TWD 3x08 "Made To Suffer" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The eighth episode of season three, and the mid-season finale as well - keep your discussion of 3x08 to this thread, don't post about it in the shoutbox, and as always keep any future comic book storylines/spoilers within "spoiler tags" (if you don't know how to use spoiler tags, go to the HPOTD FAQ and look up the section on 'BB Codes') - and finally, ENJOY THE DISCUSSION! :hyper::cool::hyper:

[babomb]

I've been seeing some foreign promos from over at ZS. Alot happens tonight!! Some deaths, some new arrivals...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ex3IWMkc_gU

[kidgloves]

BaBomb. That preview video is a spoiler. Edit it mate.

[babomb]

Done. I didn't think it was a spoiler since it's a trailer for 3x08...

[kidgloves]

Done. I didn't think it was a spoiler since it's a trailer for 3x08...

Yeah I know but some people don't even watch the trailers so better to spoiler it as it involves a certain character in the preview still.

[babomb]

I was doing some quick searches about tonights episode and I came across a horrible discussion. It was nothing but women discussing last weeks episode and expectations regarding the new one. I read the entire 1st page. I really wish i hadn't!
In the last few episodes we here have discussed how some choices were most likely made to censor certain aspects for the female viewers. Well, this page was THE discussion to illustrate this. These women were talking about how some of them chose not to watch the last few episodes because they feared what would happen when the baby was born, and the rape scene.
They talked about how they were so upset about how the comic book fans(they called this fandom) must have a general hate for women. Because they hated Lori, hate Andrea, hate Carol and Michonne. And how people are even hating on Maggie for giving up the prison.
Much of the discussion revolved around what a cute couple Glenn and Maggie are, how they're perfect for each other, and how great the scene was where Glenn gives Maggie his shirt after she's brought in the room shirtless.
They're having an online prayer circle to pray for Daryl so that Merle doesn't manipulate or hurt him like he did Glenn!!!
They also nitpick about things there, like we do here, except they nitpick about how Andrea never has roots showing in her hair, and how Carol's hair never grows, and how Herschels hair is a long ponytail which is gross.
It was a site where women discuss celebrity gossip and popular TV. Every other phrase was "I know, right" or "ikr".
They even made up one of those couple names like they give to celebrity couples, "MichAndrea"...

Reading that shit is the single worst thing that's ever happened to me in regard to this show!!
The worst part is that there seems to be a trend starting that points to the writers making decisions on behalf of these kind of people. If this show starts going downhill fast, these people are the reason why!
SOB!!! I'll never search for spoilers again!!!

[kidgloves]

Pp
I was doing some quick searches about tonights episode and I came across a horrible discussion. It was nothing but women discussing last weeks episode and expectations regarding the new one. I read the entire 1st page. I really wish i hadn't!
In the last few episodes we here have discussed how some choices were most likely made to censor certain aspects for the female viewers. Well, this page was THE discussion to illustrate this. These women were talking about how some of them chose not to watch the last few episodes because they feared what would happen when the baby was born, and the rape scene.
They talked about how they were so upset about how the comic book fans(they called this fandom) must have a general hate for women. Because they hated Lori, hate Andrea, hate Carol and Michonne. And how people are even hating on Maggie for giving up the prison.
Much of the discussion revolved around what a cute couple Glenn and Maggie are, how they're perfect for each other, and how great the scene was where Glenn gives Maggie his shirt after she's brought in the room shirtless.
They're having an online prayer circle to pray for Daryl so that Merle doesn't manipulate or hurt him like he did Glenn!!!
They also nitpick about things there, like we do here, except they nitpick about how Andrea never has roots showing in her hair, and how Carol's hair never grows, and how Herschels hair is a long ponytail which is gross.
It was a site where women discuss celebrity gossip and popular TV. Every other phrase was "I know, right" or "ikr".
They even made up one of those couple names like they give to celebrity couples, "MichAndrea"...

Reading that shit is the single worst thing that's ever happened to me in regard to this show!!
The worst part is that there seems to be a trend starting that points to the writers making decisions on behalf of these kind of people. If this show starts going downhill fast, these people are the reason why!
SOB!!! I'll never search for spoilers again!!!

Steer clear of IMDb then. TWD forum is infested with trolls with very little moderation. Whole episode synopsis' for the last 2 episodes have been floating around the internet for a while now if that's what you're after. I had episode 4 ruined for me by some prick putting Lori and T Dogs death in the thread title and I was not happy. The person who did it still didn't understand what they had done wrong despite the shitstorm that rained down on them. Away from this forum, this show has some of the dumbest viewers I've ever come across. They seem incapable of picking up whats going on and complain that the show is stupid because they weren't paying attention. Some even record it and fast forward through the talking parts because they're "boring" and then complain when they get lost in the story. Im not joking or exaggerating. These are people I've interacted with over the last few years and it makes my blood boil sometimes. The Talking Dead, while good sometimes, seems to exist purely to explain to the stupid people what happened.
Anyway.
Rant over.
Can't wait for tonights finale. I can then change my avatar to a certain character whose a big favourite of mine.

[joeharley666]

Pp

Steer clear of IMDb then. TWD forum is infested with trolls with very little moderation. Whole episode synopsis' for the last 2 episodes have been floating around the internet for a while now if that's what you're after. I had episode 4 ruined for me by some prick putting Lori and T Dogs death in the thread title and I was not happy. The person who did it still didn't understand what they had done wrong despite the shitstorm that rained down on them. Away from this forum, this show has some of the dumbest viewers I've ever come across. They seem incapable of picking up whats going on and complain that the show is stupid because they weren't paying attention. Some even record it and fast forward through the talking parts because they're "boring" and then complain when they get lost in the story. Im not joking or exaggerating. These are people I've interacted with over the last few years and it makes my blood boil sometimes. The Talking Dead, while good sometimes, seems to exist purely to explain to the stupid people what happened.
Anyway.
Rant over.
Can't wait for tonights finale. I can then change my avatar to a certain character whose a big favourite of mine.

This!

[babomb]

Pp

Steer clear of IMDb then. TWD forum is infested with trolls with very little moderation. Whole episode synopsis' for the last 2 episodes have been floating around the internet for a while now if that's what you're after. I had episode 4 ruined for me by some prick putting Lori and T Dogs death in the thread title and I was not happy. The person who did it still didn't understand what they had done wrong despite the shitstorm that rained down on them. Away from this forum, this show has some of the dumbest viewers I've ever come across. They seem incapable of picking up whats going on and complain that the show is stupid because they weren't paying attention. Some even record it and fast forward through the talking parts because they're "boring" and then complain when they get lost in the story. Im not joking or exaggerating. These are people I've interacted with over the last few years and it makes my blood boil sometimes. The Talking Dead, while good sometimes, seems to exist purely to explain to the stupid people what happened.
Anyway.
Rant over.
Can't wait for tonights finale. I can then change my avatar to a certain character whose a big favourite of mine. So then there's a whole other site filled with idiots!? These people are gonna ruin this show for us! The only other site I've been to is the official TWD forums where bassman is a mod. The only thing I saw there was a bunch of die hard fans condemning the entire show over small trivial details that differed between the comic and the show. Seemed like a decent forum for the most part. Nothing like this one though.
I've wondered if there were folks monitoring forums to find out what fans thought about the show, or what fans wanted to see. And I'm sure there are, but they most likely focus on what's said on facebook and twitter for the most part.

This was one of the comments that irritated me:

I hated Lori and Carol in the comic, loved Michonne and Andrea there. Hate all but Michonne in the tv series.

But ia, most of TWD fandom hates women. That's why I just read the comics quietly in my corner and stay away from it. Some things they say upset me a lot.

[ProfessorChaos]

BaBomb. That preview video is a spoiler. Edit it mate.

to be fair, though, the title of this thread indicates that it does include spoilers....sorry, just playing devil's advocate here.

regarding the dolts on imdb boards, they are probably also the type who go for the whole "AMC STORY SYNC!!!!!!!!!!!!START YOUR TWO-SCREEN EXPERIENCE" and use social media sites like twitter and facebook while the episode airs to join the discussion with all the other ADD-infected morons.

i don't really understand why AMC feels it's necessary to have this sort of crap going on during their show or what kind of people would want to sit there and fool with their laptops while trying to watch a show like this that requires the viewer to pay close attention....then again, i really don't care for/understand the whole social media brouhaha anyhow.

[kidgloves]

to be fair, though, the title of this thread indicates that it does include spoilers....sorry, just playing devil's advocate here.

Yeah. Its a difficult one Prof. The spoiler thing should only apply AFTER the show has aired. Some of us like to come in here for a bit of a pre show chat and I'm sure if anyone who popped in was spoiled by people discussing leaked character deaths, before the episode has been shown, they would rightly be very pissed off.

[babomb]

Yeah. Its a difficult one Prof. The spoiler thing should only apply AFTER the show has aired. Some of us like to come in here for a bit of a pre show chat and I'm sure if anyone who popped in was spoiled by people discussing leaked character deaths, before the episode has been shown, they would rightly be very pissed off.
I don't want to ruin anyones viewing pleasures or anything like that. I'm not bothered by spoilers myself. I know the general direction the storyline goes in up until what would be the end of season 5, according to the comics anyway. And it really doesn't matter to me who dies in the show or if I know beforehand they're gonna die. It's seeing it play out that matters to me.
Kind of like a rollercoaster ride. You can watch it from the ground a million times, but it will never ruin the actual experience for you.

[Wyldwraith]

The thing is this,
It becomes easy to ignore as a regular here, but as the majority of the people in the world are of barely average intelligence, with a much larger % beneath average intelligence than the % which is of above average intelligence, the majority of people one will encounter on the internet are quite literally unintelligent.

There's nothing we can do but accept that fact and try to avoid the worst of the stupidity. People who can't be bothered to truly keep up with a plot, but then want to critique the show? Give me a break. People quibbling about Andrea's roots, Carol's hair length or the "grossness" of Herschel's ponytail are IMHO literally subhuman troll garbage, whose only conceivable useful trait is serving as a self-image booster for someone with actual intelligence. (I mean, how can you look at the BS they spew and NOT feel superior?)

The vast majority of people have always been relatively stupid, it's just that now that, as Al Pacino observed while portraying a certain Man of Wealth and Taste...The Web allows the most unworthy, substandard thinking to be disseminated to the masses at the touch of a button.

TWD fans are misogynists? I could make a far stronger case that any misogyny is on the part of the writers not the fans. After all, we're simply reacting to what they create. Most of the time as they intend for us to react. If they have a female character make a decision that large elements of the viewing or reading fanbase can't respect, then it only makes sense there will be a corresponding drop in the level of esteem in which that character is held.

Oh poor Maggie. She was abused and either threatened with or actually raped. Horrible, HORRIBLE ACTS. Yet Glenn was subjected to as much or arguably worse than Maggie was, and he didn't talk. Maggie chose to prolong Glenn's life at the cost of severely imperiling the lives of the entirety of their group, including her father and sister as many have mentioned. Being pissed at the Maggie character for allowing the coercion of a sociopath to bear fruit is NOT hating women for being women. Nearly all of my close friends are women, and THEY are the ones most infuriated by the perceived pass Maggie gets from many women for giving up the group and the location of their safehouse. Not unusual, since most strong capable women I know detest the hypocrisy SOME women live by...the entire "Conditional Equality" Ie: We want to be treated like the equals of any man....unless there's a benefit to be had in assuming the traditional female role of generations past. Such as getting a man to fling himself into danger to protect them. Then, assuming the man prevails over the threat, that kind of woman will once again demand to be treated as an equal.

Forget men, that kind of flip-flopping ethical relativism can't be respected by ANYONE regardless of their gender. So of course a hypocrite will espouse opinions abrasive at best to the intelligent mind, and infuriating at worst.

After all, the FANS of the comic and show didn't decide there'd be a character like the Governor, or that he'd use sexual abuse as a coercive tool against Maggie. The writers did...

So really, best not to even give such stupidity a berth in your consciousness. It's impossible to destroy, so all one can do is avoid it as best one can.

[Cykotic]

i know we are still in season 3, but can we expect a fourth season?

[facestabber]

Why must you mess with Daryl Dixon? Well that is frustrating cliffhanger. Sensed it was coming when Daryl was covering the escape rocking the AK. But the ending credits showed a smoke or CS gas attack at the pit.

[babomb]

Pretty action packed!!! Quite a few new developments.

They threw Tyreese in their right off the bat. I thought they'd work up to it. Seems like they got some group additions just in time for what's to come.

Carl's still glued to that fucking hat. But Carl's the law now. He gets more capable by the episode. He was ready to add another name to his list of dead women.
I don't know about Axel!? He might be "that dude"? Fucking hilarious though the way he called Carol a Lesbian.
Something that bothers me though is that Michonne crashed head first through a wall of walker heads floating in water, and rolled around on a floor full of broken glass and walker water. Shouldn't she be infected now?

I had a feeling Shaq was gonna bite it tonight. They had to dump someone. Who better? Oscar's been replaced for the foreseeable future.

[rongravy]

Yeah, that was one helluva sweeet ride for the mid season finale.
Makes the wait for mid February that much more excruciating.
And Merle definitely looked a bit shell shocked at the end thurr.
Wow, just wow.
I'll even throw in a damn for good measure.
Can't wait for Talking Dead to start, and for Kirkman to hopefully spill a precious few tidbits.

[Wyldwraith]

It was rather inevitable,
Knew Daryl was gonna get caught the moment Rick had to have the "I need you!" conversation with him. The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising, but the big surprise of the night (at least for me) was how they decided to just RUIN Andrea. Having seen his Headquariums tm and his inability to let go of his Walker daughter, Andrea just blithely accepts his lame-ass justifications for it all.

Up until now, willful blindness could be blamed for Andrea's poor judgment this season...but after seeing the Governor's "Inner Sanctum"...I just can't fathom how ANYONE, forget someone who's been through the long slog of the Zombie Apocalypse, could fail to INSTANTLY see how profoundly damaged and (more importantly) TWISTED a man the Governor is. Now, having seen it's her old buddy Daryl (and by obvious extension it was Rick & Co. that Daryl was with) that the Governor is denouncing as "terrorists"...she has inarguable evidence the man just makes up stories to tell the Woodbury-sheep as he goes along.

I get that events have sort of rushed past her since the recent revelations she's become privy to due to Michonne's attack (And BTW, is anyone else a tad annoyed that despite the 5-7 Governor-flunkies Rick & Co. killed, + the one Maggie got with the Walker-bone, his forces don't seem to have shrunk at all??) but c'mon now....the people are shell-shocked, the Governor just created further instability by fingering his right-hand-man (hehe)...put a bullet in his head from the crowd Andrea and let this Mayberry-obscenity of a town die before the Governor can twist it into a weapon of war.

In any case, I've given up on Andrea as a character. If they (the writers) want to portray her as so flip-floppy, easily duped and utterly inconsistent with regard to the progression of events she's experienced, then Andrea is firmly in the obstacle-character category. I'm not applying an unreasonable standard of judgment here, am I? Wouldn't ANYONE who saw the Governor's private little sanctum, versus the charming country-gentry facade he wears most of the time deem him insane and extremely dangerous? Why would living through the zombie apocalypse alter a person's basic perception of something so SICK and barbaric as the Headquariums? Personally, I think a FIVE YEAR OLD who saw that, and connected it with the Governor would point a finger and say "You're a very, VERY BAD MAN!"

So what's with Andrea? I'm really, TRULY trying to understand what the writers intend for us to believe regarding the character's decision-making...but it just makes no sense to me. I go over it in my head, and find myself retreading the same basic ground.

Anyways, interesting mid-season finale. Will be quite interested in seeing how it plays out...though I can already guess on the general outline of some things to come.

Final note, found it quite interesting the shard of glass is buried deep enough in the ocular cavity that the medical authority didn't try to remove it from the Governor's head. Even if there wasn't any "Walker virus" on the Headquariums glass, the tank that shard came from had THREE CORPSE HEADS in it. One side of the glass stuck in the Governor's head must therefore be rife with bacteria and such. That deep in the ocular cavity and one would have to worry about even a normally very minor infection crossing the blood/brain barrier and thereby cause exceedingly dangerous inflammation due to the stifled immune response. What do you all think?

[Moon Knight]

My man Tyreese packing that hammer, yes!!!!

What a show, man! That fight between Michonne and The Governor was pretty cool, especially with the Walker heads involved lol

Sucks, Oscar was growing on me but I guess I should be used to anything happening on this show.

So much to discuss on this one. That ending, daaaaaamn!

[facestabber]

Gotta give props to Michonne. She fought and beat the Gov to victory and certain death........until the bumbling, stumbling moron that Andrea is showed up. For Hells sake Andrea do the fish tanks of heads not shed some light that maybe Michonne was right? After all her tough talk about marksmen ship she misses the prisoner. Andrea is pure fail. But I loved seeing Michonne fight to the death and come out on top.

Finally Merle meets Daryl. Well they had to do it big. Wouldn't have had much impact if Daryl walked up to the gate and asked to speak to his brother. So they gave us a tension filled reunion. Not as powerful as season 2's mid season break. I'm guessing they both somehow survive but Rick should know it was his job to cover Daryl's retreat. Otherwise very sound tactics.

Maggie and Glen welcome home. Didn't think they'd survive.

The stuff at the prison didn't really interest me. I used to like Hershel's contributions but the writers have given him a couple sentences now. Very smart of him to hide his disibility by keeping his leg out of view to the new arrivals. I did laugh at the reference to Carols hair but meh to the rest.

Tyrese seems like a likeable guy but the new group can be fodder to spare our group as far as I care.
Gonna be a long two months. And great effects and zombie kills again. Romero should be envious at the volume and quality of execution

[Moon Knight]

It was rather inevitable,
Knew Daryl was gonna get caught the moment Rick had to have the "I need you!" conversation with him. The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising, but the big surprise of the night (at least for me) was how they decided to just RUIN Andrea. Having seen his Headquariums tm and his inability to let go of his Walker daughter, Andrea just blithely accepts his lame-ass justifications for it all.

Up until now, willful blindness could be blamed for Andrea's poor judgment this season...but after seeing the Governor's "Inner Sanctum"...I just can't fathom how ANYONE, forget someone who's been through the long slog of the Zombie Apocalypse, could fail to INSTANTLY see how profoundly damaged and (more importantly) TWISTED a man the Governor is. Now, having seen it's her old buddy Daryl (and by obvious extension it was Rick & Co. that Daryl was with) that the Governor is denouncing as "terrorists"...she has inarguable evidence the man just makes up stories to tell the Woodbury-sheep as he goes along.

I get that events have sort of rushed past her since the recent revelations she's become privy to due to Michonne's attack (And BTW, is anyone else a tad annoyed that despite the 5-7 Governor-flunkies Rick & Co. killed, + the one Maggie got with the Walker-bone, his forces don't seem to have shrunk at all??) but c'mon now....the people are shell-shocked, the Governor just created further instability by fingering his right-hand-man (hehe)...put a bullet in his head from the crowd Andrea and let this Mayberry-obscenity of a town die before the Governor can twist it into a weapon of war.

In any case, I've given up on Andrea as a character. If they (the writers) want to portray her as so flip-floppy, easily duped and utterly inconsistent with regard to the progression of events she's experienced, then Andrea is firmly in the obstacle-character category. I'm not applying an unreasonable standard of judgment here, am I? Wouldn't ANYONE who saw the Governor's private little sanctum, versus the charming country-gentry facade he wears most of the time deem him insane and extremely dangerous? Why would living through the zombie apocalypse alter a person's basic perception of something so SICK and barbaric as the Headquariums? Personally, I think a FIVE YEAR OLD who saw that, and connected it with the Governor would point a finger and say "You're a very, VERY BAD MAN!"

So what's with Andrea? I'm really, TRULY trying to understand what the writers intend for us to believe regarding the character's decision-making...but it just makes no sense to me. I go over it in my head, and find myself retreading the same basic ground.

Anyways, interesting mid-season finale. Will be quite interested in seeing how it plays out...though I can already guess on the general outline of some things to come.

Final note, found it quite interesting the shard of glass is buried deep enough in the ocular cavity that the medical authority didn't try to remove it from the Governor's head. Even if there wasn't any "Walker virus" on the Headquariums glass, the tank that shard came from had THREE CORPSE HEADS in it. One side of the glass stuck in the Governor's head must therefore be rife with bacteria and such. That deep in the ocular cavity and one would have to worry about even a normally very minor infection crossing the blood/brain barrier and thereby cause exceedingly dangerous inflammation due to the stifled immune response. What do you all think?

Good points.

It's really hard to root for Andrea anymore and I'm one that never had an issue with any of the female characters. All this shit is going down and she STILL doesn't have a clue. We'l see how they handle her in the second half after discovering Daryl is a prisoner.

And as far as the glass aquariums, It's a good arguement but one I really don't care for. If the show had to follow all these rules then we wouldn't get so many cool things and the groups would never get Walker blood on them and we know that's impossible.

[erisi236]

Sorry Oscar, we only have room for one black guy in this show, ha.

[ProfessorChaos]

glad to see rick and the gang rescue glenn and maggie. sucks that oscar had to go, but it was fairly obvious that someone would probably die in the skirmish. he seemed like a potentially good character, particularly after shooting andrew to save rick. and it was pretty satisfying to see maggie make sure he didn't come back by giving him a round in the head....though maybe by letting him reanimate it would have added to the chaos in woodbury.

tyrese finally showed up, but i don't know if they even addressed him in name...still, his character will surely help add some muscle and leadership, which the prison gang will surely need once the governor and his sheep decide to get some payback...and did i hear them call the bitten woman donna? then i guess that her husband would be allan, along with tyrese's daughter and her boyfriend. so the prison census jumped a bit, which is good, cuz i'm sure it's gonna drop soon due to an inevitable "round two" on their home court.

and yes, andrea continues to disappoint. how she could stay with the governor after all she saw in his little den of insanity is mind-boggling....dude must be hung like a mule or something. and she surely recognized daryl, so hopefully she redeems herself in the second half of the season by opening her dumb mouth and preventing whatever the hell is about to go down in the arena.

speaking of andrea, i've been pondering whether it's the writer's fault or the actress's regarding how horribly wrong they got her character. and i've came to the conclusion that it's both. her storyline is total crap, she's written to be naive beyond belief, the actress makes her seem like a total self-righteous bitch nearly every time she opens her mouth, and her mannerisms (i think JonoftheShread has alluded to this in other threads) just put off an aura of "OH NO YOU DIINT!!!" with all her little head swivels, bitchy stares, and neck-whipping.

as for the cliff-hanger, i can't see them killing daryl, nor can i see him agreeing to kill merle. i really hope andrea proves useful for once by speaking up to spare him, but i suppose we'll have to wait a couple of months to find out.

[AnxietyDilemma]

It was rather inevitable,
The Governor selling Merle down the river despite having just lost quite a few of his lackeys was a bit surprising,



Well, Merle did lie about killing Michonne as he was ordered to do, who in turn came back to kill The Governor and ended up stabbing him through the eye socket with a shard of glass, and took out his "daughter". The look he gave a concerned Merle earlier on basically alluded to it, and you knew it would be addressed sooner or later.

