TWD 3x16 "Welcome to the Tombs" episode discussion...**SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Keep discussion of 3x16 "Welcome to the Tombs" within this thread only.

Don't talk about the episode in the shoutbox.

Comic book spoilers must be put into spoiler tags (not everyone has read the comics). If you don't know how to use spoiler tags, go to the HPOTD FAQ and look up the section on 'BB Codes'.


The Walking Dead Episode 316: “Welcome to the Tombs” - ”Rick and the group have to seriously consider if the prison is worth defending as the Governor’s impending attack looms over their heads.” Written By: Glen Mazzara, Directed By: Ernest Dickerson

Preview pics and videos here: http://dailydead.com/30-photos-from-the-walking-dead-season-3-finale/

It's the finale episode of the season, people! How time flies when you're having fun. :)

[facestabber]

Bittersweet day. 7 months is a long wait for resolution or closure of whatever happens tonight. The good news is TWD makes winter more bearable in Illinois

[Moon Knight]

All in all, pretty happy with the season despite a few setbacks.

Bring on the finale!

[babomb]

Maybe they'll surprise us with an exceptional episode!?

[facestabber]

Maybe they'll surprise us with an exceptional episode!?

After last seasons mid break and finale I would be surprised if tonight isn't great. I believe it will be a great one

[Morto Vivente]

After last seasons mid break and finale I would be surprised if tonight isn't great. I believe it will be a great one

I hope it rocks too ! I'd love to see Allen being chomped; he's such a tosser....Fingers crossed.

[MagicMoonMonkey]

Has anyone seen the finale yet? I recall that there was a member on here that was privy to the season 1 screeners. There is a lot to fit in this episode and I wouldn't mind if season 4 featured the Governor for a while.
I imagine come the summer months we will know what the setting is for Season 4. I still champion a plagiarised original Day of the Dead script for a season!!!
Bed early tonight and TWD with my ready brek. Smashing.

[babomb]

Just another episode. It had its moments. But for a finale, it reminds me of that saying in all public restroom-"Here I sit all broken hearted, came to shit but only farted".
This was something I could've seen happening in the middle of the season. The season 2 mid-season finale was better than this...
Best thing that happened was Carl stepping up like they all should've. Glen and Maggie both had the chance to cut them down, including the Gov but they must've forgot what he did to them or something. Or Herschel must've turned everyone into a born again christian.

I mean, it sort of worked out interestingly in the end. But man!! Weak!!!

[AnxietyDilemma]

That was not what I was expecting at all. I am definitely a bit disappointed.

[Kaos]

15 was a better episode.

Carl was right. The dude wasn't following instructions which means he definitely wanted to punk them.

Andrea acted like she didn't understand the problem with injured people dying in a zombie apocalypse. She yaps too much instead of maintaining the focus required for the situation.

[babomb]

Like I said, if this episode would've been somewhere in the middle of the season, I would've really liked the episode for its own merits.
But as a season finale, after all that buildup, it just totally fell flat.

There were parts i liked, like the Gov flipping and gunning his own people down. I knew it was over for him at that point. Then Carl flat out gunning that kid down, then laying down the law to Rick for his reasons on doing it.

[rongravy]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?

WTF was she doing reminiscing with Milton when she should've been monkey toeing it from the get go?
I was really hoping the last we'd see of her was the noises from behind the door, and she'd miraculously be unscathed for season four.
But oh wellz...

[babomb]

15 was a better episode.

Carl was right. The dude wasn't following instructions which means he definitely wanted to punk them.

Andrea acted like she didn't understand the problem with injured people dying in a zombie apocalypse. She yaps too much instead of maintaining the focus required for the situation.

Totally. She's trying to have a heart felt conversation with Milton while he's holding on by a thread waiting for her to save herself. Then the group gets there just in the nick of time for her to explain why she was being such a dumb blonde the whole season.

[ProfessorChaos]

nearly the entirety of season 3.5 has been a let-down. between the first half of season 2 and this last go around, i'm convinced this show has some of the weakest pacing and most glaring inconsistencies i've ever seen. funny how amy, who was bit by a walker repeatedly, took several hours to reanimate, while shane last season and milton this season both came to after natural deaths in a matter of a few convenient minutes when the writers called for it.

i really hope that whatever drama went on with mazzarra and the impact it has had upon this show is done and over with. this show has potential, but all this behind the scenes drama and some craptacular writing has really brought it down from what it could have been. i'm glad that it's going to be october till it's back on, i feel there's some things that need to be addressed.

things i liked: the initial attack on the prison and the devastation of the walkers surrounding it, the governor going apeshit and gunning down dozens of his own people, and the last five minutes when tyrese joins the prison gang and andrea dies (which gives me higher hopes for season 4).

things i disliked: milton's nearly instant re-animation (much lilke shane's last season, though this one did grace us with andrea's demise), carl being an arrogant little prick again (even if that kid was kinda asking to get shot and carl did call rick out on being a pussy, he's still a little asshole who i'd like to see lose a limb or something), darly's goofy-looking pixie haircut, the lack of morgan showing up. andrea's death was a let-down, too, as i seriously doubt she could cut through handcuff links with a set of pliers like that. they should've came into the governor's torture room to find milton chowing down on what was left of andrea's corpse still bound to the hot seat.

will still be tuning in for season 4, but i had such high hopes for the last half of 3 based on how well the front 8 were. if AMC's greed or problems with showrunners/writers/kirkman can be compensated for, this show could still fly high, but only time will tell i suppose.

[JonOfTheShred]

I still don't think the series has technically had a bad episode. I've enjoyed every minute of Walking Dead, and have easily forgiven any minor hiccups along the way. This episode was no exception.

- I love how Hershel left that highlighted portion of the Bible. I thought to myself "Aww yea! The Governor just got SERVED!"
- The Governor in the show is officially worse than the Governor in the comic. GUNNING DOWN HIS OWN CITIZENS?! That was awesome. It was the only logical way the TV Governor could rival the one in the comic. AMC aren't ballsy enough to show him murder a baby or rape some bitch. That would be too far for TV. For some reason, mercilessly gunning down his own people was just far more entertaining to me. The reactions of the Black Bowman and Martinez, timidly jumping back into the truck, were priceless.
- Andrea / Milton got dragged out a bit, as has been mentioned. I got people posting on my Facebook "Your Andrea article made her death tonight better" :elol: I thought it was a great way for the character to go out, though. I laughed pretty hard when she said "I know how the safety works."
- The ending was completely different from the comic - rescuing a shit-ton of people from Woodbury? And not even healthy, capable people...they literally adopted all the women, children and elderly from Woodbury. That's gonna be a huge chunk of their food rations.
- Hopefully they flesh out Karen some more. (If I was in the post-apocalypse I'd certainly flesh her out some more. (As a survivor or zombie.))


Looking forward to Season 4, and will more than likely rewatch the entire series before delving into Game of Thrones.

[facestabber]

Last seasons finale conditioned me to expect much more than that. I love TWD so I wont turn my back on it by any means. I am worried about some of the more fringe viewers turning away as the last episode didnt have the same impact as last year. The horde scene at the farm really kept fans salivating and a frenzy maintained through the off season awaiting 3. Guess we'll see.

My concern at the moment lies with Minion. Wondering if you feel vindicated with Andrea. Obviously we saw her heart charge but she never did get to act on it. And lets face it, her decision to not knife the Gov caused many deaths including her own.


And please tell me next season will not be a story about team prison running a nursing home/day care.

[JonOfTheShred]

Last seasons finale conditioned me to expect much more than that. I love TWD so I wont turn my back on it by any means. I am worried about some of the more fringe viewers turning away as the last episode didnt have the same impact as last year. The horde scene at the farm really kept fans salivating and a frenzy maintained through the off season awaiting 3. Guess we'll see.

My concern at the moment lies with Minion. Wondering if you feel vindicated with Andrea. Obviously we saw her heart charge but she never did get to act on it. And lets face it, her decision to not knife the Gov caused many deaths including her own.

So many deaths. Not only that, but he's still roaming the countryside with Martinez and the unnamed Black Guy.

[Moon Knight]

And please tell me next season will not be a story about team prison running a nursing home/day care.

I don't like this really. Ugghhhh.

[Staredge]

Vatos, episode 2.

[Saurian]

That was the worst episode of walking dead yet.

-Andrea wouldnt shutup. If milton didnt have to talk he might have lived longer.
-The battle was like 10 minutes long...wtf.
-Were is the governor?
-Why did they bring back all those older people and children? They could have stayed at woodbury unless they were scared the governor would come back but there was three of the governor and martinez and the bowman might change sides by then anyways.
-What the hell carl you little punk? He needs the crap smacked out of him to get his head straight. That kid that got shot wasnt he the one that had asthma and is the child of that lady that survived the governor mass kill off?

[babomb]

Carl believes he has to make the hard decisions because nobody else is.

[Wyldwraith]

Oh the irony,
One of the FEW things this episode got right WAS Carl murdering the surrendering teen. I was just waiting for him to add to the list, after the Walker he didn't kill ending up killing Dale, and Rick not killing the Governor resulting in more death/destruction/needing to watch over their shoulders...to mention Randall, along the lines of "Your moralizing over this punk who wanted to KILL YOU ended up with you needing to kill Shane, and ME needing to put him back down!"

Carl's got the necessary morality for their world down pat, while his father is still vainly struggling to avoid accepting the grim reality that come the Apocalypse, Us Vs Them really means US *VS* THEM. Rick turning the Prison into a daycare/rest home only proves he STILL doesn't GET IT. I sincerely hope that there's a major Walker incursion through the Prison's open rear that results in the slaughter of these useless extras. If they were so useless that not even the Governor could find a way to use them as cannon fodder, they're nothing but a drain on community resources that need to be allocated to those capable of doing the work. What's an old woman with severe arthritis in both hands going to do to contribute to the collective? Answer: Nothing, but she'll sure suck up food/water/medical supplies. Not to mention Rick will no doubt feel compelled to divide his already scant roster of A-list combatants during any outside-the-Prison excursions, to leave some back at the Prison to ensure the safety of these refugees.

These people are NOT the group's responsibility. The children I can accept...they can, like Carl, grow into the next generation of hardened survivors...but the old folks? Don't get me wrong, I love my CPD-having grandmother to death, and I'd lay down my life to protect her...but a woman with the exact same poor health, of the exact same age that's a stranger to me? Nope. Not risking priceless human resources to safeguard and provide for the used-up. Now if they can QUICKLY demonstrate a means by which they can contribute, great, I'm all for keeping them...I'm talking about the true non-contributors. The Vatos showed that mercy, and look what happened to them.

[zomtom]

This time last year, I couldn't wait to get onto this forum to relay my excitement with the finale. I wish I could say the same thing for the Season 3 finale. Last year's finale was almost as good as Romero's trilogy. It was, on the edge of your seat, excitement. There was the potential for it this year but it never really happened.
What was up with Andrea having a cozy conversation with Milton as he's ready to die and change?? She's been through enough to know she should be trying like a crazy woman to get those damned pliers up into her hands!! I got tired of yelling at my tv screen. At that point, I knew she was dead. I'm also pissed off that both Milton and Andrea got killed. They were two of my favorite characters.
As far as the Woodbury residents the prison crew are taking in; the black woman with the kid. Is she the doctor from the beginning of season 3? Even though they're taking in a bunch of kids and old folks, a doctor would be a great asset to the group. And as far as this "new group" goes, they're just zombie food for the next attack, probably in the beginning of season 4.
Thank God for Game of Thrones. It will get me through another 10 Sundays. October is a long way off. Even if I bitched about this episode, I love this show to death. It's by far the best tv show out there!!! Here's to another 10 seasons of The Walking Dead!!!!!

[Trancelikestate]

A few cool things but all in all a total letdown. Maybe they jaded us last year? Super disappointing. The governors just out there driving around with the 2 guys whilst they visit Woodbury? Am I done with the show? No. But after last years finale and last weeks episode I feel like a high school girl who's prom date didn't show up. "Well ladies, the good news is your dates are here. Whats the bad news? They're dead." :( Pathetic.

[Legion2213]

Tough crowd in here today...I enjoyed it the finale. :D

The governors face before he started murderizing his people was fucking legendary, what a complete and utter remorseless psychopath!!!

Carl called it right, that kid was shaping to try something IMO, or he looked like it...should have turned the barrel of that gun well away from him if he wanted to make it clear he was surrendering, he looked like was about to sucker Carl as far as I am concerned...I would have malleted the guy myself in Carls situation.

Edit: Just dawned on me, I have a few episodes left of this seasons "Archer" and I am then totally fucked for current TV to watch...when is the final half season of "Breaking Bad" coming back?

[niiru]

i'm convinced this show has some of the weakest pacing and most glaring inconsistencies i've ever seen. funny how amy, who was bit by a walker repeatedly, took several hours to reanimate, while shane last season and milton this season both came to after natural deaths in a matter of a few convenient minutes when the writers called for it.
Rewatch the season 1 finale. If I recall correctly, they specifically state that people come back at certain rates. It's been a while since I watched it myself, but I think it was stated as something like 45 minutes being the shortest scientifically verified to 12 hours.

I think the marks on Andrea's wrists when she finally gets the pliers are suposed to indicate to us that she's been working and dropping those pliers for some time (but I'll need to rewatch to see if those marks were there at the beginning of the episode).

[kidgloves]

Im one of those who doesn't have any preconceived ideas on what a finale/premiere should be so I really enjoyed this again. Some strange character decisions but that seems to be one of the main inconsistencies that need to be addressed on TWD I got a HUGE Lost vibe at the end as they welcomed the coach into the prison.
Tyreese is where he should be AT LAST.
Governor has completely gone off the scale and Im more than happy to see Morrissey coming back.

[ProfessorChaos]

...when is the final half season of "Breaking Bad" coming back?

july, thank god.


Rewatch the season 1 finale. If I recall correctly, they specifically state that people come back at certain rates. It's been a while since I watched it myself, but I think it was stated as something like 45 minutes being the shortest scientifically verified to 12 hours.

I think the marks on Andrea's wrists when she finally gets the pliers are suposed to indicate to us that she's been working and dropping those pliers for some time (but I'll need to rewatch to see if those marks were there at the beginning of the episode).

no thanks, that "finale" was a bit boring as well....i do recall what jenner said, but it's just amusing to me that whenever the episode's tension levels hinge on someone coming back as a walker, it only takes a few minutes. and yes, andrea's wrists were all cut and bloodied in the beginning of the episode from her likely struggling against the handcuffs.....must've been made by a different handcuff company than the ones merle couldn't cut using a hacksaw in season one. andrea seemed to have no problem using those pliers to get right through them.

[bassman]

I enjoyed it. Not sure what everyone was expecting. They said even before filming started that the prison arc would last into Season Four. Then they later openly admitted that the finale wouldn't be a huge cliff hanger like 213, but will be more of an emotional closure. There was never going to be a big Michonne/Prison/OMG reveal like last time.

[MinionZombie]

I'm with Legion, Kidgloves, and Bassman - I really dug this episode - I particularly liked how it played against expectations.

I was fully expecting The Governor to be snuffed out - so blow me down, the bastard survives, with his terrified guards at his side - I'm actually quite good with that happening. Not surprised to see such bitching about it, though. :rolleyes:

Facestabber - ABSOLUTELY GUTTED that Andrea died. I wasn't expecting that at all. Poor Andrea. :(

What's more - poor Milton! I really liked his character, so I was gutted to see him go, and oh man ... really sorry to see Andrea go. I always thought the sheer hatred she received was totally over-the-top (with some of it being really quite disgusting - she shags two blokes in the span of a year, and she's branded a "whore" and a "slut" - absolutely disgusting reaction from some corners of the Internet, quite frankly :mad:) ... she wasn't perfect, but that's a good thing. So much of TWD is about mistakes, or causing problems by trying to do the right thing.

There's a deeply moral vein to this episode that I found very satisfying - I liked that the truth of The Governor has been exposed to Woodbury, and it is the morally correct and just thing to do to take care of the other people. Burden or not, they are innocent victims of a horrendous plague, but as Dale said, we must choose to keep our humanity, otherwise what's the point?

I liked how Rick's grief was, essentially, settled - a very mournful and bittersweet close as well resting on what I presume was Lori's grave marker.

Carl shooting that kid - yes, very TWD, and straight outta the comics - I think the intentions of the teen with the shotgun was entirely vague. You can read it any way you like. It's entirely up to the viewer's own personal opinion. I would have told the kid to toss the shotgun to the side, but that would have been more practical but less tense, and it wouldn't have necessitated Carl shooting him, which is a whole new vein of dramatic development for season 4.

As Rick says, it's easy to forget he's a kid, and so his moral compass was never completed by the time the apocalypse rocked up, and in this world it's incredibly easy for a child to become a monster if they're not strictly guided in very troubled moral waters. Killing is necessary, but restraint is just as necessary for one's own sanity - otherwise you'll end up like The Governor.

I did bark at the screen for Andrea to not just stop reaching for the pliers while she was talking. By all means - talk - it was necessary to try and explain her justified motiviations, but for goodness sake, have her talk whilst trying to rescue herself. That would smooth over that annoyance.

Speaking of which - still absolutely gutted Andrea got taken out. :(

I had thought last week "what if Team Prison and Team Woodbury joined forces?" - and well, this is an interesting coming together. So I'll be interested to see where it goes.

Damn it ... now I really wanna see season 4! :lol:

Was the back-eight problematic in places? Absolutely, yes, and I've talked at length about my responses to certain issues - but an unmitigated disaster as some rather reactionary comments from some on here suggest? Don't be daft. :)

Circling back to subverting expectations - yes - I liked that approach very much. Indeed, expectations are a killer - in such circumstances the viewer must share at least half of the blame for their response to the episode. I've hugely anticipated films or TV episodes in the past and been let down - but I recognised on a second viewing that I was considerably to blame for my original vitirolic/disappointed response ... sometimes disappointments are legitimate, but expectations are killers just as much.

I'd advise temperance and a second viewing of the entire season in your own time.

[JonOfTheShred]

I'm with Legion, Kidgloves, and Bassman - I really dug this episode - I particularly liked how it played against expectations.

AND JonOfTheShred, maybe? I also enjoyed the episode. Don't mind me though. ;)

[MinionZombie]

AND JonOfTheShred, maybe? I also enjoyed the episode. Don't mind me though. ;)

Quite right, sorry for the oversight. :D

So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then...

Legion
Kidgloves
Bassman
JonOfTheShred
MinionZombie

Chime in... :)

[JonOfTheShred]

Quite right, sorry for the oversight. :D

So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then...

Legion
Kidgloves
Bassman
JonOfTheShred
MinionZombie

Chime in... :)

Just busting chops here hehe.

I totally agree with your last sentence,
"I'd advise temperance and a second viewing of the entire season in your own time. "

I posted this little diddy on another forum, I'm just gonna copy and paste it to save time:

"The show is best watched in large doses. Season 2 failed for people when it dragged for week after week....they got tired of waiting for Sophia to be found. Now when you watch Season 2 over the course of the weekend, that shit be fucking baller, yo. Same can be said for Season 3. It happens over the course of, what? Two weeks? How long in the show are these events unfolding? I guarantee people will enjoy the show more when watching it in marathon runs. Also gotta note, everyone's hate for "Arrow on the Doorstep" can be blamed 100% on commercial breaks. When an episode is meant to rise in tension throughout, the tension is completely ruined ever time you get a barrage of shitty advertisements. While this applies to every show ever made (commercials fuck up the pacing and atmosphere...funner to watch off Netflix/DVD...etc.) it is 100% more noticeable in a show like Walking Dead. Post-apocalyptic horror is best watched when one can immerse themself into the universe with surround sound and watch 5 hour chunks of the show. When you have annoying advertisements interspersed in a post-apocalyptic show, it fucks it all up. All the detractors of the show should rewatch Season 3 before casting stones at the writers. They may find they enjoy it far more than they realized."

[Staredge]

poor Milton! ............so I was gutted to see him go,

*snort*



Tend to agree with most everything else. Hopefully Lori will now rest in peace. I could be wrong, but was this the first time we've seen Rick kiss Judith??? I can't remember seeing him with her any other time.


Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress???

[MagicMoonMonkey]

I had thought last week "what if Team Prison and Team Woodbury joined forces?" - and well, this is an interesting coming together. So I'll be interested to see where it goes.

I think the Team P and Team W joining of forces would have been a bit more fruitful if all the able-bodied townsfolk had not been gunned down. The elderly and the young won't add much to the work and defence force, though getting Tyresse and Sasha back with Team P is going to be good.

I share your, and the other members you listed, enjoyment of the finale, and barring the failure to off the Governor in a dramatic splatter-fest at the hands of a hungry horde of gouls not dissimilar to death of the wrongly vilified and misunderstood Captain Rhodes, the finale played out quite well. Here's looking forward to October (and the spoiler months in between) in the hope of another 16 episode season of our favourite TV show. Without my TWD and CLone Wars I will be lost. :(

[MinionZombie]

Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress???

:lol::lol::lol:

Now that made me chuckle heartily ... gotta make a meme for that!


I think the Team P and Team W joining of forces would have been a bit more fruitful if all the able-bodied townsfolk had not been gunned down. The elderly and the young won't add much to the work and defence force, though getting Tyresse and Sasha back with Team P is going to be good.

I share your, and the other members you listed, enjoyment of the finale, and barring the failure to off the Governor in a dramatic splatter-fest at the hands of a hungry horde of gouls not dissimilar to death of the wrongly vilified and misunderstood Captain Rhodes, the finale played out quite well. Here's looking forward to October (and the spoiler months in between) in the hope of another 16 episode season of our favourite TV show. Without my TWD and CLone Wars I will be lost. :(

Good man, another appreciator ... ... is that a word?

Anyway - I'm sure they'll find use for the folk they've taken on. The young can wash their cars for pocket money, and the oldies can babysit and tell tall tales around the campfire. :p

Seriously though, I'm sure they'll be of use, plus it's a strong moral position - I really liked that whole last chunk of the episode involving Andrea's demise and Rick returning to his Sheriff roots to defend what's still good in this world.

I was watching the online extras for this episode and not only did it put front-and-centre to me just how great the music was in this episode (especially the opening and closing scenes - the latter most of all), but the thought processes that go into the acting ... Laurie Holden was talking about how with Andrea there was a moment of calm just before she offs herself, because she realises she's going back to Amy. I thought that was an incredibly sweet observation from Holden, and it actually choked me up a little bit. Even that lined of Michonne's "I'm not going anywhere" was just so touching, they got to be together one last time, the toughest time ... yeah ... this episode actually makes me kinda melancholly, in a good way though.

I think regret is a key element of Andrea's final moments, for good and bad.

Facestabber - back to the issue of Andrea's demise, I do feel a tad cheated that we didn't get to keep her around to complete her transformation 100%, but at the same time I'm quite satisfied with how it played out anyway. It's a memorable end, and she had a very full season-long arc. I've still been really quite disgusted with her getting labelled a "whore" just for shagging two guys in a single year etc ... sometimes I feel the hatred is self-perpetuating and damn-near irrational in the most extreme quarters of Internet opinion.

Mmmm ... this is certainly an episode to stick in the mind. It didn't go in the obvious directions - it's interesting to look back over old posts in old threads and see just how wide of the mark some of our expectations/predictions were - and that's almost entirely a good thing.

Also - Team Prison have got a bit of tidying up to do! :D

Oh yeah - Season 3 finale memes by moi over yonder:
http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?20029-Get-out-of-here-Carl!!!!-The-TWD-memes-lols-thread&p=296213#post296213

...

Lastly, here's a question:

If you were Rick, would you have brought the remaining Woodburyites to the Prison, or would you have taken over Woodbury (in an equally peaceful manner)? Either way The Governor knows where you are.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, here's an interview with Robert Kirkman on the season finale.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/walking-dead-post-mortem-robert-kirkman-talks-andrea-160521549.html


Laurie Holden suggested it was somewhat of a last-minute decision to kill off Andrea. What led to the change in plans?
I wouldn’t say it was necessarily last minute. It wasn’t quite planned at the very beginning of the season. It came up in the development of the Woodbury story. There were a lot of different plans for the Andrea character, and as we started getting closer and closer to the last few episodes of the season, it started to become a little more clear the direction we wanted to go in. And the thing that would have the most impact on all of the characters was actually her death.

Did the fan backlash towards the character factor in at all?
That was never anything that worked into the decision-making process. Fan backlash isn’t something we use to make decisions. The death of Andrea was already shot well before these last eight episodes aired. So it’s not really even possible to use fan reaction to guide story.

Were you surprised by the criticism directed at her? And, looking back, would you do anything differently?
Looking back, there are probably a few things we could’ve done to stem that. It wasn’t our intention to have a small but vocal portion of the audience not really behind her. We really wanted to show this character as someone who was optimistic about the possibilities of Woodbury. In the end, it’s always a risk having the audience know something that the character doesn’t. But we felt it was important to show the optimism in her. To show, in a sense, how desperate she was to have something to hold on to and be optimistic about. Some audience members didn’t react favorably to that. I do think it was a misreading of the situation. I see a lot of people saying, “Why doesn’t she know the Governor is a bad guy?” We’re seeing a larger picture that the character is not seeing. And some audience members didn’t key into that as much as we would’ve liked them too.

Why did she spend so much time staring at Zombie Milton instead of picking up those damn pliers?
[Laughs] You know, it was a struggle. A very tense situation. If you’ve never been straped to a chair watching someone die before you I don’t know that you can really judge how someone behaved. [Laughs]

Why did Rick bring the Woodbury residents to the prison instead of relocating the prison folks to Woodbury?
The Governor is still out there. He’s already killed a great number of people from Woodbury. And I think they were able to repel him at the prison, so moving into Woodbury and setting up shop in his backyard – a place he’s very familiar with — would be very dangerous for Rick. They see the prison as something that is much more easily defended than Woodbury. They were able to get into Woodbury easily themselves. The Woodbury defenses are very effective against zombies, but not very effective against humans. They see it as much more of a defensible position.

Why keep the Governor around as a series regular next season?
That question will be answered Season 4. We always had a plan for this guy. We always knew that it was a bigger story than would fit into one season. There’s still a lot more to be done with this guy. We’ve known from the very first minute of Season 3 that we would be keeping the Governor around for a while.

[I]Will the prison remain the primary set piece in Season 4?
There’s always going to be new locations and new places to discover and explore. I don’t want to reveal too much; Season 4 is still five months away. But I will say that as we see at the end of Season 3 we’re definitely going to start Season 4 at the prison. We may be there the whole season and we may not be… But there are going to be some big differences from Season 3.

Interesting stuff ... and all very reasoned and level-headed. :cool:

[JonOfTheShred]

:lol::lol::lol:

Now that made me chuckle heartily ... gotta make a meme for that!



Good man, another appreciator ... ... is that a word?

Anyway - I'm sure they'll find use for the folk they've taken on. The young can wash their cars for pocket money, and the oldies can babysit and tell tall tales around the campfire. :p

Seriously though, I'm sure they'll be of use, plus it's a strong moral position - I really liked that whole last chunk of the episode involving Andrea's demise and Rick returning to his Sheriff roots to defend what's still good in this world.

I was watching the online extras for this episode and not only did it put front-and-centre to me just how great the music was in this episode (especially the opening and closing scenes - the latter most of all), but the thought processes that go into the acting ... Laurie Holden was talking about how with Andrea there was a moment of calm just before she offs herself, because she realises she's going back to Amy. I thought that was an incredibly sweet observation from Holden, and it actually choked me up a little bit. Even that lined of Michonne's "I'm not going anywhere" was just so touching, they got to be together one last time, the toughest time ... yeah ... this episode actually makes me kinda melancholly, in a good way though.

I think regret is a key element of Andrea's final moments, for good and bad.

Facestabber - back to the issue of Andrea's demise, I do feel a tad cheated that we didn't get to keep her around to complete her transformation 100%, but at the same time I'm quite satisfied with how it played out anyway. It's a memorable end, and she had a very full season-long arc. I've still been really quite disgusted with her getting labelled a "whore" just for shagging two guys in a single year etc ... sometimes I feel the hatred is self-perpetuating and damn-near irrational in the most extreme quarters of Internet opinion.

Mmmm ... this is certainly an episode to stick in the mind. It didn't go in the obvious directions - it's interesting to look back over old posts in old threads and see just how wide of the mark some of our expectations/predictions were - and that's almost entirely a good thing.

Also - Team Prison have got a bit of tidying up to do! :D

Oh yeah - Season 3 finale memes by moi over yonder:
http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?20029-Get-out-of-here-Carl!!!!-The-TWD-memes-lols-thread&p=296213#post296213

...

Lastly, here's a question:

If you were Rick, would you have brought the remaining Woodburyites to the Prison, or would you have taken over Woodbury (in an equally peaceful manner)? Either way The Governor knows where you are.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, here's an interview with Robert Kirkman on the season finale.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/walking-dead-post-mortem-robert-kirkman-talks-andrea-160521549.html



Interesting stuff ... and all very reasoned and level-headed. :cool:


Thanks for posting that Kirkman interview, definitely an interesting read!

I'm really wondering how the ratings fared; I suspect the show broke its own record once again? I'm definitely hoping they start giving the show a bigger budget next season, considering how well it's doing in ratings.

[Morto Vivente]

Quite right, sorry for the oversight. :D

So let's make a tally of who really dug this episode then...

Legion
Kidgloves
Bassman
JonOfTheShred
MinionZombie

Chime in... :)

I dug the finale. The fact that it wasn't another 20 minute showdown, this time against the living instead of the undead (season 2) shows that the writers aren't just pandering to mass appeal. Let's face it most people like action, maybe that's why mainstream cinema pumps out so many action movies with no character depth and lame plots.

Sad to see Milton go, definitely my favorite addition to the cast in season 3, for me he had the sensibilities of a sane Dr Logan. For reasons of personal satisfaction I wish he'd blown the piss out of the Governor, however it's great that Morrissey is coming back for more of TWD.

I think Andrea handed the torch over to Michonne in that last scene they had, although 2 action-women in the group would have been fine by me.

The Governor's reaction to the Woodbury-ites was spot on. No power and control over them, therefore they were no use to him; pop,pop,pop ! As many of you predicted, during the prison assault they bolted at the first sign of trouble.

Taking in the refugees was the right thing to do, and not just from a traditional ethical viewpoint. IMO cooperation is the key to surviving any kind of apocalypse; not John J Rambo escapades, they maybe entertaining but in reality they're bullshit. Who knows what kind of skills some of the refugees might have, and we'll never know because they're all extras. You need a group to survive, we're human beings not tigers. Everyone does what they can and nobody is completely self-sufficient. That's why we've had social structures since the year dot; yes ? The trick to surviving an apocalypse is knowing who to cooperate with.

IMO the scene with Carl shooting the kid really hi-lights this point. Assuming the kid had swallowed the Governor's rhetoric about team prison, he probably intended to pull the trigger if Carl had grabbed the shotgun. It was the Governor's last words to Milton in action; kill or be killed etc. The kid was thinking fuck it they're going to kill me anyway. No wonder he was scared, as far as he was concerned Carl and crew were psychos. I think Hershel read it wrong, and Carl not being bogged down by social conventions got it right. Ultimately though, the kid was just another casualty of the Governor. If he'd cooperated and put the gun down he'd still be alive and traded a sociopath for a true leader. Carl could have warned him though.....Little bastard ! ;)

I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls.

[babomb]

The whole thing was just strange if you ask me. It's like everyone turned into these big soft bleeding hearts except Carl. Like it was a Walking Dead Easter Special. I'm surprised they didn't try to invite the woodbury forces in for a baked ham and some deviled eggs.
Michonne, being this hard edged warrior, suspicious of everyone and everything, just completely understands why Rick tried to hand her over to the Gov, and she holds no hard feelings.:confused:
Daryl, his heart is just warmed like butter over merle dying, and has no suspicions toward anyone for anything.:confused:
(We musta missed the scene where CSI shows up and does a detailed analysis of what exactly happened during Merle's battle, and explains his motivations and thought process, and shows the iPhone video of the entire battle from all perspectives.)
I'm surprised they didn't have a wedding ceremony for Glen and Maggie, then an easter egg hunt afterward. With the specters of Shane, Lori, Andrea, and Merle looking on with affectionate smiles, and Rick seeing them and staring off with a similar smile, while everyone else breaks out into song as the end credits roll.

You got Glen and Maggie up on the catwalk firing at the feet of the attackers while screaming "get out of here". Yeah, that's an appropriate response to a group of blood thirsty thugs showing up with the intentions of slaughtering everyone inside.
The Gov slaughters his own people, but doesn't manage to even wound a single person at the prison after showing up with a huge arsenal? C'mon??

What happened? Did Herschel hold such a touching bible study for everyone that they had this huge change of heart and decided that killing was totally wrong, even in defense of their own lives? So they crafted a plan of non-lethal force in response, that just happened to work out perfectly?
And then they set out to "End this" and chase down the retreating forces of woodbury. What was their plan there? To use harsh words and pass out bibles with meaningfully highlighted passages?

I'm still in shock here, wondering if I just dreamed this!?

I'm glad some of you enjoyed it. But I'm just bewildered at what exactly it was that you guys enjoyed? It's starting to seem like some folks are just trying way too hard to like it, just because you feel lucky to have a zombie based TV show.

Think back to when you read volume 3 of the novels. Those that read the books anyway. Was this season ANYTHING like what you saw happening in your mind when you originally read that volume? Not for me! This was like a terribly watered down, generic, lame version.

[MagicMoonMonkey]

I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls.

Awww mate, c'mon. If there was any justice in the world it would have been Rhodes and his bikur-sojurs that would have been on that beach.
The internet and camera angles are to blame for the misconception that Rhodes and co were the bad guys. I'd have shot Logan and chums the minute Bub cocked the pistol. The list is extensive for reasons to execute the civilian team members.
It is our duty as members of HPotD to spread the truth. Rhodes was misunderstood! :sneaky:

When do FOX UK normally do their re-run of the whole shebang?

[kidgloves]

I'm still in shock here, wondering if I just dreamed this!?

I'm glad some of you enjoyed it. But I'm just bewildered at what exactly it was that you guys enjoyed? It's starting to seem like some folks are just trying way too hard to like it, just because you feel lucky to have a zombie based TV show.

Think back to when you read volume 3 of the novels. Those that read the books anyway. Was this season ANYTHING like what you saw happening in your mind when you originally read that volume? Not for me! This was like a terribly watered down, generic, lame version.

No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe.
I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us.
If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter.

[Legion2213]

No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe.
I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us.
If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter.

I swear to God, it's the internets raison d'etre. I didn't have to put up with people criticising or soiling the reputation of Buck Rogers, the original Battlestar Galactica, Logans Run, or The Bionic Man when I was kid...damn you internet...damn you!!! :D

I understand that folks have different ideas and the internet gives us all a chance to have our little say (positive, negative or indiferent), I think the key is to always go with your own judgement and enjoyment...I visit a site that can be fucking brutal when analysing the TNG Star Trek series and other shows...but you know what, even though most of the observations I see there are correct and pretty valid, I can still enjoy modern Trek for what it is...a little bit of fantasy escapism.

Anyway, I'm blessed with pretty low standards...or maybe it isn't low standards, just an ability to enjoy things for what they are. If any drama or action shows didn't have people making silly, illogical choices, there really wouldn't be much drama or action...Hell, look at real life, you don't see an awfull lot of rational behaviour here either!

- - - Updated - - -


Hysterical question on Talking Dead: will Daryl now see Merle standing up there in a white dress???


Gently caressing his stump...

[Morto Vivente]

Awww mate, c'mon. If there was any justice in the world it would have been Rhodes and his bikur-sojurs that would have been on that beach.
The internet and camera angles are to blame for the misconception that Rhodes and co were the bad guys. I'd have shot Logan and chums the minute Bub cocked the pistol. The list is extensive for reasons to execute the civilian team members.
It is our duty as members of HPotD to spread the truth. Rhodes was misunderstood! :sneaky:

When do FOX UK normally do their re-run of the whole shebang?

I'm not sure whether your joking or just playing devil's advocate ? :confused:

Assuming your not joking.

If you remember Logan wasn't on that beach either, for the same reason as Rhodes. They were both nuts and out of control, albeit in different ways. IMO they both lacked the foresight to see what was required for survival. Rhodes is one of my favorite villains ever, but he was still a sociopathic wack-job. C'mon he deserted his own men when the shit hit the fan, as I said no balls. I don't think they'd even have made it as far as the beach with him in charge, and even if they had he'd have shot them all because there was no ice-cream. ;)

I'm always open to other opinions, so fire up some of those reasons why Sarah and Co should have been murdered relative to increasing the chances of surviving the ZA as a group.

[Legion2213]

I'm not sure whether your joking or just playing devil's advocate ? :confused:

Assuming your not joking.

If you remember Logan wasn't on that beach either, for the same reason as Rhodes. They were both nuts and out of control, albeit in different ways. IMO they both lacked the foresight to see what was required for survival. Rhodes is one of my favorite villains ever, but he was still a sociopathic wack-job. C'mon he deserted his own men when the shit hit the fan, as I said no balls. I don't think they'd even have made it as far as the beach with him in charge, and even if they had he'd have shot them all because there was no ice-cream. ;)

I'm always open to other opinions, so fire up some of those reasons why Sarah and Co should have been murdered relative to increasing the chances of surviving the ZA as a group.

I think he's being a bit sarky mate...that said, "The Rhodes Appreciation Society" is always willing to welcome new members...just so long as they know who's running the monkey farm! ;)

[Morto Vivente]

@ kidgloves

It makes me wonder why the people who excessively moan about TWD still watch it every week ?

@ Legion

That did cross my mind but where was the :rolleyes:, as a member of the monkey farm I need pictures. ;)

[AcesandEights]

Not a good episode, per se, but not really bad. It's nice to see some things that might push the story forward, and a bit worrying to see where some narrative may have to be wasted (Team Nursing Home?). Again, nothing that can't be rectified or used to the advantage of storytelling, if the writers can pull it off.


My concern at the moment lies with Minion.
Tell me about it, been worried about this guy for years :lol: :D

[Legion2213]

I understand about concerns of "The Walking OAP's", but it does mean they can send stronger forces out from the prison in the future, I'm sure a few of the olds can be taught to wield a rifle and defend the home while the stronger group goes out foraging/on missions.

Food may be a problem though...I hope they looted the fuck out of Woodbury for weapons, ammo, medical supplies and other essential goodies.

That big military truck will be handy in the future as well, if a smaller scout group finds a really good stash, the truck can be sent there and really loaded up.

[AcesandEights]

I understand about concerns of "The Walking OAP's", but it does mean they can send stronger forces out from the prison in the future, I'm sure a few of the olds can be taught to wield a rifle and defend the home while the stronger group goes out foraging/on missions.

Food may be a problem though...I hope they looted the fuck out of Woodbury for weapons, ammo, medical supplies and other essential goodies.

That big military truck will be handy in the future as well, if a smaller scout group finds a really good stash, the truck can be sent there and really loaded up.

Well, to be clear, I'm not at all concerned about the refugees from a fantasy survivalist or autistic number crunching angle. I see it as a possible stumbling block for the writers...they have had some questionable moments in choosing what to focus on and the overall pacing throughout the history of the show.

Maybe a new 'show runner' will provide some more structure from the outset of season 4.

[Legion2213]

Well, to be clear, I'm not at all concerned about the refugees from a fantasy survivalist or autistic number crunching angle. I see it as a possible stumbling block for the writers...they have had some questionable moments in choosing what to focus on and the overall pacing throughout the history of the show.

Maybe a new 'show runner' will provide some more structure from the outset of season 4.


Fair comment mate, I suspect (hope) that most of them will be treated like the background crew in Star Trek and the like, just folks in the background who get an occasional bit to do/say...apart from the woman that survived the governors massacre (Karen), she had a few bits to say this season as a Woodbury-ite, I suspect she will get a bit of focus next season as well...speaking of which, was it her son that Carl nailed? That will probably cause a few problems down the line.

Edit: She's pretty damn hot actually, the more screen time the better :)

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130210152143/walkingdead/images/3/35/Melissa-ponzio-330827.jpg

[facestabber]

Not a good episode, per se, but not really bad. It's nice to see some things that might push the story forward, and a bit worrying to see where some narrative may have to be wasted (Team Nursing Home?). Again, nothing that can't be rectified or used to the advantage of storytelling, if the writers can pull it off.


Tell me about it, been worried about this guy for years :lol: :D Haha Classic

Well Minion you will be happy to note that I was rather moved by Andrea's last moments. Especially with Michonne and Andrea's joke at Rick about "knowing how the safety works". And Rick commenting about "their" group as her group as well. It really was a respectable way to end her character. Very honorable that she didnt want anyone else to carry the burden of doing the deed. I extremely miss Dale, and Lori and am sure I will feel the same of Andrea. Kind of disappointed that Daryl and her didnt share more personal goodbye.


TO MINION:

I am guilty of letting my expectations based off of season two finale interfere. The episode wasnt bad at all. In fact it had several great moments. Minion you were dead right about Dale's comments about losing their humanity. Many people hated Dale but I absolutely agreed with what he said. Live for something or die for nothing(Rambo, John J.) I would choose to survive the Zombie apoc but not at the expense of my character and humanity. May that cause my death? Yep but thats what I would chose. Thats just what I stand for. I know many may disagree with that and thats fine. Carls new badass attitude may allow him to live forever but what will differentiate him from the Gov? To answer your earlier question, yes I would have rescued the Woodbury folks. I recognize the strain and hardship it will add but I couldnt live with myself for leaving children and elderly defenseless. Its worth the fight.

[Ragnarr]

My take on the season 3 cap; Andrea cares TOO much for others feeeeeellllllliiiiings, even to the point that I'd expect her to ask "How did I taste Milton? Too blonde? Not enought blonde??" (lame)

The prison battle has to be the first battle I've seen that matches any episode of The A Team. Thousands of rounds being fired, only Carl's bean gun finding a target. OKay okay, no prob... at least the Gov will get munched any second.... oh f'ing hell. :mad:

[rightwing401]

I personally hated how this season ended. Once the final credits had run their course, I stared dumbfounded at the screen and literally yelled at my tv "What the f%ck did I just watch!"

I haven't felt this let down since I first walked out of the theatre after watching Land of the Dead, wondering to myself how this could have happened.

After all of that tension building, the back and forth between the governor and Rick about how "This is going down to the last man". What do I get? A few smoke bombs, some blaring of a riot alarm, shooting a few bullets over the head, and BAM-the big prison battle's over. Did any of the writers of this episode actually read the freaking comic of the prison battle?

Where was the long drawn out war between the much more numerous and heavily armed (but far less experienced) forces of Woodbury against the smaller and less armed (but far more battle hardened) defenders of the prison. I honest to god feel like the writers sat down in colabration for the season 3 finale and said. "Hey, we ended season 1 with them barely escaping from the CDC with the explosion of a fuel air bomb, and their fates were in serious jepoardy. We ended season 2 with them barely escaping from the farm against a massive swarm of zombies and their fate again left in question. So how can we up the season 3 ending?"

"I know, we'll have the Governor gun down his own troops without there being a real battle for the prison, and Rick and company will take the Woodbury survivors in and they'll all be pals now. But we'll still have the Governor running around out there with his lackies Martinez and the unnamed black man who never speaks for conflict in season 4."

"Hot damn! Now that's a hell of a way to out do the endings for seaons 1 and 2!"

If I haven't been an avid fan of the comic, and had been salivating at the mouth for what I read on paper to be transformed into the screen, I guess this could have been a decent ending to the third season, but as someone who waited a full year to watch the battle for the prison play out, I was horribly disappointed.

[AcesandEights]

It is odd that Andrea's exit somewhat dovetails with a thought I had this weekend that Carol is becoming more Andrea than the TVAndrea ever was. At least with regards to Andrea up through the prison story arc.

(Non-spoiler) thoughts from fellow readers of the comic?

[Publius]

Especially with Michonne and Andrea's joke at Rick about "knowing how the safety works".

Yeah. The safety on a revolver? What a (surely unintentionally) hilarious way of highlighting how Andrea wasn't a fraction as smart as she thought she was.

[AcesandEights]

Fair comment mate, I suspect (hope) that most of them will be treated like the background crew in Star Trek and the like, just folks in the background who get an occasional bit to do/say...apart from the woman that survived the governors massacre (Karen), she had a few bits to say this season as a Woodbury-ite, I suspect she will get a bit of focus next season as well...speaking of which, was it her son that Carl nailed? That will probably cause a few problems down the line.

Edit: She's pretty damn hot actually, the more screen time the better :)

Yeah, she is attractive in a very nice, real way--I like!

As far as new characters, well, I agree they definitely need some new blood. Should be interesting who and what comes out of the "population transfer."

[Moon Knight]

After giving it some serious thought I came to the conclusion that I really dug this episode overall.

Some cool moments throughout, including:

The episode opening with the closeup of The Governor's eye to mirror 3x1. In "Seed", the episode opens with one of the walkers eye's before revealing the monster behind it. You could say that The Governor is no different; from one type of monster to another.

I loved the bit when Hershel left the paragraph from the bible highlighted for all to see haha

Carl is pretty much taking the advice that Morgan gave him back in 3x12. "Never be sorry."

And finally, like someone mentioned above, The bit between Rick and Andrea before her death was great. Michonne included.

[JonOfTheShred]

The whole thing was just strange if you ask me. It's like everyone turned into these big soft bleeding hearts except Carl. Like it was a Walking Dead Easter Special. I'm surprised they didn't try to invite the woodbury forces in for a baked ham and some deviled eggs.

:elol: Walking Dead Easter Special, that would be awesome!


Michonne, being this hard edged warrior, suspicious of everyone and everything, just completely understands why Rick tried to hand her over to the Gov, and she holds no hard feelings.:confused:

Daryl, his heart is just warmed like butter over merle dying, and has no suspicions toward anyone for anything.:confused:
(We musta missed the scene where CSI shows up and does a detailed analysis of what exactly happened during Merle's battle, and explains his motivations and thought process, and shows the iPhone video of the entire battle from all perspectives.)


Valid points. I think Michonne has been heading for this direction since Clear, really. She might not have even fully believed Merle when he told her Rick was gonna hand her over to the Governor. And the type of person Michonne is, she probably UNDERSTOOD why he had to consider such a terrible thing. Hell, she might have even admired him for his callousness in the situation to a degree, considering how she operates in a similar fashion.

As for Daryl, I agree, we didn't really have any time to watch him mourn or grieve, besides the end of last week. But he knew exactly what happened to Merle - he's not stupid. He is by far one of the smartest characters on the show, even if it's only "street smarts" he always seems to be a step ahead of everyone else when it comes to logic and reasoning. I bet Daryl knew the second he saw Michonne alone, what had happened. The whole scene of carnage Merle left behind was an even stronger indication of what happened a few hours earlier. I don't think it would have been logical for Daryl to blame the group, but if he becomes more introverted in Season 4 I wouldn't be entirely surprised.


I'm surprised they didn't have a wedding ceremony for Glen and Maggie, then an easter egg hunt afterward. With the specters of Shane, Lori, Andrea, and Merle looking on with affectionate smiles, and Rick seeing them and staring off with a similar smile, while everyone else breaks out into song as the end credits roll.

:elol: That would be awesome! They should have done that for April Fools, and then aired the real finale next week.


You got Glen and Maggie up on the catwalk firing at the feet of the attackers while screaming "get out of here". Yeah, that's an appropriate response to a group of blood thirsty thugs showing up with the intentions of slaughtering everyone inside.
The Gov slaughters his own people, but doesn't manage to even wound a single person at the prison after showing up with a huge arsenal? C'mon??

I agree with you, Glen and Maggie should've been shooting to kill. I get the impression they noticed women and children amongst the soldiers, and decided to opt out of the 'Killing Spree' to broadcast to the citizens themselves their true nature - not blood-thirsty killers, but people trying to survive. Having said that, Maggie and Glen STILL should have attempted to take out some of the more obvious henchmen types, like the unnamed black dude or Martinez or even Allen. They should have been aiming for the Governor if you ask me, but clearly the writers have more in store for the Governor. He only just now has gone crazy to the point of the comics.

And the reason Gov Gov didn't kill anyone in the prison raid is because they were hidden away. If they had snipers stationed in the guard towers, then they WOULD have killed people. It's not like their attack was completely fruitless - they fucked up Prisons guard towers. And they even cleared out a bunch of walkers for them. ;)


What happened? Did Herschel hold such a touching bible study for everyone that they had this huge change of heart and decided that killing was totally wrong, even in defense of their own lives?

I read it more as a sarcastic, snarky insult than anything. And I fully realize Hershel didn't intend it that way, but it was too funny to regard it as anything other than something Michonne could swivel her head say "Uh uh, no he didn't!" to.


So they crafted a plan of non-lethal force in response, that just happened to work out perfectly?
And then they set out to "End this" and chase down the retreating forces of woodbury. What was their plan there? To use harsh words and pass out bibles with meaningfully highlighted passages?

:elol:


I'm glad some of you enjoyed it. But I'm just bewildered at what exactly it was that you guys enjoyed? It's starting to seem like some folks are just trying way too hard to like it, just because you feel lucky to have a zombie based TV show.

I thought the Governor wiping out his entire army was brilliant. I relished in the Milton / Andrea double death. I thought the prison assault was written in an opposite way as to what anyone would expect, and I respect that. I feel like the episode was a bit too short - if they had 20 minutes of more stuff it would've worked better. In particular, the assault on the prison did feel a bit rushed. And I would have liked to know where the Governor was off to.

I don't want a rehash of the comic in the show. I like the changes. If I want the story of the comic, I'll go read the comics. As it stands, I've enjoyed every minute of the TV show. But maybe that's just because I've toked copious amounts of cannabis before every episode.

[babomb]

http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3226275/tv-shocker-andrew-lincoln-resigns-from-the-walking-dead-citing-creative-differences-with-new-showrunner/ You guys seen this yet? Andrew Lincoln resigns from TWD for creative differences with Scott Gimple.

[JonOfTheShred]

http://bloody-disgusting.com/news/3226275/tv-shocker-andrew-lincoln-resigns-from-the-walking-dead-citing-creative-differences-with-new-showrunner/ You guys seen this yet? Andrew Lincoln resigns from TWD for creative differences with Scott Gimple.

I heard about that! They recast Rick already, too - Christopher Walken is taking over for him. Frank*ly, I'm looking forward to Season 4 of the Walken Dead.








*Darabont

[krisvds]

The best I can say about the season finale is that it wasn't the worst episode in the series and that it was, at times, pretty entertaining.
At times it felt pretty dumb too.

True, the prison assault played against expectations. I was expecting something a bit less sloppy. Like so many scenes, it must have looked pretty sweet on paper but played out on the screen it felt stupid.
The 'trap' didn't look like a trap at all and felt really awkward. The troops fleeing the prison and hardly firing back, ... Again, we are not very far removed from flat out satire here.

The Governor gunning down his army... These guys were armed to the teeth and not one of them fires back?

Really dug the Milton/Andrea scenes though. they saved the episode for me. At last we get some real suspense, some real emotion. Andrea deserved so much better that what the writers came up with this season, but her death at least was one of the best so far. A well written 'death trap' and one that i hadn't seen before in the genre.

I also like where they are going with Carl. Setting up epic discussions about which approach is best to survival in this world/retaining one's humanity echoes the best of the Shane vs Rick moments.

The prison sure is getting crowded ... May be a chance for the writers to put in a certain storyline from the comics that involved the inmates ... At least there is enough cannon fodder, zombie chow there for a governor vindication down the line.

[babomb]

That would be awesome! They should have done that for April Fools, and then aired the real finale next week. You mean the finale from 2 days ago isn't an early April fools joke? The real finale isn't on next week?:confused:

[JonOfTheShred]

The best I can say about the season finale is that it wasn't the worst episode in the series and that it was, at times, pretty entertaining.
At times it felt pretty dumb too.

I agree with you - some of it felt pretty dumb. I cringed at some of those extras that walked off the bus at the end of the episode. In particular, this one blonde haired kid looked like such a doofus.


True, the prison assault played against expectations. I was expecting something a bit less sloppy. Like so many scenes, it must have looked pretty sweet on paper but played out on the screen it felt stupid.
The 'trap' didn't look like a trap at all and felt really awkward. The troops fleeing the prison and hardly firing back, ... Again, we are not very far removed from flat out satire here.

That section did come across as sloppy. I was laughing AT the Woodbury troops, and how fast they turned tail. It was just smoked bombs, flashing lights and loud noises. Attacking them on all senses. But the way it happened did feel a bit hokey, and I still think they could have built the tension more, getting deeper into the prison.


The Governor gunning down his army... These guys were armed to the teeth and not one of them fires back?

The only person holding a gun at that point is the first person the governor shoots in the face, the random black guy. That is why they all start running - they didn't hold on to their guns when they jumped off the tracks or whatever, they were expecting just to chat with the Governor, their leader. They have no idea he is a threat, at this point. Re-watch the scene, none of those people are holding guns besides one, maybe two of them.


Really dug the Milton/Andrea scenes though. they saved the episode for me. At last we get some real suspense, some real emotion. Andrea deserved so much better that what the writers came up with this season, but her death at least was one of the best so far. A well written 'death trap' and one that i hadn't seen before in the genre.

I enjoyed it too. I agree with the general complaints about Andrea not trying to free herself enough, and stopping to chat too much, but I also didn't think this was happening over the course of hours. I took it as a half hour - 45 minute time period with all combined Andrea scenes, including her death. The time lapse didn't seem excessive to me, but that's just how I read into it.

Michonne and Andrea was a good moment. It sucks Andrea only became humbled in this last episode. I still think a better actress could have been chosen, but Laurie Holden is a good actress. Just not the right person for Andrea. Andrea from the comics was sweet most of the time. Andrea from the show was smug and condescending.


I also like where they are going with Carl. Setting up epic discussions about which approach is best to survival in this world/retaining one's humanity echoes the best of the Shane vs Rick moments.

Carl is definitely taking some influence from Shane and Morgan as well. I think he was RIGHT in shooting that kid. The kids body language suggested he did NOT take Carl seriously. If you rewatch the episode, just minutes before that we see that kid "Jody" in the prison with a nasty expression on his face. He does not look nice by any means, he looks like a little prick. Glad Carl shot him in the face.


The prison sure is getting crowded ... May be a chance for the writers to put in a certain storyline from the comics that involved the inmates ... At least there is enough cannon fodder, zombie chow there for a governor vindication down the line.

Zombie chow is exactly how I see them. A few will survive, but most should be wiped out in a HUGE zombie attack, like on the scales of the final act in a Romero film. Gratuitous feasting

[krisvds]

I agree with you - some of it felt pretty dumb. I cringed at some of those extras that walked off the bus at the end of the episode. In particular, this one blonde haired kid looked like such a doofus.

The Woodbury extras often were most cringeworthy


That section did come across as sloppy. I was laughing AT the Woodbury troops, and how fast they turned tail. It was just smoked bombs, flashing lights and loud noises. Attacking them on all senses. But the way it happened did feel a bit hokey, and I still think they could have built the tension more, getting deeper into the prison.

No kidding. So much potential to up the tension ... The dark corridors of the prison are genre gold but they were too reluctant to use it? Weird.


The only person holding a gun at that point is the first person the governor shoots in the face, the random black guy. That is why they all start running - they didn't hold on to their guns when they jumped off the tracks or whatever, they were expecting just to chat with the Governor, their leader. They have no idea he is a threat, at this point. Re-watch the scene, none of those people are holding guns besides one, maybe two of them.

You are right. I stand corrected. Those guys were all (conveniently?) unarmed at that point.



Zombie chow is exactly how I see them. A few will survive, but most should be wiped out in a HUGE zombie attack, like on the scales of the final act in a Romero film. Gratuitous feasting

:D

[Neil]

Glen and Maggie both had the chance to cut them down, including the Gov but they must've forgot what he did to them or something.
That felt like a scene out of the A-Team - A million bullets and not one person hit? The only guy shot by the scooby gang was a boy handing in his gun for the sake of Carl's limp character exploration.

Enjoyed other parts of it, but it sort of fizzled out at the end...

...and we still have the Governor hanging around with two of his gorillas... Was sort of hoping we'd get a fresh start next season.

- - - Updated - - -


I agree with the general complaints about Andrea not trying to free herself enough[

A number of times I was talking to the TV and raising my hands up in the air at her apathy to the situation! Just imagine all those times she was sitting there doing nothing (other than chatting), if she'd instead been doing something... Other than that, nice scene!

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, it was a little bit Country and a little bit Rock'n'Roll, this one.

So called "season finales" don't mean that much to us folks over this side of the pond, so I wasn't expecting WWIII or anything. But, the prison assault was a bit of a let down. The Gov wasting his folk was great, OTOH. There's no two ways about it now.

But really, why the hell did Rick and co. elect to bring back the Woodburyites to the flippin prison and not stay at Woodbury instead? That really doesn't make a whole heck of sense to me. Clearly Woodbury is the better place to be, no? When compared to a cold damp prison cell, a nice bed in a proper gaff would trump that any day of the week. Especially now, when half the town are brown bread. Sure you'd have the run of the place. Bit mad that.

Glad Andrea is gone. Holden is decent, but her portrayal of Andrea was all wrong. A thoroughly irritating character, at times I was hoping someone would punch her lights out (with her screwy face and slack jaw), although the interweb rage by some of its more limited members was ridiculous, to say the least. Like everyone else here, I was somewhat incredulous at her apparent lack of fu*k giving regarding Milton's revival (who I am VERY sorry to see go). A much better ending to that set up would have been Milton taking a chunk out of her still tied up body just as Team Prison burst through the door, as someone else pointed out.

No, not that good an episode, but not the worst either. But, I'd actually place it below 'Vatos', if I'm honest, apart from the Milton/Andrea parts (even if they were a bit silly over all).

Hopefully next year there will be an upping of the ante and a consistant run. The first half of S3 was fantastic, but the latter half left a good bit to be desired.

[MinionZombie]

Some interview snippets with Laurie Holden:
http://dailydead.com/spoilers-the-walking-dead-season-3-finale-qa-with-laurie-holden/

Particularly:

The way the scene was filmed when Andrea frees herself, it seemed like it really could have gone either way for her. Was there talk about changing her outcome?

Laurie Holden: There were two versions of that that were shot. The first one portrayed her as the ultimate victim and that was not the story that I think needed to be told or that any of us could put our shoulder behind. We went back and did another version — the final version — which is much more satisfactory. Andrea went out with grace, dignity and was reunited with people she loved and was able to voice how she felt and what was in her heart. After a tumultuous season, I’m so grateful that she was able to say what needed to be said and share that with her family.

Are you stratified with how she went out?

Laurie Holden: One-hundred percent. [Season four showrunner] Scott Gimple did the second version of her passing and I will be forever grateful to him for honoring this character and allowing her to go out with grace. What was written was perfect, organic and true to the character. It couldn’t have been penned more beautifully.

Andrea spends her last moments talking about why she didn’t kill the Governor when she had the chance. You’re a human rights activist; can you relate to her dilemma?

A: Absolutely, 100 percent. Listen, do I think it’s sad and a bit depressing that this woman got caught up in a bad situation and ended up losing her life? Yes, it is obviously a tragedy. But I truly believe Andrea’s death was not in vain. She went down fighting for the people. She believed in humanity. And at the end of the day, that is all that matters, really. Sometimes one must fall for the others to rise. And I am glad it was her and not any of the people she loved and cared for.

What do you think about your character’s arc on the show?

A: It’s been such an incredible journey; the fact that this woman who was once suicidal and had no will to live, was able to grow, evolve and emerge not only as a survivor but as a leader? That’s been such an amazing gift for me as an artist. And I feel blessed to have had a three-season run. I am truly proud of this woman’s journey; I love who she became and what she stood for at the end of the world. After losing everyone and everything, she never lost her heart.

...


I dug the finale. The fact that it wasn't another 20 minute showdown, this time against the living instead of the undead (season 2) shows that the writers aren't just pandering to mass appeal. Let's face it most people like action, maybe that's why mainstream cinema pumps out so many action movies with no character depth and lame plots.

Sad to see Milton go, definitely my favorite addition to the cast in season 3, for me he had the sensibilities of a sane Dr Logan. For reasons of personal satisfaction I wish he'd blown the piss out of the Governor, however it's great that Morrissey is coming back for more of TWD.

I think Andrea handed the torch over to Michonne in that last scene they had, although 2 action-women in the group would have been fine by me.

The Governor's reaction to the Woodbury-ites was spot on. No power and control over them, therefore they were no use to him; pop,pop,pop ! As many of you predicted, during the prison assault they bolted at the first sign of trouble.

Taking in the refugees was the right thing to do, and not just from a traditional ethical viewpoint. IMO cooperation is the key to surviving any kind of apocalypse; not John J Rambo escapades, they maybe entertaining but in reality they're bullshit. Who knows what kind of skills some of the refugees might have, and we'll never know because they're all extras. You need a group to survive, we're human beings not tigers. Everyone does what they can and nobody is completely self-sufficient. That's why we've had social structures since the year dot; yes ? The trick to surviving an apocalypse is knowing who to cooperate with.

IMO the scene with Carl shooting the kid really hi-lights this point. Assuming the kid had swallowed the Governor's rhetoric about team prison, he probably intended to pull the trigger if Carl had grabbed the shotgun. It was the Governor's last words to Milton in action; kill or be killed etc. The kid was thinking fuck it they're going to kill me anyway. No wonder he was scared, as far as he was concerned Carl and crew were psychos. I think Hershel read it wrong, and Carl not being bogged down by social conventions got it right. Ultimately though, the kid was just another casualty of the Governor. If he'd cooperated and put the gun down he'd still be alive and traded a sociopath for a true leader. Carl could have warned him though.....Little bastard ! ;)

I'm with the Day of the Dead vibe on this. The cooperators survive; the separators die. Where are Rhodes and crew now ? Sarah however is probably still sunning herself on the beach, and rightly so, she had bigger balls.

All very well said, Morto - several nails hit bang on the head. :cool::thumbsup::cool:


No-ones claiming the show doesn't have problems. Yes, some of the acting and writing at times is pretty bad but some of us have chosen NOT to focus on that. I for one enjoy the escapism in TWD universe.
I've said it before but i'll repeat it here again. I watch TWD to be entertained and I am thoroughly entertained. Virtually every week. Its only when I go online and start reading that people are bitching and moaning about this and that, that I start to question my own judgement. I shouldn't do that because it doesn't really matter what other people think. Its about MY enjoyment of the show and thats what it should be for all of us.
If I was watching week in and week out and not enjoying myself then thats a whole different matter.

Also well said. If I was so pissed off at the show all the time, I wouldn't bloody watch it (that's exactly why I gave up on the utterly inferior "The Following"). To me, getting so wound up, is an unfair exercise - you'd be making it worse for yourself because of yourself in the end. In no rational argument is TWD Season 3 deserving of the sheer vitriol from some folks.

Yet again though, this is not me (or fellow posters who share a similar opinion, such as kidgloves) saying that there aren't problems to be solved and things that could have been fixed/improved/polished.

Like kidgloves, I've been thoroughly entertained throughout, even with some legitimate areas that need tweaking/improving.


Anyway, I'm blessed with pretty low standards...or maybe it isn't low standards, just an ability to enjoy things for what they are. If any drama or action shows didn't have people making silly, illogical choices, there really wouldn't be much drama or action...Hell, look at real life, you don't see an awfull lot of rational behaviour here either!

Gently caressing his stump...

1) Don't put down your own opinion - if you feel a certain way, then own it - everyone's entitled to their opinion, even if I don't agree with everything some people say, or perhaps anything they might say. They're entitled to it, just as much as I (and you) are. Own it, Sir. Own it.

2) :lol::lol::lol: Hilariously gross. :D


@ kidgloves

It makes me wonder why the people who excessively moan about TWD still watch it every week ?

I've wondered this several times in recent weeks. :sneaky::D



Tell me about it, been worried about this guy for years :lol: :D

Ah, so you do love me! :lol:


I understand about concerns of "The Walking OAP's", but it does mean they can send stronger forces out from the prison in the future, I'm sure a few of the olds can be taught to wield a rifle and defend the home while the stronger group goes out foraging/on missions.

Food may be a problem though...I hope they looted the fuck out of Woodbury for weapons, ammo, medical supplies and other essential goodies.

That big military truck will be handy in the future as well, if a smaller scout group finds a really good stash, the truck can be sent there and really loaded up.

Many of our elders are stronger than we think. They've seen some shit in their time, they'll be able to be useful.

Military truck? I thought it was a prison/school bus? But yes - that'll definitely come in hand for looting supplies - and it can also be a great place to lock yourself in for a safe night's kip, so you'd be able to go on an extended supply run. :)

I saw a preview image with what seemed like the prison bus back on it's feet and I thought they were going to flee the prison and live on the road perhaps ... but yeah, you certainly can use that bus for very good things. Interesting that them taking the bus will now mean that Woodbury will be infested.


Well Minion you will be happy to note that I was rather moved by Andrea's last moments. Especially with Michonne and Andrea's joke at Rick about "knowing how the safety works". And Rick commenting about "their" group as her group as well. It really was a respectable way to end her character. Very honorable that she didnt want anyone else to carry the burden of doing the deed. I extremely miss Dale, and Lori and am sure I will feel the same of Andrea. Kind of disappointed that Daryl and her didnt share more personal goodbye.

TO MINION:

I am guilty of letting my expectations based off of season two finale interfere. The episode wasnt bad at all. In fact it had several great moments. Minion you were dead right about Dale's comments about losing their humanity. Many people hated Dale but I absolutely agreed with what he said. Live for something or die for nothing(Rambo, John J.) I would choose to survive the Zombie apoc but not at the expense of my character and humanity. May that cause my death? Yep but thats what I would chose. Thats just what I stand for. I know many may disagree with that and thats fine. Carls new badass attitude may allow him to live forever but what will differentiate him from the Gov? To answer your earlier question, yes I would have rescued the Woodbury folks. I recognize the strain and hardship it will add but I couldnt live with myself for leaving children and elderly defenseless. Its worth the fight.

Glad you dug that moment as much as I did. I think Daryl's a man of few words, a look is as good as anything for him ... all those "unspoken feels" and such. :)

I'm with you, I'd much rather die while trying to protect a purpose in surviving in this horrid zombie apocalypse, than allow myself to live forever as a despicable bastard. It's a moral code right at the very heart of all things TWD. I don't see how that would make you some 'bleeding heart pansy' - if some bastard's going to try and shoot me, I'd shoot them first, but at the same time I wouldn't stand idly by when someone is in need (what if you/I were the one who was in-need?) ... there's a fine moral line to be walked in this zombie apocalypse, and that's something which is hard to convey to Carl - and clearly that's part of the reason that Rick's donning his Sheriff's badge once more. The appropriate amount of fucks must now be given. :D


Yeah. The safety on a revolver? What a (surely unintentionally) hilarious way of highlighting how Andrea wasn't a fraction as smart as she thought she was.

Simply a call back to 1x02 and her first meeting with Rick, she knows damn well a revolver doesn't have a safety on it - it's just a joke to relieve the tension and share a common moment between the two of them.


After giving it some serious thought I came to the conclusion that I really dug this episode overall.

The episode opening with the closeup of The Governor's eye to mirror 3x1. In "Seed", the episode opens with one of the walkers eye's before revealing the monster behind it. You could say that The Governor is no different; from one type of monster to another.

And finally, like someone mentioned above, The bit between Rick and Andrea before her death was great. Michonne included.

1) Good man. Around the web I've seen numerous reactionary proclamations of hatred for the episode ... but many good things have initially received harsh views.

2) Ah-ha! That must be what one of the producers (IIRC, Alpert) said in an interivew. He said there was some small detail that referred to the start of the season ... I assume that's what it must be anyway. I hadn't noticed that - good spot!

3) I know. A great scene - I loved how Rick said "us" instead of "them" to Andrea. It's tugging on my heart strings right now.

[Neil]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury?

[JonOfTheShred]

The Governor would know all about Woodbury, and any secret entrances the town may have. He helped put up its defenses himself. Seeing as how he had an intimate knowledge of the town and its fortifications, I can understand why Rick would bring the people back to the prison. Not saying I agree or disagree with his thinking, but I can see why he would do such a thing.

In all honesty, AMC is just trying to wring all the worth they can out of the prison set. I really hope they surprise me and have a herd tear through it in the 2 hour premiere of Season 4, wiping out 75% of the new red-shirts in one fell swoop and forcing the group back on the road. Perhaps THEN they will try to retreat back to Woodbury, only to find it burnt to the ground.

[shootemindehead]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury?

Yeh.

:)

[kidgloves]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury?

For about a second, then I remembered how easily Rick and the gang got into Woodbury. Its setup to defend against walkers/biters not armed assaults.

[MinionZombie]

The reason they didn't go to Woodbury...

Well defended against walkers. Piss weakly defended against humans (how easily did Team Prison sneak in - very easily). Plus it's The Guv's home turf. It's easier to defend the prison too.

It's up in the air whether they'll be at the prison all season long or not - I'd imagine they'd have to scarper maybe half-way through the season ... but Kirkman also said in an interview (that I posted in an earlier response) that there'd be more new locations in this world to see. I think that's definitely key to keep things fresh - these last few episodes we've had some new locations to visit and it helped freshen things up, not-to-mention give us a better look at the world around them ... see little glimpses of stories that happened long ago ... see other parts of the lives that have long since been abandoned or snuffed out.

I do really hope we get a bumper-edition premiere for season 4, too. 3x01 kicked things off with a ruddy good bang, but I wanted it to feel like even more of an event screening, you know? I would very much like 4x01 to be an extended episode. Take note AMC & Pals. :)

[facestabber]

Anyone else question why return to the prison and not just move into Woodbury?

I think from a defense stand point, Rick is much more comfortable. The prison walls alone provide some serious security. It's not pretty and filled with resources like Woodbury but simply is safer. Hopefully the bus and vehicles are loaded with extra weapons and supplies. I def would have grabbed the govs booze stash and get shit faced once in a while.

[AcesandEights]

Yeah, kinda thought there were enough obvious reasons, or possible rationales for why Woodbury might not be a good choice, at least for now.

Hope they got some of the easier to transport equipment out of there...maybe some of the smaller solar panels and associated smaller hardware?

One more reason it sucks that Milton bit it. :(

[MinionZombie]

Aye - RIP Milton, most certainly. I really liked his character and really wanted to see him join Team Prison, but alas...

Team Prison do have themselves a 50 cal machine gun though on that HumVee (with blown out tyres), so that's a bonus, and of course they could head back to the scene of the massacre and pinch those remaining vehicles (there would no doubt be a bunch of weapons and ammo stashed in the back of those).

Get pilfering, chaps!

[Staredge]

I would think they'd have already scavenged the slaughter site, either on the way to Woodbury or the way back.

[MagicMoonMonkey]

I'm not sure whether your joking or just playing devil's advocate ? :confused:

Assuming your not joking.

If you remember Logan wasn't on that beach either, for the same reason as Rhodes. They were both nuts and out of control, albeit in different ways. IMO they both lacked the foresight to see what was required for survival. Rhodes is one of my favorite villains ever, but he was still a sociopathic wack-job. C'mon he deserted his own men when the shit hit the fan, as I said no balls. I don't think they'd even have made it as far as the beach with him in charge, and even if they had he'd have shot them all because there was no ice-cream. ;)

I'm always open to other opinions, so fire up some of those reasons why Sarah and Co should have been murdered relative to increasing the chances of surviving the ZA as a group.

We had a discussion a few year or so ago about Captain Rhodes and the real villain of Day of the Dead. It was a bit of a thread hijack by myself, but the question was asked, "Who was the real villain of DotD?"

The link below is the thread. I and 4 other folk see Rhodes in a different way to others.
http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/showthread.php?13556-From-Romero-s-films&highlight=Rhodes

Let me know yer fots, brother.

Edit: I have almost exceeded my annual post limit. Damned TWD!!! I would have had at least 400 posts if the forum wasn't rebuilt in 2006 :(

[Morto Vivente]

@ MagicMM

Cheers for the link, some interesting ideas about Rhodes on there. Only had time for a quick glance though, but I'll give them a thorough reading and get back to you via private message, ok. :cool:

[Andy]

Lastly, here's a question:

If you were Rick, would you have brought the remaining Woodburyites to the Prison, or would you have taken over Woodbury (in an equally peaceful manner)? Either way The Governor knows where you are.

Sorry but no. Im with wyld.. The younger ones who can grow into the next generation of suvivors i would consider but the older ones, no. Not my problem.

Being humane is nice and good but in a zombie-apocalypse world where the prison group was already struggling to feed themselves, realistic survival of the fittest has to come into the equation aswell.

[babomb]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I still watch after being routinely disappointed is because it's TWD. The 1st 2 seasons were great, the books were great, the potential for the storyline is exceptional.
Almost every week of this season I'd hope that things would change for the better. And on a few occasions it seemed like it was going to.
I'll continue to watch season 4 when it gets here. Because the show has earned it. I mean, they had a bad season. It happens. No reason to completely write off the show yet. The reason i gripe about it so much is because it should really be much better than this.
This is one of the iconic settings from the books IMO, the prison. It had such potential. And judging by the way seasons 1 and 2 went, I thought this season was gonna be the best yet. I was wrong. No reason to cry or swear off the show entirely. But I'm not gonna pretend it's better than it is or sugar coat my feelings about it either.

[kidgloves]

I can't speak for anyone else, but the reason I still watch after being routinely disappointed is because it's TWD. The 1st 2 seasons were great, the books were great, the potential for the storyline is exceptional.
Almost every week of this season I'd hope that things would change for the better. And on a few occasions it seemed like it was going to.
I'll continue to watch season 4 when it gets here. Because the show has earned it. I mean, they had a bad season. It happens. No reason to completely write off the show yet. The reason i gripe about it so much is because it should really be much better than this.
This is one of the iconic settings from the books IMO, the prison. It had such potential. And judging by the way seasons 1 and 2 went, I thought this season was gonna be the best yet. I was wrong. No reason to cry or swear off the show entirely. But I'm not gonna pretend it's better than it is or sugar coat my feelings about it either.

It looks to me like they've reset the prison arc with the finale. I think you're going to start seeing some of the more darker events from the comic in season 4.
Only thing that worries me about the revised creative setup is that Glen Mazzara has referred to network interference on advertisers behalf with the creative process and the show being written by committee under AMC's direction. Its even been alluded to that the last few episodes of season 3 have been retooled under Scott Gimples stewardship.
I just hope that Gimple isn't just a Network puppet.

[babomb]

It looks to me like they've reset the prison arc with the finale. I think you're going to start seeing some of the more darker events from the comic in season 4.
Only thing that worries me about the revised creative setup is that Glen Mazzara has referred to network interference on advertisers behalf with the creative process and the show being written by committee under AMC's direction. Its even been alluded to that the last few episodes of season 3 have been retooled under Scott Gimples stewardship.
I just hope that Gimple isn't just a Network puppet. Like with Andreas demise. there were 2 different versions. The one they went with was the one that was more absent mindedly dramatic.

[krisvds]

This is one of the iconic settings from the books IMO, the prison. It had such potential. And judging by the way seasons 1 and 2 went, I thought this season was gonna be the best yet. I was wrong. No reason to cry or swear off the show entirely. But I'm not gonna pretend it's better than it is or sugar coat my feelings about it either.

This. The third season was at its best when it strayed from the Prison/Woodbury storyline (clean): The rest, apart from a pretty good opening episode, to me ranged from 'entertaining' to downright goofy and stupid. Most of the time I found the second half just mediocre. Which is a crying shame given the source material.
I'll still watch next season, it's still TWD. But I hope it will be better than what we got recently. It should.

[shootemindehead]

For about a second, then I remembered how easily Rick and the gang got into Woodbury. Its setup to defend against walkers/biters not armed assaults.

Who is the Gov going to assault it with though? Marty and Black guy #4152? He's killed everyone else.

Actually, I've just had an awful thought. I hope next series doesn't suddenly see the Gov with an instant army all blindly willing to do his bidding.

[MinionZombie]

Reading about the two versions of the Andrea death scene - the first being Mazzara's, the second being Gimple's re-write - I firmly believe Gimple's version of the scene is far superior to what Mazzara's version seemed to be from what I've read about it.

[Neil]

Reading about the two versions of the Andrea death scene - the first being Mazzara's, the second being Gimple's re-write - I firmly believe Gimple's version of the scene is far superior to what Mazzara's version seemed to be from what I've read about it.
I agree... Shame it was spoiled a bit by her apparent apathy to actually staying alive...

[MinionZombie]

I agree... Shame it was spoiled a bit by her apparent apathy to actually staying alive...

Yeah, Kirkman's response to that scene being essentially 'well you don't know how you'd react in that situation' might be true in actual real-life, who knows you know? ... But this is TV, and it's going to be one of those things that people (myself included) are going to yell at the scream over. A slight tweak would have smoothed over that little bit of silliness - either have it harder for her to drag the plyers nearer to her, or have her still in-action trying to get the plyers into her hand while she was talking to Milton.

It's a teeny weeny little thing, and it could have been avoided with a teeny weeny little tweak. :p

I knew she was going to drop them on the first attempt too ... we've seen that so many times in TV/movies for decades. :lol:

[shootemindehead]

I know, but I bet you still went "oh fu*k!!!"

[Neil]

or have her still in-action trying to get the plyers into her hand while she was talking to Milton.
^^ This... Even with one or two very quick pauses, before reality kicks back in and she remembers the urgency and gets straight back on the job!

But not long periods of doing nothing... over and over... How dumb are these characters suppose to be?

[Staredge]

Actually, I've just had an awful thought. I hope next series doesn't suddenly see the Gov with an instant army all blindly willing to do his bidding.

They drive off into the sunset.....find the housing development with the guys from the bar, who remember being shot to hell........and both teams come back for revenge.

[AcesandEights]

How dumb are these characters suppose to be?

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/shane-walsh_zps976a9a81.jpg

Sorry, couldn't help it :lol:

[facestabber]

I have decided to subscribe to a state of mind that remembers 1985 until TWD began. We got 04 Dawn which I was entertained with for a couple years but kind of cringe now...lets face it, it kick started the zombie genre. Finally Romero was given a budget to capitalize on the zombie renewal. Who knew he would produce the uber crap fest that Land was. I have re-watched season three and IMO as a whole it was great story. Mistakes and lazy stuff at times, sure but I love this show.

[Ragnarr]

Not having read the comic, here's how I would've concluded season 3.

-Team Woodbury gets their collective asses kicked at the prison battle with just a few escaping including the Governor. Hershel dies herocially in the fight. A few others are wounded.

-Andrea is able to free herself just in time and in her weakened state struggles with zombie Milton, but manages to get out of the room.

-Rick, Daryl and Machonne chase the Gov and his two sidekicks all the way back to Woodbury. Daryl kills Martinez by a well placed knife throw, Machonne slays silent black henchman #4328 during the fight, and the now wounded Gov limps back into Woodbury. He goes to check on Andrea's now munched-on corpse, but just as he is about to open the door to the torture room, Andrea waylays him from behind just as zombie Milton bursts out of the torture room. The now dazed Gov is ironically munched by the very walker he created (hom nom nom), and Rick & co. arrive to find that Andrea was bitten during her scuffle with Milton.

[Neil]

Not having read the comic, here's how I would've concluded season 3.

-Team Woodbury gets their collective asses kicked at the prison battle with just a few escaping including the Governor. Hershel dies herocially in the fight. A few others are wounded.

-Andrea is able to free herself just in time and in her weakened state struggles with zombie Milton, but manages to get out of the room.

-Rick, Daryl and Machonne chase the Gov and his two sidekicks all the way back to Woodbury. Daryl kills Martinez by a well placed knife throw, Machonne slays silent black henchman #4328 during the fight, and the now wounded Gov limps back into Woodbury. He goes to check on Andrea's now munched-on corpse, but just as he is about to open the door to the torture room, Andrea waylays him from behind just as zombie Milton bursts out of the torture room. The now dazed Gov is ironically munched by the very walker he created (hom nom nom), and Rick & co. arrive to find that Andrea was bitten during her scuffle with Milton.

Not so sure about all of the other stuff, but I really like the idea of zombie Milton killing Gov!

[Ragnarr]

My reasoning for the imaginary alternate ending of season 3 is Daryl killing MArtinez with the knife throw goes back to the episode when the Gov and Rick were having that meeting. Martinez and Daryl had that pissing match while waiting outside, and Daryl threw his knife to take out a walker. Imagine the look on Martinez' face just as he's killed by Daryl using the same technique.

The scenes were Andrea is taking her sweet time freeing herself in the torture room makes no sense at all. If the threat of Milton becoming a zombie wasn't motivation enough for her to hurry, she also couldn't be sure when the Governor would come back into the room. Her compassionate delays make no sense at all. But if she could have freed herself just as Milton turned, she could have been bitten during the struggle considering her weakened physical state yet manage to leave the room to lie in wait for the Gov.

What can I say, I like irony lol.

[MinionZombie]

You know what would be good? If in the writer's room they had someone hired to just read through the scripts and go "but what about...?" or "when did this happen...?" or "just tweak this a smidge because I know the audience will whinge about this..." - to point out little teeny things that are really hard to spot by the writers themselves as they so close to their scripts, and they're also working - in-depth - on the entire arc of a season, so you've got so much going on it's easy to overlook small details, as well as not be able to see each script from the perspective of someone coming to it totally fresh and seeing it all as-is in a complete state...

...and I offer my services! :)

[Ragnarr]

I'd kill to have you on TWD's writing staff brother! Hopefully they also read HPotD and have the insight to spot talent when the see it. Meh I know. Real life never seems to work that way. It's not what but who you know that get's doors open. At least maybe their writers will cherry pick our ideas once in awhile and throw us a cudos somewhere, right? ;)

[MinionZombie]

I'd kill to have you on TWD's writing staff brother! Hopefully they also read HPotD and have the insight to spot talent when the see it. Meh I know. Real life never seems to work that way. It's not what but who you know that get's doors open. At least maybe their writers will cherry pick our ideas once in awhile and throw us a cudos somewhere, right? ;)

haha, yeah, that would be quite a fantasy moment. Thanks for the kind words, too. :cool:

As I've been delving deeper and deeper into the world of screenwriting myself ... (I'm currently refining my portfolio, so-to-speak, of scripts - I've also currently got a couple out there with production companies for consideration, a bunch of letters out approaching other companies, and I entered a competition just the other week - and then I've still got to approach representation to see if I can get an agent to back my corner and open some more doors once my portfolio is complete) ... I've been looking more and more at TWD from a writer's perspective, which has brought me a lot of joy and inspiration and "ooh, nice" entertainment along the way. It's fascinating to me to see/read/hear interviews with the writers, and key creative people, on the direction of the show - the whys and hows of putting TWD together - so yeah...

*loses train of thought* :lol::o:lol:

I definitely think a 'fresh eyes test' would be a cool process for the scripts to go through to just pick up on certain things - I get some people to read my scripts and I ask them specific questions and generally talk to them about their take on the script and I identify things that could use a tweak, or a touch more explanation (e.g. something that's very clear in the movie/tv screen in my head that hasn't quite had enough words ascribed to it on the page to fully explain an element of said image/idea) - and while I'm sure the head writer helps with some of that, they too also have the entire show/season in the head at any one time - it'd be a nifty idea to hire someone to do as I've said (with a non-disclosure agreement etc, of course). Be the fresh pair of eyes that picks up on small areas for improvement - a proxy of sorts for the audience long before it actually airs.

[AcesandEights]

You know what would be good? If in the writer's room they had someone hired to just read through the scripts and go "but what about...?" or "when did this happen...?" or "just tweak this a smidge because I know the audience will whinge about this..."
...and I offer my services! :)

I'd rather a quorum of Shootem, Krisvds, Babomb and Wyld--though in that case we might very well have another writer's guild strike on our hands soon after ;)

Script vetting....I can't even imagine the crap that probably goes on with AMC, but out of some sheer sense of perversity I'd love to know.

[krisvds]

I'd rather a quorum of Shootem, Krisvds, Babomb and Wyld--though in that case we might very well have another writer's guild strike on our hands soon after ;)



We aim to please. .;)

the top brass over at AMC should seriously consider handing scriptwriting duties over at the good folk here at HOTD for at the very least one episode per season.

We would probably be at each others throats for weeks, bickering and whatnot, after which we would hand in the best episode of the damn season.

:D

[AcesandEights]

the top brass over at AMC should seriously consider handing scriptwriting duties over at the good folk here at HOTD for at the very least one episode per season.

We would probably be at each others throats for weeks, bickering and whatnot, after which we would hand in the best episode of the damn season.


Sounds fun to me, actually! :)

[babomb]

I'd rather a quorum of Shootem, Krisvds, Babomb and Wyld--though in that case we might very well have another writer's guild strike on our hands soon after ;)

Script vetting....I can't even imagine the crap that probably goes on with AMC, but out of some sheer sense of perversity I'd love to know. I wonder about what goes on behind the scenes at AMC all the time. Because you know it's only a matter of time until the execs get their hands so far into the soup that they poison it. Could be happening right now, probably is.
I think that's the reason that the walker presence ijn the show isn't really what it should be. i realize that by season 3 the walkers would be getting slimmer in numbers. But IMO, they should've had some scenes with shitloads of walkers in seasons 1 & 2. There were some scenes where there were "decent" numbers, but you'd expect some scenes, in the city for example, where it looks like a concert of walkers is going on.
It's not something that's that big of a deal, they still pulled it off well. But I remember hearing about AMC tossing around the idea of not showing walkers very often, and instead using sound effects to convey their presence. Which just means that they're trying to cut corners for the sake of profit. I'm a capitalist, so I have nothing against profits being made, just not at the expense of quality.
It's just something that seems to ALWAYS happen in TV land, and something to watch out for.

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We aim to please. .;)

the top brass over at AMC should seriously consider handing scriptwriting duties over at the good folk here at HOTD for at the very least one episode per season.

We would probably be at each others throats for weeks, bickering and whatnot, after which we would hand in the best episode of the damn season.

:D That would be incredible!!

[Wyldwraith]

Having read all this,
The points I STILL can't get over. 1) Glenn, with the assault rifle, and a crowd of Woodburyites in his sights. This guy has been HOWLING FOR BLOOD for numerous episodes now over what was done to him and his girl, and being overall sick of living in fear. Go on calling it a minor thing if you want, but I truly believe the writers misplayed Glenn's actions in that scene. They SHOULD have had him riddle 2-3 people as they came bursting out the door en masse, and then go "Oh fuck, what did I just do?...then duck down behind cover and blind-fire off some rounds to continue the rout. Glenn had RAGE inside him...and though he's a good man, the Governor struck a nerve of his (or any real man's) much deeper than Glenn being tortured. He made Glenn helpless to protect the woman he's in love with, while she was degraded...AND the Governor USED GLENN as the instrument of coercion to degrade Maggie. Glenn WOULD have shot some people...and then, having seen them fall...I could see the rage drain out as the implications of what he just did strike home hard and fast.

2) Sort of a sub-point of #1: Daryl's brother was killed and left a Walker by these people. Maggie was all but raped by the Governor. All THREE of the people who have, by FAR, suffered the most at Woodbury's hands, and ALL OF THEM decide to take the high road and A-Team shoot-to-not-hit-it? Whoever said it left the scene bordering on satire was dead on. These were the people with solid, entrenched, REAL reasons to extract their pint of blood and pound of flesh from the people invading their home with the intent on massacring them all. Having NONE OF THEM act on the negative emotions they were feeling when offered such a picture-perfect opportunity for retribution was absurdly unrealistic. Call it internet bravado if you choose...but believe me when I say that had a man done to either of the two women I've loved in my life what the Governor did to Maggie...using ME as the means to gain her compliance in her own sexual assault....and I survived to later on get even a .1% chance of a shot I could fire hitting and killing him....I would spray a crowd of people meaning to kill me and mine just for that .1% chance of hitting him.

Show of hands men. Who's with me on this?

[facestabber]

Wylde I am with you regarding deadly force. When they entered the prison blowing up the towers and .50 rocking the prison walls, I would not be in the mood to chase them off. Had the Gov not slaughtered his own army, dimishing its power, what exactly did team prison do except teach the Woodbury force to change their tactics. And Woodbury attacks almost in single file, and bunched up which is a machine gunners dream. I would have lit em up when they were retreating and have some on the roof lobbing grenades down.

[Moon Knight]

Wyld, I usually don't agree with you BUT I have to be honest, you made a really great point this time around concerning deadly force. Imo Carl did the right thing giving the situation.

[shootemindehead]

They drive off into the sunset.....find the housing development with the guys from the bar, who remember being shot to hell........and both teams come back for revenge.

Um...that would work.

Send you CV into AMC.

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You know what would be good? If in the writer's room they had someone hired to just read through the scripts and go "but what about...?" or "when did this happen...?" or "just tweak this a smidge because I know the audience will whinge about this..." - to point out little teeny things that are really hard to spot by the writers themselves as they so close to their scripts, and they're also working - in-depth - on the entire arc of a season, so you've got so much going on it's easy to overlook small details, as well as not be able to see each script from the perspective of someone coming to it totally fresh and seeing it all as-is in a complete state...

...and I offer my services! :)

I would have imagined that that would've been part of the script editors job?

But, yep I agree completely.

I think that films and TV suffer way too much from the "wouldn't it be cool if..." syndrome, meaning that the most stupid and inane ideas are given air quite a lot of the time, when they should be called out as nonsense. The "zombie smell" thing is a personal pet hate of mine, from both the comic and the show, because anyone with a few brains would realise the problems that such an ability would raise in future scenarios, especially in tense "hiding from zombies" scenes, which were absolutely bound to happen. It's hard to believe that nobody stood up and said that it was a really shite idea.

What the likes of 'The Walking Dead' needs is a "zombie bible" and a guy who is strict on its implementation.

It seems to me though, that the series does have a fair amount of re-writing going on, the recent Andrea - Milton thing demonstrates that and even then, it left a bit to be desired. Perhaps time was running out and they had to go with what they got? I dunno. Producing a TV show is a lot harder than producing a film. There are no Stanley Kubrick style extensions to be enjoyed, that's for sure and editing can be a nightmare.

In recent years, the "wouldn't it be cool if..." syndrome has especially manifested itself continuously in cinema due to the influx of CGI. Anything is possible, when anything shouldn't be possible. The most ridiculous physical impossibilities are cast aside, because real life restrictions aren't a barrier within a computer generated environment. The list of scenes that abandon physical logic in modern pictures are as long as your arm.

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We aim to please. .;)

the top brass over at AMC should seriously consider handing scriptwriting duties over at the good folk here at HOTD for at the very least one episode per season.

We would probably be at each others throats for weeks, bickering and whatnot, after which we would hand in the best episode of the damn season.

:D

Yeh, I think we'd need a referee!

[Morto Vivente]

Having read all this,
The points I STILL can't get over. 1) Glenn, with the assault rifle, and a crowd of Woodburyites in his sights. This guy has been HOWLING FOR BLOOD for numerous episodes now over what was done to him and his girl, and being overall sick of living in fear. Go on calling it a minor thing if you want, but I truly believe the writers misplayed Glenn's actions in that scene. They SHOULD have had him riddle 2-3 people as they came bursting out the door en masse, and then go "Oh fuck, what did I just do?...then duck down behind cover and blind-fire off some rounds to continue the rout. Glenn had RAGE inside him...and though he's a good man, the Governor struck a nerve of his (or any real man's) much deeper than Glenn being tortured. He made Glenn helpless to protect the woman he's in love with, while she was degraded...AND the Governor USED GLENN as the instrument of coercion to degrade Maggie. Glenn WOULD have shot some people...and then, having seen them fall...I could see the rage drain out as the implications of what he just did strike home hard and fast.

I agree, it's a solid case for Glenn being determined to take faceless revenge on the Woodburyites, regretting it afterwards, and IMO then realizing that it's the Governor who's the real evil. Glenn has been the proverbial pressure cooker since the kidnapping. Instead of shooting some extras, I wish he possessed the skill to have taken out Allen when he was futtering around with that 50 cal. I'd happily have watched that character die twice, the expression on his face before the Guv' shot him was priceless.

Speaking of Glen being enraged for the back half of season 3. When Beth split up the fight between him and Merle, after firing the pistol she should have shouted "SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU GUYS; YOU'LL WAKE THE BABY !!" ;)

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks Morto,
And thank you for the kind words concerning your quorum idea Aces :) I know I can be infuriating at times, but the things I go on rants/tears about are elements I believe REALLY MATTER. If you notice, I'm nearly always silent about bad one-offs, so long as they don't have major long-term implications. Ie: The Governor's Vorhees-grab of Andrea in sight of the prison. Which lead to an even crappier one-off of Andrea being suicidally stupid about spending 80% of the time talking, 20% manipulating pliers. Had she devoted THREE LESS SENTENCES worth of time to pliers-work, she woulda been free and ready to drive those pliers through a smashed open ocular orbit of Zombie Milton's.

Hell, I don't even think I'd need actual editing powers to improve TWD episodes. Give me ONE peremptory veto per episode script. One thing I can just say "No, this disappears from the script in any and all forms, never to be seen again in this show" and I guarantee I could weed-whack a solid 62.5% of the maddening inconsistencies and poor plot-work. Though I love your other three Quorum choices as well. Gave me a strong right-hand like-minded ally in Babomb, and two strong-willed people with different values/perspectives from the two of us to make it into a Darwinian process. Nice ;)

[AcesandEights]

Having read all this,
The points I STILL can't get over. 1) Glenn, with the assault rifle, and a crowd of Woodburyites in his sights. This guy has been HOWLING FOR BLOOD for numerous episodes now over what was done to him and his girl, and being overall sick of living in fear. Go on calling it a minor thing if you want, but I truly believe the writers misplayed Glenn's actions in that scene. They SHOULD have had him riddle 2-3 people as they came bursting out the door en masse, and then go "Oh fuck, what did I just do?...then duck down behind cover and blind-fire off some rounds to continue the rout. Glenn had RAGE inside him...and though he's a good man, the Governor struck a nerve of his (or any real man's) much deeper than Glenn being tortured. He made Glenn helpless to protect the woman he's in love with, while she was degraded...AND the Governor USED GLENN as the instrument of coercion to degrade Maggie. Glenn WOULD have shot some people...and then, having seen them fall...I could see the rage drain out as the implications of what he just did strike home hard and fast.

2) Sort of a sub-point of #1: Daryl's brother was killed and left a Walker by these people. Maggie was all but raped by the Governor. All THREE of the people who have, by FAR, suffered the most at Woodbury's hands, and ALL OF THEM decide to take the high road and A-Team shoot-to-not-hit-it? Whoever said it left the scene bordering on satire was dead on. These were the people with solid, entrenched, REAL reasons to extract their pint of blood and pound of flesh from the people invading their home with the intent on massacring them all. Having NONE OF THEM act on the negative emotions they were feeling when offered such a picture-perfect opportunity for retribution was absurdly unrealistic. Call it internet bravado if you choose...but believe me when I say that had a man done to either of the two women I've loved in my life what the Governor did to Maggie...using ME as the means to gain her compliance in her own sexual assault....and I survived to later on get even a .1% chance of a shot I could fire hitting and killing him....I would spray a crowd of people meaning to kill me and mine just for that .1% chance of hitting him.

Show of hands men. Who's with me on this?


It doesn't grate on me too badly (perhaps I've been immunized by too much brain dead TV over the years), but I definitely agree. They missed a golden opportunity to push someone's character developmentally, and also made the whole life or death aspect of the Woodbury-Prison conflict rather toothless.

Do you think they didn't want to make a very bloody confrontation at the prison to highlight the death of the kid at Carl's hands?

I figure it's a possibility, but personally, I doubt the writer's have that sort of foresight.




Thanks Morto,
And thank you for the kind words concerning your quorum idea Aces :) I know I can be infuriating at times, but the things I go on rants/tears about are elements I believe REALLY MATTER. If you notice, I'm nearly always silent about bad one-offs...

Wyld, your and everyone else's thoughts on the shows are always enjoyable to read, whether I agree or disagree on a given issue, it all makes for fun TV viewing and after-show mulling-over. I'll definitely miss these little episode dissections (evisceration, sometimes ;)) till next season rolls around :(

[MinionZombie]

Oh, the writer's have foresight - that's kinda the point in being a writer as you have it all laid out in advance ... the problem was that a few elements could have done with being juggled around in a slightly different order (which is a different issue in itself, and easy to overlook when juggling everything and working to a script schedule) ... but then even still, if you move certain things, in the context of everything else happening, it can easily prove to be tricky to find a new place for said moment.

You could have possibly had Carl killing the teen at the very end, but the scene generally wouldn't be in a climactic enough position to be the last minute of the season (as well as the fact that there was an awful lot of other business to tend to after that point) ... besides, the mournful musical montage at the end was really quite satisfying - that felt more like a capping off.

It's a tricky thing really, any way you cut something, the remaining elements are going to be affected, so you have to plop yourself down one way or another and allow the chips to fall where they must.

As I've said before, the majority of the back-eight works, there's just a handful of elements/ideas that are awkwardly placed - and therefore you end up with a situation like 3x14 - but in order to make those handful of elements work, you'd have to re-structure the entire back-half ... ... and you could, ironically, end up messing around with the pacing of something that was previously just fine. It's a minefield, alright.

...

One thing I'd certainly like to see in Season 4's script is more time passing between episodes - the events of season 3 essentially happen over what seems to be 2-3 weeks (perhaps even less) ... that's a pretty short time, and as-such you can sometimes feel like you're not progressing as much as you are when watching it week-to-week. 2x01 through 2x07 is one week in show-time.

I'd like to see it so that at least a few days is between most episodes, or even up to a week or two between episodes, with only some episodes being quite tightly place within the in-show timeframe. I think you could, in doing that, skip over some of the functional time-filling elements, so you have a bit more time left over for some other business. It'd be nice for some of the challenges and themes facing the characters to have the time to sink into their heads off-screen, and then we viewers join them when they're a little bit more ready.

I don't know, it's hard to explain ... but simply and generally put - more time passing between most episodes, please.

...

@Shoot, RE: Script Editor - quite right, that probably is part of their remit ... although they should pay a little closer attention to some of those things. Maybe get someone to specifically look for those kind of things, as I'd imagine a script editor's job is also quite wide-ranging in terms of overseeing the story and plots etc ... but aye.

[kidgloves]

Photos of the alternative scene where Milton kills and eats Andrea

http://horrorboom.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-02-at-4-12-26-am1.png?w=560

http://horrorboom.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-02-at-3-40-39-am.png?w=560

http://horrorboom.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-02-at-4-15-25-am.png?w=541&h=261&crop=1

[facestabber]

Wow cool photos. I'm sure if that was the scene Andrea was cursing Dale for the CDC guilt trip. I prefer what we got though

[aceofspades]

Merle....freekin' Merle.

[rongravy]

Wow, Milton is a messy easter...

[shootemindehead]

It sorta looks camp.

[Morto Vivente]

I agree with facestabber. What we got was better.

Anyone think Milton looks a bit like Edward from the League of Gentlemen in that first shot ?

[MinionZombie]

hehe, it was funny watching those behind the scenes videos (well, apart from when it got sad because Laurie Holden was shooting her last scene, and the likes of Nicotero were visibly bummed out when talking about it) ... but the bit with Dallas saying that he really enjoyed being a zombie was rather entertaining. :)

[Neil]

-Rick, Daryl and Machonne chase the Gov and his two sidekicks all the way back to Woodbury. Daryl kills Martinez by a well placed knife throw, Machonne slays silent black henchman #4328 during the fight, and the now wounded Gov limps back into Woodbury. He goes to check on Andrea's now munched-on corpse, but just as he is about to open the door to the torture room, Andrea waylays him from behind just as zombie Milton bursts out of the torture room. The now dazed Gov is ironically munched by the very walker he created (hom nom nom), and Rick & co. arrive to find that Andrea was bitten during her scuffle with Milton.

Sorry! Have to say what a great idea it would have been for Milton Zombie to have killed the Gov!

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Photos of the alternative scene where Milton kills and eats Andrea

http://horrorboom.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/screen-shot-2013-04-02-at-3-40-39-am.png?w=560

Is that a chain around her kneck?

[Morto Vivente]

Is that a chain around her kneck?

According to Dallas Roberts in a cut version of the scene, a dying Milton was attempting to strangle Andrea in order to prevent himself from eating her alive, following his reanimation. However, due to his weakened state caused by blood loss he failed.

[Ragnarr]

I was a bit put off that weeney Milton the walker apparently overpowered the unbound Andrea enough to taste blonde, but then rationalized the scene thinking she was already in a weakened state by whatever the Gov did to her prior. Milton was a weeney while alive, so I'd think he'd be much "weeney-er" when dead.

In agreement to it being odd Glenn not being able to mow down several Woodburians during the prison fight. Like I said earlier, looked like a scene from the old tv show "A-Team" lol. Forever shooting, always missing. Perhaps the writers didn't want "the good guys" looking like psychotic heathens filling the dooped but otherwise innocent Woodburians full of revenge holes.

For the love of gawd TWD writing staff! Hire some of our HPotD posters already! :cool:

[Tricky]

I think if Glenn & Maggie had been able to gun down a load of the Woodbury folk, then it would have lessened the impact of the governor doing it. I think it generally worked. When I'm paintballing I'm a decent shot but its generally hard to hit someone accurately when they're also shooting at you....

[Ragnarr]

You're spot on Trick. I was watching some documentary about whatever, but remember a part in it about training policemen to shoot under the pressure of hypothetical return fire. First they fired without any added pressure whatsoever, then with. BIG difference in bullet placement on the target obviously the stressed rounds being much worse than the relaxed rounds.

While I've never personally been in that situation, I'm a bit confused by this difference. I mean it's not like anyone can see incoming bullets and duck them lol. Perhaps it's the mental stress of hearing the bullets whizzing past your head. Says a lot for using flame throwers or shotguns, eh? ;)

[shootemindehead]

There's always a huge difference with shooting in a live fire zone. I remember reading ages ago a stat that suggested that even with trained soldiers firing in combat, only the extreme minority are actually firing at anything at all. Most are firing blindly and others are taking cover and not firing at all.

[MinionZombie]

It's kinda funny ... complaints about them being super accurate in 2x13, now complaints about their aim being more realistic.

I think it's also more of a scare tactic, rather than seeking to slaughter anyone - scare them off, like.

[Wyldwraith]

That was the heart of the complaint though,
Those three had every tangible, human reason to be shooting to kill, and only a milk-sop campfire-sing-along sort of happy-happy view of the protagonists to justify them A-Team'ing it. I'll go one further than not aiming to kill....I believe, given that they were using automatic weapons, and given that they were using those weapons WELL WITHIN the ideal kill-zone of said weapons, that it would have taken WILLFUL ACTION to AVOID hitting Woodbury invaders. Three people spraying a position lower than them, from a short distance away were (IMHO) more likely to score at least a few hits or ricochet-hits while "blind-firing" than not. To hit NO ONE in that mass of bodies charging directly past them? The only thing that makes sense is for whatever reason(s), however ill-advised, they were trying to miss.

As I watched the scene, I found myself thinking "Wow, I wish having sex one time fixed major emotional conflicts I've struggled with for deeply validated reasons, like it obviously has for Glenn/Maggie."
However, to complete that picture we're being asked to believe that Merle's once-in-his-life selfless act of brotherly devotion...which resulted in his being killed and left a Walker, for Daryl to find and have to put down, somehow engendered in Daryl feelings of mercy that fly 180-degrees in the face of the pragmatism which has been his trademark. Why? HOW???

So far as the accuracy-under-fire issue...that isn't applicable here, since not only weren't the Woodburyites shooting back, they were caught completely by surprise. Glenn/Maggie/Daryl had the picture-perfect opportunity to choose to begin firing at the most ideal/effective moment, with the opposition none the wiser as to their whereabouts until they started shooting. Honestly, assuming you took the weapon off safety for them and otherwise left it in a ready-to-fire state....I think someone who had never held a gun in their lives COULD have hit Woodburyites in that situation.

[MinionZombie]

As the Woodburyites fled the prison, they were shooting back ... it might have mostly been The Governor, but regardless of who it was, return fire was coming. Plus it can't be easy getting an accurate aim wearing riot gear, having that plastic-shielded helmet on, and firing through a chainlink fence at people below you when you're hiding behind kinda clunky cover.

[Ragnarr]

If I was writing the screenplay, I would have at least had a few grazing wounds on both sides of the battle. It's not a big point for me the way they handled it though. I'm more annoyed that the Gov didn't get what I expected he would. Then again, him living is more realistic than the nice, neat "bad guy gets killed" conclusion we see in just about every movie and television show. C'mon season 4! ;)

[Wyldwraith]

Eh,
I still maintain that TWD needs to find a workable middle-ground somewhere between Action Hero and Designated Red Shirt. These wild swings from sharpshooters to can't-hit-the-ground-if-they-fell are taking away from what are supposed to be tense, edge of your seat scenes.

Just saying that the writers need to find a relative level of firearms accuracy they're happy with from each character and stick to it unless there's a compelling reason not to. (The person is wounded, under heavy fire, their attention is divided between both Walker and human threats etc etc.) As it stands I have NO feel for who's good with a gun beyond Rick, and good with his Xbow Daryl...because there's no sort of consistency amongst the others. I think we can all agree that in two very similar combat situations, a character's performance should be relatively equivalent, right?

This wasn't a real big deal for me until the story developed non-immersive inconsistencies due to this issue. Now it's something I'd just like to see some consistency on come next season.

[Legion2213]

Eh,
I still maintain that TWD needs to find a workable middle-ground somewhere between Action Hero and Designated Red Shirt. These wild swings from sharpshooters to can't-hit-the-ground-if-they-fell are taking away from what are supposed to be tense, edge of your seat scenes.

Just saying that the writers need to find a relative level of firearms accuracy they're happy with from each character and stick to it unless there's a compelling reason not to. (The person is wounded, under heavy fire, their attention is divided between both Walker and human threats etc etc.) As it stands I have NO feel for who's good with a gun beyond Rick, and good with his Xbow Daryl...because there's no sort of consistency amongst the others. I think we can all agree that in two very similar combat situations, a character's performance should be relatively equivalent, right?

This wasn't a real big deal for me until the story developed non-immersive inconsistencies due to this issue. Now it's something I'd just like to see some consistency on come next season.

Interesting point about the pack of shootists we seem to have, the only one who can't shoot is Tyrese...everybody else seems to be very proficient, that said, they are a good year into zombiegeddon now, so if your life depended on it, I suppose you would learn pretty fast (or get chomped).

It might be better to establish people being comfortable with certain weapons, although it might get be a bit too much detail...I suppose this is easier to do in written form, a page of text can tell us that a character favours a certain firearm due to size, feel weight etc...done on screen, it simply becomes a bit of a corny info-burst/clumsy exposition.

[facestabber]

Eh,
I still maintain that TWD needs to find a workable middle-ground somewhere between Action Hero and Designated Red Shirt. These wild swings from sharpshooters to can't-hit-the-ground-if-they-fell are taking away from what are supposed to be tense, edge of your seat scenes.

Just saying that the writers need to find a relative level of firearms accuracy they're happy with from each character and stick to it unless there's a compelling reason not to. (The person is wounded, under heavy fire, their attention is divided between both Walker and human threats etc etc.) As it stands I have NO feel for who's good with a gun beyond Rick, and good with his Xbow Daryl...because there's no sort of consistency amongst the others. I think we can all agree that in two very similar combat situations, a character's performance should be relatively equivalent, right?

This wasn't a real big deal for me until the story developed non-immersive inconsistencies due to this issue. Now it's something I'd just like to see some consistency on come next season.

Completely on board with ya here Wyld.

And for the record I am going through some painful TWD withdrawl

[MinionZombie]

Something I would like to see from season 4 - more time passing between episodes - because, think about it, season 3 takes place over what, 2 weeks? If that? And yet at the start of the season (and, of course, production schedule) it's the start of summer and it looks hot-as-balls ... then by the end of the season there's shots of their breath in cold air, they've got jackets on, and the leaves are turning brown and starting to fall.

It's not something you notice that much watching it over the course of several months when it originally airs, but when you stop and think about it for a second, it is a smidge distracting, heh. I've been wanting them to put a bit more time between episodes (variable amounts and whatever suits best - it could be a minute, it could be a week, whatever) and hopefully they will in season 4. It's not a huge deal, but it is a small tweak I'd like to see employed.

[Wyldwraith]

I'd think that some time-jumps will be almost mandatory given the end of season 3,
They took in all the Woodbury dead weight, and no one is going to want to watch then scrounge for Depends and Insulin and whatever else...so there will most likely be a skip forward like there was for the beginning of Season 3. How'd they been on the move all winter after Herschel's place fell.

With the Woodbury/Prison pingpong done, there's every reason to think that the interval of time during which the season occurs will lengthen. They kept is so short because they had to maintain the continuity betweeen two opposed yet linked communities, due to the aforementioned visual ping-ponging. With a singular focus return, and hopefully all efforts to sabotage the show over (I really don't have much more foregiveness for junk like the TG's silent killer grab of Andrea. They've had 3 seasons to set the tone and find their feet as regards pacing/atmosphere etc...it just sucks that the average Ebola victim has a longer expected survival time than a TWD showrunner.

[MinionZombie]

I'm talking between episodes within a season, not between seasons. I already dig the time-jumps between seasons (and I've read that there will be another time-jump between season 3 and 4, and I presume it'll be the same sort of length as before) ... what I'm specifically talking about though is wanting more time between individual episodes. Also, like I said, in a way that makes sense - so you can have two episodes take place on the same day or within minutes of each other, but I would like the fourth season to be paced over a longer period of time in that universe (as opposed to a couple of weeks) - in a way that makes sense.

Of course, the pacing of the first three seasons dictated that the in-show time period be brief, and it works and is necessary to tell those stories (although it did in-part lead to the "we're going to war, but first we're gonna talk about it for three episodes" situation in the back-half of season 3 ... the attack is going to come quickly, not in a few weeks, so they can only fill those remaining episodes with events over a very short period of in-universe time ... which got a little troublesome - 3x14 being the main culprit) - generally though, fair enough - I'd just like to see more in-universe time pass over the course of the 16 episodes of season 4.

You could maybe hit more of the 'sweet spots' more readily, and be able to shrug off some of the strictures of a more compressed in-universe time-frame when you want to ... if that makes sense? :)