Contains Spoilers! TWD 3x15 "This Sorrowful Life" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN** [Archive]

Wyldwraith

25-Mar-2013, 02:26 AM

See,
The dressing/finery of the episode was much better, and the characterization/dialog much improved, but core plot-wise it's nigh onto impossible to get away from everything having been foreseen (in the larger sense). Sadly, had an episode of this quality landed in the middle of the season I would rate it far higher, but given everything has been building to the Gov/Team Prison conflict the 60 minutes used up were much more precious, and I wanted more plot progression. We've had oodles and oodles of characterization of late...but the overall conflict has been just bleh.

Now, we're onto the finale, and The Gov's side suddenly manifests a frigging GRENADE LAUNCHER. C'mon, WHY would a NATIONAL GUARD UNIT even HAVE such ordinance? Yet ANOTHER artificial and wholly unneeded advantage for Team Evil. The mounted .50 wasn't ENOUGH?

Plus, with Daryl a headcase and Merle gone, Team Prison just lost 2 of the 4 A-Class fighters. Making running a no-brainer and fighting it out frustratingly futile. You can't beat a group in control of that kind of equipment without similar firepower or at least manpower. I'm thinking I'll just skip the finale and catch it before next Season begins, because there's now 0.0% chance of anything but fireworks from the Gov's side, frantic defense and flight from Team Prison...just bleh. They could have someone shoot the Gov in the head at the end and not be able to salvage it IMO.

I didn't want to be right, but in my gut I knew last episode had blown this episode. The big surprise was that THIS episode + previews blows the finale before it plays.

JonOfTheShred

25-Mar-2013, 02:27 AM

Great episode. Best part was Merle chugging whiskey and listening to Motorhead.

So who else spotted the Dawn reference?

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac148/AKnight2009/Santana%20Naya%20Gifs/santanaraiseshand.gif

I immediately thought of the discussion a few episodes back when I saw that walker. We were all debating if the zombie peaking through Woodbury's fence was an homage to Dawn. There is no question about it this time, though.

Philly_SWAT

25-Mar-2013, 02:34 AM

So who else spotted the Dawn reference?

I immediately thought of the discussion a few episodes back when I saw that walker. We were all debating if the zombie peaking through Woodbury's fence was an homage to Dawn. There is no question about it this time, though.

I noticed it right off! I had to pause the show, go over to the bookcase, get the figure from the shelf, and bring it back to the couch and show her how exact the reference was.

Staredge

25-Mar-2013, 02:47 AM

Missed it, but I haven't seen Dawn in ages. Pics???

Cykotic

25-Mar-2013, 02:51 AM

1225

This one appears when merle is in the car having a drink before he goes quick-scoping

Moon Knight

25-Mar-2013, 03:00 AM

After this episode I can see the show is in good hands next season. I loved it. Very emotional and who would have thought Merle's actions would have such an emotional impact. Great stuff. He was pretty badass up until his end too. Bravo. I caught the Dawn reference immediately too!

rongravy

25-Mar-2013, 03:09 AM

Plus, with Daryl a headcase and Merle gone, Team Prison just lost 2 of the 4 A-Class fighters.
Merle's gone, but I'm guessing Daryl is going to go all Rambo on their asses, especially when Guv lets him know he's the one who personally offed his brother, and we all know he's going to.
So that's really only one gone, and I believe it'll inspire Daryl to viciously new heights in payback.

Anyhoo: R.I.P. Merle. I told my kid he was going to die when I saw how they were trying to make Merle look like a big old sweety. I just didn't think it'd be until next week.

sandrock74

25-Mar-2013, 03:09 AM

I caught the Dawn reference and excitedly told everyone about it. LOL! Not that anyone was impressed by my picking up on it...

facestabber

25-Mar-2013, 03:36 AM

So who else spotted the Dawn reference?

You ask that on HPOTD forum? Come on man. Just joking but ofcourse I caught it. Great to pay homage to the Legend.

Yea so Rick wasnt going to go through with the Michonne handoff but at the slimest chance he would at that point I had went from certified Rick fanboy to completely done with him. Gray areas I understand but there are differences between right and wrong. Very disappointed in Daryl for not having the 'balls' to tell Rick to pound sand.

Motorhead in TWD.....hell to the yea. Lemmy seems like a Merle kind of guy. Speaking of Merle, gotta give credit to the writers for taking the last 10 minutes of an episode and taking Merle from a hated scumbag to an empathetic hero. In the end the good that was in him came forward. Im actually glad he went out like that. Happy to see him drop Ben. Sad to see a surprise Ninja zombie ruin more of his destruction.

Michonne, well I just love her more and more. Danai is playing the character wonderfully

Really bored of Glen anymore. I loved season 1 Glen but the love crap just doesnt work for me but whatever.

To Wylde regarding spoiler. I noticed that item last week in a preview. It is definitely a game changer. But I can see the group it was retrieved from absolutely having access to it. Not standard issue I'm sure but could def be had.

Show of hands for having some nerves of a bullet shattering Glen or Maggies head? Or both when they kissed? Team prison really has to quit exposing themselves in the open. Rick knows there are scouts and obviously Axel's death wasnt enough.

kidgloves

25-Mar-2013, 03:45 AM

Brilliant episode.
Lucky Im off sick at the moment and can stay up so late.
Also huge DAWN reference when Merle is messing about in the car and Michonne is shouting at him. I was whispering (its late here) "GET ITS HEAD UP".
Bed now.
Goodnight.

Christopher Jon

25-Mar-2013, 03:54 AM

Now, we're onto the finale, and The Gov's side suddenly manifests a frigging GRENADE LAUNCHER. C'mon, WHY would a NATIONAL GUARD UNIT even HAVE such ordinance? Yet ANOTHER artificial and wholly unneeded advantage for Team Evil. The mounted .50 wasn't ENOUGH?
.

The spoiler. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_National_Guard Georgia NG have a lot of cool stuff.

JoshMM

25-Mar-2013, 04:11 AM

First post here. I thought the reference was awesome! :)

--Josh

babomb

25-Mar-2013, 04:18 AM

I wasn't as dissapointed as I thought I'd be in this episode. It took a couple turns I didn't expect. Only thing i didn't like was how they use some of the small details in things to set the stage for a character to misconstrue in order to drive a sub-plot. But they're nitpicks, like the way overused "just as he has has him in his sights, someone steps in front of the bullet and accidentally saves him".
I'm interested to see how the finale plays out though. They're making it seem like they flee the prison just as woodbury arrives. But then the name of the finale suggests otherwise. But if they flee, what will they use to make the finale a great episode?

sandrock74

25-Mar-2013, 04:31 AM

They're making it seem like they flee the prison just as woodbury arrives. But then the name of the finale suggests otherwise. But if they flee, what will they use to make the finale a great episode?

A prison full of Walkers awaiting the Governor and his men and Rick and the gang head over to Woodbury to take it over! LOL

babomb

25-Mar-2013, 07:56 AM

A prison full of Walkers awaiting the Governor and his men and Rick and the gang head over to Woodbury to take it over! LOL That'd be cool. I just can't see it happening that way though. At least, I can't see prison group going to woodbury. Unless they go looking for Darryl and as coincidence has it, the Gov and his men are heading to the prison at the same time but the 2 groups don't see each other.

- - - Updated - - -

Merle's gone, but I'm guessing Daryl is going to go all Rambo on their asses, especially when Guv lets him know he's the one who personally offed his brother, and we all know he's going to.
. I'm not too sure about that. I think Daryl is gonna think there was a conspiracy amongst the prison group to get rid of Merle.
You have the scene where Rick says they need Merle, and Daryl says he'll talk to him, but Rick says he'll do it alone. And since Rick didn't tell anyone but Herschel right off the bat about the Gov's offer, Daryl is suspicious. Then he sees Michonne on his way back and asks if she killed him. Then he finds Merle and he's a walker.
Merle had his 2 fingers bit off, and Glen cut 2 fingers off that female walker for the ring. Daryl might see those fingers that Glen cut off on his way into the prison and assume they're Merle's, and think Micchonne killed him and that Rick gave the order. At the very least, IMO, he'll blame Micchonne.

Rottedfreak

25-Mar-2013, 08:54 AM

Awesome episode, it might be the best one this season.

Wyldwraith

25-Mar-2013, 12:12 PM

There was a point missed,
I wasn't referencing the possibility of a National Guard unit being initially OUTFITTED with such ordinance, but rather THEIR STILL BEING AMMO FOR SAID DEVICE BY THIS POINT. C'mon now, things got SO bad that the higher-ups authorized AIR STRIKES in DOWNTOWN ATLANTA, KNOWING there had to be at minimum still tens of thousands of uninfected people down there they'd be slaughtering. Something like a grenade launcher would've been used up hardcore on dense shoulder-to-should hordes blanketing entire streets and shambling toward the position a unit like they would've been ordered to hold, or a structure they'd been ordered to secure (like an evacuation station). Then, given how much trouble a small and relatively silent (compared to a convoy of big diesel trucks, a couple with air brakes) convoy of cars had avoiding the hordes all over the area before Rick & Co. found the prison, you can't tell me you buy the idea the National Guard unit didn't run into two dozen Walkers for every Walker that Rick & Co. saw. Ergo, even if said ordinance wasn't used up while still on active duty, it quite likely would've been depleted in the time after, once they were on their own.

Think of the Highway Horde migrating through. Unlike Rick & Co., the National Guard couldn't very well make 4x as many people disappear...so that likely would've become a conflict-situation. Yet all of this is moot compared to the argument for basic story balance. The Governor had 10x more troops, a vehicle mounted .50 machinegun with TONS of ammo, and equivalent or superior military-grade weaponry and equipment with which to outfit his people. It was ALREADY a David Vs. Goliath matchup. With that ordinance in the mix its gone from David Vs. Goliath to Bambi Vs. Godzilla.

They did the whole desperate flight thing last season. Even if circumstances turn out such that they don't in fact get forced to flee this season, they decided that it would be better for the Governor's forces to have utterly indomitable fire superiority. Frankly, I'm TIRED of the protagonists never catching ONE TENTH the breaks Woodbury and the Governor receive non-stop. It makes an evil Mary-Sue of the Governor, and as such makes me completely stop caring about what the Governor or his people actually do, or how they do it....it's been so lopsided, so the Gov-has-all-cards for so long, that even a sudden turnaround and defeat of the Governor at this point would feel nearly as contrived as Woodbury's capabilities have been.

As I said before, I'm strongly leaning towards skipping this Season's finale and just watching it when they flood AMC with the previous season before the beginning of next season. For me at least there was just no saving this season. Even substantial improvements in interpersonal relationship interactions, overall atmosphere and a strong main-character death-sequence couldn't begin to salvage it for me. In my mind at least Season 3 is a waste, and the series would be better of retconning it into highlit necessary plot points, dispense with 95% of it, and just weld Season 2, plus say the first couple episodes of Season 3, straight on to the beginning of Season 4.

I haven't lost my faith in the series. Just the clusterf*ck that's been the Woodbury/Prison conflict. IMO they couldn't have failed worse, especially this season half, then if they'd set out with the stated goal of sabotaging the show. Moderate improvement in non-critical areas didn't save it for me, but it did give me a measure of hope that once they've finished slogging through this butchered story, there might be light at the end of the tunnel.

It just KILLS ME, that they have all the tools, the right cast, excellent settings, brilliant zombies, and they can't manage to make the main plotline enjoyable, because in each and every case where there was a possibility to shift direction and plough under a storyline that wasn't working, they instead chose to use yet another fiat-plot-device to perpetuate the worst elements and minimize the best. The Woodbury Vs. Team Prison conflict could have been AMAZING, gut-wrenching stuff...but they got too caught up in puffing up the Governor and wasting SO MUCH precious time on the boring-tastic endless flashovers to Woodbury.

It's ironic if the rumors are true. Mazzara TRIED to sabotage TWD, but the people charged with saving it from him were so ineffectual that it's very difficult to tell whether the sabotage ever stopped.

kidgloves

25-Mar-2013, 12:24 PM

Its taken all season but when the Gov shot Merle in the chest, and you could tell from the angle, it finally made me hate that SOB. That was just out of order.

facestabber

25-Mar-2013, 02:02 PM

Wylde David vs Goliath sells. Improbable odds. Rocky vs Apollo. Especially now that Rick stood up and dissolved the Ricktatorship. He is now even more loved. Realizing that he was acting in the Gov role for his group and stepping down. I agree with you that the deck does get rediculously stacked in Gov's favor. I think he just lost 8 men which is a sizeable percentage of his force and yet he will show no hardship by it and follow through with attack. I know where you are coming from but I just disagree about the item you speak of. It a great anti structure/vehicle stopping weapon but I can see the ammo being horded for strictly defensive and standoff capability. Sure it would clear crowds from an elevated position but there are more efficient weapons when fighting at or near the same level as unarmed, slow moving, full value targets. At some point military units that get cut off are not going to be offensively seeking and attacking hordes. Now that I think of it the .50 in downtown Atlanta that Rick went by still had a live belt fed so I'm sure there is some abandoned heavy hitters out there. The ammo they have may or may not get replenished so in real world scenario there would be alot of semi auto fire to remove threats to them and not the populace. And yes in TWD universe they will always go full auto because well it just friggin looks cooler. And you have to know some pyrotechnic guy needed to make a big bang in the finally ala barn burn. You should see the ammo I horde:) I think you should watch Wylde. My gut tells me team prison is going to be better prepared as we have been led to believe.

I really wish they would make the finally at minimum 1.5 hours. Not sure how they pack in all the plot lines going. Milton Andrea, Daryl separated and a war? To my liking they nailed the finale last season so I will keep the faith.

MinionZombie

25-Mar-2013, 05:55 PM

A spiffing episode - Nicotero's strongest as a Director, and another very fine piece of writing from Gimple - the show is indeed in very good hands.

Loved the Dawn reference, of course, and I was very pleased with the motel scene - that's how to stage a zombie attack that works. Michonne is tied up and weapon-free, Merle is hot-wiring a car that's making an awful racket (therefore he can't hear Michonne), and the zombies appear from rooms and around unexplored corners. That worked very well indeed for me ... and did anyone else wonder if Merle got bit during his encounter with the car attack walker? I thought so for a brief moment, but the way it went he wasn't by the looks of it.

A very strong episode that wraps up an entire arc for Merle, and he went through all the versions of himself, and ultimately - in spite of all his considerable flaws - you respected him at the end. I knew he was going to come back as a walker for Daryl to find when we didn't see him getting shot, but even still, the reveal packed a punch. Poor old Daryl... :(

Wyld - not watch the finale? Now you're just being totally ridiculous. You make zero sense to me, my friend. :lol:

So yeah - I was very pleased with this episode. It wrangled things back on-track after the issues of 3x14 - while this episode delays the battle, it does so for a very good reason, and we're giving something strong and meaningful in exchange. As I said last week, 3x13 and 3x14 could have been handled in one episode's worth with more efficient writing and a tighter structural organisation from right back when they were mapping out the episodes in the writer's room. Even still, 3x14 has been - for me - the only episode that legitimately disappointed, even thought I still liked numerous things about it.

Regarding the previews of next week's episode...
It looks like Team Prison let them walk right in, The Governor seems to have brought his strongest fighters (after suffering losses thanks to Merle) so the odds aren't too overwhelming (about 30 of them all-in roughly?) ... it also looks like they're readying themselves to leave the prison. They've packed up their stuff and loaded the vehicles.

Wow...

just... wow.

Is it a bad thing that I teared up at the end there?

It certainly landed strong, didn't it? Reedus did a fantastic job ... really felt for Daryl.

So who else spotted the Dawn reference?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_1fyRCFOhqM/UVCD77pVvJI/AAAAAAAABnc/AMRti1aQcSI/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_3_Meme_Dawn_of_the_Dead_Re ference_3x15_DeadShed.jpg

:)

After this episode I can see the show is in good hands next season. I loved it. Very emotional and who would have thought Merle's actions would have such an emotional impact. Great stuff. He was pretty badass up until his end too. Bravo. I caught the Dawn reference immediately too!

Very good hands, I'd say. Hurd mentioned that his style is in a similar vein to Darabont, in terms of characters etc, so that's a good thing. I still think Mazzara did a good job with season 3 over all, despite the pace & structural organisation of the back half slipping below par in certain episodes ... I really don't know what to think or feel about all the various rumours flying about regarding his departure, so best not to speculate and dream up possibilities.

Gimple though - yes - him and The Walking Dead seem to be a good mix. This episode and 3x12 were both fantastic episodes.

Yea so Rick wasnt going to go through with the Michonne handoff but at the slimest chance he would at that point I had went from certified Rick fanboy to completely done with him. Gray areas I understand but there are differences between right and wrong. Very disappointed in Daryl for not having the 'balls' to tell Rick to pound sand.

Motorhead in TWD.....hell to the yea. Lemmy seems like a Merle kind of guy. Speaking of Merle, gotta give credit to the writers for taking the last 10 minutes of an episode and taking Merle from a hated scumbag to an empathetic hero. In the end the good that was in him came forward. Im actually glad he went out like that. Happy to see him drop Ben. Sad to see a surprise Ninja zombie ruin more of his destruction.

Michonne, well I just love her more and more. Danai is playing the character wonderfully

Really bored of Glen anymore. I loved season 1 Glen but the love crap just doesnt work for me but whatever.

1) I was a tad confused, seeing as at the end of 3x13 Rick seemed to be sorted on not giving up Michonne because he knew The Governor would never let the matter be settled by giving up Michonne ... he seemed to have made up his mind there ... it would have worked a touch better (particularly in the context of this episode) if it had been a tad more vague ... or maybe I'm remembering that scene between him and Hershel differently? I certainly liked the moral evolution to Rick in this episode - from Ricktator willing to sacrifice one of their own (albeit a new member) for a dodgy chance at peace, to a leader of a democratic "we are the greater good" group.

2) Yes. Merle in the car drinking up was a great little bit. I enjoyed that very much. Did you also notice that Zombie Merle ate Ben? Double punishment for the little scrote, haha! :elol: Although I wouldn't agree so much on defining that walker as a "ninja" - he lead a bunch to that area, there were multiple entrances to that building, and with all the noise and action you wouldn't notice one creeping up on you all that easily.

3) Michonne is really rocking it. I chuckle at how hateful some folks on here were about her in the earlier episodes ... they went rather quiet after "Clear". :sneaky: I always knew they were growing Michonne on the show and that she'd come into her own - and here we are.

4) You heartless bastard. :lol:

Its taken all season but when the Gov shot Merle in the chest, and you could tell from the angle, it finally made me hate that SOB. That was just out of order.

I know, what a dickhead, right? :D

Doubly evil in that he disregarded his own rule about destroying the brain - the git shot Merle in the chest deliberately for added punishment. The make-up was pretty good on Zombie Merle too ... perhaps a teeny weeny touch too gone around the flesh around the eyes, but barely a whisker over ... it was important for him to look pretty close to how Daryl knows him to be. I loved the close up of the eyes - Nicotero insisted on that being in there - and it works beautifully, it hooks we viewers right into Daryl's emotional impact.

Oh yes - I've been up in the memes, of course: http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?20029-Get-out-of-here-Carl!!!!-The-TWD-memes-lols-thread&p=295885#post295885

...

A question:

How do you think Merle's death will affect Daryl?

Andy

25-Mar-2013, 06:03 PM

So here's a question..

Was merle supposed to be getting "phonecalls" aswell?

(in the kitchen he's hid the phone from daryl, then lifts it and puts it in his bag..)

JonOfTheShred

25-Mar-2013, 06:56 PM

Merle had his 2 fingers bit off, and Glen cut 2 fingers off that female walker for the ring. Daryl might see those fingers that Glen cut off on his way into the prison and assume they're Merle's

I was just rewatching the episode and signed in to make note of that. I thought it was cool how Glenns proposal and Merles redemption both involved the pinky and ring finger being removed, cool "juxtaposition" you could say. Didn't consider the possibility of Daryl seeing those fingers and thinking Rick set up Merle, but I don't think Daryl will believe in any 'conspiracy' against Merle for too long, considering Rick and him were sprinting around looking for the two before they left.

The cars alarm remains on, but at a dulled level - thought that was a nice touch. When Merle lets Michonne out, you can still hear the alarm very faintly. Was I the only person hoping Merle escaped? He's been one of my favorite characters since Season 1, and he was one of the toughest characters on the show. (It was rather irritating how easily the Governor seemed to take him down in a one-on-one conflict. Merle could have just shanked him with his knife hand.)

- - - Updated - - -

Someone earlier mentioned the show getting a boosted runtime for the finale....I totally agree with that. Should be 2 hours! If Mad Men gets a 2 hour premiere, why can't Walking Dead get a 2 hour season finale? They could wrap up this arc perfect in that amount of time, with an extremely tense, slow burn for the first 30 minutes leading to the fight for an hour and 15 and then 15 minutes of aftermath.

So here's a question..

Was merle supposed to be getting "phonecalls" aswell?

(in the kitchen he's hid the phone from daryl, then lifts it and puts it in his bag..)

He was using the phone for the wire to wrap Michonne with, cause she could "chew through the rope."

MinionZombie

25-Mar-2013, 07:11 PM

Regarding the telephone (in the generator room - not the kitchen :p) - yeah, I was thinking "wtf is up with that?" too, but I guess facestabber explained it well enough. Perhaps it was a weird little reference to earlier events...

As for the fingers - Glenn would toss those away within minutes/seconds of chopping them off ... plus they're female fingers that'll look nothing like they are on Merle ... and he'd probably be more consumed by the whole 'zombie brother' thing than seeing he's got two fingers off ... which I thought was a nice touch in the fight. It shows how nasty The Governor is, but it was also darkly comical, the poor bugger went out with two fingers, a thumb, and a knife in place of an entire hand. :p

Regarding runtime for a finale - yes, I'd very much like to see extended episodes for season premieres and finales - however Mad Men's premiere on April 7th is just two individual episodes back-to-back (like it was last year), and not an extended episode.

facestabber

25-Mar-2013, 07:12 PM

So here's a question..

Was merle supposed to be getting "phonecalls" aswell?

(in the kitchen he's hid the phone from daryl, then lifts it and puts it in his bag..)

Not sure if your joking but Merle wanted the wire cord from the phone to restrain Michonne.

I've been waiting for ya to respond minion. Good stuff.

****sorry didn't refresh page before responding to Andy. It was already answered

Legion2213

25-Mar-2013, 07:56 PM

Oh wow...what a killer episode!

Merle died like a fucking hero...and Daryls reaction to seeing him turned was gut wrenching stuff...can't believe we are down to the last episode now.

Other points...

DotD Zombie - Fuck yes!

Governor - Burn in Hell you bastard! Boy I hope he gets it something horrific next week!!!

Edit: Was it just me, or did Michonne have more dialogue this episode than she's had in the entire season previous? She did quite a bit of yakking for the strong, sullen silent type that we've come to know and love! :D

Harleydude666

25-Mar-2013, 07:57 PM

["As I said before, I'm strongly leaning towards skipping this Season's finale and just watching it when they flood AMC with the previous season before the beginning of next season. For me at least there was just no saving this season. Even substantial improvements in interpersonal relationship interactions, overall atmosphere and a strong main-character death-sequence couldn't begin to salvage it for me. In my mind at least Season 3 is a waste, and the series would be better of retconning it into highlit necessary plot points, dispense with 95% of it, and just weld Season 2, plus say the first couple episodes of Season 3, straight on to the beginning of Season 4."]

Umm, yeah, I'm gonna call bullsh**t on this. We all know and you know you're gonna watch it. Come on dude, who are you kidding. No one is too Kool to just blow off the finale. Funniest stuff I read today. You love this show and that's why you watched up until this point.

Andy

25-Mar-2013, 08:26 PM

Not sure if your joking but Merle wanted the wire cord from the phone to restrain Michonne.

I've been waiting for ya to respond minion. Good stuff.

****sorry didn't refresh page before responding to Andy. It was already answered

You know what... ignore me.. that didnt even register in my mind!

niiru

25-Mar-2013, 09:32 PM

Its taken all season but when the Gov shot Merle in the chest, and you could tell from the angle, it finally made me hate that SOB. That was just out of order.

Biting off his fingers and spitting them out was fine, but a shot to the chest was out of order?

kidgloves

25-Mar-2013, 09:54 PM

Biting off his fingers and spitting them out was fine, but a shot to the chest was out of order?

Yes. Pretty much.
Anything goes in a hand to hand fight(pun intended). A close friend of mine bit someones nose off in a fight to avoid a severe beating so biting someones fingers off does not make me hate someone. Going against your own policy out of spite and potentially condemning someone to walk the earth as a zombie for the rest of their days does, especially when you believe something of the person remains.

Staredge

25-Mar-2013, 10:39 PM

I was just watching the previews for next week, and something struck me.

As they roll into the prison......where are the walkers in the outer yard???

*edit by MZ* - Tagged that sentence 'cos Neil doesn't like to know anything about the next episode; he doesn't even watch the previews.

Trencher

25-Mar-2013, 11:37 PM

Right I guess I am in the minority here when I thought the Dawn of the dead zombie was a jump the shark moment. One of the lamest things in the walking dead up until now. Rick turning traitor on Michonne was lame and out of character, sure he flip flopped on it but it was extremely out of character. It seems to me that the writers want us to be one hundred percent sure that Shane would be a better leader than Rick the way they are making Rick out to be weak, irrational and an tremendous douche-bag. Merles redemption tour came out of almost nothing, him talking a bit to the people in the prison and bam! Suddenly he is meth-head Jesus? Give me a break. Merle always was a scumbag and just because the actor is awesome and the character is very entertaining, it does not mean he have to turn into a good guy. And Michonne turned into a pretty meek and cooperative prisoner there! It is almost like she was psychic and knew that he would let her go, or atleast she had read the script, the Michonne we have seen up until now would have fought tooth and nail trying to escape or atleast get both her and Merle killed before she got handed over to the Governor. But no, now all the characters in the show just do things that the authors thinks are cool with no rhyme or reason, and very little thought put into their previous characterization. Instead of letting the characters drive the story forward by creating a narrative that flows around what the characters do. The whole show feels more and more disjointed and it seems to me it is only going to get more like that. Gore for gores sake, stupid references, characters that does things that are "cool" rather than what makes sense.

sandrock74

25-Mar-2013, 11:54 PM

I was just watching the previews for next week, and something struck me.

As they roll into the prison......where are the walkers in the outer yard???

I'm going to say... Rick and the crew lured the zombies inside the prison and then took off. The Woodbury crew shows up, throws the doors open and unleash hell on themselves!

Just what I'm thinkin'.

shootemindehead

26-Mar-2013, 12:12 AM

Well, we're back up. After a couple of dodgy episodes, this one was pretty good.

Sorry to see Merle go. He brought a sense of unease to Team Prison that was quite tense. I was genuinely surprised to see him offed! Poor old Daryl. Stop crying, ya little bollocks and get your act together for next week.

Yeh...getting sick of Glenn now. He reminds me of guys that never had a bird and then manages to get one and then their life turns into an extension of hers. Grow some balls lad. I want the old Glenn back. but, I know what happens to him in the comics :eek:

Contrary to some here, I actually like Rick's story arc in Season 3, excluding the "I see dead people" shtick. His indecisiveness over the Machonne handover was handled well enough. Rick is tired of fighting, he's lost his missus, his kid is growing up too fast and he has a little baby now (that mightn't even be his!). He's wrecked and the biggest fight yet (with still no clear reason for it) is still on the cards and it could well mean the end of everyone. Any one of those kind of pressures alone would make anyone falter.

Agree too on a 90 min finale. In fact, I'd easily have a 90 min opener too.

And yes, next year will be feckin great, if 'Clear' and this episode are anything to go by.

kidgloves

26-Mar-2013, 12:27 AM

Merles redemption tour came out of almost nothing, him talking a bit to the people in the prison and bam! Suddenly he is meth-head Jesus?

Are you saying that you are shocked that Merle has suddenly become a druggie? Why would that surprise you? I'm confused. I was under the impression he was looking for anything that would "take him on a holiday". Doesn't have to be meth. Could be pot or alcohol that he found later. Its been well established he likes to do drugs.

rongravy

26-Mar-2013, 12:39 AM

Are you saying that you are shocked that Merle has suddenly become a druggie? Why would that surprise you? I'm confused. I was under the impression he was looking for anything that would "take him on a holiday". Doesn't have to be meth. Could be pot or alcohol that he found later. Its been well established he likes to do drugs.

I was hoping he'd find some crank, and then give Carol the old crankjerb. Somebody needs to knock the cobwebs off of that. Daryl ain't gonna do it...

Morto Vivente

26-Mar-2013, 01:47 AM

Rick turning traitor on Michonne was lame and out of character, sure he flip flopped on it but it was extremely out of character. It seems to me that the writers want us to be one hundred percent sure that Shane would be a better leader than Rick the way they are making Rick out to be weak, irrational and an tremendous douche-bag.

A season 2 Rick turning on Michonne would have been out of character, but a season 3 Rick; I have to disagree. The guy has gutted his best friend and his wife dies during pregnancy, only to be devoured by a greedy-bastard-walker. If that doesn't effect you what will ? Hanging onto your ideals may not be second nature after those experiences. Mistakes have been made in season 3, but if Rick hadn't embraced some degree of nihilism and just carried on as before it would have been extremely unrealistic. I had no problem with the moral ping-ponging over Michonne before he made the right choice, quite human. It would be interesting to see how Shane would have dealt with such a predicament ? Personally I don't think he'd even have waited for 2 days, with no Lori around he'd have gone right off the reservation long before.

Christopher Jon

26-Mar-2013, 07:08 AM

It just KILLS ME, that they have all the tools, the right cast, excellent settings, brilliant zombies, and they can't manage to make the main plotline enjoyable.

On that topic, we agree. The show is a wandering mess of mediocrity and greatness. All three seasons could have been cut down to three 2 hour movies.

Neil

26-Mar-2013, 09:03 AM

Wyldwraith

26-Mar-2013, 10:29 AM

If you want some MORE unreality,
Merle's knife-hand prosthetic was covered in dripping fresh Walker gore. All he would've had to do was NICK the Governor and it's game over, yet somehow, despite the knife-hand being pressed between the 2 men's chests in the clinch, plus the previous clashes, Merle couldn't get ONE cut in against a man basically armed with a fist and a pistol butt, whose depth perception is shit...which he SHOULDN'T be used to in a combat situation yet, this being his FIRST hand-to-hand fight since losing the eye...but the Governor ninja-evades every one of Merle's punches/slashes, dodge-counter attacks like something out of an arcade fighting game "CommmmBO-BREAKER!!! and THEN knocks him to the ground, quick as a snake has a foot on Merle's knife-hand arm, and its utterly the Governor's show from there.

Yet this is the guy that couldn't avoid being half-blinded by the crudest of improvised weapons, in a closest-quarters clinch with a woman 45% his weight? BULLSHIT. Fiat plot device #105,322
They could've even done something grim and dramatic...have it be the TINIEST of nicks, so the Infection takes FAR longer to go symptomatic, let alone fatal. It would've made him a FAR more dangerous enemy, since he'd know he literally has nothing to lose, and wouldn't care in the slightest (like he does anyways) about getting 100% of Woodbury killed pursuing his vendetta.

BUT, if the Governor was simply TOO Sacred-a-Cow, they should have had MARTINEZ fight Merle, and then have the Governor swoop in while Merle's back was turned focused on Martinez and pistol-whip him at the base of the skull to incapacitate him, haul him to his feet and THEN play out the shoot Merle in the chest sequence...but instead of the lame "I'm not going to beg you?" Merle could've said something COOL like "Hey Martinez, check your right side. Left ya a little somethin to remember me by" BOOM ::Gov shoots him:: Then have Martinez pull up his shirt and find like a half-inch shallow cut, with his shirt smeared with coagulated Walker blood off Merle's knife-hand.

Because as it stands, with Merle only having killed nobodies and Ben...not only will the killing of what REMAINED of the Governor's real killers (minus Martinez) not be shown to hamper the Governor in any way, but Ben's death will a) Turn Allen from an evil amoral opportunist willing to do the dirtiest deeds for food and board, to a full-on revenge-obsessed psycho the Governor could use....if not give Tyreese and Sasha doubts about whether or not there might be some justification in the Gov's war with the "Crazy cowboy and his people."

Team Prison has lost TONS of people. Woodbury has lost a few faceless nobodies that are even more devalued by the fact that no matter that ELEVEN Woodbury folk have died since Milton made up his list of "37 fighters, all told" (not counting Ben, because Tyreese/Sasha and Allen/Ben hadn't shown up in Woodbury at that point. Yet Milton was also counting Andrea, so that's 12 gone. Do you think the finale will play out with the Governor, Martinez, no psycho goon squad because ALL OF THEM have been accounted for, aside from the brunette on the wall with the assault rifle, and 25 Woodbury civilians?

That's the PRECISE count. Anyone taking bets that Martinez/The Governor will STILL have a knot of 3-5 cool-as-cucumber, perfect soldier-followers in their immediate entourage, plus 30 or more Civilians? And this is a zombie apocalypse. Live people are hyper-scarce, so how many people are left alive in X group is NOT a nitpick, anymore than Bruce Willis shrinking by 3 feet between one Die Hard scene and the next would be a nitpick. Body counts are the concrete foundation on what attrition-centric zombie apocalypse stories are built. Devaluing "enemy" casualties devalues death overall in the series, and makes even more of an evil Mary Sue of the Gov and Co. Or the Nega-Mary Sue if you prefer ;)

MinionZombie

26-Mar-2013, 10:51 AM

Why was Merle shooting people left right and center clearly exposing the fact he was there? Why not just wait for a single clean shot of the Governor and go?

And now the Governor is some hand to hand fighting bad ass?

Enjoyable episode, but it does feel like the last 3-4 episodes have been 2-3 stretched out!

ps: Was dead Merle suppose to look like Bub?

Merle was thinning the herd a bit, as well as trying to take out The Governor - but that bastard Ben had to keep being a bugger up right until the end.

The Governor has nothing to lose - he's an extremely dangerous man - there's fighting well, and there's fighting dirty. The Governor is the latter - plus Merle had taken a beating from two other men before The Governor took him on.

Speaking generally, it would be really daft to kill off the big bad guy in the penultimate episode, especially when this episode is all about Merle's final hours and his last minute redemption.

Neil - aye, as I've said last week and again further down this thread, in the last few episodes there does seem to have been an episode's worth of stuff that could have been trimmed out/shown more efficiently with some re-jigging of the structure of the entire back half at a writer's room planning stage ... and yet it hasn't diminished the quality of the majority of the episodes, the slackening of the pace is mostly confined to 3x13 and 3x14 ... 3x15 still isn't the final battle, but there's loads of content and reason for that delay, so it feels earned ... 3x14 on the other hand was an awkwardly paced (and placed, in the overall structuring of the back half) episode, even if it did have numerous cool things in it (that could have been repurposed elsewhere).

Neil

26-Mar-2013, 11:11 AM

BUT, if the Governor was simply TOO Sacred-a-Cow, they should have had MARTINEZ fight Merle,
The Governor should have shot him in the leg, and on every attempt by Merle to lunge or attack, shoot him again in the left/arm etc. Think Clarence in Robocop! That would seem to have been more in keeping IMHO...

MinionZombie

26-Mar-2013, 11:22 AM

The Governor should have shot him in the leg, and on every attempt by Merle to lunge or attack, shoot him again in the left/arm etc. Think Clarence in Robocop! That would seem to have been more in keeping IMHO...

You sick bastard, Neil. :lol:

facestabber

26-Mar-2013, 04:21 PM

Why was Merle shooting people left right and center clearly exposing the fact he was there? Why not just wait for a single clean shot of the Governor and go?

And now the Governor is some hand to hand fighting bad ass?

Enjoyable episode, but it does feel like the last 3-4 episodes have been 2-3 stretched out!

ps: Was dead Merle suppose to look like Bub?

I have to give Merle full credit for a damn good plan. Draws the dead in forcing militia to engage allowing him to fire off shots without immediate counter fire back at him. No doubt if the Gov presented himself in the open he would have been Merle's first target. Killing the head of the snake in this case would more than likely cause a stand down but he had to take advantage and start sending rounds down range while the militia were shooting. And taking out 8 men is a huge boost to team prison. Well I know Wylde can comment on the actual effect of the boost. All in all Merle was a jerk. What he did to Glen was beyond horrible. Inexcusable. But I was glad to see him go out the way he did. Actually felt sad for the guy so I credit the writers for my mental switch.

I was troubled with the Gov's dominating fight with Merle. Michonne is no slouch but she beat the Gov's ass. I realize Merle was getting head stomped prior but the scene still pissed me off. Would have like to have seen the Gov be in a little trouble.

To Wylde regarding Merles exit. I loved the dialog you came up with and agree that would have been cooler way to go. But I wonder, after watching "Guts", when Merle was talking to himself in a state of delirium(handcuffed on roof) he snaps to and starts begging to God for help. But quickly he changes and says to the effect "I'm not begging you. I have never begged you". Not sure if the writers intentionally did that but Im just throwing it out there.

Ragnarr

26-Mar-2013, 04:50 PM

Merle had a good plan, but shouldn't have attempted it solo. The deception and misdirection was awesome especially with the head banging metal music blasting. Once the Governor's guys determined Merle's position, that's when the being alone factor became the booger it was. Excellent episode though and I'm annoyed that there's only one episode left to this season. Thank gawd Game of Thrones will be starting season 3 now. Thar be undead attacking thar too arrrr!
:D

Wyldwraith

26-Mar-2013, 06:18 PM

My entire point was this,
Given that the TWD writers are clearly incapable of arithmetic, the only way Merle's one man show was going to have ANY effect, beyond getting himself dead and Daryl messed up emotionally (not even dignifying their attempt to make the Gov look even badder ass with an opinion) was to kill a non-red shirt. By now anyone who has been watching the show knows that a bullet fired center mass or into the head of a Woodbury resident may as well not have happened if that bullet didn't strike someone who's been definitively named, with 3+ camera close-ups.

Put it in a larger perspective. Since Milton's headcount of "those capable of fighting" (once the Governor forced him to include young teens and the semi-elderly) (37), There have been eleven deaths in some form of combat with members of Team Prison, 2 killed by Walkers that got in after Team Prison rescued Glenn/Maggie, Counts varying from the five I saw Merle take to the eight that Michael Rooker claimed Merle got on Talking Dead (between shooting and Walkers he lead there getting others)...plus Merle was betrayed by the Governor/defected/now killed, plus Andrea attempting escape, now prisoner in the torture room.

That's TWENTY (minimum if we go by what could be viewer-seen as of last episode), or TWENTY-THREE (going by Michael Rooker's statements regarding Merle's kills in that episode) of Woodbury folk. Yes, Ben bumped that number from 37 to 38, and Tyreese/Sasha/Allen bump it up to 41, but that would be 41 - 20 or 23 = 21 or 18. The Governor's forces have been HALVED, yet come each and every Woodbury crowd scene, the crowds are just as large as they were the day Andrea and Michonne were brought in...but what's far more frustrating is that each time the Governor is featured in the field with Martinez as his right-hand-man you ALSO see the SAME configuration of 3-6 cool-as-cucumber killers supporting them.

More precise even: Each and every one of the men, excepting the Governor and Martinez themselves, who ambushed the National Guard convoy are DEAD. PLUS A DOZEN MORE!

So as not to be contentious I'll simply ask you good people: Exactly how many people from Woodbury need to die before making a visible impact on the Gov's paramilitary ops?

Red shirts are a tried and true TV convention, no argument there. Yet take the show that gave us the term itself. a) The red-shirts were being pulled from a force 5-6 dozen strong, out of a crew of 400+, b) In the bloodiest Star Trek episode ever, there wasn't more than 5 red-shirt deaths. c) Star Trek was not a zombie apocalypse, and every time Kirk gave a different "Captain's Log: Stardate Blah-Blah-Blah" he was creating the temporal explanation. They could've gotten replacements at any of several starbases. Which makes the following obvious d)The setting of the show provided reasonable off-screen explanation for the renewal of the red-shirts ranks.

The same cannot be said of TWD/Woodbury. In the last half-dozen episodes (which I realize was less than a week their time), between both factions we saw TWO new live humans, and one of those was dead within an hour of seeing him. I've heard people here defend to their last internet breath that TWD is a serious drama. No argument from me. Yet if that's the case, that drama is built on thematic concepts, plot continuity, intricate characterization/interpersonal relationships and conflicts. In an attrition-centric setting, with a HUGE theme of Human Actions/Decisions/Moral stands being what separates the living from the undead, death itself is a major thematic element. When it's trivialized by, say, granting Woodbury a redshirt pool that would make Shatner cringe, it diminishes the finality, omnipresence and most importantly, the IMPACT of death.

Death has to be more than the mechanism by which name-brand characters leave the show, or eventually TWD will become camp simply by people making jokes like "Man, I didn't think the zombie apocalypse would be so damned crowded!" Think back to Rick's confused and lonely walk from the hospital, until he got brained by Morgan's kid Dwayne. The sheer sense of Absence was powerful. Yet if that deserted feeling only applies to one-off scenes the characters are passing through, and has no meaningful impact on something as huge as a sociopathic one-eyed man's quest to kill you all....the show is the ultimate loser. Sure, in short-term convenience its exactly that, convenient/highly expedient...requiring no depth of thought in wrestling with the consequences of events as tragic and stupid as humans, even when winnowed down to .1% of their previous population over the span of a YEAR, are STILL killing each other with abandon for reasons as stupid and trivial as the motives for killings often are in our real world....then long-term the atmosphere of Choice, Consequence, Living With the Aftermath withers to a shadow of itself.

It's EASY to build a ghost-town set. An achievement would be the writers showing me first, the Governor's frustrations that what he sees as a piddling group of non-entities to plough under have caused him so much hassle, THEN show me the master manipulator sliding back into his slick-as-the-serpent-in-the-Garden manipulator-mode to USE those deaths, more and more as the casualties mount, to whip the Woodburyites into a mob howling for blood, with no thought to consequence in pursuing their bloodlust. THAT would be real, THAT would be evil......that would be drama.

But no, easier to just negate the bodies that fall, right?

Legion2213

26-Mar-2013, 06:46 PM

MinionZombie

26-Mar-2013, 07:24 PM

He was popping people off using their own gunfire as cover, they didn't realise they were being attacked by human aggresssors for some time IMO. The Gov claims he took down 8 people...they only had 35 or so at last count (who could wield weapons).

Merle just butchered nearly a quater of the Gov's "army" in 2 minutes.

Aye, 8 dead Woodburyites is a good tally - plus thematically it made sense for it to be a solo effort on Merle's part. As Rooker explained it, it was like a soldier storming a beach in WW2 - you might not be thinking you're going in to die, he's just got his game face on and he's got a job he has to do. Merle's job, which he decided on in the car with Michonne, was that he had to try and take down The Governor - at the very least thin out the herd.

Merle knows he's a f*ck up and his actions have forced him to be an outsider everywhere he goes - at least this way he can be of some use and he can do something right - it was a personal journey for him for the entire episode and it was his conclusion that he had to approach alone. It was a sudden realisation, so it's not thought-out in advance (ergo no back up), and with a ticking clock (the handover was for Noon, after which point the Woodbury gathering would piss off home again), so it was now or never to attempt it.

Also, as the Tesco slogan goes - "every little helps" - 8 less gun men (and no more of that twat Ben :elol:) is a very handy whittling down of The Governor's forces. Team Prison are still outnumbered, but it's a bloody big help regardless.

...

Just thinking about the scene where Daryl is pushing away undead Merle - Reedus did a wonderful performance - the body language as well. It was like his inner child made flesh, a mix of terror and grief, like 'get away, this is too much to deal with!' ... ... a wonderful performance from Reedus (and Rooker too - it was his episode, after all - he turned a bastard into a hero)!

Legion2213

26-Mar-2013, 07:38 PM

All good words MZ, especially adout Reedus, it really was a powerfull performance, and you are spot on, he really did become a child...absolutely brilliant.

As for Merle, he died well, you could see that being at the prison was getting under his skin, his little chats Daryl, Carol, Herschel, Rick and Michonne all seemed to prove to him that he really wasn't one of them...I think Michonne was the straw that broke the camels back though...telling him was always going to be somebodys garbage man really seemed to strike home with him. It's like he decided he was going to deal with his own trash for once...and do something of his own voilition instead of following somebodys orders.

Edit: Carol rattled him as well...he saw people changing and growing all around him while he seemed to be absolutely stuck with who he was...must have sucked for him.

Anyway, I'll raise a toast to the man this weekend...it was a great episode, and I wouldn't have guessed that a "Merle episode" would be so damn good.

facestabber

26-Mar-2013, 07:40 PM

...

Just thinking about the scene where Daryl is pushing away undead Merle - Reedus did a wonderful performance - the body language as well. It was like his inner child made flesh, a mix of terror and grief, like 'get away, this is too much to deal with!' ... ... a wonderful performance from Reedus (and Rooker too - it was his episode, after all - he turned a bastard into a hero)!

He certainly did nail it. Reedus is as cool a guy as you get too. I first met him in Boston right after episode 2 or 3 season 1. Lucked out staying in same hotel. Bought shots of Irish back and forth. Talked about Boondock Saints but ofcourse the new hit TWD. He spoiled some stuff and said they never find Merle which I thought was cool. I showed him Max Brooks zombie survival guide and he got a good laugh out of it and signed it for me. As much as I like him as Murphy in the Saints I told him to stick with TWD as long as he can. But just a good guy all around. Couldnt be more friendly to fans. If any of you ever meet him take him a bottle of Jameson and he will gladly accept it. Cigarettes too but I cant remember what brand.

AcesandEights

26-Mar-2013, 08:02 PM

I too feel this was a very solid episode, especially considering the narrative corner the writers have painted themselves into for the remainder of the season with the track of the last half of this season.

Action? Check
Zombies? Check
Drama? Check
Major Character going out in style? Check

A lot of good things ticked off the list and not too much in the way of bad, though all of this crap with Rick from the tail end of last episode forward was a bit out of left field and clumsily handled.

For the record: I think they killed the wrong Dixon brother, but whatever :) It's not even that I liked Merle, though he did add some suitably uncomfortable moments, but Daryll is a sacred calf in need of slaughtering.

Neil

26-Mar-2013, 08:54 PM

Morto Vivente

26-Mar-2013, 11:25 PM

Just thinking about the scene where Daryl is pushing away undead Merle - Reedus did a wonderful performance - the body language as well. It was like his inner child made flesh, a mix of terror and grief, like 'get away, this is too much to deal with!' ... ... a wonderful performance from Reedus (and Rooker too - it was his episode, after all - he turned a bastard into a hero)!

Yeah ! Fantastic performances by Reedus and Rooker. Good point MZ about Daryl's reaction to Merle-Z. IMO the scene was a great conclusion to an earlier sequence in the season, where Daryl confronts Merle about running out on him as a kid. The best death/reanimation scene so far.

MinionZombie

27-Mar-2013, 11:12 AM

Aces - just killing off Daryl for the sake of killing him off (or getting shot of him just because you don't like him :p) wouldn't be the way to go at all. Like with Merle, you need a storyline worthy of taking that sort of action - it would have to really mean something, and be the full stop at the end of a really in-depth and rewarding arc across a season. As it is, there's so much more that can be done with Daryl still to do.

Neil - nah, I didn't think he looked like Bub at all. Why do you think so?

Neil

27-Mar-2013, 11:36 AM

Neil - nah, I didn't think he looked like Bub at all. Why do you think so?
Don't know... Just fired off in my head as similar....

http://www.totalsportsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/walking-dead-merle-zombie-GIF.gifhttp://www.nefariousfilms.com/Images/Monsters/bub.jpg

AcesandEights

27-Mar-2013, 01:25 PM

Aces - just killing off Daryl for the sake of killing him off (or getting shot of him just because you don't like him :p) wouldn't be the way to go at all. Like with Merle, you need a storyline worthy of taking that sort of action - it would have to really mean something

So that every death of any major character has to be foreshadowed into the ground and the only people who can be killed off in a surprising manner are underdeveloped types? Sounds lame, predictable and milk-toast safe, to me.

No thanks.

Andy

27-Mar-2013, 02:40 PM

So that every death of any major character has to be foreshadowed into the ground and the only people who can be killed off in a surprising manner are underdeveloped types? Sounds lame, predictable and milk-toast safe, to me.

No thanks.

I Agree with aces, thats not the walking dead way. The philosophy is supposed to be that nobody is "safe".

MinionZombie

27-Mar-2013, 05:22 PM

I Agree with aces, thats not the walking dead way. The philosophy is supposed to be that nobody is "safe".

When did I say he was "safe"? :rolleyes:

What I'm saying is it'd be lame-as-balls for Daryl to just be snuffed out hap-hazardly just as something to do. If Merle had just been capped in the start of 3x09 by The Governor or something, then a whole shit-load of good stuff would have been missed - not-to-mention half of his entire character arc this season. A death has to have meaning and come at the right time for major characters - even for lesser characters - I never said he was "safe", you're just reading what you want to believe I said you lazy so-and-sos (:D), what I'm saying is, well, just what I said below - his death should come at the appropriate time as part of a far larger arc and storyline, and there's so much more to be done with his character as it is - the time isn't right for such a move yet.

AcesandEights

27-Mar-2013, 05:30 PM

his death should come at the appropriate time as part of a far larger arc and storyline, and there's so much more to be done with his character as it is...

No there isn't :) The only thing that comes to mind for his character after coping with his brother's death (or not, and having it lead to his death, which'd be fine, too), is for Daryl to come out of the closet.

Other than that, Daryl's death, sans the overly schmatlzy melodrama, could actually serve to do something important, like once again underline how the characters live in a world that is dangerous in a way other than when it happens to be convenient for the plot.

Andy

27-Mar-2013, 05:31 PM

I understand what your saying but i still disagree, you think his death has to have some meaningful point or be some big story changing event.. we are saying.. why does it? thats not the walking dead way.

You've read the comics, you know that if daryl just walked out of prison and was bit straight away with no build up or serious aftermath, it wouldnt be the first time the fans have been slapped in the face :p

AcesandEights

27-Mar-2013, 05:32 PM

Thats not the walking dead way.

I like that, Andy :)

MinionZombie

27-Mar-2013, 06:46 PM

AcesandEights

27-Mar-2013, 07:09 PM

No right-minded screenwriter would ever kill off a major character with the equivalent of a random ACME anvil dropping on them for no good reason.

Well certainly no (overly)commercial, paint-by-numbers writer would want to disappoint all those Daryl fans :confused:

There doesn't have to be shedloads of exposition, clumsy foreshadowing and a telling build-up for a character to have a meaningful death, and thinking that there should be is further falling into overly-contrived formulaic TVland.

Particularly as Daryl is so keenly aware of his surroundings...

Jeez, MZ...I bet you know his favorite color, too! :p

Andy

27-Mar-2013, 07:20 PM

There's always a reason for something to happen. Axel was shot-down mid-laugh because someone had to die as a result of the attack on Woodbury (incidentally, doing so stopped a whole range of possibilities for that character - in an interview Lew Temple said they were layering in little possibilities, various lies told etc, but they never got a chance to do any of that as he was snuffed out) - there was no heroism or moment afforded to his death (just like some characters in the comic), but Daryl is such a large part of the show it'd be a cheap shot - and frankly, a poorly written one - to just randomly snuff him out.

Particularly as Daryl is so keenly aware of his surroundings ... and I think we're well aware of the dangers this world poses ... it's kinda part of the whole point of the show. :sneaky::p

The "Walking Dead way" is still there - douchebag Ben got in the way of a bullet and dropped like a sack of shit (and then got munched :elol:). I still strongly maintain that just snuffing a major character in a half-assed "oh whoops" click-of-the-fingers kind of way would be lazy, closed-door writing. Merle's demise was so much more satisfying because he had an entire season arc, and particularly in this episode he went through a variety of versions of himself and came to an important realisation (not-to-mention his death providing a helping hand and a crushing blow all at the same time) ... T-Dog's death was sudden, but he went out swinging ... Lori's death was an extremely important event ... Dale's death was a loss of innocence for Carl, and a loss of soul for the group ... Otis' death was sharp and sudden and ghastly, but again it provided a huge wealth of meaning.

No right-minded screenwriter would ever kill off a major character with the equivalent of a random ACME anvil dropping on them for no good reason.

I Still dont agree, why would it be such bad writing to simply have him die with no major build up?

Thats what happens in life, it dosnt matter who you are you could die at any moment and thats the way the source material is written. Dosnt matter how well aware, we all have off moments and let our guard down... especially when we are traumatized becuase oh i dont know... my brother has just died! ;)

Now in practice, your probably right they wouldnt kill off a major character without it being some epic part of the story but i would go as far to say that would be lazy writing and turning the walking dead into a typical hollywood TV series.

It would be better in my opinion to have people die randomly, it would be more realistic and truer to the source.

did you really see glenn's death coming? really?... i bet you where suprised. There was no major build up, he had been a key player from volume 1 and he was killed out of the blue.

What your describing MZ is correct for TV... but frankly its not correct for the walking dead.

MinionZombie

27-Mar-2013, 07:28 PM

It's simply about good writing, and not in the least bit pandering to those freakshows who send death threats to Laurie Holden because her character grazed Daryl with a bullet more than a year ago, and well, see my previous post for my view on quality writing in regards to a potential end for Daryl - and other characters we've seen.

And Daryl is keenly aware of his surroundings - this is a dude who is a skilled tracker, hunter, and survivalist - it's a straight-forward reading of one part of the character's modus operandi. :rolleyes: Just having him blunder into a set of undead chompers would actually be clumsy, paint-by-numbers writing, as well as totally lazy. It would have to be a scenario that actually made sense.

There doesn't have to be shedloads of exposition, clumsy foreshadowing and a telling build-up for a character to have a meaningful death, and thinking that there should be is further falling into overly-contrived formulaic TVland.

:confused:

I don't know what TV show you're watching, but it ain't the same one as what I'm watching. Merle's season arc was handled beautifully. :cool:

http://picardfacepalm.com/updown.gif

If y'all ain't gonna bother reading what I'm actually writing, then what's the point?

:rolleyes:

*sigh*

I'm done with this topic...

Onto something else...

WTF was up with that plank with a bit of razor wire on it? I know it's supposed to be for bursting tyres, but one of them stuffed into the grass (and not on the ruddy driveway) is going to do piss-all. :p Did anyone see any other such contraptions in the field? I didn't notice any personally ... seemed a bit pointless, that. If you're going to have traps and obstacles, we need to see something more, not just one random thing.

Legion2213

27-Mar-2013, 08:54 PM

Onto something else...

WTF was up with that plank with a bit of razor wire on it? I know it's supposed to be for bursting tyres, but one of them stuffed into the grass (and not on the ruddy driveway) is going to do piss-all. :p Did anyone see any other such contraptions in the field? I didn't notice any personally ... seemed a bit pointless, that. If you're going to have traps and obstacles, we need to see something more, not just one random thing.

Maybe it's to simply show us they are constructing defences (plural)...it just shows a bit of prep, you can read into it that they are making lots of little nasty surprises for the bad guys to stumble into. :)

(Pretty sure there were petrol bombs in view as well)

MinionZombie

28-Mar-2013, 10:55 AM

Maybe it's to simply show us they are constructing defences (plural)...it just shows a bit of prep, you can read into it that they are making lots of little nasty surprises for the bad guys to stumble into. :)

(Pretty sure there were petrol bombs in view as well)

Aye I suppose ... it just seemed a little random how it was covered - all that fuss getting the walkers over to the other fence, then yomping over to drop one farty little tyre obstacle. :p If there were a whole bunch in the shot (I don't recall seeing any others) then that would have been a good teeny weeny tweak there.

Petrol Bombs - aye, Glenn was making some in the courtyard.

darth los

28-Mar-2013, 11:08 AM

I noticed it right off! I had to pause the show, go over to the bookcase, get the figure from the shelf, and bring it back to the couch and show her how exact the reference was.

1225

This one appears when merle is in the car having a drink before he goes quick-scoping

After this episode I can see the show is in good hands next season. I loved it. Very emotional and who would have thought Merle's actions would have such an emotional impact. Great stuff. He was pretty badass up until his end too. Bravo. I caught the Dawn reference immediately too!

I caught the Dawn reference and excitedly told everyone about it. LOL! Not that anyone was impressed by my picking up on it...

Like you gentleman i immediately caught on as well.....Lemme tell you sandrock, I was hopping up and down like dawn of the dead! Dawn of the dead! :hyper:

I had the same reaction to the first episode of the season when in the midst of clearing the prison we see officers in riot gear and i was immediately like, Left for dead 2!!!!!!!

But yeah, don't expect mere mortals to get those references. They aren't cool like us. :thumbsup:

Oh and it's good to see you all again.....

:cool:

babomb

28-Mar-2013, 08:41 PM

I Still dont agree, why would it be such bad writing to simply have him die with no major build up?

Thats what happens in life, it dosnt matter who you are you could die at any moment and thats the way the source material is written. Dosnt matter how well aware, we all have off moments and let our guard down... especially when we are traumatized becuase oh i dont know... my brother has just died! ;)

Now in practice, your probably right they wouldnt kill off a major character without it being some epic part of the story but i would go as far to say that would be lazy writing and turning the walking dead into a typical hollywood TV series.

It would be better in my opinion to have people die randomly, it would be more realistic and truer to the source.

did you really see glenn's death coming? really?... i bet you where suprised. There was no major build up, he had been a key player from volume 1 and he was killed out of the blue.

What your describing MZ is correct for TV... but frankly its not correct for the walking dead.
Agree!!!!! Every major character death being a large, overly dramatic and built up event is too soap opera-ish. That's no doubt how things will be for the most part, but i much prefer a true sense of realism over hollywood style dramatics in a show like this.
It's overall the basis of my dissatisfaction with the writing of this season. With the season premiere I thought that was the direction we could expect.

Morto Vivente

28-Mar-2013, 09:58 PM

facestabber

28-Mar-2013, 11:22 PM

IMO, if the demise of every single major character is preceded by an overly dramatic arc, then the result would be extremely ponderous. But on the other hand, if every death was sudden and relied on the element of surprise to create the drama e.g. the death of T-Dog, then the effect would soon ware off and become pedestrian. Excessive use of shock tactics doesn't have any longevity. IMO, an engaging balance between both approaches would be the right way to go. But it's obviously impossible to meet everybody's expectations.

The epic-arc approach is a lot older than Hollywood Cinema by several thousand years. I'm sure you'll agree that it's their misuse of it, and superficial treatment which cheapen's it. When it's done right the result is The Empire Strikes Back,:D, as opposed to Star Trek V, :bored:, or.... I can hardly bring myself to type it; Titanic. :barf:

Well said. While I dont think there is time to have entire episodes dedicated to non stop drama for each major characters death, would people on here be happy if Glen slipped and fell off the guard tower to his death. What if he was goofing around on the railing and bam, fell and died? Because that is real. Heck a co-worker of mine was recently run over and killed by a semi on the interstate. Not a fierce gun battle or in the middle of an act of heroism. Just real death. Main characters are going to die but people become attached to them. Many of us are invested in the people and this epic story. Heck I even miss Shane and I was never a huge supporter. This is TV, not real life. I understand peoples fear of a soap opera feel if they go over the top but in the mean time we like to see our characters go out with some story. Axel's death was fine by me because the abruptness and violence of it fit the scene. And fit his character at this point in the story. But if that was Rick's melon getting drilled like that the viewers would take up arms.

As many nitpicks as I may air, I realize the absolute epic nature of what this show is. The seasons in their entirety tell really damn good stories.

I may be off with this analogy but take the WWE(or WWF as I knew it as a kid). I personally cant stand it but the following it has is tremendous. Why? The results can be manufactured. Hero's can reign and fall when and where they decide. Compare it to MMA or UFC as the generic term. It has grown tremendously. But the results cant be manufactured. The peoples favorite champ can't stay on top unless he wins. So the UFC will never grow ,and in my opinion has started to level off, to the empire that the WWE is. What I am saying is if you take TWD, which people are emotionally attached to, and just start dropping the main characters quickly and without story because thats 'real'....well TWD will fade fast and thats a wrap folks. TWD is tv and entertainment like the WWE so things can be tweaked and will be tweaked based on ratings and fanbase. Now if Daryl grows wings and starts flying because his fanbase demands I too will vomit:)

MinionZombie

29-Mar-2013, 10:44 AM

Well said Morto and Facestabber - I was starting to think my pretty simple and justified observation/comment was falling on deaf ears.

Harleydude666

29-Mar-2013, 02:07 PM

ok, look at it this way. Ever see "To Live and Die in La"? when William Peterson's character suddenly gets snuffed out? It was BRILLIANT! and it was shocking all the same. Kept you thinking well after the movie was over. Or the "Departed" when Leo all of a sudden gets it. (I felt the Leo death ripped off Peterson's IMHO) but anyway TWD can afford to pull a few deaths off in that vein and style and still work. Maybe not deal with the aftermath at that moment but have the characters in another scene reflect and mourn that character. Otherwise yes, these over dramatic deaths for every character just gets too routine and too predictable all the time.

MinionZombie

29-Mar-2013, 05:24 PM

Harley - Leo's death in The Departed comes in the closing minutes of a pretty long movie, and at the natural conclusion to his story as part of the remainder of the story involving Matt Damon's character - there is meaning there, and a build up to that for the entire film. The moment is shocking, but the moment is entirely earned and justified, not-to-mention an important event in the grand scheme of things.

What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees.

The death doesn't have to be a drawn out moment full of weeping choristers and swelling strings, but just chucking one in at random is piss-weak. Whatever death for whoever it is, it has to make some semblance of sense - either in the grand scheme of things, or for the character, or for that very moment they're existing in.

...

...

...

Goddamn it, you motherfuckers dragged me back into this topic of discussion again ... right ... I'm leaving this line of enquiry for a second time. :sneaky:

AcesandEights

29-Mar-2013, 05:56 PM

What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees.
Now who is taking things out of context :)

Goddamn it, you motherfuckers dragged me back into this topic of discussion again ... right ... I'm leaving this line of enquiry for a second time. :sneaky:

So you're conceding defeat twice...in one thread?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/maniacal-laughter_zps0cd4e440.jpg

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Just kidding, MZ. Honestly, though, you can criticize something you like...the TWD gestapo will not come and get you if you find fault when it wanders too heavily into the predictably formulaic or when they slip up with their presentation. I know you like the show, but TWD will still let you watch it if you're honest about its faults.

MinionZombie

29-Mar-2013, 07:48 PM

"Defeat"? No - boredom with the topic, in actuality. Unfortunately my desire to be understood outweighs my hatred of going round in bloody circles. :skull:

The essence is, Axel's death worked well, and Merle's death worked well ... the main point is, I firmly believe (for exhaustively written reasons), that Daryl's eventual demise would be best-suited to the latter pacing than the former. When you've watched a character for a long time and seen their lives play out on-screen, their personalities changing, the viewer deserves something more than clumsily getting bitten because they dim-witted their way into awaiting chompers, or got a pot-luck shot to the brain from a bad guy.

MAJOR COMIC SPOILER - REGARDING ISSUE 100 OF THE COMIC:
Issue 100 required a major original character to die. Glenn's pick by 'eeny meeny miny moe' was to illustrate the arbitrary viciousness of the new big bad guy. Glenn's death also came at the dramatic end point of his story - he's been through a huge arc and a huge variety of changes - he was going to leave the group and set up house with Maggie and that was going to be that, which doesn't provide much storytelling opportunities, therefore the time was right for him to be written out.

His death is also loaded with meaning and has a huge impact on all the characters.

Axel took a random bullet to the brain in the comic, and a sudden bullet in the show, but he was never a huge character in either - ergo an audience will accept a more click-of-the-fingers death.

It seems to me that Aces and Andy are saying that Axel's style of death would fit Daryl's eventual demise. That's what you're saying, correct? I don't agree (and I've extensively explained my position - hence why I'm bored of going over it again and again). If that's not what you're saying, then what the fuck are we talking about? :confused::lol::confused:

...

If you read my posts a tad closer, you'd see I actually do level criticisms at TWD, I just don't make mountains out of what I firmly believe to be molehills (again, extensively reasoned).

For example, just quickly off the top of my head:

1) 3x05's script was too lengthy, therefore numerous scenes had to be cut, which meant the emotional shovel-work required to rebalance the viewer after the shocking events of 3x04 was not as full as it should have been.

2) 3x14 is the weakest episode of season 3. While I enjoy all TWD episodes - it is true that I'm a huge fan of the show, indeed it's my favourite show - and there were numerous things in 3x14 that I enjoyed, the overall structure of the back-half needed work at the writer's room stage to make for better pacing for all of the episodes in the back half, not just some of them.

3) The timeframe of the episodes needs extending - the front-half of season 2 is one week, and likewise season 3 is over a rather brief timeframe (decidedly briefer than the week-to-week viewing schedule we folks get when watching it). I'm not saying each episode needs to have a week's space in the timeframe, but seven days worth of story spread out over seven weeks (front half of season 2) meant that it doesn't play as well week-to-week as it does in marathon sessions. In short - a balance between the two would be ideal.

4) I am a supporter of Andrea, vociferously so, but even for me her story arc has tested my patience. I like the overall thrust of her season arc, but a few relatively minor shifts, movements, tweaks, and polishes could have better set the agenda.

5) The front-half of season 3 was really good - packed with lots of nutritious goodness - but the pace was so full-on out-of-the-gate it did mean it's hard to build up the momentum. Where do you go from there? Inevitably the much-needed slower episodes can be a slightly awkward downward gear-shift at times (e.g. 3x05), but can equally work very well (e.g. 3x12). In short, a balance between the mean-pace of season 2, and the mean-pace of season 3, with more of a sense of steady escalation over time. Season 2 did feel a bit-too slow in the front half (on a week-to-week basis particularly), but at times I have said "woah, slow down just a touch" during season 3's front-half. Ironically (as I was quietly predicting) they were a smidge too far with the cranked-up pace. It's been good and enjoyable, but when you kick off so breathlessly, it does generate challenges in balancing the pace and crescendos of an entire season - for the most part they've done very well, but there have been wobbles and some crunchy gear changes here-and-there.

I could list more, but just because I'd rather focus on the positive, rather than the (relatively) negative, doesn't mean I'm some blind and deluded fanatic. :rolleyes:

You people ... geez. :p

*awaits the inevitable "What do you mean "you people"?" meme* :lol:

Wyldwraith

29-Mar-2013, 10:36 PM

paranoid101

29-Mar-2013, 11:35 PM

Great fecking episode, goodbye merle you will be missed.

I swear us zombie fans will nitpick this show to death lol

Buzzbomb

30-Mar-2013, 12:34 AM

Again - Did no one else think zombie Merle looked very much like Bub?

Looked more like Paul Newman to me.... great episode though!

Morto Vivente

30-Mar-2013, 12:43 AM

Looked more like Paul Newman to me.... great episode though!

Yeah, Newman after he's been hogging the bong all night!

facestabber

30-Mar-2013, 12:49 AM

Very well said Minion and I simply have nothing to add.

Wylde, do you have a fever? haha

AcesandEights

30-Mar-2013, 02:10 AM

Jeebus, Wyld! The one time you recant on your trademark TWD picayunery, is when I need you the most. It's a classic stab in the back! :lol:

Moon Knight

30-Mar-2013, 02:51 AM

Haha, you guys are awesome.

I agree with MZ but I totally understand where the others are coming from considering the source material. My biggest gripe with how characters are killed off in the show is you can tell off the bat they are gonna die by how much attention they suddenly get in the episode.

AcesandEights

30-Mar-2013, 03:15 AM

My biggest gripe with how characters are killed off in the show is you can tell off the bat they are gonna die by how much attention they suddenly get in the episode.

That is exactly what I'm saying. Combine that with a dash of plot armor and it becomes a bit too safe and predictable.

Harleydude666

30-Mar-2013, 03:19 AM

[QUOTE=MinionZombie;296082]Harley - Leo's death in The Departed comes in the closing minutes of a pretty long movie, and at the natural conclusion to his story as part of the remainder of the story involving Matt Damon's character - there is meaning there, and a build up to that for the entire film. The moment is shocking, but the moment is entirely earned and justified, not-to-mention an important event in the grand scheme of things.

What Andy and Aces seem to be proposing would be the equivalent of capping Leo's character five minutes in - from a writer's perspective (and story/plot perspective) that's cutting yourself off at the knees.

The death doesn't have to be a drawn out moment full of weeping choristers and swelling strings, but just chucking one in at random is piss-weak. Whatever death for whoever it is, it has to make some semblance of sense - either in the grand scheme of things, or for the character, or for that very moment they're existing in.

I get that but he was killed with no warning, it blew you away. No one could say they saw it coming. I wouldn't mind seeing Daryl go out this way and maybe in the first five minutes, it would be mind blowing. It would totally fuck with the security fans have with the characters of the show. Show the audience no one is sacred

babomb

30-Mar-2013, 08:19 AM

Everybody wants their favorite character, or well liked characters for the most part, to have deaths that to some degree are equal to their perception of that characters worth in the show.
This is understandable.
I guess the problem I have is that I don't have a favorite character. I don't really identify with, or to be honest, really care about any specific character enough to feel that their death needs to be done any specific way in order to do that character justice.
The motivating factor for me in watching the show is to see the world they're surviving in, that's in a sense the character I care about. So there's no fear in having that "character" die off anytime soon. The downfall of this is that the character I care about then is pretty lean on appearances lately. That's why 3x01 and "Clear" are the only 2 episodes I really cared much about this season. There's been elements within several other episodes that have been rewarding.
This has basically been the basis of my nitpicks. I don't watch the show because I think it's a compelling character driven drama that has exceptionally well developed characters that i care about. Although it may be that, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm just a person that's stimulated and captivated by ideas, not people or interpersonal events. What's driving my interest at this point is the idea of the war that's looming. Who dies or survives as a result of that war is, to me, not the substance of things hoped for. I'm eagerly wanting to see how the war itself plays out in regard to what sort of ways the prison group may or may not come up with to cope with woodbury's forces. And what ideas and concepts will emerge as the substance of what season 4 will ultimately become.
The pitfall is that I'm fully aware that those aspects that interest me the most will always take a backseat to the aspects I could really care less about.

krisvds

30-Mar-2013, 08:34 AM

E I don't really identify with, or to be honest, really care about any specific character enough to feel that their death needs to be done any specific way in order to do that character justice.
The motivating factor for me in watching the show is to see the world they're surviving in, that's in a sense the character I care about. So there's no fear in having that "character" die off anytime soon. The downfall of this is that the character I care about then is pretty lean on appearances lately. That's why 3x01 and "Clear" are the only 2 episodes I really cared much about this season. There's been elements within several other episodes that have been rewarding.
This has basically been the basis of my nitpicks. I don't watch the show because I think it's a compelling character driven drama that has exceptionally well developed characters that i care about. Although it may be that, I'm not saying it isn't.

Yep. Could not have said it better.
The show tries to be this character driven drama but the poor writing and often laughable characterisation have really let the series down this season.
/ moan.

Fingers crossed for a cool finale and a turnaround come next season.

MinionZombie

30-Mar-2013, 12:13 PM

I actually agree with MZ about something. God, I think I hear the 1st Seal of the Apocalypse breaking.
However "real" it might be for main characters to die hapless deaths, that isn't FUN for the MAJORITY of viewers. End of the day, TV shows are basically democracy-by-prediction. If the show developers correctly anticipate and deliver what the majority of the audience wants, the show succeeds. If they try and take some sort of artistic integrity-based position and do it their way with no thought to how the viewers will react to it, the show fails, no matter how much a small minority of viewers might respect the hell outta it. 2% of Viewers absolutely adoring incorruptible artistic integrity has never, and WILL NEVER trump 98% of viewers looking for a fun 60 mins of TV per week.

I mean, you even say "formulaic TV style" like that's a profane phrase. Guess what? It IS TV! Kept on the air not by we 20% of the viewer-share zombie fanatic fans, but by the 80% of people who could take or leave Romero's work who for whatever reason have decided they like watching TWD every Sunday there's a new episode. Which makes more sense, write to please the 20% die-hards, or write to please the 80% expecting simple "good formulaic TV"?

Remembering that at the end of the day, for every last person with TRUE control over this show's existence, TWD exists for no other reason than to provide a desirable 48 minute window that will make the commercial spots worth a lot to sell.

#1 ... *faints* :lol:

#2 ... I wouldn't go so far as to say that TWD is being governed blindly by a 'popular vote'. They keep tabs on what the viewer response is - any responsible showrunners would do exactly that - because sometimes the creative/artistic people can end up being swallowed by their own arses if they just swan off in whatever direction their inflating egos might push them ... as with all things, moderation is the key, and I'd say TWD has a pretty good handle on being moderate in doing what they want to do with the show, and listening to fans when they're raising appropriate and legitimate concerns/wants.

A balance has to be struck, and frankly some of the most fervent corners of the fanbase shouldn't be listened to - just like political extremists in the real world in terms of governing a country - but there is also a different between an extremist (e.g. the idiot subset of Daryl fans who take it way too far who send death threats to Laurie Holden) and a nerd (such as us folks), just like you have political nerds who raise detailed and considered analyses of particular issues.

At the same time, if you pay too much attention to the 'popular vote', you then end up with a messy product and you lose sight of what you're actually doing. In the end, there's so many differing opinions floating around that they naturally don't pay that much attention to them - just the legitimate concerns that are raised on a more regular basis (the issues that float to the top of the general rabble rabble rabble of the viewership). The actors have said this in the past too - recently Steven Yeun said that he just stopped going to any forums or whatnot online to read about the show because it was just a rammy of extreme opinions - various forms of extremely vocal minorities - that old chestnut of the noise being decidedly out of proportion to the number of mouths yammering away.

So, in short, I reckon the TWD makers are doing a good job of maintaining a balance in the rocky seas of viewership opinion. One thing is for sure - far better to have a vocal fanbase, then a fanbase that doesn't give a shit. :)

Great fecking episode, goodbye merle you will be missed.

I swear us zombie fans will nitpick this show to death lol

I do feel sometimes that we're awfully spoiled with TWD, and that some folks out there in the webtubes could ease back a touch to recognise just how lucky we are to have TWD.

Jeebus, Wyld! The one time you recant on your trademark TWD picayunery, is when I need you the most. It's a classic stab in the back! :lol:

:lol::lol::lol:

Haha, you guys are awesome.

I agree with MZ but I totally understand where the others are coming from considering the source material. My biggest gripe with how characters are killed off in the show is you can tell off the bat they are gonna die by how much attention they suddenly get in the episode.

Now yeah, for example with Axel - we hadn't had much from him throughout the previous episodes, and then we got a good amount of time with him - then we all know what happened. That approach has in itself become a meme "get character development = death" ... so they could tweak that in season 4. Make sure you've covered a character that is going to snuff it in previous episodes, and then at the appropriate time in the pacing of the individual episode (in which they die) snuff them out.

There is an element of pacing that is involved, and it has to work correctly in the flow of the episode - if the episode is going to be all about the fallout from someone's death, then you could cover their character sufficiently in earlier episodes, and then snuff them out in the opening teaser (or first ten minutes), and then have the fallout.

However, if the intention of the episode's plot isn't to do with the fallout of the death, and that the death is instead a big old FULL STOP to a particular narrative, then naturally it has to come near/at the end of the episode.

On the other hand you can have, say in the instance of Lori, have her death come late in the episode (because there's so much other crazy shit going on that it's the natural point for that event anyway), and then have the fallout of her death affect Rick over several episodes - particularly 3x05 - in that instance you've got so much to decompress and debrief from that you do need an entire episode to just take a breath and assess what the hell just happened. Similarly 3x09 has a lot of business to deal with - if you've been wrapped up in a lot of action, then you need to balance it back out with some business afterwards.

Actually 3x09 and 3x10 are interesting examples of pacing - 3x09 takes place seconds after 3x08 ended, so the action is up front - but then with Merle joining the group, and the Dixon brothers splitting off, and everyone else heading back to the prison, there's a lot of business that needs taking care of. Then in the case of 3x10, it's the more traditional pacing of building up to a crescendo (when The Governor attacks Woodbury).

In both cases however, it makes sense for the overall story of the season and the individual plots of the episodes.

...

I've gone and got lost down a rabbit hole of screenwriter talk, such as I'm prone to do ... and it's lunch time, so I'm off for a bit of grub. :cool:

*EDIT*

Forgot to mention, I watched the episode again last night on Fox UK, and I actually did see other tyre bursting obstacles had been laid out - it's just that we never got a good enough shot to show them more closely. It was only when I was specifically looking for them in a single wide shot, that I actually saw them. So I was wide-of-the-mark on that one.