TWD 3x05 "Say The Word" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The fifth episode of season three - keep your discussion of 3x05 to this thread, don't post about it in the shoutbox, and as always keep any future comic book storylines/spoilers within "spoiler tags" (if you don't know how to use spoiler tags, go to the HPOTD FAQ and look up the section on 'BB Codes') - and finally, ENJOY THE DISCUSSION! :cool:

[kidgloves]

Directed by the man Nicotero. They seem to be doing the episodes in blocks with Dickerson doing 301 and 302. Guy Ferland directed 303 and 304 so I wonder if Greg is directing 306 as well. I hope so. He seems to have some directing chops when given a budget.
I haven't had this one spoiled for me like last week but i've gleaned some info and everything points to a dark and strange episode indeed.

[MinionZombie]

I saw some non-spoilery preview images as officially released by AMC, and I've got an idea of what might be happening in part of the episode in one of the locations. :p Something from the comic books - looking forward to seeing it.

I was going to mention that Nicotero is directing this - hadn't noticed the "block directing" as you say, interesting. I seem to remember hearing Nicotero saying he was getting to direct as many as 3 episodes this season, so we'll see. Perhaps two episodes back-to-back might be too much for his workload (also being an exec producer and, of course, the gore maestro), but we'll see. 2x11 was a really nicely done episode - and character heavy too - so he's certainly got chops.

Have you see his United Monster Talent Agency short film? It's class. :thumbsup:

[kidgloves]

I saw some non-spoilery preview images as officially released by AMC, and I've got an idea of what might be happening in part of the episode in one of the locations. :p Something from the comic books - looking forward to seeing it.

I was going to mention that Nicotero is directing this - hadn't noticed the "block directing" as you say, interesting. I seem to remember hearing Nicotero saying he was getting to direct as many as 3 episodes this season, so we'll see. Perhaps two episodes back-to-back might be too much for his workload (also being an exec producer and, of course, the gore maestro), but we'll see. 2x11 was a really nicely done episode - and character heavy too - so he's certainly got chops.

Have you see his United Monster Talent Agency short film? It's class. :thumbsup:

Aye. I've seen it. It was that and Bassmans love of The Munsters that reminded me of the old Universal classics. The recent box set is ace.

I've seen a screen grab of the Aussie promo for the next episode with regards to the comic book event you mention. The last frame of the "next week on TWD" promo also shows another scene with the same character. Looks like what might be a bit disturbing storyline for some people. I know that my sister is going to struggle with it for various different reasons

[thxleo]

Directed by the man Nicotero. They seem to be doing the episodes in blocks with Dickerson doing 301 and 302. Guy Ferland directed 303 and 304 so I wonder if Greg is directing 306 as well. I hope so. He seems to have some directing chops when given a budget.
I haven't had this one spoiled for me like last week but i've gleaned some info and everything points to a dark and strange episode indeed.

I believe Greg also directed episode 315, not sure about any other episodes.

Honestly, I didn't care for this episode. It's got nothing to do with Greg's work - the directing and the acting are top notch as usual. However, I think the story in this episode is lacking and it kind of spins it wheels, doesn't really go anywhere, IMHO. Interested in what you guys will think.

One of Greg's DAWN zombie cameos didn't make it into this cut, but he was able to do an improved version of it for epsiode 315. I can't wait to see that one because us Romero nerds will definitely get a kick out of it. :)

[Cykotic]

Well, that was f*cked!

I'm dying to quote that famous line from Beyond Thunderdome, but I think I'll let one of y'all say it!

So, just wondering.... where's carol because after seeing what daryl did at the graves, I have an idea...

[babomb]

Why be so cryptic about Carol?
And is the phone a hallucination?

[AnxietyDilemma]

Daryl was the highlight of the entire episode for me. Overall, I was disappointed by this weeks installment.

[bassman]

Yet another great episode. Five for five so far, imo. Season Three is coming along nicely.

Can't wait to hear what the other side of that phone sounds like next week....

[facestabber]

I'm rewatching just to catch couple items.

Carol is assumed dead right? But why dig a grave with no body? Wouldn't cross suffice? So I'm guessing producers are just messing with us cause I believe Carol is alive.

Loved the dialog about tdog driving the van to save seniors.

So are they implying lori's body was completely consumed? I have a problem with that considering skull and bones should still be there.

[AnxietyDilemma]

I'm rewatching just to catch couple items.


So are they implying lori's body was completely consumed? I have a problem with that considering skull and bones should still be there.

I have been pondering that very thing myself.

[Moon Knight]

Good episode but I'm kind of on the fence about a couple things. One being what the hell were they implying with that Walker that Rick put down at the end. Did he eat Lori? I mean, they did dig a grave so what the hell went there? Same for carol.

The CGI zombie hacks with Michonne's sword was a little flat as well.

The T-Dog story was a nice touch and Daryl stepping up and taking in action while Rick was gone was great.

Overall happy with this one but the phone call at the end has me worried. The story is moving at break neck speeds compared to the source material. Next week's preview gives a hint about Carol too.

[AnxietyDilemma]

The story is moving at break neck speeds compared to the source material.

I'm not even familiar with the source material, but the pacing is what left me a bit disappointed. I feel that they are trying to cover too much in a single episode, so we get little tidbits here and there. At the end of the episode I was left thinking "What the hell was all of that?" At this point I could care less about Woodbury. Maybe that will change?

[rongravy]

I'm rewatching just to catch couple items.

Carol is assumed dead right? But why dig a grave with no body? Wouldn't cross suffice? So I'm guessing producers are just messing with us cause I believe Carol is alive.

I was buying the poker face on the producer that was on Talking Dead saying she might be dead. Rewatching now to see if there was any real mention of her at all this episode, as I was messing around some in the kitchen. I know Talking Dead will have to address the Carol being AWOL this episode issue.


I loved this episode. The Governor reveals more weirdness. Kookoo.

P.S. Is that my avvy's zombie that appeared in this one when Merle was fighting that guy?

[Cykotic]

Ok, so i'm the only person, who thought "TWO MEN ENTER... ONE MAN LEAVE!"? seriously?

Alright!

One more thing, is there any way back for Rick now or can we assume that Daryl is now the de-facto leader?

[sandrock74]

So, Carl didn't shoot Lori? Rick found the slug on the floor and a smeared trail of blood that went off someplace. I'm guessing Lori reanimated and she's shambling around the prison?

[Cykotic]

Yep, mucho confused now. Where the hell is she?

**actually, forget what i just said... watching Talking Dead. Just revealed what happened to her

[sandrock74]

Yeah, I just saw that on the Talking Dead, too. Now we know! I think they should have made that more clear in the actual episode.

[facestabber]

So, Carl didn't shoot Lori? Rick found the slug on the floor and a smeared trail of blood that went off someplace. I'm guessing Lori reanimated and she's shambling around the prison?

Nicotero just explained that Lori's body was drug by the walker and consumed. Not sure why a zombie would drag a body rather than just consume it where it lay. Solid episode but some holes. Can't get enough though. Hour episodes aren't enough

[Cykotic]

Maybe they're starving and will now eat anything... we've seen that they will eat animal carcasses, why not non-reanimated bodies

[JonOfTheShred]

Holy fuck, every episode literally has enough material for a movie.

Season 2 covered what, 5 - 10 issues of material? The show is moving entirely new fast through it's best material. They've done the arena fight, Woodbury has heavy hints of the Alexandria Safe-Zone, Loris dead, Rick is already hearing the phone ring....holy fuck. The reason people were pissed about the pacing in Season 2 is because it dragged at the farm, we weren't suggesting "Cover full arcs of the comic in 2 episodes." Having said all that, I still think this season is the strongest zombie 'cinema' since Shaun of the Dead. (Cinema as in, live action portrayal of zombie apocalypse.)

Thought it was funny when Maggie bounced with Daryl. Glenn is all like, "FFFFUUUUU, she's gonna cheat on me with the coolest character on the show."

Rick has completely lost it. Loved seeing him decimate those walkers, very good acting too when he sort of attacked Glenn there. He's certainly lost it pretty fast. If almost feels like they're reversing Rick and the Governors roles slightly, making it seem that both leaders have their ups and downs, because Governor isn't nearly as twisted as he was in the comic, he's a much more multidimensional character. Rick is scarier than the Governor, at this point.

Liked Daryl taking control. He's definitely the glue holding everything together, not only as the toughest warrior, and most resourceful in times of peril, greatest survivalist, etc., but he also lightens the mood with jokes. He's the only character with any sense of humor, making him far and away the most likable character. It's as if they gave Daryl ALL the good traits of a apocalyptic survival buddy. Always got your back. Toughest person in the group. Most skilled at survival. Will take your girl on the road and not bang her. He's a good dude.

I found it funny they also do cliff-hangers at commercial breaks. As a fan of the comic, they ALWAYS end on huge moments, and in the show its rather humorous to see it do the same thing before every commercial.

Like everyone else, I enjoyed the back-story of T-Dog, helping the elderly folks with rides during the onset of the outbreak.

This episode had throwbacks to Day and Dawn. The boiler room Lori gave birth / died in / got eaten in reminds me of the boiler room in Dawn of the Dead. And the way they captured zombies, lead by Meryl, felt a lot like Day of the Dead in the mines, with Meryl kind of being like Steele.

Loved the creepy daycare / playground sequence. Awesome tension there. Was hilarious it all climaxed with the anti-climatic possum reveal. Then the group feeding the baby together...they're all raising the kid together. Like a giant family. They definitely have grown really close in the apocalypse, as is expected.

And lastly, I enjoyed Meryl as a celebrated bad ass. 2nd episode he's shouting racial slurs and intimidating his entire group, two seasons later he's getting cheered by an entire community of survivors. Funny stuff.

[ProfessorChaos]

me and my usual viewing guests all kinda agreed that this episode was rather weaksauce. carol's name wasn't even mentioned, they never even bothered searching for her....and if they were implying that a walker consumed every single bit of lori, that was cheap as hell....since we've had numerous instances of this show where they show carcasses only half devoured, it seems sorta odd that one walker would totally finish lori's corpse off, bones included. and it's waaay too early for rick to be getting phone calls, if you ask me. i honestly was hoping they'd leave that part out of the story.

it was cool to see daryl stepping up, even taking care of "lil ass-kicker"....but other than that, this episode fell pretty flat, in my opinion. still better than most shows on television and most zombie films, but a far cry from anything so far this season or even going back as far as the 2nd half of season two....

[rgc2005]

Man they shove a whole lot into one episode:
Maggie, still isn't hungry enough to eat Possum.
Daryl getting all paternal and singing to the baby.
Glenn getting a psychological boost and moral compass check from Herschel.
Carl remembering the names of every dead woman he has encountered.
Rick's journey through the basement of the prison reminds me of Luke Skywalker in the cave on Doghabah.
The Governor is very "Multi-Dimensional" but still a murdering psychopath.
Andrea's look when she realizes Michonne is right.
Michonne letting the Governor live even after reading his notebook, looking in the special room and finding the Gladiator Pit.
Woodbury does seem to be a mash up of the two towns in the books.

[facestabber]

Yep and I agree. I can suspend disbelief after all this is a zombie story. But the impossibility of human mouths consuming bone. A skull? They just went to far with it. I enjoyed the whole engorged zombie bit, slowed by its huge meal but it went too far to suggest what it did.

Im assuming the phone call is some reference to loss of sanity in the comics. I just like Rick. I will always root for him to pull it together and survive. I cant believe the journey we have been given from the opening scenes of Rick and Shane chatting about life in the squad. I empathize and connect with Rick and I assume its from episode 1 season 1 of how he awakens to the possible end of human kind. Alone.

Some day when I'm an old gray haired man I will look back at the different eras of tv I enjoyed. I will always be fond of The Fall Guy, Tour of Duty, Airwolf and others but the ride that TWD has been so far will be what I will still be talking about. Minor flaws, I enjoy discussing but I can live with them.

[bungi43]

I don't know about you guys, but I never even really concerned myself with the zombie eating "all of Lori". They never showed her dead body after carl shot her, they didn't show Carl shoot her, so is there really any reason to expect they'd show her half eaten carcass? While it wasn't the best implication of what was going on, it was pretty clear that zombie ate Lori. I'm just going to assume there is still part of her there and they didn't show it just like they didn't show anything associated with her death.



Yep and I agree. I can suspend disbelief after all this is a zombie story. But the impossibility of human mouths consuming bone. A skull? They just went to far with it. I enjoyed the whole engorged zombie bit, slowed by its huge meal but it went too far to suggest what it did.

Im assuming the phone call is some reference to loss of sanity in the comics. I just like Rick. I will always root for him to pull it together and survive. I cant believe the journey we have been given from the opening scenes of Rick and Shane chatting about life in the squad. I empathize and connect with Rick and I assume its from episode 1 season 1 of how he awakens to the possible end of human kind. Alone.

Some day when I'm an old gray haired man I will look back at the different eras of tv I enjoyed. I will always be fond of The Fall Guy, Tour of Duty, Airwolf and others but the ride that TWD has been so far will be what I will still be talking about. Minor flaws, I enjoy discussing but I can live with them.

[MinionZombie]

My weekly debrief...

IN SUMMARY:

* The Governor's undead daughter - the inhuman gurgling sound was a bit of a giveaway a few seconds too soon, but one of the weirdest revelations about his warped private life from the comics made its way to the screen. Creepy - very creepy - and testament to Morrissey's ability to juggle the multiple faces of The Governor.

* The glimpse inside The Governor's notebook was an interesting insight. Crime in Woodbury is apparently up 20%, the price of food is up 40% (but with hopes they can decrease it 20% over the next year), and there are plans for proper sanitation, policing, and bringing the community together with town hall meetings. Then the list of names - who are they, what do their entries mean - the significance of Penny is interesting though ... everything gets a bit All Work And No Play Makes Jack A Dull Boy after that point - was this the stick that broke the camel's back?

* The chance to mourn - in the now fast-moving world of The Walking Dead, I think it's important that, particularly when it's someone the group cares about, that we get a chance to see our gang taking the time to mourn them. The dead are an ever-present threat, but the walkers were also people once.

* Driving the wedge between Andrea and Michonne - this had to happen, and it was good to see that Michonne finally opened up her gob a bit more and Andrea demanded more information as to why Woodbury is such a bad place in the eyes of the katana-wielding one. Michonne makes herself appear to be a conspiracy nut, a paranoid sort who refuses to play well with others. This pushes Andrea away from her, and closer to the folks of Woodbury. It's a severence that doesn't come easily, but Andrea has been hypnotised by the possibilities on offer here. We viewers may know the dark side of Woodbury, but Andrea hasn't specifically seen or experienced anything to really make her feel properly uneasy.

* Good to see Rick's darkest side coming out. It's strange to look back at that Deputy Sheriff chatting with his best friend Shane in that police car in the very first episode - how far he has come. This will be fascinating to see how it plays out.

* Rounding up walkers - a rather nifty trap. A machine generates noise to draw the walkers into various pits, in which are cargo nets. Milton's biter-proof sleeves are a nifty invention too - someone should tell the prison dwellers about that, I've never felt so uneasy around so many bared arms before!

* Daryl's at his best when he's got a mission to dive into. Finding baby supplies in a nursery proved to be a tense sequence, but it was also filled with sorrow-filled echoes of a world now long gone. It's not just adults suffering from the apocalypse, but millions of children will have also perished. It's a dark thought indeed.

* Daryl's tender side - we've seen hints of it before, but it was great to really see it unveiled more fully here. Feeding "little asskicker", and then placing a Cherokee Rose upon Carol's empty grave (her body hasn't been found, but they're all assuming she's dead - I don't think it's that clear-cut), showed us the sweet and gooey centre underneath the harsh exterior of everyone's favourite redneck. Another tug of the heart strings came when Carl listed off possible names for his new little sister - all of the names of every single female member of their group that they've lost along the way. That roll call really packs a punch.

* Feasting - one thing that did confuse me a little was (providing it hadn't been removed and buried) how seemingly every single shred of Lori's body had been eaten by one walker (replete with distended gut). What about the bones? That felt a little off, even if it would have been rather harsh to see only some of Lori's body left behind (like with T-Dog) ... although I had been wishing for a scene where Rick gets to say goodbye to his, albeit dead, wife. Mind you, with his sanity on the brink, it wouldn't have quite fitted in, and would have got in the way of the cliffhanger. Also, was he trying to hack open the zombie to find bits of his wife - perhaps her wedding ring? Or was it merely him taking out his frustration - there's a few ways this whole scene could be interpreted, I guess - Nicotero has said the body was dragged away (although, why would a zombie bother?), so that's probably to spare the viewer from seeing Lori's mangled corpse - so perhaps an amount of corpse, similar to T-Dog, has been left behind elsewhere in the room.

* Let the games begin - good to see the sick form of entertainment witnessed in the comics. Like all the best towns on American television, there's a dark heart hidden behind the facade. Their version of bare knuckle boxing, with the added danger of walkers (with their teeth removed), gives Merle the chance to be the top man. This reversion of a form of gladitorial combat gives us a taste of a Mad Max-like post apocalypse.

BEST GORE MOMENT:

There were plenty of decapitations and split heads on offer, but a little dose of zombie dentistry proved to be a memorable moment from the folks at KNB. I think the walker's eyes following the pliers really helped sell the moment.

BEST TWIST ON THE COMICS:

Not a lot in this respect in this particular episode, but judging by the preview for the next episode, might we be seeing Andrea seduced by the darker side of Woodbury? The gladitorial side of things was immediately offensive to our group, but are we going to see a strange flirtation with horrible things here?

THE CLIFFHANGER:

Having said nothing for the entire episode in a confused and angry state, Rick hears the ringing of a telephone. "Hello?" - fans of the comic will recognise this plot thread, which came at perhaps Rick's lowest ever point. It'll be interesting to see how they handle this in the show.

And onwards...


Ok, so i'm the only person, who thought "TWO MEN ENTER... ONE MAN LEAVE!"? seriously?

Alright!

One more thing, is there any way back for Rick now or can we assume that Daryl is now the de-facto leader?

Rick will definitely find a way back, but we're in an interlude now - he's gone temporarily barmy for a spell. :elol:



Michonne letting the Governor live even after reading his notebook, looking in the special room and finding the Gladiator Pit.

She never got a chance to look in the room. She heard movement inside, but never got the chance to look inside as she was interrupted.

[bassman]

* The glimpse inside The Governor's notebook was an interesting insight. Crime in Woodbury is apparently up 20%, the price of food is up 40% (but with hopes they can decrease it 20% over the next year), and there are plans for proper sanitation, policing, and bringing the community together with town hall meetings. Then the list of names - who are they, what do their entries mean - the significance of Penny is interesting though ... everything gets a bit All Work And No Play Makes Jack A Dull Boy after that point - was this the stick that broke the camel's back?

You seem to have read a lot more of the notebook than I did(never noticed the percentages and such), but I was under the impression that the list of names were people they had lost. When Penny died, that's when he fully snapped.

[Wyldwraith]

This was the first episode of the season I didn't really feel hit "It" on all cylinders,
The Woodbury stuff continues to fail to be the compelling seduction of Andrea it's trying to be, the Michonne/Andrea split felt less momentous than two adults who survived on their own together for most of a year and more melodramatic like two B.F.Fs giving each other the silent treatment.

The stuff with Maggie and Daryl searching for baby formulae/other supplies came closest to the level of the previous episodes IMO, but between the weird ambiguity about Lori's remains and Rick's irrational and partially inexplicable gut-stabbing of bloated-Walker, this episode just didn't grip me the way all the other episodes this season have. And C'MON, Daryl can mount a fanatical days-long search for Sophia but NO ONE has even SPECULATED ALOUD that no remains MIGHT = Carol not dead? WTH?? Then that made an otherwise touching scene of Daryl at Carol's empty grave into a frustrating scene, at least for me.

The "staged gladiator combat" at Woodbury didn't even COME CLOSE to being the Thunderdome fight scene. Sorry, just don't see the parallel here. You had Merle playing the part of a fake-ass professional wrestler using an extra and harmless zombies as props. I don't know what exactly this scene was supposed to communicate to the audience, but that's literally all I got from the scene itself. Andrea's mild disagreement over what she was seeing with the Governor was vastly more compelling, and that just doesn't seem like the way such a scene should go.

I dunno, maybe if they'd let the Walkers actually grab Merle and the other guy with some firmness instead of half-assed flailing it might've gotten it across...honestly can't say.

All in all, I consider it a poor episode, but since it is ALONE in being a poor episode I'm MORE than willing to give all involved with the creating of TWD a pass on this week's offering. And no, it wasn't a lack of intensity or high-emotion moments coloring my judgment. I just honestly didn't connect with Rick's rampage the way I did with his initial breakdown, or with Carl's recitation of all the women who've died in their groups names as potential names for his sister, versus that cold stare after shooting his mother and stalking past Maggie....

After all, it's television. The greatest series of all time will STILL have flop episodes. TWD is no different, and the (VERY) occasional flop won't do much to drag down the show IMO.

My .02, as always your mileage may vary.

[bassman]

Although it's still a bit of a stretch that one walker ate Lori's entire body(I'm just going to assume others helped and walked off), I did think having the bones sticking out from the walkers body was a nice touch. At least they KINDA showed what happened to every last bit of her body.

I keep reading all these crackpot theories around the net how Carol may have sewed up Lori and they ran away, Lori is a walker, etc. She's dead. Plain and simple.

[Wyldwraith]

@bassman:
Agreed. The wild speculation concerning Lori is just ridiculous. Maggie spelled out Lori's death sentence when she needed Carl to apply direct pressure on the vein she knew she'd severed in the gut. No amount of half-assed rudimentary stitching up of Lori's belly was going to save her. Just for her to have a CHANCE you'd need someone with practice at locating and tying off and/or a means of cauterizing the severed vein. Materials to pack Lori with, IV antibiotics....no..she wouldn't have even made it that far. Even if Carol had swooped in five seconds after Carl & Maggie exited, the wild speculation still relies on the fact that Carl DID shoot Lori but such speculators want to twist a less-is-more scene into something it's not.

Now the Carol being alive speculation is something that even next week's previews seemed to support that theory, with Daryl discovering Carol's knife somewhere seemingly indicative of her not having died in the prison. Which is exactly the question they seem to want us to be asking ourselves. Personally I think it was a mistake to turn Carol's survival/death into a mystery instead of tying it definitively then and there to T-Dog's sacrifice, but I'm willing to sit back and wait and see how they handle it. Who knows, it may be just the springboard needed to push Daryl into a more prominent/proactive position. Rick certainly isn't going to be calm, composed and seeing to his responsibilities anytime soon. Understandable, but I wish they'd kept going in the crushing regret direction of his reaction instead of going into feral fury almost instantly thereafter. Not saying it didn't make for some cool scenes, just that a bit more buildup to the explosion/meltdown/rageout woulda been appreciated.

Just thought I'd chime in with my agreement.

[AcesandEights]

Pleasantly surprised I made it into the thread this week before anyone referred to a woman on the show as a whore...that hardly ever happens anymore.

Decent episode for a reset, but I agree it was somewhat muddled. Nice to have an episode where they don't lean so heavily on action and the shock of loss to carry the length of the running time, but they need to look at these episodes as not just component parts of a seasonal arc.

[krisvds]

Enjoyed the episode. Season 3 is a winner thus far IMO.
Still some annoyances as well: why not search for Carol, or at the very least mention her name at least once? Seems weird after all the trouble the group went through searching for Sophia last season they are willing to give up on one of their own so easily...

I am really starting to dislike the way Michonne is written and being portrayed in the tv series. A lot of her actions don't make much sense. Her standing in the middle of the street looking up at the Governor's window with that agressive 'I know something is going on up there' stare felt a bit ridiculous. If you are that paranoid why show it so openly? Wouldn't you try to hide your suspicions a bit more in order not to raise attention to your way too obvious spying around?
Same with the CGI hacking up of the walkers... Felt like a silly 'let's have some samurai action' moment. The Michonne I know from the comic was impulsive as well but never that dumb.

And why the hell isn't she trying to convince Andrea a bit more? Speaking of Andrea; her character is all over the place as well. From depressed and having given up on trying to survive to hardened sharpshooter and survivor to this? She is a bit thick at the moment no? Her friendship with Michonne and the whole investigating Woodbury could have been handled a whole lot better.

Still; the governor's creepiness is really done well. Great, subtle acting. Morrissey is saving the Woodbury scenes for me.

The deconstruction of the sheriff is also very well done IMO. What a great actor. Can't wait for THAT phonecall!

[Neil]

Four continuities/issues bugged me?

1) When Michonne chopped up the 'entertainment', at least one she sliced down from the shoulder to the waste, but no signs of it still moving afterwards. Also, she didn't seem the slightest bit interested in putting them out of the their misery as most would simply be heads sitting their still animated on the ground. Surely she would have just gone around head putting her sword in it?

2) When Rick shot the zombie in the mouth, the gun was at best level if not pointing down... How would then destroy the brain? Guess the blast might have? Why not just point the gun up!?

3) As already mentioned? Everyone forget about Carol?

4) Little confused by Lori's body? So Carl hadn't shot her? So the body had animated and wondered off? And the zombie nearby? Confused!?!


EDIT: See (4) has been discussed. The idea she was consumed is just daft! There would be boned etc at least? Or are we assuming all this was dragged off? I think just a bloody messy skull, a upper torso (rib cage + mess) would have been better in the scene!

[Andy]

I Dont understand the confusion over lori's body?

As soon as i saw it was missing i took it that carl either missed or couldnt bring himself to shoot her in the head and shes crawling around somewhere..

Of course the idea that the entire body (bones and all) is consumed is totally ridicilous, im suprised some of you guys could even think that?

[Neil]

I Dont understand the confusion over lori's body?

As soon as i saw it was missing i took it that carl either missed or couldnt bring himself to shoot her in the head and shes crawling around somewhere..

Of course the idea that the entire body (bones and all) is consumed is totally ridicilous, im suprised some of you guys could even think that?

That's what I half understood, but it seems Mr Nicotero doesn't agree with you/us. On the previous page (of the thread - #19) it seems the body has been consumed, hence Rick taking his anger out on the belly of that zombie?!?

[MinionZombie]

Knocked up some memes for this episode, enjoy:

http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/11/rick-psycho-dad-edition-walking-dead.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2LN1qzzCiz0/UKIoqOE9mDI/AAAAAAAAA-s/X_iC7lzQlko/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Psycho_Dad_Rick_2_D eadShed_FINAL.jpg

This one's wide, so either scroll sideways, or perhaps it'd be easier to view it separately here:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1usSziIrk7Q/UKIo5b0RvAI/AAAAAAAAA-0/U8mwhnG5vc4/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Psycho_Dad_Rick_1_D eadShed.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1usSziIrk7Q/UKIo5b0RvAI/AAAAAAAAA-0/U8mwhnG5vc4/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Psycho_Dad_Rick_1_D eadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-jVEUc3UDLEc/UKIpGM8uftI/AAAAAAAAA-8/lDepW6RKStM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Zombie_Trouser_Bone r_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JzsczOWX3eA/UKIpPkpRMVI/AAAAAAAAA_E/lVkaYuC6n2w/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Merle_Entertained_D eadShed.jpg

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Now onto some chit-chat:


You seem to have read a lot more of the notebook than I did(never noticed the percentages and such), but I was under the impression that the list of names were people they had lost. When Penny died, that's when he fully snapped.

I freeze-framed. Not in HD, so I couldn't see everything, but I made out what I could. Yeah ... I'm a bit obsessive. :D

Good call on the list though, I hadn't quite twigged on that - that definitely makes a lot of sense. Good spot. :)


Now the Carol being alive speculation is something that even next week's previews seemed to support that theory, with Daryl discovering Carol's knife somewhere seemingly indicative of her not having died in the prison. Which is exactly the question they seem to want us to be asking ourselves. Personally I think it was a mistake to turn Carol's survival/death into a mystery instead of tying it definitively then and there to T-Dog's sacrifice, but I'm willing to sit back and wait and see how they handle it. Who knows, it may be just the springboard needed to push Daryl into a more prominent/proactive position. Rick certainly isn't going to be calm, composed and seeing to his responsibilities anytime soon. Understandable, but I wish they'd kept going in the crushing regret direction of his reaction instead of going into feral fury almost instantly thereafter. Not saying it didn't make for some cool scenes, just that a bit more buildup to the explosion/meltdown/rageout woulda been appreciated.

It does feel weird that nobody really searched for her body - a bit of a plot hole there (the episode had a few of them) - I can definitely see Daryl being pushed more front-and-centre at the moment though. As they've said, Daryl is happy being #2 and not in charge, but here he has to take the lead, we saw it in him taking on the search for baby supplies, and then he full-on took hold of l'il asskicker and fed her, so maybe he's going to pushed centre stage and see how he deals with it.

I'm assuming that Carol's grave is just for show - they took some dirt and created a mound on top of the grass ... however, Glenn did order Axel and Oscar to dig "two more" after he'd already done one ... so again, another plot hole. However, yes, I'd say Carol's grave is for show only.

I'm wondering if Carol's getting a bit of a trial-by-fire herself, kind of like Andrea got when she was accidentally left behind ... might we see Carol becoming more of a warrior woman? Might she become Daryl's right hand woman? We never saw Andrew's body and he turned up again - we've not seen Carol's body, so she's going to turn up. It could be that she's trapped somewhere in the prison, or has barricaded herself in somewhere (a cell, possibly).


Pleasantly surprised I made it into the thread this week before anyone referred to a woman on the show as a whore...that hardly ever happens anymore.

Decent episode for a reset, but I agree it was somewhat muddled. Nice to have an episode where they don't lean so heavily on action and the shock of loss to carry the length of the running time, but they need to look at these episodes as not just component parts of a seasonal arc.

1) Aye - there's some rather questionable comments on occasion relating to certain female characters here.

2) Watched the 'after show' bonus segment for The Talking Dead on YouTube last night and Nicotero spoke of several deleted scenes. One where we see a walker shuffling through a field, and then falling out of view (into a trap), another where Maggie breaks down and tells Daryl what happened, and then realising that Daryl's "lost" Carol too, and they have a moment, and there was at least one more which showed Michonne further exploring The Governor's flat (looking at the books he's reading etc) - so that would explain some of the apparent lack in connective tissue here and there, however none of those explain any of the little plot holes where greater attention needed to be paid to the details.

Indeed, this does raise a concern that they're cramming too much into each episode. Yes, we don't want low-content episodes like the front-seven of season 2, but we also need enough time to process what's going on.


Four continuities/issues bugged me?

1) When Michonne chopped up the 'entertainment', at least one she sliced down from the shoulder to the waste, but no signs of it still moving afterwards. Also, she didn't seem the slightest bit interested in putting them out of the their misery as most would simply be heads sitting their still animated on the ground. Surely she would have just gone around head putting her sword in it?

2) When Rick shot the zombie in the mouth, the gun was at best level if not pointing down... How would then destroy the brain? Guess the blast might have? Why not just point the gun up!?

3) As already mentioned? Everyone forget about Carol?

4) Little confused by Lori's body? So Carl hadn't shot her? So the body had animated and wondered off? And the zombie nearby? Confused!?!


EDIT: See (4) has been discussed. The idea she was consumed is just daft! There would be boned etc at least? Or are we assuming all this was dragged off? I think just a bloody messy skull, a upper torso (rib cage + mess) would have been better in the scene!

1) Michonne didn't bother killing the heads of the three walkers she took on in the first episode in that shop, so it would stand to reason that she's only taking out the immediate threat of the other walkers - deactivating them relatively speaking - just in terms of messing up Woodbury's little experiement/entertainment/whatever-it-appears-to-be-to-her-at-the-time. However, aye, it's one of those little plot holes that seemed to crop up a few times in this episode.

2) I thought about that too, the angle was off. No doubt just a mistake on-set and they didn't have time to re-shoot it (IIRC the blood gush was practical), and with only 8 days to shoot each episode, they've gotta move on and let a little detail like that go ... but yeah, a bit off. Perhaps there was some ricochet or whatever, but yeah...

3) It is slightly strange, isn't it? I think everyone's just assuming, and being that T-Dog was barely recognisable, they're assuming the same for Carol ... but again, it feels a bit odd - perhaps there was an explanation that was lost in a deleted scene? There seems to have been numerous moments that were cut-for-time. :confused:

4) As explained somewhere earlier in the thread, Nicotero explained that the dead body had been dragged elsewhere by that walker and consumed - now, I'm assuming that, similar to T-Dog, there's part of a carcass somewhere (which was possibly removed by the others for burial), but we don't see it, so it is a rather confusing telling of that issue. It doesn't read in an entirely sensible manner. The walker might be utterly bloated, but it can't consume an entire human being - you certainly can't eat all the bones FFS! Plus - why would a walker bother to drag a body away? They eat where they find it, there's no 10-second-rule for zombies. :p

[babomb]

Personally, I think it's very possible that for whatever reason, AMC just wouldn't allow them to show a partially devoured woman that just gave birth. Maybe they felt it would turn their female viewers off too much. It wouldn't be the 1st time that the censors made a judgement call that doesn't seem to make complete sense. So the bloated walker and the blood trail were the best way to deal with that scene to keep the rest of it continuous while still complying with the censors. You have to consider too that when walkers eat people they continue to eat them after the heart stops and the brain dies. Lori had just been killed so there's really no difference between such a fresh kill and a live human that dies while being eaten. I would assume that walkers are attracted to the warm flesh. But maybe not even so much warm flesh because the deer that Andrew used to lure the walkers into the prison didn't look that fresh.
Which brings up another strange aspect. How in the hell would Andrew ever have even killed that deer? He didn't have a range weapon. He had a fucking fire axe! So are we to assume that a dude who was presumably in prison for quite some time(there were comments alluding to the idea that Andrew was in there for murder) knows how to make traps out of very primitive materials that are capable of trapping deer in such a timely manner? Seems highly unlikely. Even less likely is the idea that he somehow stalked the deer and killed it with the axe. I can't remember offhand if it was a buck or a doe. A buck will fight if cornered, and doe are alot more cautious and more difficult to trap. The only possible way I could see him pulling this off would be to dig a pit and put a cover over it with a salt block in the center. Deer eat small young sappling plants mainly, and they're suckers for the salt blocks. But where would Andrew get a salt block, and how likely is it that he would know to use one? And unless he used scent blocker, it would've been some time before a deer approached that salt block. He seemed like a city thug, not some backwater homeboy that knows alot about hunting and trapping.
Daryl tracked that buck for miles in season 1, and as we all know he's a very skilled hunter and tracker. But here's Andrew taking down an adult deer in place, with nothing but a fire axe?

[krisvds]

Maybe that deer was already dead when he found it? Died of old age or a heart attack so to speak.

[facestabber]

Ricks 'sheriff' gun bag in the gov's office. I don't think it's been brought up and I almost forgot about it. At first I thought that should have no attention to michonne but she did find Andrea with it. I guess if it was controversial for michonne she probably would have spoke up to Andrea.

[babomb]

Maybe that deer was already dead when he found it? Died of old age or a heart attack so to speak.
I thought about that. It didn't look that old though, I'd say maybe it was dead a week if that. It could also have just looked like that since it was likely a stuffed deer and not a real dead one. And if it was that old, would walkers still go after it like that? If it was just laying around dead in the prison yard, you'd think walkers would've already got to it.

- - - Updated - - -


Ricks 'sheriff' gun bag in the gov's office. I don't think it's been brought up and I almost forgot about it. At first I thought that should have no attention to michonne but she did find Andrea with it. I guess if it was controversial for michonne she probably would have spoke up to Andrea. Forgot about that. I think she was about to grab it when she heard the footsteps coming. It might play a role coming up. Like maybe the gov forces himself on Andrea in his quarters, and she takes the opportunity to grab it before she takes off? A little role reversal there from the comics.

[shootemindehead]

Not a bad episode, but the pace has inevitably slowed a little. It was was more of a bridging episode anyway, so it can be forgiven.

However, there were some miss-steps in there, which have all been mention.

Have to say though, I'm getting tired of Michonne. The character is just too much on the stupid side to be enjoyable. And the samurai nerd wank is ridiculous. Andrea may be a stupid cow and fierce annoying, but at least she's a fairly realistic character. The other one is just silly.

Good to see Mozzer Governor get weirder. I wasn't sure if he would pull it of, but he's doing a good job.

Rick's gone mental! However, I can't believe that the producers have gone down the phone route already?

As for the Lori happy meal, I am just going to assume that other zombies pulled the rest of the carcass away.

[MinionZombie]

Well the phone plotline in the comics was linked to Lori's death, so it's natural - now that Lori's joined the TWD roll call in the sky - that this plotline would enter the TV show.

Definitely looking forward to seeing more of mentally imbalanced Rick. It's also good that they're taking elements from 'slower' portions of the comics that, generally, might not translate so well into multiple television episodes, and combining them in the current show in the right places.

It's definitely good, too, that this episode gave us a bit of a breather. You do have to bridge gaps, but you also need to have peaks and troughs. 3x04 wouldn't have been as crazy if 3x02 and 3x03 particularly hadn't been, relatively, more sedate (albeit with actiony bits - actually 3x02 had its fair share).

babomb makes a good point - we're all hardened horror heads, but the audience for the show is far wider in terms of taste. Indeed, I'm surprised - in a way - that it's still so popular with such gruesome gory moments happening all the time (gas mask zombie, for instance) ... Lori's death was extremely painful, and extremely sad, so it'd be a step too far to show her mangled corpse. We could stomach it, but it might be too much for other folks - and really, it's not necessary to show the mangled corpse ... now, if she'd never been eaten, it would have been nice to have a scene between Lincoln and a playing-dead Callies, but equally that would have been a bit grim as she'd be there with her belly sliced open, placenta slop all over the floor, not to mention her face all blown in from a bullet. It's a bit much really ... the only problem was that it wasn't telegraphed well enough to not make that whole scene a bit confusing - it's only through discussion here, with words from Nicotero after the fact that we've figured out a likely explanation.

Nicotero does a good job directing, but he definitely needs to pay stricter attention to various small details - "Cold Storage" had a few moments like that (the sudden appearance of a bunch of zombies after those guys were making so much noise walking down that alleyway, for instance) - so that's definitely an area for improvement for some folks working on TWD.

Over-the-piece, these are relatively small issues - sometimes we do lose sight of just how much they get right on this show. How many shows do you watch that don't inspire anywhere near as much passion in you? A fair few, no doubt, you enjoy them, but they don't have the same impact or ability to inspire as much discussion or obsession. They get a lot of things right with TWD ... a couple of folks have big problems with certain parts (or characters), but well, that's always going to be the case.

[bassman]

My apologies if it's been mentioned and I overlooked it, but did nobody else mention that one of the zombies in the arena scene was Stephen/Flyboy? I noticed he was very similar, but wasn't quite sure. I just saw an interview with Nicotero where he confirms it. Apparently one of the heads in The Governor's fish tank was also Ben Gardner's head from Jaws. I missed that one....


EDIT: Ha....there's Gardner's head. Top left fish tank, head on the right. Can't believe I missed that now that I see it...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121029142604/walkingdead/images/c/cb/Walkersmany.jpg

[MinionZombie]

My apologies if it's been mentioned and I overlooked it, but did nobody else mention that one of the zombies in the arena scene was Stephen/Flyboy? I noticed he was very similar, but wasn't quite sure. I just saw an interview with Nicotero where he confirms it. Apparently one of the heads in The Governor's fish tank was also Ben Gardner's head from Jaws. I missed that one....


EDIT: Ha....there's Gardner's head. Top left fish tank, head on the right. Can't believe I missed that now that I see it...

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121029142604/walkingdead/images/c/cb/Walkersmany.jpg

THX mentioned a Jaws reference, in a teasing way, a little while ago and I didn't notice it - well, I assumed that it'd be to do with the fish tanks and the heads, and I was looking for Ben Gardner's noggin, but didn't particularly notice it, but now you point it out specifically, yeah I had wondered if that was the one.

As for Flyboy zombie - I assume it's the little-seen one in the brown trousers and white shirt - we barely got a look at him, and as such the resemblance isn't really there to see. I think I recall Nicotero saying in an interview that they had to pretty much cut the Dawn reference from this episode, but that they were able to put a much better version of the reference into a later episode (3x15, I'm assuming) ... only time will tell. :)

[AcesandEights]

did nobody else mention that one of the zombies in the arena scene was Stephen/Flyboy? I noticed he was very similar, but wasn't quite sure. I just saw an interview with Nicotero where he confirms it. Apparently one of the heads in The Governor's fish tank was also Ben Gardner's head from Jaws.

Thanks for pointing out both details, Bassman, I was unaware. Very cool!

[Moon Knight]

Ahhhhh there's the Jaws reference lol can't believe I missed it.

[thxleo]

THX mentioned a Jaws reference, in a teasing way, a little while ago and I didn't notice it - well, I assumed that it'd be to do with the fish tanks and the heads, and I was looking for Ben Gardner's noggin, but didn't particularly notice it, but now you point it out specifically, yeah I had wondered if that was the one.

As for Flyboy zombie - I assume it's the little-seen one in the brown trousers and white shirt - we barely got a look at him, and as such the resemblance isn't really there to see. I think I recall Nicotero saying in an interview that they had to pretty much cut the Dawn reference from this episode, but that they were able to put a much better version of the reference into a later episode (3x15, I'm assuming) ... only time will tell. :)

MinionZombie, the makeup redo that Greg has done for episode 315 of the other DAWN zombie cameo is definitely noticeable. I've seen a photo of the makeup and it's awesome...and very iconic. ;)

[Moon Knight]

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2302455552/tt1520211

Maybe this guy?

[Andy]

My crappy homemade meme but hey, it made me chuckle :)

Oh btw, rick going batshit crazy? YEAH I CALLED IT!

[krisvds]

http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2302455552/tt1520211

Maybe this guy?

Glad I'm not the only one who thought of Dawn when seeing that zombie.

EDIT: Just saw it confirmed by Bassman the previous page. Yep, that's flyboy. Never noticed the Jaws reference either. I mut have seen that film a thousand times! lol

[JonOfTheShred]

Glad I'm not the only one who thought of Dawn when seeing that zombie.

EDIT: Just saw it confirmed by Bassman the previous page. Yep, that's flyboy. Never noticed the Jaws reference either. I mut have seen that film a thousand times! lol

HOLY F*CK. I figured I was hallucinating when I thought I saw Flyboy on the Walking Dead. I'm not (as) crazy (as I thought)!

[MinionZombie]

MinionZombie, the makeup redo that Greg has done for episode 315 of the other DAWN zombie cameo is definitely noticeable. I've seen a photo of the makeup and it's awesome...and very iconic. ;)

Sounds good to me ... so many iconic zombies in Dawn, I have a couple of possibilities in mind. Can't wait to see what it'll be when the episode rolls around. :hyper:


http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2302455552/tt1520211

Maybe this guy?

Yep - that's Flyboy alright. Shame we didn't get a better look at him in the episode itself. Saved that picture for posterity. :)

[AcesandEights]

Really one of the cooler homages I've seen done in good long awhile.

[bassman]

I wonder if the extra playing Stephen had any idea what kind of iconic character he was portraying. Surely Nicotero and the make up crew told him, though. Hopefully he was a fan. That shouldn't go to any ol' extra. :lol:

[ProfessorChaos]

totally missed the "son of flyboy" walker. perhaps they should've made a bit more effort to give him a little more screen time.i've only watched the episode once, but i don't recall seeing him at all....

then again, that was kind of a chaotic scene with merle and his sparring partner fighting inside a circle of walkers with a large and boisterous crowd cheering them on while skynyrd was blaring at full volume. i think if i was calling the shots around the set, walkers that are meant to be recognized by diehards would have their own scene where they were not surrounded by a bunch of distracting bullshit.

[Moon Knight]

totally missed the "son of flyboy" walker. perhaps they should've made a bit more effort to give him a little more screen time.i've only watched the episode once, but i don't recall seeing him at all....

then again, that was kind of a chaotic scene with merle and his sparring partner fighting inside a circle of walkers with a large and boisterous crowd cheering them on while skynyrd was blaring at full volume. i think if i was calling the shots around the set, walkers that are meant to be recognized by diehards would have their own scene where they were not surrounded by a bunch of distracting bullshit.

After watching again, they never really did give it it's proper screen time. You can see it on the top right corner of the zombie squared circle.

[Neil]

After watching again, they never really did give it it's proper screen time. You can see it on the top right corner of the zombie squared circle.

After watching it again, did the Lori scene make anymore sense? That scene felt messy and didn't quite explain itself very well IMHO!

[bassman]

After watching again, they never really did give it it's proper screen time. You can see it on the top right corner of the zombie squared circle.

If I remember correctly, Merle also rubs his hand on it's head when he's showing off to the crowd...

Neil - I felt the Lori scene was a bit more clear on a second viewing. I never understood why people were jumping to conclusions that she was alive, but my second viewing pointed out some things I hadn't noticed the first time around. Her shirt/vest is lying in the trail of blood, the walker has locks of her hair, etc. Lori is definitely dead. I'm not sure why tons of people across the net are insisting otherwise...

[Neil]

Neil - I felt the Lori scene was a bit more clear on a second viewing. I never understood why people were jumping to conclusions that she was alive, but my second viewing pointed out some things I hadn't noticed the first time around. Her shirt/vest is lying in the trail of blood, the walker has locks of her hair, etc. Lori is definitely dead. I'm not sure why tons of people across the net are insisting otherwise...

I got half an impression she was a walker:-
1) We didn't see the head shot itself, as if maybe for this very reason.
2) There was literally NOTHING of her body left, as if it had walked off!
3) I certainly didn't get the impression every last piece of it had been eaten or (for some odd reason) carried away. Which frankly didn't make much sense IMHO.

[MinionZombie]

I got half an impression she was a walker:-
1) We didn't see the head shot itself, as if maybe for this very reason.
2) There was literally NOTHING of her body left, as if it had walked off!
3) I certainly didn't get the impression every last piece of it had been eaten or (for some odd reason) carried away. Which frankly didn't make much sense IMHO.

1) After the harrowing scene, they wouldn't go so far as to show Lori's head getting blown apart by a bullet, cast down upon her dead cranium by her own traumatised son - it'd be going a bit far, and really, is entirely unnecessary. The sound and the look on Maggie's face (then Carl's) is far more effective.

2 & 3) All down to the problematic translation of the 'zombie dragging the body elsewhere to eat it' theory that Nicotero himself posited on The Talking Dead. Lori's dead, she was shot in the head, her body was dragged away (no doubt to avoid pulling in Callies to just lie on a floor, as well as subjecting less hardened viewers from the sight of her mangled corpse - even T-Dog's remains were fairly obscured from view), and was either totally consumed (bollocks - what about the bones?) or was partially devoured and the rest is behind a stack of boiler room stuff out-of-sight.

Now - if there were remains, were they removed? If so, how come nobody saw the bloated walker sitting right there with it's massive trouser boner?

However, if no remains were buried, why did they dig three graves? You have T-Dog's remains, yes, so that's one - but you don't need to dig two more graves (in the event of there being no remains for Lori, and Carol being only missing-and-presumed-dead).

Yeah ... there's some script and directorial plotholes in this episode alright. It's still a good episode, but there's so many small details that are left hanging here - none of the previous episodes so far this season have had this sort of forgetfulness.

[bassman]

I keep hearing the "we didn't see the headshot" argument around the net. We also didn't see Dale's, but nobody assumes he's stil wandering around the farm with a hole in his gut....

[Moon Knight]

I read an interview with Nicotero stating that they already saw T-Dog's corpse and they didn't need to show Lori's. He even went as far as saying that they do have some limits on how far they can go.

I do agree tho, some stuff was handled poorly.

[krisvds]

I keep hearing the "we didn't see the headshot" argument around the net. We also didn't see Dale's, but nobody assumes he's stil wandering around the farm with a hole in his gut....

True. On the other hand we saw our group witnessing the Dale headshot and how they reacted to that. Lori got shot with no one around, hence all the theories. Silly though they may be I agree with the view it coud have been handled better. Had Rick found her half eaten corpse it would have been stronger: no need to actually show it, just his reaction and him going of the deep end like he did in the episode that was shot would have been better and put a stop to all these silly theories.

It's not the first time the Talking Dead had to explain to fans what actually happened in the series. When a talkshow has to step in to do that you must be doing something wrong. That or there are some thick fans out there of course.

[Wyldwraith]

Simple fix if they wanted to stay symbolic,
Have Rick find Lori's wedding ring. Would've fairly conclusively proven she was devoured, as a Walker would still be wearing it, and how likely is it a zombie would bite through finger bones rather than just gnaw on them like say, chicken wings? Would've given the scene an air of finality + dispelled the (now clearly unintentional) sense of ambiguity created by needing to censor Lori's remains. Hell, if they were going to go to all the trouble of having Rick dig around in Bloated Trouser-Snake Walker (tm), why not have him root around in there until he came across the ring? A round piece of metal certainly has a VASTLY different and immediately apparent tactile property than any blood, guts, flesh or even bone. Plus, it would've given that ungainly scene a reason for existing. As it was, I was like "Herschel can get bear-trapped for putting his leg in the wrong place, but Rick seems able to stroll up to semi-inactive Walkers with impunity and terminate them at his convenience."

I don't think anyone is suggesting a full-corpse-reveal of Lori's disemboweled and cannibalized remains was the only means of removing the ambiguity that haunts the scene when Rick reaches the spot where Lori had been laying. For me, Carl's expression was something I was willing to take to the bank that he eyes-wide-open put a round square between his mother's eyes and MADE DAMNED SURE she wasn't going to turn. That was his stated focus, and everything from his tone, to his body language, and then finally his distant cold-eyed expression indicated he did in fact do the deed. Had he half-assed it, like pointed the gun towards her head's general direction and pulled the trigger, it a) Would've removed the entire meaning behind the flashback to Rick's speech about everyone was going to die, and that there's no way to prepare yourself for it, given back on the farm...and b) Wouldn't have left Carl with that eyes-that-have-seen-too-much look. Carl SAW his mother's brains painted all over the floor and wall. Like everyone else here I don't get what was ambiguous in that very moving and intense culmination of an already-intense scene. The ambiguity doesn't appear in any meaningful way until the next episode when Rick goes on a Walker killing spree and runs out of gas by the Walker that ate Lori's remains (the consumable parts, anyways).

The 3 graves thing is a good catch. If you don't HAVE Lori's remains, and nothing of Carol besides her head-kerchief, why dig two more six-feet-deep holes. Something getting lost in editing is clearly the problem here, because Glenn was so matter-of-fact in stating they needed two more graves just like the first.

Finally, and again, had they not tried to half-ass a mystery out of Carol's fate, ESPECIALLY when they intend to introduce evidence in the VERY NEXT EPISODE of Carol at least having not died anywhere near where Daryl found her head-kerchief...then it wouldn't have piled still more ambiguity into an already-hazy scene. Having had time to digest it, and with repeated viewings, I'm adamant IMO that the Carol-mystery was simply a bad call, without redeeming characteristics and at least two compelling reasons NOT TO DO IT! No weird fan theories fueled by said ambiguity, requiring the Talking Dead interview with the man himself to dispel, and as I said before it takes away from the meaning of T-Dog's hardcore sacrifice. (Yes, some might say since he was already bitten then what he did with the two Walkers that ultimately consumed him wasn't a huge sacrifice. To which I respond, T-Dog only had to die as a consequence of being bitten. He DIDN'T have to be eaten alive a mouthful at a time like he was. He knew that's what would happen to him when he grabbed those Walkers to block for Carol, and thus deserves his heroism kudos. There's that old saying, I'll paraphrase: No greater love may a man show that he lay down his life that his comrades might live. The Zombie Apocalypse Addendum to said saying: "Except allowing yourself to be eaten alive slowly so that a comrade might live."

Plus, and no one's even mentioned this one. Creating the Carol-mystery INEVITABLY divided the audience's available emotions-to-be-impacted. So instead of two sharp definitive losses in T-Dog and Lori (both sharing the theme of deep self-sacrifice), audience reactions were split three ways instead of two. How could that NOT diminish the impact of Lori and T-Dog's deaths? To say nothing of the repetition. First the child, and now the mother? Maybe some, hell maybe most people didn't see a problem with leaving Carol's fate a mystery, but I've done my best here to articulate why I believe it was simply a bad call. Not bad execution, not a misunderstanding of the scripted material. Simply a bad plot element that failed to add to the whole and instead detracted from it. Nothing more, nothing less. Mistakes happen, it's not Doomsday...I just hope they tightened down on these sort of slip-ups as Season 3 progressed. Other than this episode it's been an absolutely amazing season so far, and I hope the subsequent episodes capitalize on that and simply leave this unfortunate goof behind them...well, that and get Michonne to act like a real person instead of a lightsaber-wielding trenchcoater unable to articulate the simplest of disagreements.

[krisvds]

Creating the Carol-mystery INEVITABLY divided the audience's available emotions-to-be-impacted. So instead of two sharp definitive losses in T-Dog and Lori (both sharing the theme of deep self-sacrifice), audience reactions were split three ways instead of two. How could that NOT diminish the impact of Lori and T-Dog's deaths? To say nothing of the repetition. First the child, and now the mother? Maybe some, hell maybe most people didn't see a problem with leaving Carol's fate a mystery, but I've done my best here to articulate why I believe it was simply a bad call. Not bad execution, not a misunderstanding of the scripted material. Simply a bad plot element that failed to add to the whole and instead detracted from it. Nothing more, nothing less. Mistakes happen, it's not Doomsday...I just hope they tightened down on these sort of slip-ups as Season 3 progressed. Other than this episode it's been an absolutely amazing season so far, and I hope the subsequent episodes capitalize on that and simply leave this unfortunate goof behind them...well, that and get Michonne to act like a real person instead of a lightsaber-wielding trenchcoater unable to articulate the simplest of disagreements.

All of the above. Couldn't agree more.
Well put Wyld.

[bassman]

What's funny is that Lori was the most widely hated character on the show and now that she's finally dead like everyone wanted, they don't want to accept it. :p

[Andy]

I Really hope carol is dead, i find her to be the most annoying and generally repulsive character.

[kidgloves]

Someone has transcribed the Governors diary if anyones interested.


Page 1

Respond back to Anthony smith’s email… as soon as
To Do – Find more eggs – Ask John. They gave you the light-bulbs, whiskey
More notes on what to tell the town… they need to stay calm – Power sources, water supply
remember meeting <something> mayor – 9am @ the small <something> place, <something> place around the corner to Mr. H
Today made me wonder if being the governor or being the man in charge makes the people feel like they actually have someone to look up to / feel like they’re being taking care of… something <scribbles> I doubt that <scribbles>
I believe I’m a good leader. Sometimes I just need to relax. I love talking about my town and supporting it just sometimes I just need to find a way to relax… like a bottle of scotch and some classic Sinatra.
Plan for tomorrow… I grew up always being told to be one step ahead. myself .. <something> to never stumble.

Page 2

Sanitation
Garbage trucks for city (Underlined)
check into hospitals – get information on superintendents of sanitation (circled)
Judiciary – finalize the budget for the seconds half of the year. i.e. st. repair – road signs new pavement, etc (underlined or maybe crossed out)
laws cancelled due to primary legislation
Guards – crime has increased 20@. I want my town to be completely crime free.
update police enforcement
new cars?
enforce more public security
Food rationing
Prices on various types of food
increased 40%
HOPES of decreasing at least (circled) 20% of threat inflation within the next year.
Activities – Get ideas form towns people
town meeting to be held every Thursday evening

GOALS TO BE ACCOMPLISHED
tighter community
ideas for future events
Hearings: trial about sanitation laws. Occurs Thursday (circled)

Page 3 – Names

Brian, Bobby, Nick, Alice, Susan, David, Emily, Brandon, Jennifer, Zachary, Alyssa, Drew, Taylor, Melissa, Holly, Johnathan, Richard, Keith, Leah, Elliot, Patrick, Elizabeth, Penny (bold and underlined)

[rongravy]

Ehhhhhh, I don't see how people could get confused on the Lori deal, although I found it hard to believe there was nothing left of her. A found ring would've been better than the bullet. Guess some people need it all spelled out for them.

[Tricky]

Just saw this episode, as with the rest of this season so far I really enjoyed it and there is a huge amount of tension bubbling away there. Rick has gone over the edge, and Daryl is proving to be the man who can really get things done, as well as showing a much softer side to his previous stone cold self, but which brother will survive the inevitable stand off between him & Merle? We all know its coming eventually and don't have the comics to offer a rough guide on what will become of either character...

The Lori corpse thing does seem a bit odd, I can accept that the walker(s) could have stripped her flesh away fairly quickly, but what about the bones? My Staffordshire Bull Terrier with his powerful jaws & sharp teeth has been grinding away at a cows knee joint every day for the past 4 weeks and still hasn't got anywhere near through it, so even with the suspended belief required for a zombie show, it still seems ridiculous that there was nothing left of Lori in such a short space of time but a blood trail and a single zombie with a bloated gut. Something doesn't ring true there, and it would be a far better conclusion for me if later in the season we saw a Lori zombie in a similar badly mauled and almost skeletal state to the bicycle girl one from the season 1 first episode.

*edit - and speaking of homages and guest appearances, I saw Motorhead last week and they were supported by Anthrax, whose guitarist Scott Ian had a cameo as a zombie in TWD season 2 :)
1168

[MinionZombie]

Greg Nicotero has answered some questions regarding this episode:

http://dailydead.com/interview-greg-nicotero-answers-your-questions-about-the-walking-dead-episode-3-05/


What Happened to Carol?: Since Greg Nicotero directed the episode, I thought this would be a great chance to get more details on Carol, Lori, and Daryl. The biggest question we’ve been seeing about this episode is: “What happened to Carol?” In episode 3.04, we see T-Dog save her and she goes outside into the prison courtyard. All they find is a scarf at the end, but we see a grave in 3.05. Did they find her body?

Greg Nicotero: “Well, you know, one of the challenging things about episode four was that she disappears. They find part of her clothing, but they’ve never found her. They’ve never really found Lori’s body; you just see sort of the remnants of the blood drag. So, as far as everyone knows, Carol has suffered the same fate as everyone else, but that will be revealed shortly.”

The cast and crew have talked about the audience knowing more than the characters in the past. This is the case in Woodbury, where we all know that something is wrong with The Governor and the rest of the characters aren’t aware. Obviously, Rick and the group are traumatized by the loss of T-Dog and Lori, and it sounds like they only assumed Carol was eaten.

———

Did the Zombie Eat All of Lori?: Speaking of zombies completely eating bodies, we’ve seen some readers say that the zombie couldn’t have eaten all of Lori, including her bones. However, I’ve been told that she wasn’t completely eaten. We just weren’t shown the body:

Greg Nicotero: ”The idea is supposed to be that the walker has sort of dragged her around the corner of that boiler room. There’s actually a blood trail that continues past the walker and goes around the corner.

Some of the little touches we added was there was bits of hair in its mouth and hair in his hand when it reaches up towards Rick. And it was just one of those things that we really wanted to show that this thing had feasted on her, as horrible as it is.”

He went on to mention that they didn’t want seeing her eaten body to take away from the impact of her death in the previous episode:

Greg Nicotero: ”We didn’t want to take away from [her death]. The interesting thing about T-Dog’s death in episode four was it was really heroic. We really went to great lengths to make sure that his death had meaning and her death also had meaning. It was important to Sarah [Wayne Callies] that the baby survived and was one of the first things that came up when the idea of her death was discussed.

In keeping the emotional resonance of Lori’s death, there are some boundaries. You may not believe it, but there are a few boundaries here and there on The Walking Dead that we want to preserve.”

———

Why Didn’t Daryl Talk More About Carol?: With Daryl and Carol being so close, we were surprised that the episode didn’t spend more time with him discussing her death. So much went on at the Prison and Woodbury this episode, and we discovered that there were extra scenes with Daryl on the cutting room floor:

Greg Nicotero: ”One of the things about this episode is that it’s really dense. There’s so much material to talk about and there was one scene we shot that I love and sadly didn’t make the final cut.

Daryl and Maggie are driving to the daycare and the road is blocked by an overturned tree, so they stop. Maggie starts to break down and Daryl says “was she dead?” Daryl doesn’t know what happened Lori, and Maggie says that she had to cut her open.

Then Maggie looks at Daryl and she says “oh my God, I’m so sorry about Carol” and the look on his face is like he got punched in the stomach. He says that baby gave her so much hope. Carol’s death really pushes Daryl forward, and unfortunately, it’s not in the episode, but hopefully it’ll be on the DVD.”

The fact that they're having to answer these sorts of questions shows that there has been a couple of problems with this episode - trying to cram too much into a single script, deleted scenes holding content that is necessary, problems regarding coverage of scenes to fully inform the viewer, and plot holes (in particular the grave digging).

Traumatised or not, I would have thought someone - at least one - person would wonder "WHERE is Carol's body? What IF she's trapped?" ... it's slightly awkward in a way, but I can let that one go ... the grave digging is still a decided lapse in logic though.

[Buzzbomb]

I really like TWD and so far the third series has been amazing... but how come there's 3 apparently filled graves in Darryl's scene near the end of 3x05 but then in the next shot Rick is shown still in the prison with Lori's remains presumably 'round the corner?

I guess I only have 3 days, 4 hours left to go to (possibly) find out what happened to Carol... I'd swear she was wearing her scarf when she left the building, so perhaps she had to make a swift re-entry & lost it then?

Also did anyone notice how in the intro scene how Milton was given two cold drinks without having to say a word? The bloke behind him was just given one...

Can't wait 'till Friday...

Cheers
Buzzbomb

[AcesandEights]

Also did anyone notice how in the intro scene how Milton was given two cold drinks without having to say a word? The bloke behind him was just given one...

Those bastards! :p


Can't wait 'till Friday...



Enjoy and let us know what you think after you've gotten a chance to check it out.