Cameron bashing

[shootemindehead]

Cameron's film (Titanic) is bloody awful, until the ship hits the iceberg. He's not that hot a director IMHO anyway.

The "love story" is insipid and wholly redundant.

There are some terrifying parts in the last hour though.

[Neil]

Cameron's film is bloody awful, until the ship hits the iceberg. He's not that hot a director IMHO anyway.

The "love story" is insipid and wholly redundant.

There are some terrifying parts in the last hour though.

Here we go again :(

Yes, we know some people think Titanic is:-
- The worse film ever.
- Even worse than the worse film ever.
- The opening titles are 3 seconds too long making the whole film shite.
- etc etc...

Can I point out other people:-
- Quite enjoy the flick
- Can overlook issues they have with it, even if they don't overally enjoy the film, to realise this doesn't then make it "bloody aweful".

"The "love story" is insipid and wholly redundant." - In your opinion. Without it, it's just the same as the other half a dozen factually based dramas we already have/had, making it wholly redundant surely? I quite enjoy the fact/fiction mix of it to bring a different take on the disaster. If you don't enjoy this aspect of it, watch "A Night To Remember" or FFWD to the last hour :)


The fact you come to the conclusion Cameron's "not that hot a director" seems bizarre IMHO. He's written and directed some truly astoundingly good films which have at times defined cinema. Give the man some credit, even if you don't enjoy some or even all of his films.


Now, let's move on from the unnecessary Cameron bashing?

-- -------- Post added at 01:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------


I think the story of the Titanic is more than strong enough to support it's self without the need for a love story, which is why I think A Night To Remember is still the best as it encompasses many stories.

Absolutely, but how many docu-dramas have we had of Titanic? Over half a dozen? This was Cameron's curve ball take on the disaster... Romeo and Juliet on the Titanic. Some people will enjoy this approach, and it's clear other will not. So is the way of the world...

Titanic is a neat retelling of a well known story, to bring something fresh to an already well know event. A Night to Remember is probably the best telling of the actual story. I don't see them competing really...

[SymphonicX]

It was without doubt a genre-defining movie.
Without Titanic, we'd not have enjoyed such amazing gems as "Pearl Harbour" and "Armageddon".
Ahh, the old disaster movie offset by a love story...

I hhhhhhhhhhhhate this film. As you say though, the last hour is great.

[Neil]

It was without doubt a genre-defining movie.
Without Titanic, we'd not have enjoyed such amazing gems as "Pearl Harbour" and "Armageddon".
Ahh, the old disaster movie offset by a love story...

I hhhhhhhhhhhhate this film. As you say though, the last hour is great.
Huh! Your quibble with Titanic is not even the film itself, and any rational thoughts about it, but films that came out after it?

I really don't get why some people feel the need to be so binary about "Titanic". If you don't enjoy the drama/love story aspect of the film, fine. It's not your cup-of-tea. But this - with a rational thought process at least - does not reduce the film to "bloody aweful"!? There's a difference between someone not enjoying something and coming to the conclusing it's rubbish because of that. People seem to be very unfair at times about this, especially when the thing in question is successful!

[Knighty]

"Absolutely, but how many docu-dramas have we had of Titanic? Over half a dozen? This was Cameron's curve ball take on the disaster... Romeo and Juliet on the Titanic. Some people will enjoy this approach, and it's clear other will not. So is the way of the world...

Titanic is a neat retelling of a well known story, to bring something fresh to an already well know event. A Night to Remember is probably the best telling of the actual story. I don't see them competing really..."

Seeing as he is such an historic buff especially on this subject, I do.
I wouldn't mind the story as much if he hadn't decided it should take precedence over everything else and if it wasn't quite so cheesy and watching it back it really really is.
Plus it doesn't have Tim Curry doing a silly accent


The 3D conversion is brilliant though, you can tell time has gone into it as opposed to Clash Of The Titans

[AcesandEights]

I really don't get why some people feel the need to be so binary about "Titanic".

We had some well rounded views on it the Manly Men Sound Off (http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?16956-Titanic-The-Manly-Men-Sound-Off&highlight=) poll.

