. Glenn says they need to make their way to the highway, but Maggie protests that the herd came from that direction. Glenn finally tells Maggie that he loves her.
Rick, Carl, and Hershel arrive at the highway, where they left the care package for Sophia, hoping that the others will think to rendezvous here. Hershel is ready to part ways, but Rick wants to stick together.

Lori and T-Dog argue over where to drive. T-Dog wants to head to the coast, but Lori threatens to jump out of the car if he doesn't turn around and go back to the highway.

A walker appears on the highway.
A walker appears on the highway. Rick is about to give up on waiting any longer, but… in the nick of time, the other survivors arrive. Time for a head count:

Shane - dead

Andrea - missing

Patricia - taken by the walkers

Jimmy - splattered all over the RV

Meanwhile, Andrea is running for her life in the woods, but the walkers pursue her tirelessly. She can't keep this up for long. Walkers are emerging from the trees in random directions as Andrea shoots to clear a path.
The survivors leave the highway, pushing onward, but soon run out of gas. Several people start to panic and are on the verge of giving up. Rick tries to pull everyone together. The conversation turns to Randall and Shane. Rick has to come clean. He reveals that the secret Jenner whispered to him at the CDC was that everyone is a carrier of the infection. The group is not happy that Rick has kept this from them.
Lori and Rick talk privately. Rick tells her what went down with Shane, and confesses that it wasn't just self-defense… he wanted Shane dead, he was tired of Shane dogging him and acting like Rick stole Lori and Carl from him. Lori freaks out when she finds out Carl's role in Shane's death and withdraws from Rick, refusing to let him touch her.
Andrea is exhausted. This is the end of the line. She can't carry her gun-bag any longer, her pistol is out of ammo -- she bashes in a walker's head with it -- now she's down to knives, another walker practically on top of her… enter Michonne to save Andrea at the last minute, towing two armless walkers in chains, samurai sword in hand.
The rest of the survivors set up camp in the middle of nowhere. They may have found each other again amid the chaos, but the group is still broken.
Many are ready to run off into the dark and leave Rick behind, fend for themselves. They are on the verge of splitting up again, when Rick takes back control... he says they're not going anywhere; he killed his best friend for them. This isn't a democracy anymore.

The camera pans up… in the distance looms a prison facility. Fuckin awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for that Tricky!! Man, if all that's actually true(which I don't really doubt, but ya never know), I'd consider parting with a body part(not that one) to have season 3 here right now! Damn!!!

[Neil]

Where does the title of the episode come from?

-- -------- Post added at 10:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------


Every single viewer knew and understood that this was where Shane died.**ummm hand up** I didn't!

[Thorn]

well wouldnt u do the same thing to someone like randall?

-- -------- Post added at 04:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------





so who's responsible for him going crazy and being killed? himself or lori?

No one is to blame for his insanity, he went crazy that is all there is to it. Bad things are done to people all the time time, people don't always go crazy and start hurting others... Shane went down a road he went down for whatever reasons but blaming someone else for his "insanity" to me seems wrong. A lot of it was situational, and a lot of it was internal, and a lot of it was human involvement. There is no one thing.

[shootemindehead]

Where does the title of the episode come from?

Probably the "Better Angels of our nature" quote from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address.

"I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

[acealive1]

No one is to blame for his insanity, he went crazy that is all there is to it. Bad things are done to people all the time time, people don't always go crazy and start hurting others... Shane went down a road he went down for whatever reasons but blaming someone else for his "insanity" to me seems wrong. A lot of it was situational, and a lot of it was internal, and a lot of it was human involvement. There is no one thing.


so lets say him and lori never got it done.....i seriously doubt he ever goes crazy, kills otis and gets killed by rick.

[AcesandEights]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/417265_251590404931116_199020000188157_528084_9343 12372_n.jpg

[Thorn]

Probably the "Better Angels of our nature" quote from Abraham Lincoln's first inaugural address.

"I am loath to close. We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battlefield and patriot grave to every living heart and hearthstone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

Agreed and this is an amazing quote and loved it in the title of the show.

As to Shane going crazy maybe you are right that doesn't make it anyone's fault, just like Lori elected to have sex with Shane he elected to have sex with her. She can not be blamed for his failings or illnesses, weaknesses, or afflictions.

[rightwing401]

Lori may not have been ultimately responsible for Shane's loss of sanity, but you have to admit that she played one hell of a hand in finally pushing him over the edge. Keep in mind, he already ranted to her about how Rick wasn't really supposed to come back and how she and him were destined to be together...