As for Tyrese, yes, he was addressed by name early on in the episode.

[kidgloves]

I've just had a nerdgasm :hyper::hyper::hyper:

[Wyldwraith]

Eh,
I can ignore stuff like people getting Walker blood on them externally, or even something story-driven like the EXTREMELY CRUDE amputation of Herschel's leg. For one basic reason...the "bad stuff" doesn't linger long-term. Walker blood gets washed off, Herschel's leg was eight kinds of doctored/disinfected once Carl came back with medical supplies no doubt....but a several inch shard of glass buried so keep that even with the eye punctured you can clearly see the roundness of the ocular cavity (meaning its bisected the retina and the point is AT BEST resting against a) The Optic Nerve and b) A whole bunch of blood vessels) that's just left in his skull...that is easily the most infection-rife (speaking conventionally here, not zombie virus stuff) thing they've done to a living character.)

Herschel's leg-stump would actually be much more hygienic than the Governor's eye socket for a few reasons structurally simple enough it wouldn't be at all hard to touch on it story-wise. You sever a major blood vessel in an extremity in a (relatively) clean fashion and said blood vessel (in Herschel's case the Femoral Artery) tends to snap back deeper within the extremity and do a fair job on its own before you even begin applying medical treatment of limiting/preventing blood loss. Add that to the major initial blood loss of the amputation being something of a blessing in disguise by purging large a large % of any pathogens along with the blood.

My problem with that eye socket is really simple. One, the foreign object is STILL IN THERE. Two, it's not really an area of the body that can afford ANY inflammation, AT ALL from the tiniest most minor, normally take 2 Tylenol and you've suppressed it infection. Inflammation could move the point of the glass shard, could cause a blood clot from sequestered blood...it's just instinctive...a foreign object left in a Skull Hole is Not A Good Thing.

Besides, it would make for interesting story if the Governor who, already insane, is battling a fever/infection and all the fun symptoms that can go along with that and all while trying to organize and lead a military campaign Vs. the prison. That, and it would give him a touch of basic humanity which would only make him seem all the more repellant by contrast if he can fall ill and rant and rave in a fever about his dead loved ones. Just my thoughts on the matter. As always, yours may vary.

[facestabber]

Wylde I think you just have to look at it as a scene to elicit a wow factor from viewers. Everyone probably gasped when it happened. But I see where you are coming from for sure.

That injury in our world is bad enough but in a zombie apoc would be hard to recover. I was and still am distracted at the epic ness of that fight. That was just badass. Michonne can frustrate me but she has now won me over as a fan.

[JonOfTheShred]

- Episode opening with Tyrese = win
- I noticed the lady bitten was named Donna as well. It's too bad they didn't feature the twins - in the comic, when one of the twins completely disembowels his brother, it was the most haunting image in the entire comic, in my opinion. It was easily the most shocking thing I think they've done so far, even moreso than Lori in the comics, or the whole "Ma....Ma.....Maggie?!" Something about a preteen ripping out the organs of his mirror image is just creepy on a whole different level.
- Axel as comic relief? Yea, I can see that. Axel hitting on Beth perv-style? Kinda creepy. I could see him and Carol actually going 20 toes heels to Jesus. But I don't want him taking the role Tomas in the comics had. There simply isn't enough characters to keep running through anymore for that kind of shit.
- They're not gonna kill Daryl....but they better not. If they have a showdown fist fight in the warehouse between him and his brother, it'll be kind of lame, IMO. Way too contrived "big action movie" to throw that in there.
- The second we saw Tyrese on-screen, it was safe to assume Oscars time was up. We all knew he was a redshirt, although in all fairness, everyone said that about T-Dog and he had 3 full seasons. I still think T-Dog was originally supposed to evolve into Tyrese, but the fan backlash stopped that from happening.
- Glad Glenn and Maggie made it out alive.




Besides, it would make for interesting story if the Governor who, already insane, is battling a fever/infection and all the fun symptoms that can go along with that and all while trying to organize and lead a military campaign Vs. the prison. That, and it would give him a touch of basic humanity which would only make him seem all the more repellant by contrast if he can fall ill and rant and rave in a fever about his dead loved ones. Just my thoughts on the matter. As always, yours may vary.

That's a brilliant idea, actually. An infection driving the governor further into insanity, giving him hallucinations, all kinds of fucked up shit. (And of course, Andrea will be seeing it all happen with a stupid condescending smirk on her face, still oblivious she's getting pounded by Adolf Hitler of the zombie apocalypse. :p)

[babomb]

Good points.

It's really hard to root for Andrea anymore and I'm one that never had an issue with any of the female characters. All this shit is going down and she STILL doesn't have a clue. We'l see how they handle her in the second half after discovering Daryl is a prisoner.

And as far as the glass aquariums, It's a good arguement but one I really don't care for. If the show had to follow all these rules then we wouldn't get so many cool things and the groups would never get Walker blood on them and we know that's impossible. I for one would like to see them actively try to prevent themselves from becoming covered in walker blood. You know it's still gonna happen despite their best efforts. But having them keep covered in long sleeves, maybe some handkerchiefs over the mouth, some gloves, would go a long way as far as keeping it realistic. I mean, that's what I'd be doing in that situation. And that's what they did in the start of season 1, when Rick got out of the tank and T-Dog and the spanish dude were covered in Tyvek suits and helmets and gloves to take out a few measely walkers. That's just realistic. And i wish that would've been continued.
It's not a major deal to me, I still love the show. But look at how as a society we view infectious outbreak already. Maintaining a certain level of protection from it is just sound logic, even after the apocalypse. I just don't want to get to a point in this show where we abandon all logic and disbelief in favor of WOW moments and death scenes. Forgetting what's actually happening and the reality of the situation the characters are in.

[kidgloves]

I reckon Daryl's a goner.
Do it Kirkman. Do it :evil:

[babomb]

Tyrees' group isn't the same group people think. That's not his daughter with them. Unless it's his step daughter. Because she calls him by name in the beginning when she pops out from behind the tree. And the lady who gets bit is the younger guys mother. Might be Allen and Donna, but I don't think the roles are the same as the comic.

[JonOfTheShred]

I reckon Daryl's a goner.
Do it Kirkman. Do it :evil:

They can't kill him now. It'll be shallow and anti-climatic. If they wanted to kill Daryl off, they would've done it in this episode in a way that packs emotional punch. If they kill him now in the context as prisoner it'll just be a foot-note as opposed to something memorable. (Like every other lead character death in the show has been.)

[MinionZombie]

IN SUMMARY:

* Tyreese! At long last the burly hammer-swinging badass has arrived, and with a contingency of fresh meat following him. The name Donna (given to the woman who gets bitten on the arm) is a reference to the comics. So we can reasonably assume that her man is Allen (another character from the comics) - however both Donna and Allen were part of Rick's group from the very beginning. Good to see some more familiar names turning up.

* I was beginning to get a bit distracted by the fact that the prison wasn't looking much like what we saw in that final shot of season two, but here we saw another portion of it.

* The scene between The Governor (Philip) and his undead daughter Penny was an interesting one. We've seen a much deeper and multi-faceted version of one of the comic's most iconic villains, and even though we hate this guy, we still feel a pang of sympathy for him and all the losses he has endured since the outbreak began. Emotional, but also rather disturbing.

* Glenn's walker bone shiv idea was a cracking (ba-boom-boom, tish) little moment. Now that's survivalism, Walking Dead style.

* Axel's a bit creepy - although he was known for peeping on the women in the showers in the comics - so his talk with Beth was, yeah, a bit shady (Carl didn't like it much either). Although his exchange with Carol - him assuming she was a lesbian because of her short hair - brought levity and toned-down the creep-factor from Axel.

* ACTION! Assault rifles, silenced pistols, smoke grenades, flash bangs - plenty of good fun to be had.

* I dug Daryl's rollercoaster during this episode. He's a gun-toting badass, but the little brother in him comes to the fore when he finds out Merle is not only alive, but here in Woodbury. Furthermore, when he's captured and in front of that baying mob, you can see his inner child come forth - he's actually scared for the first time in a long, long time ... but then so would you if you were surrounded by an audience who was after your blood, having been labelled a "terrorist".

* So long Oscar - he didn't last long. Kind of a bummer as I was growing to like his character. Now to sit back and wait for the "heard you need a NEW new black guy" memes to come forth, ha!

* Shane! A nice little touch having Jon Bernthal return briefly - Rick's not fully out-of-the-nutter-woods yet, then.

* Michonne's fight with The Governor was brutal and tense, and rather kick arse. It felt pretty real too, with lots of scrabbling around desperately trying to get the upper hand. When she grabbed the shard of glass, slicing her hand open in the process, elicited a good old wince from me.

* Speaking of Michonne, some folks out there have been a bit critical of her thus far, but I think this was definitely her strongest outing in the show thus far. We got a broad range of emotions from her here, she kicked plenty of arse, and she's enough of a troublemaker to keep things interesting when she's around others - she was always a bit of a rogue in the comics anyway.

* Andrea's seen behind the mask with Philip now, and with the end of the episode proving he's gone to the dark side, she has little in the way of options. As the previews for February suggest, she's going to be getting the hell out of Woodbury soon.

* Carl is referred to as a "man" by Tyreese, which was a nice little touch. Carl's come a long way since his weakest and most child-like moments in season two.

* An element that's ever-present in the comics is rash decisions, or decisions based on revenge, coming back to haunt you. As the cast talked about, Penny - albeit in undead form - was keeping a lid on Philip's undercurrent of insanity and mayhem. With her gone, he has no connection to his former self and his former life - the beast has been unleashed. Let the blood flow...

BEST GORE MOMENT:

The Governor taking a shard of fish tank glass in the eye. It packed a genuine jolt during his gripping scuffle with Michonne.

BEST TWIST ON THE COMICS:

Generally giving The Governor more depth and more sides to his character - he's not an outright villain, but he's not exactly cuddly either. It's also wise to spread some of the names from the comics out a bit - the comics did have a tendancy early on to introduce a shedload of characters and then not do an awful lot with a number of them (making them background filler more than anything, as well as eventual cannon-fodder, and in some cases bigger players further down the line). Keeping us waiting for Tyreese was a good plan - we sustain heavy losses early-on in the season, and just when we're looking a bit sparse-on-the-ground, we get a new batch of key players.

THE CLIFFHANGER:

The Governor's gone over to the dark side, he's captured Daryl, and he's cut Merle loose in front of a baying mob ... plus Andrea's finally beginning to see the dark side. It's a right old tease for the viewers, although if you watch the mini trailer for the return of the show in February, you can find a few answers. It's a good ending for the mid-season finale though, and it's interesting that this is the very first time that Daryl and Merle are actually on-screen together in the same scene. It's a testament to the strength of these characters that we've always believed them to be brothers, and that their fractious bond remains strong, in spite of the fact that it's taken twenty-seven episodes to get them in the frame together.

...

Now, having looked at the 'coming in February' preview, and the very short sneak peak of 3x09's beginning, I've put down some thoughts of what to expect next - but I'll put that stuff in spoiler tags in case anyone doesn't want to know anything - although AMC would never give away any actual spoilers.

Judging from the snippets we got to see in the teaser for February's return of The Walking Dead, we can expect Rick & Co to stage a daring rescue of Daryl, and indeed Merle as well (Glenn is unhappy that Rick has brought someone with him – clearly it'll be Merle). The mid-season finale had the two brothers held captive by The Governor and his men before a baying mob, but with clearly they're saved just in time – we even see a shot of Daryl in the woods, and glimpse him opening a fence at the prison.