[bassman]

I wouldn't mind the story as much if he hadn't decided it should take precedence over everything else and if it wasn't quite so cheesy and watching it back it really really is.


Cheesy is of course a valid argument(love is cheesy too though, ain't it? :p), but I never understand people that say the movie mainly focused on Jack and Rose's story. I've always felt that Cameron did a brilliant job of creating two fictional characters and weaving their story into the real life events and people involved. If you think about it....Ismay, Andrews, Brown, Captain Smith, etc are all very important people within the film's plot. Sure, Jack and Rose are the center of it all but to create a captivating three hour story, you're going to need more than the people that were on the real ship. Otherwise it's basically the world's most expensive documentary.

As mentioned before in this thread, people are too hard on Cameron's film simply because of the love story. It has it's flaws, but to call the entire film "bloody awful" in every way is just silly, imo....

[shootemindehead]

Here we go again :(

Again? eh?


Yes, we know some people think Titanic is:-
- The worse film ever.
- Even worse than the worse film ever.
- The opening titles are 3 seconds too long making the whole film shite.
- etc etc...

Can I point out other people:-
- Quite enjoy the flick
- Can overlook issues they have with it, even if they don't overally enjoy the film, to realise this doesn't then make it "bloody aweful".

"The "love story" is insipid and wholly redundant." - In your opinion. Without it, it's just the same as the other half a dozen factually based dramas we already have/had, making it wholly redundant surely? I quite enjoy the fact/fiction mix of it to bring a different take on the disaster. If you don't enjoy this aspect of it, watch "A Night To Remember" or FFWD to the last hour :)

I can only speak fom my opinion. Otherwise, it wouldn't be my opinion.

In any case, if it's on, I do FF through the insipid lurve story, to where the iceberg brings some much needed urgency to the film.


The fact you come to the conclusion Cameron's "not that hot a director" seems bizarre IMHO. He's written and directed some truly astoundingly good films which have at times defined cinema. Give the man some credit, even if you don't enjoy some or even all of his films.

Now, let's move on from the unnecessary Cameron bashing?

I just don't think he's that great a director. I don't like 'The Abyss', 'Terminator 2', 'Rambo', 'Titanic', 'True Lies', 'Avatar' or emmmm 'Piranha II'.

-- -------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 PM ----------


Cheesy is of course a valid argument(love is cheesy too though, ain't it? :p), but I never understand people that say the movie mainly focused on Jack and Rose's story. I've always felt that Cameron did a brilliant job of creating two fictional characters and weaving their story into the real life events and people involved. If you think about it....Ismay, Andrews, Brown, Captain Smith, etc are all very important people within the film's plot. Sure, Jack and Rose are the center of it all but to create a captivating three hour story, you're going to need more than the people that were on the real ship. Otherwise it's basically the world's most expensive documentary.

As mentioned before in this thread, people are too hard on Cameron's film simply because of the love story. It has it's flaws, but to call the entire film "bloody awful" in every way is just silly, imo....

Why? I think it is generally bloody awful, handicapped by a rather routine and by-the-numbers first half. It's marred horribly by a stupid and childish love story, that's isn't convincing for a single second. But, as I said it does redeem itself somewhat in the second half, when the film actually gets going.

IMO, it would have benefitted greatly by the elimination of the love story centre.

The only reason a lot of people are willing to look past it's very serious flaws, is because they're wowed by the great effects. Imagine, though, if the effects weren't all that great?

[SymphonicX]

Huh! Your quibble with Titanic is not even the film itself, and any rational thoughts about it, but films that came out after it?

I really don't get why some people feel the need to be so binary about "Titanic". If you don't enjoy the drama/love story aspect of the film, fine. It's not your cup-of-tea. But this - with a rational thought process at least - does not reduce the film to "bloody aweful"!? There's a difference between someone not enjoying something and coming to the conclusing it's rubbish because of that. People seem to be very unfair at times about this, especially when the thing in question is successful!

Not really, my quibble is that it's an annoyingly tedious romp in the ocean, but I wasn't really talking about how I saw the film....but it's still worth noting that it was genre defining, in support of your pro-titanic stance...it's just a fact that it never actually spawned a movie better than it - but it was indeed a genre defining movie.

Just like Pulp Fiction spawned The Usual Suspects, and The Matrix spawned Equilibrium....sometimes its a good thing, sometimes not...

But what Titanic did do was create a market for these sort of movies...so if you don't like the film on it's standalone merit, you could argue that looking at the broader picture, Titanic also brought about another world of pain in Pearl Harbour.

personally I'm completely indifferent to the movie - can't deny Cameron's talent though. Apparently he's a monster to work with. I have that on good authority. On the flip side, he's the most dedicated film maker in the industry. He even came here a few years back to make sure we'd got the 3D version of Avatar sorted before transmission - oversaw it personally. So kudos to him.

[AcesandEights]

The only reason a lot of people are willing to look past it's very serious flaws, is because they're wowed by the great effects. Imagine, though, if the effects weren't all that great?

I like Titanic, but agree this is sort of a valid argument. After all, if the iceberg strike took place off camera and a lot of the exterior shots of the ship were handled in an old school manner, the film wouldn't have been such a success. That said, you could pick apart so many films in a similar fashion just by removing one of the ingredients that were a part of their success.

[Knighty]

Cheesy is of course a valid argument(love is cheesy too though, ain't it? :p), but I never understand people that say the movie mainly focused on Jack and Rose's story. I've always felt that Cameron did a brilliant job of creating two fictional characters and weaving their story into the real life events and people involved. If you think about it....Ismay, Andrews, Brown, Captain Smith, etc are all very important people within the film's plot. Sure, Jack and Rose are the center of it all but to create a captivating three hour story, you're going to need more than the people that were on the real ship. Otherwise it's basically the world's most expensive documentary.

I would argue that it could still stand on its own and even has in built relationships already on the ship that were not shown in any film as far as I know. Such as kidnapping, affairs, heroics, panic and desperate people. It's a nice little microcosm ( think that's the word) of society and the world at that time.
I do still have an issue with how some people are portrayed, I know The family of the officer shown shooting someone and committing suicide sued the production.
In regards to the love story I have no problem with them in a film I just thought it wasn't particularly done well in this, no way is the film bloody awful though.

And who the hell doesn't like Terminator 2 & True Lies?!!

[shootemindehead]

Me.

:p

[AcesandEights]

And who the hell doesn't like Terminator 2 & True Lies?!!


Me.

:p
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/BrOnXbOmBr21/terminator2thumbsup.jpg

Nah, I thought T2 was pretty good. Very cheesy and overdone, but it was probably one of the better films of that generation for its genre (big pecs, big guns, cheesy action-star driven shootem' up w/ a faux thinking man's angle...that's a genre, right?).

True Lies? Meh...

[Knighty]

Can we all agree Avatar is a pile of shite though?

[shootemindehead]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/BrOnXbOmBr21/terminator2thumbsup.jpg

:barf: Ugh...one of the reasons I HATE T2.

Thumbs up!!!

Feck off Arnie...

Loved the first one though,

[SymphonicX]

I thought T2 wasn't bad. There were just a couple of things that annoyed me. Edward Furlong's constant squeak/scream thing when he tries to shout. Check it out, you cannot unsee this fact. Especially evident everytime he shouts "mom". Various inconsistencies with the movie's timeline...never quite understood how JC aged 12 years between 1984 and 1992. Robert Patrick was phenomenal though - but really this movie doesn't have half the atmosphere of the original.

Notice how in T2, all the action happens from right to left - but when they are in the future, the action happens from left to right? Very clever and very subtle. To say Jim doesn't think about his films is lying.

True Lies was a great comedy action, not bad at all. Very tongue in cheek and a nice nod to Goldfinger at the beginning. Wasn't remotely bad really, just not blow your socks off brilliant.

Avatar wasn't bad. I enjoyed it. The story isn't winning points for originality but the 3D innovation and the world he created was spectacular. The visuals were stunning. the bad guy was SUCH a cliche though and I thought the anti-mililtary theme was perhaps a bit too obvious.....and big fighting machines with knives...stupid.