And this episode she decides that the best thing to tell him when confronting him about the issue of their repeated romps in the hay and her not knowing who's the little bun in the oven's daddy is to essentially say that what she and Shane had while they were together and Rick wasn't there was a real thing? Just what the hell did she think he was going to take away from that little confession? Gee, did it cross her mind that Shane just might interpret that as they would still be a 'loving family' if Rick had stayed out of the picture, instead of not only loosing all of that but having everything you lost being waved right under your nose on a daily basis? And that maybe, just maybe, in his now really warped mind, if Rick 'goes', then he could get all that back instead of braving this horrible new world all alone.

[Neil]

...I'm sure it's already been covered in the thread, but of course now the group knows that anyone who dies, comes back...

[Thorn]

Lori may not have been ultimately responsible for Shane's loss of sanity, but you have to admit that she played one hell of a hand in finally pushing him over the edge. Keep in mind, he already ranted to her about how Rick wasn't really supposed to come back and how she and him were destined to be together...

And this episode she decides that the best thing to tell him when confronting him about the issue of their repeated romps in the hay and her not knowing who's the little bun in the oven's daddy is to essentially say that what she and Shane had while they were together and Rick wasn't there was a real thing? Just what the hell did she think he was going to take away from that little confession? Gee, did it cross her mind that Shane just might interpret that as they would still be a 'loving family' if Rick had stayed out of the picture, instead of not only loosing all of that but having everything you lost being waved right under your nose on a daily basis? And that maybe, just maybe, in his now really warped mind, if Rick 'goes', then he could get all that back instead of braving this horrible new world all alone.

I admit that would bother me as a person, it would not push me over any edge, again we have what we have in us. The fact that people are saying Lori and Carl and the potential baby are what drove Shane insane further proves my point he would be a horrible leader. We all have our issues, but when the chips are down is when I think the most clearly, I actually delight in a crisis situation because I click into another gear.

If your mind is so fragile you can't handle being spurned by a lover you are the one who in fact has no business in the "zombie infested world" not someone like Dale.

-- -------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 AM ----------


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/417265_251590404931116_199020000188157_528084_9343 12372_n.jpg


Saw this on facebook and laughed my arse off!!!

[paranoid101]

Well that was hell of an episode, way too much to take in lol.

You know I'm going to miss Shane, at the start of the episode I was saying to my lass that maybe Shane might be in the series for a while, guess not lol.

They seemed very close to the house for Shane to murder Rick I wonder If Carl saw them going at it from that window he was looking through with the binoculars and If that's so why didn't he tell anyone else instead of running over there.

Pfft TV shows and their screwed up logic.

Great episode not sure if I can wait till next Friday for the last one lol

[EvilNed]

Glad they killed off Shane. I'd had enough with his whining and bitching for an entire season, straight. Also, other characters reactions to him were ludicrous at best. People were ignoring the fact they had a psycho sleeping under the same roofs as themselves by just putting their fingers in their ears and going "La-la-la". Made everyone look like idiots, Rick included. Everyone save for Dale that is. But he dead now!

[MinionZombie]

FANTASTIC EPISODE! :hyper:

I was up until 2am last night because I couldn't stop thinking about the episode, replaying it in my head. :) Anyway...

1) Opening montage was great. The memorial for Dale really felt genuine, no doubt because the actors themselves were sorry to see Jeff DeMunn leaving the show, and combining it with the group taking out their hate on some nearby zombies was awesome. Andrea with a pitchfork? Yes please. She's well versed in weapons these days isn't she? Guns, a scythe, now a pitchfork - good to see T-Dog actually getting something to do too, and the spade-hit to the one zombie's head with it's re-dying moments written across it's face was great. KNB knock it out of the park yet again. :)

2) The scene in the shed with Shane and Randall - the unravelling of Shane's mind - it was good to see that he was wrestling with either turning over a new leaf (as Rick said to Hershel) or finally taking on the darkness within him, and indeed he found it as an opportunity to take down Rick ... the sick bastard. Jon Bernthal did an excellent job in this episode.

3) Daryl the super ninja zombie hunter teamed up with Glenn? MORE PLEASE. Good to see Daryl becoming more a part of the group - him taking the gun from Rick and doing what was necessary with Dale has made him a key member of the group once more in his own eyes, I think, and even though he's still somewhat 'out there', he's coming back into the fold which is nice. His tracking skills are excellent too.

4) The two teams split up in the woods - excellent use of tension - the makers of this show seem to have an incredible ability to craft genuine tension. When zombie Randal attacked Glenn and Daryl, I was afraid one of them was going to get a bite, so when they took the zed down and we cut to the advert break I breathed quite the sigh of relief. The creeping sense of dread on their faces as Daryl realises that Randall died of a broken neck only was really good.

5) Winding back a bit, Randall's showed himself to be a very tricksy and untrustworthy guy. He was naive to believe Shane was leaving the camp, and the way he so easily championed his group a mere five miles away was disturbing. Somehow I doubt he remained on the outskirts when his group gangraped those campers. Glad to see Randall gone, that shady bastard.

6) Fast forward to Rick vs Shane - omfg what an excellent scene. So well written, so well directed, and genuinely tense ... even though I have always known that Shane was on 'borrowed time' having extended his lifetime beyond the end of Volume 1 of the trade paperbacks, I got so wrapped up in the scene and the staging of the scene, that I was starting to wonder if they'd kill off Rick in a dramatic turn around. I simultaneously knew that would be ludicrous and idiotic, but the scene was so well handled that it kept me on the edge of my seat. I was wondering if Rick would do the 'underhand gun fire' trick like you see in some movies when he was slowly handing his gun over to Shane, but then boom - knife to the heart - an excellent tweaking to Shane's demise from the comics. Metaphors galore, but also up close and personal. I was wanting even more of Rick damning Shane for making him do that to him, but even still, the scene was so well made by all involved.

Having Carl then shoot the zombie Shane was a nice twist on the events of Volume 1, and it tied in really well with the previous episode's events.

7) ZOMBIE HORDE!!!!! The preview for the next episode looks flipping epic! Absolutely cannot wait to see it! I wonder if the end of 2x12 was going to the be the original ending of the season, prior to the episode 1 & 2 issue? Looks like all hell breaks loose in the next episode - I'm so amped for it!

[Neil]

...I'm sure it's already been covered in the thread, but of course now the group knows that anyone who dies, comes back...

No one seems to comment on this?

[babomb]

No one seems to comment on this? They will be tomorrow!!

[MinionZombie]

No one seems to comment on this?

It's a fair point actually - and he didn't have to wait too long for it either.

Again, as I've said in my full post elsewhere in the thread, that whole last quarter of the episode was handled so well, but damn Lori, you need to get one of those toddler leashes for Carl. :lol: Speaking of which - that picture that Aces posted was friggin' hilarious. :D

[Neil]

you need to get one of those toddler leashes for Carl
Yeh, I've mentioned before the way characters (especially children) just wonder off alone (into the woods?) without seemingly any real concern annoys me...

[MinionZombie]

Yeh, I've mentioned before the way characters (especially children) just wonder off alone (into the woods?) without seemingly any real concern annoys me...

But I suppose they get around it in this portion of 2x12 because the downstairs windows are boarded up, but not the top ones, and the one where Carl is, is right next to the porch roof (so you can easily escape ... I'm sure Maggie will have done just that for the odd tryst in the family barn on occasion pre-zeds, that cheeky minx :o) ... and then well, I suppose kids can easily get away from you, either in a crowded area (like a mall - it's happened many times in the past) or even in a wide open area. Perhaps the group lets their guard down somewhat in that area - it's very peaceful and is wide open (something we've noticed much more in these last few episodes, thanks to Mazzara's wise choice to extend the visual scope of the show to bring in the sense of location scale).

So, when you've got a massive debate going on regarding whether to kill Randall or not, you could see how that could happen ... there is a degree of suspension of belief required for it, though. I think they need to watch that in season 3, but I have a feeling that Carl will be less inclined to go walkabout from now on (indeed, the worst times with him doing it recently have been linked to his attitude change where he was becoming rather cavalier about the value of human life - which resulted in poor old Dale getting the chop).

However it did have to happen in 2x12 that Carl killed zombie Shane ... or Zhane, if you will ... because it was a tweaking of Carl shooting human Shane in the neck in Volume 1, and it also ties in with Carl not shooting the walker that killed Dale. So thematically it made sense, but yeah, certain members of the group could do with improving their child-minding skills ... if they were in this country they'd never get a certificate! :lol:

[Tricky]

As with other threads I cant say much more than MZ has here, although I missed the first bit before the opening credits so I'll have to watch again! Really good episode, I almost thought Shane was going to be ok after his chat with Lori, but obviously that spurred him on to think that if Rick was out of the way he maybe had another chance with her. The only part I did find a little cheesy was when Shane came back from the dead, he suddenly sat bolt upright like in a 50's B-movie horror, and I found it a little odd that Rick was telling Carl to put the gun down but was oblivious to the snarling Shane zombie behind him that wasnt exactly being quiet, it wasnt a bad scene but it just seemed to be suffering from cliches a bit...

[AnxietyDilemma]

The only part I did find a little cheesy was when Shane came back from the dead, he suddenly sat bolt upright like in a 50's B-movie horror, and I found it a little odd that Rick was telling Carl to put the gun down but was oblivious to the snarling Shane zombie behind him that wasnt exactly being quiet, it wasnt a bad scene but it just seemed to be suffering from cliches a bit...

Just be thankful that Nicotero rejected Bernthal's request to have his character yell "RIIIIICK" when he re-animated.

[Tricky]

Just be thankful that Nicotero rejected Bernthal's request to have his character yell "RIIIIICK" when he re-animated.

I'll be very thankful of that! As soon as TWD walkers start showing any kind of evolution or "Big Daddy" intelligence, I'll stop watching!

[Neil]

Just be thankful that Nicotero rejected Bernthal's request to have his character yell "RIIIIICK" when he re-animated.
Really? Did he really not get what a huge mistake that would be!?

[bassman]

Really? Did he really not get what a huge mistake that would be!?

Apparently not. I guess Bernthal wanted to go out on a bigger bang, but didn't consider how it could ruin the rest of the series...

[MinionZombie]

Apparently not. I guess Bernthal wanted to go out on a bigger bang, but didn't consider how it could ruin the rest of the series...

To be fair, probably not all of the cast members are as versed in zombie lore as us lot and the writers/directors of the show.

[paranoid101]

1) Opening montage was great. The memorial for Dale really felt genuine, no doubt because the actors themselves were sorry to see Jeff DeMunn leaving the show, and combining it with the group taking out their hate on some nearby zombies was awesome. Andrea with a pitchfork? Yes please. She's well versed in weapons these days isn't she? Guns, a scythe, now a pitchfork - good to see T-Dog actually getting something to do too, and the spade-hit to the one zombie's head with it's re-dying moments written across it's face was great. KNB knock it out of the park yet again. :)



The zombie killing scene at the start for some reason Reminded me of the film Office Space when they take out there rage on the Printer lol

[MinionZombie]

The zombie killing scene at the start for some reason Reminded me of the film Office Space when they take out there rage on the Printer lol

haha! I dare someone to remix that sequence to the music from that bit in Office Space. :D

Also, just wanted to add a little something - when Glenn kills that zombie, it's a nice tie-in with his character arc in recent episodes. He felt he failed at the bar, but here he takes out zombie Randall ... or Zandall if you will :p ... and what I also dug was that Daryl was genuinely impressed, and gave him a little belly pat of congratulations.

Definitely want to see more Daryl/Glenn zombie huntin' action - I think they'd make a great on-screen duo.

[bassman]

I think it was Aces that actually mentioned that within the first few pages of this thread....

[MinionZombie]

I think it was Aces that actually mentioned that within the first few pages of this thread....

Well that goes to show how much I've scanned back through this thread... :o

[paranoid101]

I think it was Aces that actually mentioned that within the first few pages of this thread....

Yep he did lol, just need someone that can edit it in slow motion lol

[Neil]

Having seen the end of the episode again, I'm a little annoyed at Shane's makeup when he came back. Within a minute of being dead, drawn in cheaks, protruding eyebrows, misty eyes? Cummon... We know he's dead... We know he's a zombie... We don't need the visual cues...

He should have almost looked absolutely normal except his colour, as obviously he'd bled out a bit...

Shame that!

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, the "eyes thing" is really annoying.

[ProfessorChaos]

looking back, i kinda wish they'd ended 2x12 and started 2x13 a little differently...and it involves carl's ass staying in the house (like they always tell him). i think it'd been a much more powerful scene if rick had stabbed shane then just sat there with his body till glenn and daryl came to investigate the shot that shane fired on reflex when stabbed.

then rick could've told them about what happened between him and shane (daryl was already on the verge of figuring this out) as well as what jenner said...then as soon as shane came to, they could've just shot him (if they were opting for a quick "humane" death rather than bashing the guy's skull in), which would've allowed the story to progress with the herd hearing the shot and making their way to the farm.

as a fan of the comics, i know that this really goes out of line of the source material by leaving carl out of the deal, but carl's little rebel routine had worn thin enough this season that by the time he showed up to check on rick and put shane down, i almost laughed that he was once again out fucking off in the middle of the night with an escaped (and presumed armed) prisoner on the loose in the middle of the walker plague....all by himself, like always...oh, i guess he's got his billy-bad-ass hat to protect him.

anyhow, 2x13 opening with rick, glenn, and daryl fighting their way back to the house would've been more exciting, if you ask me. and then there'd be one less instance of the "where's carl" routine.

just something that popped through my head today. thoughts, anyone?

[Andy]

Dont worry, next season they can just lock carl in a cell :p

[Trin]

Great Episode! I'm slowly getting caught up on TWD.

Good riddance to Shane. He was done and needed to go. It really was over for either Shane or Rick when they had the fist-fight at the school, and I'm glad it was Shane who exited. As I have avoided any spoilers (not even reading this board for weeks) and I have not read the comics I was completely surprised to see Shane get killed. If you'd asked me whether it was possible or not I would've said his character was too important to the show's success to kill him.

Anyone who wants to argue about Shane's bad-assery being an asset in the new zombie world can eat their words now. Shane wussed out when it came time to pull the trigger. He let Rick get him. I like what someone noted earlier in the thread ... I think there was a self-destructive, almost suicidal, aspect to Shane. Did he really lose to Rick? Or did he recognize that Rick needed to win?

And Dale. I liked Dale a lot. But he had gotten too preachy. Too mired in his one-trick moralistic argument. Both Shane and Dale had become so over-the-top in their opinions that it was implausible. It was hurting the show's believability to have either of them. So while I will miss Dale I think he needed to go too. The show needs better balance. It needs a core group that is believable, plausible, and (mostly) united. Some conflict is good, of course, but they'd strayed way too far down that path. I think the current cast is right for moving forward.

Herschel is a good example. He's become a very good character after his fall from righteousness. He makes good decisions now. Decisions that make sense for his character and that viewers aren't left just shaking their heads.

And Daryl is back! I got really down on TWD when Daryl stopped showing any concern for the group. Having Daryl and Glenn track down Randal in the woods was classic Daryl and such a great scene. Daryl is one smart cookie, finding tracks, checking for bites, piecing it all together. If Shane had been successful in killing Rick it would've taken about 30 seconds for Daryl to piece together what really happened.

And Daryl has about the best centered moral compass of any of them. He can be tough like Shane. But he will take risks for the sake of others like Rick would (as evidenced by the fact that Daryl is the FIRST to go searching for anyone who is missing). He is a great balance of idealistic and pragmatic. And Daryl is every bit as good at any of them at surviving.

I liked the showdown with Shane. But I hated the cut-scenes of carnage as Shane was waking back up. I'd prefer that they NEVER show us anything of what it's like to be a zombie. It ruins the unknown horror of it all.

I was irritated by the plot holes. Rick let Shane lead him around in a circle until they were within sight of the farm again? A horde of zombies appears just over the hill? Wow.

Again, great episode!

[Sammich]

I liked the showdown with Shane. But I hated the cut-scenes of carnage as Shane was waking back up. I'd prefer that they NEVER show us anything of what it's like to be a zombie. It ruins the unknown horror of it all.



I really thought the Shane to zombie transformation was disturbing. Instead of the often mentioned entire life flashing before one's eyes or serene floating into a bright light mentioned by many who were brought back from clinical death, now the last thing you see is images of having to exist in eternal hell.

[Ragnarr]

I really thought the Shane to zombie transformation was disturbing. Instead of the often mentioned entire life flashing before one's eyes or serene floating into a bright light mentioned by many who were brought back from clinical death, now the last thing you see is images of having to exist in eternal hell.

Shane being Shane, I thought they were just showing flashes of the usual stuff in his thoughts. Who would have imagined that it was zombie transformational flashes?

[Thorn]

And Daryl has about the best centered moral compass of any of them. He can be tough like Shane. But he will take risks for the sake of others like Rick would (as evidenced by the fact that Daryl is the FIRST to go searching for anyone who is missing). He is a great balance of idealistic and pragmatic. And Daryl is every bit as good at any of them at surviving.


Very well said!