Australia's successful gun ban that the U.S. should follow

[Sammich]

After the Port Arthur mass shooting that left 35 dead and 23 wounded, Australia took the brave and correct action of banning all civilian possession of semi-automatic rifles and pump shotguns. It is important that concerned Americans capitalize on the Aurora tragedy and adopt the same common sense and reasonable gun control measures.

p8RDWltHxRc

[Neil]

After the Port Arthur mass shooting that left 35 dead and 23 wounded, Australia took the brave and correct action of banning all civilian possession of semi-automatic rifles and pump shotguns. It is important that concerned Americans capitalize on the Aurora tragedy and adopt the same common sense and reasonable gun control measures.

p8RDWltHxRc
The increased figures are not surprising are they? Law abiding citizens hand their guns in, while some criminals do not. So we now have the lop-sided situation where innocent people are no longer armed, but a large number of criminals most likely are. This large increase isn't suprising too me.

Suspect it'll be ten(s) of years for this to play out though!? We'll only know the true outcome then!?

[Andy]

I am against gun control, sure these crimes are tragic business but lets not forget that both hunting and shooting are legitimate and enjoyable sports. Gun control is just another example of liberal politicians using tragedy to take another bit of fun away from the common man. Im sad australia has taken this measure, its one of the first UK laws id change if i was prime minister and its one thing ive always admired about america. Aslong as you have no criminal record or history of mental illness then i see absolutly no reason why you shouldnt be allowed to own or fire a gun whatsoever.

150 people die from being struck by falling coconuts every year, should we ban them and cut all coconut tree's down?

[rongravy]

Heck, if anything there should be a push for more honest decent folk to get armed up and licensed to carry. Criminals might not be so bold if their victims aren't so... helpless?
I'd like to see the percentage of licensed gun carriers that commit crimes. I bet it isn't very high compared to the dickheads who would continue to carry them illegally regardless of stricter gun laws. About the only thing I'd be cool with is having to take a course on safety first before being able to buy. Licensed carriers tend to not do stupid schnizz.

[Neil]

its one of the first UK laws id change if i was prime minister
You'd liberalise the gun laws in the UK? Wow! We're in the very lucky state of affairs where we do not really have these devices in circulation, and you want to undo this? You want to make it easy for druggies to get hold of them? For angry school kids to get hold of them? For individuals caught in the heat of the moment to get hold of them? For general nutters to get hold of them?

Can you imagine how many Friday night brawls would end in a shooting? Can you imagine how many marital arguments would end in a shooting? Can you imagine how classrooms would get shot up? Can you imaging how many rapes would take place at gun point? Can you imaging how many muggings would take place at gun point? Can you imagine how many burglars would enter gun ready? Can you imagine how many people would die from gun related accidents?

I'm stunned!


Can you not see that most likely throwing these devices, which are aimed at making killing as easy as possible, into general circulation, will allow more people, to kill other people, more easily?


Aslong as you have no criminal record or history of mental illness then i see absolutly no reason why you shouldnt be allowed to own or fire a gun whatsoever.
Look at the mass shootings that have taken place in the US, or indeed the UK or europe. How many would your careful criteria have stopped. Not many... It only takes someone to go postal once with guns for dozens to die. Better if they don't have the guns to hand when they do.


150 people die from being struck by falling coconuts every year, should we ban them and cut all coconut tree's down?
If this is a demonstration of the logic within your argument? Not the strongest of points I feel...


using tragedy to take another bit of fun away from the common man.
I'm afraid that's society for you though isn't it. It's laws passed for the greater good! I'd like to apply my 200 odd hp alot more than I do and drive around at 150mph as much as I can. But strangely society sees this as an unecessary risk, so has introduced speed limits to take some of my fun away. I manage to live with it though.


We're incredibly fortunate in this country to not really have to worry about gun crime... Let's keep it that way. I suspect many Americans will even agree with this for the UK. Of course it won't work in the US, as their culture is very different, and also the genie is already out of the bottle over there. But over here, it's a very different situation and I for one am happy to give up my right to own a gun if it means in doing so the very people I really don't want to have a gun, don't have one.

[Sammich]

I agree. Here is an example of the UK implementing a successful "common sense" ban on guns.

YuHgql_PADM

[shootemindehead]

Heck, if anything there should be a push for more honest decent folk to get armed up and licensed to carry. Criminals might not be so bold if their victims aren't so... helpless?


Or alternatively, they'd just shoot you in the back and take your wallet instead.

[rongravy]

Or alternatively, they'd just shoot you in the back and take your wallet instead.
Ok, then I guess a good idea would be to pair up...
And stay back to back all the time.:shifty:

[Neil]

I agree. Here is an example of the UK implementing a successful "common sense" ban on guns.

YuHgql_PADM

Wow! Talk about an article with an agenda... Almost feels like watching typical mindless Fox News - Where/when is that report from?

When the article started using rhetoric like "without a doubt has failed," you have to question the impartiality of the reporting etc. How do they know the legislation has failed? Where is their evidence? Where is any form of proof of expert opinion, other than a reporter saying it, and an old lady saying she doesn't feel safe at home.


So let's consider the gun crime rates in the UK. Although the trend is upwards, the figures are still minute. The argument that someone needs a gun at home in order to defend themselves is null and void. And if we consider the rise in gun crime say in London, much of it is down to guns being used as 'fashion accessories'. Can you imagine how that trend might look if guns were even more accessible?

So I'll re-iterate. In my life time I expect never to even see a gun out in the 'wild'. And I doubt anyone I know ever will either. I'm so very thankful I live in a country where that is the case. Why allow a device whose primary goal is to kill people as easily as possible into general circulation if you can prevent it?

I fail to see how allowing more guns into the public - at this point in time - can improve matters. If gun crime substantially increases, then maybe we'll reach a time when the public may need their own weapons. But we certainly aren't anywhere near that point, and I do hope we never are.


I'd be fascinated if our US friends don't see the UK's situation as ideal for the UK? Our gun crime is minute and I'd be bemused if they think if dishing out more guns into the public would achieve anything other than to increase those figures.



Note1: The handgun legislation in the UK was brought in on the back of the Dunblane school massacre, where over a dozen kids were shot. If the legislation has stopped one such further event, it's been worth it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

Note2: Our gun crime figures include replica weapons and air rifles. If you look at some of the gun crime stats in the UK, a huge percentage is down to these types of devices. And this ratio has increased. ie: More are down to air rifles. So there's more to the figures - not surprising the above video report didn't go into any detail such as this as it might undermine its agenda.

Note3: None of my opinions on gun legislation in the UK are in anyway aimed at those in the US or Australia who have very different situations.

[Andy]

You missed my entire point neil, shooting is a fun sport and something id like to do.. i have been shooting a couple of times and enjoyed it but i cant do that becuase our nanny state government says i cant own a gun.

Now what your saying is right in principle and im not arguing that but where it fails is that strict gun control only stops legitimate, sensible and careful gun owners. The type of people you say you want kept away from guns like criminals and druggies still have access becuase theres such a huge black market in the UK. I Knew people in manchester before i moved away that carried guns and could get one at a hours notice.

Im sorry neil but ill never agree with gun control becuase in my view, its pointless. Your taking away from people who want to legally own a registered and tracable gun to use for a recreational sport and your not controlling the rampant black market either, all gun control does is arm the very people who you say you want kept away from guns and take arms away from legitimate users which i might add, in the UK, includes most police officers.

[Neil]

You missed my entire point neil, shooting is a fun sport and something id like to do.. i have been shooting a couple of times and enjoyed it but i cant do that becuase our nanny state government says i cant own a gun.Confused? "I can't do that" - But you've just said you've been? I've been shooting too. Turned up, armed up, shot... The nanny state government certainly let me shoot.


Now what your saying is right in principle and im not arguing that but where it fails is that strict gun control only stops legitimate, sensible and careful gun owners.
How do you determine a sensible careful gun owner? Many shootings are carried out by respectable people with clean records. Only takes a moment for a marital dispute to turn nasty and a fit of anger to move a trigger finger. Only takes a moment for an angry school kid to get into dads cabinet and take a hand gun into school. etc etc... For every X guns you put out there, a percentage will be misused. People are not perfect, and can make mistakes, so why help them with a device that makes killing as easy as possible?

I'm sure Derrick Bird fitted this criteria, hence him being allowed to own the guns that killed a dozen people.


The type of people you say you want kept away from guns like criminals and druggies still have access becuase theres such a huge black market in the UK.Yes, they have access to them, but it's not easy. Your average druggy would have to go to some lengths to get hold of one. And certainly people in a fit of anger won't go through all the hoops to get one... but if there was a gun in the house?


I Knew people in manchester before i moved away that carried guns and could get one at a hours notice.And if more guns were available the numbers of such people would increase, and the time decrease.


Im sorry neil but ill never agree with gun control becuase in my view, its pointless. Your taking away from people who want to legally own a registered and tracable gun to use for a recreational sport and your not controlling the rampant black market either, all gun control does is arm the very people who you say you want kept away from guns and take arms away from legitimate users which i might add, in the UK, includes most police officers.Simply don't agree... I'd fear if guns became more freely available, (a) more will get used for the wrong reasons - eg: ending an argument, (b) it will introduce an arms race - the more innocent people have a gun, the more likely criminals will be to carry one.


Anyway, I'm a little unclear as to what your issue is? Handgun not in circulation? Or the existing legislation on shotgun/rifles?

[Tricky]

You missed my entire point neil, shooting is a fun sport and something id like to do.. i have been shooting a couple of times and enjoyed it but i cant do that becuase our nanny state government says i cant own a gun.

Now what your saying is right in principle and im not arguing that but where it fails is that strict gun control only stops legitimate, sensible and careful gun owners. The type of people you say you want kept away from guns like criminals and druggies still have access becuase theres such a huge black market in the UK. I Knew people in manchester before i moved away that carried guns and could get one at a hours notice.

Im sorry neil but ill never agree with gun control becuase in my view, its pointless. Your taking away from people who want to legally own a registered and tracable gun to use for a recreational sport and your not controlling the rampant black market either, all gun control does is arm the very people who you say you want kept away from guns and take arms away from legitimate users which i might add, in the UK, includes most police officers.

You can own a gun, you can perfectly legally own shotguns, hunting rifles, air rifles, CO2 rifles, crossbows etc in the UK, you just need to get a form from the police, fill it in, have the background checks, provide a good reason for wanting the guns (sport or pest control mainly) and prove that you can keep them in a secure manner, get character references and signatures from responsible people who have known you for more than 5 years and the guns are yours! The police will come to check on your storage/security once or twice a year and you have to renew your license every so many years, but thats it. The gun control in the UK isnt as strict as people seem to make out, but it does apply common sense and despite one or two nutjobs slipping through the net (Derrick Bird for one), it seems to work pretty well. I'm not anti gun by any means but I'm all for gun control in this manner. Fair enough it doesnt stop the criminals getting illegal guns, but thats no reason to arm the entire population in my opinion.

[Neil]

^^ What he said!

I can't believe anyone would want to unbottle the genie in the UK. We're in a very lucky position at the moment!

[babomb]

Shooting is awesome! If I was suddenly unable to go shooting, I would miss it terribly!
Are there shooting ranges in the UK that you can go to and buy a few boxes of rounds to shoot at paper targets?