[Neil]

Off topic posts from the Titanic Anniversary thread

[Neil]

Have to say, T2 is one of the scifi greats IMHO. Basically achieving everything it sets out to perfectly. Of course there's a few flaws, but they're drowned under the tidal wave of what's f***ing awesome about this flick.

Cameron's script is tight and intelligent and the resulting film is a rollercoaster of epic scenes!


There's so many intelligent bits to the script, and they're all handled so beautifully it's easy to ignore/overlook them. Like the super subtle moment like the T-1000 coming through the bars in the aylum, and then... clunk the gun he's holding is at the wrong angle to fit through the bars. It's a beautiful little moment, but Cameron spotted the opportunity to show these machine could make mistakes!

[Andy]

I saw the title and thought this was a political thread, rolled up my sleeves and came in charging in..

:lol:

[MinionZombie]

I'd imagine he took out those scenes because they weigh down the narrative, despite their historical Titanic buff interest. The love story might be twee and plays to the cheap seats in grand gestures, but Cameron has always had a sense of a grand, sweeping love story (take out the machines and The Terminator is a time-travelling love story, with big swelling emotions kicking right off in that motel room scene). The Abyss has a lot of that stuff in it too, but interesting the love story angle was deleted from T2 (Kyle Reese returned as a vision to Sarah Connor in a dream when she was still locked up in Pescodero).

Despite the aforementioned twee-ness of the love story, it appeals to who it appeals to, and the others who aren't into it can bask in the historical accuracy and period detail, and then have a right old gawp-fest once the ice berg strikes. The sense of grandeur is why Titanic is sat on my DVD shelves (in a 4-disc deluxe edition, no less). I suppose the love story is to create a fake couple to try and create a central emotional core for the audience, two characters to follow throughout the entire movie, and exhibit the extremes of the social scale at the time ... it makes an awful lot of sense to do it, but if only it was handled a little more subtly ... but again, Cameron has always been a man for grand, sweeping gestures when it comes to the heart of his films.

[Neil]

I'd imagine he took out those scenes because they weigh down the narrative, despite their historical Titanic buff interest. The love story might be twee and plays to the cheap seats in grand gestures, but Cameron has always had a sense of a grand, sweeping love story (take out the machines and The Terminator is a time-travelling love story, with big swelling emotions kicking right off in that motel room scene). The Abyss has a lot of that stuff in it too, but interesting the love story angle was deleted from T2 (Kyle Reese returned as a vision to Sarah Connor in a dream when she was still locked up in Pescodero).

Despite the aforementioned twee-ness of the love story, it appeals to who it appeals to, and the others who aren't into it can bask in the historical accuracy and period detail, and then have a right old gawp-fest once the ice berg strikes. The sense of grandeur is why Titanic is sat on my DVD shelves (in a 4-disc deluxe edition, no less). I suppose the love story is to create a fake couple to try and create a central emotional core for the audience, two characters to follow throughout the entire movie, and exhibit the extremes of the social scale at the time ... it makes an awful lot of sense to do it, but if only it was handled a little more subtly ... but again, Cameron has always been a man for grand, sweeping gestures when it comes to the heart of his films.

The attention to detail is astounding - I love the way even their love scene was in a car that really is down there on in Titanic!

[Knighty]

The attention to detail is astounding - I love the way even their love scene was in a car that really is down there on in Titanic!

The details are amazing but it's also some of the lack of detail that irritates :p damn you Cameron!

[MinionZombie]

Ah I've just gone and posted in the other thread about the film ... well, considering the forum is dragging it's arse for me (and has been for three days now :rant:), I'll let someone else ship the comments over, but as for the film in general, let's see...

First saw the movie on rental VHS in 1997/1998 (whenever it was that it hit rental shelves). Liked the grand scale, but was put off by all the 'Titanic fever' that struck in a way that smacked a bit of teenage girls in their fluffy pink bedrooms swooning over posters of Take That ... so I didn't watch it again for years after. Then I distinctly remember in one of the first seminars at uni on the Key Issues in Film Studies course in year one, the topic was moved to Titanic and the lecturer asked everyone their thoughts - and they were overwhelmingly snobbish responses (mine included). I hadn't actually seen the movie in years, and was pissing and moaning about it because of my perception of it based on one viewing years ago and then years and years of my grumbling to the response to the movie.

Anyway, a couple of years ago I got it on deluxe edition DVD (4 discs, two of which are just for the film, replete with a whole host of fascinating documentaries about the film and the ill-fated ship). I've yet to re-watch the film proper (I watched it with JC's commentary, which proved fascinating, with added facts, and even a few things he wanted to do differently - e.g. apologising for any upset caused by how he staged the scene where money is put into the pocket of a crew member organising one of the boats). I do want to watch the movie again - particularly with the 100th anniversary being this year - and I'm much more forgiving in my opinions these days mostly. I will say, and just have said elsewhere, that there are problems with the film ... the central love story, while I totally understand and indeed support it's use, is handled with far too broad brush strokes. It's too on-the-nose many times, and the pantomime villain that thingymy plays starts taking the piss at times (JC wisely removed a whole chunk of the chase sequence in the waterlogged dining rooms after negative audience response to ridiculous personal revenge drama as a ruddy ship is sinking), but the sense of grandeur and historical interest - as well as, yes, spectacle (as occasionally uncomfortable a word that is to ascribe to a blockbuster version of a real tragedy) makes this a worthwhile film. Cameron has never been all that subtle when it comes to human emotion (often going for grand sweeping gestures), but he has definitely got more blunt in recent films ... well, Titanic and Avatar anyway.

I see Armageddon and Pearl Harbour were mentioned above, but I'd say the key influences on those movies in general were the wave of 1990s disaster flicks during that particular revival of a sub-genre, and Saving Private Ryan respectively. Perhaps there's an element of Titanic-influence in the soppy love story parts, sure, but I think the above sentiment for the movies in general. I do enjoy Armageddon as a guilty mainstream dumb-but-fun time, but Pearl Harbour is dreck ... speaking of which, Mark Kermode went off on a pretty good rant about PH in his latest book. :D

So yeah, my hatred of Titanic back in 2002 was much more based on perception ... my perception of the 'Titanic effect', and importantly my perception of what others would think about me if I actually defended the movie or said I liked it. At the time I couldn't have done either of the latter things (having not seen it in years), but there was still that over-riding sense of "the popular consensus is" ... you know, that "it's popular to piss on this movie, so I'll join in" ... it's not perfect by any means at all, and the whole Titanic fever that happened is a bit silly to look back on (but it's also kind of sweet in an innocent kind of way too), but there are many positives. Few movies can offer such a sense of grandeur, historical interest, and period detail, and JC's passion for the doomed ship, it's stories, and underwater exploration shine through ... not to mention his rather demanding reputation, that seems to have softened since (as addressed directly in the extra features for Avatar ... another impressively grand epic with a too-blunt love story, and some scene-chewingly-obvious lines of dialogue, which I enjoy nonetheless).

Right ... I'm off to re-watch The French Connection for the first time in a decade (only seen it once). It was on Sky Movies last night and I fancied giving it another spin. :)

[Danny]

:barf: Ugh...one of the reasons I HATE T2.

Thumbs up!!!

Feck off Arnie...

Loved the first one though,


I dont hate it, but as ive gotten older i can see how a lot of it is just masturbatory fanservice riffing of the last one rather than being a proper sequel- and when you think about it the villain was pretty wasted. I mean a liquid metal terminator and you never have it going through pipes or through cracks in floorboards or something?
hes meant to be liquid metal but in the film is used more like liquid putty. great movie monster, but wasted potential looking back.

[Knighty]

Been watching the deleted scenes on YouTube recently and funnily enough I love that deleted fight scene, would have been very odd when in place in the film but simply watching the dining room slowly fill up and the background ship noises make it a very effective scene.

[Zombo]

He's an incredibly over-rated director in my opinion. 'Titanic' bored the beejeezuz out of me.

[Philly_SWAT]

I saw the title of this thread, and immediately thought that is was a thread that was gong to complain about "Cameron" Romero and Staunton Hill :)

[Mike70]

um, this dude gets a pass, totally. this is the guy who made "the terminator", "aliens", and "the abyss." why in the fook are we even...nevermind; i'm simply not arguing about this. if those 3 films were all he had ever done, he'd still be one of the all-time sci-fi greats.

