TWD 3x14 "Prey" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Keep discussion of 3x14 "Prey" within this thread only.

Don't talk about the episode in the shoutbox.

NO spoilers for future episodes either, please.

Comic book spoilers must be put into spoiler tags (not everyone has read the comics). If you don't know how to use spoiler tags, go to the HPOTD FAQ and look up the section on 'BB Codes'.


The Walking Dead Episode 314: Prey – “The Governor chases a dissenter who fled Woodbury. While the Governor is gone, a traitor tries to sabotage his upcoming plans.” Written By: Glen Mazzara & Evan Reilly Directed By: Stefan Schwartz

Good writing talent behind this one, and another new director by the looks of things, so should be an interesting one!

Preview clips and pics here: http://dailydead.com/the-walking-dead-10-photos-from-episode-314/

[Neil]

Expecting big things tonight...

Just hope we don't get a 'filler' episode to delay the oncoming storm!

[MinionZombie]

I'm expecting the beginning of my vindication for supporting Andrea in the face of all the hate she usually gets lumped with. :D

I imagine this episode will end on a teaserific cliffhanger - right on the cusp of all-out-war ... I have a feeling that tonight's episode is the veritable march towards said war as mental and physical battlements are raised and everybody prepares the eye-fuck the camera.

We'll see, I guess ... 3x13 had an 'eve of war' vibe to the end - the calm before the storm. Perhaps 3x14 will be like the sound of marching troops descending upon the battlefield...

I canny wait! :hyper:

[rongravy]

...and everybody prepares the eye-fuck the camera.
All this eye fucking, somebody's going to end up pregnant. Not me, I already picked up my morning after pills.
That, and weed's probably made me sterile years ago...

[Cykotic]

Do you think it was Milton that set the fire at the pits?

[facestabber]

Well Minion you may have got the beginning of your Andrea vindication but she may never be able to follow through. Hahaha. Sorry just had to give you grief

[babomb]

Pretty dicey!!
I'm gonna be seriously annoyed if this season ends without this whole situation being resolved in 1 way or another!!

How could Andrea have not learned ANYTHING from all that time spent with Michonne? She should've been able to hijack or at least disable the Gov's vehicle while he was fighting those walkers off.
He's got an answer for everything too. I thought Tyreese and Sasha were gonna revolt or try to escape somehow. But his slick tongue put an end to that.

Wonder what's gonna happen with milton now though??

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Do you think it was Milton that set the fire at the pits? Had to be.

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Well Minion you may have got the beginning of your Andrea vindication but she may never be able to follow through. Hahaha. Sorry just had to give you grief She won't die. Milton will release her. Or something will happen that results in her release. Andrea is sort of redeeming herself in my eyes. Sort of...

As to this Talking Dead poll, I don't think Martinez would continue the war on team prison if the Gov dies. At least not like the Gov is doing.

[AcesandEights]

Milton needs work on that poker face...at least he was better on his 2nd attempt (assuming the writers aren't purposely misdirecting us in some weird way).

[babomb]

I was thinking for a little while that maybe the Gov got bit when he was fighting off all those walkers.

[JonOfTheShred]

This was probably the best Woodbury centric episode of the series.

Glad to see Tyrese getting some development finally. Same goes for Sasha, who is yet another very viable "repopulate the world with" option. ;)

Governor is FINALLY getting as sadistic as in the comics. He set up those (comic spoilers)

Rape chains from the comic. Wonder if Andrea will get it even close to as bad as Michonne does in the comics? We'll see.....

I knew Governor wasn't dead when he was thrown to Walkers, but I really find it intriguing to consider he might have got bitten / scratched and will get increasingly more insane as the season wraps up. I hope he's dead by the season finale. Or perhaps....


Presumed dead like in the comics, only to show up again 4 episodes into next season to throw everyone off.


The entire Warehouse section was awesome. They really gave the Governor / Andrea stand-off feel like a slasher. Was some of the more tense stuff they've done this season, really big fan of that entire sequence.

Also think the burnt up zombies melted together was an awesome sight gag.

[Moon Knight]

I really did LOVE this episode. The Governor/Andrea warehouse scene did feel like a slasher lol.

Something someone said above reminded me of a little tidbit Glen Maz said right before the start of season 3.

The prison arc would last into season 4.

Anyway, once again a episode with a smaller cast really shines. Awesome.

[babomb]

I really did LOVE this episode. The Governor/Andrea warehouse scene did feel like a slasher lol.

Something someone said above reminded me of a little tidbit Glen Maz said right before the start of season 3.

The prison arc would last into season 4.

Anyway, once again a episode with a smaller cast really shines. Awesome. Yeah, I'd assume that they wouldn't leave the prison this season. But this whole war between the 2 camps should be resolved this season.
Otherwise the season finale will just leave too much to be desired.

[facestabber]

I'm a huge Rick Grimes fan but if he plans on defending the prison by standing out in the open, this will be a quick fight.

This was a great episode. Nice to dive into tyrese and Sasha's character and see they have sense left. And Milton. I like him. Hope he sticks around

[Legion2213]

I really did LOVE this episode. The Governor/Andrea warehouse scene did feel like a slasher lol.

Straight down to the govs creepy little "I'm a'comin to kill ya" whistle. :D

Not the best episode for me to be honest, then again, you can see how things are turning bad for mr slick governor as the more decent Woodburry folks start wondering about his intentions/sanity/decency

Also a bit pissed off at how easy it was for him to pounce on Andrea when she got to the prison

2 episodes to go people...let's hope that they are epic!

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I was thinking for a little while that maybe the Gov got bit when he was fighting off all those walkers.

Thought that myself, wouldn't be too shocked if he's seen treating a bite in the next episode.

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I'm a huge Rick Grimes fan but if he plans on defending the prison by standing out in the open, this will be a quick fight.

This was a great episode. Nice to dive into tyrese and Sasha's character and see they have sense left. And Milton. I like him. Hope he sticks around

Would hope to see all three survive the war and end up on "Team Ricktatorship"

[zomtom]

Poor Andrea. She was so close to the prison and that damned Govenor. I screamed at my television. I like the Andrea character and I miss her not being with the original group. I'm hoping by season's end, she'll be back with Rick and company as well as Tyrese and Sasha. Wouldn't mind if Milton traded camps as well. I think he would be a great addition to the prison camp. Quite likeable, tho I predict he will take over leadership of Woodbury once the Gov gets knocked off.

[babomb]

Not the best episode for me to be honest, then again, you can see how things are turning bad for mr slick governor as the more decent Woodburry folks start wondering about his intentions/sanity/decency

Also a bit pissed off at how easy it was for him to pounce on Andrea when she got to the prison

2 episodes to go people...let's hope that they are epic! I thought it was decent, but nothing too great. The 2nd half of this season has all been like that for me to be honest. The season premiere was excellent IMO. And then it just dropped off from there. With the exception of "Clear", and the episodes where they assault woodbury.
I think the logical inconsistencies are starting to get to me too much. The episodes I like are the ones that make logical sense. But some of the other ones, mostly the woodbury episodes, they just don't fit well it seems. And it seems like they're getting more and more play as the season goes on.
They're building up the suspense for this war so much. Which is what I want to see. So every episode that doesn't involve preparations for that annoy me a little.
I was also annoyed that Andrea was taken down so easily. She was tired, but the Gov had to be beat too. He just battled it out with a dozen or so walkers. But all she had to do when she saw Rick was call out.



Thought that myself, wouldn't be too shocked if he's seen treating a bite in the next episode. Me neither. That'd be a game changer though. I welcome it. It's way too late for Milton to amputate something to save him too. It's in his blood, he'll soon get the fever and then game over.



Would hope to see all three survive the war and end up on "Team Ricktatorship" I'd like to see several folks from Woodbury integrate with the prison group. Even Martinez would make a good addition.

[Wyldwraith]

Parts I like, but on the whole this episode came off a loser for me,
Once AGAIN the writers had to heavy-handedly intervene to make things turn out in favor of the Governor. Their reasons for doing so are as transparent as glass, as seen in the previews for next week. They weren't done having Rick agonize over the "To hand or not hand Michonne over" crap. Andrea making it to the prison would've nixed that, so I knew as surely as knowing whatever nameless Red-shirt security guy beams down with Kirk's landing party to the unknown alien planet will bite it, that Andrea had a 0.00% chance of reaching the prison.

I mean C'MON, she turned loose DOZENS of Walkers on a guy armed with a pistol and whatever rounds are already in it and maybe the shovel. Not ONLY does the Governor escape a situation that's been the death of literally BILLIONS of people, but he does it with such ease and poise he still manages to prepare and successfully execute an ambush of Andrea....because of COURSE he'd just "KNOW" which of the dozen-degree compass-point angles from which she might choose to approach the prison.

This goes beyond a pet peeve for me when an entire season's plot of a show is utterly shaped, orchestrated and most importantly QUITE VISIBLY directed on an episode-by-episode basis by improbably and thus poorly contrived fiat-style plot devices. If the writers couldn't think of a better way to lengthen the duration of Rick's moral agonizing over the Governor's patently transparent ultimatum, that element should have been allowed to run its course and die this episode. To continue its existence by virtue of having a single civilian perform a feat that, under the same circumstances, a single Special Forces operator would find significantly challenging, draws back the curtain for me to the degree that the show might as well have cut off, and a brief documentary-like appearance by one or more of the writers pop-up, wherein they explain that they're just so in love with the ultimatum sub-plot that they can't under any circumstances allow it to end one second sooner than is absolutely possible.

When the Governor snagged Andrea the single reason I didn't turn it off was I wanted to see in car-accident-rubbernecking fashion just how bad they were going to allow it to be. This had to be in the Top 3 worst TWD episodes of all time. Right up there with emo farm melodrama.

They had a BEAUTIFUL opportunity to, in a very fluid/organic manner resolve the pretense that has been the Governor/Rick's meeting/planned meeting but actually ambush and ultimatum, and decisively draw up battle lines and go classic Good Vs. Evil in the clash...but instead they chose to nix that in favor of Rick finally telling the rest of Team Prison about the ultimatum and present it like it's STILL a credible option. I don't like to judge PEOPLE based on ideas they have...especially in the area of creative endeavor...but whoever looked at the options they had and decided that this choice-path was their creative pinnacle of optimal storytelling is, quite frankly, a MORON IMO.

Plus, for those of you who couldn't care in the slightest about Andrea or Michonne's fates...this farce is by extension how they turn a straightforward limited-resource/limited-manpower border war into the annoying six month+ cliffhanger that someone decided the world would end if TWD didn't end EVERY SINGLE SEASON on. We lose the next episode to prison melodrama that we the audience knows makes no difference because of what happened this episode. Which is why I rate this as among the top 3 worst episodes. It not only manages to wreck the current episode with a contrived ending, but wrecks the FOLLOWING episode before it ever had a chance.

[babomb]

Great points Wyld.
Kinda the same type of thing that's been bugging me about this season. When you consider all the things they could do, and then see what they actually decide to do, it just annoys the piss out of me.
Started out good with the premiere, and then they systematically destroy the season with plot device after plot device.

[kidgloves]

Thought this was a pretty poor episode tbh. Didn't help that it had the standard abandoned warehouse sequence that ive hated since the latter days of the x-files (every episode seemed to have one as they ran out of ideas). I found some of the acting and dialogue between Tyreese and Allen to be quite terrible. Nice nod to the comics with Tyreese though, not being able to hit shit with a rifle. Give the man a deluxe hammer :D.
Also want Milton to stay around. It must have been him who torched the walkers (the ones laying in the pit were quite disturbing). Who else would it be? Why keep it a mystery? We know it wasn't Tyreese' group.

[AcesandEights]

I was thinking for a little while that maybe the Gov got bit when he was fighting off all those walkers.

Interesting idea, good forethought!

[facestabber]

Good points Wylde. Though I enjoyed this episode as a whole, there are some minor annoyances. At times I feel guilty nitpicking at all because, problems and all, this has been my 3 favorite years of television in my lifetime.

It is clear that TWD has grown and gathered fans at rates never before seen for the zombie genre. Commercials, action figures you name it, it now exists. Heck even a zombie survival clip on the Talking Dead, which honestly keeps me up at night KNOWING that there are people who actually believe it will happen. But my point is this huge commercial success has caused some dumbing down. Now people I said 'some'.

1. The ninja like zombie appearances are beyond horrible. As Andrea leaned against the tree I looked toward my girlfriend and said any second now a zombie should be reaching between the branches and grabbing her. As we all know I was 100% correct. Then we have a group converge on her which just happened to appear. How any of our group has survived this long when walkers can walk right up behind them unnoticed. This crap happens too much. Rick, Carl and Michonne stuck in the mud and all of a sudden they are surrounded by half a dozen or so walkers. Going for the cheap scare is probably what got the large audience to join in our(zombie fans since the 80's) cause. For some reason it works for the American Idol watching masses. But to myself it is just irritating. The writers have shown the ability to knock some episodes out of the ball park without the cheap crap.

2. To expand on Wyld's points about the plot contrived to give unrealistic advantages to the predetermined outcome. The Gov has become the new Jason, Michael Myers etc. Always knows right where to hide in wait. As Wylde has said for the Gov to know the exact approach Andrea would take is simply unrealistic. The fact that he could find her in a field was already too much but the ability to ambush her at the prison gates of friendly reunion. Minion you may be happy to hear part of me was actually excited to see Andrea back to the group....I feel stupid that the Gov's ambush got me. I knew he wasnt dead because when he goes its going to be graphic and epic. But to silence a grown man/woman without knocking them out just doesnt happen. It was just too much BS.

Again I enjoyed this episode but I enjoy chiming in and read everyones responses on this show. It makes an hour episode last a week by seeing feedback.

[AcesandEights]

The ninja like zombie appearances are beyond horrible. As Andrea leaned against the tree I looked toward my girlfriend and said any second now a zombie should be reaching between the branches and grabbing her.

I said the same thing to my wife! These 'ninja' zombie appearances, as you call them, are definitely overused and a sign of sloppy writing and directing. I couldn't agree more.

Honestly, it didn't used to bother me, but when it's really blatant and you end up letting it slide every, or every other episode you start to roll your eyes in advance of it happening.

[Wyldwraith]

Thank you all and excellent points of your own,
I particularly felt that you got what I was driving at 100% facestabber with your comments about the Governor being endowed with slasher-film-villain powers in order to force certain outcomes into existence. I thought some more about the scene where Andrea turned the Walkers loose on the Governor. If you noticed, the acoustics in the warehouse SERIOUSLY AMPLIFIED the report each time the Governor fired his pistol in rapid succession. Add to that the Walkers that no doubt saw either Andrea or the Governor's vehicle when he drove up to and parked at the warehouse, and it equals a serious oversight that there weren't 6-9 Walkers minimum in the general vicinity of the Gov's ride after all the noise. It was another case of the double-standard when it comes to the disparity of results between what happens when members of Team Prison are outside secured areas and fail to be stealthy, and what happens when Team Woodbury behaves in the exact same manner. Team Prison = Draws Walkers from every direction in 2's-3's, but Team Woodbury MIGHT cause one highly visible Walker to show up, that's seen from quite some distance away.

I don't even believe it's a subjective and therefore arguable point concerning the Michonne Ultimatum sub-plot any longer. Factually speaking, time spent on said sub-plot at this juncture simply detracts from the war-footing elements of the story. It's uninteresting and, quite simply a waste of air-time. We all want to see how the second meeting that the Governor is planning to turn into a massacre will play out, we want to know how, when push comes to the make-or-break shove, how Tyreese & Sasha are going to react to finding themselves in the midst of an inhuman monster's insane quest for revenge and megalomaniacal domination or destruction of all remaining humans. We want to see if our as yet unidentified saboteur intends to go further in attempting to hamstring the Gov's evil campaign. Finally, we want to see how the fight between the opposing factions, and by extension who returns to Team Prison, gets underway and begins to illustrate the consequences of the conflict....and even what happens to Andrea.

Instead we're getting at least 25-30 minutes of 60 next week of Rick "dropping the bombshell" about the ultimatum, plus a repeat of Herschel trying to convince Merle he really does have an opportunity to change how the rest of Team Prison sees him, and thereby fit in. If you combine that with a flashover to Woodbury with the Governor preening and prepping to do evil evil things to Andrea, while all the while spouting a stream of self-justification and ranting about her disloyalty maybe...that's pretty much 60 minutes right there.

I could be wrong, and they might actually squeeze in Rick & Co. showing up to the 2nd meeting only to be ambushed...but IF they've incorporated that (And I seriously doubt they have,...much more likely they'll be heading off to the meeting at the tail end of the next episode. Or how else would Rick having a round-robin with the group concerning the Michonne ultimatum even come into play?) it will be near the tail-end as I said and quickly devolve into another The Governor Has All The Cards evil-Mary Sue execution of his plan.

Ever so convenient that it turns out Woodbury recovered box after box after box of .50 ammo for the mounted .50.....ignoring the fact that as an extremely effective crowd (and thus horde)-clearing device the National Guardsmen, who were traveling in the same small area where at the time at least 2 massive migrating hordes were on the perimeter of (based on the movement information concerning hordes being all over the area at the Season opener) would have had extremely dangerous (and probably repeated) encounters where the .50 would've been by far the most effective means of mowing down a horde (even if it didn't kill a great many of them) so the convoy could move past/over the downed bodies.

Even the torching of the Walker-filled trailer and pit will in all likelihood prove to be no hindrance to the Gov's nefarious scheming. For me at least, the writers have sucked almost all the suspense and excited anticipation over the coming war between Teams Prison and Woodbury with their compulsion to mitigate down to the trivial any setback the Gov's side suffers, and their too-convenient "it just so happened" plot devices that give advantage after advantage, and victory after victory to the Governor.

Why couldn't they, I dunno, craft a story wherein while well-entrenched/supplied...the severe hardships of not only being in the midst of a zombie apocalypse, but also being at war with the only other human collective they know of, lead to an up-and-down rollercoaster of never knowing who would have the upper hand six hours from now? Even the U.S military, with their VAST technological, supply, logistical and intelligence gathering supremacy STILL struggled BITTERLY to drive out, or isolate and then neutralize insurgent-held positions. THAT is war. What they've give us this season is a boogeyman who's been on writer-fiat life support almost from the very beginning. I just wish they'd created a scary Governor...given him the scary yet realistically limited superiority in supplies/firepower required to make Team Prison sweat...and then let the conflict swing back and forth showcasing the fortunes of war. At the very first, when Glenn & Maggie were kidnapped and Team Prison sprung them it looked like that might be in the cards...but everything since has been the Governor's way, right away, at TWD now.

[Morto Vivente]

I really did LOVE this episode. The Governor/Andrea warehouse scene did feel like a slasher lol.

Something someone said above reminded me of a little tidbit Glen Maz said right before the start of season 3.


Anyway, once again a episode with a smaller cast really shines. Awesome.

I enjoyed the Guv/Andrea stalker sequence too. As for the creepy whistle it's a lullaby called Bye Baby Bunting:

Bye Baby Bunting,
Daddy's gone a hunting,
Gone to get a rabbit skin,
To wrap his bay bunting in

No doubt the Governor used to sing this to his daughter before the apocalypse hit. I think he sings it to her in an earlier episode before Michonne turned her into a walker-kebab.

The ease with which he located and subdued Andrea after the warehouse sequence was a bit far fetched though, it detracted from Andrea's fate as the episode concluded. IMO a weak ending to a fair enough episode.

[MinionZombie]

I enjoyed the episode over all ... were there little issues? Sure, but I keep them in perspective as the overall picture that is TWD is so good.

Personally speaking at least, paying so much mind to such minor issues would ruin the experience for me - yes, they need to do some work when it comes to setting up certain zombie appearances etc, but no doubt this is something they're looking into for season four (remember how sprightly some of the walkers were in season one by accident? remember the fence-climbing in 1x02? Yeah, they shot those mistakes down come season two).

I think Martinez is too far gone - or too compromised, rather - as a result of being under the Governor's leadership. He's not necessarily an evil man, but he's done too many evil things to join Team Prison. However, I do hope (and expect) Tyreese, Sasha and Milton (who I'm a big fan of) join the Ricktatorship (Milton wants to deep down, I think, but is too frightened at this stage ... but that was before he got into direct conflict with The Governor out on the street).

The torture chamber looks creepy as all get-out ... did anyone else notice the speculum (that's what they're called, right?) on the table? *shudders*

Pace wise, I'm a little ancy to get to the battle to be honest ... I think this elongated build up will work better when I watch it according to my own pacing preference (e.g. back-to-back viewings) rather than week-to-week (remember how different the pacing of 2x01 through 2x07 felt when you watched them week-to-week, then according to your own far quicker schedule?)

3x16 is clearly going to be the big finale (a la 2x13), but hopefully there's enough stuff going down in 3x15 that it doesn't feel too much like a third-tease-in-a-row, you know?

Like all TWD episodes, I loved it, it's my favourite show, but watching it week-to-week does make me a smidge over-eager to get into the meat of the situation.

Plenty on offer to enjoy though ... Allen and Ben can still go fuck themselves, but I'd readily welcome Tyreese and Sasha (and Milton! Hooray for Milton!) ... some very cool stuff dotted throughout, certainly.


Do you think it was Milton that set the fire at the pits?

Totally. He's Milton: Undercover Badass.


Well Minion you may have got the beginning of your Andrea vindication but she may never be able to follow through. Hahaha. Sorry just had to give you grief

She's too big a character, there's so much more to do with her, and she's been away from the Ricktatorship for so long that we need her back. It looks like she'll be taking on part of the role that originally went to someone else in the comics, but it won't be as grisly. It makes sense though, they've been like two awkward peas in sort of the same pod for a while, so it's almost like Andrea is The Governor's new possession.

It also makes sense that we've had to build up to him creating a torture chamber - the second death of Penny-Z was what tipped him over the edge and destroyed the last remnants of his humanity and he's been falling further and faster into his own private hell which he seeks to master by any means necessary.

I'm feeling the vindication coming on though ... I knew Michonne would win people over after initial moans from some quarters, and sure enough she did ... likewise I knew/know that Andrea has been going through an extended transformation.


Milton needs work on that poker face...at least he was better on his 2nd attempt (assuming the writers aren't purposely misdirecting us in some weird way).

Yeah, lying isn't his specialty is it? ("He's ... out on a run?" :lol:) ... Then again, maybe he wanted the Guv'nah to know it was him.



The entire Warehouse section was awesome. They really gave the Governor / Andrea stand-off feel like a slasher. Was some of the more tense stuff they've done this season, really big fan of that entire sequence.

Also think the burnt up zombies melted together was an awesome sight gag.

Aye, I dug the warehouse sequence too - nice and tense with a lot of playing with sound going on. Very creepy - a one-on-one ... even if it was blindingly obvious that he wasn't dead at the hands of those walkers. The pantomime villain appearance right at the end was a bit of an iffy reveal ... and if the keys weren't in the truck, I'd have slashed the tyres - but then again, in Andrea's defense, she totally thought The Governor was dead-by-walkers ... clearly a fateful oversight on her part for which she'll be punished, but that's a common theme in TWD - making decisions that come back to haunt you, either through a lack of foresight/just-to-be-safe actions, or when trying to do the right thing you end up causing another problem (or not having enough time to complete your intended objective).

And yes - the burned walkers was gleefully ghastly. A really nice touch - very gruesome, very cool. Good work KNB!



No doubt the Governor used to sing this to his daughter before the apocalypse hit. I think he sings it to her in an earlier episode before Michonne turned her into a walker-kebab.

The ease with which he located and subdued Andrea after the warehouse sequence was a bit far fetched though, it detracted from Andrea's fate as the episode concluded. IMO a weak ending to an above average episode.

Yeah - he plays that music to Penny-Z as he combs her hair in an early episode etc ... he's listened to it a couple of times (in a recent episode too, I think, when chilling out in his flat with a drink before Andrea confronted him saying she wanted to go to the prison).

...

Naturally, here's some memes - http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?20029-Get-out-of-here-Carl!!!!-The-TWD-memes-lols-thread&p=295649#post295649

[Saurian]

What if it was Martinez that torched the walkers? He did say before he hated them for what he did to his family and maybe is having a slight change of heart since warming up to daryl a bit. Be a quick turn around on the story and could make things interesting.

[babomb]

I don't like the whole "walkers-in-the-woods" thing. No matter where or how it's used. Ok, there'd be some sporadic walkers strewn throughout the woods, realistically. But it seems like everytime people set foot in the woods they're immediately swarmed by multiple walkers.
It's one of those simple plot devices the writers rely on over and over.
And what about all the walkers in the warehouse? That warehouse had been abandoned for 20 years before the world went to shit. What would've caused all those walkers to be grouped up in the stairwells? Aside from a simple plot device?
Things much smaller than this have been recognized and criticized for years by people when it comes to other zombie flicks.. But the writers of TWD seem to get a pass on almost every cheap gag and mediocre plot device.

I love the show as much as most everyone else here. But this is what we do here. We pick apart zombie flicks because we aren't your standard viewer, or "American Idol watching masses" as it was so eloquently put earlier.
So it seems hypocritical to give TWD such a huge pass on things that just don't fly, especially when much smaller oversights are picked apart endlessly and in guiltless fashion when done in other films.
It just seems odd that the creators of TWD strive to set this apart in many other ways, but have no problem with continuous logical oversights and endless reliance on contrived plot devices.

Oh, and the burnt walkers were awesome! They looked just like the walkers from the comics.

[ProfessorChaos]

I thought it was decent, but nothing too great. The 2nd half of this season has all been like that for me to be honest. The season premiere was excellent IMO. And then it just dropped off from there.

this kinda sums up how i feel....

also, was anyone else as dumbfounded by andrea's behavior during the chase sequence with the governor? as soon as she heard an approaching vehicle, given that she had just fled woodbury, she should have dropped flat to the ground....rather than standing there like a deer-in-headlights. she was pulling the same "t-rex in jurrasic park/if-i-don't-move-he-can't-see-me-LOL!" logic when she was standing right in the middle of the only window looking down into the torture room with milton.

also, she could have tried taking the governor's truck while he was whistling his way around the abandoned building she just happened to go into (like 's he's some sort of bloodhound or something)....and if she found no keys, she could at least make an attempt at slashing the governor's tires, breaking his shift handle off, or doing something real quick to sabotage his ride.

i honestly hope that it wasn't milton who torched the walkers, i may actually be surprised.

this episode fell flat for me and i'm honestly ready for this season to end....the more i watch the walking the dead, the more i just want breaking bad to return this summer.

[rongravy]

I thought it would have been hilarious if after Rick almost saw Andrea through his rifle scope in the tower, he shrugged it off and went back to his game of Crazy Eights at the table with Lori and Shane...

[shootemindehead]

Worst written episode I've seen yet.

[sandrock74]

And what about all the walkers in the warehouse? That warehouse had been abandoned for 20 years before the world went to shit. What would've caused all those walkers to be grouped up in the stairwells?

How do you know it had been abandonded for 20 years? Did I miss some line of dialogue establishing that?

What are the Walkers doing grouped in the stairwell? Clearly they were people hiding out in the warehouse at some point earlier during the zombie apocalypse, someone turned, everyone is now a zombie. Why in the stariwell? Why not? Maybe the last survivor or two chucked the bodies down that stairwell. Maybe they all congregated there because one of them thought they heard something. We know that the Walkers have a pack mentality; they could have been standing in that stairwell for weeks! Thats no stretch knowing what we do of their typical behavior.

The only thing I really have a problem with is that zombies shouldn't be able to surprise anyone with the sense of smell. Think about it, youd be able to smell a zombie well before you saw or heard them! Thats never really addressed in most zombie movies. I understand that smell is a limitation that movies/tv has imposed on it, so I just accept that smelly-assed zombies can sneak up on someone. The smell of those burned zombies in the pit didn't seem to bother anyone either, when in reality, they should have been puking from the stench of burned human flesh and hair! I just accept it; not that big a deal to me.

I do agree with you on those burned Walkers, by the way! They looked totally awesome....you know, in a freaky way. It was gross how they seemed to be fused together! We need to see more stuff like that.

[babomb]

this kinda sums up how i feel....

also, was anyone else as dumbfounded by andrea's behavior during the chase sequence with the governor? as soon as she heard an approaching vehicle, given that she had just fled woodbury, she should have dropped flat to the ground....rather than standing there like a deer-in-headlights. she was pulling the same "t-rex in jurrasic park/if-i-don't-move-he-can't-see-me-LOL!" logic when she was standing right in the middle of the only window looking down into the torture room with milton.

also, she could have tried taking the governor's truck while he was whistling his way around the abandoned building she just happened to go into (like 's he's some sort of bloodhound or something)....and if she found no keys, she could at least make an attempt at slashing the governor's tires, breaking his shift handle off, or doing something real quick to sabotage his ride.

I was thinking all this same stuff while watching it. When she was standing there in the field I was shaking my head thinking-lay the fuck down dumb ass. When she was moving through the warehouse I kept thinking-throw something to the other side of the place, and grab a bigger weapon. There's weapons all over that place.

And she just nonchalantly walks out of the place while the Gov is fighting for his life, and doesn't even think to take the vehicle or try to disable it. She had time. If there were no keys, she could slash tires, or if all else fails pop the hood and start cutting and ripping cables. Then when the Gov ambushes her outside the prison, come on!? No woman is that helpless and easily subdued! They're a flailing mess of flying arms and legs. They'll elbow, knee, kick, scratch, punch, slap. Even if just long enough to get his hand off her mouth so she could yell out.
This is what I'm talking about. A bunch of convenient plot devices and lapses in logic have plagued this season. I don't remember season 1&2 having so much of that and so blatantly divisive.

[Wyldwraith]

I agree with pretty much everything you said wholeheartedly babomb,
TWD keeps getting these passes for poorly designed scenes and transparently-contrived plot devices because people are just SO ECSTATIC to have a zombie TV show. What the adherents of the "the problems you guys are pointing out are just minor irritations in an otherwise great series" mindset don't seem to get is the fact that Past truly IS Prologue. Ever since mid-season 2, the writers have begun relying on the "this plot device is so visibly contrived the words "It's happening because we say so!" might as well flash on the screen or scroll across the bottom of said screen during those scenes. People always underestimate the power of feedback. More than once already the writers have been directed to make HIGHLY SIGNIFICANT CHANGES to what had been the established plan for that portion of the plot due to feedback of an overwhelming nature after the previous season aired.

It's wonderful to have a zombie apocalypse-themed show on TV, but I EXPECT those involved in its ongoing creation to a) remain vigilant against complacency, and b) Consistently and constantly strive to top their best efforts to date. I'm sorry, but pretty much the whole of the clash between Teams Woodbury and Prison has been plagued by highlighted fiat-style plot devices that for many of us prevent true immersion and suspension of disbelief. Unexplained/unsupported treasure troves of information and supplies to puff up Woodbury, the Governor's newest "disarm everyone policy" JUST SO HAPPENING to go into effect right as Andrea was going to go over the wall, the Woodbury spies at the prison being utterly immune to the "go into the woods and 4-8 Walkers will sneak up on you at once, each and every time" despite being on foot and directing a great deal of their attention towards the prison. Not to mention the sudden loss of 90% of Team Prison's firearms accuracy during the Governor's raid (I'm sorry, but the whole "zombies don't shoot back, so of course Team Prison's accuracy would be affected" just doesn't hold water in cases like the sniper in the guard tower who STOPPED SHOOTING for significant intervals...with Maggie being in possession of the optimal cover, field of fire/distance to target, and weapon to eliminate him. Or the non-reactive turned-stupid response by Michonne to the Walker truck's approach and then its driver's dash to freedom.)

When you cap all that off with the contrived outcomes of this latest episode, just to create an episode filled with "The Governor wants Michonne, should we give her to him?" and other uncertainty/non-resolution in the face of the Governor's monolithically systematic preparations, you get the biggest fiat-device of them all, Ie: "We're going to delay any sense of finality in Team Prison's decision-making, and continue to foster a ridiculously unsupported and unrealistic air of uncertainty that is dominating their actions so the conflict doesn't in any way begin to sensibly equalize as each side's advantages/disadvantages come to bear. All in the name of dragging both the primary storyline and the related sub-plots out in the most obviously artificial and unenjoyable of ways, so as to create an unnecessary, undesirable, unwanted and show-harming cliffhanger. Which will allow us to carry this through well into a significant percentage of Season 4."

Giving them a pass for all that is the exact same thing as giving them your blessing for them to turn TWD into the Survival Horror equivalent of Professional Wrestling. You know, how each week the good and bad guys posture and threaten, and maybe a little minor clash occurs here and there...but 98.5% of the time SOMETHING ALWAYS HAPPENS to delay and prevent the clash from escalating until the big Pay-per-View event. That's what Season 3 has been almost in its entirety when it comes to all things Woodbury...nothing but sound and fury signifying nothing but improbable villain-successes, negation of villain setbacks, and the slow-as-a-constipated-snail-in-winter pacing thats turned what properly done should've taken start to finish 55-75% of ONE SEASON...not 87.5% of Season 3 and 20-40% of Season 4 (not counting the interpersonal fallout after the final clash).

I for one will praise TWD for doing what no one else has dared to do on TV, for excellent casting, makeup and in many cases set choices...and for bringing the zombie apocalypse to life and making we viewers care about the intrepid survivors. What I will NOT do is minimize and look away from the show's warts and boils. It has problems that if allowed to grow further could kill it long before its natural time, and as fans we do our beloved show no service when we fail to criticize the failures as ardently as we praise its successes. Without a healthy capacity to differentiate between the gold and the crap, how are we to play our part in indicating where the creators of this creative work have triumphed and where they need to redouble their efforts to continue the show's rise?

[babomb]

How do you know it had been abandonded for 20 years? Did I miss some line of dialogue establishing that?

What are the Walkers doing grouped in the stairwell? Clearly they were people hiding out in the warehouse at some point earlier during the zombie apocalypse, someone turned, everyone is now a zombie. Why in the stariwell? Why not? Maybe the last survivor or two chucked the bodies down that stairwell. Maybe they all congregated there because one of them thought they heard something. We know that the Walkers have a pack mentality; they could have been standing in that stairwell for weeks! Thats no stretch knowing what we do of their typical behavior.

The only thing I really have a problem with is that zombies shouldn't be able to surprise anyone with the sense of smell. Think about it, youd be able to smell a zombie well before you saw or heard them! Thats never really addressed in most zombie movies. I understand that smell is a limitation that movies/tv has imposed on it, so I just accept that smelly-assed zombies can sneak up on someone. The smell of those burned zombies in the pit didn't seem to bother anyone either, when in reality, they should have been puking from the stench of burned human flesh and hair! I just accept it; not that big a deal to me.

I do agree with you on those burned Walkers, by the way! They looked totally awesome....you know, in a freaky way. It was gross how they seemed to be fused together! We need to see more stuff like that.

The burnt walkers were excellent. They looked like the ones from the comics. The way their lips were all wilted and melted away, revealing their teeth. And small amounts of sporadic hair patches, darkened skin. That moment was very true to the source material.
About the warehouse, just one look at the outside and inside and you know it had been abandoned for years before the apocalypse hit. It was either part of an old slaughterhouse or a really old machine shop. Maybe even a large feed and grain processing and storage facility. But no matter what it was when it was in use, it's OLD now. All the windows outside were busted from kids throwing rocks and shooting guns, graffiti everywhere. It was old corrugated tin construction, busted up concrete foundation, the old watertower. That was only there cuz someone kept tools in it and used it for general storage because it had been there for ages. At best it was somewhat recently used to house broken down farm equipment meant for salvage. Had that been an urban area, it could've been an old industrial district on the outskirts of a city. In that case it would make some sense for all those walkers to be there maybe, since those places are used by homeless people. But that's not an urban area, and it was clearly well out of the way. There wasn't even a concrete road leading to it.
I've been to places that looked real similar. There's a few places in town here that resemble that. I've been the kid that busts out the windows on old places like that, graffiti's it up, shoots the place up with a shotgun. Places like that are common in rural areas like mine, and like the filming location in the show.
It's the kind of place that rural kids go to party before they're old enough to go to a bar.
That makes it seem like just a convenient location for the suspenseful chase scene between Andrea and the Gov. And having that many walkers in the stairwell seems like a convenient device to allow Andrea to escape. As far as convenient devices go, it's low on the scale. It's not that bothersome. I only mentioned it to illustrate how much the writers are relying on these devices, and how they aren't very logically designed devices. Sort of like the scene where Andrea goes 50ft off the road, on an incline even, and is suddenly ambushed by a group of 4 or 5 walkers.
I guess it's only an issue for me because it IS TWD. And I kind of had higher hopes and expectations. And it seems a bit lazy. And I'm hoping that this laziness isn't an indication of the decline of the series, that eventually spirals further downward and results in the termination of the show.

I've never been a big TV person. I've always been into movies. This is really the 1st TV show I ever cared about, and the only one I actually watch and look forward to every week. There's other ones I watch when I see them on. But i don't make a point to watch them when they air. I'm also a fan of the comics. So I don't want this show to go down in flames as so many other ones are known to do.
When the premiere aired, I thought it was an indication of what to expect from this season. But it's just gone downhill from there. And it seems to be due to lazy writing.

[krisvds]

And so TWD season 3 continues its journey to boring, middle of the road, action drama. I guess we just got lucky with 'Clear' and are back to boring mediocrity with these past two episodes.
They are still kind of enjoyable to watch, but mainly because I like the genre not because of actual content. All of this sloppy writing and poor characterisation has made the show very unbelievable to me. Up to the point where I just stop caring about any of these characters fates.

Anyone else had to laugh out loud at the gov' driving down that field and repeatedly honking the horn? Hilarious stuff.
all the unstoppable killer that just keeps coming clichés in the episode where funny as well.

this show is going from 'where is the dread?' to 'this stuff is unintentionally funny' fast. Let's hope they somehow can turn things around for the last two episodes and the next season.

[Neil]

also, she could have tried taking the governor's truck while he was whistling his way around the abandoned building she just happened to go into (like 's he's some sort of bloodhound or something)....and if she found no keys, she could at least make an attempt at slashing the governor's tires, breaking his shift handle off, or doing something real quick to sabotage his ride.
Yes, I wondered why when she left the warehouse she didn't see if she could pinch his truck, or at least knife a tyre!

- - - Updated - - -


Why in the stairwell? Why not?
They were on that side of the building and heard noise from down there? So went down the stairs in a pack as they tend to?

[MinionZombie]

Yes, I wondered why when she left the warehouse she didn't see if she could pinch his truck, or at least knife a tyre!

1) She assumed he was dead, so why bother knifing his tyres if she assumes he's dead. Turned out to be a big mistake, but you can see the thought process.
2) The Governor would take the keys with him - you're not going to leave a sweet ride outside with the keys in it - plus Andrea won't know how to hotwire a car.

Simples.

BTW - my 19,000th post. :stunned::D

[kidgloves]

Maybe Morgan burned the walkers :confused:

[MinionZombie]

Maybe Morgan burned the walkers :confused:

Laurie Holden on The Talking Dead said it was "pretty obvious" that it was Milton ... whether that's 100% confirmation or not, who knows - but I certainly read it that way. Milton knows the Governor knows and vice versa. Plus, Milton knows where the pits are and has easy access to get to them as well as having the ease of passage in and out of Woodbury as one of the residents. I can't imagine it's Morgan as not only would he not know where the pits are (let alone know of them), but if he was going to go anywhere it'd be the Prison (assuming Rick left him directions to get there off-camera).

Plus it makes sense for it to be Milton thematically speaking.

[Legion2213]

Laurie Holden on The Talking Dead said it was "pretty obvious" that it was Milton ... whether that's 100% confirmation or not, who knows - but I certainly read it that way. Milton knows the Governor knows and vice versa. Plus, Milton knows where the pits are and has easy access to get to them as well as having the ease of passage in and out of Woodbury as one of the residents. I can't imagine it's Morgan as not only would he not know where the pits are (let alone know of them), but if he was going to go anywhere it'd be the Prison (assuming Rick left him directions to get there off-camera).

Plus it makes sense for it to be Milton thematically speaking.

Aye. Huge seeds of doubt have been placed in Miltons mind about his boss over the last few episodes. That said, it was a pretty ballsey move for him if he did do it. He's a pretty meek guy.

[AcesandEights]

Yes, I wondered why when she left the warehouse she didn't see if she could pinch his truck, or at least knife a tyre!


To be fair, and I think the possibility occurred to most viewers, the vehicle is the first place that the Governator would probably head back to and even if she beat him there (easy to assume that she would, but still only an assumption) it still carries the risk that doing so would mean a run in with an armed Governor coming out the other entrance before you could check the vehicle for keys or finish knifing a tire.

So do you run back to the vehicle and take the chance or book it to the treeline? The Governator can't follow you like he's part bloodhound after all...oh, wait a second...:confused:

[facestabber]

Babomb. "It's the kind of place that rural kids go to party before they're old enough to go to a bar."

Yep you are definitely from the Illinois Valley. Places like that all over Lasalle, Bureau and Putnam

[MinionZombie]

Aye. Huge seeds of doubt have been placed in Miltons mind about his boss over the last few episodes. That said, it was a pretty ballsey move for him if he did do it. He's a pretty meek guy.

And the meek shall inherit the Earth! :elol:

I'm a really big fan of Milton - Dallas Roberts does a bloody good job playing him. I really hope they keep him around.

[facestabber]

And the meek shall inherit the Earth! :elol:

I'm a really big fan of Milton - Dallas Roberts does a bloody good job playing him. I really hope they keep him around.

Agreed. Milton had transformed from creepy mad scientist to a like able guy. He has humanity left in him. Very interesting that he knew Philip before he became the Gov.

But I would be thrilled if it was Morgan that torched the walkers and is now coming back to help team prison. Probably not likely but that would be great to see.

[babomb]

Babomb. "It's the kind of place that rural kids go to party before they're old enough to go to a bar."

Yep you are definitely from the Illinois Valley. Places like that all over Lasalle, Bureau and Putnam You're familiar with the area? I'm from Spring Valley, Bureau county.

[Wyldwraith]

I agree that Andrea not going after the Gov's ride makes sense,
More for the "What if he makes it out of there bitten, with nothing to lose...and an extra clip in his pocket?" would've been what I was asking myself. Every last thing about Prey could've been forgiven if the writers hadn't insisted on the Governor precognitively knowing Andrea's approach route to the prison, AND, despite just having bitterly fought for his life in what no doubt devolved into vicious close-quarters combat, being fresh and strong enough to not only capture Andrea barehanded, but DO SO WITHOUT HER SCREAMING.

I want to thank you all. Reading your thoughts allowed me to put my mental finger on the exact spot in Prey where irritation flashed over into disgusted frustration if not mild but actual anger. As someone else said, trying to hold onto a woman who feels threatened is hard enough with how cornered-animal-vicious they get, but THERE'S A REASON EVERY SINGLE blitz-attack rapist/serial killer a) uses a weapon and b) their first move is to get that gun or blade pressed against something vital so they can whisper viciously in their victim's ear while gripping them from behind "STOP STRUGGLING OR YOU'RE DEAD! SCREAM AND YOU'RE DEAD!"

This reality underscores a basic truth. Said rapist/killer, despite size/weight/strength disparities often vastly greater than Andrea Vs. Governor.... know gripping them inescapably OR silencing the female victim are at cross-purposes. Barehanded you can do ONE OR THE OTHER. That's where bringing the weapon to bear before the shocked surprise of the blitz attack comes in. What the Governor did was the first inexperienced attempt of such a rapist/killer. That one incident that leaves a record that often gets traced back to them. Andrea SHOULD have been able to scream, long and loud. Reality. Not subjective. The ONLY real-world possibility of what we saw onscreen happening that way is if a) We're talking about a battered or otherwise timid woman prone to freezing up when suddenly shocked/frightened. NOT APPLICABLE. The scene with the ninja-Walkers in the woods, where Andrea had to viscerally work the Walker's arm against the joint until it snapped, WHILE holding another Walker at bay with a foot in its gut...all while keeping her nerve as STILL MORE Walkers closed in.

So Andrea can fight like a demon and SNAP THE ARM OF A CREATURE THAT FEELS NO PAIN to free herself, then stab and stab and stab her way to freedom versus flesheating ghouls...but a battered and weary psycho who MUST chronologically be experiencing a crash after the adrenaline spike in the warehouse that saved his life....can somehow accomplish what even blitz-attack serial killers WHOSE ENTIRE LIVES REVOLVE AROUND THIS ACT wouldn't try after learning the hard way the first time that no weapon + barehanded grappling of woman = Woman screaming to high heaven 100.00% of the time?

Calling that a "minor nitpick" insults viewer intelligence frankly. If you disagree with me try the act with your spouse/girlfriend...it will be a realistic exercise since the Governor didn't damage Andrea either. TRY to immobilize, move said woman where you wish to go against her struggles, ALL WHILE SILENCING HER.

A special forces operator, or some cultist deprogrammers COULD accomplish such a feat. SOME of the time!

[sandrock74]

Playing devil's advocate, what good would screaming have done Andrea? Bring every Walker in the area straight to her? That wouldn't be a help.

As she was making her initial approach, I was wondering how she was intending to get into the prison anyway. Calling out to Rick wouldn't have been smart, due to attracting much unwanted attention from the aforementioned Walkers. Was she going to run through the first couple of fences and hope that someone would be at the inner gate to let her in? Again, she would have a throng of "admirers" hot on her heels! Quietly waving to Rick, to get his attention would probably have been the best bet. He could have people at the gate and she could make a run straight for it.

Out in the wild, noise is the enemy! Daryl's stealth-cycle seems to be the lone exception ;)

In that specific situation, Andrea may have figured keeping quiet was the way to go for her immediate well being. Having to run from the Governor while bare-knuckle brawling with Walkers really reduces your odds of survival, I'd think. In such a situation, he'd probably just shoot her and run.

Of course, once she found herself a guest in his comfortable torture room, she have regretted staying quiet...but thats one of those hindsight deals.

That's my 2 cents. Take it, leave it, pass it along, give it to a bum, whatever you like.

[AcesandEights]

Wyld, I think there does tend to be a lot of nitpicks and mountains made of assumptions in our after action bitch fests (which is fine and fun), but I can't disagree with you on the whole Governor-gone-Voorhees thing. I don't think it riles me as much as you, Wyld, but it does smack of lazy and thoughtless writing. I still had fun with the episode, but it does look like a desperate and unnecessary turn of the plot to kill time while we build up to the season finale.


If you disagree with me try the act with your spouse/girlfriend...it will be a realistic exercise since the Governor didn't damage Andrea either. TRY to immobilize, move said woman where you wish to go against her struggles, ALL WHILE SILENCING HER.
Way to set people up for failure :lol:

[facestabber]

You're familiar with the area? I'm from Spring Valley, Bureau county.

Yep Mendota. Think we established we were once enemies that battled in the trenches at Richard Nesti stadium in 94.

[Wyldwraith]

::grins at Aces::
I know, I do tend to get worked up about this stuff. It's only because I've seen fan-worshipped shows on their 10th+ season get suddenly shit-canned because the writing turned to shit. Sure, Stargate: SG-1 had about run its natural course, but SG: Atlantis died due to the writers ill-advised obsession with the unlikely Wraith-human hybrid the SG team thought it was a great idea to create. From then on it was one evil-Mary Sue plot device after another. One 2/3 of a season later, the show isn't picked up for another season.

Know this next spin-off wasn't a lot of people's cup of tea, but for its first two seasons Angel actually CRUSHED the ratings of the last four Buffy seasons. Things were going good if not great, then the writers decided "Hey, let's have the protagonists recurring adversaries give them a massive amount of their own resources in the form of their branch division of Wolfram & Hart." Because nothing says plausible like archdemons plotting the degradation and ultimate damnation of all humanity like giving THE ONLY BEING IN CREATION FATED TO STAND AGAINST THEM ON EQUAL TERMS a multinational corporation's worth of resources with which to continue the fight against them. Again, one bad decision and all of a sudden the next season mid-way through takes a sharp 180-degree turn into a rapid downward spin/escalation to a thrown-together "Series Finale." (Read: Show cancellation in the form of a final episode).

Back to more well-loved shows. The list of casualty great shows that died before their time due to a sudden degradation of writing in regards to a season-wide overarching plot device is a long one. Farscape: The chip in Crichton's head that turned into a permanent hallucination-character based on the primary antagonist...even after it was removed. Babylon 5: The inability to produce anything worthwhile after the Shadows Vs Vorlons choice-War with the less developed races.

Do I need to go on?

Great shows...and TWD is better than many of these when its firing on all cylinders...all prove that it takes ONE bad half-season to kill a show...or at least set it on a rapid-path-to-hasty series finale. TWD has, SO FAR escaped this phenomena due to its originality. I submit this to you all however...had ANY of the shows I just named faltered as much midway through their 3rd season as TWD has, they would've died then and there. How do I know? Because one and all, the scale of the bad writing calls that DID finally do them in were ALL SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER than the Season 3 problems have been.

Skip gripes about any particular episode or plot. We can pretty much all agree that the early 2nd-half of Season 3 Woodbury/Prison bouncing back and forth, in the wake of much of the same in the first half of Season 3, bored a LOT of people silly. Enough to quit watching in and of itself? Probably not. Then we got the suspicious-but-refuses-to-articulate-her-reasoning Michonne concerning Woodbury, plus Andrea turning blind-stupid during that period. Followed by the cycle of Andrea discovering the Gov had lied about something major, him spinning a line of BS, and her swallowing it...until it happens all over again.

Back at the prison we've got a mangled hack-job of Rick's mental struggle over the Lori-hallucinations.

The point, if it isn't obvious by now, is that ENOUGH of what some call "minor nitpicks" in their tolerance and devout love of the show can be like bricks in a bag around a swimmer's neck. Will one drown him? No. Two-three? Still, probably not. Four-five? Maybe long-term, but for now adrenaline will see him through. Twenty? He sinks like a stone. Despite the fact that each brick individually was little more than an annoyance.

I want TWD to break some records for longest-running horror-themed TV show. 10 seasons would be a solid benchmark for me. We WILL NOT get even SIX seasons if lessons aren't learned, and that learning visibly implemented come Season 4.

[thxleo]

::grins at Aces::
I know, I do tend to get worked up about this stuff. It's only because I've seen fan-worshipped shows on their 10th+ season get suddenly shit-canned because the writing turned to shit. Sure, Stargate: SG-1 had about run its natural course, but SG: Atlantis died due to the writers ill-advised obsession with the unlikely Wraith-human hybrid the SG team thought it was a great idea to create. From then on it was one evil-Mary Sue plot device after another. One 2/3 of a season later, the show isn't picked up for another season.

Know this next spin-off wasn't a lot of people's cup of tea, but for its first two seasons Angel actually CRUSHED the ratings of the last four Buffy seasons. Things were going good if not great, then the writers decided "Hey, let's have the protagonists recurring adversaries give them a massive amount of their own resources in the form of their branch division of Wolfram & Hart." Because nothing says plausible like archdemons plotting the degradation and ultimate damnation of all humanity like giving THE ONLY BEING IN CREATION FATED TO STAND AGAINST THEM ON EQUAL TERMS a multinational corporation's worth of resources with which to continue the fight against them. Again, one bad decision and all of a sudden the next season mid-way through takes a sharp 180-degree turn into a rapid downward spin/escalation to a thrown-together "Series Finale." (Read: Show cancellation in the form of a final episode).

Back to more well-loved shows. The list of casualty great shows that died before their time due to a sudden degradation of writing in regards to a season-wide overarching plot device is a long one. Farscape: The chip in Crichton's head that turned into a permanent hallucination-character based on the primary antagonist...even after it was removed. Babylon 5: The inability to produce anything worthwhile after the Shadows Vs Vorlons choice-War with the less developed races.

Do I need to go on?

Great shows...and TWD is better than many of these when its firing on all cylinders...all prove that it takes ONE bad half-season to kill a show...or at least set it on a rapid-path-to-hasty series finale. TWD has, SO FAR escaped this phenomena due to its originality. I submit this to you all however...had ANY of the shows I just named faltered as much midway through their 3rd season as TWD has, they would've died then and there. How do I know? Because one and all, the scale of the bad writing calls that DID finally do them in were ALL SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER than the Season 3 problems have been.

Skip gripes about any particular episode or plot. We can pretty much all agree that the early 2nd-half of Season 3 Woodbury/Prison bouncing back and forth, in the wake of much of the same in the first half of Season 3, bored a LOT of people silly. Enough to quit watching in and of itself? Probably not. Then we got the suspicious-but-refuses-to-articulate-her-reasoning Michonne concerning Woodbury, plus Andrea turning blind-stupid during that period. Followed by the cycle of Andrea discovering the Gov had lied about something major, him spinning a line of BS, and her swallowing it...until it happens all over again.

Back at the prison we've got a mangled hack-job of Rick's mental struggle over the Lori-hallucinations.

The point, if it isn't obvious by now, is that ENOUGH of what some call "minor nitpicks" in their tolerance and devout love of the show can be like bricks in a bag around a swimmer's neck. Will one drown him? No. Two-three? Still, probably not. Four-five? Maybe long-term, but for now adrenaline will see him through. Twenty? He sinks like a stone. Despite the fact that each brick individually was little more than an annoyance.

I want TWD to break some records for longest-running horror-themed TV show. 10 seasons would be a solid benchmark for me. We WILL NOT get even SIX seasons if lessons aren't learned, and that learning visibly implemented come Season 4.

I found your remarks really interesting and very accurate. I was told by someone close to the show that the departure of Glen Mazzara is viewed as a good thing for the show. He was more interested in self promotion and Twitter and was less interested in the show. When he was told he was not going to be asked back he attempted to sabotage the second half of this season and it took a major effort from everyone involved to save it. So your observations have a lot of merit.

[Harleydude666]

::grins at Aces::
I know, I do tend to get worked up about this stuff. It's only because I've seen fan-worshipped shows on their 10th+ season get suddenly shit-canned because the writing turned to shit. Sure, Stargate: SG-1 had about run its natural course, but SG: Atlantis died due to the writers ill-advised obsession with the unlikely Wraith-human hybrid the SG team thought it was a great idea to create. From then on it was one evil-Mary Sue plot device after another. One 2/3 of a season later, the show isn't picked up for another season.

Know this next spin-off wasn't a lot of people's cup of tea, but for its first two seasons Angel actually CRUSHED the ratings of the last four Buffy seasons. Things were going good if not great, then the writers decided "Hey, let's have the protagonists recurring adversaries give them a massive amount of their own resources in the form of their branch division of Wolfram & Hart." Because nothing says plausible like archdemons plotting the degradation and ultimate damnation of all humanity like giving THE ONLY BEING IN CREATION FATED TO STAND AGAINST THEM ON EQUAL TERMS a multinational corporation's worth of resources with which to continue the fight against them. Again, one bad decision and all of a sudden the next season mid-way through takes a sharp 180-degree turn into a rapid downward spin/escalation to a thrown-together "Series Finale." (Read: Show cancellation in the form of a final episode).

Back to more well-loved shows. The list of casualty great shows that died before their time due to a sudden degradation of writing in regards to a season-wide overarching plot device is a long one. Farscape: The chip in Crichton's head that turned into a permanent hallucination-character based on the primary antagonist...even after it was removed. Babylon 5: The inability to produce anything worthwhile after the Shadows Vs Vorlons choice-War with the less developed races.

Do I need to go on?

Great shows...and TWD is better than many of these when its firing on all cylinders...all prove that it takes ONE bad half-season to kill a show...or at least set it on a rapid-path-to-hasty series finale. TWD has, SO FAR escaped this phenomena due to its originality. I submit this to you all however...had ANY of the shows I just named faltered as much midway through their 3rd season as TWD has, they would've died then and there. How do I know? Because one and all, the scale of the bad writing calls that DID finally do them in were ALL SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER than the Season 3 problems have been.

Skip gripes about any particular episode or plot. We can pretty much all agree that the early 2nd-half of Season 3 Woodbury/Prison bouncing back and forth, in the wake of much of the same in the first half of Season 3, bored a LOT of people silly. Enough to quit watching in and of itself? Probably not. Then we got the suspicious-but-refuses-to-articulate-her-reasoning Michonne concerning Woodbury, plus Andrea turning blind-stupid during that period. Followed by the cycle of Andrea discovering the Gov had lied about something major, him spinning a line of BS, and her swallowing it...until it happens all over again.

Back at the prison we've got a mangled hack-job of Rick's mental struggle over the Lori-hallucinations.

The point, if it isn't obvious by now, is that ENOUGH of what some call "minor nitpicks" in their tolerance and devout love of the show can be like bricks in a bag around a swimmer's neck. Will one drown him? No. Two-three? Still, probably not. Four-five? Maybe long-term, but for now adrenaline will see him through. Twenty? He sinks like a stone. Despite the fact that each brick individually was little more than an annoyance.

I want TWD to break some records for longest-running horror-themed TV show. 10 seasons would be a solid benchmark for me. We WILL NOT get even SIX seasons if lessons aren't learned, and that learning visibly implemented come Season 4.


Disagree because look at "24" I didn't watch it in its original run. But anyway it lasted 10 seasons and it had the most uneven writing and uneven seasons and it still lasted.

[babomb]

Yep Mendota. Think we established we were once enemies that battled in the trenches at Richard Nesti stadium in 94. Oh yeah!! I was thinking that, but ZombieParanoia(or maybe it was zombiesnack?) is also familiar with the area so I thought it was him. Yeah, there's lots of old industry buildings like that around here. Spent a good portion of my youth building bunkers at them, breaking windows, and later throwing big bashes at them. There was 1 we called Jolly Farm on the backroads past rt80 between Ladd and Hollowayville. That was THE spot between freshman year and graduation. Spent many a night plastered walking the corn fields home after the cops raided the place. Did you ever come to any Valley parties? The Valley had a reputation for being crazy back then. I think 93 was the year we burnt the big "H" in St. Bedes field.

- - - Updated - - -


Playing devil's advocate, what good would screaming have done Andrea? Bring every Walker in the area straight to her? That wouldn't be a help.

As she was making her initial approach, I was wondering how she was intending to get into the prison anyway. Calling out to Rick wouldn't have been smart, due to attracting much unwanted attention from the aforementioned Walkers. Was she going to run through the first couple of fences and hope that someone would be at the inner gate to let her in? Again, she would have a throng of "admirers" hot on her heels! Quietly waving to Rick, to get his attention would probably have been the best bet. He could have people at the gate and she could make a run straight for it.

Out in the wild, noise is the enemy! Daryl's stealth-cycle seems to be the lone exception ;)

In that specific situation, Andrea may have figured keeping quiet was the way to go for her immediate well being. Having to run from the Governor while bare-knuckle brawling with Walkers really reduces your odds of survival, I'd think. In such a situation, he'd probably just shoot her and run.

Of course, once she found herself a guest in his comfortable torture room, she have regretted staying quiet...but thats one of those hindsight deals.

That's my 2 cents. Take it, leave it, pass it along, give it to a bum, whatever you like. I thought about that too. But really, she could've avoided the walkers right there. Ideally, she would've wanted to make as little noise as possible before the Gov grabbed her. But at that point she would've been thinking more about getting away from him. When you think about it, staying quiet at the prison before the gov showed up was the only well thought out thing she did in the whole episode. Besides leaving woodbury.
You'd think she'd be thinking that it was a perfect opportunity to have the Gov taken care of by team prison. She'd get saved, and have the opportunity to explain things to Rick while the Gov is right there. Dead or alive.

[facestabber]

[QUOTE=babomb;295704]Oh yeah!! I was thinking that, but ZombieParanoia(or maybe it was zombiesnack?) is also familiar with the area so I thought it was him. Yeah, there's lots of old industry buildings like that around here. Spent a good portion of my youth building bunkers at them, breaking windows, and later throwing big bashes at them. There was 1 we called Jolly Farm on the backroads past rt80 between Ladd and Hollowayville. That was THE spot between freshman year and graduation. Spent many a night plastered walking the corn fields home after the cops raided the place. Did you ever come to any Valley parties? The Valley had a reputation for being crazy back then. I think 93 was the year we burnt the big "H" in St. Bedes field.

I remember the 'H' incident. We had plans to burn an 'M' at your house till our coaches caught wind of it. I went to one house party in SV when I was chasing a girl from there. Mendota had their version of drinking spots. Drinkers road was by meridian rd which divides bureau and Lasalle. Never had problems with cops there. Good times

I holding out hope that TWD will go out with a bang like last year. I'm keeping the faith though skeptical.

[Andy]

Playing devil's advocate, what good would screaming have done Andrea? Bring every Walker in the area straight to her? That wouldn't be a help.

As she was making her initial approach, I was wondering how she was intending to get into the prison anyway. Calling out to Rick wouldn't have been smart, due to attracting much unwanted attention from the aforementioned Walkers. Was she going to run through the first couple of fences and hope that someone would be at the inner gate to let her in? Again, she would have a throng of "admirers" hot on her heels! Quietly waving to Rick, to get his attention would probably have been the best bet. He could have people at the gate and she could make a run straight for it.

Out in the wild, noise is the enemy! Daryl's stealth-cycle seems to be the lone exception ;)

In that specific situation, Andrea may have figured keeping quiet was the way to go for her immediate well being. Having to run from the Governor while bare-knuckle brawling with Walkers really reduces your odds of survival, I'd think. In such a situation, he'd probably just shoot her and run.

Of course, once she found herself a guest in his comfortable torture room, she have regretted staying quiet...but thats one of those hindsight deals.

That's my 2 cents. Take it, leave it, pass it along, give it to a bum, whatever you like.

Actually i think the oppisite, as soon as the governor grabbed her she should have screamed as loud as she could. Not only would rick have heard and mounted a rescue but as you said, it would have drawn in dozens of walkers.. the governor would never have been able to keep her pinned down and fend them off.

Given what she now knows about the governor after seeing his torture chamber and narrowly escaping him at the warehouse, would you rather take your chances with walkers or let him pin you do what he wants?

[MinionZombie]

I found your remarks really interesting and very accurate. I was told by someone close to the show that the departure of Glen Mazzara is viewed as a good thing for the show. He was more interested in self promotion and Twitter and was less interested in the show. When he was told he was not going to be asked back he attempted to sabotage the second half of this season and it took a major effort from everyone involved to save it.

:stunned::eek::rockbrow::eek::stunned:


Disagree because look at "24" I didn't watch it in its original run. But anyway it lasted 10 seasons and it had the most uneven writing and uneven seasons and it still lasted.

Actually it was eight seasons, but yeah, season six was pretty lame and got quite ridiculous - I've never seen a man shave off a huge beard and tame a lion's mane of wild hair so quickly before! :lol: Season 7 and particularly 8 brought things back on track, but they still couldn't be as awesome as season 5 ... season 3 was a bit iffy, but not as dodgy the second time around (while season 2 wasn't as good the second time around) ... ... I still maintain that some folks complaining about minor elements of the show are over-doing it a bit ... ... and lest anyone completely misunderstand me, I'm not saying the show doesn't have some faults week-to-week, but keeping them in context is very important, not to mention fair.

Did The Governor's appearance at the end make enough sense? No it did not, and I do hope for better mechanics in the writing (and direction - the guy doing this episode was a newcomer) come season 4 in regards to those elements, but at the same time - from my personal perspective - getting delving so far into those relatively minor flaws that they become big deals would, in my view, just utterly ruin the enjoyment of the show. There's an awful lot of laser focus on small flaws and not an awful lot of talk about all the things they're getting right episode-to-episode, season-to-season, and generally as a show ... so that approach to viewership baffles me, but well, there we are.

I've pointed out things that I didn't like, for example in the staging of certain scenes, or in editing - e.g. the cheeky teleporting zombies of 3x04 (and yet that episode was an incredible 43 minutes of television, and a landmark moment in TWD history), or the missing scenes from 3x05 because the script was too long, thus making the episode less-satisfying than it should have been (and yet it was still very satisfying telly) ... has the pace a little off at times in recent weeks? Yes, but only up to a point. I'd hate to see the show just be a bunch of braindead MTV-style running and gunning - I'm glad to hear from Gale Anne Hurd that season 4, under Gimple's stewardship, will be taking on a slightly more Darabont flavour (akin to 3x12 "Clear" - which got rave reviews here on HPOTD) ... and yet that's not to say that I've not enjoyed season 3, I really, really have, but I'm glad they're readjusting as they go and not just sticking to a rigid path and making increasingly poorer television as a result (e.g. Dexter).

The showmakers have show repeatedly that they listen to the fans, and what's more, they question themselves. They pay attention to what they're doing and they look to mix things up - Hurd has also mentioned how season 4 will place more focus on the danger of the walkers again as they were beginning to feel that, in season 3, the walkers were becoming too manageable. That sort of statement clearly shows how they're dedicated to improving what they're producing, and correcting the course gently as they go.

Moving on...

Regarding The Governor's strength, I think writing according to adrenaline levels is a bit restrictive - the scene could have been written better, yes, but that's going a smidge too far in a show where the dead can walk about and eat people (and no, that isn't an excuse for "poor writing" or whatever you fancy - as I've said many times in the past months, small flaws, in my estimation, while taken seriously, should also be viewed against the grand scale of the complete show). Point made, duly noted, there's no need to flog a dead horse.

I would point out one important element - Andrea's strength - she has been running and hiding for hours - she was on-foot from Woodbury - The Governor was sitting pretty in his 4x4, so the only burst of energy he's actually had are his couple of encounters with walkers inside the abandoned factory. He'd then just drive to the Prison and wait for Andrea to catch up ... but, yes, you would then wonder about the engine noise (as previously established) and quite rightly how would he know at what point would she turn up ... but to be fair, she's going to go for the main entrance (that was smashed open). She knows of no other ways in, so you've already narrowed down the possible area where she might turn up - plus Andrea knows that they're keeping watch over that area - she wants them to see her coming. The Governor would lie in wait, sneak up on her, and blammo ... even if The Governor is a bit tired, he's still a great big dude who hasn't had to run for miles in the sun, unlike Andrea - she was clearly physically exhausted when she rocked up near the gates, she could barely raise her arm, let alone call out in her breathless state.

The staging of the scene and the writing of the scene could be improved with small corrections, but equally it's unfair to ascribe incredibly in-depth "but what about?" real-world logic to a television show or movie. There are some cheats that have to be made - they've been happening since the beginning of film - and The Walking Dead is insanely good in comparison to many shows out there. Cut it the appropriate amount of slack - keep things in context of the whole. Concerns justifiably lodged, but what's the need to painstakingly rake over them? Surely that just ruins the viewing experience of a good show - and it is a good show. We've been spoiled rotten by what they've given us, and yes, we all want the show to be the best it can be, but patience is required for course corrections to kick in. There's so much to think about - in such a confined production schedule - that you can't assess these things from a writer/producer/director/actor's point of view until months later.

Lazy writing? Certainly not. Imperfect writing? Sure - but is there such a thing as "perfect" writing anyway? Just think about all the things they have got right with the show. Context is so important.

An example of another show at the moment - The Following.

That show has piss-weak writing, and is populated by the most idiotic characters I've ever witnessed - the FBI in the show are a bunch of total dimwits - "shock twists" amount to nothing more than 'pick a random guest actor to be a cult member' in a manner that feels akin to throwing slices of salami at a wall of faces and seeing which one sticks. There's a bizarre lack of tension, suspense, or pace, and the only actual good thing about the show is Kevin Bacon.

That's a terribly and lazily written show - and it's been renewed for a second season.

The Walking Dead is lightyears ahead of that, and it's ahead of many other shows in terms of the writing and direction and acting and so on. It's obviously not going to be consistently brilliant - let alone majestically perfect - but what we're getting is just so good. 3x04 alone blew entire seasons of other shows out of the water ... Dexter has been crashing and burning for a couple of seasons now (season 6 was pish, and season 7 was better, but had so many under-written and boring side plots that you had to wonder what on earth were they thinking in the writer's room) ... Californication, while still fun, seems to be treading water and resorting to surface-skim style writing that favours silly sexual shock moments over depth (although to be fair there is depth here and there throughout) ... Vegas, a new show, was so dull and predictable, and soft-serve that I gave up entirely two episodes in.

Point being - see the wood in spite of the trees. Opinions are opinions and as justified as anyone elses - I am not denegrating anyone's right to an opinion, or their opinions specifically (just to be absolutely clear) - what I'm talking about is the sheer focus (even, at times, vitriolic attention) over flaws and infractions that are relatively small and confined when viewed against the entire production. Moderation is always the key.

[babomb]

I remember the 'H' incident. We had plans to burn an 'M' at your house till our coaches caught wind of it. I went to one house party in SV when I was chasing a girl from there. Mendota had their version of drinking spots. Drinkers road was by meridian rd which divides bureau and Lasalle. Never had problems with cops there. Good times

I holding out hope that TWD will go out with a bang like last year. I'm keeping the faith though skeptical. If you remember, Hall and St. Bede had a big rivalry for years that resulted in us not being allowed to play each other, for episodes just like the "H" thing. We got in alot of trouble for that. I was an underclassmen at the time and if it wasn't for the fact that I was with varsity players that were essential to the teams success, it woulda been alot worse.

Judging by the name of the season finale, I think it will definitely be a good episode.
I was talking about this with a cousin of mine yesterday, and it seems that the Andrea annoyance even extends to the average viewer.
When you consider past seasons, we don't have a real powerful antagonist like Bernthal this season for everyone to hate. Don't get me wrong, the gov is a great character himself, and the actor plays him exceptionally well. You can't really find fault in Morrisey's performance, and he does make you hate him like you hated Shane. It's the writing surrounding the way his situation plays out that's to blame for any fault with the characters portrayal. We're made to like him a little, but hate him alot. Which is similar to Shane's situation. But we know from the jump that the governer is the bad guy, he's on the oppositions side. With Shane, we wanted to like him and we wanted him to be a well integrated member of the group, we saw his value to the group. But he made us hate him just as much as we wanted to like him. That dynamic just isn't possible with the gov, no matter how ambiguous his intentions seemed or how well the actor plays him.
Most other characters are played very well and there's no real fault in the actors performances. Lincoln plays Rick exceptionally well. But we'll always be on his side so the same character dynamic doesn't apply. And they've kind of played down the drama this season and mixed in too much action. We need both, but there has to be the right mix and the writers haven't quite gotten it right yet. So we haven't been allowed to see and experience Rick's plight to the extent that we need to in order to make Lincolns performance stand out like it could.
But the way Shane made you hate him and look forward to his demise is something that's missing from this season. So I think people are projecting a similar aspect onto Andrea this season. And I think it's somewhat intended to be that way. But the actress playing her is not capable of the same performance Bernthal gave, and the writing behind the portrayal of the character is severely flawed in comparison.
So the Andrea hate is something that's intended in the writing to some extent. But it's magnified by lazy writing, and the fact that Holden isn't quite up to the task.

Another aspect, and this is something I've thought for quite awhile but it seems more pronounced this season. Maybe spreading out the role of director across such a diverse group of people isn't the right approach for this series. Too many chefs spoil the soup...
Because in all 3 seasons there's this aspect where some episodes have everything we want and expect, and these seem to be our favorite episodes. The pilot episode, which was just incredible for more reasons than simply being the pilot episode. Then the season 3 premiere, and most recently "Clear". These episodes stand out from the rest because they seem to have that right mix of all the ingredients we really want from the series. And it escalates our expectations for the next episodes. But then they change the director, and the spell is broken. And we're let down.
This gives the series an inconsistent feel from episode to episode. Sometimes it feels like what TWD was always meant to be. Other times it feels like a straight action series, other times it feels like a soap opera.

[shootemindehead]

There's only been one poor season of 'Dexter' and that was season 2, but the Doakes storyline of that year was still good. Frankly, I believe it's one of the better TV shows out there and consistantly entertaining, although it really should be winding down now.

Considering the utter dross that gets greenlit for American TV, it's somewhat a reluctant excercise to criticise 'The Walking Dead', but when it's badly written (and, let's be honest, it's had a history of bad writing), then it should be called out. Some of the writing has been awful, to say the least, but when it's good, it's great. There just seems to be some problems holding on to the "greatness".

Also, it's a completely redundant arguement, IMHO, to criticise criticism with "...in a show where the dead can walk about and eat people". That's the show's basic premise and really shouldn't be set against other peoples issues within. Not having a go at you Min, but this argument gets trotted out in "zombie talk" all the time and it's a bit of a bug bear to me. One can make a show about a fantastic premise and still remain with the realms of reality with everything else.

In saying all that and with knowing my own problems with the series, I still think it's one of the best TV shows on at present. But I KNOW I give it a pass, because it's about zombies. But, there has been consistant issues with the writing on the program and there really needs to be a tighten up in that area. This season, so far has been good, but there is a definite problem with the pacing of the latter half. Compared to the blistering and completely focused line in episodes 1-7, 8- have been relatively weak in comparison, apart from a couple of outstanding ones, like 'Clear'. The last episode and the one before have been examples of meh, TBH, and seem sort of confused and a kind of mistep, which happens when writers "make it up as they go along". With only 2 more episodes coming up, time is runing out for a neat(ish) wrap up.

Criticism of the series is not just confined to lovers of the genre, like us on here though. Many of my friends, who watch the show have expressed a number of WTF's on several occasions at the programs writing and direction. A couple have stopped watching altogether, citing "it's getting silly and boring" as a reason. While that may sound trite, I classed their reasoning is legit when they elaborated. Basically, they felt that there was no real danger any more and charcters were starting to act a bit silly. The zombies have been pushed TOO far into the background and the central positioning of an unfocused "pissing contest" (woodbury v prison) struck them as unconvincing. In short, they just didn't know what they were fighting over. I couldn't answer them, other than the govenor is mad.

'The Walking Dead' has the potential to a truly brilliant and epic TV series, but all too often, the dodgy writing lets it down. It's inconsistant and to an audience that's not invested in the central premise (the zombie apocalypse) that can be the spur for tuning out - and that's the vast bulk of the audience.

Hopefully, AMC can get its act together, regarding backroom brawls and spats and perhaps a more consistant writing team can be established. I think this would go a long way to tightening 'The Walking Dead' into a better show.

[Wyldwraith]

@Minion:
I get what you're saying, I truly do. Yet I feel justified in coming down on "Prey" so hard because to me it committed the unforgivable sin. The events therein set the NEXT episode up to be crap, before that next episode ever had a fair chance. You ask we see the wood for the trees, and that's exactly what I'm trying to do when I slam it on the basis that the Governor's ridiculously improbable capture of Andrea was crafted, with childish transparency, for the single purpose of stretching out conversation/drama over the Governor's ultimatum. IN SO DOING, it essentially "burns up" an episode for nothing, when there's so much larger a season-long conflict that's being made to wait in the wings, and ultimately and ARTIFICIALLY being turned into the formulaic cliffhanger they seem to insist the end of a TWD season can't go without.

If these aren't large issues, you will honestly have to forgive me, but I must be incapable of identifying what is and is not intended to be the primary plotline. The Governor seeking revenge against Michonne is of paramount importance ONLY when viewed from the single-character-view scale of through the Governor's eyes. Whereas the Governor's ongoing campaign to exterminate with prejudice all human beings he becomes aware of that aren't either a) Psychotics or amoral opportunists willing to join his merry band of mass murderers, or b) The weak and the gullible that can be used to serve his ends as expendable resources, is THE plot element around which all of Season 3 orbits.

The reasoning I'm applying is if that is indeed the central conflict driving the story, then any elements which diminish the tension, unbalance the pacing, or reduce the edge-of-your-seat-level interest in how it's going to play out are things I consider to be completely detrimental to the overall story. Ultimately, there's a simple benchmark *I* use to separate nitpicks from significant flaws. I do not consider my benchmark to be authoritative...it's simply how I judge the content I digest. If, when looking at a recently-arrived plot-development, my mind immediately begins conjuring NUMEROUS alternative outcomes that *I* think would have served the story's obvious intended direction, INSTEAD or as OPPOSED TO being caught up in the moment and going "Whoa, now how is such and such going to deal with that, or how will so-and-so get out of that" then...if said plot development ALSO qualifies as a plot-wide-effecting element as I described above, *I* consider it significant and flawed.

My interest is not in generating four-page dissertations on why Ninja Zombies 1-7 in Episodes X,Y and Z annoy me, but rather in pointing out, relatively soon after the first airing of the new episode, events I believe have harmed the quality of the Season as a whole.

Accepting for the sake of argument this is what I believe and a great deal of the basis upon which I react, do you honestly believe my focus is merely to shout "Boooooo" whenever and wherever possible, at any misstep? My word of honor it's not. AMC has an ESTABLISHED habit of shit-canning, or at least drastically cutting the $$ for anything they're offering that takes ONE Season-long significant ratings dip. So, at ALL TIMES, TWD is FAR more vulnerable to going away and not coming back than nearly all of us would like to believe. So what tends to get my motor running and my pet peeve engine firing on all cylinders are the "easy plays that get botched"...not the plot elements that are more subjective and more inclined toward being a matter of individual taste.

When something happens in this show that a) Was a "Grr, I can't believe they went there" moment, b) Affects the scope/outcome of half the season's plot or more, and c) Is likely to be judged more harshly by the wider non-zombie-apocalypse fanatic fan audience that WE AREN'T, it irritates the fuck out of me because I see it as one minute closer to Midnight on the Armageddon Clock of Show Cancellation. TWD is the LAST TV show I still give a damn about. So maybe I takes things with a bit more heat and vitriol expressed than I should...but I express myself from a place of concern as much as just a fan offering a personal opinion.

My .02, though in this economy prolly not worth that much.

[MinionZombie]

@Wyld:

it irritates the fuck out of me because I see it as one minute closer to Midnight on the Armageddon Clock of Show Cancellation.

It's this kind of doom-laden chit-chat that I'm trying to address. :p

The staging of The Governor grabbing Andrea is messy/could be improved, but I don't find that to be a major issue on the grand scale. To me that is a minor flaw overall.

What I would find to be a major flaw is, for example, in season 6 of Dexter - the entire religious angle to the plot. It was boring and ultimately rather pointless as it didn't go anywhere ... in fact, that's often a problem with some seasons of Dexter, the poor bastard ends up pretty much where he started ... or in season 7 of Dexter, entire subplots were deathly dull or entirely "so ruddy what?" ... everything involving Quinn and the stripper Katja was pretty lame, boring, and didn't have a lot of juice to it ... same goes for Batista's subplot - boring as shit and devoid of any tension or intrigue ... entire characters were left swinging in the breeze with naff all to do. To me that is a major problem, that is "bad/lazy writing".

Another example of what I would consider to be "lazy writing" is, in the case of 24 (one of my favourite shows), situations like - "There's a mole in CTU!" - and I'm like "Oh aye? AGAIN? Like last season. And the one before that. And the one before that?" ... or "Imprisoned bad guy who has necessary information is left alone in a room with a weapon and the person they wronged ... then the person they wronged KILLS the bad guy, thus blocking Jack from need-to-know information" ... or "Jack has a woman in his life. She dies." or ... I could go on. :p

I don't believe or feel that The Walking Dead exhibits anything like that in its writing, and even still as I said above, I was (and am) a huge fan of 24, regardless of its increased reliance on its own established cliches and plot devices that were originally fresh and shocking for the series itself.

Certain issues I've raised along the way as part of a healthy diet of TWD response are, even added together, a series of "do better next time" / "must try harder in this regard" moments that will inevitably occur - in American school parlance, "check minus" moments. You can't keep every single plate spinning perfectly, and the odd one might fall down - but you notice it eventually and either speed it up again or replace it with a new one.

Remember the concern of some of the zombies in season one? The too-fast gait of some of the performers, or the fact that they could climb fences in 1x02 (I still get irked by that moment - but at the same time it's a mere few seconds of screentime, and I would have directed/written the scene slightly differently to fix that minor flaw, but there's so much that's right about that episode that context and perspective are important to maintain). We don't see fast shamblers or fence-jumpers anymore - the makers noticed that area for improvement, and they did so.

2x01 through 2x07 were criticised for being too slow - again, this was recognised and they increased the storytelling pace of the show, and with a budget increase they were able to have more paints and brushes to play with, so again another issue was addressed.

I guess why I'm a tad insistent in representing a counter-weight is, in addition to offering balance from another perspective, out of fellow-fan concern - as I've said earlier in the thread, to me at least, getting so concerned over some of these issues (see above quote :D) would - for me - ruin the experience unnecessarily and magnify faults. I would like to see folks such as Wyld pick out the stuff they like with equal vigour. :)

Regarding multiple directors for a TV series (babomb) - that's not at all uncommon. Indeed one of the better episodes of season 7 of Dexter was directed by Ernest Dickerson (3x01, 3x16), and Seith Mann (I forget which episode he did just off the top of my head) recently directed an episode of Californication. As I'm on the subject, same goes for writing, multiple writers - under the stewardship of a head (Darabont, Mazzara, now Gimple) bash out the thrust and arcs of the season, and then individuals are assigned (an) individual episode(s) to write. As far as bringing the actors in to talk to them about their characters and where they see their characters going, I'm not sure how common that is outside of AMC (I've heard of it happening on Mad Men and Breaking Bad in different ways), but I assume that on many shows it's quite a divorced process. I for one think it has helped lead to stronger plots and character development.

Perfection is impossible. Near perfection is crafted gradually over time as actor/writer/director/producer's focus and attention shifts and roams across the woodland as a whole. :cool:

[babomb]

It's this kind of doom-laden chit-chat that I'm trying to address. :p

The staging of The Governor grabbing Andrea is messy/could be improved, but I don't find that to be a major issue on the grand scale. To me that is a minor flaw overall. It's a minor flaw in and of itself. But when you notice that these minor flaws are occurring with much more frequency, that's when it become a cause for concern.



Remember the concern of some of the zombies in season one? The too-fast gait of some of the performers, or the fact that they could climb fences in 1x02 (I still get irked by that moment - but at the same time it's a mere few seconds of screentime, and I would have directed/written the scene slightly differently to fix that minor flaw, but there's so much that's right about that episode that context and perspective are important to maintain). We don't see fast shamblers or fence-jumpers anymore - the makers noticed that area for improvement, and they did so. That may or may not be the case though. Because Kirkman said in an interview that his zombies are based on Romeros zombies. But he also believes that some zombies would move faster than others. Based on how long they've actually been undead, and the extent of the injuries they sustained. As the situation progresses, they become slower and less able because they're decaying.
So maybe they noticed that area needed improvement, but maybe they're just following Kirkmans vision and since we're a year or more into the outbreak we don't see fast shamblers and more able walkers because they've decayed and don't have those abilities anymore.
Kirkman also stated at the start of season 3 that since we are so far into the situation now, the zombies have become more decrepid and wasted away so they're slower, skinnier, and more disgusting looking. Which is obviously the case. Since they don't look like they did in season 1 and 2. And the leap from season 2 to 3 is the first time in the series that any significant time has passed.



Regarding multiple directors for a TV series (babomb) - that's not at all uncommon. Indeed one of the better episodes of season 7 of Dexter was directed by Ernest Dickerson (3x01, 3x16), and Seith Mann (I forget which episode he did just off the top of my head) recently directed an episode of Californication. As I'm on the subject, same goes for writing, multiple writers - under the stewardship of a head (Darabont, Mazzara, now Gimple) bash out the thrust and arcs of the season, and then individuals are assigned (an) individual episode(s) to write. As far as bringing the actors in to talk to them about their characters and where they see their characters going, I'm not sure how common that is outside of AMC (I've heard of it happening on Mad Men and Breaking Bad in different ways), but I assume that on many shows it's quite a divorced process. I for one think it has helped lead to stronger plots and character development.

Perfection is impossible. Near perfection is crafted gradually over time as actor/writer/director/producer's focus and attention shifts and roams across the woodland as a whole. :cool: Yeah, I do understand that multiple directors is a common thing. My thought is that maybe it isn't the right approach for this series. Because it does seem that certain episodes really shine, and it's a definite let-down when the next 3 or 4 episodes are mediocre. It seems that this whole series should have the mood and feel that we got from the pilot. I'm not saying that every episode should be as epic as that, or even as good as Clear. But i think those episodes embody what we as fans of the genre as a whole, and the series itself, really want from the show in general.
And there seems to be a lack of continuity in regard to those elements that make those episodes shine, from episode to episode.
Nobody is expecting perfection. It would just be nice if there was a little more continuity in quality, from episode to episode and season to season.

One thing that's telling about this season is if you think back to the weekly discussions from season 2. We had heated debates about the actual events that took place. About Shane shooting otis, about Dale taking the guns, about what they should do with Randall, about herschel wanting them to leave. But look at the discussions we have this season. They seem to be mostly about the writing, and the decisions made regarding how the show plays out and feels to us as viewers. So what happened? Did we change? or did the show change?
Even if you're not one of those that takes part in the bitching, you have to notice how much less intense the discussions here on the board have become for each episode. Threads go for 4-6 pages per week. Last season they sometimes got to 15 pages. And when was the last time neil or Andy had to warn us about getting personal with each other over our positions on a characters actions? That happened multiple times last season.
The show used to cause people to talk about personal issues in their lives to illustrate points regarding their opinions on characters actions or decisions. We used to get animated about things.
Something has definitely changed, just judging by the passion and intensity seen here in the episode threads. That has to mean something...

[Wyldwraith]

I was going to fire back with about a solid page @Minion,
But you pretty much precognitively and telepathically read my mind down to the smallest nuance on the issues at hand babomb. Perhaps you have Governor blood in you :P
I will say this though, go back to the FIRST HALF of Season 3. THAT is where you'll find my picking out the things I like with equal ardor to the things I dislike. Why did that disappear? The Woodbury to Prison flash-back-and-forths where not much of anything happened for a couple episodes at a time. THEN, when things fired up again and Team Prison busted in to get their people back, and Michonne skull-fucked the Governor, I leaned forward towards the edge of my seat. And before you say I'm just looking for a straight diet of action, it was NOT the ACTUAL raid that piqued my interest..but the implications for the wider conflict coming to a head, and the obvious interpersonal "What should we do? different points of view being expressed as the conflict heated up.

Then what did they give us for about six straight episodes? The Governor preening in Woodbury and B.Sing Andrea every 2 minutes....Glenn and Maggie's "we're fighting, but really not cuz we're so hurt and traumatized, but yea we are" and Rick's HORRIBLE HORRIBLE WILDLY INCONSISTENT lunatic behavior not even compelling after the first phonecall at all. Then MORE Woodbury dastardliness, which is basically just foreshadowing...for a conflict that gets counterintuitively less and less heated all the time BECAUSE THE WRITERS HAVE LET IT GET STALE.

Want viewers to CARE about a conflict between Team Prison and Woodbury? Then there has to BE conflict. NOT flashes back and forth to each side talking, talking, talking to their own side, preaching to the choir yet not SAYING ANYTHING OF MEANING. Then, when the Governor FINALLY makes his opening overt move with his retribution-raid....and it comes off with all the warts and boils of 1x02 all over again...only insert stupid human behavior (defender and attacker alike) as opposed to maddening zombie flaws.

Quite honestly, the back 9 of Season 3 has, to date, with the solitary exceptions of the premiere and Clear, basically been a strung-together series of episodes with the poor quality of the truly few and out of place failures very rare in Seasons 1 & 2.

Minion, I AM looking at the show from the scale of Episode 1 looking towards the season finale...and barring a finale that at this point would absolutely poleaxe me with surprise if it rose to 70% Clear quality, my overall assessment of this half season is going to be, in a nutshell:

"The premiere was good, Clear was excellent, there were a few bits and pieces in a few other episodes I liked, but on the whole this half-season was to me as if someone leading the writers had said "I wonder what Season 3.5 would look like if 90% of the episodes were as shitty or shittier than the few failures of the previous Seasons?""

We disagree on the level of quality-loss this Season...but the fact that our debate is orbiting a) Quite isolated gems in a sea of mediocrity or downright melodramatic crap, or b) "TWD 3.5 isn't NEARLY as shitty as shows X.Y and Zs worst seasons" IS the problem in emblamatic form for me.

That's why babomb's words about where did the fascinating/stimulating/heated debates of Season 1 & 2 go resonate so strongly with me.

Here is my prophecy, and it will come true. 5 years from now...when people have the DVD Seasons 1-X of TWD on their shelf, Season 3 will be Dust Bunny Central. MAYBE pulled down, popped in and briefly scanned to settle an argument about a misremembered detail of plot that affects something in a later season, but NOT re-watched for the intrinsic enjoyment of watching TWD.

My most condemning statement? I have caught precisely TWO episodes this Season-Half at 9pm when they air. ONCE IN AWHILE I'll care enough to DVR the upcoming episode, but most of the time I'll just rely on catching one of the early-AM repeats early Monday morning.

THAT UPSETS ME! I missed ONE Season 1-2 9pm showing, due to severe stomach flu. But even in that state I was adamant about setting it to record 7hrs early before I passed back out. I continued to feel that way through the first half of this Season. Then everything mentioned above began happening...and a chunk of my enthusiasm I HOPE only is in a coma. Because the alternative is that its died, and that would sadden me.

That's where we differ so greatly. You see a Season-half where they've gotten 90% of it right and 10% minor flaws. I see a season-half where they've gotten 90% of it wrong and 10% gems. I don't know why it keeps even pissing me off from episode to episode, when logically by now I should know there's a 90% chance I'm going to end my viewing experience with a "Meh"...at best. I want the sparkling tension and sick knot in the gut emotional reactions the first 2 seasons evoked back. Maybe I'm angry as a sort of shield against the upset, I dunno. All I DO know is that I mean it with all my heart when I say I think 90% of this season-half is one notch above daytime soaps....

That grieves me Minion. Is this a foretaste of Seasons 4 and 5? God I hope not. I just don't seem to have your ability to look past the dull, the improbably contrived and the poorly executed and still see the raging phenomena TWD began as, that you obviously still do. The TRAGEDY is I WISH I saw it as you do.

Hmm, looks like I wrote that page anyways. Sorry all. Just frustrated and a bit down in the mouth over this. I'll just stop posting until the feeling passes...and God I hope they show something that helps that along.

Peace.

[facestabber]

Come home from work and some seriously entertaining thoughts. I dont have much to contribute at the moment but is one of the problems having such a large main cast? How deep can we get with the characters with so many? Dawn of the Dead isolated us with 4 and allowed us fans to become near and dear with Fran, Peter, Roger and Flyboy. I was excited to get more Michonne after "clear" and was left with two episodes of almost zero Michonne. Oh well. Great reading.

[ProfessorChaos]

Lazy writing? Certainly not. Imperfect writing? Sure - but is there such a thing as "perfect" writing anyway?

ahem:

F1HNuAE9WdU

http://t.qkme.me/6nne.jpg

;)

[babomb]

Come home from work and some seriously entertaining thoughts. I dont have much to contribute at the moment but is one of the problems having such a large main cast? How deep can we get with the characters with so many? Dawn of the Dead isolated us with 4 and allowed us fans to become near and dear with Fran, Peter, Roger and Flyboy. I was excited to get more Michonne after "clear" and was left with two episodes of almost zero Michonne. Oh well. Great reading. Maybe. But it seems like lately life in the prison is pretty dull. People standing around kicking rocks. You got Beth singing and feeding the baby, Glen and Maggie fighting and screwing, alot of nothing. People standing around bitching about Merle.
But then we got Andrea, the gov, and a little bit of Milton here and there. And they don't even seem to be doing much.

It's been awhile since I read volume 3 of the books, but i don't remember prison life being this dull.

Clear was very reminiscent of 18 Miles Out. I enjoyed both alot. Not sure if they were directed by the same person. I agree though, we got more Michonne and it was nice. Carl had more of a role than usual. I think the switching back and forth between the prison and woodbury is one reason for the continuity break. The 2 places have a stark contrast. That's something that's kind of tricky. I can see where that would be difficult to pull off right. That's something I can easily overlook though.
The thing is that it's alot easier to overlook inconsistencies and mediocre writing when there is still much substance to be had. Take Clear for example. People pointed out some of its problems, Michonne teleporting, the walkers on the car when they got stuck. But those are actually nitpicks, andnobody focused so much on those things because the episode as a whole was very good.

[shootemindehead]

It would have been much better if the writers had simply followed the woobury arc that was in the comics. Having Andrea shagging the gov was a stupid move, as it guaranteed the split story to follow her and her, frankly, insipid storyline. I seem to recall from the comic that there wasn't actually that much time spent in Woodbury. Not in the same fashion that's been shown on the TV show. Woodbury just isn't all that interesting. I think the writers have embarked on this Woodbury thing in a fairly blind manner and now they just don't really know where they're going with it.

I'm hoping the final two episodes will prove me wrong and we can all just shut up moaning for a year.

:D

[babomb]

It would have been much better if the writers had simply followed the woobury arc that was in the comics. Having Andrea shagging the gov was a stupid move, as it guaranteed the split story to follow her and her, frankly, insipid storyline. I seem to recall from the comic that there wasn't actually that much time spent in Woodbury. Not in the same fashion that's been shown on the TV show. Woodbury just isn't all that interesting. I think the writers have embarked on this Woodbury thing in a fairly blind manner and now they just don't really know where they're going with it.

I'm hoping the final two episodes will prove me wrong and we can all just shut up moaning for a year.

:D Agreed!!

[kidgloves]

I think we're seeing why Mazzara got the bullet now. I like him as a person but it now seems to me that all the rumours and conspiracy theories are just that. He couldn't cut it as showrunner on THIS show.
The 2nd half of this season has been a mess really with a few standout single episodes. Prey was not a good episode at all. Some of the characters behaviours were bizarre to say the least. Tyreese turning suddenly on Allen. WTF. It was badly acted, directed AND written. There is definately something wrong with the execution of the show in the 2nd half. Someone mentioned about multiple directors being an issue. I agree but as mentioned its normal for tv as the director is really just a person you hire to shoot your episode and has very little input in the creative process. Thank god Nicotero is on set every day as I think this show would be a real disaster without him to advise the incoming staff of the situation ie zombie behaviour, tone etc. While were on directors, where the hell is Michelle Maclaren? She directed for seasons 1 & 2 but is nowhere to be seen this season. I know she was slated to direct a couple of episodes for Game of Thrones but i'd like to see her brought back to TWD and used like Dickerson is. Make it so AMC.

[MinionZombie]

One thing that's telling about this season is if you think back to the weekly discussions from season 2. We had heated debates about the actual events that took place. About Shane shooting otis, about Dale taking the guns, about what they should do with Randall, about herschel wanting them to leave. But look at the discussions we have this season.

Because you're stealing the thread's limelight with complaints over minor flaws! :D:sneaky::D

I think we've all allowed the threads to slide mostly into reviews, rather than discussion of ideas, and I'm going to do my bit to rectify that.

Anyway...

I'm done going over all that - clearly we've got two very different opinions, or also the recognised flaws that we do agree upon have different strengths over the whole show to each of us, but anyway, there's no point raking over these coals any longer. :)

So, let's delve into some serious chat - some topic starters:

1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view?

2) If you were a Woodbury resident - untrained in weapons, wrapped in cotton wool of old-world luxury, and under the spell of The Governor's vision - how do you think you'd react to the invasion by Team Prison, and the tooling-up for war with an "enemy" that you don't know, have probably not even seen, and essentially know little/nothing about?

3) If you were in Tyreese & Sasha's position when they were taken to the walker pits, what would your reaction have been?

4) If you found yourself bound to a torture chair in The Governor's dungeon, what would you do to try and facilitate your escape?

5) As a member of Team Prison, would you repair the outer fences or leave them open with the walkers roaming about the field at the front?

6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear (;)) and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle?

Let's make this fun - indulge your fantasy mindset. :)

...

Oh, and here's an interview with Laurie Holden:
http://dailydead.com/exclusive-interview-with-the-walking-deads-laurie-holden/

[Wyldwraith]

Know I said I was done posting, but one small post-fragment,
Simple question. Minion: Do you really believe it's our mindset and priorities that have so changed the conversations here, or is it a result of the show's external influence, or something in-between? Don't have to justify your answer, don't even have to answer at all obviously, but I AM curious.

[MinionZombie]

Do you really believe it's our mindset and priorities that have so changed the conversations here, or is it a result of the show's external influence, or something in-between?

Wyld - a bit of both, but more biased towards all of us allowing the threads to get a bit lazy, by which I mean all of us focusing more on posting whether you liked it or not (and what you liked or disliked) rather than delving into the ideas of the episode as well. I don't think it's for want of topics - I quickly drummed up six topics regarding 3x14 in my previous post for further discussion.

So far the back half hasn't been as good as the front-half, but they're still getting more than enough right in the grand scheme of things. Room for improvement/course correction - yes - but I've got faith and trust in the showmakers, and no show grows and expands without teething troubles. I would agree that there does feel like they're a little light on content ... almost as if 13 and 14 could have just been one episode's worth. 3x15 is directed by Nicotero, but rather importantly it's written by Gimple, so I'm expecting an upswing again akin to 3x12 "Clear", which seems to have been an episode that was pretty much universally loved.

As I've said before though, I am anxious to crack on. It's not the content itself, it's the layout of some of the content in this back half that has been a legitimate issue requiring a gentle course correction - but one that: 1) I fully expect and trust them to resolve for season four, and 2) I will freely admit has partly been exacerbated by my own fangasmic anticipation.

...

Now, back to the questions I set before - I really want to dive into ideas in the episodes a little more - so I'll get folks started by answering my own questions:


1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view?

Screw those guys, I'm still mad at them for so readily being up for slaughtering women and children - there's a baby at the prison for crying out loud! I suppose this is their version of survivalism, but they've lost their humanity for other people, or their moral compass is so easily discarded when it suits them. Clearly Allen has a chip on his flannel shoulder because Tyreese saved his wife at some point - but Allen's attitude is true to the comics (where I thought Allen was a fuck up waiting to happen at all times). Tyreese and Sasha on the other hand have the right stuff to join the Ricktatorship - they're not so ready to drop their morals in exchange for bed and board.


2) If you were a Woodbury resident - untrained in weapons, wrapped in cotton wool of old-world luxury, and under the spell of The Governor's vision - how do you think you'd react to the invasion by Team Prison, and the tooling-up for war with an "enemy" that you don't know, have probably not even seen, and essentially know little/nothing about?

I'd shit myself. Woodbury is a lie, and the residents have been all-too-willing to accept it. The intention of Woodbury is admirable, but the mechanics of how it came to exist is all messed up. On the other hand, as a Woodbury resident, I'd be watching the arena matches, so I'd be a little bit weird in the head by nurture anyway.

If it was me who happened to be in Woodbury, I'd probably take more of an Andrea position and seek to understand what actually happened - the why of the matter - before tackling it. If it proved to be a legitimate attack then I'd certainly take up arms, but I guess under the control of The Governor you've little choice.

It's a tough one.


3) If you were in Tyreese & Sasha's position when they were taken to the walker pits, what would your reaction have been?

"This is sick. We're the bad guys."


4) If you found yourself bound to a torture chair in The Governor's dungeon, what would you do to try and facilitate your escape?

Thrash about as much as possible, try and bite the bastard, and if I could free an arm I'd either grab the nearest implement and stab out his other eye, or if it was bare hands I'd gouge out the other eye to disable him ... or if I had a hand free before he arrived I'd free myself and lie in wait, then kill the bastard.

The question then would be - try and escape, or go all Apocalypse Now-ish and brandish the bloody truth to the residents and become the new leader ... ... okay, now we're fully into fantasy land.


5) As a member of Team Prison, would you repair the outer fences or leave them open with the walkers roaming about the field at the front?

Leave the outer fences busted - walkers in the field provides a further problem for attackers.


6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear (;)) and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle?

One idea I had just now would be to take shelves and bunk beds and stack them up at key corridor corners to block access - position them in such a jumbled way that it's impossible to pass through them, or move them, in the heat of the moment. Really jam them in there.

Onto you folks - answer my questions, damn you! :D

[Wyldwraith]

Allen and Ben: Andrews-in-the-making. Nuff said there.

Reaction of a Woodbury resident, PARTICULARLY after the Governor has shown NO compassion by insisting individuals like the teen with asthma join their "military"...which his mother/caregiver damned well knows will be a death-sentence condition in the field. (A) How is an asthmatic going to use the one advantage humans have, in the short term, in avoiding Walkers. Ie: Greater top speed. Answer: They're not. Further answer: Panic at their INABILITY to effectively flee will almost CERTAINLY trigger an asthma attack on the spot, robbing him even of the ability to stand and fight when he can't flee. B) How is an asthmatic supposed to exercise the ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY breath-control required for anything but point-point-blank gunshot accuracy? Answer: They can't, PARTICULARLY while stressed, frightened and on the edge of panic. C) What is an asthmatic supposed to do outside a secured area if even everything has been completely calm and going great, and suddenly some of the ninja-Walkers surround him? Even if he HAS an inhaler (highly doubtful by this point in the apocalypse due to the rapid degradation of the steroids without refridgeration. Can raid all the pharmacies you want, but if the power's been off even 2 weeks, all but the dried-add-water nebulizer-based asthma medications will be degraded to uselessness, and nebulizers are about as portable as a light-to-medium machinegun, Ie: Not at all. So pretty much ANY stress/exertion beyond the walls = death of asthmatic boy.)

Add in the elderly who aren't absolutely ancient, the most timid/traumatized/emotionally unequipped to confront Walkers, let alone armed human resistance, and a solid 1/3 of the Governor's conscripts must THEMSELVES be aware that if this is more than preparedness to defend Woodbury, and the Governor actually goes through with forcing them into military action beyond the walls, the only rational response once armed is to seem like you're going to go along, and wait until the Governor and Martinez are in your line of fire, then shoot them in the back in cold blood...or failing that just full-auto spray their position from a short distance away suddenly. The Governor has already divorced himself from his image as Protector of the People by treating them with visible contempt and abandoning them to panic, that was only brought under control by Andrea, whilst he sulked...except to pop out and shoot a bitten guy and go BACK inside to shirk his responsibilities some more...so there just CAN'T be any real attachment, confidence or loyalty towards him left in any of the Woodbury folk except the surviving remnant of his psychotics...and what's different now is that so very many of them have died that the Governor can no longer project that omnipresent "I have all of Woodbury locked down, in the palm of my hand via my death squad. Obey or die"...I think that the ACTUAL "Ok everyone, today's the day. Get in the trucks, we're going to go crush those bastards at the prison" would result in armed rebellion. You've got mothers and fathers being forced to watch their teens forced into the role of child-soldier. Family members watching Aunt Bee and Uncle Bernard being forced to put down their canes and pick up an M-16...how should anyone who wants to live read that except as "The Governor KNOWS a huge % of us aren't coming back, and he doesn't care so long as what he wants done, gets done." Add to that the Woodbury residents' absolute terror of the world beyond the walls...and they wouldn't kill him and his few true supporters because its RIGHT...they'd do it out of terrified self-preservation.

Course we know that won't ACTUALLY happen. In reality they'll march obediently in lockstep like good little cannon fodder into the jaws of Walkers and the bullets/crossbow bolts of Team Prison. I can't, not even a .000001% chance see ANYONE of the Woodbury type not resorting to any and all means available to avoid being thrust outside those walls in the back of open-air trucks. Let alone with the simmering resentment against the Governor for demanding their loved ones be put in that situation to begin with burning bright. You can't very well cow someone into obedience with threats when what you're trying to compel them to do is more horrifying than the punishment they're being threatened with.

Tyreese & Sasha: "I don't care how it went last time. They've handed us guns and ammo now. We're going over the wall during our guard shift and either try to reconcile with that crazy cowboy at the Prison, or strike out on our own. I'm not having any part of a regime who views Walkers as weapons of war.

In the Governor's torture chair: You're fucked. Look how exacting his preparations were. They tell of a very detail-oriented man. There's NO CHANCE he didn't secure the bonds in an inescapable manner...so your options are pretty much sit there and conserve energy hoping beyond hope for outside rescue...and when it doesn't come and he comes back in the room and picks up the first torture implement, bite through your tongue. Know it sounds horrifying, but POWs have done it many a time...and the blood loss is SO fast, SO hard to stem....especially if you're fighting to cut/rip away layers of duct tape you gagged the prisoner with...that even with a modern emergency room on standby there's a better-than-even chance you'll lose the suicidee. With their rough medical capabilities, it would be a sure thing. Admittedly it requires TRUE will to KEEP biting down through the horrendous agony you've caused once you're even a quarter of the way through...but the torture implements beside Andrea are EXACTLY the impetus that has aided POWs in doing it in the past. It's not so much anything as bright and shiny as Indomitable Force of Will...it's simple "I'm going to die in this chair, I can only control if I'm going to be EXTENSIVELY TORTURED before I die...so I'll rob the bastard of the satisfaction and at the same time escape all that pain."

Again, we know rescue is coming, or artificially to play out a similarity to the comics they'll come up with some contrived reason for her to allow herself to be tortured rather than killing herself...but I believe a solid 90% of people, having seen what someone like the Governor is like, and NOT ONLY having seen his torture chamber, but HOW HE LAID IT OUT AND THE HAPPY MOOD HE WAS IN WHILE DOING SO...would understand he's not just going to torture you to death. He's going to torture you until you're half-dead, patch you up, all so he can KEEP torturing you (the bags of saline/whole blood, and the IV stand I found more ominous than all the sharp implements, because they're what confirms he clearly has in mind providing medical care to restore his victim, so he can tear them down again and again and again INDEFINITELY)...would choose death over THAT. People fear agony and permanent maiming together more than they fear simple death.

Defense of the Prison: I wouldn't. I'd launch a pre-emptive attack, with my 2 key methods being use of vehicles and noise to summon a massive herd of Walkers and then guide them to Woodbury, and Wall-breaching tactics so the Walkers can get in and slaughter every single inhabitant of Woodbury. Then go home whistling and kidding each other "Did you see the look on their faces right before the Walkers tore them off?" And sleep like a baby, my conscience clear that I have only done unto them as they intended to do unto me. When fighting evil, stooping to the level of the evil is foolish. STOOP LOWER. Whoever reaches the most monstrously amoral and most effective tactic first wins. Good doesn't win Vs Evil in the Apocalypse. EVER. At least it wouldn't, in reality.

Even the Maker of the Universe recognizes this. Else why do you think, for the first and one of only 2 times total. God uses DIRECT OMNIPOTENCE to crush the gathered military might of the entire world during Armageddon? Unfortunately, we humans don't have the option of retaining our morality against superior forces. Like every outmanned and outgunned force in history, if we want to win we have to find more evil within ourselves, and a greater capacity to harness it in service towards afflicting our foe, and then basically inflict such horrifying atrocity crimes-against-humanity-scale violence that the superior force is demoralized and broken by fear of what will happen next if they keep fighting.

If I were fighting the Governor it would be a simple matter of using his tactics in a more refined, force-multiplying manner. Ie: Why I'd summon the hordes with hours of noise rather than box them up in trucks. Let the dead do the work, then pick through their shit once the dead have eaten them. If there was anyone who didn't deserve to die in Woodbury, no worries, God will take care of them.

And yes, I DO believe what I'm saying. The lessons of history are clear. Atrocity-capable guerillas beat noble upright conventional militaries 20x their size a solid 85% of the time.

As for the argument "If you resort to the level of your enemy, what makes you any better than them?" Answer: You're not, but if you did it RIGHT, there's no one left ALIVE to point that out.

[AcesandEights]

Haven't had the time to respond to the recent spate of posts from the last few days yet, but good points from so many folks, all around!

[facestabber]

1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view?

I disliked them from the beginning. They are not good people and have proven so by their quick and almost easy decisions to kill.

2) If you were a Woodbury resident - untrained in weapons, wrapped in cotton wool of old-world luxury, and under the spell of The Governor's vision - how do you think you'd react to the invasion by Team Prison, and the tooling-up for war with an "enemy" that you don't know, have probably not even seen, and essentially know little/nothing about?

This is tough. The residents watch and enjoy the zombie pit fights. Thats a little sick. Leave out the zombies and its MMA which I could understand. I dont hate the Woodbury folks. I think of them like the North Korean Populace. The Gov't(The Governor in their case) keeps them on an uniformed basis. I cant fault them with wanting to defend themselves against the so called terrorists. But becoming a hit squad and going on an offensive is a different story. And as Wyld as explained the show has not told us of an environment in which the people would actually be so ready to be the offensive force of the Gov's will. If I was a resident of Woodbury I wouldnt stay too long. Maybe lay low recoup my energy and strength then bail. I dont work well with evil or assholes and it wouldnt take me long to figure out the Gov.

3) If you were in Tyreese & Sasha's position when they were taken to the walker pits, what would your reaction have been?

I probably would have voiced my opinion that this is some sick shit. Probably jump on my soap box about humanity and the bigger picture of living and the right thing is. Maybe I would have got myself thrown in. But I could definitely give a Dale esque speech.

4) If you found yourself bound to a torture chair in The Governor's dungeon, what would you do to try and facilitate your escape?

I'd try verbal judo. Try to reach that small piece of humanity that may be left and hope for a quick death. Andrea is not getting out of that without outside help. Wyld elaborated this well.

5) As a member of Team Prison, would you repair the outer fences or leave them open with the walkers roaming about the field at the front?

Id prolly leave them but the Walkers dont take sides. They are eager to devour both teams. Something to think about is the Gov can order a driver to breech the inner fence and allow them access to one door away from where team prison sleeps. Basically it can help and hurt.

6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear (;)) and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle?

I shouldnt have started response during lunch break so I will be brief. Without knowing the full arsenal of the Gov if he attacks instead of starving them out, its a fatal error. Without spoiling what preview I saw it appears he does have a very powerful weapon. And it will be a huge problem for team prison from the commercial I saw. Team prison has the people and weapons to defend or rather inflict enough damage on the attackers to turn them away. Woodbury is not a collection of SEALS with bounding overwatch and diamond formations clearing hallways. Team prison can pick the angles and corridors to funnel them to and then slaughter them. Its quick but I gotta work. Oh and it would help team prison if they quit standing out in the open especially during daylight(Rick Im talking to you).
Let's make this fun - indulge your fantasy mindset. :)

...

Oh, and here's an interview with Laurie Holden:
http://dailydead.com/exclusive-interview-with-the-walking-deads-laurie-holden/[/QUOTE]

[babomb]

Because you're stealing the thread's limelight with complaints over minor flaws! :D:sneaky::D

I think we've all allowed the threads to slide mostly into reviews, rather than discussion of ideas, and I'm going to do my bit to rectify that.
Just one thing to say about that, I'll keep it short.
I admit that some of the things I've said were nitpicks. But it's not as if that's what I actually want to be discussing. If there were more engaging aspects to each episode the nitpicks wouldn't be my focus.
I went through and glanced over some of the season 2 threads lastnight. Most of the comments from directly after the show airs were things like "Another strong episode", people using huge fonts to say things like "Wow! That......was.....awesome!!!". And all of Wylds posts were about the actual content of the episode.
And I think that there's a reason that we've all allowed the threads to slide into reviews. It's the episodes themselves that drive the content of our posts. We didn't have to make a conscious effort to guide the discussion into that of ideas. It just happened that way because the episodes themselves inspired that.
I applaud your effort to breathe life back into our discussions, and your effort to try and stop the negative aspects of the show to take focus.
So onto that----



So, let's delve into some serious chat - some topic starters:

1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view? Complete wankers!! Well, Allen at least. Ben is just scared and looking out for his dad. Allen could be less douche like about things. Stop focusing on Tyreese showing him up and speaking his mind to the gov. Start focusing on fulfilling his obligations to his son and then Ben would be more confident. It's not Tyreeses fault if Allens wife wasn't confident in her husbands ability to protect her. What was he supposed to do? Not save Donna? Or instead of acting was he supposed to call Allen over to act to save her?


2) If you were a Woodbury resident - untrained in weapons, wrapped in cotton wool of old-world luxury, and under the spell of The Governor's vision - how do you think you'd react to the invasion by Team Prison, and the tooling-up for war with an "enemy" that you don't know, have probably not even seen, and essentially know little/nothing about? Probably the same. What else can they do or think? Their thinking is being done for them, the false sense of security is being deliberately created. Even if they think something else, the Gov assures them of what he wants them to believe, in a very convincing manner. They're being duped by a conman.


3) If you were in Tyreese & Sasha's position when they were taken to the walker pits, what would your reaction have been? Probably similar to Tyreese. But not make waves. Wouldn't want to bring attention to myself as a possible problem as that might make it more difficult to slip away in quiet. I'd focus on convincing Sasha it was time to leave. I prefer to have an active role in my own safety and future. Rather than leave it in someone elses hands in exchange for a subservient role as a deckhand of sorts.


4) If you found yourself bound to a torture chair in The Governor's dungeon, what would you do to try and facilitate your escape? That depends on who you are exactly. If you're Andrea, escape might not be the right place to focus your efforts. I'd try to instill some sympathy maybe.
If you're Michonne, you'll get no sympathy ever, so best to kill those trying to capture you or be killed by them before it gets to that point.


5) As a member of Team Prison, would you repair the outer fences or leave them open with the walkers roaming about the field at the front? Leave them open for now. There's benefits with the war looming, and more important things to focus on.


6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear (;)) and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle? For walkers only, clear the tombs and barricade the rear hole.
For defense from Woodbury, keep some walkers in the tombs, setup choke points in the corridors, leave a hidden rear exit for retreat, booby traps, and a well established plan of action that's rehearsed beforehand.


As for the argument "If you resort to the level of your enemy, what makes you any better than them?" Answer: You're not, but if you did it RIGHT, there's no one left ALIVE to point that out. In addition, the point isn't to be morally superior, it's to stay alive and keep your family alive, some of which may not have the ability the defend themselves in the least(Judith).

[MinionZombie]

Aye, this is what I'm talking about. Let's keep this going for the rest of the season (and beyond, of course) - get some spicy moral and "what if" questions thrown into the mix. :cool:

[Wyldwraith]

That's the problem Minion,
So many of the plot devices-in-motion take the air out of debate because of what we've seen of the writers demands. As plausible as my argument that at least SOME of the Woodbury residents would resort to armed rebellion rather than be forced beyond the walls into a conflict they know next to nothing about, with only the most minimal training, AFTER months of the Governor conditioning them that the Outside is dangerous/deadly, and thus they need his protection from it....the out-of-show knowledge that the writers will NEVER, not one chance in a million, write anything that directly prevents the Governor from attempting his ambush at the second meeting, or a later all-out assault using the Woodbury citizens as cannon fodder....tends to kill debate on the issue.

Fiat-style plot devices, of which there are four major ones in play at the moment, which collectively turn the outcomes of the last couple episodes into an all but foregone conclusion. We can't enjoyably speculate on what the Governor's against-his-own months of conditioning of the Woodbury folks now demands they do exactly what he's conditioned them NOT to do. It's an A-or-B choice. EITHER they rebel and refuse to be used as the cannon fodder they KNOW they're being put into position to be...which would anticlimactically eliminate the Governor and Martinez in a manner the writers would never allow, OR the disabled, the aged and the timid/traumatized...unsuitable for acting as survivors beyond the walls one and all or even collectively, blindly follow the Governor's dictates and allow themselves to be used as the aforementioned cannon fodder. In a two-choice fork, with one fork blocked off by out-of-show knowledge that the writers won't allow the Woodbury threat to die a non-epic death...where's the room for differing viewpoints?

About the only thing that can still be debated there is the level of influence the Governor still wields among the civilian inhabitants. Some here seem to believe the Governor's hold on them is alive and well, others like me see the extreme abandonment, and then reappearing only to forcibly conscript pretty much everyone older than 7 and younger than 80+, provide the most bare-bones of training (With 37 individuals the Governor can't allow them anything like the proper # of rounds-per-person to develop a basic proficiency with the weapon. 20-round mags, figure at the BAREST MINIMUM 10 magazines expended by EACH of these no-knowledge-of-assault-rifle-having civilians to develop the most rudimentary of accuracy...200 rounds per person multiplied by 37 = 7400 rounds gone even in this barest-bones training), and THEN going against his own months of hard work in convincing these people that for them to go beyond the walls is a death sentence by suddenly doing an about-face and pretty much saying "Ignore all that stuff I've been telling you for months about Outside...you'll be fine, really." People like me look at that situation and just can't see how a rebellion would fail to erupt if and when he gives the order for them to move out.

Again, it's an either-or choice. Either you believe the Governor still has super-mind-control powers over the people of Woodbury, or you believe that the Governor's own previous fearmongering about Outside would panic the people when he tried to move them out. It's a fairly hard-and-fast camp of decision-making...and I just don't see a creative in-between providing room for debate between the adherents of these two polar-opposite reads of what's happened and will happen onscreen.

Besides which, due to Andrea's improbable capture, this Sunday's offering is a known placeholder during which things don't move forward with regard to the conflict. So that leaves the finale to even BEGIN the fighting. Unless I'm VERY MUCH mistaken in how they intend to have Team Prison spend a ton of time discussing that idiotic Michonne-ultimatum + Herschel trying for a third (or is it fourth) time to convince Merle to mend his ways and embark on a quest to prove himself to the group. Given the 16-18 minutes of commercials, 44-42 minutes doesn't allow for a lot beyond Team Prison's melodrama and a flashover to the Governor preliminary-screwing with Andrea by what will likely be a no-physical-harm sadistic fear-tease of a first visit to the torture room.

Speaking of not much time left: Given the aforementioned time wasting that will go on at the Prison this Sunday, and only the finale to go after that, plus finally their love of leaving many core plotlines unresolved in addition to the primary cliffhanger...there's not a lot of reason to expect ANY plot-movement this Sunday, and only the first stirrings come the finale. Now if it was a 2-hour finale we might have room for things to get well under way before the cliffhanger arrived...but as it stands my bet is the finale will deal with the 2nd meeting and the Governor's intended ambush. Again, nothing really ambiguous there.

I'm sorry to be a negative Nancy, but they just AREN'T GIVING US the sticky unknowns and might-be's that we've received in the previous seasons. Everything is hyper-fiat-controlled...it reminds me of the old side-scrolling arcade games.

[Morto Vivente]

1) Thoughts on Allen & Ben? Are they complete wankers, or do they have a legitimate point of view?


Allen and Ben should be dubbed the Wankers of Woodbury. Even if they knew the Governor's secrets and schemes they'd still kiss his arse and do whatever he commanded.

IMO Ben is terrified and looking to his father to make his choices for him. It's the z-apocalypse and Allen is having a pissing competition with Tyreese because at some stage he saved his wife’s life instead of him, talk about an inferiority complex. If Allen became a walker it would be an improvement; at least his IQ would increase. The guy's a complete muppet who can’t see past the end of his nose.

Tyreese seems like a reliable type to face the apocalypse with. The fact that he was unwilling to betray team prison when they had the chance would lead me to think I can trust this guy for now. In contrast Allen was prepared to try and take the prison by force, he obviously believes that the end justifies the means. Allen belongs with the Governor, they're both weak and have lost whatever degree of humanity they had.

I feel sorry for Ben having a moron as a role model. In some ways his chances of survival would be greater without his father, he may even end up dead because of him. Ben just doesn’t see it, or doesn’t want to see it, at least not so far. This is why I love drama in an apocalyptic setting, especially the zombie variety. In theory, what choices would we like to make in a maximum stress situation ? IMO Allen and Ben is a case of the blind leading the blind.

[MinionZombie]

Allen and Ben should be dubbed the Wankers of Woodbury.

:lol::lol::lol:

I love that. :D

I remember Allen being very weak and unpredictable in the comics, so his television counterpart makes sense, but damn, he's really unlikeable. :lol:

[Wyldwraith]

Perhaps I'll try to come at it from a more positive up front angle:
@Minion: What do you envision this Sunday's episode encompassing, and why?
Also, do you agree/disagree that the citizens of Woodbury would choose rebellion over being thrust into an unknown conflict, with next-to-no training, which many of them are physically and/or emotionally/psychologically incapable of taking part in said conflict? In either case, what's your rationale in light of the Governor's recent negative actions/uncaring demeanor that supports why you feel they'd go along with the ill-fated assault or not?

Given that what they themselves have witnessed, and having detected the Governor's lies about the captured Walkers are only in play as a fear-generating bluff (Which Tyreese obviously didn't buy)...and seeing the preparations for Woodbury to launch a war of annihilation continue to escalate, is Tyreese/Sasha's ties to Allen/Ben strong enough to convince them to remain and take part in the war on Woodbury's side despite knowing the Governor has lied to them about his intentions, plus the means he is willing to use to succeed? Would they instead go over the wall on guard duty, take more direct action against this obviously evil assault, or continue to go along to get along? Either way, why?

So far as the Prison defense: Given only 1 fence separates the prison from the few dozen Walkers outside, given the Governor's proven capacity of smashing fences, and given the giant all-access pass to interested Walkers and humans alike that the smashed open rear of the prison is...doesn't it make sense to take the fight somewhere the Governor hasn't prepared for weeks to take?

[MinionZombie]

Gave it a second viewing, as I do with all episodes, on Fox UK last night and can I just say - thank heavens they've changed the "Joop!" advert. It's still ruddy Joop!, but they're briefer, don't have annoying music, or annoying slogans ("Real men wear pink" - as if :rolleyes:), or annoying, smug, man-child faces gawping at you as some undernourished random female slithers about his scrawny form.

3x14 has been the weakest episode of this back-half, but I still enjoyed it. I think the issue is the layout and structuring of the back half. 3x09 through 3x12 are all sorted, but as I've said before I feel that 3x13 and 3x14 could have been a single episode's worth of content ... but ... in order to do that, you'd have to restructure the entire back-half of the season. However, with these rumours circling Mazzara's departure, I'm totally confident that this is a temporary glitch.

Some ideas regarding 3x14 - the opening teaser with Michonne and Andrea in the woods was a pointless flashback. Teasing us with who Michonne's pets were could have been placed elsewhere, and earlier (they were heads in a fishtank very quickly and haven't been in the plot for a long time at this point), even though I did like the chain link. The establishment of the torture room could have been condensed right down to close up details and a just hands laying out the tools - that's a more elusive and suspenseful image/way to cover that scene.

I think someone mentioned 'why did Tyreese blow his top at Allen' - well, Allen's a massive twat, wouldn't you want to punch him? However, as I remember him from the comics, Tyreese has a temper - he's been known to explode - and I feel that came across in the subtext when Tyreese said it wouldn't happen again. I think it's something he's done before, and it's an inner demon for him.

Did anyone else notice the crash mat (when Andrea jumps down from the barricade), and the wobbly tree (when Andrea's getting attacked by walkers)? Speaking of which, I'd have staged that scene differently - rather than the 'out of frame' cheat that is common practice in all horror filmmaking, I'd have established that she already knew - and we knew - that walkers were in the woods by the roadside, but that it's better for her to hide in there than get caught on the open road. It would then be a case of Andrea have to wait as the truck slowly tootles by - all as the walkers get nearer and nearer to her (you could still trap her like they did in the show) as she has to remain still and quiet - then the truck drives off just as she's set upon and then continue as-is.

A slight readjustment.

The direction of the plot - as in the events happening, character arcs etc are basically all dandy in my view - it's the layout and structuring of those events that has been uneven in some parts of this back half. Not an awful situation by any means, but a situation they'll definitely be adjusting course for in season 4 under Gimple's leadership. The events still work, it's just that sometimes how they're enacted in the script could use a tweak, or similarly in the direction of the scene. Issues, certainly, but nothing dreadful.

Anyway - those were just some thoughts that sprang to mind after my second viewing of it last night, but instead of going around the same loop we've been through before, I'll jump on Wyld's questions...


Perhaps I'll try to come at it from a more positive up front angle:
@Minion: What do you envision this Sunday's episode encompassing, and why?
Also, do you agree/disagree that the citizens of Woodbury would choose rebellion over being thrust into an unknown conflict, with next-to-no training, which many of them are physically and/or emotionally/psychologically incapable of taking part in said conflict? In either case, what's your rationale in light of the Governor's recent negative actions/uncaring demeanor that supports why you feel they'd go along with the ill-fated assault or not?

I feel that the Woodburyites are essentially living in fear (of themselves, of each other, of the outside world, of anyone seeking to do them harm from the outside, of the walkers, of general danger), so some might choose rebellion (e.g. Milton, Andrea), while others will fear losing the comforts and safety that Woodbury has afforded them - at some point in their time in the apocalypse they will have had to fight, so many of them will be up for defending themselves if they really have to - and The Governor is crafting an image that they really have to defend themselves/go on the attack. Team Prison has been painted as terrorists by The Governor, and as far as most of Woodbury's residents are concerned, these are bad people who want to either kill them or take what they have.

Regardless of truly being emotionally/pyschologically/physically capable of fighting - if they have to fight, they'll have to fight. That's clearly the message coming forth from The Governor. It boils down to basic human instinct - kill or be killed, mob rule, go with the flow, keep your head down and try and let the more skilled fighters do the heavy work. However, clearly many residents of Woodbury are armed (see Martinez taking weapons off the residents in his wheelbarrow of guns), which means a lot of them are already capable of fighting - plus we've not been privy to their training/preparation.

In terms of Sunday's episode, I can't really say beyond some basic, sketchy theories...

This is the "two days later" meeting - I feel the structure should have been end of 3x13 "we're meeting in two days" then start of 3x14, BOOM, two days later and we're at the meeting ... ... anyway ... the previews seem a bit confusing, but they are only previews and out-of-context, but it seems that the handing over of Michonne is on the cards? I'm wondering if they've clued her in on it and she's going along with it to try and assassinate him like a trojan horse situation. Just a theory.

The previews I've seen have suggested a little more action - a bit more propulsion.

Surely we'll have a scene between a bound Andrea and The Governor ... but yeah, it's hard to say. I think there'll be some action, but the episode will probably end on a big old cock tease of a cliffhanger with war about to commence - then the finale will be a full-on war for 1/2 to 3/4 of the episode, with a breather at the end to assess the damage and tease season four.


Given that what they themselves have witnessed, and having detected the Governor's lies about the captured Walkers are only in play as a fear-generating bluff (Which Tyreese obviously didn't buy)...and seeing the preparations for Woodbury to launch a war of annihilation continue to escalate, is Tyreese/Sasha's ties to Allen/Ben strong enough to convince them to remain and take part in the war on Woodbury's side despite knowing the Governor has lied to them about his intentions, plus the means he is willing to use to succeed? Would they instead go over the wall on guard duty, take more direct action against this obviously evil assault, or continue to go along to get along? Either way, why?

Damn these questions are long... :p

I belive that Tyreese/Sasha and Allen/Ben's bond is fairly weak when it comes down to it. They'd probably try and convince them otherwise, but I feel Allen and Ben are too far gone - they're willing to kill children and a baby for crying out loud, just so they can have a warm bed to sleep in, whereas Tyreese and Sasha are not. I feel that T/S could turn their allegiance back to Team Prison in two ways - escape to the Prison and help out from there, or turn on Woodbury from the inside of the battle on Woodbury's flanks.

I don't think T&S will "go along to get along" ... A&B on the other hand, I have no faith in them whatsoever to do the right thing.


So far as the Prison defense: Given only 1 fence separates the prison from the few dozen Walkers outside, given the Governor's proven capacity of smashing fences, and given the giant all-access pass to interested Walkers and humans alike that the smashed open rear of the prison is...doesn't it make sense to take the fight somewhere the Governor hasn't prepared for weeks to take?

You mean like a battlefield elsewhere? How would they know where to go? What about baby Judith? I think it's best to either flee entirely, or defend your turf. There's no real point in blocking the busted out part of the fence (they could drive a truck through another part if they blocked the path of the opening with the prison bus, for example). It'll be more like a siege - think Straw Dogs - or something like that. Woodbury has limited directions of attack (although I think a strong team of fighters will be guided into the gaping hole in the back by fucktard Allen and Ben), and most of the fight will be like a traditional battlefield with two sides advancing on each other (or rather one static in a strong position - a castle, if you will - as the other advances and tries to breach their defences).

If the Governor can prepare, so can the Ricktatorship (and we've seen some of the preparations). Taking it elsewhere would be a strange thing, but it would also be far riskier for Team Prison - they'd be in a far weaker spot.

[Wyldwraith]

Hmm,
I don't agree that the Governor's painting of Team Prison as terrorists they need to defend themselves against would overwhelm concerns like "He's forcing my asthmatic son, or he's forcing my elderly family members into a brutal life-or-death struggle OUT THERE...when, if things are truly as he says, we could far more safely continue the training/organizing and just defend Woodbury against any incursions." It's not the Governor's insistence they all be trained to work as a militia that I think would touch off a revolt, it's the obviousness that him forcing the Woodbury people to take the fight to the enemy ISN'T ABOUT DEFENSE. Even look at the raid(s) on Woodbury: Very fast in-and-outs, with the only casualties being those who directly sought out battle with the "terrorists" seeking to spring first Glenn/Maggie, and then Daryl/Merle. Hardly supporting evidence of the Governor's declaration that they want to wipe Woodbury out, and thus Woodbury must preemptively wipe THEM out to prevent that. This seems like it might be another of those we'll have to agree to disagree, because as things stand I believe the Woodbury residents' fears for the vulnerable/ill-equipped individuals the Governor has conscripted are CONCRETE fears...whereas the picture the Governor paints is of POSSIBLE things to fear.

Basically, the Woodbury residents know the terrorists MIGHT come back. Though there's reason for them to believe said "terrorists" WON'T, because BOTH times they raided, Woodbury was holding captive one or more of the "terrorists" people. While on the other hand, they KNOW that if the Governor gives the order to mobilize and move out, it's the GOVERNOR who's now bringing death in the form of casualties to them. People give priority in their fears to the imminent threat over the down-the-road possible threat every time. In that respect, the Governor's current attempted manipulation of them, unlike his previous manipulations (which took advantage of what they wanted to hear), are now running counter to human nature, and I believe he's burned up too much goodwill of late for that to turn the tide of emotion his way. PLUS, Andrea (who the crowd had placed their trust in since the Governor quite visibly abandoned them) is no longer around to bolster the people's confidence and allay their fears.

I agree with you concerning Tyreese and Sasha. The conflict at the pit was pretty much the end of the tie between Allen, and unfortunately for him by proxy Ben, and Tyreese/Sasha. I don't even believe they'd give them a chance to come with if they decide to go or turn on the Gov's forces from the inside, for fear Allen might use the warning as an opportunity to take his revenge on Tyreese.

About the Prison defense: I still think Team Prison would be better served to lure a horde to Woodbury using a heavy-duty vehicle, breach the wall in one or more places, and then drive said heavy-duty vehicle back through the horde to freedom. Even if the Woodbury residents ultimately fought off the Walkers, there'd be substantial casualties and they'd burn through a TON of ammo...particularly for that highly dangerous mounted .50

Then, if they wanted to fall back to the prison and fight a defensive conflict their position would be far stronger, because they would've significantly lessened both of the Governor's 2 key advantages. Greater supplies and greater manpower. Even better, there's always the chance that the Governor might lose say, Martinez in the Walker-invasion...which would be a MAJOR blow to his campaign. But just sitting there, even if they are doing what they can to prepare within the prison, is giving the Governor time to get all his ducks in a perfect row and cement his battle plan. Being active as opposed to reactive is the power-position 99% of the time. The Governor has dubbed them terrorists? FINE, then show the Woodbury of Sheeple some REAL terrorist tactics.

You're probably right about the shape of the upcoming episodes...though vastly more hopeful in outlook concerning them.

[MinionZombie]

But how would they successfully manage to lure a herd? They'd have to find one too - and all this time could be spent securing and locking down their castle and getting ready ... plus I don't feel that's really in the Ricktatorship's modus operandi - anyone who fights them is a legitimate target, but trying to use walkers to attack Woodbury would also mean killing innocent people, and that's not Rick & Co's style. Plus it'd be too much zombie wrangling for one episode/series - there needs to be different tactics for each side.

Team Prison also need to gather themselves and prepare back at their base, just like The Governor.