The Governor's going dark – when Michonne took out his undead daughter, he lost the final thing that was tying him to his previous life and his humanity. Pandora's box is now very much open. We see a shot of the now monocular villain firing from his truck – but at what? These Walking Dead teasers are always craftily edited.

The actors have also spoken of Glenn taking a darker turn in the next eight episodes. We've seen him kick major arse when he was held at Woodbury (his fight with a walker in 3x07) and we've seen him defend Maggie and himself by any means necessary (using bones from the slain walker's body as shivs in 3x08). By the sounds of it we'll see a vengeful streak in him.

Andrea, having discovered some of the darkness behind The Governor, and that the “terrorists” are in fact her old friends (in a sneak peak from AMC, Andrea tries to stop The Governor from taking drastic action against The Brothers Dixon) is going to move away from Woodbury. He is unsure of her loyalty, and she returns to the prison (even taking a leaf out of Michonne's book and using a captive walker as a blocker) to be re-united with Rick and the gang.

Finally it looks like the stakes are going to be raised once again – the residents of Woodbury seem to be up-in-arms – are they after revenge? Are they scared and looking to flee their town? Meanwhile a van smashes through the fences at the prison – but what's particularly interesting is that this seems to take place at the same time as Andrea's arrival at the prison (you can see that the field inside the fences not only has walkers in it, but that the van is sat there too). What does this mean? Was she followed? Is this a suicidal attack by Woodbury residents, or enemies unknown? Or is it an inconvenient coincidence?

...

As for the wackos out there somewhere in the world watching this show, they might seem like they're large in number, but as is always the case, the loudest shouters are the fewest in number. The majority of people are normal (if you yourself can be normal and consider yourself to be a fairly average member of society, why can't the vast majority of people therefore be of a similar disposition?), but you always get clusters of weirdos ranting and spitting fury or inane banter ... these will be the very same people who pissed and moaned about The Walking Dead being "the slow show" - a criticism that Glen Mazzara actively took-to-task on The Talking Dead earlier this year/late last year. There are tons of other shows out there where far less happens in an episode, or it goes at a far slower pace. Yes, season two was a bit slow in places, but it also wasn't "the slow show" that some folks way out there in the wilderness were bitching about ... besides, it's natural that before the walkers took over the countryside, it would be safer. Now though everywhere is screwed, and with increased risk-versus-reward situations and much higher stakes, the drama and action are going to increase big time. It's a natural escalation that would have happened anyway.

Also, I'm glad they didn't go all out on Maggie - it would have been very unwise, and really it's just unnecessary. The Governor would be totally written off by the audience, and you've got to take into account the softer palets of a wider audience in these very extreme situations; the threat was enough on its own. Plus you'd totally ruin your pacing for the character's arc - the next eight episodes are going to be designed to show The Governor get progressively more insane, to reach a fever pitch by the season finale - that's what I'd reasonaly expect to happen.

Besides, when you think about what the do show on The Walking Dead as a matter of routine, it's stunning that the show is as successful as it is. Hell, in the second ever episode they cover Glenn and Rick in zombie guts - and they show it graphically - heck, in the first scene of the first episode there's a little girl zombie who gets shot in the face. What other show would dare to illustrate such a thing?! Just think about some of the sights we've seen with this show - this show is graphic.

In terms of 'woman hate', again, a minority situation...

I've seen a few comments here aimed at some of the women on the show that have been entirely unwarranted, or usually at best simply unnecessary. Andrea gets a raw deal from some folks here, yes she's flawed, but she also doesn't know anywhere near as much info as we the viewer does - that's extremely important to remember. Clearly now the veil has been (mostly) lifted (she still doesn't know The Governor and his men captured and tortured Glenn & Maggie, for instance), and from the preview at the end of the episode she's going to be reconnecting with Rick & Co.

Carol gets harsh words from time-to-time as well, and again, I don't understand why. Same thing with Lori - there's a fair bit of Lori hate out there, and I never understood why. Again, yes, she's flawed, but she was also lied to (Shane lied to her about Rick being dead), and she was damn-near raped, and she's had a hell of a lot to deal with ... some of her actions/reactions have been somewhat misinterpreted too, and I found it fascinating to see the stunned reaction to her demise.

So, long-winded point being, don't pay attention to a handful of screaming loons - it's par for the course, and there's no way that Mazzara & Co would listen to (let alone allow themselves to be influenced by) such lunacy. They've got a shed load of work to be getting on with, so I doubt they've got much time to be surfing the craziest corners of the internet - really, their contact with the fans will be at conventions and via social media, and the majority of their contact will no doubt be reasonable people asking reasonable questions, even if some of them aren't as well-versed in, or obsessed by, TWD lore as we are.

Annnnnnd breathe... :p

- - - Updated - - -


Tyrees' group isn't the same group people think. That's not his daughter with them. Unless it's his step daughter. Because she calls him by name in the beginning when she pops out from behind the tree. And the lady who gets bit is the younger guys mother. Might be Allen and Donna, but I don't think the roles are the same as the comic.

The chick who died was called Donna (who was a heftier lady in the comics), so I'd wager that the bearded guy wearing flannel/a checked shirt, was Allen (also from the comics, where he was seen with a beard and a checked shirt, married to Donna, albeit himself with more girth around the gut). More children would be an additional headache from a production standpoint (indeed in the comics there's a whole bunch of kids running around at the beginning).

Is it confirmed that "Ben" is the son of Donna? I didn't notice myself whether that was the case or not. Perhaps he's a younger brother? The actress playing Donna seemed a bit young to have a son that looked that old ... maybe not (e.g. teenage pregnancy), but the actress seemed fairly young.

Donna and Allen were with the group in the camp outside Atlanta IIRC, and Tyreese & Co joined them in Issue #7/beginning of volume #2 IIRC - so they're shifting things around a little bit, but it's makes sense to as well. It's also wise to space some of these characters out as Kirkman had a lot of people in a the group early on, but many had very little to do, and again there are artistic and practical concerns when converting that into a tv show. It's easy to write and draw a load of people, but in a production they're all paid actors and you've only got so much screen time - so it makes sense to save some for later, particular when we're in-need of bolstering our group's numbers after some heavy losses.


They can't kill him now. It'll be shallow and anti-climatic. If they wanted to kill Daryl off, they would've done it in this episode in a way that packs emotional punch. If they kill him now in the context as prisoner it'll just be a foot-note as opposed to something memorable. (Like every other lead character death in the show has been.)

They won't kill off Daryl until the time is right at the stakes are high enough - indeed I'd wager what will happen is that Daryl will have to sacrifice Merle, or perhaps Merle will sacrifice himself in a redemptive act. Indeed, it'd be very unwise of the show makers to kill of Daryl for a long while yet - he's too loved, and if he was to die in some future season of the show, it'd have to be such a huge deal that was carried out in a fitting way that paid tribute to the character. Plus there's so much more to do with Daryl in the future, it'd be foolish to cut themselves off at the knees.

Calm down folks, kidgloves is having some sick & twisted fun ... the cheeky git. :p

Besides - Daryl's in the preview at the end of the episode, where he's shown to be outside of Woodbury.

[babomb]

I really like the social commentary on so called "civil society" with Woodbury, with the GOV being the authority that lies, cheats, steals, and plays on everyones fears to pursue his own personal agenda. And the prison group being the underdog, the group that's barely keeping it together, but nonetheless is drawn into a conflict with an enemy that's seemingly better situated and supplied, and appears to have the upperhand.

It's a well done example of the old saying "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter". The citizens in that little community believe 100% that they were attacked by terrorists that were extremely violent and wanted what they had.
This is the equivalent to Romeros critique on consumer culture in the 70's.


Also, I'm glad they didn't go all out on Maggie - it would have been very unwise, and really it's just unnecessary. The Governor would be totally written off by the audience, and you've got to take into account the softer palets of a wider audience in these very extreme situations; the threat was enough on its own. Plus you'd totally ruin your pacing for the character's arc - the next eight episodes are going to be designed to show The Governor get progressively more insane, to reach a fever pitch by the season finale - that's what I'd reasonaly expect to happen.

Besides, when you think about what the do show on The Walking Dead as a matter of routine, it's stunning that the show is as successful as it is. Hell, in the second ever episode they cover Glenn and Rick in zombie guts - and they show it graphically - heck, in the first scene of the first episode there's a little girl zombie who gets shot in the face. What other show would dare to illustrate such a thing?! Just think about some of the sights we've seen with this show - this show is graphic. This is problematic with a certain amount of viewers. I saw it clearly on the page I stumbled onto. Those ladies had a problem with the graphic nature and found it unnecessary in many instances. One thing they really seemed to not care for was when Rick peeled the gas mask off the riot cop walker. These are the moments that most fans love.
So it's really strange to me to know that there are viewers out there who love this show to the point where they stage online prayer circles to pray for characters, yet they disapprove of the shows very nature and premise.

[kidgloves]

Yeah. Nothing against Daryl. I call for his death every season. :evil: Its tradition. He will have to take a backseat though now a REAL badass in Tyreese is on the scene. Loved what I saw of him though. Cool, calm and collected. And of course, there's the hammer.

[Moon Knight]

It has been confirmed by Chad Coleman that Sasha is his younger Sister, and the couple were Donna and Allen and their son Ben.

[Wyldwraith]

Surprised no one responded to this point,
Michonne took out a few of the Governor's lackeys when she escaped Merle, Rick & Co. killed another 5-7 +1 more by Maggie with a Walker-shiv. At a MINIMUM that's 9 of the Gov's automatic-weapon carrying goons. Or put it another way, if the population of Woodbury is 75 people then -10 is a SIGNIFICANT % of the overall population.

Now I don't really care about the #s per-se, but rather the way all season the Governor's armed thugs have been given a shadier, in-the-know identity of their own, completely separate from the Woodbury civilians. To be able to lose 10, or rather 11 counting Merle now being under arrest, and still have Woodbury APPEAR atmosphere-wise the same armed cordon surrounding a squishy civilian center just bugs the ever-loving shit out of me.

Put still another way. Let's say the Governor had a total of 25 men on his shady, murdering-other-survivor-groups death squad roster. 25 is about how many guys he'd need in that capacity to lose 10-11 and have things still look about normal with the same # of guys back on the wall, acting as internal security etc etc. That would mean that 1 in 3 people in Woodbury are in on all the Governor's dastardly, ordering them to bring heads back for him, deeds. Thematically speaking, the writers/director have made Woodbury look and feel as if the large majority of the inhabitants are completely clueless of the Governor's darker activities.

So how does that align with the major # of casualties the Governor's thugs suffered as a result of the rescue-raid by Rick & Co.? On one level it makes sense that's why the Governor is now using propaganda to twist the civilians of Woodbury into willing conscripts for his counterattack, but on another there's no hint that losing 11 of his cronies (and that's a MINIMUM count. The actual # could be 14 or 15) has done anything to weaken the Governor's police-state. There's STILL plenty of guys with automatic weapons crowded near Merle and Daryl, and quite a few more on the outskirts of the crowd. This is what I find difficult to reconcile, because of the MAJOR IMPACT on the story depending on just how many thugs the Governor lost.

I mean, I'd HATE to see them essentially replaced as faceless redshirts with a lame excuse like "Oh, the Governor just recruited more of them from amongst the menfolk of Woodbury." Out of 75-80 people he was DAMNED LUCKY to be able to assemble 15-25 depraved killers that are ALSO stable enough to control long-term. Your average meth-shooting former biker just isn't gonna cover it in most cases...and it's not like the Governor can wave a magic wand and make another few dozen survivors appear.

See what I'm getting at here? It isn't a nitpick about camera angles. It's a problem that will have a pivotal part to play when Round 2 happens at the Prison.

[facestabber]

I for one would like to see them actively try to prevent themselves from becoming covered in walker blood. You know it's still gonna happen despite their best efforts. But having them keep covered in long sleeves, maybe some handkerchiefs over the mouth, some gloves, would go a long way as far as keeping it realistic. I mean, that's what I'd be doing in that situation. And that's what they did in the start of season 1, when Rick got out of the tank and T-Dog and the spanish dude were covered in Tyvek suits and helmets and gloves to take out a few measely walkers. That's just realistic. And i wish that would've been continued.
It's not a major deal to me, I still love the show. But look at how as a society we view infectious outbreak already. Maintaining a certain level of protection from it is just sound logic, even after the apocalypse. I just don't want to get to a point in this show where we abandon all logic and disbelief in favor of WOW moments and death scenes. Forgetting what's actually happening and the reality of the situation the characters are in.

You are right about clothing and blood. Seeing skin on Maggie and her sexy tank tops makes for great eye candy. But long sleeves are beyond smart. Who would want to die from a cheap preventable bite. Not sure why they would let their guard down. Full gear in season one and no protection now.
Complacency maybe or have they resigned to the fact that since they are all infected they don't worry so much. I myself wouldn't be too keen with walker blood on me. The realism has faded a bit for sure.

[Neil]

The nice thing about this series is it's not predictable, at least not for me. I really though Andrea my just shoot Michonne!

[kidgloves]

Surprised no one responded to this point,
Michonne took out a few of the Governor's lackeys when she escaped Merle, Rick & Co. killed another 5-7 +1 more by Maggie with a Walker-shiv. At a MINIMUM that's 9 of the Gov's automatic-weapon carrying goons. Or put it another way, if the population of Woodbury is 75 people then -10 is a SIGNIFICANT % of the overall population.

Now I don't really care about the #s per-se, but rather the way all season the Governor's armed thugs have been given a shadier, in-the-know identity of their own, completely separate from the Woodbury civilians. To be able to lose 10, or rather 11 counting Merle now being under arrest, and still have Woodbury APPEAR atmosphere-wise the same armed cordon surrounding a squishy civilian center just bugs the ever-loving shit out of me.

Put still another way. Let's say the Governor had a total of 25 men on his shady, murdering-other-survivor-groups death squad roster. 25 is about how many guys he'd need in that capacity to lose 10-11 and have things still look about normal with the same # of guys back on the wall, acting as internal security etc etc. That would mean that 1 in 3 people in Woodbury are in on all the Governor's dastardly, ordering them to bring heads back for him, deeds. Thematically speaking, the writers/director have made Woodbury look and feel as if the large majority of the inhabitants are completely clueless of the Governor's darker activities.

So how does that align with the major # of casualties the Governor's thugs suffered as a result of the rescue-raid by Rick & Co.? On one level it makes sense that's why the Governor is now using propaganda to twist the civilians of Woodbury into willing conscripts for his counterattack, but on another there's no hint that losing 11 of his cronies (and that's a MINIMUM count. The actual # could be 14 or 15) has done anything to weaken the Governor's police-state. There's STILL plenty of guys with automatic weapons crowded near Merle and Daryl, and quite a few more on the outskirts of the crowd. This is what I find difficult to reconcile, because of the MAJOR IMPACT on the story depending on just how many thugs the Governor lost.

I mean, I'd HATE to see them essentially replaced as faceless redshirts with a lame excuse like "Oh, the Governor just recruited more of them from amongst the menfolk of Woodbury." Out of 75-80 people he was DAMNED LUCKY to be able to assemble 15-25 depraved killers that are ALSO stable enough to control long-term. Your average meth-shooting former biker just isn't gonna cover it in most cases...and it's not like the Governor can wave a magic wand and make another few dozen survivors appear.

See what I'm getting at here? It isn't a nitpick about camera angles. It's a problem that will have a pivotal part to play when Round 2 happens at the Prison.

You're spot on as usual Wyld. That's all I'm going to say.;)

[sandrock74]

In the comic, there was said to only be about 45 people in Woodbury, so about 30 people less than on the show.

The Governor took a good couple dozen with him to attack the prison and from what we were shown, most of them were just normal folks given a gun and told the prison folk were evil. They were easily scared off by Andrea shooting at them in the opening round of the conflict.

I see this exact type of scene being played out on the show. Wyld is right about the body count in Woodbury; the Gov is going to be forced to essentially arm a civilian militia. Woodbury will have the numbers on their side, but certainly lack in experience and practical knowledge of sound tactics.

One big difference from the comic that I think is interesting is how Rick and the governor haven't met face-to-face yet. Its like Kirk and Khan in Star Trek II; enemies who never shared the screen. It'll be fun to see how this plays out.

[bassman]

I feel sorry for non-comic fans that are reading this thread. You guys are dropping comic spoilers like there's no tomorrow....



Anyway, good episode. They've kept a very nice pace with this season. Can't wait to see the rest.

[kidgloves]

I feel sorry for non-comic fans that are reading this thread. You guys are dropping comic spoilers like there's no tomorrow....



Anyway, good episode. They've kept a very nice pace with this season. Can't wait to see the rest.

Yeah. The spoiler policy seems to have been thrown out the window.
I thought it was just me being over reactive in other threads but people just don't stop and think for a second that someone else might not know what they know.

[Christopher Jon]

So what's with Andrea? I'm really, TRULY trying to understand what the writers intend for us to believe regarding the character's decision-making...but it just makes no sense to me. I go over it in my head, and find myself retreading the same basic ground.


In the known Walking Dead universe, Woodbury is the best thing going. Her decisions make a lot of sense. She wants to survive.

Option A) On the run, trying to survive, eating dog food.

Option B) Living in a safe community, drinking beer, f'ing the Gov.

[rgc2005]

Well said.
Woodbury cannot hold and if the show has even a buck private Infantryman as an adviser this should be one awesome battle.
Operationally the Governor is completely screwed and he knows it to be painfully true. There are no indications that this town is the militarized version from the comics. The town has lost the core of its offensive striking capability and most importantly he is the only leader left that can command a force in the field. It is clear from the rapid rise of Andrea's authority during the crisis he is already feeling the manpower pinch even with Merle leading the quick reaction force in the defense of Woodbury. He has declared Merle a traitor depriving himself of his best leader, fighter and tactician. The town as it stands now only has two courses of action; strongpoint defense or massed attack. They no longer have the ability to simultaneously Recon AND Scavenge for supplies which leaves them blind while they starve behind the walls.

Due to lack of experience and personnel losses they can not perform Raids/Ambush operations like they did against the National Guard. We already know the average wall guards cannot shoot since they fired off more ammo than a Storm Trooper garrison and the only hit came from Andrea. Recruiting from the pampered civilians is his only choice since outside the potential of outside help is nil since most potential allies are dead, floating in a fish tank or leaving Woodbury a wide berth. Without 10-15 outside replacement fighters the town is wide open to another attack and already has major weaknesses since "Walkers slip in the sides from time to time". Due to proximity to the Red Zone Woodbury has to defend its population in place and as well as a large assault force outside the walls. That large a force mustering in the open will attract massed walker herds. This necessity forces the Governor to either bring the children or constrict Woodbury's defensible perimeter into a civilian Alamo.

When they get to the prison his only option will be a North Korean style massed human wave assault with a poorly trained force. The Governor is hoping to take the prison, kill all of the defenders then assume defensive positions within the much more easily defended walls with his surviving assault force. The battle of course will be lost from the first shot. Being militarily blind due to a lack of proper recon he has no clue the Prison just doubled the size of its fighting force with high quality recruits, his poorly trained militia will take heavy losses and crack. Even if they are successful the masses of walkers attracted to the sounds of battle will trap them in the prison which may not hold because of the damage they inflict getting inside in the first place.


Surprised no one responded to this point,
Michonne took out a few of the Governor's lackeys when she escaped Merle, Rick & Co. killed another 5-7 +1 more by Maggie with a Walker-shiv. At a MINIMUM that's 9 of the Gov's automatic-weapon carrying goons. Or put it another way, if the population of Woodbury is 75 people then -10 is a SIGNIFICANT % of the overall population.

Now I don't really care about the #s per-se, but rather the way all season the Governor's armed thugs have been given a shadier, in-the-know identity of their own, completely separate from the Woodbury civilians. To be able to lose 10, or rather 11 counting Merle now being under arrest, and still have Woodbury APPEAR atmosphere-wise the same armed cordon surrounding a squishy civilian center just bugs the ever-loving shit out of me.

Put still another way. Let's say the Governor had a total of 25 men on his shady, murdering-other-survivor-groups death squad roster. 25 is about how many guys he'd need in that capacity to lose 10-11 and have things still look about normal with the same # of guys back on the wall, acting as internal security etc etc. That would mean that 1 in 3 people in Woodbury are in on all the Governor's dastardly, ordering them to bring heads back for him, deeds. Thematically speaking, the writers/director have made Woodbury look and feel as if the large majority of the inhabitants are completely clueless of the Governor's darker activities.

So how does that align with the major # of casualties the Governor's thugs suffered as a result of the rescue-raid by Rick & Co.? On one level it makes sense that's why the Governor is now using propaganda to twist the civilians of Woodbury into willing conscripts for his counterattack, but on another there's no hint that losing 11 of his cronies (and that's a MINIMUM count. The actual # could be 14 or 15) has done anything to weaken the Governor's police-state. There's STILL plenty of guys with automatic weapons crowded near Merle and Daryl, and quite a few more on the outskirts of the crowd. This is what I find difficult to reconcile, because of the MAJOR IMPACT on the story depending on just how many thugs the Governor lost.

I mean, I'd HATE to see them essentially replaced as faceless redshirts with a lame excuse like "Oh, the Governor just recruited more of them from amongst the menfolk of Woodbury." Out of 75-80 people he was DAMNED LUCKY to be able to assemble 15-25 depraved killers that are ALSO stable enough to control long-term. Your average meth-shooting former biker just isn't gonna cover it in most cases...and it's not like the Governor can wave a magic wand and make another few dozen survivors appear.

See what I'm getting at here? It isn't a nitpick about camera angles. It's a problem that will have a pivotal part to play when Round 2 happens at the Prison.

[Neil]

Yeah. The spoiler policy seems to have been thrown out the window.
I thought it was just me being over reactive in other threads but people just don't stop and think for a second that someone else might not know what they know.

Apologise if that's the case. The mods can't see everything.

1) If you see what you think is a spoiler, then please report it.
2) If you are posting ANY information that could be considered a spoiler then TAG IT!

[MinionZombie]

I made some memes for the mid-season finale (put them in spoiler tags so they would take up less space on people's screens):



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-cI6exvt7AAg/UL3MxqeCe2I/AAAAAAAABFs/YXB9TPg20pw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Tyreese_Heard_New_G uy_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--hUr7-dU2R4/UL3Mhp6ygqI/AAAAAAAABFk/GLamVsK5y74/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Axel_Dating_Tips_00 1_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-RcT07UNmfMc/UL3NHLewNtI/AAAAAAAABF0/BFyBlZApeL0/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Axel_Dating_Tips_00 2_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hES7W_K9Eag/UL3NXVyftpI/AAAAAAAABF8/lskifYWafes/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Axel_Dating_Tips_00 3_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oiXVfBoOC3U/UL3NujM8p6I/AAAAAAAABGE/9LOEEOPXmMw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Michonne_Joke_LOL_D eadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_l_7TS_HY30/UL3OI44Z8RI/AAAAAAAABGM/EUPiLSyjUQc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Michonne_Not_Amused _Witticism_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6LqTICOwFQU/UL3OW_f4ZvI/AAAAAAAABGU/SdL71GAjHO0/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Michonne_Not_LOL_De adShed.jpg



http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/axels-dating-tips-michonne-on-humour.html

:)

- - - Updated - - -


Yeah. Nothing against Daryl. I call for his death every season. :evil: Its tradition. He will have to take a backseat though now a REAL badass in Tyreese is on the scene. Loved what I saw of him though. Cool, calm and collected. And of course, there's the hammer.

Ditto, Tyreese rocked the joint when he showed up. Very glad to have his character on board ... shame Oscar had to die, though.


It has been confirmed by Chad Coleman that Sasha is his younger Sister, and the couple were Donna and Allen and their son Ben.

Good to know. I was figuring that was probably the case, but wasn't quite sure.


You are right about clothing and blood. Seeing skin on Maggie and her sexy tank tops makes for great eye candy. But long sleeves are beyond smart. Who would want to die from a cheap preventable bite. Not sure why they would let their guard down. Full gear in season one and no protection now.
Complacency maybe or have they resigned to the fact that since they are all infected they don't worry so much. I myself wouldn't be too keen with walker blood on me. The realism has faded a bit for sure.

I do worry about them all having bare arms (perhaps it's a practical concern for the actors too, being in the Georgia heat?) ... I would like to see them covering up when taking on walkers/going out on excursions ... I reckon they're all trying to pinch Daryl's style. :lol:

In terms of bacteria etc - I'd imagine that'd be a real headache to stick very close to, and it'd cut off so many options for the writers, so a bit of suspension of disbelief is in order. They've never really gone into the specifics of infection, and it's probably best that they don't stray into that territory too much, otherwise half the show would be about them getting the wet wipes and hand gel out every five minutes. :p

I would like to see more attention paid to covering bare flesh though - Milton's jacket/shirt with the protective sleeves was a good example of this, and I dug how it was an element of adapting to the world around you.


The nice thing about this series is it's not predictable, at least not for me. I really though Andrea my just shoot Michonne!

I keep up-to-date with the trade paperbacks (which means I'm behind those who read the individual issues of the comic every month), and I'm constantly surprised by the show, or always on-edge during various scenes as I don't quite know where they're going to go, or you're so caught up in the moment that you get taken by surprise. I knew that The Governor lost his eye, but I didn't see it coming during his scuffle with Michonne as it was so raw and swift, and I actually jumped and winced when he was stabbed in the eye (I also noticed that she breaks off a chunk of the glass shard in the process too - double ouch!).


Yeah. The spoiler policy seems to have been thrown out the window.
I thought it was just me being over reactive in other threads but people just don't stop and think for a second that someone else might not know what they know.

I try to keep comic spoilers separated with spoiler tags, and being someone who keeps up with with the trade paperbacks, perhaps there are certain bits of posted info that swim past me (i.e. I know them as I've read the trade paperbacks, but I don't make the connection that they haven't quite arrived on the show yet). Apologies if so. :(

Is there something specific you can point to? Also - just thought - is it also to do with mentioning alternative plot paths from the comics, i.e. speaking of comic events that are happening on the show right now, but pointing out some differences to how it occurred in the comic?

It's easy to keep the TV show spoilers controlled, but when it comes to the comics cross-pollenating with the TV show discussion, it gets into a more confusing/easy-to-miss area. We must be careful, folks.

Therefore a note to all posters - if you're mentioning something to do with the comics that HAS NOT HAPPENED IN THE SHOW YET, please use the spoiler tags (as Neil has mentioned) and always take a "better safe than making someone else sorry" approach.

[krisvds]

Good episode, enjoyed it.
I'm still waiting for the governor to be revealed as the insane, evil bastard from the comic books, but I guess that wont happen in the tv series. He's just a bit too balanced. The writers go out of their way making him sympathetic. Now that the cards are on the table Andrea still buys the 'the heads were there to prepare me for the horrors outside' spin?
I sure hope he goes a bit more 'ballistic' in the second half.

Tyreese rocked! Good to see the extra characters show up. They'll probably need the extra hands come episode 9 and onwards ;)

[MinionZombie]

Good episode, enjoyed it.
I'm still waiting for the governor to be revealed as the insane, evil bastard from the comic books, but I guess that wont happen in the tv series. He's just a bit too balanced. The writers go out of their way making him sympathetic. Now that the cards are on the table Andrea still buys the 'the heads were there to prepare me for the horrors outside' spin?
I sure hope he goes a bit more 'ballistic' in the second half.

Tyreese rocked! Good to see the extra characters show up. They'll probably need the extra hands come episode 9 and onwards ;)

We've still got the second half to come - plenty of time for the writers to gradually ratchet up the crazy with The Governor. His loss of Penny is a key moment - it severs his tenuous links with decency and normality - now the gloves are off and the eye patch is on. :elol:

As for Andrea - clearly she was disturbed, but it's such a shocking image and you're so discombobulated by not only finding that Michonne has snuck back in and attacked this man (who, from all of Andrea's known information about him, is a pretty decent guy), but that there's a zombie child snuffed out on the floor, Philip's got an eye out, and there's an attack happening right now (by persons unidentified by Andrea herself). As the preview for February showed (at the end of the episode) she wants to reconnect with her group (now knowing them to be alive - due to Daryl being captured), and The Governor even refers to not knowing where her loyalties lie.

I'd wager that Andrea returns to the Ricktatorship - particularly when she sees The Governor resorting to mob rule/justic over the "terrorists". The veil has been lifted, the illusion has been shattered.

[bassman]

I think it's safe to assume The Governor will be more and more evil as the season progresses. After these events, I feel like he's becoming more of the guy we know from the comic. His last scene of the episode was quite disturbing.

His new jacket was pretty cool, too. Something "evil dictator" about it. And we also get to look forward to the eye patch! Yay for visual similarities...

[Wyldwraith]

Agreed,
The Governor doesn't have the resources anymore to divide his activities between clandestine deathsquad and amiable political leader. The fact he's already trying to whip the mob up into a frenzy based on their fear of the unknown and anger at having their safe haven violated is indicative of the fact that in the Governor's mind all that remains is retribution against the people who destroyed his lovingly crafted dreams of Megalomaniac Paradise. The people of Woodbury are now nothing more to him than warm bodies to be used as cannon fodder.

Given the nature of the prison, it's a fool's errand to try and dig Rick & Co. out of there with barely-trained civilians and a small handful of guys who know how to shoot. In his heart of hearts, I'm not even sure the GOVERNOR believes he can take them, but he'll go through with the attack because it will hurt Rick & Co. when some of their people die in such a massed assault. The Governor's only real shot is figuring out how to somehow mass and corral the movements of a large # of Walkers, and funnel them through into the prison's grounds, let Rick & Co. deplete ammo and energy eliminating the Walkers, and THEN attack. Don't know how he'd manage it, but as we saw at the camp massacre way back in Season 1 it IS possible. Admittedly trying to use Walkers against enemies with a host of extremely sturdy barred doors they can lock at will to create risk-free killzones is a great deal different than just driving a box truck full of Walkers to the area near an exposed outdoor camp and simply turning them loose.

It should make for an extremely interesting showdown, because though quite different in composition, the opposing forces are relatively equal in strength all things considered. Looking forward to it :)

[facestabber]

I just dont know about Andrea. She always acted like she was so poorly treated with Rick and Co. I can see her returning to Woodbury. She has a big ego and returning to Rick would hurt it. The last she knew the vehicles were driving away and none came back to her. She is probably carrying some animosity there. I think we will learn alot about her seeing how vocal she is for Daryl. She shot the man in the head for one. He quickly accepted her apology and acknowledged that she was "just trying to protect the group". Daryl never bossed her around but treated her as an equal. Ofcourse I was wrong about Glen and Maggie's fate so I may be off here too.

[Neil]

I just dont know about Andrea. She always acted like she was so poorly treated with Rick and Co. I can see her returning to Woodbury. She has a big ego and returning to Rick would hurt it. The last she knew the vehicles were driving away and none came back to her. She is probably carrying some animosity there. I think we will learn alot about her seeing how vocal she is for Daryl. She shot the man in the head for one. He quickly accepted her apology and acknowledged that she was "just trying to protect the group". Daryl never bossed her around but treated her as an equal. Ofcourse I was wrong about Glen and Maggie's fate so I may be off here too.
Nice that it's not predictable isn't it.

Talking of guesses...
My gut tells me Merle is gonna die saving Daryl!

[babomb]

Carol and Axel were out keeping watch in the guard tower when Carl heard the screams coming from inside the prison. You know what happens in the guard tower!?

Michonne had plenty of chances to kill the Gov during that fight. Rick had an opportunity to pick up a shotgun after killing "not Shane" but didn't act on it. If not take it, destroy it in order to deny the enemy...

[rongravy]

My gut tells me Merle is gonna die saving Daryl!
Same! Redemption time.
Yay for me. I'm a first time spoiler tag user!!!

[facestabber]

Nice that it's not predictable isn't it.

Talking of guesses...
My gut tells me Merle is gonna die saving Daryl!

I think you have a good guess. Had Merle stayed in good favor with the gov I was predicting Daryl would have to kill him to save a group member

[Christopher Jon]

I think you have a good guess. Had Merle stayed in good favor with the gov I was predicting Daryl would have to kill him to save a group member

Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought.

[zombieparanoia]

Man, I would NOT want to be a black actor cast on this show, everytime another black guy shows up, you get killed.

[AcesandEights]

I feel sorry for non-comic fans that are reading this thread. You guys are dropping comic spoilers like there's no tomorrow....

Finally got to see this week's episode and I'm reading through and thinking the exact same thing.

Anyway, some great points! I was pissed when the episode ended, though...we need an extra long season finale in 2013!

- - - Updated - - -


Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought.

Damn...you should go into politics or the lawyerly arts! Good point, Christopher Jon.

[rgc2005]

The more I think about it the more I think Merle could survive and serve as an external 'sometimes Ally/Pain in the Azz' to the group. Merle is now way to popular a character to completely kill off of the show. They are going to have to find a way to work him into the story line. There is no way Merle, Rick and Glenn can coexist but Daryl will not willingly allow anything nefarious happen to his blood. Perhaps Merle will become the show's version of "Harry Mudd" or that new character from the comics who looks strangely familiar.

[Wyldwraith]

I disagree,
I don't perceive nearly so much love or fascination with Merle, especially after the first half of Season 3. In fact, I think his "best fate" is dying to save Daryl and at least somewhat redeeming himself. The show makes a point of eliminating characters once they cross a certain moral line, and Merle has BOUNDED over that line. Merle's a replaceable thug, distinctive ONLY by his being Daryl's sibling. He was 90% an antagonist character by Ep. 2 of Season 1, and he's 110% antagonist now. Daryl may now want anything to happen to Merle, but after what Merle was a part of with Maggie (bringing them in at gunpoint, which lead to what the Governor pulled) and turning loose a Walker on Glenn while he was strapped to a chair with the CLEAR intent to kill Glenn (As evidenced by his racist comment about the Walker being hungry again in an hour because Glenn's Asian...food) there is no way the group would tolerate his presence no matter how advantageous. Glenn, Maggie or Herschel (once he finds out the details) would all shoot Merle dead on sight and spit in the eye of anyone who didn't like it.

When someone reduces you to dismembering a disease-ridden corpse to use its bones as weapons, and you find yourself having to stab someone in the throat with said bone...and Merle's still right there smirking to foil the escape attempt...no...I think it's safe to say most viewers think Merle has "earned" his death. He's 10x more violent and unstable than Shane, with a clear capacity/willingness to align himself with the most depraved of human beings. If Rick & Co. let him live, what's to say Merle won't be back, this time at the head of a Dawn-style gang of raiders? Don't you think his stint in Woodbury has given him a taste for power and the satisfaction of commanding the fear of others?

Merle is a bigot, a psychopath and completely without redemptive qualities. Even his attachment to his brother reveals his corruption. When he and the Governor were discussing Daryl not getting hurt when they took the prison from Rick & Co., Merle has no problem with his brother having to buy his life at the price of being a snitch and traitor to those who've helped him survive. Daryl didn't start becoming a decent guy until he was out from under his brother's corrupt influence. Allow Merle to run free, and with easy access to Daryl and Merle's first act would be trying to force Daryl to come with him and ditch "Officer Friendly's Bunch."

Aside from all these good, sensible reasons there's this. I DESPISE Merle even more than I loathe the Governor, and I would be quite disappointed if he survived Season 3. What else is there to illustrate about the character? He's a bigot, check. He's violent and uses violence as a first resort, yet is hypocritical in condemning people for applying the same standard AGAINST him...and he has a distinct taste if not need for power/dominance over those around him. Hell, the VERY FIRST TIME we see Merle he's trying to "elect" himself group leader via holding the others at gunpoint. Check, Check, Check please.

[shootemindehead]

Well, that was intense!

I see the show is still suffering somewhat from dodgy areas in writing.

I agree completely with Wyld regarding the shard of glass in the Gov's eye. Like the "zombie smell thing", the "zombie infection thing" seems to be absolutely random. Big Black Guy #5 gets scraped by a zombie's broken wrist after it loses a hand wriggling out of a pair of handcuffs and he's whacked because he's deemed to be buggered. But the Gov can get a shard of glass in his eye socket that's riddled with zombie gick and all is hunky dory?

There's something not right there.

The show needs to get its lore in order and remain consistent.

Other than little annoyances like that, the real PITA is having to wait ages for the next bleedin episode.

- - - Updated - - -


Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought.

Yeh. I got that vibe too. Merle could be a shill for the Gov's rabble rousing "terrorists" propaganda.

[facestabber]

Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought.

Ah crap you may be right. It's the perfect head fake by the writers. The viewers all know that Merle lied to gov about Michonne dying. So the viewers are expecting the gov to seek revenge on Merle. Public labeling as terrorists. Let them escape or leave as an act of mercy(politician side of gov winning hearts and minds). Infiltrate the prison and gather intel from Daryl. Can't wait till feb

[bassman]

Man, I would NOT want to be a black actor cast on this show, everytime another black guy shows up, you get killed.

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show.

[MinionZombie]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show.

Just a bit of fun, I'm sure. A funny little coincidence - ripe for memes - just like Carl's aversion to staying indoors. :p

As for the notion of Merle being a Woodbury mole on the inside of the prison - it's a possibility. He did declare his allegience to Woodbury (albeit after a pause for thought) in an earlier scene, so it could be a double-agent sort of deal ... that'd be interesting.

Like others, I too think that if Merle has to die at some point, it'll be a redemptive act, such as saving our buddy Daryl.

[kidgloves]

I've got a soft spot for Merle and I kind of feel sorry for the Governor :p
I really don't think Merle is working for the Gov undercover. Bit of a stretch don't you think? I can see both Dixon's making it back to the prison and Glen maybe murdering Merle in some sort of twisted revenge.
I'm also liking Axel a lot. The show needs some quality comedy relief and both the actor and character seem up for it.

[mista_mo]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show.

It's all about the timing. As soon as T-dogg was killed, Oscar took his place. The episode that Tyreese was introduced, Oscar gets killed. And it's not like T-dogg and Oscar were very well developed characters either. T-dogg was with the show up to the 3rd season, and he had maybe an entire episodes worth of lines throughout his term on the show. Oscar had almost none either, and I think he spoke 2 or 3 times during his last episode. I just got the impression they used the introduction, and subsequent deaths of these characters as a way to show the viewers that people do die in the show, without actually killing off anyone of any consequence, aside from Lori, shane and Dale of course. Also, T-dogg never replace Morgan. We only saw him for the pilot, and aside from that nothing has been said about him since what..a couple episodes into the second season? I'm betting that if we do see him again...

he is going to be how he was in the comics, when he and Rick are reintroduced.

[rgc2005]

Having read the comic book up to #104 I definitely get Deja Vu when I see the TV version of Woodbury. Kirkman said in interviews leading up to the airing of the first TV episode that he saw this as a chance to redo what he considered mistakes. Things like Rick's Hand, the unbelievably evil Woodbury and the death of Shane. Three seasons later Rick still has his hand, Shane lived for quite a while and Woodbury, along with its leader, looks and feels like that other town way down the road. I am certain that he is merging the two storylines. If Kirkman is crossing his streams this means if Merle continues to live on the show he will become a much more vicious enemy than the TV Governor ever could become.

[zombieparanoia]

I keep reading this across the net and I just don't get it. So T-dog died after Oscar's arrival and Oscar died after Tyreese's arrival. Would you also say that Lori had to die because of Judith's arrival? Characters die....that's TWD. What does race have to do with it? Not to mention....Morgan didn't die when T-dog was introduced and he's one of the greatest characters in the show.

Really? You don't get it? So the only black male protagonist character on the show dies in the same episode as the next one being introduced not once but twice (so far) doesn't seem weird to you? As far as Morgan, T-dog hadn't even been introduced yet. And we never saw Morgan again did we? I'd be willing to bet money that Tyreese dies in the same episode or within an episode of the next black male protagonist being introduced.

It's not like dale died as soon as they found hershel, they didn't introduce beth and then immediately kill amy or sophia. And yes, lori did have to die because of the introduction of judith, she had an emergency c-section with a pocketknife by an untrained person on a workshop floor in an abandoned prison full of zombies.:duh:

I do like how the black male character is getting more eloquent and charismatic as the iterations continue, T-dog = "Dammmnnnn yo!" Oscar "I've never begged for my life and I'm not about to start now.." speech and so far Tyreese looks like he's about to get his MLK on, at this rate pretty soon they'll have morgan freeman or sidney poitier on board.

[krisvds]

I'm with Minion and Bass on the black character thing. Surely it's a coincidence. You are not seriously suggesting that the writers sit around a table discussing a limit to the amount of 'black' characters in the show? Can't we just talk about characters without bringing race into it? It's not really a 'thing.' At least not to me. Doesn't feel that way when watching the show. The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne?
Like Minion said: no more than a bit of fun, good for a few memes, played for laughs.

Now that with Tyreese we have a bit of The Wire in our favourite zombie show things are looking up on the good actor front: both him and the governor are excellent.

[mista_mo]

The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne?

She's the only black female in the show, plus she is a fan favourite from the comic books. I don't think she is going anywhere for a long time.

[Wyldwraith]

If Michonne stays she's GOT to improve,
One dramatic fight scene does not redress the one-dimensional nature of her characterization and dialog. Daryl is an excellent example of the man of action/man of few words motif....whereas Michonne is so uncommunicative you begin to wonder if she was raised by Walkers from childhood (lol). Seriously though, the monosyllabic responses...the chip on her shoulder towards EVERYONE....it's already tired. I'm to the point that if I see Michonne come onscreen I judge the events occurring to see if combat is imminent. If not, I just sort of glaze over where she's concerned.

What I hate the most is how people will state one or more sentences to her, and she'll just stare at them like a retarded deaf-mute....or at BEST reply with a declarative sort of almost-one-liners. Then, when she does choose to speak (during the raid of Woodbury) it's a simple statement of the completely obvious. Of COURSE Rick & Co. need her to help bust Daryl out if that's their intent.

There have been many characters on this show so far that have said as much or more through their acting as opposed to their dialog. It didn't prevent them from speaking up when necessary, and that singles Michonne out with a vibe that simply isn't interesting.

[MinionZombie]

Regarding Michonne, I think 3x08 was her best episode yet. She wasn't over-the-top in terms of the katana stuff, and she had a broad range of emotions to show - real shock and surprise at Philip's version of televised entertainment, and caring and concerned side when she thought she'd found a captive child, then the surprise of finding out Penny was a walker, then that look of the upper hand when she had power over The Governor who was pleading for Michonne not to snuff out undead-Penny, then the kick arse rough & tumble fight, then the encounter with Andrea, and all the stuff where she was not exactly a help but also not exactly a hindrance to Rick & Co as they crowd around that car and train carriage.

So I thought this was definitely the strongest episode for Michonne - I imagine that she's the sort of character that takes time to develop, both on-screen and behind-the-scenes for the writers and directors and Danai Gurira herself. They have to figure Michonne out and test the boundaries - they'll be learning as they go along, like most shows, but the good thing with TWD is they truly do learn from their little mistakes along the way, while ratchetting up all the best things about the show to unbelievable heights. :)

On the black character replacement thing - yeah, it's a coincidence, they're not doing it deliberately, but of course it's just happened that way and it looks a bit silly/funny/iffy. Ideal for meme making, but it's not some conspiracy either - just a happenstance that stands out a bit-too much. Perhaps they're already more mindful of that now ... but really, when it came to Oscar during that raid, he was the only character in that moment who was expendable. It's a daring raid, and chances are someone's going to die (otherwise it'd appear that Woodbury's defences aren't good enough, and that the Ricktatorship have a God Mode cheat enabled :p), and in that scenario it was only Oscar who was expendable ... a damn shame though as I was liking his character ... I wonder if he ever got to relax at the end of a day in those slippers he found?

[zombieparanoia]

I'm with Minion and Bass on the black character thing. Surely it's a coincidence. You are not seriously suggesting that the writers sit around a table discussing a limit to the amount of 'black' characters in the show? Can't we just talk about characters without bringing race into it? It's not really a 'thing.' At least not to me. Doesn't feel that way when watching the show.

No, I'm not suggesting the writers sit around and talk about racial quotas, but lets look at the reality here, given the racial diversity of the US, why is there only one asian character in the entire show, the black male protagonists appear to have a limit of one and the only hispanic characters seen on the show were portrayed as housekeepers and care aids who acted like chicano gangsters? why not just write them in as taco vendors and fruit pickers?

Let's face it, white people seem to have done pretty well in this zombie apocalypse, just look at the people in the background at woodbury, not really a lot of ethnic diversity is there?


The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne?


Angry black woman who doesn't like white people telling her what to do? Totally not a stereotype.


Like Minion said: no more than a bit of fun, good for a few memes, played for laughs.

I think it's the horror movie law of ethnicity; they either have to be cannon fodder, the only character of their race or a stereotype.







On the black character replacement thing - yeah, it's a coincidence, they're not doing it deliberately, but of course it's just happened that way and it looks a bit silly/funny/iffy. Ideal for meme making, but it's not some conspiracy either - just a happenstance that stands out a bit-too much. Perhaps they're already more mindful of that now ... but really, when it came to Oscar during that raid, he was the only character in that moment who was expendable.

Why expendable? Rick, Carl, Daryl and Hershel have all been shot and survived just fine. He was expendable because his replacement had arrived. He got redshirted as soon as another black guy showed up.