[Christopher Jon]

This thread was a fail from the very first post.

[Neil]

um, this dude gets a pass, totally. this is the guy who made "the terminator", "aliens", and "the abyss." why in the fook are we even...nevermind; i'm simply not arguing about this. if those 3 films were all he had ever done, he'd still be one of the all-time sci-fi greats.

^^ This!

And then keep in mind he not only directed, but wrote them too!

[shootemindehead]

I dont hate it, but as ive gotten older i can see how a lot of it is just masturbatory fanservice riffing of the last one rather than being a proper sequel- and when you think about it the villain was pretty wasted. I mean a liquid metal terminator and you never have it going through pipes or through cracks in floorboards or something?
hes meant to be liquid metal but in the film is used more like liquid putty. great movie monster, but wasted potential looking back.

I thought the idea of a liquid robot was just bloody stupid. Used just to showcase the "advances" in CGI from 'The Abyss'.

At least Arnie's endo-skeleton machine made some sense.

The acting is pretty weak too. I just want kill Furlong (I wouldn't care about the future of mankind), Linda Hamilton just hasn't got the chops to carry off her duties convincingly and Arnie duffs it up too, by trying to be the good guy, super-hero.

I actually just can't watch it anymore.

-- -------- Post added at 02:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------


take out the machines and The Terminator is a time-travelling love story

Well, not really. Reece goes back in time to pork his faction leaders mum, so he can exist.

It's hardly a love story.

Yet, it's a damn sight more convincing than the "love story" presented in 'Titanic'.

:D

[Mike70]

^^ This!

And then keep in mind he not only directed, but wrote them too!

funny thing i learned last night when i was looking over Cameron's resume: i had no idea that he had been involved in the writing of Rambo II. you truly do learn something new everyday.

i'm not trying to pull the age trip here but i'm old enough (as many of you are) to have seen "the abyss" when it was originally released on the big screen. I think a lot of people forget just how ahead of its time it was and how mind blowing some of the stuff in that movie was in 1989.

[shootemindehead]

I'm near enough to your age and remember it too. My friends were all over it, but I recall being quite nonplussed about it. The effects were the talking point, but they just didn't grab me too solidly. I'll have to give the special edition a spin though. It might change my opinion on it.

Thought Michael Biehn was going to go on and have a brilliant career though.

Never really happened for him, even though he's been in tons of stuff.

[Neil]

funny thing i learned last night when i was looking over Cameron's resume: i had no idea that he had been involved in the writing of Rambo II. you truly do learn something new everyday.

i'm not trying to pull the age trip here but i'm old enough (as many of you are) to have seen "the abyss" when it was originally released on the big screen. I think a lot of people forget just how ahead of its time it was and how mind blowing some of the stuff in that movie was in 1989.

Shame the cuts for the cinema release ruined the overall strory. The directors version is the one to see!

-- -------- Post added at 10:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 AM ----------


Linda Hamilton just hasn't got the chops to carry off her duties convincingly and Arnie duffs it up too, by trying to be the good guy, super-hero.

Didn't you see her exercising in her room? And the scenes where she escaped and was attacking the guards were brutal!

[MinionZombie]

Been watching the deleted scenes on YouTube recently and funnily enough I love that deleted fight scene, would have been very odd when in place in the film but simply watching the dining room slowly fill up and the background ship noises make it a very effective scene.

I'd agree, in isolation that scene is a good watch, but yeah ... in the movie it would have been daft. That's often the case with deleted scenes, you find nice little parts to the scenes, but not the entire scene itself, and certainly not within the context of the entire movie. Although many times on DVDs/BRs, you find the deleted scenes to be entirely perfunctory anyway, but now and then you find some genuinely spiffing deleted scenes - and even the odd one you wish had stayed in the flick.


I'll have to give the special edition a spin though. It might change my opinion on it.

Thought Michael Biehn was going to go on and have a brilliant career though.

Never really happened for him, even though he's been in tons of stuff.

I'm with Neil - the director's cut is the way to see The Abyss. I saw it was on Film4 t'other night and it was the theatrical version, so I noticed a great big chunk missing at the end where Ed Harris converses with the aliens who bring up images of nuclear war etc, in a way that's like 'why should mankind be allowed to continue to exist', IIRC ... whereas in the theatrical version they just essentially go 'aww, you still love your estranged wife, have a cookie and let's rise up together' :p

[Neil]

I'm with Neil - the director's cut is the way to see The Abyss. I saw it was on Film4 t'other night and it was the theatrical version, so I noticed a great big chunk missing at the end where Ed Harris converses with the aliens who bring up images of nuclear war etc, in a way that's like 'why should mankind be allowed to continue to exist', IIRC ... whereas in the theatrical version they just essentially go 'aww, you still love your estranged wife, have a cookie and let's rise up together' :p

And of course the theatrical release misses out...
the tidal wave as well!

[EvilNed]

I like most of his films, but he really dropped the ball with Avatar. That was an awful film. Everything about it was shit. For all the millions pumped into it, the CGI still looked like CGI and fake. Also, there was way too much of it. Also, the design of the entire world was dull and boring and unimaginative.

Titanic was his last good film... And also his second to last film overall.

[Neil]

he really dropped the ball with Avatar. That was an awful film. Everything about it was shit.
"Everything about it was shit" - Doesn't come across as particularly fair and considered view does it now!

[EvilNed]

I'm not a robot with objective views. I'm a human with subjective opinions. Avatar was shit and I didn't enjoy it, what do you want me to say? That the Na'vi didn't strike me as incredibly clichéed versions of space-native americans? That the space-rhino didn't just look like a rhino - but in space? That I thought the name "unobtanium" was clever, even though it wasn't? That the villains weren't cardboard cut outs and 1 dimensional with no belieavable motivation behind some of their more outrageous actions? That the entire f*cking film didn't remind of anything but a live-action remake of FernGully - The Last Rainforest?

In fact, I take that back. I'm pretty sure I am fair and considering when I say that Avatar is shit.

[Neil]

I'm a human with subjective opinions.Well maybe I'm confused by your reference point?

"shit" is something I'd reserve for what seems irredeemably poor. Something that shows no merit at all. And I wouldn't use it just because I didn't like a film, because there's plenty of film I didn't enjoy (at all), but I can see there's quality work involved in there such that I wouldn't dream of levelling such a term as "shit" towards it. To me, using a description as negative as "shit" towards Avatar seems nothing short of unfair IMHO.

While I find the plot a little simpler than I'd like, and some of the dialogue/acting it a touch wooden/stilted at times, there's enough in the film for me to happily watch it repeatedly. If nothing else, a couple of key scenes are beautiful and a wonder to watch! Certainly something I wouldn't expect from "shit"!


What I do seem to notice about "Avatar" and "Titanic" is that some people who don't enjoy them seemingly almost feel compelled to bounce back all the harder because of their huge success, appearing incredibly over judgemental and unfair about them. At worst they must be average affairs, yet we see people implying they're diabolically bad and paramount to insults to the silver screen. Bizarre!


In short I don't understand why people can't be fair towards what are perfectly well produced pieces of cinema even if they don't enjoy them much. And "shit" to me is a long way away from fair.

[Christopher Jon]

What I do seem to notice about "Avatar" and "Titanic" is that some people who don't enjoy them seemingly almost feel compelled to bounce back all the harder because of their huge success, appearing incredibly over judgemental and unfair about them. At worst they must be average affairs, yet we see people implying they're diabolically bad and paramount to insults to the silver screen. Bizarre!
+1 for truth.

Titanic and Avatar aren't for everybody but there are far more people who loved those films than haters.

Basement trolls. Gotta piss on everything. Continue being unhappy with your life. :)

[MinionZombie]

^^^
Well said Neil.

[shootemindehead]

What I do seem to notice about "Avatar" and "Titanic" is that some people who don't enjoy them seemingly almost feel compelled to bounce back all the harder because of their huge success, appearing incredibly over judgemental and unfair about them. At worst they must be average affairs, yet we see people implying they're diabolically bad and paramount to insults to the silver screen. Bizarre!

The obvious alternative to this though Neil, is that just some people wil severely underjudge a film because of its huge success.

While I do think that 'Titanic' was a generally awful movie, at least for its first half, it has nothing whatsoever to do with its success. It was the terribly cliched characters (Bliiy Zane, I mean really?), the unbelivably turgid dialogue and the incredibly unconvincing central "love story" plot. It's only in the second half, when the film gets going and shows clearly that the insipid events of the first half need never have happened.

As for 'Avatar', I only saw it a few months ago for the first time and was left nothing really, at the end. I doubt that I will ever watch it again, unlike teh second half of 'Titanic', I must say.

Regardless of a given films popularity or success, some films really are undeserving of their praise.

[Mike70]

While I do think that 'Titanic' was a generally awful movie, at least for its first half, it has nothing whatsoever to do with its success. It was the terribly cliched characters (Bliiy Zane, I mean really?), the unbelivably turgid dialogue and the incredibly unconvincing central "love story" plot. It's only in the second half, when the film gets going and shows clearly that the insipid events of the first half need never have happened.

^^^
this, a thousand times, this.

that is pretty much my take on "Titanic" as well. the first half is a boring exercise in the world of cliche ridden romance stories. i mean, how many frikkin' "boy from wrong side of tracks meets rich girl and they fall in love" movies must we endure. that is the single most overused plot in the entire history of film and no matter how good or bad the acting, directing, and script are, i find the entire idea boring as all hell.

I remember sitting there with my girlfriend at the time (how many men had to endure this film simply for that reason alone, i wonder?) thinking "when is this fooking ship going hit the iceberg because i am about to (in the words of Lou) flip my shit." the second half of "Titanic" is so superior to the first half that it is not even funny.

I've only seen "Avatar" once and i enjoyed it, mostly because of the incredible visual effects and the convincing world that they created. the story was rather of a bore and completely ripped off from "call me joe" by poul anderson.

I said before that cameron gets a pass because of his earlier work but he isn't above rational criticism.

[Sammich]

I thought Avatar was more like Dances with Wolves.

[SymphonicX]

It may be worth saying that "unobtanium" is apparently a bit of a running joke in the scientific community - a sort of in-joke really. I think the placement of that name was deliberate in that sense - but to the untrained ear (ie: mine until I read IMDB trivia) it did sound pretty f**king stupid.

So here's my summary of this thread:

James Cameron - you either love him or hate him.
But don't talk shit about Aliens.

[Mike70]

It may be worth saying that "unobtanium" is apparently a bit of a running joke in the scientific community - a sort of in-joke really.

yes, it is an in-joke among science geeks. it refers to an idea posited by some physicists and chemists that there may be stable heavy elements beyond uranium and plutonium (which we now know is primordial). such an element, if stable, would have some amazing, nearly magical properties. so far, all the elements found/created beyond plutonium are unstable, radioactive as all fook and not of much use except in research.

hell, there are primordial elements like Francium, Polonium, and Astatine that hardly exist in nature (at least on earth).

[EvilNed]

RE - Avatar

I just can't stress enough how much of a shitty film the first one is.

You know,

just in case someobody was wondering.

[rongravy]

Four pages of awesomeness I have just read. Mostly hilarious, and even some being educational.
I will say I'd like to see T2 again in the near future, as it's been a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time. Talking decades possibly...

I'm sure I've said this before hereabouts, but my kid was sick and I had to take her home for a bit during Titanic. So I missed most of it originally up to a bit before disaster struck.
I will say, at the time, those FX were pretty sweeet. But I got stuck watching this in Dallas last August, and it kind of reminded me of Twister. When Twister came out, I was like, "WTF?!?"
But when I saw it semi recently I felt kind of let down. Just kind of ho humm. Not so timeless...
Anyhoo, I will admit I have a hatred for Leo that almost rivals my hatred for all things Kevin Spacey. It taints my view from the start, also admittedly. Hell, he still looks like he's 12. But everything up to the iceberg can suck donkey balls as far as I'm concerned. Watching that made me want to go powder my vagina.
Yecccccchhhhhhhhhhhh!!!
So yeah, it was cool to watch the ship go down on a huge screen. It was also really nice to watch Leo go down slowly into the water, all frozed up.
And that chick's boobehs.