The front gate could conceivably be breached, with a little A-Team/Gauntlett style retro-fitting of a bus or something, but then you'd have to get out of the place ... that's a tough call, Woodbury only has one gate, you'd potentially wipe out a bunch of the walkers you'd be using as weapons if you reversed out, and if you waited to let them in and start causing chaos you'd be a sitting duck in your lead vehicle. Plus such an approach would be the work of terrorists, and while I remember to mention it, Woodbury's residents don't know that Merle brought Glenn and Maggie to Woodbury, nor do they know they were tortured, and so they look at Team Prison as thugs who want their beds - they fall for The Governor's politicking hook, line, and sinker.

In terms of the elder folks they'd be seeking to arm - I'd assume they'd keep those ones in back, or back at Woodbury for defense purposes - we'll have to see - but if you're fit enough to move about normally and get from your home and end up in Woodbury amidst sheer chaos, then you're fit enough to provide rear gun support in a battle. Desperate times, desperate measures.

I wonder if the pregnant lady (forget her name now) will be jogging onto the battlefield, toting a machine gun? :lol::D:lol:

A possibility might be - at the second meeting - that Team Prison try to take out the Woodbury leadership in the same remote area, just like The Governor plans to do. There could be, at least, a significant - but not fatal (to the team) loss on each side in such a confrontation ... they might also, as I proffered earlier, clue Michonne in on the trade-off idea and instead get her to go with Team Woodbury and try and snuff them from the inside ... although she'd probably be bound and gagged straight away, so that's an idea shot down readily. :p

We'll see, I suppose. The next episode is from Gimple, so I'm expecting good things a la "Clear". :)

[Morto Vivente]

6) Speaking of Prison defense - we know that walkers are getting in via the gaping hole in the rear (;)) and through the network of corridors - in this Post Apocalyptic Home Alone, how would you defend your castle?




1. To prepare I would firstly create and maintain a clear escape route in case the prison was breached from the front. The route would lead through the corridors to the rear of the prison, maintenance would require keeping the walker population under control. Using the available floor plans everyone would memorize this route. In addition I would herd as many walkers as possible using riot gear for protection into strategically selected cells, to be released collectively or in groups at the touch of a button. I would be looking to navigate the corridors quickly and try to avoid fire fights or being pinned down.

2. With Merle‘s army experience I’d set up trip-wire booby traps along the escape route and at key locations within the maze of corridors using the stash of hand grenades. This would capitalize on the poor visibility and team Woodbury’s lack of intel on the layout. Merle plus other team members would know the b-trap locations by heart and they'd also be subtlety marked on site to prevent team prison casualties during the escape. As a back up the booby trap locations would be marked on the floor plans. Merle would take point during the corridor gauntlet.

3. Assuming that the Woodbury assault comes from the front of the prison I would try to make a stand and whittle down their numbers. Team prison would be positioned to try and minimize the likelihood of anyone being cut off in case they have to bail. I’d remove the walkers from the front of the prison in advance. They’re an extra unpredictable element that could be eliminated before the onset, especially since ammo no longer appears to be an issue.

4. If the prison front was breached then the escape plan would be put into motion. On route through the corridors at the correct time the walkers would be released from the cells to slow down any advance by the Governor. Random explosions and roaming walkers would certainly produce panic in an untrained assault team. Leading up to, and during the battle I’d have Hershel constantly guarding the prison rear to prevent the exit from being cut off by walkers/team Woodbury. Let’s face it Hersh won't be speeding through those corridors so he'd have to mind Judith too. ;)

Did I mention… walkie-talkies would be handy? Without walkies I'd have Beth as a runner between the front and rear of the prison to facilitate some level of communication. Primarily to warn Rick and co if the exit was in danger of being compromised. She'd have to be able to navigate the b-traps though. :skull:


5. Lastly, camouflaged (if possible) vehicles would be parked outside the rear perimeter as a last resort in case the booby traps and walkers fail to decimate the Woodbury forces.

It may be difficult to put this plan in place within 2 days, but you did say fantasy mindset. ;)

[Wyldwraith]

To retort,
1) Leaning on a car/truck horn for an hour would muster an impressive # of zombies. Look what TWO gunshots drew in at the farm. You can't tell me the area around the prison isn't at LEAST that infested. So there goes the waste-of-time argument against doing it.

2) Who says a human being has to be BEHIND THE WHEEL when said heavy vehicle smashes into the Woodbury gate. For 100-130 yards on straight road, it would not be terribly difficult to lock the steering wheel and put in some sort of lever to keep pressure on the accelerator. It's a classic action-sequence archetype. TWD is too good for the old "driverless decoy crash"? No, it isn't. That solves the problem of extricating the vehicle once you crash through, killing your intended weapons by needing to back out, and any danger to a member of Team Prison. Glenn/Maggie in a 2nd vehicle pick up whoever was driving the ramming vehicle once its set to go. Push the lever down to floor the gas while its in neutral, lock it in place, pop it into drive and bail immediately, rushing back to the 2nd vehicle. Roll back to the prison and call it a day. Tit for tat realism. If the Governor can manage it with only one casualty that didn't even need to happen if the idiot hadn't put himself in a location with no escape route, then by "TWD Logic" it's not that hard to use a vehicle to smash down multiple Walker-barriers.

The whole point of my advocating outside-the-prison attacks is that no matter how intricately you prepare the Prison both as defensive bastion and escape-route-wise, by sitting and waiting for the Governor's forces to arrive you're making the gross strategic mistake of allowing the enemy to bring his elements of maximum strength to bear against you.

Look at some major historical upsets, or even a tactical loss for the defenders that ended up being an overall strategic victory. At Marathon the Greeks attacked while the Persians were still beaching their ships. They did so because they were aware they had no answer on the field for the Persian cavalry and chariots...so they didn't allow said horses and chariots to be unloaded and thus forced the Persians to fight on their teams.

Then again at Thermopylae, Leonidas/Spartans & Thesbians were outnumbered at LEAST 25x to one, so they chose a battlefield that prevented use of the cavalry/chariots once again, AND controlled the size of the front-line so their enemy's numerical advantage was meaningless. Yes, they were eventually flanked and defeated, but they'd slowed Xerxes down so much that by the time he rolled on through Thermopylae he ended up facing the whole of Greece. The rest is history. Same deal a couple generations later with Alexander Vs Darius II at Gagaumela(sp?)...Flanked and enveloped Pikemen (the traditional deadly enemy of cavalry) WITH cavalry, knowing the line was paper thin there with regards to cavalry and they would win the race to Darius before supporting infantry could intervene. Darius II ran like a bitch, leaving an army 50x the size of the Greeks to be 90+% wiped out. Thus destroying Persian rule for all time.

The point makes itself. You DON'T let your enemy bring their "biggest guns" to bear, and instead force them to cobble together an alternate battle plan on the spot when they're rudely surprised the strength they were relying/had planned on is now moot.

There are too few of Team Prison's A-class fighters for any kind of even half-static defense. I agree with using the Tombs to winnow down the Gov's forces...but LATE in the battle to shatter them, NOT early while they're at near-full strength. Team Prison needs tactics that kill off a significant % of these so-called "innocents" before those trucks full of armed Woodbury-ites roll up in front of the prison's broken front gate. If the majority remaining are ALREADY scared/unsure before that point, it won't take much more to rout them. Whereas leaving them untouched until they come to the Prison means you have to beat them down from as confident as they were ever going to be to completely morale-shattered.

PLUS, relying almost entirely on very close-quarters room-to-room combat with combatants using automatic weapons is a GUARANTEED WAY to lose at least SOME of Team Prison. Due to events earlier in the season there's no one disposable left to kill off.

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No replies? I'm heartbroken ;)
Seriously though, the "How to crush Woodbury" discussion was just getting interesting...

[sandrock74]

I think Rick should have at least one of the prison gates repaired, maybe even drag the overturned prison bus to rest along the inside of the main gate. Imagine when Woodbury's civilian army comes rolling in and finds, "Whoops, the gates are back up!" Purely from a psychological standpoint, that would make a clear statement that this won't be easy for them. Heck they can even booby trap the gates, to discourage Woodbury from tampering with them. From the looks of the prison, its is all high grass, hilly terrain, a creek, and forest around it, not ideal driving conditions to try ramming the fences from any other position (if its even possible).

Something like that would force Woodbury into a snipers war, which I don't honestly think they can hope to win. The Ricktatorship just goes into the prison and don't have to worry about being shot. I don't even think a war of attrition is much of a worry for Rick and the gang (that sounds like the name of a band!), as the zombies outside would keep the Woodbury crew from cementing any positions. They would be forced to actively fight off the zombies and/or be forced to retreat.

The ideal goal for Rick and his peeps (another band name!) is to make Woodbury pay dearly for any actions they take on the prison. Believe me, it wouldn't take long for most of that civilian army to beat feet! Especially is someone like Martinez could be taken out! That would lead to a route.

Also, something else that I haven't seen anyone else mention: The Governor will be forced to leave some of his "army" behind to guard the walls at Woodbury, so he won't have his "full strength" at his back and call. Unless he makes the complete dumbass rookie error of leaving Woodbury completely unguarded, he's going to make the other unwise decision of splitting his forces. Basically, it looks like the Governor, in his rush to attack the prison, is going to blunder into unwise military strategies...

[MinionZombie]

@Sandrock: "Rick & The Gang" - "Rick & His Peeps" ... :lol::lol::lol:

@Wyld - I like the idea of the '2nd vehicle jump' thingy, although I'm not convinced it would work on-screen for the show, but then as I'd said before I'm not convinced about that particular tactical approach to the situation. Perhaps being a British person, in a nation where we've got castles coming out of our arses, my gut feeling is to go for the castle siege idea and defend from a strong position ... go all Helm's Deep. :) Although your approach would make for an exciting bit of telly.

@Morto - some really good ideas. I like the idea of booby traps - although I'm not sure where they'd get the floorplans for the prison from ... I guess they'd have to draw up ones of their own on some paper from somewhere ... dig the idea of Beth as a runner, and Hershel (perhaps with one of those baby backpacks) guarding the rear with vehicles stashed in case of an emergency.

Speaking of booby traps, it's a shame they couldn't convince Morgan to join them - the dude's a master at such things! :D

[Morto Vivente]

- - - Updated - - -

No replies? I'm heartbroken ;)
Seriously though, the "How to crush Woodbury" discussion was just getting interesting...


Your point about preventing team Woodbury from bringing their superior firepower/numbers to bare makes total sense strategically.

Assuming the assault will strike at the front of the prison and that there is only one access road. What if select members of team prison ambush the Woodbury convoy on route to the prison perimeter. They could possibly destroy some vehicles with hand grenades and Merle could snipe a driver or two. The goal being to force some vehicles of the road allowing other ambush squad members to drill them with assault rifles. The element of surprise and subsequent confusion may even enable the team prison squad to return to the prison. Such an attack if successful would certainly demoralize the Woodbury force before it even reaches the prison perimeter, as you pointed out; psychological advantage is a necessity when out numbered.

However I would have doubts about splitting the team. Your thoughts ?


@ MZ:
My recollection may be wrong, but I think they found floor plans before Rick decided to clear out the other cell block, in a very early episode.

Morgan would be an excellent recruit for team prison. If he had the time he'd probably have tree logs crushing team Woodbury vehicles à la Return of the Jedi. ;)

Hershel would need one of those Baby on Board stickers though. ;)

[Wyldwraith]

@Morto:
I don't think force-splitting would be a problem for Team Prison, SO LONG AS THEY DONT GO TOO FAR from the Prison. Rick & Co. are already extremely used to dividing up into multiple smaller units to accomplish several goals at once. I think Rick, Daryl and Merle could handle the raid on the trucks you're speaking of. Leaving Herschel in strategic overwatch at the Prison, with Glenn/Maggie as his lieutenants and Beth/Carl as scouts/runners, with Michonne in the role of floating back-up. However, a key part of the plan would need to be a pre-planned route that gets Rick/Daryl/Merle back under cover and reunited with the others very quickly after the raid.

Given those open-air trucks, can you imagine the damage you could do if you dropped a tree across the road leading to the prison, bringing the convoy to a stop for even a few minutes while Martinez organizes a detachment to deal with either lifting out of the way, or chopping up then lifting the deadfall...then, while the trucks were stopped lob a grenade into the back of a couple of the trucks. In that environment, you're talking about an IDEAL use of a grenade, Ie: Dense concentration of enemies in a very small area that isn't easy to extricate themselves from en masse within seconds. Even people who frantically dove over the side of one of those open-air military trucks are likely to sustain injuries...ESPECIALLY among the old and/or already somewhat frail individuals. Done right, you could get 10-15 severely wounded or killed...plus further distract the survivors who would need to turn their attention fairly quickly to determining who's dead, who's unconscious or might be dying and who's simply wounded or unharmed, because shrapnel injuries almost certainly won't cause lethal brain trauma, so the grenade-casualties would be on-the-clock to reanimation time.

Add to that a quick surprise burst of Rick & Merle with assault weapons (which Merle seems quite "handy" (a groaner I know) with) and Daryl popping off a couple Xbow bolts, and 12-15 dead/seriously wounded could be accomplished without them even leaving the cover of the treeline. As a bonus, given how woods-wise Daryl and Merle are, I bet they could get the drop on a couple of the Governor's spies currently deployed in the woods opposite the prison. That would be 14-17 wounded/killed before the Woodbury-ites even SAW a target to fight back against. Add in the emotional trauma of needing to headshot 20-25% of their forces to prevent reanimation, and that could be the battle then and there. Look how much the Woodbury-ites freaked unanimously when just TWO of their people died in front of them due to the brief Walker incursion of Woodbury. They were ready to abandon Woodbury en masse before Andrea stepped in....and now they'd be staring at 7x more casualties.

I'm more than willing to entertain numerous possible tactics they could employ...I just think hunkering down in the Prison with no outside attacks, as their primary strategy, JUST ISN'T a path to victory. Look at the current roster. With Axel gone, the closest we've got to disposable potential casualties amongst Team Prison are Carol and Beth. Carol I'd hate to see go, but could accept it fairly easily. Beth has no purpose other than to be Carl's first-sexual-experience-in-the-offing and as Judith's babysitter. With the group that lean on disposables, as I said before, heated ongoing hall-to-hall, room-to-room close quarters combat with assault weapons is bound to be an attrition-rich environment...because if they go the route of letting 35+ Woodbury-ites (including the likes of Martinez, the handles-an-assault-rifle very confidently young brunette we began seeing on the wall after the raids had significantly depleted the Gov's goons by 90%) come into the Prison to fight it out...even with all the aforementioned benefits of Team Prison fighting in their home turf, with automatic weapons, confined spaces and short distances, all it takes is ONE wounded and panicky Woodburyite to round the wrong corner at the wrong moment, see movement and begin hosing the area down on full-auto until the clip runs dry. It would leave them an easy kill for the nearest surviving member of Team Prison, but that wouldn't bring back whoever just caught 3-4 5.56m rounds in the abdomen, chest and an extremity.

One should remember the Woodbury folks dont necessarily need to be accurate. Dump a lot of lead downrange in a very confined area, and a hail of ricocheting flattened/fragmenting slugs could be just as deadly to a defender even behind direct-line-of-sight cover whose trying to hold a preprepared chokepoint. This is one of the reasons I think facing 30+ assault-rifle-wielding invaders inside the prison, with no prior steps taken to thin the invaders ranks is a BAD idea of Alamo/Masada magnitude.

[Morto Vivente]

Given those open-air trucks, can you imagine the damage you could do if you dropped a tree across the road leading to the prison, bringing the convoy to a stop for even a few minutes while Martinez organizes a detachment to deal with either lifting out of the way, or chopping up then lifting the deadfall...then, while the trucks were stopped lob a grenade into the back of a couple of the trucks. In that environment, you're talking about an IDEAL use of a grenade, Ie: Dense concentration of enemies in a very small area that isn't easy to extricate themselves from en masse within seconds. Even people who frantically dove over the side of one of those open-air military trucks are likely to sustain injuries...ESPECIALLY among the old and/or already somewhat frail individuals. Done right, you could get 10-15 severely wounded or killed...plus further distract the survivors who would need to turn their attention fairly quickly to determining who's dead, who's unconscious or might be dying and who's simply wounded or unharmed, because shrapnel injuries almost certainly won't cause lethal brain trauma, so the grenade-casualties would be on-the-clock to reanimation time.

:D BRUTAL :D

Sounds like a solid strategy. I particularly like the idea of felling a tree to bring the convoy to a halt. The location would be important though in order to limit visibility on approach, and minimize any suspicion in the Governor’s camp (he’s a sneaky bastard). The exit from a bend in the access road could work (assuming there is one), it might even precipitate a small pile up or worse… Then let rip as you described. I seem to remember Michonne inspecting a 50mm machine gun. How about having it deployed under camouflage, then hosing the Woodbury convoy combined with a few grenades lobbed into the trucks. I’m guessing it’s a cumbersome piece of weaponry though, thereby reducing their chance of escape?

You mentioned Masada and it got me thinking, however unlikely (due to walker threat outside the prison),if a siege did develop, I’d definitely have Michonne and Daryl infiltrate the Woodbury camp at night to perform a sabotage mission. Say, igniting their ammo dump in conjunction with picking off a few Woodbury-ites. It would be TWD medieval style, with sword and crossbow. ;)

The idea of a siege raised a question for me. How is the Woodbury assault force going to deal with the walker threat if they’re positioned around the prison perimeter ? Sustained gun fire is surely going to attract the surrounding undead population, which up until now has been quite significant. I believe Merle called it the Red Zone. Can you imagine; plugging away with your M4 and a walker shambles up behind you and bites you on the arse! They'd have to push for the interior of the prison quite quickly I'd imagine. Any thoughts on this ?

[Buzzbomb]

4) If you found yourself bound to a torture chair in The Governor's dungeon, what would you do to try and facilitate your escape?


Andrea should have told the Governor he was going to be a father again... that might have saved her skin...

[MinionZombie]

Andrea should have told the Governor he was going to be a father again... that might have saved her skin...

Ooh, that's a good idea!

[AcesandEights]

Ooh, that's a good idea!

I don't know, you guys didn't check whether that chair had horizontal hinge mounts, did you? What if the Governor put on his headlamp and went all gyno? :hurl:

[Morto Vivente]

Andrea should have told the Governor he was going to be a father again... that might have saved her skin...

This would have stopped the torture and bought her some time. I have my doubts as to it directly facilitating her release? I think the the Governor would have required some proof, him being such a confidence trickster.

[Ragnarr]

That would've been smart for Andrea to do. Trouble is we're talking about Andrea. Smart never seemed to describe her actions in any season. I also have a problem how Andrea was within sight of the prison when the Gov jumped her, then POOF... they're already back at Woodbury and she's in the chair of doom. Unless the Gov used some type of tranquilizer on her, I'm hard pressed to believe it was so easy for him to get her back to Woodbury, past a bunch of guards and into his torture chamber without anyone noticing.

Then of course as mentioned earlier, Andrea taking her time getting herself untied bugged me to no end. Just say'n...