TWD 3x11 "I Ain't A Judas" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The eleventh episode of season three - keep your discussion of 3x11 "I Ain't A Judas" to this thread, and away from the shoutbox, and as always keep any future comic book storylines/spoilers within "spoiler tags" (if you don't know how to use spoiler tags, go to the HPOTD FAQ and look up the section on 'BB Codes') - and finally, ENJOY THE DISCUSSION! :hyper:


“Their security threatened, Rick and the group must make a choice. With Woodbury in a police state, Andrea grows uneasy.”

Written By: Angela Kang, Directed By: Greg Nicotero

[MinionZombie]

*bump*

Should be another good one tonight - see some preview images here: http://dailydead.com/the-walking-dead-new-photos-and-videos-from-episode-311/

[rongravy]

*bump*

Should be another good one tonight - see some preview images here: http://dailydead.com/the-walking-dead-new-photos-and-videos-from-episode-311/
Very nice, especially the bald zombie that was missing both of his lower arms. Made me realize that there would probably be alot more of that than I'd have thought.

Also, but unrelated: Every week, usually by around Wednesday, I start telling my wife and kids that I've read they're killing Daryl this week, usually while I'm actually on this message board. Ha, maybe to give it some credence. Who knows?
They more than likely no longer believe me, but I still like messing with them. Can't wait until it's true, then they will be so pissed. Maybe that's the one week I shouldn't mention it to them, but they might think something's up and he's about to be a goner. Hmmmm...

[rgc2005]

Action wise a very slow episode. Nice to see Rick starting to wake up and come back around.

[Moon Knight]

Action wise a very slow episode. Nice to see Rick starting to wake up and come back around.

Agreed but oh that curb stomp...without the curb! lol

Next week looks ridiculous.

[rongravy]

I could tell they were using a puppet, and when, on that before I even saw it talked about on Talking Dead. Still cool.
Also, stop it with the girl singing already. I do not like that at all.

[facestabber]

Slower paced but that's fine by me. The prodigal daughter returns. Andrea deserved the pat down. Can't blame then. Gotta say I was thrilled that Michonne finally spoke and gave Andrea a speech she deserved to hear. Michonne saved Andreas live, basically kept her alive. Andrea turned her back on a friend for an illusion. I don't think Andrea is a bad person but she is dumb. Now Andrea and Milton scene with the zombie was amazing. Nicotero and co are really pulling off some fanominal gags.
Group hasn't learned its lesson of Axel. Plenty of places to hang out outside where there is cover. The tree line is a snipers dream. An attempt to counter from designed concealment from prison roof would be smart. I have hope for tyrese but the father and son have been pricks from day one. Safe bet they are gonna sell out prison weaknesses.

I hate the governor and when he dies I hope it's a zombie tear apart alive scene.

And to rongravy get out of here with the Daryl Dixon death scene

[AcesandEights]

I certainly don't mind the pace, but they are choosing to really wring their set pieces for all their worth and it feels like not much of substance is going on. The Governor and Andrea...it's all well gone over territory, I think. The walker mutilation is also veering back into the purposelessness of previous seasons, which just seemed to waste time this episode.


I have hope for tyrese but the father and son have been pricks from day one. Safe bet they are gonna sell out prison weaknesses.

I wouldn't disagree with them, if they did. The situations Tyrese and Co. have been through, they're choices and fates down the line could actually be a lot more interesting than Andrea or Merle's, if they're given the time to develop (but not overdeveloped, like Andrea's situation).

[MinionZombie]

I'm with Facestabber - good to see Michonne finally lay down some truth in a proper speech.

I'm getting a bit restless for Andrea to rejoin the group now - realise what we all know you will eventually already! - although, again, I don't get the sheer venom some members here reserve for Andrea. It ain't deserved. She's been on a rocky path, definitely, been the sheer hatred some spray in her general direction? Nope. Has her arc this season been perfect? Certainly not. Has it been wasted? Certainly not. It just needs a bit more pace, and some more spirit and fire from the Andrea we know - we've got a decent arc, but a flawed one. However, it was good to see her getting badass again, hacking up that walker to provide cover - she's been cooped up in Woodbury too long. We had only just gained the Andrea we know from the comics, and then she was taken away from us - but hopefully now, at long last, we'll get the full beans.

Oh yeah - F*CK YOU BEN. And Allan. They were twats from the get-go, I can't be doing with either of them. I understand how Tyreese & Co feel, but good lord - all they did was kick you out, they didn't rape and pillage you, there's women and children in their group! There's a BABY in their group for crying out loud! I reckon Sasha is a bit guilty over their collective chat with The Governor, and I know that Tyreese needs to keep his gang off the streets and away from walkers, but god damn man - you're going along with dickhead father & son combo Allan and Ben who don't give a single shit about a totally innocent baby being at the heart of all this.

I did like that it was this weird coincidence that they happened upon Andrea and Milton, but I do hope that Andrea stumbles into them again and lays some truth down on them and gets them out of there before they make a really stupid decision.

Regarding the teaser for next week - it looks like there's another town out there. Rick & Co definitely need back-up (even if a bunch of Woodbury's army are untrained softies lacking in the desperation for survival), so might we see a team-up between them to go against Woodbury? Mazzara teased that a major character would be showing up soon, so perhaps we'll find them here. I'm really eager to see next week's episode and find out what that whole bit is about.

Theory (including comic book spoiler): Might it be Morgan?! He certainly returns in the comics, and a keen-eyed member here did spot a plastic box in the background of a behind-the-scenes video labelled "Morgan". We'll see, I guess.

It was definitely quite right to have this be a more quiet, character-centric episode. There was a lot of business that needed handling with bringing Andrea back to our group (I rather dug the scene indoors where she faces off against everyone surrounding her), and crossing paths with Tyreese & Co again, and it seems silly to have a shootout or major action set piece in every episode (that really limits what you can do as a writer after all).

I dug Merle & Hershel's little amputees anonymous meeting - we're getting some more shades to him - peeling some layers, you know.

Also - the big walker scene - I easily saw it was an animatronic dummy. It was very obvious (the head movement of it versus the actor), however, I didn't mind - I was enjoying that it was an animatronic getting used. On the other hand, when I saw a preview image of that walker in the prison field, I was convinced they'd hired a double amputee, but it was just some fake half-arms (with added weight for realistic jiggle :p) with the guy's real arms tucked behind his back ... so that was an interesting case of one effect being clear, while another being really convincing.

Finally, I knocked up a couple of memes, as per the norm: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?20029-Get-out-of-here-Carl!!!!-The-TWD-memes-lols-thread&p=294902#post294902

[Neil]

Best bit of the episode for me? Carl telling dad he needs to give up his Ricktatorship! Nice!

- - - Updated - - -


Regarding the teaser for next week - it looks like there's another town out there.
I purposefully don't want those :) Don't want anything spoiled for the next episode!

[Tricky]

although, again, I don't get the sheer venom some members here reserve for Andrea. It ain't deserved. She's been on a rocky path, definitely, been the sheer hatred some spray in her general direction? Nope. Has her arc this season been perfect? Certainly not. Has it been wasted? Certainly not. It just needs a bit more pace, and some more spirit and fire from the Andrea we know - we've got a decent arc, but a flawed one. However, it was good to see her getting badass again, hacking up that walker to provide cover - she's been cooped up in Woodbury too long. We had only just gained the Andrea we know from the comics, and then she was taken away from us - but hopefully now, at long last, we'll get the full beans.



Even worse is the abuse I've seen directed at the poor lass playing her on Twitter! I've seen her having to defend herself against it a few times from over zealous fans, which is a shame because she seems like a really nice person in real life. It's no wonder celebrities are deserting Twitter when they get undeserved abuse from trolls.

[Neil]

Even worse is the abuse I've seen directed at the poor lass playing her on Twitter! I've seen her having to defend herself against it a few times from over zealous fans, which is a shame because she seems like a really nice person in real life. It's no wonder celebrities are deserting Twitter when they get undeserved abuse from trolls.

Nothing new there... Vivean Gray used to play Mrs Mangle in Australian soap Neighbours. She left in the end due to the abuse she was getting in real life due to her fictional character! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivean_Gray


Gray left her role of Mrs Mangel after receiving abuse from Neighbours fans who could not distinguish fact from fiction.

[JonOfTheShred]

My favorite moment of the episode was when Beth was singing, and Merle just kind of appeared out of the shadows and starts listening. I don't know why, just found that hilarious and awesome. I liked the "Amputee Anonymous" meetup as well, as someone mentioned earlier. I mentioned that to a friend I was watching; "They're gonna bond over missing limbs, just watch." Incidentally, Hershel must realize Merle literally beat the shit out of Glenn and kidnapped Maggie. Hershel is one of my favorite on the show - very consistent, and usually the only voice of reason.

FINALLY Andrea does something right, by going back to the prison to attempt to put an end to any conflict, and boy is she put in her place. But she doesn't get there before majorly fucking up again, by sending Tyrese to Woodbury. The writers really like to play up Andrea as quite the fuck-up, even when she is trying to do right. She had the corny, cringe-inducing speech the other week, and now she's sending Ricks right-hand-man from the comic straight to the enemy. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.

Ben and Allen are very unlikable. Will be interesting to see them kick the bucket. I felt bad for Allen in the comic, but in the show? What a jerk.


Even worse is the abuse I've seen directed at the poor lass playing her on Twitter! I've seen her having to defend herself against it a few times from over zealous fans, which is a shame because she seems like a really nice person in real life. It's no wonder celebrities are deserting Twitter when they get undeserved abuse from trolls.

The actress who portrayed Agent Stahl on Sons of Anarchy literally got death threats. Shows how good of an actress she was.

I can understand ranting about Andreas portrayal in a comedic or satirical fashion, or even in a legitimately pissed, analytical fashion (she was some peoples favorite character from the comics, can't blame them for getting a bit upset about her horrible translation to the show), but getting mad at the actress enough to send her disparaging remarks on Twitter is a bit absurd. And this is coming from someone that re-watched the entire series in the past few days, had a revelation that Andrea is by far the most annoying and unlikable character on the show, and then wrote a lengthy satirical article about many of the characters pitfalls. The difference is, I wouldn't go send that link to her on Twitter or something, that would be unnecessary and personally mean. I mean, I think Laurie Holden does a truly awful job as Andrea, a remarkably abysmal performance. But I thought she was awesome in Silent Hill, and have no personal grudge against the actress for portraying the character in the way she is. We're not supposed to like EVERYONE in the TV show, and I honestly think we're not meant to like Andrea in the show.

[MinionZombie]

I saw some messages somewhere from Holden's feed and it was all defending/explaining Andrea's actions - including the blindingly obvious smackdown of 'Andrea hasn't read the comics' :lol: - good on you Miss Holden! Slap some reality on those clowns.

I felt sorry for her too as I reckon other TWD folks on Twitter don't get as much whining and complaining. Andrea's path on the show certainly hasn't been perfect, but there has been some harsh criticism flung her way that is simply undeserved. I'm looking forward to Andrea being unleashed as the total arse kicker from the comics, and listening to everyone who utterly ripped the piss out of her clam-the-hell-up.

I fucking hate Allan and Ben, though ... but I'd never go abuse the actors. They're doing a good job acting these utter twats of characters.

Still, screw those characters. I remember Allan being a bit of a screw-up and pitiable character in the comics, and there's some of that here, but his vicious streak is an instant switch-off for me. Tyreese is definitely far more conflicted, and he and Sasha were totally against them taking out Team Prison in 3x09 ... there's definitely some guilt on Sasha's face there in 3x11, I think, and Tyreese is acting to keep his group safe ... but damn dude ... all they did was not let you stay. They didn't steal from you, they didn't rape anyone, they didn't kill anyone, they helped you out from a sticky spot and fed you and were wanting you to stay until Rick - who is clearly unhinged - told them to leave. They even had it explained to them that they'd been through some dire stuff in the last week, so it's even harsher for "Team Tattletale" (as one meme has nicknamed them) to sell out Team Prison to Captain Eye Patch.

I have a feeling Allan and Ben won't be long for this world the way they're acting, but if they are going to be around for longer, they're going to have to have a hugely humiliating about-face after they realise just how shitty they've been. I look forward to seeing how this is going to play out...

Theory:
I wonder if the Governor gets Allan and Ben - maybe Tyreese and Sasha as well - to infiltrate the prison. Could that link to some of the upcoming episode titles? If Allan and/or Ben does infiltrate the prison, I hope our guys justifiably hand their asses to them.

Might Sasha end up on the wrong side of The Governor too? Hmmm...

[AcesandEights]

Tyreese is acting to keep his group safe ... but damn dude ... all they did was not let you stay.

Well, their leader went crazy, shoved a gun in their faces and kicked them out on the road to probably die, then they find out these prisonfolk are the same people who attacked and killed people at the good commuity they have just stopped at.

[babomb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQOfhgwERLo
Looks great! I hope they ratchet up the intensity for the rest of this seasons episodes. I don't mean constant action sequences. Just some real meat-on-the-bone episodes.
I'd like to see them become much more resourceful. Start using improvised weapons and tactics. Since the Gov's new army has the numbers and is better equipped, the prison group needs to become a group of insurgents.
They could use the walkers in the front courtyard to their advantage. Make the woodbury army spend alot of ammo just getting through the courtyard, which would also force them to give up any element of surprise.
They could attract more walkers by turning the power back on and sounding the alarm. Post decoys on the roof and around the main prison building, and relocate their supplies and themselves outside the prison. Let the woodbury forces battle it out with walkers in front and in back in the tombs, and once they push into the prison they'll find nothing but walkers in there. This could buy the group some time and more options. They could ambush the woodbury forces from outside. Or they could assault woodbury while their forces are battling walkers at the prison. Woodbury's most effective people will be assaulting the prison. This leaves the old lady's and less capable people to be on security in the town itself. They could start some fires on the perimeter walls at woodbury, and push in where they can acquire some of woodbury's resources and use them against the army when they try to return. Or use them for a full on assault on the prison while the army is there. Take out their vehicles.
The prison group can't take on the woodbury army outright. Their only hope is to use guerrilla tactics and force multipliers.

[Andy]

I too dont get all the hate aimed at andrea.. so shes a little different to the comic character, so what? id rather she was different like everything else, Why would i watch the TV show if i knew exactly what was going to happen for the next 5 seasons becuase ive read it already?

Now carol-hating.. thats some hating i can get behind. Seriously wish she'd been shot instead of axel.

[Neil]

^ Agreed! They don't know the truth/facts behind it all.

[krisvds]

I too dont get all the hate aimed at andrea.. so shes a little different to the comic character, so what?

I dislike the Andrea character not because she is different from her comic book version, but because her actions are so stupid.
Her boyfriend keeps heads in fishtanks, takes her friends hostage, puts one of them in a fight to the death against his brother in an arena and she still sleeps with the guy? The 'why cant we all just get along' stance is grating.
Not that I hate Andrea, it's just that I dont believe the character ...

[babomb]

I dislike the Andrea character not because she is different from her comic book version, but because her actions are so stupid.
Her boyfriend keeps heads in fishtanks, takes her friends hostage, puts one of them in a fight to the death against his brother in an arena and she still sleeps with the guy? The 'why cant we all just get along' stance is grating.
Not that I hate Andrea, it's just that I dont believe the character ... Agreed.

[facestabber]

I dislike the Andrea character not because she is different from her comic book version, but because her actions are so stupid.
Her boyfriend keeps heads in fishtanks, takes her friends hostage, puts one of them in a fight to the death against his brother in an arena and she still sleeps with the guy? The 'why cant we all just get along' stance is grating.
Not that I hate Andrea, it's just that I dont believe the character ...

Very well said. Fishtanks alone should be enough. Lets quit pretending Andrea doesn't have the same info as us. The heads were enough.
Plus she trusts Daryl more than any other so I was glad he chimed in and told her how it was.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, she's badly written. That's all and the actress doesn't help me endear the character any further by the way she carries herself in the show. It's all exaggerated walks, twisted faces, slack jaw and arse talking.

And Mr. Stabber is correct, let's drop the "no info" angle. She has all the info that she needs to make an informed decision, at least about the Gov. if not Woodbury as a whole.

In saying that, all the Twater nonsense aimed against Holden is lamentable. I age at the thought that there are people who are really that fucking stupid out there.

[JonOfTheShred]

I too dont get all the hate aimed at andrea..

Here's a series of bullet points right off the top of my head of things she has done in the show that make me dislike the personality of her character. (But minus the satire from my recent Walking Dead article):

- Was immediately a bitch to Rick upon meeting up, being melodramatic and overly aggressive. Pulling a gun on him and making a huge fuss as if it helped the situation any more. She constantly swings her figurative dick throughout the series - the messiah complex isn't something she picked up in Season 3. It was there from Season 1.
- When Amy died, and she was hovering over her body, she was acting like a bitch to everyone for just trying to help her. Pulled a gun on Rick AGAIN as if it was nothing.
- Treated Dale like shit after he saved her life from suicide. Took it way too overboard.
- First episode of Season 2, when she's stuck in RV bathroom. Dale saves her life by handing her screwdriver, but she's shooting him dirty looks all the while. Very grateful character we're dealing with here.
- Apparently she "keeps giving Lori dirty looks" for getting to carry gun and Lori calls her on it. We don't even see this on camera, and yet it falls perfectly in sync with her character to this point.
- After attacked by Walker and the group gets back to the RV, Dale asks her if shes ok so she shoots him this cunty, exaggerated look and shakes her head disgustedly. We get it, you want your gun. Why is the acting always so contrived and over-the-top? It's as if her head is a pez dispenser and the only expression she knows is "Bitchy self-satisfaction."
- Brings up the guns AGAIN AND AGAIN. Even Shane shuts the fuck up and stops running his mouth before she does about getting to hold guns on Hershel's farm. She sure has a knack for not being appreciative to people saving her life. (Rick, Dale, Hershel, Michonne) Well, that is, besides the sociopaths she spreads her legs for. (Shane, the Governor)
- Antagonizes Shane in subtle fashions to keep pushing for more power.
- Rick very graciously asks Andrea to keep an eye on Shane while he leaves, and she gets immediately defensive and condescending, talking up Shane and disregarding the truth in Ricks rhetoric. In other words, being a disagreeable bitch just for the sake of being disagreeable.
- Practically puts a gun in Beths hand while she's suicidal. She does this solely to justify her own actions at the CDC. She's putting another persons life at risk because she want's to be right about her little suicide pact with Jenner. Selfish and disgusting behavior, especially considering Beth's father is both housing and feeding her.
- Shoots Daryl in head. Says she's trying to "protect the farm" but in reality she's just being a bitch. Gunshots attract walkers, moron, firing a gun for one straggler when four people are literally sprinting towards it with melee weapons is not only unnecessary, but it was dangerous to all 4 people running out there. It was stupid, selfish, and cunty that she did this, disobeying literally 5 people telling her not to fire.

I'm not even gonna bother going further. Andrea is the dumbest, most selfishly naive idiot on the entire TV show. That's why she's constantly giving people smug, self-satisfied looks and treating everyone besides the psychopaths (Shane and the Governor) like absolute horse shit. Her character sucks, I have seen her done almost NOTHING redeeming in the entire series, and I only just noticed this because I rewatched the entire series in the past 3 or 4 days.

Please, can the Andrea defenders give an examples of her doing something right? The only thing I like about her is she is pretty badass at killing Walkers. But her attitude and the over-acting of Laurie Holden completely eclipses this ONE redeeming quality with a shopping lists worth of issues that just ruin the character entirely.
Oh yea, and when she stuck up for Carol by talking back to Ed. That was the only other thing I remember the character doing that wasn't bitchy or irritating.

[MinionZombie]

- Was immediately a bitch to Rick upon meeting up, being melodramatic and overly aggressive. Pulling a gun on him and making a huge fuss as if it helped the situation any more. She constantly swings her figurative dick throughout the series - the messiah complex isn't something she picked up in Season 3. It was there from Season 1.

Rick, albeit fresh to the situation and not into being subtle with his gun, was running around the streets getting all the walkers riled up with his gunfire. He brought a shedload of walkers to the department store and they were trapped - before that they had been able to sneak in quietly. In the heat of the moment she thinks "great, this random idiot has just killed us all, and I'll never get to see my sister again, the sister that I'm responsible for protecting" - justified gun-in-face flash-in-the-pan heat-of-the-moment anger.


- When Amy died, and she was hovering over her body, she was acting like a bitch to everyone for just trying to help her. Pulled a gun on Rick AGAIN as if it was nothing.

Acting like a bitch?! Her sister - as far as she knows, her only living family member - her beloved sister, has just been cruelly ripped from her life by a walker and killed. She is in total full-on grief mode. Yes, the others don't want Amy coming back and biting Andrea, but their approaches to her become intrusive - Andrea isn't ready in any way shape or form (plus this is the very early days of the outbreak so no-one is hardened by this new life and the practicalities presented by it) - and just think about it, they come blundering along with a gun in-hand - to Andrea they're taking her sister away all over again. Plus, to Andrea - SHE has to be the one to deal with Amy. She's desperate for her not to come back, but SHE will be the one to put her own sister down. Dale is the only one who approaches the situation with any kind of sensitivity.

Totally justified reaction.


- Treated Dale like shit after he saved her life from suicide. Took it way too overboard.

She wanted to die - still utterly distraught after the loss of her beloved sister - and Dale comes along and says he's going to stay. Before it was her own decision and it only affected her ultimately, but now her decision is going to kill Dale as well? She was guilt-tripped into it - although I do believe that Dale partly didn't want to go on living without Andrea, but he definitely was also in-part doing it to snap her out of making a rash decision, even in this hellish world.

It was her decision and Dale put himself - rightly or wrongly or both - in the way and forced her to change direction, admittedly when she wasn't in the soundest of minds. Still not in a sound mind (season 2 picks up right after season 1 and the first half is only the first week following season 1) so Andrea is in a pretty rough place emotionally. Dale - again, rightly or wrongly - refusing her her own gun to carry around, further compounds a sense of control being ripped away from her ... again, rightly or wrongly.


- First episode of Season 2, when she's stuck in RV bathroom. Dale saves her life by handing her screwdriver, but she's shooting him dirty looks all the while. Very grateful character we're dealing with here.

:rockbrow: See above.


- Apparently she "keeps giving Lori dirty looks" for getting to carry gun and Lori calls her on it. We don't even see this on camera, and yet it falls perfectly in sync with her character to this point.

Again, see above.


- After attacked by Walker and the group gets back to the RV, Dale asks her if shes ok so she shoots him this c**ty, exaggerated look and shakes her head disgustedly. We get it, you want your gun. Why is the acting always so contrived and over-the-top? It's as if her head is a pez dispenser and the only expression she knows is "Bitchy self-satisfaction."

Yet again, see above.


- Brings up the guns AGAIN AND AGAIN. Even Shane shuts the fuck up and stops running his mouth before she does about getting to hold guns on Hershel's farm. She sure has a knack for not being appreciative to people saving her life. (Rick, Dale, Hershel, Michonne) Well, that is, besides the sociopaths she spreads her legs for. (Shane, the Governor)

They may be on Hershel's land, but in a world where a walker could suddenly appear around a corner, you don't want to be walking around unarmed. This is still only just after Amy was killed, and being unarmed rightly feels utterly moronic - Hershel had his justified reasons, but he was also under a total delusion at the time. Shane was finally someone who treated her differently - he brought out her inner warrior (it's a shame we've not seen enough of that in season 3, snippets here and there, but not enough during the season thus far) ... Shane taught her how to protect herself in this world and didn't treat her with kidgloves or deny her. She shagged him because of the adrenaline rush.


- Antagonizes Shane in subtle fashions to keep pushing for more power.

Everyone's pushing everyone else for whatever reason, not just Andrea.


- Rick very graciously asks Andrea to keep an eye on Shane while he leaves, and she gets immediately defensive and condescending, talking up Shane and disregarding the truth in Ricks rhetoric. In other words, being a disagreeable bitch just for the sake of being disagreeable.

I'd have to see that scene again, but I get the feeling you're over-egging all this a bit-too-much.


- Practically puts a gun in Beths hand while she's suicidal. She does this solely to justify her own actions at the CDC. She's putting another persons life at risk because she want's to be right about her little suicide pact with Jenner. Selfish and disgusting behavior, especially considering Beth's father is both housing and feeding her.

I definitely agree that her action was foolish and offensive. She wanted to treat Beth like an adult, seeing a connected with the wish-for-suicide, but Andrea came out of it and she wanted to give Beth the choice that she felt she wasn't afforded, however it blows up spectacularly in her face, and Andrea sees she has made a right bugger up of the situation. Certainly not her finest moment - in fact, one of her very low points - a hugely misguided decision that overstepped numerous boundaries.


- Shoots Daryl in head. Says she's trying to "protect the farm" but in reality she's just being a bitch. Gunshots attract walkers, moron, firing a gun for one straggler when four people are literally sprinting towards it with melee weapons is not only unnecessary, but it was dangerous to all 4 people running out there. It was stupid, selfish, and c**ty that she did this, disobeying literally 5 people telling her not to fire.

The "Annie Oakley routine" as Dale said, I guess. She was too eager to prove herself and again made a massive mistake from which she had to learn. Foolish eagerness partly born out of many other people in the group treating her like a baby or denying her opinions on certain things which are perfectly justifiable (e.g. carrying guns on the farm).

Speaking generally now...

The Andrea hate has been overboard for ages now - and for a huge portion of that time, Andrea didn't have the knowledge that we did. She's now got much more of it now, and I am getting restless waiting for her to rejoin Team Prison and snap out of this weird kind of stockholm syndrome - but like the men in Dawn of the Dead, she's hypnotised by Woodbury, just as Michonne said. Her loyalties are split between those she thought were probably dead, but certainly long-gone, and those she has been coming to get to know (the people of Woodbury). Now that's all been thrown out of whack. The Governor is a first class manipulator - she doesn't know the army guy's head was in the fishtanks, just zombie heads to her knowledge - and yes, that should be a bigger red flag that it's played out to be, but combined with a psychological break that meant TG was keeping his undead daughter chained up in-secret? That shades things differently - hell, she spent months hanging out with a chick who had two pet walkers.

Could the writing be better for Andrea? Yes, her decisions are a little too slow in coming and her thought processes aren't always telegraphed to the viewer strongly enough, but the sheer venom spat her way is unnecessary and out-of-proportion too. Sometimes I feel such vicious responses say more about the person doing the complaining, than it actually does about Andrea.

Same with the Carol hate - undeserved and over-the-top ... and at times, quite frankly offensive.

If anyone thinks I'm blindly defending Andrea, then they've not bothered reading my posts, but I will not hop on the over-cooked hatred bandwagon.

[Andy]

Comic spoilers ahoy..

With the carol hating.. shes just a plain, horrible, cringeworthy character and more to the point, just like shane in season 2.. we both know she is now living on borrowed time and will die soon. i just want it to be sooner rather than later.

Quite frankly i was upset they sacrified t-dog to save her.

[MinionZombie]

Here's a good read with Laurie Holden (Andrea):
http://www.vulture.com/2013/02/laurie-holden-on-the-walking-deads-angry-fans.html

For the lazy ones, here's some choice slices that are rather pertinent:


There’s a few things people don’t seem to understand: Andrea did not know what the audience has known. People will say, “Yes, but he kept Penny in a closet.” And I say, “Well, Hershel kept his wife and family in a barn. Andrea sat over her dead sister for two days.” The rules have changed. Everyone’s grieving and there are those people who still believe the human soul is still trapped in these monsters.


Why do you think Andrea didn’t kill the Governor at the end of the episode?
Aside from the fact that we’ve got several more episodes to go this season.
To clarify, it has nothing to do with love. Andrea was a human-rights lawyer prior to the apocalypse. She has killed a lot of zombies. She has never, ever killed a human being. And it’s one thing to kill someone in self-defense; it’s another to kill them while they’re sleeping. And then there’s Dale, who was a huge influence in Andrea’s life. He’s like her guardian angel, and I think that every step Andrea takes, she’s always thinking about honoring Dale, whose thing was “You just don’t kill people.” As a former lawyer, you’re going to see her try for reason and peace and no bloodshed.

^^^
These are particularly good points to consider. They could telegraph these a little better in the show, mind you. There's a lot going on, and if you don't flag up certain things a bit more, they can easily got lost in the noise of everything else that's happening.


But here’s another example of how you cannot win on this show! So many people have asked me about Andrea’s thong, like they had a problem with it.

But if I had worn granny panties with holes in it, I just know the backlash on the Internet would have been through the roof. You’re upset about a thong? Think about the alternative.

^^^
Some people sound like right whingers ... where she got a thong from. That's what some people are fixating on?! :stunned:

Regarding Mazzara's departure:


How did you feel about the news that you guys were getting a new showrunner? Again!
I’m not really at liberty to talk about that, but I can say that I think that Glen will be happier on a different show. And I think we’re also in excellent hands with Scott Gimple, who is a very creative person with wonderful ideas. I think everyone’s going to be okay.

But was there a feeling of “Here we go again,” another period of readjustment?
This is the second time this has happened, and yeah, hopefully the third time’s the charm. I won’t lie: It’s very upsetting when the captain of the ship leaves and then there’s a new one. But the beauty of our show is that the actors and the crew, everyone is so dedicated and so good at what they do that I think it’ll be around for a long time.

[JonOfTheShred]

Rick, albeit fresh to the situation and not into being subtle with his gun, was running around the streets getting all the walkers riled up with his gunfire. He brought a shedload of walkers to the department store and they were trapped - before that they had been able to sneak in quietly. In the heat of the moment she thinks "great, this random idiot has just killed us all, and I'll never get to see my sister again, the sister that I'm responsible for protecting" - justified gun-in-face flash-in-the-pan heat-of-the-moment anger.

Oh, I completely understand where her anger was coming from. But I also think it was a ridiculous overreaction on her part. I don't know, I guess I'm just more of a team player in that if it was THAT early in the apocalypse, I would actually be HAPPY a survivor showed up; it'd be a welcome sight to know someone else had survived. Especially a police officer - maybe they had updates? A clearer perspective of what was going on? Who knows? The first thought to race through my head certainly wouldn't be "Better make sure I show this asshole I'm badass and throw a tantrum." If anything a sarcastic quip would be all that is needed. But the way Andrea reacted was as if this stranger had totally intended to get them eaten, like he knew they were there and lead the zombies there out of spite. She was out of line and over-the-top.


Acting like a bitch?! Her sister - as far as she knows, her only living family member - her beloved sister, has just been cruelly ripped from her life by a walker and killed. She is in total full-on grief mode. Yes, the others don't want Amy coming back and biting Andrea, but their approaches to her become intrusive - Andrea isn't ready in any way shape or form (plus this is the very early days of the outbreak so no-one is hardened by this new life and the practicalities presented by it) - and just think about it, they come blundering along with a gun in-hand - to Andrea they're taking her sister away all over again. Plus, to Andrea - SHE has to be the one to deal with Amy. She's desperate for her not to come back, but SHE will be the one to put her own sister down. Dale is the only one who approaches the situation with any kind of sensitivity.

I understood why she reacted the way she did here, too. The actress just portrays her with such snarkiness it's hard to relate to her on any level. She is particularly hostile with Rick, this comes up throughout the series. They've only shared one friendly moment together as far as I know - when Rick tells her she can steal the dolphin necklace.
In fact, Rick parting with a car and food in the latest episode - still helping Andrea despite her supposed "betrayal" (from prison perspective) - was all the more potent considering how shitty she has treated him (and pretty much everyone else on the show besides Shane, the Governor and Carol) in the past, constantly giving people unnecessary attitude.


She wanted to die - still utterly distraught after the loss of her beloved sister - and Dale comes along and says he's going to stay. Before it was her own decision and it only affected her ultimately, but now her decision is going to kill Dale as well? She was guilt-tripped into it - although I do believe that Dale partly didn't want to go on living without Andrea, but he definitely was also in-part doing it to snap her out of making a rash decision, even in this hellish world.

Again, I understand her line of thinking, and all these explanations of her motive aren't necessary - I just disagree with the consistency of her bitchiness. Notice I said I only JUST realized I didn't like her character? That's because I just rewatched the series in one-shot. She has consistently dis-likable traits, and this is much more obvious when you view the series in large marathon viewing. Explaining her rather simplistic and obvious motives aren't really going to sway my opinion, it's just an opinion after all.


It was her decision and Dale put himself - rightly or wrongly or both - in the way and forced her to change direction, admittedly when she wasn't in the soundest of minds. Still not in a sound mind (season 2 picks up right after season 1 and the first half is only the first week following season 1) so Andrea is in a pretty rough place emotionally. Dale - again, rightly or wrongly - refusing her her own gun to carry around, further compounds a sense of control being ripped away from her ... again, rightly or wrongly.
:rockbrow: See above.
Again, see above.
Yet again, see above.


You can try and justify Andrea shooting Dale dirty looks as he is IN THE MIDDLE OF SAVING HER, but I just particularly think the character is awful and acts consistently ungrateful to literally everyone. Again, I can see why she is pissed off, I just don't agree with the way she is handling her rage. It's like she's constantly on the rag, to be completely honest, and it's just annoying. Even when she's being nice the character just comes across as smug and unlikable to me.


They may be on Hershel's land, but in a world where a walker could suddenly appear around a corner, you don't want to be walking around unarmed. This is still only just after Amy was killed, and being unarmed rightly feels utterly moronic - Hershel had his justified reasons, but he was also under a total delusion at the time. Shane was finally someone who treated her differently - he brought out her inner warrior (it's a shame we've not seen enough of that in season 3, snippets here and there, but not enough during the season thus far) ... Shane taught her how to protect herself in this world and didn't treat her with kidgloves or deny her. She shagged him because of the adrenaline rush.

Again, I understand her motive entirely, they are quite obvious and clear-cut. The way she carries herself in these situations is the key factor, not her personal inner monologue we can easily decipher from her actions. She even says something like this to Shane, "Your delivery needs work." Yet she literally has the shittiest attitude of any character.


I'd have to see that scene again, but I get the feeling you're over-egging all this a bit-too-much.

I'm not over-egging anything - someone said they didn't understand all the Andrea hate, so I posted a quick list of things I remember about her that annoyed me. COLLECTIVELY, all these listed items make it much worse - certain faults when alone would be minor, but when all added up in the grand scheme they work together to make a shitty whole. Again: a lot of these little situations would be excusable if her character wasn't so consistently crass and disagreeing.

Personally, I don't understand the Carol hate, but I'm not going to ask people to validate their dislike of her or anything. Nor would I try to personally debunk someones personal opinions for disliking the character by explaining their motives, either. Don't tell me I'm over-egging when you're attempting to debunk my opinions, good sir :p


I definitely agree that her action was foolish and offensive. She wanted to treat Beth like an adult, seeing a connected with the wish-for-suicide, but Andrea came out of it and she wanted to give Beth the choice that she felt she wasn't afforded, however it blows up spectacularly in her face, and Andrea sees she has made a right bugger up of the situation. Certainly not her finest moment - in fact, one of her very low points - a hugely misguided decision that overstepped numerous boundaries.

This is a defining moment for her character. It completely showcases her selfishness - she's literally using Beths condition to attempt to validate her own decision at the CDC. Because of all her other minor quirks and character faults....namely, her attitude towards other characters, disrespect of other people, clueless nature in general, and all the other little things added up throughout.....this was the straw that broke the undead camels back. The consistency of her poor convictions and reasoning skills peaks here, and only gets worse throughout season 3. This and the next example are what define her character in the show.


The "Annie Oakley routine" as Dale said, I guess. She was too eager to prove herself and again made a massive mistake from which she had to learn. Foolish eagerness partly born out of many other people in the group treating her like a baby or denying her opinions on certain things which are perfectly justifiable (e.g. carrying guns on the farm).

There is no excuse for this one. She fired a round at an unknown target while 4 people ran up. 5 separate people told her not to fire. The gunshot sound would easily draw in more walkers. So this one can either be chalked up to a selfish and dangerous need to prove herself vs. complete and utter stupidity. And I'd say it was a mix of both. Combine this selfish and idiotic act with egging on Beth to commit suicide, combined with all her other character quirks, and I think people have a right to dislike her character. I think it's even arguable the writers are making her an antagonist - I honesty do not think the audience is supposed to like Andrea.

Andrea deserved to be treated like a baby. Carl acts more mature in Season 3 than Andrea ever has on the show. She is constantly nagging people and disagreeing with others, just to disagree. She is like a post-apocalyptic hipster.

[qupte]Speaking generally now...

The Andrea hate has been overboard for ages now - and for a huge portion of that time, Andrea didn't have the knowledge that we did. She's now got much more of it now, and I am getting restless waiting for her to rejoin Team Prison and snap out of this weird kind of stockholm syndrome - but like the men in Dawn of the Dead, she's hypnotised by Woodbury, just as Michonne said. Her loyalties are split between those she thought were probably dead, but certainly long-gone, and those she has been coming to get to know (the people of Woodbury). Now that's all been thrown out of whack. The Governor is a first class manipulator - she doesn't know the army guy's head was in the fishtanks, just zombie heads to her knowledge - and yes, that should be a bigger red flag that it's played out to be, but combined with a psychological break that meant TG was keeping his undead daughter chained up in-secret? That shades things differently - hell, she spent months hanging out with a chick who had two pet walkers.[/quote]

A lot of characters hatred is overboard.


Could the writing be better for Andrea? Yes, her decisions are a little too slow in coming and her thought processes aren't always telegraphed to the viewer strongly enough, but the sheer venom spat her way is unnecessary and out-of-proportion too. Sometimes I feel such vicious responses say more about the person doing the complaining, than it actually does about Andrea.
Same with the Carol hate - undeserved and over-the-top ... and at times, quite frankly offensive.
If anyone thinks I'm blindly defending Andrea, then they've not bothered reading my posts, but I will not hop on the over-cooked hatred bandwagon.

I'm not gonna jump on any over-cooked "Hold hands, feel happy counterfeit optimistic" bandwagons either. This is a message board to discuss the Walking Dead. If someone dislikes a character, who the fuck cares? It's a TV show.

"Sometimes I feel such vicious responses say more about the person doing the complaining, than it actually does about Andrea."

If anyone wants to come at me and say my 'viscous responses' bear any semblance to my character or real life persona, they can kindly go fuck themselves. That's some pretty lame, passive aggressive horse-shit right there. I'm not attacking the people that like Andrea, am I? Maybe I enjoy ranting about things to vent in a healthy fashion? To dispel anger in a way that won't harm anyone, as opposed to telling my boss he's an asshole and getting fired, or something along those lines? You follow me? I totally understand that statement if it's aimed at people sending the actress death threats. But I think it is absurd to fault people for venting about a character on a TV show.

I never could understand why people get butt-hurt enough about other peoples opinions to bring it to some personal level bullshit. Most people on the internet speak in hyperbole 99% of the time, while at the same time forgetting that everyone else also speaks in hyperbole on the internet 99% of the time. I mean...we ARE just discussing inconsequential bullshit - the merits of a TV character. Don't try to start a flame-war with that passive aggressive shit, I have no qualms with you for liking Andrea, no need to have qualms with me for disliking the same character.


Here's a good read with Laurie Holden (Andrea):
http://www.vulture.com/2013/02/laurie-holden-on-the-walking-deads-angry-fans.html


That's an interesting read, thanks for sharing! She seems like a really nice person IRL, I find it absurd people are attacking her personally on Twitter over her character. Discussing it on forums and getting into unnecessary arguments isn't enough for these people? To me, Andrea will always be the most annoying character on the show, and I enjoyed writing satire to knock her, but I wouldn't post that to her wall to try and personally hurt her or anything. She's portraying the character she wants to on the show - I admire her ability to defend her decisions and express them in response to her detractors, even if I dislike the character.

[Harleydude666]

I guess I see things differently. I like her character for all the reasons you mentioned. She is not perfect, just a normal red blooded human being making decisions and mistake in a post apocalyptic world. When I see her character I see how some people would react in this new horrifying world bestowed upon them. I don't get the hate at all. Not that she's my favorite character but all the same very interesting. My only complaint is the way she's being written now, like the new mayor of Woodbury and she hasn't been there that long, but she's not the one writing so I can't blame her. But I like her abstract character




Here's a series of bullet points right off the top of my head of things she has done in the show that make me dislike the personality of her character. (But minus the satire from my recent Walking Dead article):

- Was immediately a bitch to Rick upon meeting up, being melodramatic and overly aggressive. Pulling a gun on him and making a huge fuss as if it helped the situation any more. She constantly swings her figurative dick throughout the series - the messiah complex isn't something she picked up in Season 3. It was there from Season 1.
- When Amy died, and she was hovering over her body, she was acting like a bitch to everyone for just trying to help her. Pulled a gun on Rick AGAIN as if it was nothing.
- Treated Dale like shit after he saved her life from suicide. Took it way too overboard.
- First episode of Season 2, when she's stuck in RV bathroom. Dale saves her life by handing her screwdriver, but she's shooting him dirty looks all the while. Very grateful character we're dealing with here.
- Apparently she "keeps giving Lori dirty looks" for getting to carry gun and Lori calls her on it. We don't even see this on camera, and yet it falls perfectly in sync with her character to this point.
- After attacked by Walker and the group gets back to the RV, Dale asks her if shes ok so she shoots him this cunty, exaggerated look and shakes her head disgustedly. We get it, you want your gun. Why is the acting always so contrived and over-the-top? It's as if her head is a pez dispenser and the only expression she knows is "Bitchy self-satisfaction."
- Brings up the guns AGAIN AND AGAIN. Even Shane shuts the fuck up and stops running his mouth before she does about getting to hold guns on Hershel's farm. She sure has a knack for not being appreciative to people saving her life. (Rick, Dale, Hershel, Michonne) Well, that is, besides the sociopaths she spreads her legs for. (Shane, the Governor)
- Antagonizes Shane in subtle fashions to keep pushing for more power.
- Rick very graciously asks Andrea to keep an eye on Shane while he leaves, and she gets immediately defensive and condescending, talking up Shane and disregarding the truth in Ricks rhetoric. In other words, being a disagreeable bitch just for the sake of being disagreeable.
- Practically puts a gun in Beths hand while she's suicidal. She does this solely to justify her own actions at the CDC. She's putting another persons life at risk because she want's to be right about her little suicide pact with Jenner. Selfish and disgusting behavior, especially considering Beth's father is both housing and feeding her.
- Shoots Daryl in head. Says she's trying to "protect the farm" but in reality she's just being a bitch. Gunshots attract walkers, moron, firing a gun for one straggler when four people are literally sprinting towards it with melee weapons is not only unnecessary, but it was dangerous to all 4 people running out there. It was stupid, selfish, and cunty that she did this, disobeying literally 5 people telling her not to fire.

I'm not even gonna bother going further. Andrea is the dumbest, most selfishly naive idiot on the entire TV show. That's why she's constantly giving people smug, self-satisfied looks and treating everyone besides the psychopaths (Shane and the Governor) like absolute horse shit. Her character sucks, I have seen her done almost NOTHING redeeming in the entire series, and I only just noticed this because I rewatched the entire series in the past 3 or 4 days.

Please, can the Andrea defenders give an examples of her doing something right? The only thing I like about her is she is pretty badass at killing Walkers. But her attitude and the over-acting of Laurie Holden completely eclipses this ONE redeeming quality with a shopping lists worth of issues that just ruin the character entirely.
Oh yea, and when she stuck up for Carol by talking back to Ed. That was the only other thing I remember the character doing that wasn't bitchy or irritating.

[JonOfTheShred]

I guess I see things differently. I like her character for all the reasons you mentioned. She is not perfect, just a normal red blooded human being making decisions and mistake in a post apocalyptic world. When I see her character I see how some people would react in this new horrifying world bestowed upon them. I don't get the hate at all. Not that she's my favorite character but all the same very interesting. My only complaint is the way she's being written now, like the new mayor of Woodbury and she hasn't been there that long, but she's not the one writing so I can't blame her. But I like her abstract character

I can see why you like her, totally respect any opposing viewpoints, even if the character translates very poorly for me. I can "get" peoples hate and love for any character on the show, as a matter of fact. Most of the villains on the show are multi-layered, everyone is shown in a sympathetic light at least once. (Well, besides Tomas, Andrew and to a lesser extent Ben and Allen. But I doubt anyone LIKES any of these four characters, ya know?)

[MinionZombie]

"Sometimes I feel such vicious responses say more about the person doing the complaining, than it actually does about Andrea."

As I said - at this point in my post I was speaking generally - i.e. not specifically about you. Perhaps I should have emphasised that sentence more for clarification - didn't mean to cause offense - although I do genuinely believe that some people out there in the rest of the Internet have foul opinions of these characters because they're foul people in real life (or have certain opinions in real life that I consider to be foul), but I don't include you in that, nor everyone who holds a controversial/foul opinion of one of these characters, nor am I speaking about any HPOTD'ers. Just to clarify. :)

Harleydude666 - you make an interesting point. We definitely need flaws in characters - that's part of what creates the drama for the plots themselves. Shane was massively flawed, for instance, and he was all the more compelling as a character to watch as a result.

As I've said a few times recently, the writing for Andrea does need improving, but as illustrated by that Vulture article in-part, the sheer criticism and even vitriol levelled at Andrea is too much IMHO. I was thinking about her not killing The Governor again last night, and it makes all-the-more sense that she wouldn't - as Holden rightly points out, she's never killed a human being before, only walkers. This is a huge ask by Carol (one that, clearly, surprised the hell out of Andrea).

We viewers are on Team Prison's side, we follow their story the closest of all, we are Team Prison, and likewise as we've seen their journey (including killing bad humans), we've accepted their values and outlook on this horrific new world. Andrea has had an entirely different experience, her values in that regard are months behind Team Prison simply due to a different set of circumstances and opinions.

Had she killed the Governor - then what? Woodbury might have crumbled without his leadership, or the likes of Martinez & Co might have then launched an attack on the Prison regardless - killing him might not necessarily have stopped the war right there and then, and it certainly wouldn't help make Team Prison look like good guys who were wronged by Woodbury first. So nothing is clear cut ... this said ... the writers need to do a better job of telegraphing this thought process on the page and then the filmmakers on the screen. It shouldn't require an actor/crew members setting out their stall to explain certain decisions (not necessarily all decisions, mind you).

I also think that Andrea in the comics is quite a head strong character, who has made foolish decisions in those pages, or attempted to take a rash course of action, only to be reigned-in by Rick or someone else. Andrea isn't just a clear-cut warrior in the comics, she's flawed on those pages too - quick to anger, capable of making rash decisions, but also very capable behind a trigger and willing to practice the harsh realities of this new world. TV's Andrea is getting close to that harsh mistress of the undead world - by the end of the season I'd imagine we'll see the hardened resolve we comics readers (I read the trade paperbacks as they're released every six months) have been used to for a long time.

[Ragnarr]

Thing that gets me is everyone on both sides of the war expose themselves to potential sniper fire. They'd rather risk a full auto exchange every time rather than just picking off the other side one-by-one at long range. But I guess that wouldn't be as dramatic to watch. Liked the governor's truck "walker-nuke" though.

[Buzzbomb]

When leaving the prison, I loved the way the Andrea character gave a final look back into her rear view mirror...

Series 3 has been excellent so far!

[Wyldwraith]

One point about Andrea accidentally shooting Daryl,
Andrea was so all-fired to be on guard duty and demonstrate she could protect the camp, which was the way she wished to contribute (like the men do)...because Lori went on a passive aggressive, guilt-trip tirade about Andrea not helping out with the meals and the washing "Puts a burden on the rest of us"....

Once AGAIN, Lori's self-appointed stone-thrower attitude resulting in a negative outcome. Now, go back and review that "conversation" between Lori and Andrea in Mid-season 2...and then tell me honestly you can't see how Lori trying to guilt Andrea into joining Team Woman's Work plays a part in Andrea being overeager while on guard duty.

In FACT, Andrea was getting grief from all comers at that point in the series. Clashing with Dale for intruding and denying her a right to self-determination and then as the Gun Control Police. Alienated from Rick (AND Shane at that point) for not siding with her and letting Dale get away with it. Rick's motives were excellent...at that time they'd JUST narrowly escaped a herd, and he actually stated "less people with guns, less chance on a shot drawing the herd back this way"...unfortunately, this smart and well-reasoned motive was doomed to be misconstrued by Andrea because of the piles of bullshit reasoning by the others it got buried in.

And YES, letting LORI carry a piece when at that time so far as we know she had ZERO training...and solely because of Rick's desire to keep her safe at all costs WAS hypocritical of Rick...however emotionally justifiable most of us find this bit of hypocrisy. However, from Andrea's perspective one could reasonably say this was rubbing salt in an open wound. In fact, (again)..If you notice, every time that just about enough time has passed for Andrea to get over one reason to be aggravated with Rick...often for the most well-intentioned but poorly executed reasons, Rick comes along and does something else that 99% of people in Andrea's place would be furious over.

Breaking up Andrea's bitchiness into point-by-point incidents denies the basic reality of the character. Ie: Like Shane (totally different motives/mindsets), Andrea was subjected to offense after insult, after condescension after guilt-trip after lecture after snap-decision denying her her rights while giving those same rights to others no more worthy or deserving. It's a totality issue. When everyone around you is doing and saying things to alienate you, the first instinct is to withdraw from their company. The zombie apocalypse keeps one from doing that though. So, trapped with people who from one's perspective seem to be making it a habit to fuck with you, a poor attitude is going to be the least and most understandable of results.

When one sets out to assign blame, one's argument only holds water if you assign it fairly and objectively to all involved/connected to the behaviors which you are judging. Doing otherwise is simple cherry-picking of events that support one's point of view. (Something I know something about, having been guilty of it several times myself.)

[JonOfTheShred]

As I said - at this point in my post I was speaking generally - i.e. not specifically about you. Perhaps I should have emphasised that sentence more for clarification - didn't mean to cause offense - although I do genuinely believe that some people out there in the rest of the Internet have foul opinions of these characters because they're foul people in real life (or have certain opinions in real life that I consider to be foul), but I don't include you in that, nor everyone who holds a controversial/foul opinion of one of these characters, nor am I speaking about any HPOTD'ers. Just to clarify. :)

Right on, I can see what you're saying about death-threaters for sure, that's way too much. But a lot of internet folk just constantly speak in hyperbole, and I don't think it speaks ill of ones character. (Unless the person is just constantly hating to hate, without backing up their opinions and whatnot, you gnome saiyan?)


I was thinking about her not killing The Governor again last night, and it makes all-the-more sense that she wouldn't - as Holden rightly points out, she's never killed a human being before, only walkers. This is a huge ask by Carol (one that, clearly, surprised the hell out of Andrea).

I didn't expect her to kill him at all, it definitely is not in her character - not yet anyway. I was half-expecting Governor to wake up and maybe even choke her to death, it would really turn the viewer against him even more, and would have been far more beneficial to the story than Andrea killing him in the most anti-climatic fashion possible.



I also think that Andrea in the comics is quite a head strong character, who has made foolish decisions in those pages, or attempted to take a rash course of action, only to be reigned-in by Rick or someone else. Andrea isn't just a clear-cut warrior in the comics, she's flawed on those pages too - quick to anger, capable of making rash decisions, but also very capable behind a trigger and willing to practice the harsh realities of this new world. TV's Andrea is getting close to that harsh mistress of the undead world - by the end of the season I'd imagine we'll see the hardened resolve we comics readers (I read the trade paperbacks as they're released every six months) have been used to for a long time.

Yea, again, it's down to personal taste at this point, but if I was one of the survivors and Andrea was acting the way she does in the show, I wouldn't be too fond of her.

- - - Updated - - -


One point about Andrea accidentally shooting Daryl,
Andrea was so all-fired to be on guard duty and demonstrate she could protect the camp, which was the way she wished to contribute (like the men do)...because Lori went on a passive aggressive, guilt-trip tirade about Andrea not helping out with the meals and the washing "Puts a burden on the rest of us".... Once AGAIN, Lori's self-appointed stone-thrower attitude resulting in a negative outcome. Now, go back and review that "conversation" between Lori and Andrea in Mid-season 2...and then tell me honestly you can't see how Lori trying to guilt Andrea into joining Team Woman's Work plays a part in Andrea being overeager while on guard duty.

I agreed with Lori. Andrea SHOULD have joined the women in doing female work, and trained on how to defend the camp on the side until she had more experience. Lori was making valid points in that discussion, and was doing it in a far more amicable fashion then Andrea, who immediately got really upset and offended Lori suggested she fell in line with the stereotypical gender roles every other female on the show gracefully accepted to accommodate the men in the groups sanity.


In FACT, Andrea was getting grief from all comers at that point in the series. Clashing with Dale for intruding and denying her a right to self-determination and then as the Gun Control Police. Alienated from Rick (AND Shane at that point) for not siding with her and letting Dale get away with it. Rick's motives were excellent...at that time they'd JUST narrowly escaped a herd, and he actually stated "less people with guns, less chance on a shot drawing the herd back this way"...unfortunately, this smart and well-reasoned motive was doomed to be misconstrued by Andrea because of the piles of bullshit reasoning by the others it got buried in.

Rick and Shane were giving Andrea encouragement for being a good shot. Both Rick and Shane asked Andrea on several occasions to watch over things when they needed to do something else. She wasn't excluded at all, she just twisted everyone's words as some kind of personal attack on her when it was rules being enforced for the entire group.


And YES, letting LORI carry a piece when at that time so far as we know she had ZERO training...and solely because of Rick's desire to keep her safe at all costs WAS hypocritical of Rick...however emotionally justifiable most of us find this bit of hypocrisy. However, from Andrea's perspective one could reasonably say this was rubbing salt in an open wound. In fact, (again)..If you notice, every time that just about enough time has passed for Andrea to get over one reason to be aggravated with Rick...often for the most well-intentioned but poorly executed reasons, Rick comes along and does something else that 99% of people in Andrea's place would be furious over.

Andrea has warranted reasons to treat Rick like shit, most of the time, I can see what you're saying here. It still isn't gonna make me sympathize with her character, because again...her delivery is lacking. She acts too much like a spoiled child, in a post-apocalyptic wasteland you just gotta let the petty shit go, and Andrea NEVER seems to be able to do that. Then she acts all surprised when people give her the cold shoulder when she returns to the prison, when she's literally held the most grudges over petty reasons of any character.


Breaking up Andrea's bitchiness into point-by-point incidents denies the basic reality of the character. Ie: Like Shane (totally different motives/mindsets), Andrea was subjected to offense after insult, after condescension after guilt-trip after lecture after snap-decision denying her her rights while giving those same rights to others no more worthy or deserving. It's a totality issue. When everyone around you is doing and saying things to alienate you, the first instinct is to withdraw from their company. The zombie apocalypse keeps one from doing that though. So, trapped with people who from one's perspective seem to be making it a habit to fuck with you, a poor attitude is going to be the least and most understandable of results.

Her warped perspective is the only reason she was being insulted or condescended to. They were the same rights taken from everyone else, besides Lori on that one occasion. She took personal offense to rules set in place for the entire group. Because of this, I'd say the character is either STUPID or SELFISH, maybe even a little bit of both.


When one sets out to assign blame, one's argument only holds water if you assign it fairly and objectively to all involved/connected to the behaviors which you are judging. Doing otherwise is simple cherry-picking of events that support one's point of view. (Something I know something about, having been guilty of it several times myself.)

Of course I'm cherry picking events, after all, I was attempting to illustrate her dis-likable traits (and the consistency of said traits) to express my own personal loathing of the character. I'm not trying to prove she's a bad character that everyone should hate, I was merely illustrating what about the character I personally found irritating enough to actively dislike her presence on the TV show.