Predictability (more for the readers than writers)

[deadpunk]

we've been at this for so long now. Since I've started actually using my subscribed membership benefits to catch up on reading, I've noticed that it's all becoming cookie-cutter to me. How can we keep it fresh after all this time? The biggest gripe on the site is that LAND was predictable and cookie cutter. I attribute that (alot) to the fact that the same story can be found in varying degrees throughout Neil's fiction section.

So, how we can breathe new life into the LD Fiction? How can we avoid giving readers the same tripe in a different story? Where is the next level and how do we get there?

[Exatreides]

Give me some time to write, I'll take care of the cookiecutterness :evil:

[kortick]

i agree
a lot of the stories are good but the same
people get trapped in some place, the dead break in, they die

but some of the stories are truly different
there are more than a few gems in there
keep looking
i dont remember the titles

but youd be surprised some people beat the cookie cutter

[Adrenochrome]

For what it's worth -
I'm working on one at the moment (for about 1 1/2 years) that deals with a schizophrenic that hallucinates the zombies. When he's not on his meds, his episodes cause him to "see feedings and walkers" in the oddest places.

BTW, deadpunk, your signature is from one of my favorite songs that some friends and I like to perform in the middle of belting out some blues/jazz tunes at Harlings on Saturdays here in KC.

[Scousezombie]

I understand the point that is being made about 'cookie cutter' stories.

Of course, all of GAR's zombie films, and NOTLD 90 and Dawn 04 dealt with a zombie siege situation of sorts, yet each had a very distinctive feel to it.

Zombie stories are ultimately about the living, and the way that people behave in a situation where they are (often) in imminent peril, and the normal rules of society are disintegrating.

The stories I have enjoyed the most contained interesting and believeable characters, and a dynamic setting (ie they didnt turn into a siege right away). People are still writing romance stories, and you'd think that would have been done to death by now! (pardon the pun).

[zombieparanoia]

I don't think there are many genres that don't fall into a cookie cutter scheme if broken down far enough yet there remain a great deal of amazing ideas out there still.

Look at romance stories: Boy and Girl are sad, Boy and Girl meet, Boy and Girl are happy together, miscommunication or act of god seperates the 2, they must overcome the odds to get back together and live happily ever after.

And nobody even gets eaten. What kind of bull**** is that?.

My point is that I think that there are a limited number of scenarios which will keep interest in this genre but from what I've read in the HpotD fiction area there seem a great number of interesting variations on the same scenarios. You want bad stories, go read some other fanfic forums, some of them are ****ing terrible hpotd seems to have a number of good writers.

[Neil]

You're telling me "Testament" is cookie cutter? :(

[Arcades057]

Deadpunk, I gotta agree to a point. A lot of the stories here are cookie cutter (people survive the undead, get scared, grab guns, shoot zombies, go crazy/run out of food/make a mistake/commit suicide, story ends).

It's refreshing now and then to see stories that stray from that vein and develop into something else. There is a story on here, a short one, where Lucifer speaks to God asking him why he's allowing Man to be devoured. REALLY good story and short enough to be catchy. That's the kind of story that I find interesting, one that I haven't seen done. I've done the demon thing, the one guy surviving, the group surviving, the special forces group story, and a couple others. I feel I avoid the cookie cutter most usually, I hope. Sometimes it's hard and there's no way to avoid it. I try to axe those.

I know you liked Generations, DP, and that's not cookie cutter at all. But it wasn't accepted here. I sent in a story about a zombie coming to life on an operating table, taking in the scenes as a group of doctors work on him trying to find out why the creature is so violent. At the end of the story you realize that it's not a zombie at all, but a human being; aliens came to Earth and found the world overrun by the living dead and seized this human, knowing that humans were the reason the dead came to life. This was also not accepted.

I tend to think the cookie cutter thing is not only a problem of the authors, but it may be that the majority of stories accepted happen to fall into that category, while many pieces of fiction that may feature the living dead too little are not accepted. No telling how many good things are refused. And we get poems instead...

[Neil]

I tend to think the cookie cutter thing is not only a problem of the authors, but it may be that the majority of stories accepted happen to fall into that category, while many pieces of fiction that may feature the living dead too little are not accepted. No telling how many good things are refused. And we get poems instead...

Almost all contributions are accepted. It's not as if only about half of submissions make it. I'd say more than 95% do.

[MinionZombie]

A good place to start for a writer would be to think of what you haven't seen or read in other zombie films/fiction - and then go from there.

Also - I think by now we've had enough of the "start of the plague" stuff, all that "huh...shooting the chest don't work, derh..." lol.

[zombieparanoia]

Almost all contributions are accepted. It's not as if only about half of submissions make it. I'd say more than 95% do.

If I can ask, what sort of things get a story not accepted? Just rules of thumb sort of thing. I've heard sexual content is to be kept um, "tasteful", grammar and spelling, no direct plagiarism etc but with stories like those arcades described I'm sort of wondering what may have been in them that caused rejection so if theres a topic of something I should avoid in my stories I can know before I write it in.

[Neil]

If I can ask, what sort of things get a story not accepted? Just rules of thumb sort of thing. I've heard sexual content is to be kept um, "tasteful", grammar and spelling, no direct plagiarism etc but with stories like those arcades described I'm sort of wondering what may have been in them that caused rejection so if theres a topic of something I should avoid in my stories I can know before I write it in.


Typically very poor grammar or spelling is the usual cause... I can only think of about one contribution that didn't make it due to strong sexual content etc...

[benjamin03]

Typically very poor grammar or spelling is the usual cause... I can only think of about one contribution that didn't make it due to strong sexual content etc...

Wich was ?? :D :evil: :evil:

[Exatreides]

Typically very poor grammar or spelling is the usual cause... I can only think of about one contribution that didn't make it due to strong sexual content etc...


I remember my lovers by a flame story made it, which I have considered off and on of writing or writign a sequel for, or would another tale of Kari and Jessica not be apropriate for the blood soaked head shot covered walls of HPOTD? :p

[panic]

I think one of the mistakes many young writers make is to focus too heavily on plot. Good stories arise from conflicts between people. While zombies are cool and can be used to great effect in fiction and film, it ultimately comes down to the characters in the story. Who are they? What motivates them? Can you relate to them? Think about the great novels or movies you have read and seen and ask yourself what makes them so memorable? Chances are there were a number of characters that you came to know and really care about.

~panic

Edit: Ahaha I'm such a tool, I spelled characterization wrong in the heading!

[Deadman_Deluxe]

A good place to start for a writer would be to think of what you haven't seen or read in other zombie films/fiction - and then go from there.

Great concept ... i like it :D

But then there is always the risk that with it NOT being so "cookie cutter" most people around here simply won't understand that you are actually trying to do something fresh or "new".

[deadpunk]

You're telling me "Testament" is cookie cutter? :(
I'd say this is one of the few that managed to dodge that bullet. Benjamin03 actually asked me once what my favorite story here was, and I believe that was the title I gave him. The reason? It actually had no zombies, yet took place in an LD world.

As Deadman_Deluxe suggests, thinking outside the box also has it's risks, particularly with this genre for some reason. Yet, I blame readers for this. I think most folk that are not entwined in writing LD Fic make the mistake of assuming that it is a subgenre of Horror, and not Sci-Fi. And at it's basest form, LD Fic deals mainly with survival and the continuity of the human species, which is more Sci-Fi than horror.

As for PLOT v. Character Development... characters will always break or make a story, for sure. But, I'd say plot is equally important. It seems the stories I liked least on this site had one thing in common: lack of plot altogether.

[benjamin03]

I'd say this is one of the few that managed to dodge that bullet. Benjamin03 actually asked me once what my favorite story here was, and I believe that was the title I gave him.


(lol quote thingn doesnt work with me - It does when an Admin fixes it for you!)