I'm very pro-gun and anti-gun control, but I can see where you're coming from Neil with the genie in the bottle thing. I understand the logic behind the idea of less guns=less gun related deaths, i'm not daft or ignorant to your logic. I just can't imagine what it's like to grow up and live a gun free lifestyle. I'm from rural IL, so guns are a central theme. When I was a kid you'd see alot of people with pickup trucks with gun racks in the rear window, Red Dawn style.
And it seems like after the CO massacre, everywhere around the web all I see are people from outside the US preaching to people from the US about giving up guns, and how bad guns are and how terrible people are for opposing a gun ban. But from my perspective, I don't know anyone who's ever been the victim of gun crime, or anyone who's ever been killed by a gun except a friend who died in Iraq and I know "of" a kid that shot himself in the foot hunting years and years ago.
So it seems like the concerns and general opinions on guns from others seem so far removed from my own experiences with them. And I think if more people had experience with guns in a responsible way that the opinion of them as "mass death machines" would change. It seems like people who have no or limited exposure to guns regard them in a very fearful way. Which is no way to view anything, IMO.

Anyway, I'm not here to debate gun control. Just wanted to throw that out there...

[Mike70]

i won't belabor the point about how sickening i find some of you but in this knee jerk, bleeding heart, whine from the navel world we live in we have forgotten that it is the darkness in the human heart that should worry us and not machines. they are inanimate, completely neutral, have no feelings, no thoughts, and cannot make decisions.


for me the big question is: Why do people do these sorts of things in the first place? it isn't the means used. that is irrelevant completely. it can be a gun, fertilizer used as a bomb (several hundred people were killed in OK City, a large number of them children and no one wanted to ban fertilizer afterwards) , a car being driven through a crowd, Sarin gas, knives, swords, or anything that can be used as a weapon.

it boils down to this simple and inescapable fact: you cannot stop a single determined person from doing harm to a large number of people if they take a notion too. there are simply too many ways to go about it.

some of you really seem to live in a fantasy land. i hope you enjoy it there and i really hope the real world never intrudes on your peaceful paradise, because if it does, you will know horror and madness and then you will die.

[Tricky]

Am I included in the sickening part? I've not said anywhere that I'm against guns, I've been around them all my life, I own some, I can shoot well, maintain them, I'm safe with them and I've even had some basic military instruction with the L85A2 when I was joining the territorial army, but at the same time I'm all for the kind of regulation that stops every man and his dog having them. I don't see what the problem is with that.

[babomb]

but at the same time I'm all for the kind of regulation that stops every man and his dog having them. I don't see what the problem is with that. The problem with that, at least here in the US, is that regulation like that isn't benign. It sets the stage for further regulation, regulation that has political undertones. The question is why would you wanna stop "every man" from having access to firearms?
I can understand wanting to prevent criminals and the mentally ill from having access to them. And I understand that you aren't saying that nobody should have them.
But when regulation like this is put in place in the US, it has a tendency to be continually expanded and exploited for political and monetary reasons. So the easiest way to avoid that is to prevent such regulation in the 1st place.
Our government abuses every single power that it's given, and it ignores the fact that those powers are given to it by the people. So we have to be very cautious about giving our government additional power because inevitably it will be used against us.

[Neil]

Our government abuses every single power that it's given, and it ignores the fact that those powers are given to it by the people. So we have to be very cautious about giving our government additional power because inevitably it will be used against us.This seems a huge cultural difference between the US and UK? If we consider the UK, do you believe we are any less of a democracy than the US due to our gun legislation? Do you believe in truth we are any less free due to this? Do you think our political system is worse?

I think we can honestly say that really if we compare the US and UK we can safely say UK citizens are no worse off freedom wise, or politically, due to gun legislation.

Now, in the US, there culturally a huge 'love affair' with the gun. Maybe this even dates back to the war of independence, who knows? It almost seems instilled in American DNA somehow. Is this wrong? Can't say. Certainly I can't imagine if every US civilian lost their gun the government turning into some (more) evil despot and running amok. But that's me, over here, in a different culture with a very different outlook on guns.

Ultimately, the US is so far down the gun ownership path I can't see how guns could be removed. They are so tied into the US culture , and so numerous, it would take generation(s) to remove them from public ownership. And there's simply not the will (need) to do that?


I can understand wanting to prevent criminals and the mentally ill from having access to them.Now, over here in the UK, we're in the position where guns are not as prevalent as in the US. Personally I'm thankful for this. I'm certain if guns were as numerous as in the US gun crime and death rates would explode! I can't imagine how many domestic argument and disputes would end up in a shooting. How many road rage arguments would end up in a shooting. How many teenagers would end up taking a gun into school etc etc etc...

As I've said over and over. Would I like to own a gun? Yes. But if me not owning one means druggies, rapists, angry kids and criminals most likely don't have one too, I'm happy to forgo that right.

And once again, I'm only talking UK culture here!


The outlook on gun ownership is clearly very different culturally between the US and UK, and indeed our situations are somewhat different. So our view/opinions on this topic don't transpose very well to each others countries.

[Tricky]

The question is why would you wanna stop "every man" from having access to firearms?


Because in the UK there are groups of scrotes like these hanging around on every street corner and park in the cities and often towns as well
http://ambivalencepersonified.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/chav231.jpg

And you absolutely would not want these feral teenagers to be carrying, its bad enough that they usually carry knives, if they had free access to guns then it would be a nightmare.
Did you see the footage of the riots in the UK last summer? These were carried out by those type of people in large groups, some of whom were carrying illegal guns, there were several shootings and even footage of them trying to shoot down a police helicopter. If every one of them had been armed as well as those who were trying to stop them, it would have been a complete bloodbath.

[Neil]

^^ This (at least to some degree)!

Again, purely commenting from UK perspective!

[AcesandEights]

This is just going to turn into yet another cyclical firearms argument :|

[Neil]

This is just going to turn into yet another cyclical firearms argument :|

Possibly, but I don't see why it should!? What makes you say that?

[Sammich]

And you absolutely would not want these feral teenagers to be carrying, its bad enough that they usually carry knives, if they had free access to guns then it would be a nightmare.


Guess what? Even after all of your country's gun bans GANGS ARE CARRYING ILLEGAL GUNS and in fact gun crimes have gone UP not down since the bans.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html)

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.

The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.

In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.

In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.

The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.

[Tricky]

Guess what? Even after all of your country's gun bans GANGS ARE CARRYING ILLEGAL GUNS and in fact gun crimes have gone UP not down since the bans.

.[/I]

Yup, plenty of ex-IRA guns and others smuggled in from the aftermath of the Balkans war in the 90's are in circulation among inner city gangs, but they still arent enough in numbers to be particular threats to anyone other than rival gangs. No reason for the rest of us to tool up "just in case", just let the animals wipe each other out. Whatever guns they have I can guarantee you our armed police units can easily outgun them.

[babomb]

This seems a huge cultural difference between the US and UK? If we consider the UK, do you believe we are any less of a democracy than the US due to our gun legislation? Do you believe in truth we are any less free due to this? Do you think our political system is worse?

I think we can honestly say that really if we compare the US and UK we can safely say UK citizens are no worse off freedom wise, or politically, due to gun legislation.

Now, in the US, there culturally a huge 'love affair' with the gun. Maybe this even dates back to the war of independence, who knows? It almost seems instilled in American DNA somehow. Is this wrong? Can't say. Certainly I can't imagine if every US civilian lost their gun the government turning into some (more) evil despot and running amok. But that's me, over here, in a different culture with a very different outlook on guns.

Ultimately, the US is so far down the gun ownership path I can't see how guns could be removed. They are so tied into the US culture , and so numerous, it would take generation(s) to remove them from public ownership. And there's simply not the will (need) to do that?

Now, over here in the UK, we're in the position where guns are not as prevalent as in the US. Personally I'm thankful for this. I'm certain if guns were as numerous as in the US gun crime and death rates would explode! I can't imagine how many domestic argument and disputes would end up in a shooting. How many road rage arguments would end up in a shooting. How many teenagers would end up taking a gun into school etc etc etc...

As I've said over and over. Would I like to own a gun? Yes. But if me not owning one means druggies, rapists, angry kids and criminals most likely don't have one too, I'm happy to forgo that right.

And once again, I'm only talking UK culture here!


The outlook on gun ownership is clearly very different culturally between the US and UK, and indeed our situations are somewhat different. So our view/opinions on this topic don't transpose very well to each others countries.
In the US, the gun is seen as a symbol of freedom by many people. To those of us who guard and value the constitution as it is, having the right to own a firearm is a reminder that the constitution is still an effective document that grants the people inalienable rights and limits the powers of the state.
If you remove guns, that means you remove the 2nd amm, which means that the constitution is no longer a viable document. Which then means that it no longer limits the powers of the state, and in turn no longer ensures the inalienable rights of the people.
I wouldn't say that the UK is any less of a democracy because there's less guns. And I can't say that I think you're less free because of it, since I don't know what it's like to live there.
But I do know that the US government doesn't do things for the good of the people. So when they make decisions on things and write up legislature, it's never for altruistic reasons. It's always for the purpose of gaining more power, so that the people at the top can make more money. I'm not sure where the UK stands on this. Since the UK and the US are always allies for the most part, and the power elite are not bound by borders, my guess would be that the UK is also subject to this same BS.
Naturally, the details are gonna differ because it's a different culture.

There's just no way to avoid noticing the swift trend toward fascism in the US. We got militarized cops that aren't held accountable for their crimes due to laws regarding national security, we have ever increasing surveillance on citizens, our government is trying to outlaw reporting on government corruption, trying to outlaw and prevent people from being self sufficient, trying to prevent people from speaking out or assembling, preventing people from seeking justice against people in power for their crimes. They put chemicals in our food and water, they use propaganda to guide our decisions, they force us to be dependent on things that destroy the environment and in turn destroy us ourselves. They slap people with huge fines for things like feeding poor children without a permit, or supplying bottled water to relief workers without a permit. Or selling produce to people from your farm without a permit.
Bottom line is that our leaders don't value our lives or our prosperity. Not one bit!
So for those same leaders to say that they want to limit firearm ownership to prevent the deaths of innocent people, well, you'd have to be a fool to believe that.

[Tricky]

The UK government isnt particularly totalitarian like that, sure they meddle in our every day lives in small and sometimes irritating ways, but not in a way that would make you think they are out to get you, unless you're one of those criminals who cant seem to keep out of trouble, so is always accusing the police of hassling them just because they always get caught doing things they shouldn't be. The police can be a bit political on occasion but the military is sworn to the crown rather than the government, so there's no danger of a Syria situation where the government sets its forces on its own people. We may be allies and it is sometimes joked that the UK is americas lapdog on the world stage, but I think the ordinary people live under very different regimes.
From what you're saying there babomb, the US government is getting more and more like the regimes it is so keen to topple in other countries!

[babomb]

From what you're saying there babomb, the US government is getting more and more like the regimes it is so keen to topple in other countries! Exactly! Except that those little 3rd world countries use religion as justification, and their resources are extremely limited. In the US, the resources that can be utilized are seemingly endless. So we have a regime that doesn't value the lives or well being of the people, that seeks to control and regulate every aspect of our lives, with no qualms about killing or allowing the deaths of large numbers of people, and they have seemingly infinite resources at their disposal to use to that end.
I think people from abroad look at the US and see people with nice homes, nice cars, flashy clothes and jewelry, or fat people with the time and money to get up to 300lbs while doing nothing but watching TV and playing videogames, or celebrities. These are the things you would see from the media relating to the US if you aren't from here. But TV shows like "The Hills", "The OC", "Keeping up with the Kardashians", "Runs House", that kind of shit is so far seperated from the reality of the majority of Americans. The reality of the majority of typical Americans is nothing like you see on TV. All that shit is fake! That's all commercialized and built around product placement to make us yearn for that lavish lifestyle that we'll never have. That's why they call it the "American Dream", because you have to be asleep to buy into it.
So when we say things about needing guns to protect our liberties, other people don't really understand why we would feel that way. Most people think we're either a little crazy, a little over-dramatic, and very selfish. Because if you look at the US through the prism of the media, Americans have it made. The US is this rich nation, where you can get anything you want, be anything you want, do anything you want and look and feel great doing it.
But that isn't reality!