My Lai 2012?

[Tricky]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/uk-afghanistan-civilians-idUKBRE82A02X20120311

That nutcase has probably just recruited an entire army of Taliban with his actions, and there will no doubt be more deaths among ISAF troops as a result, it'll be interesting to hear what his explanation is.
I personally think its high time we quit that sorry shithole of a country and stop trying to turn it into a shining beacon of democracy when it clearly is never going to happen. The UK has now lost over 400 good lads out there and I know the US has lost a lot more, has any of it been worth it?

Their stories are all here
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/OperationsFactsheets/OperationsInAfghanistanBritishFatalities.htm

[Neil]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/uk-afghanistan-civilians-idUKBRE82A02X20120311

That nutcase has probably just recruited an entire army of Taliban with his actions, and there will no doubt be more deaths among ISAF troops as a result, it'll be interesting to hear what his explanation is.
I personally think its high time we quit that sorry shithole of a country and stop trying to turn it into a shining beacon of democracy when it clearly is never going to happen. The UK has now lost over 400 good lads out there and I know the US has lost a lot more, has any of it been worth it?

Their stories are all here
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/OperationsFactsheets/OperationsInAfghanistanBritishFatalities.htm

Do you not fear that if we just dash out, and leave the country to fall back into the mess it was:-
a) All the deaths there would have been for nothing.
b) It will also threated to destabilise Pakistan?

[Tricky]

Do you not fear that if we just dash out, and leave the country to fall back into the mess it was:-
a) All the deaths there would have been for nothing.
b) It will also threated to destabilise Pakistan?

The tragic part is it will anyway, the Afghan national army will crumble as soon as we pull out whether we do it now or in ten years time, and the Taliban will get all the lovely Gucci kit that we've equipped them with courtesy of the British taxpayer. All those lads we've lost there have died for nothing despite every single one of them being a credit to their regiments and Britain. We achieved what we went in there to do a long time ago - i.e. smash Al Qeadas Afghan bases - all we're doing now is wasting time, money and lives while annoying the locals who just want us gone. As for Pakistan, it already looks pretty unstable to me...

[Sammich]

This incident is NOTHING compared to all of the "collateral damage" (i.e. innocent civilian deaths) that has been caused over the years by drone strikes, but it's negative impact will be much more significant as it wasn't done by a faceless CIA armchair video game warrior 6,000 miles away.

If Bin Laden is now dead, then why is the U.S. still in Afghanistan? To guard the poppy fields?

[Neil]

while annoying the locals who just want us goneNot quite as black and white as that is it... I suspect a lot of folks are joyful at the Taliban being out of power!


As for Pakistan, it already looks pretty unstable to me...Well, most of the terrorist activity comes from there, so the last thing we want is to make it even worse...

[Tricky]

Not quite as black and white as that is it... I suspect a lot of folks are joyful at the Taliban being out of power!


From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's. Every incident like this one or a misplaced JDAM or even killing cattle etc is just turning the locals sympathy towards the Taliban rather than ISAF.

[Neil]

From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's. Every incident like this one or a misplaced JDAM or even killing cattle etc is just turning the locals sympathy towards the Taliban rather than ISAF.

Hmmm... Don't know what the answer is...

I guess though the idea was to get Alqaeda out, and that's pretty much been achieved. But now were taking the Taliban on, and the difficultly there is it's a cultural disposition for their dominance.

It's just a mess.


And the the fact Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths show the level of madness. So a mentally deranged US soldier goes on a killing sprea. The Taliban then make a considered plan to go an kill other innocent people to even the scales? Balmy!

[Tricky]

And the the fact Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths show the level of madness. So a mentally deranged US soldier goes on a killing sprea. The Taliban then make a considered plan to go an kill other innocent people to even the scales? Balmy!

Yeah, but I guess its also tied in with that recent video of US troops urinating on dead Taliban and burning the Muslim holy book, really doesnt do our supposedly noble cause any favours. The whole thing is just a mess really.

[Danny]

From what I gather from people who have served there the ordinary locals arent really bothered one way or the other, they just want us gone so that they dont have firefights going on in their neighbourhoods on a regular basis or their kids picking up IED's.

so normal folk living in a warzone then...

[SymphonicX]

First the burning of the Koran, and now the massascre of innocent children...

That's done it. That's totally done it. Those two events have single handedly ruined any small chance of gaining the respect of the Afghan people and it's given fuel to the Taliban propaganda machine for decades if not hundreds of years! These two events will be promoted as not just a justification, but as an example of brutal Western military intervention.

Bit of a shame - but that's now made it all in vain. If you went back ten years and asked the average person "what two things do you think we could do to inflame secular hate against the entire Western world?" the answers would most likely come back as "I dunno, piss on a bunch of Korans and kill some innocent Afghany kids"...

I mean...what could one possibly possibly do that would be worse?

And of COURSE the taliban are going to cry vengeance! That's not "balmy"...not at all. if someone killed a bunch of your friends/family I think the first thing you'd cry is vengeance. Just look at 9/11 - people didn't even need to know who'd actually committed the atrocity before loudly proclaiming we should bomb every middle eastern country in the world in retaliation. It's a natural reaction to shout about getting revenge.

If they simply turned a blind eye to this atrocity, how would they hold onto their power? Of course they are going to cry vengeance. We would too. There's nothing balmy about it. They see us as the enemy - so why does that seem anything but quite rational? I don't blame them for screaming vengeance, not at all.

Doesn't matter when we leave now - it's f*cked. Doesn't matter if we wiped out the entire taliban (which is entirely impossible), another secular tribe would use the atrocities committed before and after as further reason to take up arms against the west. These situations have well and truly fucked any political chances with the Taliban - who are there to stay.

[Tricky]

so normal folk living in a warzone then...

Indeed, but one which has already dragged on for twice the length of World War 2 with no sign of a victory for either side...

[shootemindehead]

I have no doubt in my mind that this massacre is just one of many. The only reason we've heard about it, is because it hadn't been locked down securely.

In a conflict where there is no real idea what one is fighting for, these types of events are bound to happen. Most of the western soldiers on the ground over there haven't the first clue on what they're there for, or who they're really fighting, or what the endgame is/was supposed to be. Add to that the general distrust of western motives in the region (and the Middle East in general), which is held by a lot of the personnel and it's a boiling pot that can go over very easily.

As for getting rid of Al Qaeda; they may have been ousted from Afghanistan (to all intents and purposes), but they've been scattered very far and wide now and their reach is long, as evidenced by their contribution in Libya last year and Syria now, which is not good for anyone in those areas.

The simple fact is, is that the western powers took their eye of the Afghan ball (deliberately), because the prize of oil in Iraq proved too much of a draw to the long term interests of George Bush's string-pullers, who don't care a jot about Al Qaeda, The Taliban or Afghans.

[Danny]

I have no doubt in my mind that this massacre is just one of many. The only reason we've heard about it, is because it hadn't been locked down securely.

In a conflict where there is no real idea what one is fighting for, these types of events are bound to happen. Most of the western soldiers on the ground over there haven't the first clue on what they're there for, or who they're really fighting, or what the endgame is/was supposed to be. Add to that the general distrust of western motives in the region (and the Middle East in general), which is held by a lot of the personnel and it's a boiling pot that can go over very easily.

sad but true, combine that with war weariness from western armys used to a crushing smackdown- and the volunteer nature of such armys and the modern idea of the trained machine of the marine infantry is skewd when they have to 'settle' and lower standards....

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/khazrak/us-army-military-demotivational-poster-1242443008.jpg
pic related.

[Mike70]

i have become so numb to this kind of stuff that it is terrible to say that i no longer care. this world seems to be bent on a path towards self-destruction for a vast number of reasons. the deaths of afghan civilians is just a small, small part of the idiocy and madness that seems to be gripping our planet. i'm deeply pessimistic about everything now and my pessimism is matched only by my complete, total and utter indifference to such things.

sorry folks, i have simply lost the ability to care. i know what the soldiers in iraq and afghanistan are going through and i must block it out. i joined the army when i was young out of deep desire to serve and protect this republic. all it got me was a trip to somalia and an adulthood full of psychiatric problems because of things that i saw and did (some of which fucking haunt my sleep and make it hard to look in the mirror sometimes). am i really the monster that did that? am i a person? i've been trying to figure that out since 1993 and when i go to the clinic and see the WWII vets and korea vets who have finally come forward for treatment, i think that i might never figure it out.

that is why with very few exceptions made for some extremely old friends, i retreat further everyday into myself, into music, into my guitar, into literature; because i simply want nothing to do with this nightmarish and horrible world. but i come from a family that ages like numenoreans, so i'm probably stuck here for a good bit, because as horrible as i find this world, i intend to hold on to every single second i have coming to me - maybe i just want to be around for the ending.

[Tricky]

Sorry to hear you're still going through that Mike, I knew you'd served but didnt realise you were affected by it that much. Shame theres that fucking great big ocean in the way or I'd say get your arse out for a beer with me!

[Mike70]

Sorry to hear you're still going through that Mike, I knew you'd served but didnt realise you were affected by it that much. Shame theres that fucking great big ocean in the way or I'd say get your arse out for a beer with me!


thanks, dude. i was there at the beginning dec92 until early jun 93. those were the wild west days in somalia. the rules of engagment were so loose that literally any somali that pointed a weapon in your general direction could be engaged with impunity - and they were until they got the lesson. how things ever reached the pitch they did in oct 93 is beyond me. we had the somalis utterly terrified of our very existence. and to be honest, there were times when i simply wanted to just kill them all.

war is the most powerful thing in the world. nothing can stand up to it and nothing can stop it until it has run its course, whatever that be. that is the reason that it isn't to be trifled with.

that's why i keep the homeric hymn to ares in my wallet and have for years. there is part of it in my sig. ares was more a god of conflict and could be propitiated in different ways, not just to go out and crack heads. but that is a subject for another thread.

[Legion2213]

Let's put this into perspective...this guy was a rogue element, probably snapped, 200 or 300 years ago, armies came to countries and generally destroyed anything in their path, the western powers for all their faults do try their best to limit civilian casualties, only 70 years ago, the axis armies rolled into cities and there were mass rapes, mass executions, horrendous torture etc, and that was doctrine.

Hell, look at what was going on in Darfur and the DR Congo with non western armies...mass rapes, genocide, mass displacement, ethnic cleansing, pre teen children forced into war fighting etc. Let's not get too guilt ridden here, if we had the mentallity of some nations around the world, there would be 10's of millions dead in Afghanistan.

We ain't perfect, but we still aren't as bad as most.

[SymphonicX]

Now I feel bad because I didn't say what I was truly intending to say at the start - that there's a real possibility that the soldier involved is just as much a victim in this situation as anyone else.

PTSD is life ruining - which I know is an obvious statement but for too long now we expect our soldiers to go out, fight intense wars, then return to civvy street as though nothing happened. It's a bizarre and unrealistic viewpoint. I know it's gotten better but I truly believe PTSD is vastly underestimated in the field of the military.

I remember watching a documentary about returning US soldiers from Iraq - and some of their stories were just shocking - one guy pulled a gun in a bar fight and pulled the trigger aiming at a dude's head - the gun didn't go off - but I certainly didn't listen to his story and feel he was even close to evil - the man was a victim of his experiences and he'd had no support upon returning from the battlefield - a pre-disposition to violence after those events isn't unrealistic.

I'm no expert but I'd say it probably manifests itself in different ways depending on the person - I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war...

[Tricky]

I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war...

He'd have to be, I dont know how strict the US military is on recruit selection but I was rejected by the British Army a couple of years ago over a period of anxiety I had in my early 20's. I know in myself that I'm absolutely fine now and could serve without issue, but due to that on my record there is a block on my application that so far I havent been able to overturn. They were even rejecting lads of 25 who had asthma in childhood so as far as the British army goes you have to be 100% fit mentally and physically with an unblemished record in either of those fields before they will even give you a chance at starting basic! Sure there will be people who get through who have mental problems that they've managed to keep under the radar prior to applying though...

[Legion2213]

He'd have to be, I dont know how strict the US military is on recruit selection but I was rejected by the British Army a couple of years ago over a period of anxiety I had in my early 20's. I know in myself that I'm absolutely fine now and could serve without issue, but due to that on my record there is a block on my application that so far I havent been able to overturn. They were even rejecting lads of 25 who had asthma in childhood so as far as the British army goes you have to be 100% fit mentally and physically with an unblemished record in either of those fields before they will even give you a chance at starting basic! Sure there will be people who get through who have mental problems that they've managed to keep under the radar prior to applying though...

Thing is mate, the first word of PTSD is "post"...as in after.

One of our own lads recently stabbed an Afghan child if you remember. I don't care how many tests are done prior to a combat deployment, nobody can guarantee that soldiers won't be affected by their experiences.

[Mike70]

Now I feel bad because I didn't say what I was truly intending to say at the start - that there's a real possibility that the soldier involved is just as much a victim in this situation as anyone else.

PTSD is life ruining - which I know is an obvious statement but for too long now we expect our soldiers to go out, fight intense wars, then return to civvy street as though nothing happened. It's a bizarre and unrealistic viewpoint. I know it's gotten better but I truly believe PTSD is vastly underestimated in the field of the military.

I remember watching a documentary about returning US soldiers from Iraq - and some of their stories were just shocking - one guy pulled a gun in a bar fight and pulled the trigger aiming at a dude's head - the gun didn't go off - but I certainly didn't listen to his story and feel he was even close to evil - the man was a victim of his experiences and he'd had no support upon returning from the battlefield - a pre-disposition to violence after those events isn't unrealistic.

I'm no expert but I'd say it probably manifests itself in different ways depending on the person - I've no experience of PTSD and I don't wish to have any, but I'd put real hypothetical money on the soldier in this news story bing fairly fully functioning before going to war...

well my dear internet friend, i do have experience with PTSD - big time and it is one of the most debilitating things that can happen to a person. it will literally change everything about you and make you act in ways that you would never dream.

that does not deflect personal responsibility though. everyone, except for the most serious mentally ill person, understands basic right from wrong. there is a big difference between killing someone who is trying to do the same to you and simply walking through a ville and slaughtering people.

@legion: i agree with you. this guy probably just frakking snapped or was a sick dude to begin with. everyone's threshold for stress is different. nor am i trying to deflect any responsibility from him.

i'm simply sharing a bit of my own experience AFTER being in a fucked, dangerous place that i didn't even want to step a toenail in in the first place. i don't mind sharing this info. i've known a few of you for over a decade and have had conversations about my struggles with PTSD with several members over the years i've been here. this place has helped me deal with a lot of shit, even if it seems that i go off crazy from time to time, this place has been an important part of my being a decently functioning adult. the more you face up to things you've been through and talk about them, dump negative feelings (sorry andy and neil:shifty:), and clear out the trash that fills your head after such an experience the better you feel.

I had a conversation with an old WWII vet at the clinic one day and i mentioned how i wished i had come in and admitted my problem a long time before. he looked at me and literally said, "son, you are the lucky one. i've lived with and carried on my heart the things that happened to my friends and i in the pacific for nearly 70 years. it ruined my life. you are the lucky one, you are young and life won't pass you by."

i'll never forget that even if i never run across that old dude again.

sorry, i've run on again but this is something that hits me really hard. that's why i said in my first post that i've had to numb myself to it- that wasn't really the truth. there's no way to be numb because 20 years ago, i could've easily been in that guy's shoes.

anyone who wants to, esp. vets can hit me up via PM anytime about shit like this. this is something i really don't mind talking about.

[Legion2213]

Mike, your posts are probably the most relevant and informative on this thread...I've never been near the armed forces or fought in a real theatre of war (like the majority of our members I suspect). You've provided better insight than any of us could.

[Mike70]

Mike, your posts are probably the most relevant and informative on this thread...I've never been near the armed forces or fought in a real theatre of war (like the majority of our members I suspect). You've provided better insight than any of us could.

thanks. i'm just throwing my 2 cents and providing a bit of perspective. i certainly hope that no one is thinking that i am defending this guy's behavior or trying to make excuses for him. i'm just trying to point that we pay for everything in life we do. sometimes right on the spot, sometimes years later. as i've gotten older it's gotten harder to simply tell myself "oh well, they would've killed me." when you kill someone, even in war, i have discovered that you pay for it for a very long time, in some cases, the rest of your life. i hope that won't be my experience.

the whole africa thing was why on july 29, 1994 i told the army (in the words of the song) "drop the leash, drop the leash - get out of my fuckin' face." damn shame because i really liked the army. i loved the feeling of belonging, being wanted, being valued, i loved the camraderie between my brothers (in arms) and i. i loved getting to do things the average person doesn't. that is one of the reason's i like going to the VA for healthcare needs. not only is it free, it's like belonging to a life long club where other vets are genuinely concerned about you and what is going on with you. the new VA is nothing like the old and if it stays this way, i'll never go anywhere else again.

[SymphonicX]

Let's put this into perspective...this guy was a rogue element, probably snapped, 200 or 300 years ago, armies came to countries and generally destroyed anything in their path, the western powers for all their faults do try their best to limit civilian casualties, only 70 years ago, the axis armies rolled into cities and there were mass rapes, mass executions, horrendous torture etc, and that was doctrine.

Hell, look at what was going on in Darfur and the DR Congo with non western armies...mass rapes, genocide, mass displacement, ethnic cleansing, pre teen children forced into war fighting etc. Let's not get too guilt ridden here, if we had the mentallity of some nations around the world, there would be 10's of millions dead in Afghanistan.

We ain't perfect, but we still aren't as bad as most.


Simply relating past events to your current misfortunes is no way of either justifying or rationalising them.

Medicine was a barbaric, unhygenic and in most cases downright dangerous practise 200-300 years ago.....

....but I certainly wouldn't see a loved one's death in such a trivialised perspective, if that person had been killed through systemic negligence.

And I'm sure your statement there would be literally no comfort to the families who have died - some might even call it disrespectful!

yeah things were bad many moons ago and they are still bad now in some areas - but the bottom line is you could justify a lot of atrocities with that perspective....

[shootemindehead]

In addition, it may be just spin that the "rouge element" acted entirely alone. I would be suspect. Military bodies ALWAYS try to limit misdoings by pointing the finger at lone scapegoats. In the context of the thread, there was great effort to pin My Li on Lt Calley alone, until it came out that he did not act alone.

Afghan elders have rejected the US Army's simplistic explanation and have said that it would have been utterly impossible for only one man to have killed these people, based on reports from the familes concerned.

[Mike70]

In addition, it may be just spin that the "rouge element" acted entirely alone. I would be suspect. Military bodies ALWAYS try to limit misdoings by pointing the finger at lone scapegoats. In the context of the thread, there was great effort to pin My Li on Lt Calley alone, until it came out that he did not act alone.

Afghan elders have rejected the US Army's simplistic explanation and have said that it would have been utterly impossible for only one man to have killed these people, based on reports from the familes concerned.

there may be some truth in this. from my own personal experience in the army the one thing you don't do is break faith with your brothers. i would literally have died before i testified against someone that i served with, regardless of what they had done. i know that sounds horrible but there are bonds that are much, much stronger than the truth and, to some people, more important than it. the bonds you form with people in the military are deep and i mean deep on the level of blood relations. those kinds of ties are hard to break (impossible in some cases). this, again, is no excuse for what happened.

i am merely, once again, adding my own perspective as someone who spent 6 months dealing with this kind of shit. i know that our unit had to send a couple of people home because they just couldn't handle what was going on and there were fears that they would pull some shit exactly like this dude did. my room mate was one of the people that was sent home because his behavior was becoming dangerous, both to somali civilians and to us.

[shootemindehead]

Mike, your words coincide with quite a few others that I've heard. I knew you'd served, but haven't asked where before, but in this thread I've learned that you were part of America's action in Somalia in the early 90's. I'm certainly not schooled in that period, although I am aware of Ops "Provide relief", "Restore hope" and obviously the Mogadishu thing.

However, stories from servicemen are conspicuous in their similarity. That is, when the bullets start to fly, you learn to rely on the "guy next to you" and he relies on you and any kind of bullshit beliefs you may have/had disappears very quickly and all that matters is getting through ti the next day.

Such is the basis of the bond of which you refer to (I think) and I would venture that such bonds are extremely difficult to break, no matter what the circumstances are.

I agree with you, it's no excuse for any excess. But "reasons" are different to "excuses".

I've never served myself, nor would I (I have to say), however, my family has a history of involvement in World War I and World II. In fact, I've just been looking through my relatives service record from the first World War tonight. But, in my time, I've had the opportunity to discuss "the war" (i.e. WWII) with a number of servicemen and your words equal theirs with incredible accuracy.

[Mike70]

now i am utterly pissed off about this. the dude responsible, Robert Bales, was from Cincinnati. my home town. thanks asshole.

he was from Norwood, a place which is filled to the brim with white trash and morons. sorry but having grown up on the affluent eastern side of cincinnati, west siders and folks from Norwood are considered little better than orcs by people on my side of town and most times they act like it. the only places lower in the pecking order around here are the Over-the-Rhine and Price Hill neighborhoods. what a typical piece of white trash shit.

sorry, but knowing this guy is from here has greatly irritated me.

people here are going batshit about this. the police are having to protect his mother and some other members of his family and they have implored the media not to publish the names or addresses of any of his relatives.

[Tricky]

From what I'm reading, the actions of this one guy have pretty much undone every sacrifice and piece of good work that has been done by the international forces in Afghanistan over the past 10 years! I know there have been a lot of incidents over there previous to this which have pissed off the Afghans, such as badly placed CAS strikes, drone strikes, troops killing cattle (as seen in Restrepo), the book burning thing and probably far too many others to count, but this one incident caused by this one guy seems to have done more damage than anything else. I would say its time to leave, the only reason we're still there is down to politicians not wanting to lose face by admitting that staying there after driving the Taliban & Al Qeada out in the initial assault was a bad idea...

[Sammich]

The Afghan parliamentary investigation is reporting that this was not the work of a single soldier. This coincides with early witness statements that there were multiple soldiers (possibly inebriated) carrying out the attack.

Up to 20 US troops executed Panjwai massacre: probe (http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/03/15/20-us-troops-executed-panjwai-massacre-probe)

The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.

Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.

“We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders,” he said.

He added the attack lasted one hour involving two groups of American soldiers in the middle of the night on Sunday.

“The villages are one and a half kilometre from the American military base. We are convinced that one soldier cannot kill so many people in two villages within one hour at the same time, and the 16 civilians, most of them children and women, have been killed by the two groups.”

[Christopher Jon]

It'll be amusing when we pull out and the country falls to shit again.

Shit happens but it's not as bad as the shit to come.

[shootemindehead]

Karzai also appears sceptical about the "official" US version.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/16/karzai-doubts-us-village-massacre

Interestingly, he mentions:

"This has been going on for too long. You have heard me before, therefore, it is by all means the end of the rope here," he said of the killings, which he described as the latest of "hundreds" of such incidents nationwide."

[Christopher Jon]

"This has been going on for too long. You have heard me before, therefore, it is by all means the end of the rope here," he said of the killings, which he described as the latest of "hundreds" of such incidents nationwide."
It's war. It's ugly. End of story.

[SymphonicX]

It's war. It's ugly. End of story.

That's how you rationalise the murder of 9 children shot at point blank then burned in a pile of bodies?

How's this for a rationale:

9/11 - it's war...it's ugly, end of story.
The holocaust: it's war. it's ugly, end of story.
Vietnam: fuck your PTSD, it's war, it's ugly. End of story.


No.

-- -------- Post added at 12:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------


It'll be amusing when we pull out and the country falls to shit again.

Shit happens but it's not as bad as the shit to come.

it'll be amusing?
Wow.

[Mike70]

That's how you rationalise the murder of 9 children shot at point blank then burned in a pile of bodies?

How's this for a rationale:

9/11 - it's war...it's ugly, end of story.
The holocaust: it's war. it's ugly, end of story.
Vietnam: fuck your PTSD, it's war, it's ugly. End of story.


it isn't just vietnam vets. i've already shared my struggles with PTSD and how hard it is to deal with. i'm also active in the VA support system for vets that are seeking help and treatment. when i deal with/meet with these kids coming back from afghanistan, it literally breaks what little heart i have left. these two wars have cost america so much that most people not involved in the VA or its attempts to help people have NO conception of just how much this has cost us in lives lost, limbs lost, and lives ruined because of mental health issues. i don't even frikking care about all the money that's been spent. money is nothing next to life. it's nothing next to having all four limbs. it's nothing compared to your mental health.

dismissing it as just "war" borders on the asinine. war is ugly and brutal and yes, civilians do get killed. that is the horrible nature of the beast. but what happened in this situation has nothing to do with war. it has everything to do with someone who reached his breaking point and for some reason no one around him saw the signs coming (and yes, there would've been signs).

the more i work with vets, the more disgusted i get with the military. ALL of them. not just the US. all it does is ruin lives and destroy people's well being. i grow increasing tired of whores in expensive suits sending kids off to do their damn dirty work. if congress wants this shit to continue, i would suggest that they be forced to subject their own children to it - all of them. but no - most of them go off to places like harvard or yale or some other hoity toity college where they are taught they are better than "regular people" and thus the cycle continues.

sorry, i've run on yet again but this has really, really bothered me because in the last year or so i've become very involved in trying to help people that went through what i did and the asshats in washington are not making it easy.

[SymphonicX]

it isn't just vietnam vets. i've already shared my struggles with PTSD and how hard it is to deal with. i'm also active in the VA support system for vets that are seeking help and treatment. when i deal with/meet with these kids coming back from afghanistan, it literally breaks what little heart i have left. these two wars have cost america so much that most people not involved in the VA or its attempts to help people have NO conception of just how much this has cost us in lives lost, limbs lost, and lives ruined because of mental health issues. i don't even frikking care about all the money that's been spent. money is nothing next to life. it's nothing next to having all four limbs. it's nothing compared to your mental health.

dismissing it as just "war" borders on the asinine. war is ugly and brutal and yes, civilians do get killed. that is the horrible nature of the beast. but what happened in this situation has nothing to do with war. it has everything to do with someone who reached his breaking point and for some reason no one around him saw the signs coming (and yes, there would've been signs).

the more i work with vets, the more disgusted i get with the military. ALL of them. not just the US. all it does is ruin lives and destroy people's well being. i grow increasing tired of whores in expensive suits sending kids off to do their damn dirty work. if congress wants this shit to continue, i would suggest that they be forced to subject their own children to it - all of them. but no - most of them go off to places like harvard or yale or some other hoity toity college where they are taught they are better than "regular people" and thus the cycle continues.

sorry, i've run on yet again but this has really, really bothered me because in the last year or so i've become very involved in trying to help people that went through what i did and the asshats in washington are not making it easy.

I totally agree, 100% - I was just generalising with the Vietnam thing because PTSD became a pretty prevalent issue off the back of that war - but yeah, I absolutely sympathise with all vets regardless - however whathisname's post riled me a bit with him summing up the entire thing (including by assosciation your experiences which you've been kind enough to share) as "oh it's ugly"...

Terrible.

[Christopher Jon]

I totally agree, 100% - I was just generalising with the Vietnam thing because PTSD became a pretty prevalent issue off the back of that war - but yeah, I absolutely sympathise with all vets regardless - however whathisname's post riled me a bit with him summing up the entire thing (including by assosciation your experiences which you've been kind enough to share) as "oh it's ugly"...

Terrible.

Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You.

And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die.

[Sammich]

Bales is nothing but a criminal psychopath and I really wish people would quit trying to make up excuses for what he did, or does UCMJ article 118 no longer exist?. The guy not only took part in mass murder and reported rape of 2 of the women killed, but also defrauded an old couple out of $850,000 before running to the military to evade accountability.

Afghan Murder Suspect Bales 'Took My Life Savings,' Says Retiree (http://news.yahoo.com/afghan-murder-suspect-bales-took-life-savings-says-223934030--abc-news.html)

Robert Bales, the staff sergeant accused of massacring Afghan civilians, enlisted in the U.S. Army at the same time he was trying to avoid answering allegations he defrauded an elderly Ohio couple of their life savings in a stock fraud, according to federal documents reviewed by ABC News.

"He robbed me of my life savings," Gary Liebschner of Carroll, Ohio told ABC News.

Financial regulators found that Bales "engaged in fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, churning, unauthorized trading and unsuitable investments," according to a report on Bales filed in 2003. Bales and his associates were ordered to pay Liebschner $1,274,000 in compensatory and punitive damages but have yet to do so, according to Liebschner.

"We didn't know where he was," Liebschner told ABC News. "We heard the Bahamas, and all kinds of places."

Liebschner says he recognized Bales after news reports named him as the American soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan villagers in a shooting rampage.

[SymphonicX]

Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You.

And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die.

I'm really not in the right frame of mind to reply to this inanity.
Forget it.

[AcesandEights]

Well, I've actually been there, Afghanistgan. Mike has earned the right to speak his mind, most of you don't know and never will know. Just say Thank You.

And yes, war is dirty, ugly and bloody. It's not a video game. People die.

I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand.

There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--essentially execute--helpless civilians, which is the accusations we're discussing. No amount of throwing your service in other peoples faces is really going to convince a large number of people otherwise, it just cheapens the whole discussion.

[SymphonicX]

I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand.

There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--.

*yeahthat*

[Mike70]

this thread has begun to go down the road to nonsenseville. what was a serious discussion of what war does to people has been cheapened by reductionist thinking and the usual, nutty american fascination with conspiracies. i've failed to see any excuses offered, only attempts at understanding.

oh, i also didn't realize that some of you were MDs practicing in the areas of psychiatry and neuroscience and therefore capable of making complex mental diagnoses from newspaper articles. congrats. that would make you the greatest doctors ever - if such a thing were possible.

[Sammich]

It doesn't take a MD to know that an individual isn't normal if they deliberately defraud an elderly couple out of their life savings, intentionally evade accountability then participate in mass murder, rape and arson. Maybe those acts are acceptible behavior in your country, but they sure aren't in the U.S.

-- -------- Post added at 08:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:11 PM ----------


I can't see how your above post addresses the matter at hand.

There's a world of difference between "people die in a war zone sometimes" and it being okay to murder--essentially execute--helpless civilians, which is the accusations we're discussing. No amount of throwing your service in other peoples faces is really going to convince a large number of people otherwise, it just cheapens the whole discussion.

http://rantchick.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/respect-my-authority.jpg

[Mike70]

It doesn't take a MD to know that an individual isn't normal if they deliberately defraud an elderly couple out of their life savings, intentionally evade accountability then participate in mass murder, rape and arson. Maybe those acts are acceptible behavior in your country, but they sure aren't in the U.S.[COLOR="Silver"]



*sigh*
actually, you do have to be an MD to make any kind of medical diagnoses.

i hope the comment about "your country" isn't aimed at me because if you haven't figured out that i am an American, then you clearly have not been paying attention to this thread.

[Tricky]

Well, the repercussions of these incidents have clearly not sunk in, heres another one just reported on Sky News

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16211718

[Danny]

Well, the repercussions of these incidents have clearly not sunk in, heres another one just reported on Sky News

http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16211718

things like the reminds you, the world isnt getting worse, the worst of it is just more publicised yknow?

[Tricky]

things like the reminds you, the world isnt getting worse, the worst of it is just more publicised yknow?

Yeah true, I'm sure this stuff has been going on in war zones since the camera was invented, but prior to the turn of the century it didnt get plastered all over the internet and then the tabloids like it does now, at least not until long after the event anyway. The worst part of this ghoulish behaviour is that these morons put themselves and the rest of ISAF at serious risk of reprisals every time this happens.