Yup he surely did :p , i think the things u said DP are completly right, and i also think that when u first get a taste for the zombiegenre as many youngerppl / teens do ( by watching dotd i started actually) u like the old cookiecutter theme , but then like me whenu have read lots of zombie stories , kindly offered by hotd ( thankyou neil :p ) u begin to crave for a newer thing , like most of u diehard hotd veterans . I mean for normal " beginnerlings " of teh LD genre those stories woulod seem liek total crap , i know they did when i got here first , but now i begin to feel it to .



benjamin




P.S : DP why haven't u answered my mail ?! : (

[deadpunk]

((What mail? I never got anything Ben, send it again?))

I agree that after several readings, or after newly entering the LD Genre, most of us begin to look for the next step. The question then becomes; how far can you step before you leave the genre altogether?

[Exatreides]

Aye cookie cutterness becomes quite...Old and craptacular as you read through fic after fic of teenage boy becoming a hero and saving the world, getting the girl, and riding into the sunset with a katana and m60 machine gun at his side.

However Fics that are original in their idea's or fic's that are deep in the char's development tend to get much higher ratings, and much more suport then the Cookie.

If you can make a story with a six headed talking zombie who controls his minions telepathicly and plots to overthrow the U.S goverment Go ahead (If you can make it good)

If you can make a story with a teenage boy who suddenly is thrust into the hero arena and must save the world Go ahead(If you can make it good)

ect ect

[benjamin03]

I must say tho , that i also am searching from more special stories these days , but when i read " Of mice and dead " ( DP's story ) i still loved it , i think it also has some kind of thing to it that the more normal LDfic has ( u have to admit DP , boy saves the dya , boy gets girl ) tho it is brought out in a very different way ( it's like a cookie-cutter , but AWESOME cookie-cutter , it's one of the cookie-cutter stoires that pretty much still own for me ) and i just reread it for the second time ( finsihed the last pages an hour ago ) . So to those of U who have membership , go read it ! and u ll be pleasantly surprised ! It gives a new but very realistic ( thats y i loved it so ) swing to the stories .When is the second one coming , i can't wait ?!

Benjamin


( k DP ill resend tonight )

[Neil]

I'd say this is one of the few that managed to dodge that bullet. Benjamin03 actually asked me once what my favorite story here was, and I believe that was the title I gave him. The reason? It actually had no zombies, yet took place in an LD world.

As Deadman_Deluxe suggests, thinking outside the box also has it's risks, particularly with this genre for some reason. Yet, I blame readers for this. I think most folk that are not entwined in writing LD Fic make the mistake of assuming that it is a subgenre of Horror, and not Sci-Fi. And at it's basest form, LD Fic deals mainly with survival and the continuity of the human species, which is more Sci-Fi than horror.

As for PLOT v. Character Development... characters will always break or make a story, for sure. But, I'd say plot is equally important. It seems the stories I liked least on this site had one thing in common: lack of plot altogether.

I never thought of that before, but you're right, LD sort of does live most of the time in SciFi, with periodic jumps into horror!

[deadpunk]

It never occurred to me either, until I started writing in this arena and frequenting the Fiction Discussion forum. The theme of survival fiction shows itself here quite frequently.

[Svengoolie]

Well, I think the reason why so many of the stories and characters in the fiction featured at this site are "cookie cutter" is because of the fact that most of the people producing these pieces are not writers, per se...but simply fans who liked what they saw on the screen and read at the site, and wanted to be a part of that. They're simply imitating what they like, and oftentimes they're doing that at great effort.

[Arcades057]

If I read a story that is crap, but I can tell that the author gave a good effort I still enjoy it. You can usually tell the people who put their hearts and souls into something and it's usually a worthwhile read.

I just read something about Lucifer talking to God and it was short, probably about a page long, but it was so friggin GOOD! I sat around and thought about the story and realized that it could be turned into a novel. If you're reading this, the mastermind behind that story, there is so much more that you can do with it. Take it and run with it, my friend. You have gold.

[deadpunk]

This was one of my first threads on the new forums, yet I still ponder this question.

I recently scrapped a story that I had started because after two pages, I realized it was the same old crap just spit out differently...:mad: