TWD 4x04 "Indifference" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The fourth episode of season four! We're half way through this stint of episodes, and a quarter of the way through the whole season.

Please keep all talk of episode 4x04 "Indifference" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Enjoy!


Episode 4.04: “Indifference” - The supply mission faces hurdles; the situation at the prison worsens. Directed by Tricia Brock, Written by Matt Negrete.

Directed by the lady who did "Clear", so I'm looking forward to this one. She's doing two episodes this season.

[kidgloves]

Infection, Isolation and now Indifference. Hmmmm. Wonder of it means anything?

[krisvds]

Infection, Isolation and now Indifference. Hmmmm. Wonder of it means anything?

Maybe the writers are really into Joy Division, The Cure, and such ? :p

[MinionZombie]

The next episode's title also begins with an "I", but after that the alliteration stops.

[Moon Knight]

Glad it's ending. Too many one word titles in a row kinda annoys me for some dumb reason. Not too mention they all start with an "I".

[babomb]

Daryl dies tonight.

[JonOfTheShred]

Daryl dies tonight.

RIP Daryl

[babomb]

Great episode!

Had everything I like to see. It was mission based, but it still contained the right amount of drama and character depth. See! It's possible!

Reminded me alot of 18 Miles Out with the ending where Tyreese is looking out the car window at the rural landscape.
It's like a breath of fresh air to be out of that fucking prison! Even if it's just for an episode...

Don't know what to say about Carol. I don't think we've seen the last of her.
There's that scene they keep showing with the pile of burning bodies and Daryl, Rick, Maggie, Glenn, and Carol are standing there. So unless that's a deleted scene or something, Carol ends up back at the prison. Maybe she encounters the herd and comes back to warn everyone?

[JonOfTheShred]

Yea that was a great episode. Post-apocalypse journeying is a lot funner to watch than the "hunkering down in fortress" stuff that is a bit too prevalent in the genre. So long as you keep the atmosphere intense, you can literally just scatter news papers in an office building, have the characters walk cautiously through the set and play some creepy synth music, and it's engrossing television.

I like where this season is going.
They've had interesting zombie gags; ceiling zombies, infected zombies, zombies bursting through the hedges, zombies taking down fence, massive herd.
They've gone darker and bleaker in tone, reminding me of nuclear fallout movies, what with the sickness and quarantine.
Each episode has had a hook to bring you into next week, much like the comic. Harry Potter collapsing, the burnt corpses, the horde / Carol reveal, and now Carol getting banished.

Hope the tension keeps ramping up. Half way to the break

[facestabber]

Wow. Carol. When she reached for the door handle and it was locked I knew something heavy was coming. Leadership sometimes sounds cool on paper and war movies but it comes with a heavy burden to bear. It obviously hurt Rick to do that. I myself was sad. Experiencing Carol from season 1 till now I will always root for the core group to survive and do well. But just a damn good episode. As mentioned above, breath of fresh air to be the fuck outta the prison.

[bassman]

Great episode. Probably my favorite of Season Four thus far.

While Carol being left behind is obviously the biggest focus of the episode, I can't help but think more of Daryl's "gangsta" moment with Bob while thinking of this episode. I'm not even a big fan of Daryl like some, but man....that had me cracking up....

[Moon Knight]

I think that's the angriest we've seen Daryl since his first appearance.

Loved the episode and how Rick was analyzing Carol between all of their conversations. Almost as if he was testing her by her responses. Sophia; nothing more than someone's slideshow? Damn, did she ever go cold or what?
Rick thought about it, went through all the options, and made a hard decision. Carol lost in the end.

Great stuff.

[babomb]

Rick really didn't have the right to do what he did. He should've given her the choice of leaving on her own, or being judged by the council.
He's doing the same thing he said she didn't have the right to do. Make decisions like that. Rick retired the Ricktatorship in favor of the council. How is the council ever gonna be a legitimate entity if people keep making decisions on their own, outside of the council?
All the other members of the group should be pissed off that Rick acted without taking things up with the council. After all, isn't that what the council was created for? To make decisions on the behalf of the group as a whole.

[bassman]

Rick really didn't have the right to do what he did. He should've given her the choice of leaving on her own, or being judged by the council.
He's doing the same thing he said she didn't have the right to do. Make decisions like that. Rick retired the Ricktatorship in favor of the council. How is the council ever gonna be a legitimate entity if people keep making decisions on their own, outside of the council?
All the other members of the group should be pissed off that Rick acted without taking things up with the council. After all, isn't that what the council was created for? To make decisions on the behalf of the group as a whole.

It was clearly stated what might happen if "The Council" found out about Carol's actions. Sasha is part of the council, she tells Tyreese, then Tyreese murders Carol. One problem on top of another. Rick tried to end it in the best way he could. Although....it's pretty obvious that Carol will come back around sooner or later. Rick still has to go back....

[babomb]

I think that's the angriest we've seen Daryl since his first appearance.

Loved the episode and how Rick was analyzing Carol between all of their conversations. Almost as if he was testing her by her responses. Sophia; nothing more than someone's slideshow? Damn, did she ever go cold or what?
Rick thought about it, went through all the options, and made a hard decision. Carol lost in the end.

Great stuff. I don't personally see what she said about Sophia as her going cold. I understand what she's saying completely. It's not cold, it's a necessary decision. As someone who's personally had an immediate family member murdered, I made that same decision myself. It's not something that people understand well unless they've actually been in that position and chose to see it that way.
When something like that happens you can either keep it real close and let it effect your life and how you live it, or you can choose to not allow it to be the thing that defines your existence. Choosing the latter doesn't mean you've grown cold or that you don't care. It means you make a conscious decision to regain control over your thoughts and actions and not let something that happened in the past control your future.

That doesn't usually happen for years after the event, but in that world it would have to happen faster or it would effect your ability to survive. You still have to wake up everyday. And the walkers don't give personal days or short term disability. You either cope and live, or you don't. It's a personal decision.
Bob is a good example of what happens to people who don't make that decision. He self medicates to cope, it effects the decisions he makes and his relationships with others. If he doesn't face that shit, he's not gonna make it.

[zomtom]

Rick really didn't have the right to do what he did. He should've given her the choice of leaving on her own, or being judged by the council.
He's doing the same thing he said she didn't have the right to do. Make decisions like that. Rick retired the Ricktatorship in favor of the council. How is the council ever gonna be a legitimate entity if people keep making decisions on their own, outside of the council?
All the other members of the group should be pissed off that Rick acted without taking things up with the council. After all, isn't that what the council was created for? To make decisions on the behalf of the group as a whole.

Totally agree with you!! It seems Carol has become the cold and calculating one this year. Wasn't that Rick last year? Who the hell is he to make decisions on somebody's fate? I remember him serenely driving by the "backpack guy last year" without even looking back. Then on the return trip, he had the audacity to stop and pick up the dead guy's backpack. That was cold!! Who the hell is he to judge?? I hope Daryl, Hershel and some of the others rip into him for his decision. It WASN'T his to make. That is why they have a council. I just hope Carol makes a comeback. I know he meant well but he was still wrong!!

- - - Updated - - -


Rick really didn't have the right to do what he did. He should've given her the choice of leaving on her own, or being judged by the council.
He's doing the same thing he said she didn't have the right to do. Make decisions like that. Rick retired the Ricktatorship in favor of the council. How is the council ever gonna be a legitimate entity if people keep making decisions on their own, outside of the council?
All the other members of the group should be pissed off that Rick acted without taking things up with the council. After all, isn't that what the council was created for? To make decisions on the behalf of the group as a whole.

Totally agree with you!! It seems Carol has become the cold and calculating one this year. Wasn't that Rick last year? Who the hell is he to make decisions on somebody's fate? I remember him serenely driving by the "backpack guy last year" without even looking back. Then on the return trip, he had the audacity to stop and pick up the dead guy's backpack. That was cold!! Who the hell is he to judge?? I hope Daryl, Hershel and some of the others rip into him for his decision. It WASN'T his to make. That is why they have a council. I just hope Carol makes a comeback. I know he meant well but he was still wrong!!

[babomb]

It was clearly stated what might happen if "The Council" found out about Carol's actions. Sasha is part of the council, she tells Tyreese, then Tyreese murders Carol. One problem on top of another. Rick tried to end it in the best way he could. Although....it's pretty obvious that Carol will come back around sooner or later. Rick still has to go back.... I get that. But she should've been given the choice. That wasn't his choice to make on his own.
It's not as if exiling Carol resolves the problem or prevents her actions from causing other problems. Tyreese is gonna be pissed that Rick handled it on his own, and the rest of the council should also be pissed that he handled it on his own like that.
It was very hypocritical. I understand the logic Rick used. I just don't agree with it.

It tells the council that Rick doesn't have faith in them to handle problems. That at any point, Rick might choose to handle things himself without talking to them.
This doesn't bode well for trust within the group.

[Publius]

I get that. But she should've been given the choice. That wasn't his choice to make on his own.
It's not as if exiling Carol resolves the problem or prevents her actions from causing other problems. Tyreese is gonna be pissed that Rick handled it on his own, and the rest of the council should also be pissed that he handled it on his own like that.
It was very hypocritical. I understand the logic Rick used. I just don't agree with it.

It tells the council that Rick doesn't have faith in them to handle problems. That at any point, Rick might choose to handle things himself without talking to them.
This doesn't bode well for trust within the group.

I agree with you. The most charitable explanation is that the meaningful looks between the two and the fact that Carol ultimately went away without too much argument were meant to convey that Carol knew what her other option was, and Rick knew what Carol preferred. At least it's not like Carol said "no Rick, give me the chance to explain myself to the council," with Rick responding "I've made my decision, and it's final." Maybe Rick will even tell the council that Carol made the choice. But Tyreese will still be pissed.

[zomtom]

Just watched the episode again (yes, I know I don't have a life) and I watched it with closed-captioning so I didn't miss a damned word. I'm not sure if I'm missing something but I'm NOT convinced Carol killed Karen and David. I honestly think she's covering for that little girl (Lizzie, I think?) whom she took under her wing. If you watch the opening scene, Carol is talking to Lizzie, while Rick is loading the car before their road trip. Rick opens that canvas full of knives and one is surely missing. The next scene has Carol asking Lizzie where her knife is and Lizzie picks up her shirt to show her. The handle sure looks awfully similar to the previous scene. Then you have Lizzie telling Carol "she is NOT weak". This is all conjecture on my part but I think Lizzie was trying to prove something to Carol and now Carol feels responsible. Plain and simple, Lizzie killed those two and Carol is covering for her. I guess we'll find out soon enough. And once again, as I mentioned earlier, Rick may have meant well but he had no right to make that decision on his own. Hell, two episodes ago, he was playing a Quaker who didn't want to touch a gun. Now he's becoming a leader? That's just messed up!!

[Moon Knight]

Well, Rick did say to her that there's a chance Daryl and others might not make it back and the sick group members perish with them. Rick didn't want Carol anywhere near Carl and Judith. It's still a controversial decision but it wouldn't be The Walking Dead if it wasn't.

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Just watched the episode again (yes, I know I don't have a life) and I watched it with closed-captioning so I didn't miss a damned word. I'm not sure if I'm missing something but I'm NOT convinced Carol killed Karen and David. I honestly think she's covering for that little girl (Lizzie, I think?) whom she took under her wing. If you watch the opening scene, Carol is talking to Lizzie, while Rick is loading the car before their road trip. Rick opens that canvas full of knives and one is surely missing. The next scene has Carol asking Lizzie where her knife is and Lizzie picks up her shirt to show her. The handle sure looks awfully similar to the previous scene. Then you have Lizzie telling Carol "she is NOT weak". This is all conjecture on my part but I think Lizzie was trying to prove something to Carol and now Carol feels responsible. Plain and simple, Lizzie killed those two and Carol is covering for her. I guess we'll find out soon enough. And once again, as I mentioned earlier, Rick may have meant well but he had no right to make that decision on his own. Hell, two episodes ago, he was playing a Quaker who didn't want to touch a gun. Now he's becoming a leader? That's just messed up!!

I could still see it go down like that.

[MinionZombie]

Crikey! Carol's been exiled! I didn't see that coming.

Another good episode - Daryl's forehead moment with Bob, he was damn mad there. He'd welcomed Bob into the group, given him responsibility, even after his confession, and then he's immediately repaid with that. I guess he knows a thing or two about addiction demons (what with Merle), but at the same time, the sheer disappointment of your trust being violated - and particularly in a life or death situation.

A fascinating episode between Rick and Carol - lots of meat to chew on there. He gave her a good shot, supplies and fuel etc, but damn ... the burden of a leader, as was said earlier.

I wonder if that guy (Sam?) will come back at some point - we didn't see him dead, right? Just the girl.

Loved the hedge walkers moment - good that they're managing to dream up inventive new moments that really stand out. I also liked them encountering 'walkers+' ... the really rotten ones that are diseased ... between a rock and a hard place and having to escape super-infection.

[Rottedfreak]

I think that girl was murdered, her leg looked like it had been cut off and surely given her disability she would have screamed.

Also that was a well maintained neighborhood Rick and Carol were in, clean cars, mowed lawns and hedges.
Maybe they should have done more like show it was a survivors camp until the flu killed them.

[kidgloves]

Extremely difficult decision for Rick, but the right one. He had to do something.

[Harleydude666]

I get that. But she should've been given the choice. That wasn't his choice to make on his own.
It's not as if exiling Carol resolves the problem or prevents her actions from causing other problems. Tyreese is gonna be pissed that Rick handled it on his own, and the rest of the council should also be pissed that he handled it on his own like that.
It was very hypocritical. I understand the logic Rick used. I just don't agree with it.

It tells the council that Rick doesn't have faith in them to handle problems. That at any point, Rick might choose to handle things himself without talking to them.
This doesn't bode well for trust within the group.

It's debatable. I'm not picking on you here Babomb or anyone who agree's with you, I just hope you're not picking on the writing, I hope it's just Rick you guys are picking on. I think the writing in this situation is beautiful to have Rick make this decision and have posters here consider him here as a hypocrite. I personally think he made this decision carefully with Carol's best interest in mind. Rick knows if he brings her back from camp Tyreese is too much of a loose cannon and Rick knows that more than anyone. And if Ty kills Carol more than all hell breaks loose and the camp ends right there. Rick knows the situation can't be controlled if he brings her back. In this case Carol has a chance because after all Rick still cares about her and peace somewhat remains at camp. But I also believe there is a certain part of Rick that he is intimidated by Carol now and does not trust her around his kids, a good point he made. I'm not sticking up for Rick because I get what you guys are saying but all the same I think he's looking at the bigger picture here.

[Moon Knight]

It's debatable. I'm not picking on you here Babomb or anyone who agree's with you, I just hope you're not picking on the writing, I hope it's just Rick you guys are picking on. I think the writing in this situation is beautiful to have Rick make this decision and have posters here consider him here as a hypocrite. I personally think he made this decision carefully with Carol's best interest in mind. Rick knows if he brings her back from camp Tyreese is too much of a loose cannon and Rick knows that more than anyone. And if Ty kills Carol more than all hell breaks loose and the camp ends right there. Rick knows the situation can't be controlled if he brings her back. In this case Carol has a chance because after all Rick still cares about her and peace somewhat remains at camp. But I also believe there is a certain part of Rick that he is intimidated by Carol now and does not trust her around his kids, a good point he made. I'm not sticking up for Rick because I get what you guys are saying but all the same I think he's looking at the bigger picture here.

Agree with this post 100%.

[AcesandEights]

I actually think Rick made a decent and pretty human (not saying humane) decision. I don't know if it's what I would have done, but I thought it was fine given his concern for his kids and doubt about Carol's reliability.

I'd have considered just keeping Carol around, as she made a ridiculously extreme decision, but is very useful and otherwise seems stable. This is only based on the assumption that her two supposed victims were as sickly and far along towards death as she claims...which I would have probed a lot more about if I had been in Rick's shoes.

I'm not too bothered about Rick making a unilateral decision in this case, as the matters back at the prison point to chaos and the last thing that is needed is more murder and mayhem.

Of course, I agree with those of you who think there's more than meets the eye in "The Case of the Two Burned Bodies".

[facestabber]

Rick takes way too much flak from the general populace. Has he been hypocritical? Yes as is every other human being I have ever met including myself. This decision was a bitch. But in a sense it was almost an agreement. Carol didnt resist much and I think she is some what scared of herself now too. Sure the ZPAW brought out a stronger person but now that her inner switch has flipped, I think she fears she cant control it. And that is probably why she left without much of a fight. She has kind of outgrown that group.

I dont hate Carol at all. Again I am partial to the original group. The media I have read have lesbians and womens rights die hards ready to kill Rick. But Rick is the man. He is the guy that the people want to lead. Even during his voluntary step down of power and farming adventure the group was still approaching him in hopes that he would return. He isnt perfect but he is the one person I would follow. I would have handled it differently. Probably took her back, and took her in front of Maggie and Hershel and have a sit down chat. I cant see either of those two going ape shit and killing her. But I cant hate the man for it going down the way it did. And heck this has given us some serious material to digest and discuss.

[Legion2213]

Grim episode, this survival existence is grinding people down, changing them (some for the better, others for the worse). All are suffering though.

Season 4 is well on it's way to being the best so far for me, I've enjoyed the Hell out of every episode, the interactions between the characters, the situations and the overall tone of the series.

Felt really sorry for Carol (even though she couldn't be allowed to just move on from what she did). For what it's worth, I thought exile when I saw Rick loading up the car at the start.

Oh, and gutted about the stoner chick, she was cute.

Edit: I'm a bit unsure about alcoholic guy now, at first I thought he was up to no good and untrustworthy, now I just think he is genuinely troubled, felt sorry for him succumbing to his weakness and getting busted by Daryl today...sort of pulling for him now, hoping he can come through and settle a bit.

[MoonSylver]

Solid episode. Didn't see Carol's exile coming. Don't necessarily disagree with Rick's decision. But as others pointed out, Backpack guy. (A decision which never, ever, sat right with me). I agree, I also think Carol is covering for the little girl.

Thought for sure Daryl was going to drop that guy off the roof after he not only loads up on hooch only (what, you can't carry a bottle of whiskey AND some penicillin doofus?), but then had the nerve to almost draw down on him.

[sandrock74]

I think a part of Rick's decision making process was him considering Daryl's away team might not even make it back. It's a very real possibility that Daryl and/or Tyresse may not be a future factor in anything, since the group could end up as zombie chow. Rick just made a decision based on what he thought would keep everyone else safe.

I also like Bob and I hope he can pull himself together. He seems like a normal guy who is just trying to cope with being in this dead world.

Here's a random thought/speculation: what if Carol hooks up with a new group somewhere else; there is the spin-off next year that we know about and she would give it a familiar face for viewers....

[MoonSylver]

From what I understood, the new show was to feature none of the same characters? Always subject to change though, I'm sure...

[facestabber]

Not sure why Rick gets all the heat for back pack guy. Michonne drove past him. Yeah(backpack) made me uneasy but war was at hand and trusting anyone outside the prison group was proving very difficult. Their state of mind was probably thinking ambush/possible bad guy but in the end Rick changed(woodsbury). He didnt put a bullet in the guy.

But that stuff with Bob on the roof. Jerk went from a hero(risking his life for a bag believed to be of meds) to a piece of shit. If I heard that right, he didnt have any meds? WTF is the deal there. But just as Moon said I thought someone may end up off the roof and into the hands of the walkers. But Stookey nearly drew down on Daryl over a bottle of booze. Alcoholism sucks and all but he is beyond thin ice. I think we saw that Daryl has some empathy for addicts.

[AcesandEights]

The media I have read have lesbians and womens rights die hards ready to kill Rick.

Hwah? Really?

[Trencher]

Wow such an amazing episode! Excellent. A bit pacing problems with going back and fourth between action in one group and talk in the other when it was really not necessary but otherwise a classic episode! Best of season four by far!
My thoughts: I suspected that Bob were the saboteur, and his witness speech and his alcoholism support that theory except for in typical Hollywood writing alcoholics are usually heroic cool guys so I guess it is going to depend on the writer.

Speaking of writer, the episode where Rick and company ignore the hiker were complacently against character and the episode in general was pretty lame especially with how weak the zombies were. That episode were more about the characters being "cool" rather than being the characters they have been so far in the show. This episode however had great acting and the characters were themselves.
Daryl have issues with alcoholics, most likely his parents were hopeless drunks and he knows how they can be.
As for Rick exiling Carol I can see it. Personally I would have shot her in front of the rest of the prison but exile is also good punishment. Now I feel bad about doing this because back in the day when we were discussing the comic I said that Rick and company should have shot the entire group of prisoners right as they met them. So how can I really judge Carol for removing a threat just as I would have removed another threat? The only difference between prisoners and the sick are moral ones and as a practical matter both are a threat. I thought about it and have come to the conclusion (or maybe just a cheap justification?) that when you take people into your group then you become responsible for taking care of and maintaining their health, dignity and rights. Others also have right to their health and dignity off course but when you get an indication of them being a threat, your own group and yourself goes first. Pretty primitive tribal mindset huh? But I suppose my only defense is that a primitive tribal mindset is still better than being a complete savage and only thinking of what is practical for yourself.

In any case it is a great show with exellent writing that makes you think! Very nice indeed. Its not often I second guess myself.

[facestabber]

Hwah? Really?

Just internet crap(as I post on here..hahaha) Im guessing her appearance and womanhood have them feeling like she is their hero.

Again I gotta say I do like Carol. Far from my favorite. But even with the writers trying hard to build her up as a leader type I would never buy it. She has some skills, but a warrior??? NO way. She still looks awkward as hell when stabbing at walkers and fighting in general. Its probably Mcbrides acting but she doesnt convince me that she could fight her way out of a wet paper bag. Her handle Tyrese? How? With words? Tyrese trusted that woman to be a caregiver and she crapped all over that.

[MinionZombie]

I think that girl was murdered, her leg looked like it had been cut off and surely given her disability she would have screamed.

Also that was a well maintained neighborhood Rick and Carol were in, clean cars, mowed lawns and hedges.
Maybe they should have done more like show it was a survivors camp until the flu killed them.

1) Yeah, I was wondering about that ... the leg did look a bit cleanly taken off ... hmmm ... a very strange one - where is Sam?!

2) The car Carol took off in had muck all over it ("Pardon Our Dust") and it was unkempt around abouts, but at the same time you can't expect homeowners to make their homes look like shit just for a TV show (they do ask if people can leave their grass uncut, but I imagine it really has to be something everyone does or it'd look weird, and you can't get 1.5 years worth of growth in the time it takes for them to find and secure a location).


Extremely difficult decision for Rick, but the right one. He had to do something.

Damned either way, really. He went Ricktatorship on this issue, screw the council, kinda thing. If he had brought her back and the truth was outed, Tyreese would have very likely killed her ... but maybe not ... but quite possibly. Had there not been the Tyreese factor, I might have brought her back, locked her up, and put the issue forth to the council.

Will Rick lie to the group, or will he tell the truth, and how will folks react? How will Daryl react, too, being Rick's right hand man (and, in some ways, practically his successor)?


"The Case of the Two Burned Bodies".

Sounds like a job for these chaps...
http://www.nowcultured.com/images/2013/10/18-goofy-south-park-characters/hardly-boys-brothers-solving-mysteries.jpg


Grim episode, this survival existence is grinding people down, changing them (some for the better, others for the worse). All are suffering though.

I'm a bit unsure about alcoholic guy now, at first I thought he was up to no good and untrustworthy, now I just think he is genuinely troubled, felt sorry for him succumbing to his weakness and getting busted by Daryl today...sort of pulling for him now, hoping he can come through and settle a bit.

It's interesting to get a look in to addiction in this sort of setting. He potentially has access to all the booze he could ever drink, but he's risking lives (Zack died as a result of Bob's bugger up) and he's thinking irrationally. At the same time though, he's got medical experience, so he's valuable - but on a run? Hell no. He's messed up big style ... although the 'head touch' thing kinda made me giggle a little bit, I'm not entirely sure why but it did, it was still a cool scene to see Daryl's take on leadership in such a situation. Full-on alpha male put-down, but with a tinge of understanding due to experiences with Merle ... but major disappointment after he put his trust (and, really, his life) in Bob's hands.


Not sure why Rick gets all the heat for back pack guy.

Hmmm, I wasn't aware of that viewpoint being out there.

Although it was all a part of Rick's dalliance with madness and distrust. He was going through some major shit at the time, but he'd come around by the end of the season. He also had bigger fish to fry with an impending war hanging around his neck.

Yeah, another satisfying episode - there's plenty of meat on these bones. :cool:

TWD 4x04 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/conflict-resolution-walking-dead-4x04.html


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-z50KWdJHHwU/UnfQ4O2IsLI/AAAAAAAACNc/544aVkbPdUQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Daryl_Bob_Michonne_ Awkward_Slow_Dance_Time_4x04_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-BrK_lkIT7us/UnfQ5a1BypI/AAAAAAAACN4/zMvunBY7dKQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Rick_Skin_Eaters_Wa lkers_Official_Term_4x04_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XB1Z_2NYcPI/UnfQ4lV0c8I/AAAAAAAACNw/qu_femQwSkk/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Rick_Carol_Watch_Tw o_Thirds_WTF_4x04_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sLs2N3UjJUY/UnfQ7qOscKI/AAAAAAAACOA/qoWGM4Mqg_M/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Rick_New_Characters _Dead_End_Episode_4x04_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IbmhjsiG_TI/UnfQ4Ci3yTI/AAAAAAAACNs/aSoiR_epUxg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Daryl_Bob_Conflict_ Resolution_Tip_Touch_Foreheads_4x04_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Legion2213]

Haha! That 2nd TWD meme is gold! Love it. :D

Think I'll watch all of S4 so far again this weekend...what a season it's shaping up to be! :cool:

[MinionZombie]

Haha! That 2nd TWD meme is gold! Love it. :D

Think I'll watch all of S4 so far again this weekend...what a season it's shaping up to be! :cool:

1) Very kind, Sir. :)

I do find it amusing how there's always a new term used by a group they've just encountered for the first time ... I do hope they stumble upon a group one day who also call them "walkers" and then Rick'll shout "SNAP!" and high five them. :lol::p:lol:

2) I'm stacking them up on my Sky+ so that once the mid-season break swings by I can have a right old marathon. :cool:

[Mr. Clean]

Yes, much better episode!

My question for everyone pissed at Rick.....With so many people out on runs, a flu outbreak, and the looming threat of zombies pushing over the fence....When the hell are they going to find the time to have an emergency meeting to make decisions?

Now with that said, let's examine the council....

The council members are Hershel, Daryl, Glenn, Carol and Sasha.

Hershel = Attending the Sick

Daryl = Out on a Run

Glenn = Sick

Carol = The Problem / Out on a Run

Sasha = Sick

------------------------------

At this point, the council is FUBAR. If you somehow feel that the group can wait a few days or weeks to have a meeting then I would like to know how that works.

One thing rings true and that is when all else fails, everyone looks to Rick for leadership. He may have had to step down as leader due to him suffering his loss of Lori but that doesn't disqualify him from taking up the Leadership position again(Should the needs of the group require him to do so).

Also, Rick's decision to exile Carol doesn't carry the same weight as her choice to murder two members of the group.....had he put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger then I would agree that he is a hypocrite. He has no right to take her life but he does have the right to expose her to the rest of the group. She wanted him to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing but he made it clear that he wouldn't so she knew she had to leave.

With the council unable to make decisions, Rick probably feels some responsibility to make decisions for the group. I would also like to point out the fact that before the council went FUBAR....he made the decision to save the prison by killing the piggies(food supply) and didn't receive any negative points for that.

There are reasons platoons and smaller groups have a "Leader" or one person in charge and not a democratic decision making process.

[kidgloves]

Wow such an amazing episode! Excellent. A bit pacing problems with going back and fourth between action in one group and talk in the other when it was really not necessary but otherwise a classic episode! Best of season four by far!
My thoughts: I suspected that Bob were the saboteur, and his witness speech and his alcoholism support that theory except for in typical Hollywood writing alcoholics are usually heroic cool guys so I guess it is going to depend on the writer.

Speaking of writer, the episode where Rick and company ignore the hiker were complacently against character and the episode in general was pretty lame especially with how weak the zombies were. That episode were more about the characters being "cool" rather than being the characters they have been so far in the show. This episode however had great acting and the characters were themselves.
Daryl have issues with alcoholics, most likely his parents were hopeless drunks and he knows how they can be.
As for Rick exiling Carol I can see it. Personally I would have shot her in front of the rest of the prison but exile is also good punishment. Now I feel bad about doing this because back in the day when we were discussing the comic I said that Rick and company should have shot the entire group of prisoners right as they met them. So how can I really judge Carol for removing a threat just as I would have removed another threat? The only difference between prisoners and the sick are moral ones and as a practical matter both are a threat. I thought about it and have come to the conclusion (or maybe just a cheap justification?) that when you take people into your group then you become responsible for taking care of and maintaining their health, dignity and rights. Others also have right to their health and dignity off course but when you get an indication of them being a threat, your own group and yourself goes first. Pretty primitive tribal mindset huh? But I suppose my only defense is that a primitive tribal mindset is still better than being a complete savage and only thinking of what is practical for yourself.

In any case it is a great show with exellent writing that makes you think! Very nice indeed. Its not often I second guess myself.


:thumbsup::cool:

I would do a clap emoticon but we don't have one

[babomb]

My gripe is that he didn't give her the choice. Because he has no authority to say that he has to detain her so she can go before the council.

Tyreese at this point is most worried about his sister. So when they do get back, that will be priority 1. If they don't make it back, thr group still has to deal with the situation. It's not as if Carol is such a threat that she might slaughter the remaining survivors when they get back.
Nobody else besides Rick knows it was Carol that burned the bodies. So if they returned, Tyreese isn't gonna immediately kill her.

There's time for the group to recover before Rick brings their attention to the Carol situation. By that time they could also take steps to prevent Tyreese from killing her.
There's nothing that proves that allowing Carol to come back will inevitably result in all out chaos. It's possible, but it's also possible that the decision Rick made will also cause some serious problems.
Like Rick said, he made that decision for himself, out of his own self interest. Not for the group as a whole.

[Neil]

Just watched the episode again (yes, I know I don't have a life) and I watched it with closed-captioning so I didn't miss a damned word. I'm not sure if I'm missing something but I'm NOT convinced Carol killed Karen and David. I honestly think she's covering for that little girl (Lizzie, I think?) whom she took under her wing.Just don't see that...

[kidgloves]

Just don't see that...

They did make a point to show that Lizzie? had a knife in the beginning and there have been other clues as well.
Im loving the mystery anyway. Never seen so much discussion on HPOTD about TWD as i've seen this season.:thumbsup:

[facestabber]

Yes, much better episode!

My question for everyone pissed at Rick.....With so many people out on runs, a flu outbreak, and the looming threat of zombies pushing over the fence....When the hell are they going to find the time to have an emergency meeting to make decisions?

Now with that said, let's examine the council....

The council members are Hershel, Daryl, Glenn, Carol and Sasha.

Hershel = Attending the Sick

Daryl = Out on a Run

Glenn = Sick

Carol = The Problem / Out on a Run

Sasha = Sick

------------------------------

At this point, the council is FUBAR. If you somehow feel that the group can wait a few days or weeks to have a meeting then I would like to know how that works.

One thing rings true and that is when all else fails, everyone looks to Rick for leadership. He may have had to step down as leader due to him suffering his loss of Lori but that doesn't disqualify him from taking up the Leadership position again(Should the needs of the group require him to do so).

Also, Rick's decision to exile Carol doesn't carry the same weight as her choice to murder two members of the group.....had he put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger then I would agree that he is a hypocrite. He has no right to take her life but he does have the right to expose her to the rest of the group. She wanted him to keep his mouth shut about the whole thing but he made it clear that he wouldn't so she knew she had to leave.

With the council unable to make decisions, Rick probably feels some responsibility to make decisions for the group. I would also like to point out the fact that before the council went FUBAR....he made the decision to save the prison by killing the piggies(food supply) and didn't receive any negative points for that.

There are reasons platoons and smaller groups have a "Leader" or one person in charge and not a democratic decision making process.


Good points. My only hope is that Rick tells the group the truth. No need to make up any stuff. His investigation led him to Carol, she admitted it. And she shows no remorse.

And Babomb you make some valid points as well. Though you were wrong(to my pleasure) about Daryl dying prediction. I dont think Tyrese would have gone gangsta rage and murdered Carol immediately after hearing the truth. I think Daryl, Michonne Tyrese and Co. would exhibit shock/disbelief. Tyrese in particular would just be crushed and in pain that someone he left to look after his sister was the killer of his girlfriend.

I will leave it with this. If Carol felt so right about her decision, why not man the fuck up when Tyrese has her boy toy pinned against the fence aggressively and dropping fists moments later to Rick. Carol is neat and all but not a leader. Take your beating if you believe you were so justified bitch....j/k The bitch part anyway.

[Neil]

They did make a point to show that Lizzie? had a knife in the beginning and there have been other clues as well.
Im loving the mystery anyway. Never seen so much discussion on HPOTD about TWD as i've seen this season.:thumbsup:

It would take a flash back to reveal the (true) events; A technique I've never seen used in this series before. And I can't see them using it.

[Harleydude666]

My gripe is that he didn't give her the choice. Because he has no authority to say that he has to detain her so she can go before the council.

Tyreese at this point is most worried about his sister. So when they do get back, that will be priority 1. If they don't make it back, thr group still has to deal with the situation. It's not as if Carol is such a threat that she might slaughter the remaining survivors when they get back.
Nobody else besides Rick knows it was Carol that burned the bodies. So if they returned, Tyreese isn't gonna immediately kill her.

There's time for the group to recover before Rick brings their attention to the Carol situation. By that time they could also take steps to prevent Tyreese from killing her.
There's nothing that proves that allowing Carol to come back will inevitably result in all out chaos. It's possible, but it's also possible that the decision Rick made will also cause some serious problems.
Like Rick said, he made that decision for himself, out of his own self interest. Not for the group as a whole.

I don't know about that dude. Carol is a very cold, calculated and dangerous person right now. I agree, she won't be able to slaughter the whole group but she could easily murder again. There is too much going on back at camp to bring that underestimated variable back there and not counting the Tyreese factor. Remember, you also have to figure Daryl will also be involved if things go wrong.
Thinking about it, it's the only way and Carol understood it also, she knows she would be killed on the spot or be sentenced to death. Rick is still the Alpha of the group and he thinks survival first and foremost, so yes he did it for himself but also for the group as much as he did it for Carol

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But to add, isn't it a beautiful thing we are discussing who is right and who is wrong when in fact Rick sentenced Michonne to death when he was going to hand her over to the Govener but changed his mind, back pack guy too
No one is exactly right here but Rick is still calling the shots and he has his major faults thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse. Look what it brought out in him and we still root for him. I like writing this year. No one is innocent in this world, they all have blood on their hands

[kidgloves]

It would take a flash back to reveal the (true) events; A technique I've never seen used in this series before. And I can't see them using it.

Not necessarily. Theres now a disturbed young girl with a knife in the isolation block. :evil:

[babomb]

I don't know about that dude. Carol is a very cold, calculated and dangerous person right now. I agree, she won't be able to slaughter the whole group but she could easily murder again. There is too much going on back at camp to bring that underestimated variable back there and not counting the Tyreese factor. Remember, you also have to figure Daryl will also be involved if things go wrong.
Thinking about it, it's the only way and Carol understood it also, she knows she would be killed on the spot or be sentenced to death. Rick is still the Alpha of the group and he thinks survival first and foremost, so yes he did it for himself but also for the group as much as he did it for Carol

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But to add, isn't it a beautiful thing we are discussing who is right and who is wrong when in fact Rick sentenced Michonne to death when he was going to hand her over to the Govener but changed his mind, back pack guy too
No one is exactly right here but Rick is still calling the shots and he has his major faults thanks to the Zombie Apocalypse. Look what it brought out in him and we still root for him. I like writing this year. No one is innocent in this world, they all have blood on their hands
She's not a murderous lunatic. She didn't murder because of bloodlust. There's no way that she would do the same thing again after knowing the response that the previous act got. Rick would also be watching her closely and wouldn't give her the chance to do it. She's a smart lady, she knows better, and the situation just wouldn't allow for it to happen again.
Maybe further down the line in another situation she might make a similar calculation. Which is a real concern for Rick, and rightly so. But at the present time, she's no danger.
I think a bigger concern for Rick is that others might not see it the same way he does. Especially if when they return to the prison the very thing that Carol was trying to prevent has actually happened. Sick people either infecting everyone else, or coming back and attacking people. If that happened then the people there to witness and deal with it might see Carols actions in a much more favorable way.
I think Rick is also a little offended that Carol is not just sitting back and letting him make the decisions. She 2nd guessed him when dealing with the 2 survivors they found in the house. And Rick was obviously a little upset by that. They made a point to show that.
Rick thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and he wants people to just do what he says when he decides to assume the leadership role. It's the cop in him.
The problem with that is that some people want to take part in their own fate. They don't want someone deciding everything. Like the 2 survivors. They wanted to take an active role in the situation. It got them killed, but that's a chance everyone takes when they do anything.
Carol takes the opposite approach. She believes that people should take an active role in their own fate, and if it kills them, that's a risk they had every right to assume. Rick is threatened by this because he's an "end justifies the means" kind of guy when he decides to play leader. Problem is he only wants to play leader when it strikes him to do so. His ways are very self serving.

I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by.
When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be.

[Moon Knight]

Not necessarily. Theres now a disturbed young girl with a knife in the isolation block. :evil:

Exactly! I could see her murdering someone else; followed by a confession.

There is an upcoming episode called "Live Bait", maybe, just maybe, someone shows up at the prison gates with Carol as the potential "Live Bait". Just sayin'.

[facestabber]

I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by.
When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be.

More good points but I have disagree a bit here. Admittedly Rick's weakness as a leader is Carl and Judith, and rightfully so. I get that as a parent. As a fan of Rick I quickly disagreed with his intention to turn in Michonne. I hated that call. That isnt Rick Grimes pre apoc and he is fighting to maintain as much integrity as he can. I understood at the time as a leader he has to consider all options but Michonne's fate should have been an option all of 30 seconds. But Rick didnt go through with it. I wont say Rick is perfect but he is the chosen leader for a reason. Though long ago he was the man that returned for Merle Dixon. Sure the guns were there and he used that as part of the reason to appease Shane and co but the selfless human in him couldnt leave even a scumbag to die like that. Maybe in the apocalypse his belief system is weak to you and others regarding survival and thats fine to feel that way but I respect the character. Rick is a good man. Carol is a good woman. The situation sucks. After all this rambling, my point simply, is I will call Rick out for bad decisions but I dont believe he is a selfish man. He has proven enough that he would die defending his friends.

[kidgloves]

She's not a murderous lunatic. She didn't murder because of bloodlust. There's no way that she would do the same thing again after knowing the response that the previous act got. Rick would also be watching her closely and wouldn't give her the chance to do it. She's a smart lady, she knows better, and the situation just wouldn't allow for it to happen again.
Maybe further down the line in another situation she might make a similar calculation. Which is a real concern for Rick, and rightly so. But at the present time, she's no danger.
I think a bigger concern for Rick is that others might not see it the same way he does. Especially if when they return to the prison the very thing that Carol was trying to prevent has actually happened. Sick people either infecting everyone else, or coming back and attacking people. If that happened then the people there to witness and deal with it might see Carols actions in a much more favorable way.
I think Rick is also a little offended that Carol is not just sitting back and letting him make the decisions. She 2nd guessed him when dealing with the 2 survivors they found in the house. And Rick was obviously a little upset by that. They made a point to show that.
Rick thinks he knows what's best for everyone, and he wants people to just do what he says when he decides to assume the leadership role. It's the cop in him.
The problem with that is that some people want to take part in their own fate. They don't want someone deciding everything. Like the 2 survivors. They wanted to take an active role in the situation. It got them killed, but that's a chance everyone takes when they do anything.
Carol takes the opposite approach. She believes that people should take an active role in their own fate, and if it kills them, that's a risk they had every right to assume. Rick is threatened by this because he's an "end justifies the means" kind of guy when he decides to play leader. Problem is he only wants to play leader when it strikes him to do so. His ways are very self serving.

I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is. They're showing us that, but people get kind of stuck in lines of thought and aren't judging his actions according to the same criteria they're judging other characters by.
When Rick makes a lapse in judgement everyone comes up with any reason at all why he should get a pass on it. When someone else makes a mistake(not always even a mistake, just a difference in thought that leads to an unfavorable act), they get no pass, everyone quickly jumps on the bandwagon to dispense opinions on what the punishment should be.

Excellent analysis. Lots of grey areas around Ricks decision. Still think he did the best thing for the group though.

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Exactly! I could see her murdering someone else; followed by a confession.

There is an upcoming episode called "Live Bait", maybe, just maybe, someone shows up at the prison gates with Carol as the potential "Live Bait". Just sayin'.


Hmmm. Good call.

[babomb]

More good points but I have disagree a bit here. Admittedly Rick's weakness as a leader is Carl and Judith, and rightfully so. I get that as a parent. As a fan of Rick I quickly disagreed with his intention to turn in Michonne. I hated that call. That isnt Rick Grimes pre apoc and he is fighting to maintain as much integrity as he can. I understood at the time as a leader he has to consider all options but Michonne's fate should have been an option all of 30 seconds. But Rick didnt go through with it. I wont say Rick is perfect but he is the chosen leader for a reason. Though long ago he was the man that returned for Merle Dixon. Sure the guns were there and he used that as part of the reason to appease Shane and co but the selfless human in him couldnt leave even a scumbag to die like that. Maybe in the apocalypse his belief system is weak to you and others regarding survival and thats fine to feel that way but I respect the character. Rick is a good man. Carol is a good woman. The situation sucks. After all this rambling, my point simply, is I will call Rick out for bad decisions but I dont believe he is a selfish man. He has proven enough that he would die defending his friends. There's a problem with that way of thinking though. I don't mean this as a criticism of you or any other Rick fan. But when you're a fan of something, you tend to view that with rose colored glasses. You see Rick as a flawed but selfless human. But let's examine him a bit.
His decision to go back for Merle on the roof wasn't a selfless act. He did that because yes, he's a good man, but he was also the one who handcuffed him to the roof. Of course he had good reason to do that, and it was T-Dog that dropped the key. But he said in that episode that he didn't want that on him. So it wasn't out of pure selflessness that he went back for him. It was ultimately a self serving act. Yes, he could've been selfish about it like Shane would've been and just left him. He didn't because he is a good man. But his motivations are never really selfless.
Then there's the Michonne situation. You see it as though he never went through with handing over Michonne. But that's where the rose colored glasses distort the vision. I'm not a fan of any particular character. I'm a fan of the group, and I want to see them survive. But I don't identify with or hold any character above any other.
So when I look at the Michonne situation, for all intents and purposes, Rick did go through with it. He even chose the one person out of the group that was most likely to get the job done to be the one to deliver Michonne, and possibly himself to the Gov. On the very slim chance that this would prevent the war.
Rick changed his mind and sent Daryl to stop things. But in the end it was Merle who didn't go through with it. Rick made the decision and put it into action, he even sent someone else to do it.
But Rick fans only see this as a bad decision, not a self serving act, and will also give an endless amount of reasons why he did this. That's the rose colored glasses of fanship.

I'm not saying he's a selfish man like Shane was. I'm just saying that he isn't the selfless human that Rick fans like to see him as. Those who are fans most likely don't even realize that they are biased in this way.

[Moon Knight]

There's a problem with that way of thinking though. I don't mean this as a criticism of you or any other Rick fan. But when you're a fan of something, you tend to view that with rose colored glasses. You see Rick as a flawed but selfless human. But let's examine him a bit.
His decision to go back for Merle on the roof wasn't a selfless act. He did that because yes, he's a good man, but he was also the one who handcuffed him to the roof. Of course he had good reason to do that, and it was T-Dog that dropped the key. But he said in that episode that he didn't want that on him. So it wasn't out of pure selflessness that he went back for him. It was ultimately a self serving act. Yes, he could've been selfish about it like Shane would've been and just left him. He didn't because he is a good man. But his motivations are never really selfless.
Then there's the Michonne situation. You see it as though he never went through with handing over Michonne. But that's where the rose colored glasses distort the vision. I'm not a fan of any particular character. I'm a fan of the group, and I want to see them survive. But I don't identify with or hold any character above any other.
So when I look at the Michonne situation, for all intents and purposes, Rick did go through with it. He even chose the one person out of the group that was most likely to get the job done to be the one to deliver Michonne, and possibly himself to the Gov. On the very slim chance that this would prevent the war.
Rick changed his mind and sent Daryl to stop things. But in the end it was Merle who didn't go through with it. Rick made the decision and put it into action, he even sent someone else to do it.
But Rick fans only see this as a bad decision, not a self serving act, and will also give an endless amount of reasons why he did this. That's the rose colored glasses of fanship.

I'm not saying he's a selfish man like Shane was. I'm just saying that he isn't the selfless human that Rick fans like to see him as. Those who are fans most likely don't even realize that they are biased in this way.

Calm down, we all know Rick is flawed. There is no black or white; just shades of grey in the zombie apocalypse. It's how you survive.

[babomb]

Calm down, we all know Rick is flawed. There is no black or white; just shades of grey in the zombie apocalypse. It's how you survive.
I'm perfectly calm. Just making some points that need to be made. I mean no offense to you.

[Moon Knight]

I'm perfectly calm. Just making some points that need to be made. I mean no offense to you.

I actually worded that harshly. Didn't mean for it to come out like that. I apologize.

[babomb]

No worries.

[zombieparanoia]

I'm really starting to hate rick, just like in the comics there is this thread of trying to portray rick as a leader when he just really isn't. He makes irrational decisions impulsively, is pretty self serving and often really only is knee jerk responding to whats in front of him. Rick kills people by abandoning them which, in post fall world is just as much a death sentence as shooting them. He just seems to think it's more morally rationalizable to say they died on their own, it's like throwing a person off a boat in the middle of the ocean and saying "gee, I guess they drowned, too bad they couldn't swim better" I get it's the way the storyline is written but in the show and the comics I just find him so unlikable I don't see how he's the hero of the story.

I think carol was right to kill the 2 sick people, if she assessed them as about to die, and trying to stop the spread of the flu what's the problem? Do you have to wait for a person to turn before you destroy the threat?

Wasn't the hippie guy in the pictures on the gas station wall? With the hunting party group?

Also, Tyreese needs to find a hatchet, wtf would you use a blunt instrument that takes 3 strikes to take a down a walker? Daryl and michonne were great, I'm starting to warm up to michonne, now that shes not just angry black lady with a sword who doesn't talk, like the entirety of last season.

[Publius]

I think carol was right to kill the 2 sick people, if she assessed them as about to die, and trying to stop the spread of the flu what's the problem? Do you have to wait for a person to turn before you destroy the threat?

So should someone at the prison now go on a rampage through the "sick ward" and kill everyone in it, including Glenn and Hershel?

[Legion2213]

Also, Tyreese needs to find a hatchet, wtf would you use a blunt instrument that takes 3 strikes to take a down a walker? Daryl and michonne were great, I'm starting to warm up to michonne, now that shes not just angry black lady with a sword who doesn't talk, like the entirety of last season.

Ironically, the "Cold Steel" heavy machete he was using to get into the garage would be better for offing walkers, totally reliable and pretty much indestructable. The only advantage I see with the hammer is it's less likely to foul and get stuck in a walker skull (see Carol's Kukri incident a show or two back).

And yes, Michonne is vastly improving as a character, Daryl seems to be exerting a bit of influence on her to stick around as well...probably because he sees her as a very dependable member of the group to be with when the shit hits the fan.

[Mr. Clean]

I'm really starting to hate rick, just like in the comics there is this thread of trying to portray rick as a leader when he just really isn't. He makes irrational decisions impulsively, is pretty self serving and often really only is knee jerk responding to whats in front of him.

Really? I can't completely agree with your assessment of Rick's comic character.

In the comics....I thought he handled the cannibals like a bad ass.....The finger pointing like a gun and having Andrea blow dude's left ear off on command....Like a Boss!
Sure he stumbles and makes mistakes as a leader but what human being doesn't have weaknesses or faults? Also, I don't feel that Rick chose the role of being a leader....It's more of the group chose him. Once being picked....it's hard to stop wearing the shoes. Especially when everyone still turns to you as if you are still wearing them.

[Andy]

Im not going to get into carol's character again, think i made my position clear in last weeks thread but i did just want to add i think another fantastic episode, season 4 has been fantastic so far.

I Think rick was right in what he did, i dont think he made a quick or rash decision but rather he was testing her and judging her the whole time they where out on a run, and she did make several bad decisions, both irresponsible and cold.

I also agree with what some guys have said here that he did what he did with the safety of the entire group, including carol, as his priority. Her return to the prison could indeed erupt a war once tyreese finds out what she did and daryl would probably try to protect her so yeah, the safety of the entire group could be comprimised by her return.

I also dont think we have seen the last of her but i do personally think she is marked this season, shes on a downward slope and as we've seen with previous characters (shane, andrea..) it builds them up to kill them.

Not saying that becuase i hate her, just the way i see this season going.

[Mr. Clean]

I also dont think we have seen the last of her but i do personally think she is marked this season, shes on a downward slope and as we've seen with previous characters (shane, andrea..) it builds them up to kill them.

I would bet money this!

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clarification.....I believe your statement is right on the money :cool:

[MinionZombie]

I think carol was right to kill the 2 sick people, if she assessed them as about to die, and trying to stop the spread of the flu what's the problem? Do you have to wait for a person to turn before you destroy the threat?

Wasn't the hippie guy in the pictures on the gas station wall? With the hunting party group?

1) She jumped the gun. She did the wrong thing for the right reasons. Would she have done the same thing if it had been Glenn and Maggie, or Daryl and Rick, lying on those beds with the super-flu?

They were locked away, they weren't roaming around - at least give them a chance ... besides, as is always the way with colds and flus, by the time you're exhibiting symptoms you've already had it in your system (and spreading it unintentionally) for a while already. They don't know how anyone got it, so there was no firm evidence that it was just Karen and David who were infected ... a fact which was quickly proven.

2) I wondered that myself, but rewatched and paused on the photo and no - it's a different guy.

...

Rick was in a sticky situation with Carol, no matter what he chose to do he's bound to upset some people, but yeah, the choice he made could potentially be the best all-rounder ... but I do wonder if Carol's going to stumble into a certain someone out there on the road.

As for Michonne - she warmed up in season three - "Clear" was a great episode for Michonne. She got more to say, cracked a smile, and acted more human. It's good to see they're continuing on that path this season - she's cracking smiles left, right, and centre. :D

[Andy]

Friend of mine just came up with a interesting theory, he thinks the governor will show up at the prison holding carol hostage..

[shootemindehead]

It would take a flash back to reveal the (true) events; A technique I've never seen used in this series before. And I can't see them using it.

They've use flashbacks before, mostly in the cold openers.

Shane and Rick before zompocalypse

Shane visiting Rick in hospital

Shane and Lori before zompocalypse

Lori hearing about Rick being shot outside carl's school

etc...

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Friend of mine just came up with a interesting theory, he thinks the governor will show up at the prison holding carol hostage..

Yeh, I was kind of thinking along those lines myself.

They've invested too much time on Carol to have her just bugger off into the sunset like that.

I don't think we've seen the last if her.

[Neil]

They've use flashbacks before, mostly in the cold openers.

Shane and Rick before zompocalypse

Shane visiting Rick in hospital

Shane and Lori before zompocalypse

Lori hearing about Rick being shot outside carl's school

They were all "cold openers" as you say, for events before the start of the series. We've never had, "here's some $hit that happened just an episode or two ago that we didn't let you see. So hahhhaaaaa, fooled you!"

[Moon Knight]

Rick is the man. Even Daryl knows this as was revealed in "Infected" by asking him to take up a leadership position again. However, my spider sense is telling me that after Daryl discovers what Rick has done, Daryl will split off to look for Carol; possibly splitting the group as well.

[Neil]

Rick is the man. Even Daryl knows this as was revealed in "Infected" by asking him to take up a leadership position again. However, my spider sense is telling me that after Daryl discovers what Rick has done, Daryl will split off to look for Carol; possibly splitting the group as well.
Didn't even think about Daryl's reaction to this! Eeek!

[Moon Knight]

Didn't even think about Daryl's reaction to this! Eeek!

Which leads us to this possibility....

WARNING: Spoilers from comic!
Daryl bolts off to look for Carol, Michonne goes with him. They run into the Governor and get captured. The Governor takes them to the prison as live bait to force Rick's hand. Tyreese sides with Rick so he's spared but Daryl gets beheaded with Michonne's sword and the internet explodes.

Just a thought.

[AcesandEights]

I know everyone wants to see him as the selfless leader, but that's not really who he is.

:lol: Rick is the protagonist and tries, but he certainly isn't always right and he falls down a lot, that's what makes him interesting. Human flaws are apparent in just about every major character that gets substantial face time in the comic (up to my readings, anyway). It's just about always been that way in the comics and seems to have rounded out that way in the television version, as well.

I think Rick made a reasonable and believable decision, though--if we're conjecturing--not the one I think I'd have made.

[Neil]

Which leads us to this possibility....

WARNING: Spoilers from comic!
Daryl bolts off to look for Carol, Michonne goes with him. They run into the Governor and get captured. The Governor takes them to the prison as live bait to force Rick's hand. Tyreese sides with Rick so he's spared but Daryl gets beheaded with Michonne's sword and the internet explodes.

Just a thought.

Maybe put your "Spoilers from comic" warning BEFORE the spoiler next time. I though it was just your personal guess, and didn't realise it was the actual comic story :(

I've amended your post...

[Moon Knight]

Maybe put your "Spoilers from comic" warning BEFORE the spoiler next time. I though it was just your personal guess, and didn't realise it was the actual comic story :(

I've amended your post...

No problem, sir. Will do next time. Thanks for the fix. My bad.

[AcesandEights]

Friend of mine just came up with a interesting theory, he thinks the governor will show up at the prison holding carol hostage..

Very interesting and...

believable, given what we know of the prison story arc from the comic.

- - - Updated - - -


Which leads us to this possibility....

WARNING: Spoilers from comic!
Daryl bolts off to look for Carol, Michonne goes with him. They run into the Governor and get captured. The Governor takes them to the prison as live bait to force Rick's hand. Tyreese sides with Rick so he's spared but Daryl gets beheaded with Michonne's sword and the internet explodes.

Just a thought.

Large portions of that would be damned sweet! :thumbsup:

- - - Updated - - -


No problem, sir. Will do next time. Thanks for the fix. My bad.

You spoiler posted non flagrante delicto, but without conforming to best practices?

Sir, please conform to the standards laid out in the following best practices (heretofore referred to as "Best Practices of Spoilage"):

1) First notification of spoilage: drive by post in thread that you plan on posting a spoiler within the next 37 hours. Failure to post a spoiler (using full best practices) in the allotted time is actionable grounds for a demerit.

2) Bibliography of Spoilage: Post under title "My spoiler, supporting material" and include in [spoiler] tags your bibliography/list of supporting materials (please conform to a standard MLA style bibliography; no free form, please and thank you).

3) Wait for Spoilage: After above procedures have been performed please wait 12 hours for confirmation by private message. If confirmed, please move on to the next step.

4) Posting of Spoilage: Feel free to now post your spoiler in the following manner:

In subject line of your replying post, change subject line to: ***My Spoiler***
In body of text, directly preceding your spoiler post in bold (color change of text optional, you're welcome) that you have, in fact, posted a spoiler within your spoiler tags and please note the type of spoiler (Comic Book, Interview, Production Notes, Commercial, Spectral visitation by Robert Kirkman are all acceptable examples).
And Finally, post your spoiler inside the spoiler tags.


Thank you for adhering to the protocol, Citizen.

[Moon Knight]

What? Lol

[AcesandEights]

What? Lol

Sorry, should have added: :p to my post.

;)

[Moon Knight]

Sorry, should have added: :p to my post.

;)

Haha the power of the smiley!

Btw- Anyone else catch the sign with the numbers flipped around to spell "HELL"? It was pretty obvious but a cool little touch.

[kidgloves]

You spoiler posted non flagrante delicto, but without conforming to best practices?

Sir, please conform to the standards laid out in the following best practices (heretofore referred to as "Best Practices of Spoilage"):

1) First notification of spoilage: drive by post in thread that you plan on posting a spoiler within the next 37 hours. Failure to post a spoiler (using full best practices) in the allotted time is actionable grounds for a demerit.

2) Bibliography of Spoilage: Post under title "My spoiler, supporting material" and include in [spoiler] tags your bibliography/list of supporting materials (please conform to a standard MLA style bibliography; no free form, please and thank you).

3) Wait for Spoilage: After above procedures have been performed please wait 12 hours for confirmation by private message. If confirmed, please move on to the next step.

4) Posting of Spoilage: Feel free to now post your spoiler in the following manner:

In subject line of your replying post, change subject line to: ***My Spoiler***
In body of text, directly preceding your spoiler post in bold (color change of text optional, you're welcome) that you have, in fact, posted a spoiler within your spoiler tags and please note the type of spoiler (Comic Book, Interview, Production Notes, Commercial, Spectral visitation by Robert Kirkman are all acceptable examples).
And Finally, post your spoiler inside the spoiler tags.


Thank you for adhering to the protocol, Citizen.


:D You mad f*cker Aces :lol:

[MinionZombie]

However, my spider sense is telling me that after Daryl discovers what Rick has done, Daryl will split off to look for Carol; possibly splitting the group as well.

Oooooooooh ... that's an interesting idea! Yeah, we've definitely not seen the last of Carol - but what?! But how?! Oh my! :hyper:


Btw- Anyone else catch the sign with the numbers flipped around to spell "HELL"? It was pretty obvious but a cool little touch.

I was watching it and I thought "what's that sign doing upside down?" and didn't even notice it read "HELL" until it was pointed out on Talking Dead. :o


:D You mad f*cker Aces :lol:

haha, aye, that gave me a chuckle. :)

Spoilers do suck though, sorry you saw that, Neil.

Love the moral dilemma angles of this season so far - lots to talk about, lots of 'what I would do' chit-chat.

I dug the stuff where Rick was displaying he was still attached to his old life (she gave him a replacement watch ... well, two thirds of one ;) ... and his story about Lori's sucky pancakes), and that the memories were important (it's important to maintain those memories to help guide you, as best as can be reasonably expected, in this horrific new world) ... meanwhile Carol was very quick to write things off, or just forget about them, or portion them to some other person who no longer exists. However, I do think her old self is still in there - she did roll a couple of tears when she was cut loose by Rick, but she once again had to force herself into 'dealing with it' mode.

Yeah ... being a leader in the apocalypse would suck. I'd rather be a right hand man or a wise old sage. What about you lot? :D

I'm also digging seeing new parts of this world - the Big Spot, the garage overgrown with kudzu, the medical school, the abandoned homes etc. It's good to get out of the prison as much as possible during this season, we want to kind of miss it, we don't want to get tired of it, so I think they're very mindful of that and doing a good job so far. :)

[babomb]

Really? I can't completely agree with your assessment of Rick's comic character.

In the comics....I thought he handled the cannibals like a bad ass.....The finger pointing like a gun and having Andrea blow dude's left ear off on command....Like a Boss!
Sure he stumbles and makes mistakes as a leader but what human being doesn't have weaknesses or faults? Also, I don't feel that Rick chose the role of being a leader....It's more of the group chose him. Once being picked....it's hard to stop wearing the shoes. Especially when everyone still turns to you as if you are still wearing them.
He chose it back in season 1. Not by a vote or anything formal like that. It just sort of worked out that way. It would've been Shane if he didn't feel so guilty about bagging Ricks wife in the 1st few episodes.
Rick was the Sheriff and Shane was just a deputy. So Shane stood down until he got sick of Rick and tried to stage a coup.

So Rick chose it. Not by saying "I'm the leader", but he still chose it.

[Andy]

Yeah ... being a leader in the apocalypse would suck. I'd rather be a right hand man or a wise old sage. What about you lot? :D

I'd be shane :shifty:

[facestabber]

He chose it back in season 1. Not by a vote or anything formal like that. It just sort of worked out that way. It would've been Shane if he didn't feel so guilty about bagging Ricks wife in the 1st few episodes.
Rick was the Sheriff and Shane was just a deputy. So Shane stood down until he got sick of Rick and tried to stage a coup.

So Rick chose it. Not by saying "I'm the leader", but he still chose it.

Rick didn't chose it. Previous poster was right. The group looked to him as a leader and he accepted the role. I think it was natural for people to see the uniform and naturally follow the lead. Police are more frequently put in high stress situations than average citizens and we are used to stepping up. People don't want to see a cop sit in the background.

A question I have though is Rick actually the Sheriff of Lincoln county? He refers to himself as a Sheriffs Deputy which is not the same as sheriff. I've never met a sheriff refer to himself as a Deputy. It's always sheriff.

Minion; I think my role would depend on the makeup of the group. I would prefer the right hand man role as well. Daryl's position would suit me well. Only I wouldn't be afraid to protest more against bad decisions. I wish Daryl would have called Rick a moron for contemplating turning over Michonne.

[babomb]

Rick didn't chose it. Previous poster was right. The group looked to him as a leader and he accepted the role. I think it was natural for people to see the uniform and naturally follow the lead. Police are more frequently put in high stress situations than average citizens and we are used to stepping up. People don't want to see a cop sit in the background.

A question I have though is Rick actually the Sheriff of Lincoln county? He refers to himself as a Sheriffs Deputy which is not the same as sheriff. I've never met a sheriff refer to himself as a Deputy. It's always sheriff.

Minion; I think my role would depend on the makeup of the group. I would prefer the right hand man role as well. Daryl's position would suit me well. Only I wouldn't be afraid to protest more against bad decisions. I wish Daryl would have called Rick a moron for contemplating turning over Michonne. It was the other way around. That's how leadership works. They looked to him as the leader because he assumed the role. He assumed the role 1st, which is why they saw him as leader material. When you take it upon yourself to be the one that makes decisions and solves problems, you are choosing a leadership posture. When the others accept you in that role, it seals the deal.
Otherwise, they would've already chose someone else as leader before Rick got there. And then Rick would've had to compete for the leadership position.
Rick showed up in a Sheriffs uniform. Of course they were gonna look to him for leadership. Before that Shane was leading by enforcing a strict operating procedure. Through keeping fires low, not running off on goose hunts that put others at risk. Shane was also a cop. When Rick showed up it caught Shane off guard. Shane had his superior, and best friend back, and had been screwing his wife. And he was the one that left Rick at the hospital. Shane was caught completely off guard by all this, and as a result he backed off of things.
It wasn't like right when he showed up everyone said "The sheriffs here, he's our new leader" and Rick reluctantly said "Oh, ok".

Rick chose to be leader through his actions. He was the superior officer of his town. He was already a leader. He fully understood the dynamics of leadership, and couldn't possibly have been unaware of what the result of his actions would be.
People learn the dynamics of leadership at a very young age.

[facestabber]

Well Babomb since you are a Hall Red Devil and I, a Mendota Trojan, our destiny is to be bitter rivals. Hahahahah. Guess on this one we will have to agree to disagree. Or dust off the helmet and pads and battle at Nesti.

[shootemindehead]

I'd be shane :shifty:

You'd be Carol


:p

[Ragnarr]

Kind of neat that the TWD writers figured out an alternative way to have a main character "leave the show" other than the usual get munched on departure. Carol may be back or may not, OR this could be another "where's Sophia" type of story arc.

With regards to Rick's decision, I think he knew that he wouldn't be able to not tell the group about what Carol did and also knew Ty would strangle her to death when he found out. At the very least it would split the group into a pro-Carol/anti-Carol fight.

Overall, I'll be glad when the characters get back to exploring and finally leave the prison. Maybe find a shopping mall to hangout at for awhile as a tip-O-d'hat to Dawn of the Dead! ;)

[babomb]

Well Babomb since you are a Hall Red Devil and I, a Mendota Trojan, our destiny is to be bitter rivals. Hahahahah. Guess on this one we will have to agree to disagree. Or dust off the helmet and pads and battle at Nesti.:D All I'm saying is that people don't arbitrarily choose someone as a leader just because they want a leader. People follow those who demonstrate leadership qualities. By demonstrating leadership qualities, you make the choice to be seen as a leader. And it's a choice like any other. In the case of Rick, it's an unspoken choice. He didn't ask to be leader. But that's how leaders always come to be, outside of organized structure. In the case of sports, military, or other hierarchical groups, people strive to become or campaign to become leaders. But we're talking about a group of civilian survivors. No votes or campaigns are held.

If you choose not to be a leader, then you accept the role of follower. It's that simple. If there's another way to look at it, I'd like to know what it is.
Honestly, I don't understand how it can be any other way.

[Harleydude666]

Friend of mine just came up with a interesting theory, he thinks the governor will show up at the prison holding carol hostage..

Ummm, hmmmm, I'm gonna say that's really not a stretch. Tell him to try another.

[zombieparanoia]

So should someone at the prison now go on a rampage through the "sick ward" and kill everyone in it, including Glenn and Hershel?


The ones who are assessed as imminently dying, yes There is hershel and the expendable doctor in there right now, they could triage the sick and isolate those who seem to be about to die and take care of the problem. Or would you rather let a single walker or two tear into an entire ward of sick and maybe recovering people who are simply incapacitated with the illness?

- - - Updated - - -


Really? I can't completely agree with your assessment of Rick's comic character.

In the comics....I thought he handled the cannibals like a bad ass.....The finger pointing like a gun and having Andrea blow dude's left ear off on command....Like a Boss!
Sure he stumbles and makes mistakes as a leader but what human being doesn't have weaknesses or faults? Also, I don't feel that Rick chose the role of being a leader....It's more of the group chose him. Once being picked....it's hard to stop wearing the shoes. Especially when everyone still turns to you as if you are still wearing them.

It's more his inconsistency, lets not forget that carl killed a kid in cold blood and only got a one month grounding with no gun privileges. Carol kills some people trying to protect the whole camp and he exiles her, effectively a death sentence, why? To protect carl and judith. He sees no problem with himself sentencing people to death, its only when its not his call that he gets all moralizing. the guys in the bar that he pretty much executed, the people in the crowd at woodbury that he fired on blindly, the crazy old dude in the cabin, the prisoner he killed with the machete and the other one that he trapped in the courtyard with walkers all around? he does not mind executing people, he just doesn't like other people doing it.


I also wonder how daryl is going to take ricks singlehanded exile of carol?

[babomb]

So should someone at the prison now go on a rampage through the "sick ward" and kill everyone in it, including Glenn and Hershel? If that's what it takes to ensure the survival of the rest of the group, then yes.
But, surely the day will be saved in some manner of speaking without having to take such action. Because this is TWD after all, and they go for drama not realism.
And going by the rules of drama in the TWD universe, someone will return to the prison in the nick of time to save some of the sick folks. Not ALL of them, because that wouldn't be dramatic enough. So the main folks will be able to hold out longer than the more expendable ones. We may lose a mid-range character, like Sasha or one of the young sisters. But the main group will make it. Sure, they'll draw it out alot and try to make us think that everyone might not make it.

But realistically people have been passing that illness around since long before even the 1st person showed symptoms. That illness would wipe out almost everyone in that prison. Except a couple people that were lucky enough to have very strong immune systems or people that just happened to be germiphobes and took precautions on a regular basis before they even knew there was a bug going around.
And that vet school wouldn't have any anti-biotics left. It would've been cleared out by the staff and students for their own use, or by the state once they figured out there was an epidemic. Anything that was left would've been cleared by other scavengers long ago. Because it doesn't take a vet to know there's meds there. Addicts would've gone in and taken EVERYTHING left. Everything that looks like a drug. Every vial, every syringe, every pill and bottle. The only things left would possibly be experimental drugs or recalled drugs stored in a safe somewhere that only a few of the staff knew about.

So anyone thinking rationally and realistically in that situation wouldn't wait to take action based on some remote chance that a vet school 50 miles away has enough antibiotics to cure everyone. And then keep waiting for a group to return with the meds after such a long time.
People that are survival oriented don't take those kinds of risks. They act quickly and harshly. Because when you're life is in immediate danger you don't have the time to get all philosophical about things.
They would've setup a makeshift quarantine. Everyone exposed or showing any symptom even remotely risky would be in there. And nobody would be allowed in or out. Everyone not in quarantine would isolate themselves from each other for a little while and mentally prepare to lose those in quarantine. Anyone not sick that insists on being with a loved one in quarantine, stays in quarantine.
There'd be no speeches like the one Herschel gave.
That kind of stuff makes for good TV, but is not realistic.

[Neil]

They would've setup a makeshift quarantine. Everyone exposed or showing any symptom even remotely risky would be in there. And nobody would be allowed in or out. Everyone not in quarantine would isolate themselves from each other for a little while and mentally prepare to lose those in quarantine. Anyone not sick that insists on being with a loved one in quarantine, stays in quarantine.
There'd be no speeches like the one Herschel gave.
That kind of stuff makes for good TV, but is not realistic.I must admit I did roll my eyes a little bit at how lightly they took the quarantine issue.

ie: Everyone should have stayed away from each other, and indeed groups should have stay away from other groups. Food and water should have been split up. And anyone showing any symptoms isolated.

[Publius]

If that's what it takes to ensure the survival of the rest of the group, then yes.

But how do you know it ensures the survival of the group? In Carol's case, it obviously did not. Those two were locked up and isolated. Either they had already infected others or they hadn't -- going in there and killing them wasn't going to change anything except creating another risk of infection. But that's what Carol chose to do.



But realistically people have been passing that illness around since long before even the 1st person showed symptoms.

Exactly, which is why there is no reason to think that Carol's action could have solved the illness problem. If it couldn't have fixed the problem, it was pointless and murder.

- - - Updated - - -


It's more his inconsistency, lets not forget that carl killed a kid in cold blood and only got a one month grounding with no gun privileges. Carol kills some people trying to protect the whole camp and he exiles her, effectively a death sentence, why? To protect carl and judith. He sees no problem with himself sentencing people to death, its only when its not his call that he gets all moralizing. the guys in the bar that he pretty much executed, the people in the crowd at woodbury that he fired on blindly, the crazy old dude in the cabin, the prisoner he killed with the machete and the other one that he trapped in the courtyard with walkers all around? he does not mind executing people, he just doesn't like other people doing it.

Carl killed an armed enemy who failed to immediately comply with an order to drop his weapon. I question his state of mind, but objectively I call that a good shoot -- can't say I would have done differently. The guys at the bar drew on Rick. The prisoners had also clearly exhibited either hostile acts or hostile intent. The two that Carol killed were lying in bed, sick.

[MinionZombie]

I'd be shane :shifty:

*steps away slowly*


You'd be Carol :p

:lol::lol::lol:


Kind of neat that the TWD writers figured out an alternative way to have a main character "leave the show" other than the usual get munched on departure.

Yeah, I dug that - they can shock us and provide memorable material without actually killing anyone. It's important that they try and use death sparingly, otherwise it loses some impact ... you're expecting newbies to die within the episode, so they could change that up a little bit, but on the other hand they're giving enough characterisation to those who do pop up briefly that we want them to hang around longer, or might be about to think they're going to be around longer ... but, usually, they end up on the chopping block ... so then I circle back around to mixing that up a little bit.

[Moon Knight]

Carl killing that kid in 3x16 was completely different. That was in heat of battle and it involved someone who was involved in attacking your group and invading your home. Also, he wasn't a member of Carl's own group.

[Legion2213]

Carl killing that kid in 3x16 was completely different. That was in heat of battle and it involved someone who was involved in attacking your group and invading your home. Also, he wasn't a member of Carl's own group.

Also, if you watch the scene, it actually looked like the guy was slowly angling to try and take a shot, the first time I watched, I thought he was going to try and get one over on Carl...so in a real life situation where my own life was on the line (in Carl's shoes), I would have shot him as well...he didn't comply quick enough and drop his weapon.

And as others have pointed out, the fact that entire group is now riddled with some sort of killer plague proves the point that Carols action did sweet FA to stem the disease or save the group. It was a bad, bad call on her part...she's actually weakened the group by getting herself exiled (as a non-sick, able bodied pair of hands). And of course, there will be potentially disastrous repercussions when the truth comes out, possibly splitting/dividing the group even more.

[babomb]

But how do you know it ensures the survival of the group? In Carol's case, it obviously did not. Those two were locked up and isolated. Either they had already infected others or they hadn't -- going in there and killing them wasn't going to change anything except creating another risk of infection. But that's what Carol chose to do.



Exactly, which is why there is no reason to think that Carol's action could have solved the illness problem. If it couldn't have fixed the problem, it was pointless and murder.
You don't know that it will. You take the route that has the highest probability of success. Because that's really all you can do, and everyone's life hangs in the balance. Like treating an infection of unknown origin. You start with a broad spectrum antibody, then when you can identify the infection you switch to a more specific antibody.
In the case of the illness in the prison, they'll really never know more than they know right now. They don't have the benefit of modern science.
Herschel and Dr-S should be pretty familiar with past illnesses throughout history, and understand what effects they had on societies before modern medicine. Which, realistically, is the position they're in. They have to deal with this as if there is no modern medicine. Because there isn't. They know more than people did in the past, but without the ability to practice modern medicine there's not alot they can do with knowledge only.

- - - Updated - - -


I must admit I did roll my eyes a little bit at how lightly they took the quarantine issue.

ie: Everyone should have stayed away from each other, and indeed groups should have stay away from other groups. Food and water should have been split up. And anyone showing any symptoms isolated. This illness plot thread they got going works as a superficial threat but you can tell it wasn't thought out much more than that.
Everyone is reacting like they know more about the illness than they possibly could.
The dead are coming back to life as a result of some sort of communicable disease. And they all know they're already infected. They know enough that they amputate limbs to prevent the spread, and kill anyone bitten before they come back. Something like this new illness should really have everyone extremely paranoid that it's somehow related, and make everyone not want to have close contact with anyone else. Especially anyone showing symptoms. Because there's simply no way for them to know anything about this illness. The walker virus kills people with flu like symptoms of extreme fevers and respiratory distress/failure. So does this new illness.
There's people with medical knowledge, so surely they're aware of the possibility of mutation. Without science all you have to go on are the symptoms. And the symptoms are basically identical.
But they act as if they're so sure that the absence of any bite wounds on Patrick is automatically proof that this is a completely unrelated illness. Something like that would realistically be treated as nothing more than a theory, and nobody would want to take chances that the theory is wrong. So everyone would basically be acting as if this was a mutation of the walker virus. Even if some people had doubts they'd still not be taking any chances.

[SeekNDestroy82]

Quite frankly I'm getting quite bored of this whole "flu" storyline. In fact, I'm getting tired of the prison in general...

[babomb]

Quite frankly I'm getting quite bored of this whole "flu" storyline. In fact, I'm getting tired of the prison in general...
Amen to that. And welcome to the forums.

[bassman]

Quite frankly I'm getting quite bored of this whole "flu" storyline. In fact, I'm getting tired of the prison in general...

the "word on the street" is that there will be something happening in 405 that compromises both of those storylines/locations....

[Neil]

Quite frankly I'm getting quite bored of this whole "flu" storyline. In fact, I'm getting tired of the prison in general...

The flu has only been a couple of episodes, and even then not 100% of the screen time?

The prison doesn't bother me at the moment, because all they will do it have to find another place in stead to base things at...

[facestabber]

Quite frankly I'm getting quite bored of this whole "flu" storyline. In fact, I'm getting tired of the prison in general...

Great name. Metallica\m/. All day every day. I agree about the prison. The flu was needed until the gov returns.

[Legion2213]

the "word on the street" is that there will be something happening in 405 that compromises both of those storylines/locations....

I'd buy that for a dollar!

I think the prison really has run it's course, lets hit the post apocalypse trail again (to be fair, this season has seen folks foraging and scouting in every episode though), but yeah, hit the road, let's see if we can find those folks making radio broadcasts and the like, soak up the sights and sounds of this brave new world!

[babomb]

I'd buy that for a dollar!

I think the prison really has run it's course, lets hit the post apocalypse trail again (to be fair, this season has seen folks foraging and scouting in every episode though), but yeah, hit the road, let's see if we can find those folks making radio broadcasts and the like, soak up the sights and sounds of this brave new world! As much as I'd like to see the same thing, I don't think we'll get it. It seems like locations is something they don't like to spend money on if they can avoid it.
They could've found a decommissioned prison to shoot at but they chose to create one on a studio back-lot. All the other locations seem very small in scale, and all the shots are usually pretty cramped.
It's something I noticed that changed drastically from season 1. In season 1 the locations were more dramatic and open, with the hospital, Ricks neighborhood, the city, the CDC. And the shots were more expansive. In season 2 we started seeing smaller locations and tighter shots.
It fits the storyline so you don't notice it unless you look for it. But I think it allows them to put money into other aspects. Like walker extras and FX.

[paranoid101]

Great Episode one of the things that did bug me was Daryl's Group at the university, they seemed to get in fine collect the drugs they needed, but why Didn't they go out the same way they came in?, didn't seem to be in a rush when collecting the drugs like walkers were after them. just seemed strange to go out a completely different way not know the dangers ahead.

Plus I love Carol's character progression this series, I don't think shes cold but has started to see how you need to be in this world to survive.

[Moon Knight]

Carol easily became the most intersting character on the show. Her interactions with Rick in this episode are fascinating and are only appreciated after you break down each scene after multiple viewings. She see's Rick as weak and Rick is just damn afraid of her. Whoever thinks this season is boring aren't clearly paying attention and dissecting what is being played out in front of them.

[rongravy]

I have yet to rewatch the episode, but stellar as usual.
I can't see how anyone could think that the Daryl scene with him bumping foreheads and being Mr. Badass was anything other than utter silliness, though.
That was actually pretty cringeworthy for me to witness.
And Tyreese needs to either lose that hammer, or turn it over to the claw side. Geeeez.
And we all know Carol is coming back. But yeah, I noticed they are going deeper into her character than earlier seasons; the kiss of death, for sure.
I waited until today to read all 7 pages on this thread, and there is just too much to get into, and I often saw things answered for me later anyway.
I'd still like to hear what ol' Herschel would have to say about this...
Hersch'...?

[Wyldwraith]

Personally,
I agree with whoever said Rick doesn't mind executing people, he just has a problem when its not HIS CALL. That's 100% true. Every time he does it, the character himself, plus the viewers here leap to justify his killings, but that's exactly what Carol did. Kill and then justify.

Rick's speech about "Not being their Governor" means NOTHING at this point. Under the guise of a personal decision he made a unilateral decision that could have VERY bad repercussions for the group. How? Here's 2: 1) Daryl refuses to accept it, and upon learning of the event and the reasoning behind it, leaves by himself to go in search of Carol. Anyone who even TRIES to make an argument Daryl wouldn't leave the group to its own devices whatever their circumstances while he did what he felt needs to be done hasn't been watching Daryl closely enough.

2) If Herschel comes down debilitatingly ill, that leaves only Mr. Alcoholic The New Guy as the only semi-competent possessor of medical expertise. PLUS, given the report Rick is going to receive on Tyreese should Daryl and Co. survive to return to the Prison, it's quite arguable that Tyreese needs to be locked up. He didn't even APOLOGIZE for turning those gas-station Walkers loose with his blind-rage-induced hacking at the vegetation. Plus, on 2 separate occasions that run he's exhibited suicidal behavior. (Being incredibly late to leave the car, which would have endangered other lives had Rick been leading that run and not Daryl, because Rick would've demanded they go back for him, whereas Daryl made the right call to leave him behind...and refusing to let go of the Walker in the bushes, until he finally dragged it out and it landed on top of him, putting DARYL at risk to pull the Walker that NEVER SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN ONTO TYREESE in the FIRST PLACE off the man.)

Rick kills people he feels need killing all the time. What Carol was trying to prevent WASN'T Karen and David moving about spreading it to others. She was trying to prevent exactly what happened to Herschel when Herschel was attending to the Doc. Ie: The primary caregivers being critically exposed to the disease by breathing in high concentrations of aerosolized infected blood from their wracking coughing fits.

Which doesn't even take into account that the Prison is so short on healthy bodies that Herschel has GLENN, one of the sick helping him at this point. Oh yea, I'm just positive that using what little energy he has is improving Glenn's prognosis.

Rick made a unilateral decision. Of the type that Shane was so often damned for, but simply because it's Rick that's OK with many folks. Not with me. Personally, upon hearing that Rick just "Voted someone off the Island, the moment he had them away from the Prison, I'd shoot the bastard in the back myself...because runs need to be made, but now Rick is completely untrustworthy as a run-leader. He might decide to exile Tyreese next for being a loose cannon....or Michonne for taking unnecessary risks that involves others putting themselves at risk to pull her ass out of the fire. That's the problem with a slippery slope. It's SLIPPERY. Today's judgment call/difficult decision is tomorrow's snap judgment. This is EXACTLY the sort of decision-making that LEADS to the evolution of entities such as the Governor.

Bottom line: With most of the primary figures down or out of town, Rick felt he could get away with making a unilateral decision concerning Carol. And DUH, of COURSE it was Lizzie who killed them! Why ELSE would Carol have WANTED TO TAKE CHILDREN OUT INTO THE ZOMBIE-FILLED WASTES???

Which is the other problem with a snap decision. It allows no time for human nature to play out, and for the truth to shake out, as it often does in these sorts of "small town" settings. But, let's say Rick DOES find out Carol DIDN'T do it. He's STILL gonna get a pass for his decision "Because he didnt know" right?

I would kill anyone around me with a habit of playing God with the lives of others in a post-apocalyptic world. I'd rather go down like Shane trying to do what I thought was right. (And let's remember, one of the KEY issues for Shane in DECIDING to off Rick was his conviction that Rick's moralizing was going to get Lori, Carl, and Lori's unborn child killed. Wow, did he call that one or what?)

Currently, the people at the Prison are Sheep, and Rick is the Judas Goat. Look up the term for yourself, it'll be educational.

[Moon Knight]

People are mad because Rick made a stupid decision. 8 pages worth of discussion. I love it.

Also, you think this is bad? It's nothing compared to all the stupid shit he does in the funny books.

[Neil]

I can't see how anyone could think that the Daryl scene with him bumping foreheads and being Mr. Badass was anything other than utter silliness, though.
Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!

[Moon Knight]

Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!

Yeah, I agree. Daryl is a redneck at heart so it didn't seem silly at all to me.

[MinionZombie]

Oh no! I really dug that scene! Daryl was truly pissed off with this guy and absolutely 'cave manned' him down!

I also think there's an element of Daryl, having not really had to be in that position before - as a group leader having to sort out a troublemaker and life risker - that he doesn't quite know what to do. So he goes animalistic, stare him down, invade his personal space, muscle into him and be the physically dominant one.

It did make me chuckle, but at the same time I totally got it and enjoyed the scene - because we were getting to see a side of Daryl we'd not seen before. Bob was left as a whimpering bugger up at the end of the encounter.

[kidgloves]

Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.

[MinionZombie]

Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.

Yeah, he stands out and there's a lot of mystery around him. I hope we get to have enough of him before he gets snuffed out - Axel was killed off too soon.

[kidgloves]

Yeah, he stands out and there's a lot of mystery around him. I hope we get to have enough of him before he gets snuffed out - Axel was killed off too soon.

+1.
What a great season this has been. The praise seems to be universal bar a few outlets that I would class as comic book nerds (nothing wrong with that btw) who seem to think they have some sort of entitlement over the show/comic.

[facestabber]

"I would kill anyone around me with a habit of playing God with the lives of others in a post-apocalyptic world." wyldraith

Would you kill Carol? What person that Rick killed seemed out of line? The guy has made pour decisions but seems to be overly demonized here.

If Carol was trying to protect caregivers how did she accomplish that by going into a confined space, knifing their brains, then drag their bleeding bodies outside. Completely over exposing herself and then being in proxemics with other healthy people.
I usually agree with ya Wylde but the slippery soap in this equation starts with killing the sick.

Edit. You are right about Rick making a unilateral decision as a slippery slope. Essentially he is worried about telling the truth to the group and seeing civil unrest, rage and anger take place and all the fallout that comes with it. The easier thing for him to do would have been take Carol back, tell the counsel members(actually everyone) and let the cards fall where they may. Put the burden on everyone's shoulder. I am torn about Carol. The whole situation sucks. The good news is TWD is on tv and delivering some serious entertainment. And by the disagreements/philosophies on this board I can see that group survival in the undead world would be far more difficult than I imagined;)

[Moon Knight]

The logical solution would be to take Carol back and have the council do what they will with the truth. However, like someone pointed out, the council is broken. 2 if them are sick; and most likely Hershal. And Rick's not even sure that Daryl's group will return. He made the call for himself; to protect his children. It was a tough call and one I'm sure Rick is having a hard time taking in; hence why he keeps looking back in the rearview mirror.

[MinionZombie]

The council is buggered up at this time ... but on the other hand they do live in a prison, which is pretty handy. They coulda locked her up! :lol:

The choice made in the show is the most interesting possibility though, no doubt, the makers did the right thing here - I'm eager to find out where it all goes from here. I suppose for Rick it was a case of 'Who is this woman now? Is this the same woman I used to know and trust with my children? Can I trust her ever again?' ... plus, as he says, he's making the decision for him. Rick the father, not Rick the leader, wants her nowhere near the place because that's where his kids are.

[Moon Knight]

The council is buggered up at this time ... but on the other hand they do live in a prison, which is pretty handy. They coulda locked her up! :lol:

The choice made in the show is the most interesting possibility though, no doubt, the makers did the right thing here - I'm eager to find out where it all goes from here. I suppose for Rick it was a case of 'Who is this woman now? Is this the same woman I used to know and trust with my children? Can I trust her ever again?' ... plus, as he says, he's making the decision for him. Rick the father, not Rick the leader, wants her nowhere near the place because that's where his kids are.

Not to mention Carol pretty much asked Carl to keep secrets from his own father; and, as we know, Carl wasn't having that.

[Legion2213]

Rick made the right choice as far as I am concerned, taking her back and exposing her would do way more damage than his or any other solution IMO.

He doesn't always get it right, I'm backing him on this one.

- - - Updated - - -


Bob's an interesting character already. I've warmed to him quite quickly.

I said pretty much the same earlier on in this thread...I really thought he was shifty and not to be trusted at first...but it's becoming more a case of his shifty ways being down to his mental/stress and alcohol problems, not some evil intent.

And yes, I'm pulling for him as well. Could be a good character and very useful member of the group if he can crush his inner demons.

[babomb]

And by the disagreements/philosophies on this board I can see that group survival in the undead world would be far more difficult than I imagined;) The only real reasons all these philosophies come into play is because we're watching all this happen on a TV show. If that were reality, none of this would matter anymore. Debating the morality and philosophy of things is a luxury we have because we're on the outside looking in.
Many will say they would remain moral and do the right thing regardless, and throw around some Dale quotes. But that too is a luxury afforded only by the fact that they aren't actually living in that reality.
The undead world has a way of weeding out the idealists.

Once you get to the point where you're a member of a group of hardcore survivors, you've dealt with the reality that you have to do what you have to do. If you haven't, then you are unlikely to have made it that far.

[Publius]

Personally,
I agree with whoever said Rick doesn't mind executing people, he just has a problem when its not HIS CALL. That's 100% true. Every time he does it, the character himself, plus the viewers here leap to justify his killings, but that's exactly what Carol did. Kill and then justify.

Well, yeah. But not all justifications are created equal. The question is whether it's a valid justification. I don't recall Rick ever intentionally killing anyone who was not actively hostile to him or his group. Declining to take responsibility for someone who is not part of the group (the backpacker) is different -- it's not like Rick ran him over or shot him while driving by, he left him alone just as though he was never there.

[MinionZombie]

Well, yeah. But not all justifications are created equal. The question is whether it's a valid justification. I don't recall Rick ever intentionally killing anyone who was not actively hostile to him or his group. Declining to take responsibility for someone who is not part of the group (the backpacker) is different -- it's not like Rick ran him over or shot him while driving by, he left him alone just as though he was never there.

Agreed.

Also, Rick had a mission to complete - get weapons and ammo - he had an impending war on his hands with an absolute nutjob, that takes priority over everything at that moment, plus he doesn't know who this backpacker guy is, he could be a total psycho, so Rick closed ranks in that situation and completed his mission ... but he did feel bad about what he did (Carol didn't really seem to feel all that bad ... maybe she does deep down, but she's burying any of that under a mountain of self-justification). It's also important to note that - at that time - Rick wasn't in the best mental state. He'd only recently lost his wife (while she gave birth to his daughter), he's lost others in his group, and everything's in a bit of a mess ... so there's only so much he can fix right at that moment.

He also gave Shane plenty of chances to redeem himself, but the man was hellbent on destruction, and in 2x12 it was either Rick or Shane, and Rick put Shane down, even though it hurt him so much to do so.

[Neil]

Rick made the right choice as far as I am concerned, taking her back and exposing her would do way more damage than his or any other solution IMO.

He doesn't always get it right, I'm backing him on this one.
What is he going to tell the group? She's dead? She's alive? She did the murders?

[facestabber]

What is he going to tell the group? She's dead? She's alive? She did the murders?

The only thing he should tell them is the truth. In its entirety

[Legion2213]

What is he going to tell the group? She's dead? She's alive? She did the murders?

Best thing is to tell the truth, he will make himself a target for hatred from a few people when he does, but looking at the way a civil war/huge fall out would go if Carol was tried and judged in the prison, they could lose Daryl (and Michonne who seems to respect and like Daryl) if they disagreed with executing Carol or if Mr T killed her himself.

If T decides to take himself off to hunt Carol down, that's fair enough, but then again, Daryl might decide to hunt him down...there are no easy solutions to this, Rick did the best he could in a really shitty situation.

The bottom line is that the writers threw this situation into the mix for this reason, this isn't a Gordian knot that can simply be chopped up by some smart ass, it's a really bad situation that cannot have a happy outcome whatever happens...which is why we have 9 pages mostly dealing with it and mucho heated debates. :D (Hell, I bet there were a few heated debates among the writers as to how this should go down).

(as a survivors fan, you probably remember the "law and order" episode dealing with the murder of Wendy and the wrongful execution of the Barney, and the subsequent decision to allow Tom Price to live after he was discovered to be the real killer...justice in the modern world is tricky enough, in a post apocalypse world, it would be a fucking nightmare for people who had morals and dwindling numbers which they needed to keep healthy/topped up in order to simply survive)

Damn! I can't wait for tonights episode...I'm salivating already!!! :D

[AcesandEights]

I would kill anyone around me with a habit of playing God with the lives of others in a post-apocalyptic world.

:lol: Will you go by Governor, el Jefe or something else in the post-apocalyptic wasteland?

[Wyldwraith]

Hey I said HABIT of playing God ;)
Everyone's going to come up against some sort of ethical no-win scenario sometime in a post-apocalyptic world, but when it becomes the go-to reaction to disregard the group and do what you want about whatever you want, then you've essentially declared that all bets are off, civilization is dead, and if you can make unilateral life-and-death decisions, so can I. Nobody appointed Rick Supreme Leader. He's done everything he can to AVOID any responsibility of leadership for MONTHS. Then, when it suits him, he just makes a kneejerk call and because it's Rick Grimes, TWD world just falls in line and accepts it.

Honestly, I'm curious what it WILL take Rick doing to get his defenders here to say "Yea, that's just beyond the pale. What Rick did was evil"?
I'll say it once more for clarity: You CANNOT have it both ways! EITHER Rick gets to play Old McDonald and avoid all leadership responsibilities, or he's leader-guy 24/7. Rick's actions have clearly demonstrated that it's only when circumstances grow so dire that he's FORCED to take charge again that he'll accept that responsibility. To my mind, his little 6 month Farmer Bob vacation erases any right to judge anyone else by Mr. Grimes.

See, this is exactly the slippery slope I was referencing. One person taking unilateral action narrows the choice-branches for another concerned party until THEY take some form of unilateral action in RESPONSE, and as the dominoes continue to fall all group cohesion and ability to trust/rely on each other is lost. I was SHOCKED when Maggie and Herschel just blithely accepted what Rick did. That was so patently a Writer Fiat as to be inexplicable in any other way.

Speaking from mere pragmatism now: Daryl is a massive, able-bodied/not sick asset to the group. Tyreese is able-bodied sure, but is exhibiting self-destructive loss of control that has severely endangered multiple lives at this point. To call Tyreese anything BUT a Liability at this juncture is fantasy. So the morality of what Carol did becomes IRRELEVANT, because the group can't do without Daryl, and realistically Daryl would go after Carol. He went after Merle, and Merle had been until only days prior actively engaged in the torture, kidnapping and attempted murder of group members. Daryl and Carol's relationship is FAR healthier than his relationship with his brother ever was, and ESPECIALLY NOW, that Merle is gone, I can't see Daryl letting Rick do that. Oh to be sure that's exactly what the writers will have Daryl do. Rick will give him some sort of bullshit "We need you HERE!" guilt trip, and Daryl will stay...but NOTHING in the character indicates he wouldn't break with Rick's decision to do what he thought was right.

Exile in the zombie apocalypse is a COWARD'S mechanism of execution. It's exactly the sort of "Let the Walkers take care of Andrew" brand of moral cowardice that Rick Grimes has based his post-zombie apocalypse morality on. No matter how many times it comes back to bite him, he doggedly refuses to take true responsibility. Instead he makes decisions that dramatically affect others, and then DEMANDS everyone be O.K with that. Everyone who isn't a pro-Rick fanboy knows damned well Carl shot that kid from the Governor's group because he had something to prove. Herschel knew it, but Rick in his role as Stand-in-for-God chose to let it slide with a simple six month grounding from carrying a gun.

As for the argument the kid was part of the Governor's group attacking the Prison. Ask yourself this HONESTLY: Let's say that the kid HADN'T been part of their group, and was just a Survivor attracted to the area by the sound of gunshots. Let's say he was slow to hand his gun over to this strange kid, and then Carl shoots him. Still ok with that? Because CARL had no way of knowing, at the time he pulled the trigger, just WHO that teen was. He ASSUMED, and HAPPENED to be correct that the teen was with the Governor's group...but he shot someone in cold blood essentially because he was pissy he'd been sent to the zombie-apocalypse equivalent of the Little Kids Table.

As the actress who was the guest on Talking Dead said: Nepotism.

What's O.K for Rick Grimes to do is therefore O.K for anyone else to do. Daryl would be JUST AS morally entitled to say "I'm making the decision for myself Rick, you and your brats have been nothing but trouble since the moment your ass came back from the dead. Take them and get the Hell out of here, or I'm gonna gun you down, and then your brats."

That's the problem with unilaterally inflexible decision-making. It leaves no room for compromise, and once one person adopts it, realistically any and every other strong personality affected by said unilateral decision will ALSO adopt that sort of decision-making, leading to the implosion of any sort of social collective.

[Andy]

Speaking from mere pragmatism now: Daryl is a massive, able-bodied/not sick asset to the group. Tyreese is able-bodied sure, but is exhibiting self-destructive loss of control that has severely endangered multiple lives at this point. To call Tyreese anything BUT a Liability at this juncture is fantasy. So the morality of what Carol did becomes IRRELEVANT, because the group can't do without Daryl, and realistically Daryl would go after Carol. He went after Merle, and Merle had been until only days prior actively engaged in the torture, kidnapping and attempted murder of group members. Daryl and Carol's relationship is FAR healthier than his relationship with his brother ever was, and ESPECIALLY NOW, that Merle is gone, I can't see Daryl letting Rick do that. Oh to be sure that's exactly what the writers will have Daryl do. Rick will give him some sort of bullshit "We need you HERE!" guilt trip, and Daryl will stay...but NOTHING in the character indicates he wouldn't break with Rick's decision to do what he thought was right.

Im sorry, what relationship between daryl and carol? unless ive missed an episode they have never gone further than friendly flirting. Ive do that with loads of female friends, it dosnt mean theres a relationship there.

Merle was his brother, blood is thicker than water.

Also, as was already pointed out, ricks decision to exile carol was not knee jerk, he spent the whole episode thinking about it and testing carol and she did act like a bitch. The decision was also made for the good of the entire group including carol, bringing her back to the prison could well start a war and put her life in danger.

Sorry but im 100% behind rick on this one.

[MinionZombie]

Rick did make the right call, the best from a bad bunch of possible calls - there was no bright shining choice, only hard calls.

As for Daryl & Carol - you can have a relationship without bonking each other's brains out. :p Their relationship is chaste and based on a mutual understanding - they both come from abusive backgrounds, unlike the rest of the group, so they have this deep common ground between just the two of them. A lot of their relationship is just hinted at as it's not really something you can visualise very easily - it's more of a feeling - whereas with Rick/Carl you can easily show the father/son relationship, with Glenn/Maggie you can easily show the married couple angle, and with Tyreese/Sasha you can easily show the sibling relationship ... Daryl/Carol has always been a relationship that's far harder to define and illustrate, but it is there.

[zomtom]

I STILL want to see somebody question Rick's actions when it came to Carol. Hell, I want to see somebody get up in his face and rip his ass apart!! He has gotten off way too easily so far. Wyald is right, in much of what he says. Rick had NO right to make that decision on his own. He also put the group in jeopardy because they could have used an extra pair of hands in the next episode. I'm getting tired of his acting like God. I also don't understand all of the blind devotion to him on this site. I was on another site a few days ago and they were really ripping into him. Guess they were big Carol fans.

[Publius]

As for the argument the kid was part of the Governor's group attacking the Prison. Ask yourself this HONESTLY: Let's say that the kid HADN'T been part of their group, and was just a Survivor attracted to the area by the sound of gunshots. Let's say he was slow to hand his gun over to this strange kid, and then Carl shoots him. Still ok with that? Because CARL had no way of knowing, at the time he pulled the trigger, just WHO that teen was. He ASSUMED, and HAPPENED to be correct that the teen was with the Governor's group...but he shot someone in cold blood essentially because he was pissy he'd been sent to the zombie-apocalypse equivalent of the Little Kids Table.

Come on, when you're in a battle and you know everyone on your force and an unknown is coming towards your base with gun in hand, you HAVE to assume that they're part of the enemy force. I didn't even like Carl's character at the time. I think "had something to prove" might be a charitable interpretation of his state of mind. But based on the objective circumstances I think his action was reasonable.

[Wyldwraith]

By that logic Carol is justified then.
You've essentially boiled Carl's action down to "Threat = Right to terminate individual representing said threat."
What got Carol condemned isn't what she did, it's that what she did FAILED in its objective. Had there been no further outbreaks of the "Bloody Eye Disease" no one would've wanted to articulate it in the Prison Group, but they all would have had feelings of thankfulness that they, their loved ones and friends are now safe.

As to Rick's decision not being a kneejerk one: A few probing questions over a couple-hour period, interspersed with 90% silence? That's the exhaustive consideration of motive and mindset that ANYONE would want before being exiled into the Zombie-filled post-apocalyptic wasteland?

My point about Carl was this: In an apocalyptic situation, anyone of a proactive mindset, working within a small social collective will EVENTUALLY do something that significantly treads on the morality of one or more others within that social collective. Whether it was Lori hopping in the sack with Shane before Rick's imagined dead body was even cold (And the whole scene where when she takes her top off and Rick's wedding ring on the chain around her neck makes Shane uncomfortable, so she immediately takes it off is conclusive evidence that she had, for all intents and purposes already moved on.) Or whether it was Rick, in the midst of an urgent crisis and having to deal with a belligerent and probably imminently violent Merle, who knocked the guy out and cuffed him to a rooftop where through a series of unfortunate coincidences ended up leaving Merle in a "fate worse than death" sort of position, necessitating self-amputation. Or whether it was Dale, taking it upon himself to hide all the guns in the swamp, where they well could've been lost to the group had he fallen to the Walker 12hrs earlier than he actually did.

Or even more positively-inspired, but still risk-creating decisions: Such as Daryl going back for Merle, despite the fact a moment's thought would've told him that Rick and Co. would surely come after him and thereby get put in harm's way due to his actions. Or Michonne's little detour to kill zombie-Penny and gouge out the Governor's eye. Or even Andrea's "There has to be a better way than shooting the guy who turns out to be a complete sociopath."

The point is that ANYONE is EVENTUALLY going to fuck up epically in the judgment of their peers. Hell, Daryl chose to break ranks and go off with his brother, who was responsible for handing Glenn and Maggie over to the Governor, and TRYING TO FEED GLENN TO A WALKER, but when he thinks better of it not only is he taken back, they ACTUALLY *allowed Merle a) To live, and b) To remain in the Prison*

And what about the reverse? What about when, because someone (like Rick), operating by pre-apocalypse morality makes a decision that in the pre-apocalypse world would be right and proper, but in the POST-Apocalypse world puts OTHER PEOPLE'S *lives* in danger? T-Dog died too as a result of Rick's decision not to finish Andrew when he had the chance, and Carol was very nearly fatally entombed alive...besides what went down with Lori. Rick, seeking to atone for the "wrong" he did Merle by leaving him on that roof, instigates a foray back into crawling-with-Walkers downtown. As a result, nearly ALL the firearms went with Rick, as did a large % of the able-bodied men. That decision contributed to all the deaths at their camp.

The standard one needs to use in a post-apocalyptic environment isn't "Do something very immoral and you're gone." A far more rational, pragmatic standard would be "Based on EVERYTHING I know about this person, are they a) A CONTINUING THREAT to the group, or individuals within the group, b) A major asset or not to the group's continuing existence. And c) What is the likelihood of recidivism, Ie: How likely is it that if faced with a similar situation they would behave in the same unacceptable manner?

The entire "Tyreese will kill Carol" excuse was just that. An excuse, because he immediately goes on to say if everyone except him, Carol, Carl and Judith died, he wouldn't want her around. Furthermore, let's even forget Tyreese's "rage out" since Karen's death. He doesn't want to work the fence, and doesn't want to go on runs. He has no valuable knowledge, and is essentially worth only what he can accomplish as any other warm body, or in a Walker-defense role. As to Walker-defense, he's a poor shot and his head is definitely NOT on a swivel when it comes to situational awareness.

In other words, to paraphrase: Everything Tyreese can do, Carol can do better and then some.

Yes, Rick had Carol's rather cold, very pragmatic statements to go by. Yet he also had her undeniably valuable role in caring for and strengthening the minors under her care at the Prison. He had the knowledge that Carol is not so far gone that she wasn't able to bond with Lizzie and her sister. Most importantly: By his own admission he knows Carol would do ANYTHING for the good of the group. Whatever the risk, whatever the personal cost.

People here are holding up the "Bringing her back could've caused division within the Prison population" justification. Isn't that in and of itself indicative of the fact that this decision affected too many people for Rick to make on his own and then inform them of afterward. Doing it himself, however you try to spin it, is Rick saying "I know better than everyone else at the Prison, and because many of the strongest personalities are currently laid up sick, I can take life-and-death decisions into my own hands and expect not to even be second-guessed.

Where is this faith in Rick's judgment coming from? During the "Governor Crisis" Rick was wildly hallucinating and drove Tyreese and Sasha into the Governor's camp. He was wandering around outside the fence, seemingly only partially aware of his surroundings and thereby any potential danger. Subsequent to this period wherein he was mentally and emotionally compromised, he did everything in his power to shut out the very reality of the Zombie Apocalypse, playing Farmer Bob while others were working in hours-long shifts terminating Walkers at the fence.

Carol believed she was protecting the majority from a deadly microorganism. NOTHING ELSE indicates she has been anything but tirelessly selfless and utterly devoted to the group. If ANYONE deserved a second chance, it was Carol. Carol's decision and Rick's many decisions are simply 2 sides of the same coin. It doesn't matter how many times making a choice based on pre-apocalyptic morality rises up and bites the group, Rick always gets the default defense "He was trying to do the right thing"

People here shouldn't make the mistake of assuming his moral judgments hold any more worth than anyone else just because as the main protagonist the writers invariably let him off the hook time and again. Trying to do what you think is best for the group and having extremely negative consequences result from that effort is the same principle, regardless of who is taking action. Carol never allowed complacency to dominate her outlook and behavior. She loved those kids enough to do what no one else was interested in doing, and teaching them to defend themselves. Beyond the physical benefits, she was re-empowering children who in many cases undoubtedly had felt tossed hither and yon by chance and circumstance, while in other cases were wrestling with their inability to protect themselves or those they cared for. Those children will ALL be worse off without Carol.

This wasn't a built-to-a-crescendo feud over control of the group and possession of Lori/Carl like with Shane and Rick. Much as I agreed with a lot of how the Shane character saw things, I recognized HE had pushed matters beyond a Point Of No Return. Instead, we have a single crisis-specific reaction. Even if you completely erase the value of emotional ties between members of the group and Carol, didn't her PRACTICAL expertise and unwavering commitment, that included selflessly shouldering great personal risk, make her worth something like this:

"Carol, what you did was WRONG, and nothing you say or do will ever convince me otherwise. If you EVER do something like this again I will PERSONALLY put a bullet in your brain. We clear?"

Because the part I just don't get was where the "I don't want you around" was coming from on Rick's part. He's taken chances on people who at one juncture were actively antagonistic to the group. Why didn't Carol merit a second chance...if not for herself, then for the sake of two little girls who just lost their only parent and were now looking to Carol to fill that void. "Keeping them safe" isn't enough. Lizzie has SEVERE emotional and psychological issues that, in the absence of a trained professional, are best handled by the ONLY adult she seems to have formed a significant rapport with. We'll never know if that damaged little girl could've been saved, because the only person with an inkling as to her issues, and with the trust from Lizzie necessary to reach her and inspire change was sent away.

Will Rick get a pass on Carl being put into a position where he has to gun Lizzie down when he witnesses her step beyond the pale?

[AcesandEights]

I STILL want to see somebody question Rick's actions when it came to Carol.

That may well happen, but I just don't think the people who've been told have had time to process what's happened yet.

4x05 spoiler:
As far as reactions we've seen, they make sense from what I can see. Rick told someone who is risking his life to stave off this illness long enough for some medicine to arrive and a woman whose husband is currently ill that Carol killed two of their own people who were already sick, so I didn't expect any of them to have a great condemnation for his actions...not right away, anyway.

[MinionZombie]

*ahem*

Everyone, do remember this is the 4x04 thread and not the 4x05 thread.

Keep 4x05 talk inside the 4x05 thread, please. :)

[AcesandEights]

*ahem*

Everyone, do remember this is the 4x04 thread and not the 4x05 thread.

Keep 4x05 talk inside the 4x05 thread, please. :)

Good catch, MZ.

[Publius]

By that logic Carol is justified then.
You've essentially boiled Carl's action down to "Threat = Right to terminate individual representing said threat."

No, what I'm saying is "Hostile = Target." Given that Carl's action occurred during battle, I'm looking at it from a rules of engagement / law of war perspective. Under the circumstances, I believe it was reasonable to assume an armed unknown approaching your position during the battle is a hostile combatant (as was in fact the case). Hostile combatants are legitimate targets. Noncombatants are never legitimate targets, even if they pose an unintentional, unconscious threat.

I agree with you about Rick acting unilaterally in this case, though. Carol's action was wrong, but he probably should have brought the decision back to the council, as I've said before.

[facestabber]

Wylde I still do not understand how you can use a 'slippery slope' argument as evidence Rick is some power hungry evil man. And then defend Carol. She sat with the counsel, they made a plan of action regarding the illness, then on her own took unilateral action and killed two people. That is a knee jerk reaction and isnt just a slippery slope. Its a black diamond mountain covered in plastic and coated with astro glide.

The reactions you see from Hershel and Maggie are showing you that the group trusts and believes in Rick. There is no perfection in leadership but the group wants Rick. They portray it very clearly.

Now if the counsel had banished Carol would they receive the same condemnation as 'killers without killing'? Again I ask if Rick put a .357 through Carol's skull do you believe that is truly the same?

Im wondering if Rick represents a person of authority to some of you and that in life you naturally are against that? Was it the fact he wore a police officers uniform that have people so bothered by him? Im beginning to think that it is.

Supporters of Rick have challenged and chastised him. Either people prefer to pretend it didnt happen to strengthen their resolve that fanboys are delusional, or didnt read the forums. I will just repeat an example from my past regarding Rick. I hated his decision regarding Michonne. I was ready to write him off for considering that as an option. I was pissed at Daryl for not calling him a moron and to fuck off(certified Daryl fan) and for Hershel to stand idle as well. And Rick's intent was just like Carol's in this case, "for the good of the group".

Dale had a point about losing ones humanity. Is surving for the sake of surviving, without humanity, worth it?

[Legion2213]

Wylde I still do not understand how you can use a 'slippery slope' argument as evidence Rick is some power hungry evil man. And then defend Carol. She sat with the counsel, they made a plan of action regarding the illness, then on her own took unilateral action and killed two people. That is a knee jerk reaction and isnt just a slippery slope. Its a black diamond mountain covered in plastic and coated with astro glide.

The reactions you see from Hershel and Maggie are showing you that the group trusts and believes in Rick. There is no perfection in leadership but the group wants Rick. They portray it very clearly.

Now if the counsel had banished Carol would they receive the same condemnation as 'killers without killing'? Again I ask if Rick put a .357 through Carol's skull do you believe that is truly the same?

Im wondering if Rick represents a person of authority to some of you and that in life you naturally are against that? Was it the fact he wore a police officers uniform that have people so bothered by him? Im beginning to think that it is.

Supporters of Rick have challenged and chastised him. Either people prefer to pretend it didnt happen to strengthen their resolve that fanboys are delusional, or didnt read the forums. I will just repeat an example from my past regarding Rick. I hated his decision regarding Michonne. I was ready to write him off for considering that as an option. I was pissed at Daryl for not calling him a moron and to fuck off(certified Daryl fan) and for Hershel to stand idle as well. And Rick's intent was just like Carol's in this case, "for the good of the group".

Dale had a point about losing ones humanity. Is surving for the sake of surviving, without humanity, worth it?

Looking at Beth lately, the answer is obvious, all she does is bang on about "getting through, surviving, moving on"...her eyes are dead, Hershel would be broken hearted if he saw her lately. You need hope to stay human, hope that there is a good settlement somewhere, hope that the walkers will die out/rot away, hope for some kind of future...I think Rick's farming is an example of that.

[Wyldwraith]

I NEVER said that *Carol's* own action wasn't in and of itself an example of Unilateral/Kneejerk action-taking,
That actually highlights the problem. To bring it into more specific relief, the very fact that most of those who've supported the Rick-character's decision have GONE ON to say they themselves would have returned Carol to the Prison for the Council to handle means that most here recognize that Unilateral Action, mixed with Life And Death decision-making is a recipe for instability and ripening chaos in any social group.

As to the allegation that Rick represents an authority figure for me I'm lashing out at by proxy, I'll be brutally honest and confess that each and every authority figure that has actively antagonized me beyond a certain reasonable difference of opinion level I've made regret it. Moral? Absolutely not. Effective? You betcha. I have no repressed resentment against authority because it all gets channeled into lashing out at authority that bothers me in such a way the trail doesn't lead back to me (at least from an evidentiary standpoint). In other words, many times I've DONE what others fantasize about doing. This isn't some "Aren't I a badass" chest-thumping. I'm a crippled 34yr old who leaves his house once a month these days. Just wanted to be absolutely clear on the issue of repressed resentment.

When I come to discuss moral/philosophical points raised by character actions here, I don't generally bring my own moral outlook...if for no other reason than people would get bored of hearing "I'd kill X or Y for screwing with me, or at least force it into a situation where it's them or me. Since that sort of statement leaves no room for discussion in its absolutism, I leave it at home so to speak. Instead, I draw my examples from "classic" Morality Vs Pragmatism arguments, and other interesting points of conflict in human nature.

If you want MY unvarnished opinion, here goes: Rick should have completely let Carol slide on this and kept his mouth shut, AFTER making 110% sure she understood a recurrence of this sort of behavior gets her a bullet in the brainpan. Carol is a valuable, ALMOST *integral* part of the group in the area of providing for the children's needs, and her willingness to sacrifice and risk her life for the group to such an extent are assets greater than the lives of Karen and David. That simple for me. Carol's life is WORTH MORE than Karen and David's, and not for some lame reason like she's been a central character for a long time. She's grown into a capable, well-rounded and group-committed Survivor, possesses skills and aptitudes at the very least not exhibited by Karen and David, and most likely not in Karen and David's skillset.

These people live in a world where the dead eat the living, civilization is a fading memory they can even see the death of said memory coming in the reactions of the children, and where the vast majority of other living humans see each other as assets to exploit and use up. EVENTUALLY, if the situation country or world-wide remains the same LONG ENOUGH the ONLY living left WILL be those who abandoned pre-Apocalypse morality. Why? Because it is a HINDRANCE that does nothing to improve the odds of survival in their world. Fast forward 30yrs...and Carl is going to be the closest thing resembling Rick remaining, assuming he lives that long. Even in such a morality-centric childhood and adolescence, morality is ALREADY more easily dispensed with by Carl...and there's nothing to indicate that trend won't continue as he ages.

When you live in a savage environment, you become a savage or you die. To those who'd say they'd rather die than sacrifice their morality, that's exactly my point. Such people won't be around to contribute said values to whatever ends up getting rebuilt once the vast majority of Walkers rot away. Based on historical example, if all the Walkers magically vanished from TWD world tomorrow, humanity would still be in for a 500-750yr Dark Ages-style period that comes after the fall of every current major stability-giving civilization. The conquest of Persia followed by Alexander's untimely death, the fall of Rome etc etc.

The trick is to bury a nugget of decency deep inside yourself...away from the part of you that makes daily decisions. Then, should you live to see the world grow less lethal and chaotic, your challenge becomes reversing the atavism you had to embrace to survive. Different challenges for different stages of the human condition, but I categorically deny the possibility of retaining civilized morality for any significant length of time in a post-apocalyptic world. Not and also see your children reach adulthood.