[rongravy]

Dang, it's getting all racial up in this piece.
:D

[bassman]

Dang, it's getting all racial up in this piece.
:D

Yeah, it seems to me that people suggesting TWD writers are racist are actually the real racists. If someone dies I see it as a character's death.....apparently these people see it as a black guy's death. Who's really working on the racist mentality, here? :p

[babomb]

Yeah, it seems to me that people suggesting TWD writers are racist are actually the real racists. If someone dies I see it as a character's death.....apparently these people see it as a black guy's death. Who's really working on the racist mentality, here? :p This.^

Racism doesn't only mean you hate people of other races. It's also a mindset where everything breaks down into terms of race, even when it doesn't. I'm sure the writers are made up of other races beside white. They're just not thinking in terms of race.
It's annoying also when the cast of a show or movie is made up of all different races, just for the sake of racial diversity. Makes it seem like a commercial for Kmart or the Gap.
I think that the reason for the replacements of the black actors is to keep everyone on their toes. The writers know that all the comic fans are waiting for Tyreese. So they're keeping people guessing.
It's not a racially motivated thing.

[kidgloves]

I agree with Bassman and Babomb.
If you need to distinguish between people by the colour of their skin you need to ask yourself why.

[Suicycho]

Its just the way TV works.

A blond female character leaves, another blonde female joins the cast. A brunette female leaves, another brunette joins the cast. A complicated man with a troubled past leaves the show, another complicated man with a troubled past replaces him.

Its how all TV shows work. They develop a formula that works for their particular show, and they DO NOT break it.

Thats why TV characters never change tooo much. Sure, they go through their trials and minor character development, but never enough to take them out of the "brand" the audience has gotten used too.

[rongravy]

So, wait. If they get rid of Daryl, they're going to find another sleeveless redneck to immediately jump into his spot?
Or if Carol bites it, we're getting another dykish looking, grey haired cougar type?
:elol:
Just kidding. It's all good.
Just don't ever get rid of the zombies.
That's my fave part of the show...

[Neil]

Its just the way TV works.

A blond female character leaves, another blonde female joins the cast. A brunette female leaves, another brunette joins the cast. A complicated man with a troubled past leaves the show, another complicated man with a troubled past replaces him.

Its how all TV shows work. They develop a formula that works for their particular show, and they DO NOT break it.

Thats why TV characters never change tooo much. Sure, they go through their trials and minor character development, but never enough to take them out of the "brand" the audience has gotten used too.

Sorry, didn't notice a katana wielding, de-jawed zombies on chains, black female die in Season 2 to allow Michonne in? :)

[MinionZombie]

Why expendable? Rick, Carl, Daryl and Hershel have all been shot and survived just fine. He was expendable because his replacement had arrived. He got redshirted as soon as another black guy showed up.

Expendable because he was the least developed character out of them all, he'd only just been introduced, and as a non-comic character, he didn't have a load of potential plotlines laid out before him.

With T-Dog I think they genuinely forgot about him (or, rather, they just didn't have the screen time for him with everyone else to deal with at the time), but not out of intent or malicious purposes, and that's something they re-dressed in season three, it's just a shame he wasn't able to stick around, but we did feel his loss. His death wasn't just tossed in there either.

Tiny didn't last long (I kinda liked him), Andrew was an arsehole, but so was Tomas. I would have liked Oscar to stick around for longer, but I've mentioned before why it'd be a bit daft to have a massive gunfight and for none of Team Prison to bite the dust.

Now, as said elsewhere, Tyreese is who we've really been waiting for - so he's gonna stick around for a good long while, and hopefully his little sister Sasha will as well.

As for Rick - well he's the central character, the whole point in the comics is to follow one man over a long period of time and watch him change, likewise it's key to keep Carl around for the father/son dynamic, and to see how a child from the normal world re-develops under these circumstances. Daryl is a firm fan favourite and the show makers would be morons to kill him off - the fan backlash would be huge - plus, as I've said a few times in the past, if he does have to die at some point, it'd have to be far into the future and in such a manner that it was a truly fitting death. He also provides extremely valuable survival skills that benefit the entire group and allow them to keep living in this world.

Hershel, likewise, provides necessary skills - but if any other folk with medical training turn up, he'd better watch his back. However with his leg missing, his days are numbered in an on-the-road scenario. There's a scythe hanging over Hershel's head - it's not going to drop any time soon, but it's hanging there ... waiting.

...

Looking at the new arrivals, I can see Allen's son Ben being readily expendable.

I guess the problem with the replacement thing is that, while not intended to be that way, events have conspired to allow themselves to be read that way if people choose to do so.

Dale died and that saved Hershel's life, as it was initially going to be the other way around. There are plot concerns driving those, but you could just as easily read that as "two old white guys, one has to die" ... whereas it was more about dramatic concerns, and no doubt in DeMunn's situation, behind-the-scenes issues that unfortunately went awry.

[shootemindehead]

Ummm...that race angle is a bit weird.

In fact, I think the probucers have gone out of their way to introduce black characters, even when extra characters weren't needed. Black Girl #264 in season 1, T-Dawg ( :rolleyes: ) etc. They weren't in the original source material and they were SOOO superfluous, that the writers didn't know what to do with them.

Also, people have been waiting for Michonne and Tyreese to show up and at some stage I reckon Morgan (and maybe his kid) will show up too.

I actually think there's more than enough racial diversity in the show? :confused:

[MinionZombie]

Ummm...that race angle is a bit weird.

In fact, I think the probucers have gone out of their way to introduce black characters, even when extra characters weren't needed. Black Girl #264 in season 1, T-Dawg ( :rolleyes: ) etc. They weren't in the original source material and they were SOOO superfluous, that the writers didn't know what to do with them.

Also, people have been waiting for Michonne and Tyreese to show up and at some stage I reckon Morgan (and maybe his kid) will show up too.

I actually think there's more than enough racial diversity in the show? :confused:

Plus, it's also important to have enough character diversity.

If it was just a bunch of middle-aged middle class suburbanites, you'd be quite limited. Another great thing about The Walking Dead is that it brings together disparate types of people from disparate parts of pre-apocalypse society and both pits them against one another, and teams them up, and changes their characters over time.

[Tricky]

Whoa awesome episode and February seems a long way off all of a sudden! Good to see they've brought Tyreese into it, and the final scene with the governor & the Dixon brothers had me right on edge, I wonder if we'll lose one or the other, or both? Really enjoying season 3, and Glen Mazzara knows it :D
1176

One thing that hasn't been explained though, why is the governor happy to be surrounded by survivors in Woodbury, but is hell bent on wiping out any other group that exists outside of it even if they're miles away and their chances of finding Woodbury are slim? Does he just feel his rule would be threatened by others or is there more to it? Or is he just a plain, simple, old fashioned bad guy with his henchmen as in the comics?
I winced when that shard of glass got stuck in his eye, and when they showed the damage later :eek:


Oh and I don't know about y'all, but I've got a crush on Michonne (well, Danai who plays her), when she's not scowling she's rather fit :o :p

[LoSTBoY]

Ha! Daryl and Mur are finally reunited.

Fuck the blood thirsty crowd, nothing can kill the brothers.

*Realises this is TWD*

Awww FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!

[Moon Knight]

IronE Singleton stated that T-Dog was supposed to only last like 3 episodes and all of a sudden he was filming season 3 lol He seemed really grateful and is a very humble dude IRL.

[MinionZombie]

Tricky - it'll be because The Governor wants to continue being the man in charge. To him it's his job to keep these people alive, and to keep his community strong. Anyone from the outside - a large group particularly - is considered a threat. He took out the military guys because they're a greater threat, so he used underhanded methods to achieve that, and then took their gear to strengthen his position. Likewise he just wants to keep Woodbury as a little enclave surrounded by nothing living.

We may have to wait until February, but that does mean we don't have to sit through those ruddy awful "Joop Homme Wild!" adverts eight times an episode ... "gooooooood ... baaaaaaaaad" ... how about "fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck offfffffffffffffffffffffff"? I thought the those Joop ads during season two were annoying ("real men wear pink!" :rolleyes:), but these are even worse.

[kidgloves]

Big fish. Little pond.
Classic middle management by our buddy the Governor

[Buzzbomb]

Merle could still be working for the Gov. Just a thought.


Ah crap you may be right. It's the perfect head fake by the writers. The viewers all know that Merle lied to gov about Michonne dying. So the viewers are expecting the gov to seek revenge on Merle. Public labeling as terrorists. Let them escape or leave as an act of mercy(politician side of gov winning hearts and minds). Infiltrate the prison and gather intel from Daryl. Can't wait till feb

Hmmm... that would explain how the Governor knew their prisoner was Merle's brother. How else would he have known? Andrea seemed genuinely surprised, but Merle's reaction seemed a bit fake.

[MinionZombie]

Hmmm... that would explain how the Governor knew their prisoner was Merle's brother. How else would he have known? Andrea seemed genuinely surprised, but Merle's reaction seemed a bit fake.

Either Merle was acting, or he's just more stoic in his responses - there was a good deal of difference between Merle and Daryl (or "Derle" as Merle seems to call him, hehe), with Daryl appearing to be quite scared for the first time in a long, long time. Merle's the big brother and this is home turf, so he's not going to be quite as disturbed by it all, whereas Daryl is so on the back foot here he's like an animal backed into a corner looking for a way out. It was a nice touch to show that vulnerable side of Daryl so he's not just super adept in any given situation - he does have fear, he can be rendered weak etc.

Of course, if Merle is about to do an inside job, then that would explain why he's less bothered than you might expect - but it could just as easily be Merle being more of a tough case and acting as the big brother. Daryl, when he was a kid growing up, would always be subjugated by Merle, so I suppose in this extreme situation, that early socialisation creeps back in.

One thing though - if this is a set-up by Merle and The Governor, how would the Guv know that a rescue would be about to happen (as glimpsed in the end-of-episode teaser for 3x09) ... but then again, they came back for Glenn and Maggie, so why would they necessarily leave Daryl? But then you've gathered a mob and it appears as if you'll be having a live execution ... unless he'd then say "we're going to pump him for knowledge first, be right back" ... ... oh, those tricksy Walking Dead writers. :D

[red max]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but Tyreese is played by 'Cutty', the very cool boxing coach in The Wire. Great choice!

[AcesandEights]

I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but Tyreese is played by 'Cutty', the very cool boxing coach in The Wire. Great choice!

You're right, I don't think anyone had mentioned it, but damn was I stoked when I saw him on screen at the beginning of the episode!

[krisvds]

Hey, I mentioned my favourite tv series on page 5. I assumed everyone knew who Cutty was ...

[AcesandEights]

Hey, I mentioned my favourite tv series on page 5. I assumed everyone knew who Cutty was ...

You expect me to remember further than one page back?!?!

Madness!

[Moon Knight]

Never seen The Wire but Coleman as Tyreese is spot on! I can't wait to see more of the character.

[Staredge]

The little proposed theory doesn't really add up either: what about Michonne?


It's worse for the sisters.....they only have one every other season. :evil: What's her face died in the CDC, last episode season one. Michonne shows up, last episode season two.

[krisvds]

It's worse for the sisters.....they only have one every other season. :evil: What's her face died in the CDC, last episode season one. Michonne shows up, last episode season two.

Hmmm. And what about the elderly? Surely Dale had to go because Herschel became a part of the gang instead of remaining the grumpy farmer - outsider? If I were old Hersch I'd keep my eyes peeled for the introduction of any 60+ year olds in the future.

But wait! What if they start introducing 60+ year old black women? That would be like cutting a zero in the very fabric of the space/time continuum. Right?

[AcesandEights]

Hmmm. And what about the elderly?

What about the members of law enforcement?

There can be only one (of each trope)!

[Wyldwraith]

@Aces:
Now THAT was funny! ::golf claps::
Highlander humor FTW.

[JonOfTheShred]

But wait! What if they start introducing 60+ year old black women? That would be like cutting a zero in the very fabric of the space/time continuum. Right?

:elol: