TWD 4x05 "Internment" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The fifth episode of season four!

Please keep all talk of episode 4x05 "Internment" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Enjoy!


Episode 4.05: “Internment” - Assorted enemies pressure Rick and the group; the survivors and the prison may reach a breaking point.

[facestabber]

Ya know I love this show. This was a prison episode I was happy with. I really liked Carl and Rick kicking ass. The Gov is back and it's about to get nasty.

[AcesandEights]

A ponderous first two thirds to this episode, but it did end with some solid insanity and action.

Hershel was killing me with not closing those doors, though. I get it, he's hobbled, over-tired and overworked, but damn...

[JonOfTheShred]

Now that's what I'm f*cking talking about. That was pretty much a perfect episode of Walking Dead. This episode is arguably the first time since the pilot aired that I felt it captured the tone of the comic dead on. Such a great episode.

- Hershel taking center stage and selflessly tending the sick. Making quips about taking advantage of half the council being gone.
- Near death scare with Sasha, wasn't sure if that zombie he walked by would attack him when he was trying to revive her.
- Carl and Rick wasting zombies with automatic weaponry? And then walking amongst them afterwards to kill any survivors? Epic
- Still on the fence about Lizzie, creepy little girl playing with zombie blood with her foot. Treating zombies like pets. Bitch is crazy.
- The Governor at the end of the episode was totally unexpected and a pretty damn good ending.

Did anyone else spo Dr. Tongue? There was a zombie that looked like it was THE SAME MOLD as Dr Tongue. Wonder if Nicotero would do something like that....recycle an actual prop from Day.

[Wyldwraith]

Things are getting quite grim,
And here we're seeing the critical flaw in Rick's call last week. Maggie took the news surprisingly (unrealistically) well. Herschel hasnt been depicted as giving his opinion, but given the way he answered Daryl doesnt seem to have a problem with Rick's handling of the situation. But there's Daryl, and Rick delaying fessing up to the party most concerned with the principal decision. Now of course they'll cop out, and not have Daryl bail to go look for Carol like he WOULD.

Plus, look at how its going with the illness. Rick's entire "They could have lived. Karen and David, they could have lived" is COMPLETE NONSENSE. The BEST case of someone who has become seriously symptomatic who HASN'T ended up hacking huge amounts of blood up is Sasha. Seriously, thats our current "best case recovery model" from this illness. Someone losing consciousness intermittently, becoming half-delirious and needing IV-rehydration in order to regain consciousness.

Doc Caleb, and what happened in the Sick Ward tonight backed up and vindicated Carol completely. FACT: The healthy man who came out with the gun to try and protect Herschel, who was subsequently bitten/killed would be ALIVE had Carol had charge of the worst-case-sick. There wouldnt have been dead bodies lying in open cells long enough to reanimate, get up and come out to attack, because they woulda been knifed.

Though truthfully after Lizzie's "Here boy, here boy" routine with Intubated Walker, and her swirling her bootsole around in Glenn's puddled blood, I am almost positive the reason Carol BURNED the bodies was NOT to stop the disease, but to conceal the non-terminating mortal wounds Lizzie inflicted. In Lizzie's logic "At least they get to come back as SOMETHING." (Direct quote) She quite probably stabbed them in the chest or throat, so they could "Come back."

Either way, the Prison was critically undermanned when it was just disease and Walkers fence-breaching to worry about. Add the Governor to that mix and it's a bad, BAD thing that there's just Rick & Carl on Outside Duty.

[facestabber]

Hershel is beyond exposed to this virus and yet at the end of the episode he is hanging out with the other members. Also sure was shaping up for Hershel to die this episode. Glad he's still with us.

The gov isn't gonna make his presence known without taking some serious casualties. I love that music, the pulse. I eagerly await the Hell the gov is gonna bring.

More Maggie please. I love her and think she is one of the best characters and actors. She hasn't had enough screen time this season and tonight was a good start at focusing on her. I repeat, more Maggie!!!

Wylde you are completely wrong about vindication. FACT everyone in that cell block would be dead if Carol carried out her plan. If glen pulls through does that count for anything? And why is Maggie's reaction questioned? She was noticeably upset and saddened but she understands that Glen would have been knifed by now as well. Sans Daryl it seems the entire counsel is gonna agree with Rick. So counsel plays Monday morning QB and agree with Rick. Team Rick wins!!!! I feel vindicated;). I'm kidding. Just really happy with this seasons story.

[kidgloves]

Terrible episode for 2/3rds of it. The Rick/Carl stuff was great but the rest of it was poorly executed. Not sure if it was the direction, editing or both but I won't be rewatching this.
Great to see the Gov at the end. I hope he has a tank with him:D

[zomtom]

I thought it was a great episode. I was sitting on the edge of my seat through a good portion of it. I was also yelling at my television, every time Rick was in a scene. I kept saying, " that's what you get for getting rid of Carol!!" They were pretty much down to a skeleton crew in this episode and they could have used her help, either at the fence or in the isolation ward. And NO, I don't believe she would be killing the sick. I think it's obvious, Karen and etc.;s death didn't stop the virus. Besides, I'm still pretty sure we're going to find out Lizzie is the killer in a few more episodes. Rick has irked me a number of times in the past but I am officially going to say I do not like his character any longer. What he did to Carol was wrong and I want him to suffer a little for that decision. He got off a little too easy with Maggie and Hershel. I can only hope Daryl rips Rick's ball-sack in the next episode.
Also, I think one of the reasons Hershel hasn't gotten sick is because this flu was based on the "Spanish Flu" of 1918. That flu only took out people in their prime. It didn't affect the very young or old. That's why Hershel is still pretty chipper after having blood spit across his face.

[Legion2213]

Boo! Hiss! Governor!!! :D

That guy is just smouldering with psychopathic hatred and ill intent...what a great villain! :)

Just this second watched the episode, so no real thoughts yet apart from the fact that season 4 is just kicking my arse with every episode...really enjoying this season.

Oh, okay, will echo a few other peoples thoughts...zombie breach was great, I wanted to be there with Rick and Carl pumping hot leaden death into those walkers and that little girl is creepy as fuck! she always puts me in mind of the kid in this meme...

1283

[MinionZombie]

Yep, Lizzie is creepy as all get out ... weird little girl. :shifty:

Walker breach! *GASP!* That was some tense stuff, alright! I was locked-in tight to that scene as it played out, and combined with all the chaos in the flu-wing, it was pretty relentless when it all kicked off.

Ooooooooh ... The Governor's back! :hyper: I wonder if we'll get to see a sort of montage of what he got up to over those intervening months, that'd be cool to see.

I also liked how they did a kind of call back to episode one with Rick coming out. They think they've got things handled again, time to calm down ... but then that music. I loved Carl and Rick going side-by-side with assault rifles taking out those walkers, that split-second zoned-in vibe from the both of them, Carl tossing the magazine to Rick and so on, that was some capable stuff ... ... although is it such a good idea to have a big box of guns out in the open where they could get rained on? :rockbrow:

A little bit slow up-front, but then it really cranked up - lots of tension - I was really thinking they might snuff out Glenn and/or Sasha. Those two were right down to the wire. Have we pretty much run out of Woodburyites now? There can't be many left now! :stunned:

[sandrock74]

Very tense episode, I liked it! I was convinced Hershel was going to meet his maker during this episode.

I had thought about the cache of guns being kept outside, apparently not even under a tarp or something, as being unwise until I thought that maybe they were just recently moved outside, to be easily accessible to the few remaining "defenders". A move that certainly saved the day with Rick and Carl.

All in all, I thought it was a fun episode.

[facestabber]

Very tense episode, I liked it! I was convinced Hershel was going to meet his maker during this episode.

I had thought about the cache of guns being kept outside, apparently not even under a tarp or something, as being unwise until I thought that maybe they were just recently moved outside, to be easily accessible to the few remaining "defenders". A move that certainly saved the day with Rick and Carl.

All in all, I thought it was a fun episode.

TWD will never win praise for their gun handling knowledge. I have just found a way to let it slide. And actually I will greatfully accept your explanation as to the guns being moved outside.

I too thought Hershel was going down. He has really been a strong character for this show. A little goofy upon introduction(the barn) but I really like Hershel. Group is lucky to have him.

[MinionZombie]

I had thought about the cache of guns being kept outside, apparently not even under a tarp or something, as being unwise until I thought that maybe they were just recently moved outside, to be easily accessible to the few remaining "defenders". A move that certainly saved the day with Rick and Carl.

That's a fair point - I'll take it. :)

...

This was a great episode for Hershel, lots to do, and various different hats on during the episode - wise old sage, medical man, and even a broken down tired old guy who's just been through some serious shit and is - perhaps - losing his faith.

Even though it's all make believe, if I was in the shoes of Lincoln or Riggs, I'd have shat myself when that fence came down and the walkers started spilling in ... it was so chilling to see them out there at night, nothing but walkers, fence, and a big black void beyond. Quality stuff. :cool:

TWD 4x05 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/hershel-edition-walking-dead-4x05-memes.html


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4jGnoap9uLc/UoENEyHi4YI/AAAAAAAACQk/OSNSF-aZiQA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Maggie_Hershel_Not_ Safe_Chill_Out_God_Mode_Enabled_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RlP-FYnn46A/UoENF7ceOnI/AAAAAAAACRA/3LIJ8DQiUzM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_The_Governor_Back_C redits_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IT9SppMdbYQ/UoEND7GhQzI/AAAAAAAACQg/0hSWW4fMT5o/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Hershel_Walkers_Cel l_Block_Trusty_Infinite_Ammo_Shotgun_4x05_DeadShed .jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f9wMqDNwHvA/UoENDI2H5mI/AAAAAAAACQc/GPLa3JtTOvk/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Carl_Rick_Help_Tidy _Your_Room_LOL_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-iv2KZWOUjVI/UoENDY9JVgI/AAAAAAAACQY/iOxO6kSMBkI/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Creepy_Lizzie_Walke r_Whisperer_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-aLu4DhvdUPk/UoENE3qt_SI/AAAAAAAACQ0/Ez8Md0N_nf8/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Maggie_Hershel_Dary l_Fan_Girls_Walkers_Fence_Home_Spun_Wisdom_Shock_F ace_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8c1xvYsHXJU/UoENCwVBrMI/AAAAAAAACQM/YztdhZyXR1g/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Hershel_Praise_Lord _Giveth_Cheat_Codes_Light_4x05_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uTiR1Fmd760/UoENF4yWRdI/AAAAAAAACQ8/jVBrD5qGxoU/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Wheres_Carl_Rick_Fa ther_Son_Time_Guns_Walkers_4x05_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Wyldwraith]

Carol (If she even did it, which I doubt very much at this point) knifed Karen and David to try and prevent the disease's spread. NOTHING she has said or done indicates she would kill anyone else now that the disease is rampant. What she WOULD DO is stop the needless RISKING OF LIVES by Herschel's ridiculous "Lets move a body that could reanimate at any moment and spring into action like the Walker that cost Herschel his leg, just so people dont have to see the dead being knifed to prevent reanimation.

You all do understand that the death of the man who came out of the cell to try and protect Herschel when the Walker grabbed him, his blood is on Herschel's hands. Had a) Herschel done as Doc Caleb suggested and started carrying the shotgun, no problem. b) If they weren't being so prissy about disposal of the dead, there wouldn't have been a near-repeat of the Patrick-Walker-overrun of Cell Block D. Glenn nearly died because of Herschel's policies. The man is selfless to a fault, and has admirable humanity, compassion and wisdom in many areas...but his hesitancy when it comes to dealing with Walkers directly just cost the life of someone who wasn't sick.

I strongly believe that had she returned to the Prison, Carol would've been right in there with Herschel, allowing desperately needed rest on Glenn and Sasha's part...and would only knife those who were already gone. I believe it's very difficult to deny that Herschel's moralizing, coupled with his understandable fatigue, just cost a life that didnt need to be lost.

That's without even getting into the fact the Prison is so critically undermanned that Rick's pre-apocalypse moral code is becoming more of a hindrance with every passing moment. Carol is not a serial killer, and even if she DID do it, and even if it was a bad call, exile is the same as slow execution. Look at how things went for Michonne and Andrea, and they had each other. But Rick has a penchant for killing-without-killing...as if not pulling a trigger or thrusting with a blade somehow makes him less a killer.

I'm still holding onto hope that Rick's eventually going to get a clue, but right now his pre-apocalypse moralizing is annoying to watch, and his judgmental behavior when it suits him is downright ruining the character. What Rick is essentially saying is this: "I don't want to be responsible for the heavy decisions....until something happens and I change my mind, then I want to be free to exercise unilateral punishment in a way I am willing to kill others for doing."

Rick can't have it both ways. Either the buck stops with him, or he has to stop making calls that are life and death for others. In a very unfair, very arbitrary apocalypse, its a sort of unfair the group shouldn't have to deal with, having Rick just jump in and do what he wants whenever he feels moved to do so.

I could make an argument that Shane could, using the EXACT SAME reasoning, said "I'm making the decision to bust open the barn and eliminate the Walkers inside for ME."

How's it different? Rick perceived Carol as a threat, so he got rid of her via his sense of entitlement to make such calls. Shane perceived that creaky-ass barn with its mini-horde of barely-contained Walkers as an imminent threat, and made a unilateral decision that was actually more valid than Rick's decision to oust Carol, because Shane announced his intentions prior to taking action, armed everyone, and let their willingness or unwillingness to participate in the Walker extermination speak for itself.

Watch the Mythbusters episode they referenced in last night's Talking Dead. Adam and Jamie empirically proved that the depicted # of Walkers in the barn could NOT ONLY breach it, but that a single surge of the majority of the Walker-bodies (you know, the type of behavior they exhibit ALL THE TIME at the Prison fence) would in Adam's words "Snap that 2x4 like a twig."

It's the SAME principle, like it or not. Worse, let's say that every major character recovers...Rick's actions have invalidated the Council. He's saying "If logistically speaking you guys aren't immediately available to weigh in on a major issue, I reserve the right to go over your heads and do whatever I think is best." Why have a Council if that's the case? Rick didn't even TRY to work within the system they've created. Carol could easily have been incarcerated until such time as the Council members either recovered and could address the situation, or various Council members die and replacements are voted in to address the issue.

Frankly, the Tyreese is going to rage out argument doesn't hold water either. He's such a loose cannon presently that he's a CLEAR AND PRESENT danger to himself and others.

A very good episode in so many ways, but I feel they're straying into non-fun territory with the Rick character...as he now does the very things he's killed others for doing, and doesn't seem to have any internal realization of that fact.

[Andy]

Wow.. best episode of the season so far! i loved this one guys, seriously.. everything about it, it was perfect!

i was on the edge of my seat, i was sure glenn was a dead man and i was sure herchel was a dead man!

And rick and carl walkerbusting? yes please!

And the governor.. :hyper:

bring on next week!!

[Legion2213]

Couple of further musings...

Hershal is suffering badly, seeing him get worn down to tears over the course of the episode made me feel really sad, I like the character a lot. His comment about "having come to this" now that they can't bury bodies and have to burn them instead was particularly poignant, this is a God fearing man who believes all the dead should have a decent burial.

The interactions between himself and Maggie are fantastic, real lump in the throat stuff sometimes, they are very believable as a father and daughter.

Carl is becoming a far better character as well, the kid is growing up and proved his worth helping his old man out with that breach and is just a Hell of a lot less annoying than he used to be. The writers seem to be scripting him as "trying his best" to make his dad proud and such-like.

Michonne cracked another huge smile when she spoke to Hersh...nice to see her becoming more human.

This season of TWD is the benchmark as far as I am concerned, every future episode should contain the quality of the five we've had...if they can step it up a notch, I'll be like a pig in shit!

[facestabber]

Carol (If she even did it, which I doubt very much at this point) knifed Karen and David to try and prevent the disease's spread. NOTHING she has said or done indicates she would kill anyone else now that the disease is rampant. What she WOULD DO is stop the needless RISKING OF LIVES by Herschel's ridiculous "Lets move a body that could reanimate at any moment and spring into action like the Walker that cost Herschel his leg, just so people dont have to see the dead being knifed to prevent reanimation.

Well she did kill two people. She did sit down at the all prestigious counsel(that so far agrees with Rick, with heavy hearts IMO) and after a decision to isolate them, she went behind everyones back and did the knife trick. Had she not been caught and the next person up came down with symptoms you guarantee she wouldnt continue on her personal belief system? She is not evil but she is cold and that shit isnt gonna go over well with people fighting for their lives.


You all do understand that the death of the man who came out of the cell to try and protect Herschel when the Walker grabbed him, his blood is on Herschel's hands. Had a) Herschel done as Doc Caleb suggested and started carrying the shotgun, no problem. b) If they weren't being so prissy about disposal of the dead, there wouldn't have been a near-repeat of the Patrick-Walker-overrun of Cell Block D. Glenn nearly died because of Herschel's policies. The man is selfless to a fault, and has admirable humanity, compassion and wisdom in many areas...but his hesitancy when it comes to dealing with Walkers directly just cost the life of someone who wasn't sick.

Oh no no no. Now are we going to put Hershel in front of the counsel for punishment? This is rediculous. Hershel is risking his own life to help those people and they seem grateful for it. No doubt some unsafe actions by everyone in that block. But what did Hershel say to that man shortly before this went down? And the guy did what? In this world if your head isnt on a swivel, your gonna get bit. Hell even Hershel told everyone to stay in their cell when the zombie was on top of him. I hate to bring John J Rambo into this but "Live for something or die for nothing".

I strongly believe that had she returned to the Prison, Carol would've been right in there with Herschel, allowing desperately needed rest on Glenn and Sasha's part...and would only knife those who were already gone. I believe it's very difficult to deny that Herschel's moralizing, coupled with his understandable fatigue, just cost a life that didnt need to be lost.

When did Morality become an evil? The man got bit because of his own actions not Hershel willing to give his life to help people. Those people arent bitching that he is in their or cheering for him to knife them in their presence.

That's without even getting into the fact the Prison is so critically undermanned that Rick's pre-apocalypse moral code is becoming more of a hindrance with every passing moment. Carol is not a serial killer, and even if she DID do it, and even if it was a bad call, exile is the same as slow execution. Look at how things went for Michonne and Andrea, and they had each other. But Rick has a penchant for killing-without-killing...as if not pulling a trigger or thrusting with a blade somehow makes him less a killer.

So if Rick put a .357 through her brain in that neighborhood we're not flipping sides? There is a difference. If Rick did that I would not have sided with him. Carol is cold not a serial killer, we agree. But if we're discussing the weakness of morality how can a weapon, a vehicle and supplies and a new cunning attitude be equaled to killing her out right? If he dropped her in a pit of walkers again I would be completely against Rick.

I'm still holding onto hope that Rick's eventually going to get a clue, but right now his pre-apocalypse moralizing is annoying to watch, and his judgmental behavior when it suits him is downright ruining the character. What Rick is essentially saying is this: "I don't want to be responsible for the heavy decisions....until something happens and I change my mind, then I want to be free to exercise unilateral punishment in a way I am willing to kill others for doing."

Rick can be annoying to me as well. I didnt like farmer only Rick. Hated his Michonne decision. Being a leader isnt fun for him. He doesnt go to bed giddy about the decisions the next day. Who has Rick killed for doing the same things that he has done? He didnt execute Tiny on the spot after an injury that was believed to be a death sentence. The two prisoners and shoot out at the bar I cant see even bothering to justify. I know this much. It is far easier to critique a leader than stand up and lead.

Rick can't have it both ways. Either the buck stops with him, or he has to stop making calls that are life and death for others. In a very unfair, very arbitrary apocalypse, its a sort of unfair the group shouldn't have to deal with, having Rick just jump in and do what he wants whenever he feels moved to do so.

Maybe they agree with his decisions.

I could make an argument that Shane could, using the EXACT SAME reasoning, said "I'm making the decision to bust open the barn and eliminate the Walkers inside for ME."

He can and did. Cant argue.

How's it different? Rick perceived Carol as a threat, so he got rid of her via his sense of entitlement to make such calls. Shane perceived that creaky-ass barn with its mini-horde of barely-contained Walkers as an imminent threat, and made a unilateral decision that was actually more valid than Rick's decision to oust Carol, because Shane announced his intentions prior to taking action, armed everyone, and let their willingness or unwillingness to participate in the Walker extermination speak for itself.

Watch the Mythbusters episode they referenced in last night's Talking Dead. Adam and Jamie empirically proved that the depicted # of Walkers in the barn could NOT ONLY breach it, but that a single surge of the majority of the Walker-bodies (you know, the type of behavior they exhibit ALL THE TIME at the Prison fence) would in Adam's words "Snap that 2x4 like a twig."

It's the SAME principle, like it or not. Worse, let's say that every major character recovers...Rick's actions have invalidated the Council. He's saying "If logistically speaking you guys aren't immediately available to weigh in on a major issue, I reserve the right to go over your heads and do whatever I think is best." Why have a Council if that's the case? Rick didn't even TRY to work within the system they've created. Carol could easily have been incarcerated until such time as the Council members either recovered and could address the situation, or various Council members die and replacements are voted in to address the issue.

I think the council members would agree that if decisions need to be made, make them. Dont wait on someone that may never return. Again I would have taken Carol back and sat her down in front of Hershel and Maggie and spilled the beans. Thats just me. But I dont think Rick deserves the hate he gets. And if Carol was imprisoned doesnt that go against your idea of lack of manpower and helping out. How can she be along side Hershel and imprisoned?

Frankly, the Tyreese is going to rage out argument doesn't hold water either. He's such a loose cannon presently that he's a CLEAR AND PRESENT danger to himself and others.

Actually I dont see Tyrese going rage murder on Carol had that played out so I agree here. I think he would be so shocked, hurt and disgusted that he asked Carol to look after his sick sister and she cowardly on more than one occassion didnt fess up. And would the rest of the group stood by and watched Tyrese beat her to death? I doubt that because that morality gets in the way. I think Rick looked at the totality of events and made a call.

A very good episode in so many ways, but I feel they're straying into non-fun territory with the Rick character...as he now does the very things he's killed others for doing, and doesn't seem to have any internal realization of that fact.

Again I dont know what you are talking about here. And how can Rick be accused of pre apocolypse morality and then not having internal realization? These decisions are painful to him. I think thats implied. He hates this world and hates making decisions. I'd follow Rick Grimes though team Maggie is really really appealing:)

edit. Serious apologies as I have butchered Wylde's post. I am computer illiterate and still havent figured out how to post multi quotes......I give up

[kidgloves]

This is the last time I watch a stream of anything at 2? in the morning. Couldn't help myself and drink had been taken. :o
I've now watched the episode on the tv with a sound system. What a difference. My opinion has completely changed.
A very good episode.

[Legion2213]

This is the last time I watch a stream of anything at 2? in the morning. Couldn't help myself and drink had been taken. :o
I've now watched the episode on the tv with a sound system. What a difference. My opinion has completely changed.
A very good episode.

Too many people seem to do this! Folks with nice 42" + HDTV's watching a show on a 15" laptop screen or the like...crazy!

I always transfer to a USB stick or if I can be arsed rig the PC to TV with the HDMI cable. Far better experience, sitting in a comfy chair, some snacks, able to hear the dialogue properly, able to really see whats going on etc. Just a far better experience!

[kidgloves]

Yeah. Thats what I normally do as well. Its been a bit of a ritual on a Monday morning all through Mad Men, Breaking Bad and now TWD.
I just found myself awake and semi coherent and thought why not?
Never again.

[Moon Knight]

Wyld still hates Rick for what he did to Shane. ;)

Anyway, great episode and what a wild ride it was. If last week's episode was about Carol, then this one is certainly owned by Hershel. I've always said Hershel is one of my favorite characters and "Internment" proves why. Very exciting and just when you think things are finally going to slow down for out heroes, the motherfucking Governor shows up. GOLD.

[rongravy]

Yeah, I thought Herschel was going to buy the farm a few times. The zombie chick that woke up, that he passed to help Tyreese's sister...
Wasn't she in the next cell? Why didn't she immediately go after him?
And WTF, Hersch'? They need to quit trying to sugarcoat shit all the time. He should've been knifing them in the head ASAP when he realized they were RIP.
It's not like these kids haven't probably already seen the worst. I wouldn't be hauling bodies all the way outside before I brained them. I might be willing to turn my body in front of you, and icepick him as I cough really loudly at the same time, but that's about it.
This episode will definitely keep your panties bunched. Also knew the cavalry would ride in to save the day at just the right time, but was still happy to see it. I knew Glen wasn't going to get offed, but wondered about his future dad in law...
And yikes, only 3 more episodes before the break, just wen it's getting realllllll good.

[Harleydude666]

Carol (If she even did it, which I doubt very much at this point) knifed Karen and David to try and prevent the disease's spread. NOTHING she has said or done indicates she would kill anyone else now that the disease is rampant. What she WOULD DO is stop the needless RISKING OF LIVES by Herschel's ridiculous "Lets move a body that could reanimate at any moment and spring into action like the Walker that cost Herschel his leg, just so people dont have to see the dead being knifed to prevent reanimation.

You all do understand that the death of the man who came out of the cell to try and protect Herschel when the Walker grabbed him, his blood is on Herschel's hands. Had a) Herschel done as Doc Caleb suggested and started carrying the shotgun, no problem. b) If they weren't being so prissy about disposal of the dead, there wouldn't have been a near-repeat of the Patrick-Walker-overrun of Cell Block D. Glenn nearly died because of Herschel's policies. The man is selfless to a fault, and has admirable humanity, compassion and wisdom in many areas...but his hesitancy when it comes to dealing with Walkers directly just cost the life of someone who wasn't sick.

I strongly believe that had she returned to the Prison, Carol would've been right in there with Herschel, allowing desperately needed rest on Glenn and Sasha's part...and would only knife those who were already gone. I believe it's very difficult to deny that Herschel's moralizing, coupled with his understandable fatigue, just cost a life that didnt need to be lost.

That's without even getting into the fact the Prison is so critically undermanned that Rick's pre-apocalypse moral code is becoming more of a hindrance with every passing moment. Carol is not a serial killer, and even if she DID do it, and even if it was a bad call, exile is the same as slow execution. Look at how things went for Michonne and Andrea, and they had each other. But Rick has a penchant for killing-without-killing...as if not pulling a trigger or thrusting with a blade somehow makes him less a killer.

I'm still holding onto hope that Rick's eventually going to get a clue, but right now his pre-apocalypse moralizing is annoying to watch, and his judgmental behavior when it suits him is downright ruining the character. What Rick is essentially saying is this: "I don't want to be responsible for the heavy decisions....until something happens and I change my mind, then I want to be free to exercise unilateral punishment in a way I am willing to kill others for doing."

Rick can't have it both ways. Either the buck stops with him, or he has to stop making calls that are life and death for others. In a very unfair, very arbitrary apocalypse, its a sort of unfair the group shouldn't have to deal with, having Rick just jump in and do what he wants whenever he feels moved to do so.

I could make an argument that Shane could, using the EXACT SAME reasoning, said "I'm making the decision to bust open the barn and eliminate the Walkers inside for ME."

How's it different? Rick perceived Carol as a threat, so he got rid of her via his sense of entitlement to make such calls. Shane perceived that creaky-ass barn with its mini-horde of barely-contained Walkers as an imminent threat, and made a unilateral decision that was actually more valid than Rick's decision to oust Carol, because Shane announced his intentions prior to taking action, armed everyone, and let their willingness or unwillingness to participate in the Walker extermination speak for itself.

Watch the Mythbusters episode they referenced in last night's Talking Dead. Adam and Jamie empirically proved that the depicted # of Walkers in the barn could NOT ONLY breach it, but that a single surge of the majority of the Walker-bodies (you know, the type of behavior they exhibit ALL THE TIME at the Prison fence) would in Adam's words "Snap that 2x4 like a twig."

It's the SAME principle, like it or not. Worse, let's say that every major character recovers...Rick's actions have invalidated the Council. He's saying "If logistically speaking you guys aren't immediately available to weigh in on a major issue, I reserve the right to go over your heads and do whatever I think is best." Why have a Council if that's the case? Rick didn't even TRY to work within the system they've created. Carol could easily have been incarcerated until such time as the Council members either recovered and could address the situation, or various Council members die and replacements are voted in to address the issue.

Frankly, the Tyreese is going to rage out argument doesn't hold water either. He's such a loose cannon presently that he's a CLEAR AND PRESENT danger to himself and others.

A very good episode in so many ways, but I feel they're straying into non-fun territory with the Rick character...as he now does the very things he's killed others for doing, and doesn't seem to have any internal realization of that fact.

I guess you don't realize Rick made the Carol decision for the group but also for Carol's life. I'm surprised you didn't see it that way. And if she comes back to the prison with the sickness can you imagine the hysteria it would cause?

[sandrock74]

Why are people upset about Hershel using the gurney to wheel the dead out of the cell block? If you look at the gurney, it had at least one black strap on it, that common sense would say was used under the white sheet. Yes, the dead person would eventually reanimate, but the straps would prevent them from "springing up". Hershel is a decent man, yes, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he used any straps available on the gurney as a safety precaution.

[Andy]

https://scontent-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1379706_673940312646465_922848509_n.jpg

:lol:

[Legion2213]

Why are people upset about Hershel using the gurney to wheel the dead out of the cell block? If you look at the gurney, it had at least one black strap on it, that common sense would say was used under the white sheet. Yes, the dead person would eventually reanimate, but the straps would prevent them from "springing up". Hershel is a decent man, yes, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he used any straps available on the gurney as a safety precaution.


Yeah, I've no problem with Hersh dealing with the dead the way he is...these are his people, shanking them in the eye or ear in front of other people with exactly the same sickness isn't the most sensitive thing to do, all Hersh is doing is being considerate...which is why he is one of my favourite TWD characters, mostly because he refuses to let go of his basic humanity, whilst still understanding the situation they are in.

[Moon Knight]

Why are people upset about Hershel using the gurney to wheel the dead out of the cell block? If you look at the gurney, it had at least one black strap on it, that common sense would say was used under the white sheet. Yes, the dead person would eventually reanimate, but the straps would prevent them from "springing up". Hershel is a decent man, yes, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he used any straps available on the gurney as a safety precaution.

Because they rather him shank them in front of those whose fate mirrors those of the dearly departed; you know, like Carol would.

“A sad soul can kill quicker than a germ.”

[Ragnarr]

Hershel kicked ass like some uber bad Santa Claus! Also a grand tip-O-dee-chapeau to Rick & Carl's M-16 bullet vomit! Odd that they keep their weapons outdoors with gun barrels upwards though. Still a fun episode overall.

With regards to Hershel's actions wheeling the dead out of sight before the "knife netty treatment", he's the moral/religious compass for the group. Makes sense from that perspective I'd say.

[sandrock74]

Because they rather him shank them in front of those whose fate mirrors those of the dearly departed; you know, like Carol would.


One thing we all need to keep in mind: we don't know what anyone on the show would or wouldn't do in made up situations. Just for some examples: we don't know that Daryl will get pissed at Rick and leave to go search for Carol. We don't know that Carol would go on a shanking spree. We don't know Batman will beat up Superman, etc..

Unless someone is a writer on the show, they don't know what anyone will/would do. It's all just opinions in our heads what we think characters would do. (and we all know what they say about opinions! we all got 'em!)

I know, just speaking for myself, I like to relax and watch everything and enjoy it for what it is, escapist entertainment. I rather enjoy it when characters don't do what I would expect them to. Otherwise, where's the fun? (and Moony, this isn't directed at you, just a general blanket statement is all.)

[Moon Knight]

One thing we all need to keep in mind: we don't know what anyone on the show would or wouldn't do in made up situations. Just for some examples: we don't know that Daryl will get pissed at Rick and leave to go search for Carol. We don't know that Carol would go on a shanking spree. We don't know Batman will beat up Superman, etc..

Unless someone is a writer on the show, they don't know what anyone will/would do. It's all just opinions in our heads what we think characters would do. (and we all know what they say about opinions! we all got 'em!)

I know, just speaking for myself, I like to relax and watch everything and enjoy it for what it is, escapist entertainment. I rather enjoy it when characters don't do what I would expect them to. Otherwise, where's the fun? (and Moony, this isn't directed at you, just a general blanket statement is all.)

I could agree with that.

[facestabber]

One thing we all need to keep in mind: we don't know what anyone on the show would or wouldn't do in made up situations. Just for some examples: we don't know that Daryl will get pissed at Rick and leave to go search for Carol. We don't know that Carol would go on a shanking spree. We don't know Batman will beat up Superman, etc..

Unless someone is a writer on the show, they don't know what anyone will/would do. It's all just opinions in our heads what we think characters would do. (and we all know what they say about opinions! we all got 'em!)

I know, just speaking for myself, I like to relax and watch everything and enjoy it for what it is, escapist entertainment. I rather enjoy it when characters don't do what I would expect them to. Otherwise, where's the fun? (and Moony, this isn't directed at you, just a general blanket statement is all.)

Hold on. Batman can't beat up superman;). You must be riding high with your Lions taking command of the North

[Legion2213]

Because they rather him shank them in front of those whose fate mirrors those of the dearly departed; you know, like Carol would.

“A sad soul can kill quicker than a germ.”

Nah, Carol would sneak around and shank them in the dark, drag their bodies outside leaving a trail of blood and set fire to them...a very considerate and caring lass is our Carol...:D

[Moon Knight]

Nah, Carol would sneak around and shank them in the dark, drag their bodies outside leaving a trail of blood and set fire to them...a very considerate and caring lass is our Carol...:D

She sure has a way of doing thangs, doesn't she.

[sandrock74]

Hold on. Batman can't beat up superman;). You must be riding high with your Lions taking command of the North

Its the comics nerd in me :) And I'm a baseball and hockey guy. The Lions are doing good? I guess that's an okay thing then.

[Andy]

Woah woah woah...

Batman can and has beaten up superman several times, most recently in the dark knight returns.

Call yourselves nerds :shifty:

[Legion2213]

Woah woah woah...

Batman can and has beaten up superman several times, most recently in the dark knight returns.

Call yourselves nerds :shifty:

Beaten up is an understatement...he left him for dead in the Amazon didn't he? (haven't read it since it first came out, but I remember the brutal kicking he gave him!!!)

[Neil]

Only thing that annoyed me was how they still don't seem to be learning the basics. So there's a prison wing full of ill/dying people.... and... they still get caught out when one or more of the die?

It should be top of the list to close the doors all the time! Not just as a passing thought!

[Wyldwraith]

Problem with the blood trail thing:
Go back and watch every single head-stab you've ever seen. Even of Walkers that only turned moments prior. When have you EVER seen that HORRENDOUS amount of blood like those dragged bodies?
I'll bet dimes to dollars, WHOEVER DID IT, that the initial wounds were NOT brain-terminating. There's simply no way to get THAT much blood, PLUS blood on your HANDS to leave a bloody handprint with a simple head-stab. Karen and David were stabbed mortally, and then in the heads to prevent reanimation. It isn't EVIDENCE per se, but it does beg the question WHY, if it was indeed Carol who killed Karen & David, she would have knifed them anywhere but the head?

I mean, a human caught by surprise...or Hell, a human that SICK isn't any HARDER a target than a Walker skull. A possible answer could be Lizzie's child-like fascination with pooled blood....

[MinionZombie]

Hershal is suffering badly, seeing him get worn down to tears over the course of the episode made me feel really sad, I like the character a lot. His comment about "having come to this" now that they can't bury bodies and have to burn them instead was particularly poignant, this is a God fearing man who believes all the dead should have a decent burial.

The interactions between himself and Maggie are fantastic, real lump in the throat stuff sometimes, they are very believable as a father and daughter.

Carl is becoming a far better character as well, the kid is growing up and proved his worth helping his old man out with that breach and is just a Hell of a lot less annoying than he used to be. The writers seem to be scripting him as "trying his best" to make his dad proud and such-like.

Michonne cracked another huge smile when she spoke to Hersh...nice to see her becoming more human.

1) Agreed - a big old toll on Hershel in this one. I'd also like to point out, to those complaining about Hershel and the cell doors, that Hershel was constantly closing the doors - but it was the dozy bastards inside the cells that kept opening the doors half the time. In one case he'd just closed two doors, someone fell out of a third and died, and then the two he'd just closed were opened up by the looky-loo occupants. Hershel's essentially running the entire wing by himself, he's an old man with his work cut out, so he can only manage so much ... and if he locked the doors he wouldn't be able to get in and out as quickly as he'd need to if someone started choking on their own blood and gunk ... a walker wouldn't figure out to pull the door open, so that's okay.

2) Remember in season three when Hershel was on the bed with his leg off and Maggie was saying goodbye to him ... that was a hell of a gut punch scene. Cohan knocked that one right out of the park. It felt so true (indeed, IIRC, Mazzara/the writer based that scene on how they themselves said goodbye to their own father when they were on their death bed).

3) The evolution of Carl has been really good over the seasons. It's good to see he understands better now that you can't just run around shooting the place up - he's been taught that killing that boy in the woods was morally dubious at best, and murder at worst. There's a huge deal of importance attached to pulling a trigger, this ain't a game. It's good to see that Rick The Father has come to the fore again as the Rick/Carl relationship is absolutely essential - and central - to The Walking Dead in my view.

4) It was interesting to see Hershel go "hell yeah!" and be so gung-ho after he'd just been weeping in his cell hours prior. Maybe he just needed to get it out of his system ... and yeah, loving the lighter side of Michonne to nicely balance out the stony-faced sword-swinging moments. :cool:


I am computer illiterate and still havent figured out how to post multi quotes......I give up

On the right, beside "Reply With Quote", you'll see a button which will say "Multi-Quote This Message" when you hover over it. If you want to multi-quote say, three messages, you press that multi-quote button on the first two, and then on the third you click "Reply With Quote" - you'll then have those posts within your Reply window - just be careful to not delete any of for formatting or brackets. :)


This is the last time I watch a stream of anything at 2? in the morning. Couldn't help myself and drink had been taken. :o
I've now watched the episode on the tv with a sound system. What a difference. My opinion has completely changed.
A very good episode.

Piss head! :lol::D

Glad you dug it the second time around. :cool:

[babomb]

I called it spot on last week. No main characters lost, not even a mid level character. Only fodder characters. And the group foraging for supplies returns just in the nick of time to save the day.

It was a decent episode. Not great, not like last week. But better than the first 3 of the season.
Although it's getting kind of predictable.

[shootemindehead]

So, there's a big box'o'guns in yard and they wait until the fence breaks and all the lads pile in before they use them to thin out the numbers?

That's bleedin stupid.

Other than that, it was a grand episode.

[babomb]

Yeah, agreed shootem. But expecting realism from this show just leaves you disappointed.

[Andy]

So, there's a big box'o'guns in yard and they wait until the fence breaks and all the lads pile in before they use them to thin out the numbers?

That's bleedin stupid.

Other than that, it was a grand episode.

I can buy that the guns are there as a last resort only, their trying;

A. to avoid the noise of gunfire which would draw more walkers, possibly even a passing herd.

B. conserve ammunition.

:)

[babomb]

I can buy that the guns are there as a last resort only, their trying;

A. to avoid the noise of gunfire which would draw more walkers, possibly even a passing herd.

B. conserve ammunition.

:) The problems with that are;
1. There comes a point where reducing the noise of gunfire becomes less important than the immediate threat of so many walkers at the fence that it's inevitably coming down. It's easier to keep culling the numbers at the fence as more show up than it is to let the fence come down and then fire, attracting more walkers anyway, and having a large part of the fence damaged allowing them to flow in freely.

2. If they're trying to conserve ammo, not cutting loose in full auto, with tons of body shots seems like a good strategy. You have a better chance of sustaining single shot kills by firing through the fence in semi auto than waiting for the fence to be breached and dumping multiple mags into a large group. Either way, you're gonna attract more walkers. The difference is that 1 way allows you to still have a fence to keep them at bay as they arrive, the other means you have a huge breach in the fence and have already spent a large amount of ammo while walkers continue to arrive and flood through the breach.

Also, the fence has been a weak point of the prisons security since last season. Why haven't they reinforced it yet?

[Moon Knight]

I can buy that the guns are there as a last resort only, their trying;

A. to avoid the noise of gunfire which would draw more walkers, possibly even a passing herd.

B. conserve ammunition.

:)

Bingo. Here comes the flood of people complaining about logic again. We don't know when the guns were placed there so let's stop assuming.

[AcesandEights]

Bingo. Here comes the flood of people complaining about logic again. We don't know when the guns were placed there so let's stop assuming.

Yeah, MK, it always seems silly to me when people make negative assumptions, when they could just as easily make assumptions that are not only just as plausible, but make more sense and are in tune with the fictional world they're bothering to watch (ostensibly) for their own entertainment.

[facestabber]

The problems with that are;
1. There comes a point where reducing the noise of gunfire becomes less important than the immediate threat of so many walkers at the fence that it's inevitably coming down. It's easier to keep culling the numbers at the fence as more show up than it is to let the fence come down and then fire, attracting more walkers anyway, and having a large part of the fence damaged allowing them to flow in freely.

2. If they're trying to conserve ammo, not cutting loose in full auto, with tons of body shots seems like a good strategy. You have a better chance of sustaining single shot kills by firing through the fence in semi auto than waiting for the fence to be breached and dumping multiple mags into a large group. Either way, you're gonna attract more walkers. The difference is that 1 way allows you to still have a fence to keep them at bay as they arrive, the other means you have a huge breach in the fence and have already spent a large amount of ammo while walkers continue to arrive and flood through the breach.

Also, the fence has been a weak point of the prisons security since last season. Why haven't they reinforced it yet?

You are right Babomb. I didnt mind or fault not shooting at the fence only because I enjoyed the father/son shoot/bond moment. To me it was worth it. A plot device to give us a cool scene. Practical? No. But I can live with it.

The full auto issue. I thought about complaining as we both know the gun handling issues have never been a strong suit. Even Ricks quick tutorial about slapping the bolt closed first, inserting mag then pulling the "operating bolt"(i think he said) didnt make sense. I am an advocate for semi auto. Having a full auto rifle at my disposal it is far easier to shoot accurately and repeatedly with semi. Full auto has its use though. And actually when I rewatched this scene they were shooting short bursts. I wouldnt say that is horrible considering you have a slow moving force that is funneled and all standing at similar height. If a person knows how to lean into auto fire with controlled bursts and slight and I mean slight sweeping motions in those circumstances it could be effective. Carl's stance and even Ricks to a lesser extent show neither was positioned correctly though. Im nitpicking here though. It was good enough for me. Had they went full Steele mode then it would have been beyond rediculous if it was effective.

And you know why the fence hasnt been reinforced yet? Rick tossed Carol.....I kid I kid

[kidgloves]

Some of you seem to be under the impression this is a survival documentary. It isn't. Its based on a comic.
Besides, if they executed the perfect survival plan it would be boring as hell. We probably wouldn't even see a zombie.

[facestabber]

Some of you seem to be under the impression this is a survival documentary. It isn't. Its based on a comic.
Besides, if they executed the perfect survival plan it would be boring as hell. We probably wouldn't even see a zombie.

I agree with you. It would be boring. But sometimes you have to talk about stuff on a forum. I still believe this is the best tv show in my history. I love it. Cant get enough. Sometimes we have to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride.

And comic role or not I need more Maggie.

[Moon Knight]

I agree with you. It would be boring. But sometimes you have to talk about stuff on a forum. I still believe this is the best tv show in my history. I love it. Cant get enough. Sometimes we have to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the ride.

And comic role or not I need more Maggie.

Discussion topics like the previous "Indifference" thread are awesome. Discussions about logic on a TV show like this just comes off as complaining and is pretty annoying; especially when it feels like people are purposely looking for holes to yap about.

[AcesandEights]

I still believe this is the best tv show in my history.

Better than Manimal? Oh, Face, how you do go on. :)

[Neil]

So, there's a big box'o'guns in yard and they wait until the fence breaks and all the lads pile in before they use them to thin out the numbers?

That's bleedin stupid.

Indeed! Maybe they needed a comment in there before on not wanting to waste their ammo!?

[MinionZombie]

If they had a shitload of fuel to spare they could have just sprayed the herd down and lit them up - if Carol was still around she'd have loved doing that chore! :elol:

Of course, they have neither ... but a nerd can postulate. :p

Agreed on the logic nitpicking - to an extent it's valid, but at the same time there's so much other stuff to get on with that you'd severely hinder yourself if you had a big old breakdown of every single set design decision or whatever ... they could have just thrown a tarp over the top of the crate and had some rope around some loops to keep it from blowing away - it keeps the rain out ... however, in the heat of the moment, you're wasting precious on-screen seconds to tell the rest of your story by showing them having to - in this scenario - pull off the secured tarp. It's better to let some little details slide and have enough time to cover your drama and action needs ... ... although they could have had a box with a lid on it - flip the lid and done.

However, the showmakers have so many decisions to make on a daily basis, with so many things to think about concerning plot and season-wide character arcs (even cross-season arcs) that a poxy box becomes absolutely meaningless by comparison, so it's not worth the worry. They need a box of guns at that moment - here, have a box of guns.

I saw a comment elsewhere where someone was complaining that Rick used an incorrect term regarding a particular piece of that assault rifle when he was quickly teaching Carl how to use it ... but another poster made a good point in arguing that Rick was using simpler terminology (especially in the panic-stricken heat of that moment as they're about to be swarmed upon) to get the point across to Carl in an easier fashion.

I keep thinking about that scene with Carl and Rick shooting up the walkers ... an awesome scene ... action packed, yes, but a father and son side-by-side, defending their camp from doom, really got my hair standing on end. Rick's look at Carl - a mixture of pride that his son is so capable, but also fear and confusion - this is a child, his child, and here they are fighting for their lives by shooting walkers ... in any other context a child with an assault rifle would be a thing to fear. That bizarre schism in Rick's look was really powerful ... the actors have a lot of cool moments to slip in these complex emotions. Great stuff.

[sandrock74]

Discussions about logic on a TV show like this just comes off as complaining and is pretty annoying; especially when it feels like people are purposely looking for holes to yap about.

I tend to agree. I love the idea of formulating my own "ideal plans" in the situations I see presented on the show (or in the comic) but being nitpicky looking for plot holes gets boring.

[Legion2213]

If you look for faults in TV series, (any TV series ever made), you will find them.

Hell, if somebody had used a decent fingerprint team in Breaking Bad, Walt and Jesse would have both been locked up by the end of season 2 at the latest, their dabs were at every major murder scene and meth related incident in the show, but you let it go, you decide if the good outweighs the bad, you decide if you will forgive flaws in a great 45 minutes or so of entertainment.

I could personally point out and fix flaws in every TV series I've ever seen and loved...but I couldn't create or drive these series, so I am just thankful they are there and on standby if any of them ever need an outside opinion. :D

[Neil]

Have we all forgotten about the rats/mice at the fence?

[Legion2213]

Have we all forgotten about the rats/mice at the fence?

The original edit of this episode finished with a slow reveal shot of the governor holding a catapult and a bag of rats.

True fact.

(okay, it's probably that weird scary girl)

[Moon Knight]

Have we all forgotten about the rats/mice at the fence?

Not at all. I'm surprised it hasn't gotten too much of an emphasis on the show since 4x2. Then again we haven't seen Beth and Judith two episodes in a row. I believe our answer will be given soon enough as the mid season finale approaches. Do we still think Lizzie did it? I sure do.

[facestabber]

Have we all forgotten about the rats/mice at the fence?

Not too far fetched to assume the Gov has been watching them for awhile including seeing their strategic holes in the fence. I think they are mostly twist tied so he doesnt need a key. And team prison has become too complacent to keep a 24/7 watch so nightfall can easily mask the Gov's movements.

[zombieparanoia]

I thought it was a pretty good episode. I'd like to see how Daryl reacts to the carol exile.

I have a theory: Daryl (maybe with michonne) goes to find her and run into the governor and it goes kind of comic like and then the Gov kills daryl. Because Daryl has become more of a fan favorite than rick by a long shot and rick is supposed to be the protagonist in this show. I certainly hope this doesn't happen and think the show would lose a lot of interest (for me for certain)if they did kill off daryl for shock and awe value.

Meh about the gun handling issue.

What did bother me, and has bothered me int he past is this: WTF is with the governor having the "stealth mode" cheat code? Seems that even with enough walkers around to be dangerous to the fence he can just chill and stand around and watch the prison. Like when he grabbed andrea, walkers everywhere EXCEPT where he's wrestling a struggling woman to the ground and tying her up?

Maybe he got it the same place hershel got his infinite ammo cheat.

Re: the governor storyline; In my perfect walking dead show they'd give the governor lizzie as a replacement for his daughter/niece and she'd stab him in the dick.

[sandrock74]

Keeping watch at night is almost useless with no electricity. With no lights, anyone on guard (say in what's left of the guard tower(s)) wouldn't be able to see much of anything unless its the time of the full moon and it happens to be a clear night. Still, a couple of people walking a tight perimeter around the buildings wouldn't be a bad idea.

Daylight hours is another story, in which I'd want a couple "eyes in the sky" at all times and be sure to equip them with binoculars.

[babomb]

Some of you seem to be under the impression this is a survival documentary. It isn't. Its based on a comic.
Besides, if they executed the perfect survival plan it would be boring as hell. We probably wouldn't even see a zombie. Nobody is under that impression. It's based on a comic, but it's meant to be more realistic than most shows based on comics.
I'm certainly not saying they should have formulated a perfect survival plan and executed it. There is no perfect survival plan. Unexpected things happen and plans have to change. Some consistency and forethought would only add to the overall experience though. Some of us are just pointing out areas that could use some more thought and attention to details.

But when it comes to firearms, it's as if the assumption in the creative dept is that guns are guns, you point and shoot. No need to keep them maintained, or to conserve ammo. No need to even pay attention to how many rounds any specific gun can hold. As if viewers are all idiots and won't notice that a pump action shotgun that holds a max of 8 rounds just fired off 30 rounds with no reload.
That one sure got alot of attention here on the forums. But that's something that even folks with little experience with guns will notice, so it's not considered nitpicking. But things that are obvious to people with more experience, that's nitpicking.:rolleyes:

[Morto Vivente]

With regards to Hershel's actions wheeling the dead out of sight before the "knife netty treatment", he's the moral/religious compass for the group. Makes sense from that perspective I'd say.


I agree. Rightly or wrongly I'd say Herschel is preserving what he feels he can from the pre-za days in the face of everything. He isn't ping-ponging from pre-za values to the other extreme, as I think Rick did for a time after killing Shane (by necessity).

[Neil]

You are right Babomb. I didnt mind or fault not shooting at the fence only because I enjoyed the father/son shoot/bond moment. To me it was worth it. A plot device to give us a cool scene. Practical? No. But I can live with it.

The full auto issue. I thought about complaining as we both know the gun handling issues have never been a strong suit. Even Ricks quick tutorial about slapping the bolt closed first, inserting mag then pulling the "operating bolt"(i think he said) didnt make sense. I am an advocate for semi auto. Having a full auto rifle at my disposal it is far easier to shoot accurately and repeatedly with semi. Full auto has its use though. And actually when I rewatched this scene they were shooting short bursts. I wouldnt say that is horrible considering you have a slow moving force that is funneled and all standing at similar height. If a person knows how to lean into auto fire with controlled bursts and slight and I mean slight sweeping motions in those circumstances it could be effective. Carl's stance and even Ricks to a lesser extent show neither was positioned correctly though. Im nitpicking here though. It was good enough for me. Had they went full Steele mode then it would have been beyond rediculous if it was effective.

And you know why the fence hasnt been reinforced yet? Rick tossed Carol.....I kid I kid

My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival?

[babomb]

My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival? Exactly. In the south, with the humidity, in a dirty environment? Those aren't AK's, they're prone to failure from environmental conditions.

On the full auto issue, I understand why they do it. It looks cool. And it isn't technically full auto, it's burst fire. Fires 3 rounds everytime the trigger is pressed. But they obviously have a very limited supply of ammo. They can't afford to burn through it like that. They don't have the option of waiting for resupply, what they have is what they have. And they don't know what's gonna happen in the future. They know the governer is out there somewhere, they see more and more walkers appear at the fence daily. It's obvious that there's a supply situation. So for them to throw caution to the wind like that means they're oblivious to these issues. Which is impossible.

Then there's the fence issue. They've known forever that the fence is weak. But the only time they pay any attention to that and try to reinforce it is when there's a huge amount of walkers on it and it's about to come down. Ya think maybe it would be a good idea to address that issue in a more sensible manner? They had the "cold crew" out there thinning the numbers for months, and nobody thought to themselves that the fence was a serious weak point and should be reinforced NOW, before it becomes a major problem as it is now?

It's not just the fact that these things don't make sense. It's that they're simple plot devices put there intentionally. They indicate lazy, predictable writing.

[AcesandEights]

My biggest issue with the guns was - if I recall correctly - they just seemed to be stashed in big barrel outside? Hardly good gun care for something that's so very important for their survival?

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions.

Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? :rockbrow:

Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense?

[shootemindehead]

Indeed! Maybe they needed a comment in there before on not wanting to waste their ammo!?

That would have been fine. But really it's a silly writing mistake more than anything else.

Also, my point is, that in the space of a few minutes Rick and Carl exterminate the entire swarm that's been threatening to knock the fence down for a couple of episodes now and that really could have been done before, instead of dicking about with supports?

It's only a niggle...but still.

Thinning out the numbers at the fence should be the No.1 priorty as far as I would be concerned.

[Moon Knight]

No, I don't need basic logic explained to me for a scene like that to work cause it was freakin' badass. I'm not gonna assume the guns were placed outside the entire time cause I don't know that and niether do any of you. The heavy guns and ammo were saved for when the shit hits the fan and that it certainly did last Sunday.

[Neil]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions.

Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? :rockbrow:

Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense?

Why would they wheel barrels/boxes of guns around over and over? Why not just show them opening up a permanent storage locker, outside door, back of a vehicle where the guns are stored permanently?

I'll agree it's a minor thing, just my brain fired off when I saw that scene...

[Wyldwraith]

One point:
That "side-opening draw bridge" of theirs was no simply bit of engineering. The Mythbusters guy said as much during the zombie episode of Mythbusters. But let's skip hyper-realism, to simply ask: "If they already had a large pool of manpower on the gate job, why not move on to outer fence reinforcement as soon as the gate was done? As Adam pointed out on Talking Dead, the Prison HAS to have a machine shop, and for their purposes you only need scrap metal and the most primitive of welding (or hell, even bending the ends of long pieces of metal hook-like through the holes in the inner and outer fence).

Failing that, with all the pointless effort put into logging for reinforcement-poles doomed to failure, they could have simply piled a mountain of heavy junk from the base of the fence to about 60-65% of the way to the top. The Prison is huge, thousands of metal bunk frames, doors that can be taken down because they aren't needed...or HELLO CELL DOORS from any of the hundreds of cells unneeded by the Prison inhabitants. Metal tables from the undoubtedly sizable Prison Cafeteria. The list is night unto endless. I don't feel like it's a nitpick because that gate isn't just functional, it LOOKS very well-fashioned. Any group capable of creating that gate could do WAY better than poorly-angled wooden rods for fence reinforcement.

Add to that, Carol's comment to Daryl in the first episode of the Season indicates they've been having these very large overnight swells in Walker numbers at the fence for AT LEAST a month. Ie: "We had a major increase overnight in the # of Walkers at the fence. They're clustered between Towers X and Y (forgot the #'s she used). It hasn't been this bad since last month! So, it's not like a large herd just suddenly wandered into the area similar to the farm's downfall. Hell, as a friend of mine pointed out: "Hang SHEETS just inside the fence so the Walkers can't see people moving around the Prison grounds nearly so much. In the absence of visual or auditory stimuli, Walkers are dumb enough to lose interest EVENTUALLY, even if they saw the people put the sheets up. Not suggesting it would eliminate every single Walker from pressing on the fence, but based on whats been revealed to us so far concerning Walker attention spans and response to external stimuli, there's no reason it wouldn't work that I can see.

Either way, ignoring the fence until it begins to bulge inwards under the sheer press of Walker bodies was epic shortsightedness. ESPECIALLY when it's been such a daily problem for long enough that a NICKNAME had already popped up for those working the fence. Ie: Cold Crews. Yes, I understand they'd planned the fence breach since LAST season writing-wise, but it's still one of those things that makes it harder to suspend disbelief.

All that said, I know I've been a bit outspoken in my criticism of certain plot elements this season....but I am FAR happier with the overall quality of this Season so far than I was all but maybe one or two episodes of Last Season. The dialog is better, the godawful Woodbury-Prison pingpong is over, the Walkers have reclaimed their status as a major threat to continued life (Whereas last season the only time Walkers seemed dangerous was when the Governor was deploying them as undead conscripts) and the character interactions flow much more believably, rather than just tunneling in on a couple characters' back-and-forth for a couple episodes at a time.

Finally, the imagination when it comes to Walkers and the situations they're encountered in really hearkens back to the awesome stuff in Season 1 and a few parts of Season 2. The Walkers through the ceiling, the overgrown vegetation they burst out of...or even something non-threatening along the lines of bicycle Walker. Roots-and-vegetation Walker lying at the base of that tree. I'm really digging Season 4, moreso than I imagined I ever would after Season 3's disappointments, so I think that's why I feel so strongly when they strike an off-key note in the story.

Just thought that as negative as I've been I should focus for a bit on the positives. If they just get Rick tightened down a bit, with less erratic and arbitrary stuff from the Rick-character, a so-far golden season could turn platinum.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[facestabber]

Keeping watch at night is almost useless with no electricity. With no lights, anyone on guard (say in what's left of the guard tower(s)) wouldn't be able to see much of anything unless its the time of the full moon and it happens to be a clear night. Still, a couple of people walking a tight perimeter around the buildings wouldn't be a bad idea.

Daylight hours is another story, in which I'd want a couple "eyes in the sky" at all times and be sure to equip them with binoculars.


I understand visibility is hindered at night but I believe they should still have eyes open and armed on the roof. They may not see who or what is in the tree line but they would know if the fence got breached in the middle of the night. Which would be good to know when the morning crew opens the doors to step outside to several dozen walkers. Or if the Gov or any gang decided to drive down the fence to make life difficult. Complacency and I get it. Its human nature. Its probably realistic that the show doesnt have 24 hour watch. But I would.

Didnt mean to stir up the weapon handling debate. Like I said I just learned to accept it. But hearing Rick tell Carl to hold down the trigger for auto/rapid fire is laughable. And to my fellow posters here that dont 'get' guns. The M4's they were using are select fire. Switch from single to auto with your thumb. Oh crap I did it again. No more gun talk.

Babomb. Im pretty sure the M4 was never built with 3 round burst(maybe illegally built civilian models). The military did eliminate full auto from their M16A2 for a period.

I will take Aces idea and assume the behavior was thought out and made sense.

[MinionZombie]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions.

Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? :rockbrow:

Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense?

Well said Aces. :cool:


Thinning out the numbers at the fence should be the No.1 priorty as far as I would be concerned.

To be fair there was a scene earlier in the episode where Maggie's out there popping walker heads like they're going out of fashion, but the crowd is just so large she can barely make a dent no matter how fast she goes. So it makes sense to shore up the fence in the meantime to buy yourself some precious time - and you don't want to use the guns unless you really have to because of the noise and the problems that can cause.

Also, their numbers were stretched very thin - Daryl & Co hadn't returned yet, Hershel was helping the sick, so you've got Carl, Maggie, and Rick ... and then Maggie's inside with Glenn when the shit kicks off, so you've only got Rick and Carl available for dealing with the fence. So they were really low on manpower.

[babomb]

Neil, this is perfectly illustrative of what I was saying about people making negative assumptions.

Does it make sense that the guns were out there day after day, in the sun when it was sunny, in the rain when it was rainy? No? Then why assume they were there around the clock and not positioned out there shortly prior to the scene when things were getting 'hot' and they were low on personnel to deal with the very real possibility of the fence being breached? :rockbrow:

Why assume behavior that makes no sense, as opposed to assuming something that does make sense? I see what you're saying. But it's far more likely that the writers never really thought that far into the situation. You'd think that if they had they might show a brief 2 second scene of someone loading rifles into the container. It's just more likely that the writers thought process was that they keep a couple rifles there just in case. Never considering that it would actually be a dumb move to do so.
I'd be more inclined to assume otherwise if there was a history of them taking the smaller details into account. But they have a tendency to overlook those details for the most part.

For example, as Wyld pointed out, they constructed this behemoth front gate to protect from having the gate rammed again. And they put up spike barriers on both sides of it. But it seems they never did anything to the rest of the fence. Should we assume that they have reinforced all other parts of the fence except the parts where the walkers have torn it down?
Or is it safe to assume that it's just an oversight on the part of the writers? Or a plot device to be exploited in a future episode?

There's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary. But I think they might be too dependent on that these days.

[Legion2213]

For example, as Wyld pointed out, they constructed this behemoth front gate to protect from having the gate rammed again. And they put up spike barriers on both sides of it. But it seems they never did anything to the rest of the fence. Should we assume that they have reinforced all other parts of the fence except the parts where the walkers have torn it down?
Or is it safe to assume that it's just an oversight on the part of the writers? Or a plot device to be exploited in a future episode?

There's a certain suspension of disbelief that's necessary. But I think they might be too dependent on that these days.

Wave it away by thinking the gate was a priority, the fence was secondary and about to be started on...but then the super-duper flu hit them.

Somebody also mentioned that the walkers were moving about from one spot to another, so they'd shore up one part and then they'd move somewhere else (explained by the tasty rat treats somebody has been leaving). There is a LOT of fence to secure for such a small group with limited resources.

[shootemindehead]

To be fair there was a scene earlier in the episode where Maggie's out there popping walker heads like they're going out of fashion, but the crowd is just so large she can barely make a dent no matter how fast she goes. So it makes sense to shore up the fence in the meantime to buy yourself some precious time - and you don't want to use the guns unless you really have to because of the noise and the problems that can cause.

Also, their numbers were stretched very thin - Daryl & Co hadn't returned yet, Hershel was helping the sick, so you've got Carl, Maggie, and Rick ... and then Maggie's inside with Glenn when the shit kicks off, so you've only got Rick and Carl available for dealing with the fence. So they were really low on manpower.

All they needed was two people, two minutes and two M16's. Job done.

I'd have taken the chance on the noise factor, rather than wait for the fence to crumble, possibly at night, when everyone is sleepy sleep.

[Legion2213]

All they needed was two people, two minutes and two M16's. Job done.

I'd have taken the chance on the noise factor, rather than wait for the fence to crumble, possibly at night, when everyone is sleepy sleep.

No way, remember the size of that zombie herd that Daryl and co bumped into? You do NOT want to be attracting that sort of attention (which is exactly what I am hoping will happen because of the mass shooting at the breach...of course I'm a viewer, and not stuck in the prison!) ;)

The fence situation could have been controlled in silence with melee weapons if they didn't have so many people dead and dying from the flu or whatever it is...start of the season they had 4 or 5 folks going at it every day, the last episode had little Maggie all on her own.

[babomb]

Wave it away by thinking the gate was a priority, the fence was secondary and about to be started on...but then the super-duper flu hit them.

Somebody also mentioned that the walkers were moving about from one spot to another, so they'd shore up one part and then they'd move somewhere else (explained by the tasty rat treats somebody has been leaving). There is a LOT of fence to secure for such a small group with limited resources. I could go with that if there was actually parts of the fence that they started on, or even a very brief conversation regarding it. As it stands it seems like they just trusted the fence as it is.
It was what, 6 months since last season? It took them all that time to build the gate and the spikes on each side? And that's exactly where this season started? Like a day after the gate was done, before they started on the rest? Why wouldn't they just continue building spikes and put them along the base of the fence? They were already building them. Why stop construction there when it was already underway? You wouldn't. You'd make a plan to do the whole thing and continue until it was done. They never showed anyone building anything, there's no half built spike barriers laying around that we've seen. Not even a pile of sharpened logs.

There's every indication that there was no plan for the fence. Their plan was to keep popping the walkers through the fence, day after day with a team of people. Do the math on that. How much energy does that require in the long run, and how much room for error does a plan like that allow?

[Moon Knight]

They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you.

[sandrock74]

They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you.

Yet again I find myself in agreement with The Fist of Khonshu.

My question about setting up the spikes along the fence is how would they have done it? Would they have waited for a zombie union break? Run out, place one and run back in, again and again? Activate their borrowed Predator cloaking devices while working on it? That kind of job would be a suicide trip; it would have been costly.

[babomb]

They waited this long too fortify the fences cause they wanted to entertain all of you. That's exactly my point.

As to how they'd do it, how would they have built the gate and put the barriers on the sides of it? My theory would be that they'd build the spike barriers in sections, up in the court area out of sight of the walkers. Put it on the pickup trailer, have the cold crew distract many of the walkers from inside the fence. Have a guard team of 4 guys play escort to the 2 or 3 guys that take the barrier off the trailer and put it in place. Keep luring the walkers away from the area that they're working at, go back and get the next barrier section and do it again.
Once you have the sections built it wouldn't really take too long to stop the truck and everyone jumps out into formation to protect the 2 or 3 guys it takes to lift the barrier off the trailer and put it in place. They could attach small lengths of chain to the bottom of the 2 inner "bookend" spikes in each section and drive them in the ground from inside the fence.
It wouldn't be as difficult as you think. You could park the truck at the gate with a couple sections loaded up on the trailer and leave it there while everyone lures the walkers further and further away from the area where they're gonna be placed. Then when the walkers are well distracted, charge out the gate and put them in place.
They wouldn't even have to use those spiked barriers. Like Wyld said, even old junk would do the trick. Even just some wood or metal poles driven well into the ground on the inside of the fence would help alot. If they can build that functioning gate and put it in place, they can sure as hell reinforce the fence. We're talking about human beings here. Humans have a way of figuring shit out.

But as was said, the writers chose not to do that because having the fence come down is part of the storyline this season. It was done this way so that we could be entertained. To me that's an indication of how lazy the writing is getting to be. They're resting on their laurels.

All bitching and nitpicking aside, this season is way better than last season. And the last 2 episodes have been alot better than the previous 3. I really hope that continues. I just wish the writers would stop screwing around with biodegradable plot devices and pay just a little more attention to detail.

[sandrock74]

No thanks, I can't imagine how boring it would be having to watch something as monotonous as everyone working like that to fortify the fences.

This reminds me of a comic book story I heard once. At the end of the Dark Phoenix Saga in the X-Men, the Imperial Guard wiped the floor with the X-Men, who fought in vain to save Phoenix/Marvel Girl. In the end, fearing the danger that she herself presented, Phoenix killed herself, as it was the only way she knew how to keep the earth safe. People have often asked co-plotter/penciler John Byrne why didn't the X-Men call for help, as it was specifically shown that they had prep time before the final battle went down. The Beast was with the X-Men there and at the time he was a member in standing of the Avengers. "Why didn't the X-Men call the Avengers for help?" was the question I've heard brought up to him. His answer was simple, (and I'm paraphrasing here as I'm too lazy too look up the conversation) The X-Men were required by the story to lose. Even if they had called in the Avengers, even the Fantastic Four as well, the X-Men still had to lose because Phoenix had to die.

Basically, yes, the fence needed to come down as a point of the storyline this season. Even if they had four back-to-back episodes of showing them building a strong perimeter around the fence, it was still going to come down. The writers didn't have a lack of attention to detail, a lack of a perimeter is what helped to bring the fence down, which is what they needed. I don't see how that's lazy writing. Remember, this isn't a realistic survival show; it's a show in which zombies are shambling about and the earth is, for all intents and purposes, a dead world. I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.

First, foremost and final this show is for entertainment purposes.

[Wyldwraith]

To respond:
1) Reinforcement of the fence doesn't necessarily equate to "Impregnable Castle." A mountain of junk would've prevented the CURRENT # of Walkers/Current level of Walker-density from breaching the fence, but we've already seen that the largest herd the group has yet seen is in the area. They could easily have done something like this: The fence reinforcement via piling heavy junk more than 2/3 of the way to the top of the fence reinforces the fence sure, but it ALSO makes eliminating Walkers THROUGH the fence far more difficult. This could easily have explained how the Walkers built up to such an extent they breached the fence, accomplishing the writers objective of bringing the fence down, while at the same time preserving a sense of realism that would've cost nothing more than the low men on the set-design totem pole piling up assorted Prison-type junk along the outer fence's inside.

2) The group has already lost one dwelling place they (foolishly, as it turns out) PRESUMED safe, mainly due to the herd wandering nearby being drawn in by the sound of gunshots when the Shane Vs Rick thing went down. So Rick in PARTICULAR has EVERY REASON to seek any and all alternatives that don't involve popping off several hundred rounds in short order. Rick and Carl directly witnessed the almost-immediate repercussions of shooting Shane, and then the Shane-Walker, as Walkers began flooding out of the treeline within SECONDS of the shots.

3) If you've already established that someone who isn't right in the head is attracting Walkers to the fence feeding them live mice/rats, and you've established the Governor's return, there was a preexisting basis for human-based sabotage of the fence. Here's a simple example: They rely on wiring shut the cuts they've made in the fence to use as entrances/exits to keep the Walkers from entering via those cut areas of the fence. Whatever the fence-reinforcement effort had consisted of, they've been using that system for moving inside and outside the fence for over a full Season now...so it almost goes without saying that they WOULDN'T pile junk in front of their fence-access-points, or if they did it would probably be one single heavy object, like say, a washer or dryer from the Prison Laundry. Either the "Walker Feeder" or the Governor could easily have been depicted as simply unwiring one of their holes in the fence, and doing something to widen/keep the gap open so that Walkers could easily penetrate the outer fence.

4) The whole wooden pole reinforcement plan drives me bonkers. They kept setting the poles against the bottom 25% of the fence, which allowed the force the Walkers were exerting with their pushing to be conveyed nonstop to the mid-points of each wooden pole. Just angling them higher would've made them more effective.

5) The Inner Fence: The group lost people, including Rick's loss of Lori due to an internal Walker-breach. The Governor left a large truck where Farmer Rick is now growing peas (the one with the .50 machinegun they disabled, before also disabling the truck. We KNOW they moved it a great distance, because it's nowhere to be seen in the "farm-area" so why not pushing it through the inner fence's gate, and leave it parked as dead weight in front of that very small section of movable inner fence that the Walkers took down so easily. With that truck in position those Walkers could've beat on that fence-gate until there wasn't any flesh left on their hands and arms and it never would've come down.

Some may call this stuff nitpicking, but the story included these significant events. (Like the disabled "Machinegun Truck" being moved completely out of the farming area.) If you include something in your story, your audience is going to have questions about that inclusion. Such as: "If they went to the trouble of moving that big disabled truck completely out of the inner grassy area that's become their farmland, why leave that multi-ton chunk of metal just sitting somewhere uselessly. You're already spending time and manpower on moving it, why not double your benefits and get more out of the move than just freeing up the farmland?" Or: "Given that the overnight population surging of Fence-Walkers has become commonplace for at LEAST the last month, why was there no sign they had any other plan than just keeping the Cold Crews busy stabbing Walker heads through the fence? Again, the survivors of the Herschel-farm downfall are nightmarishly familiar with how everything can seem safe as houses one day, but be on the run from a tidal wave of Walkers by nightfall. There were many, MANY ways they still could've had the fence-breach to serve the story they wanted to tell, WITHOUT making it seem like the group simply doesn't learn from near-death errors.

Want a badass scene? Remember how I mentioned it would be far more difficult to eliminate Walkers through the fence the way the Cold Crews were doing it if they'd piled a ton of junk inside the fence to reinforce it? That ever-increasing # of Walkers could've been depicted as overturning the disabled truck in front of the inner fence, and then scrambling over and around it like ants pouring over an obstacle. Wouldn't that have been an even more chilling opener to the Carl/Rick side-by-side Walker slaughtering scene? It would've fit perfectly with the "zombie theme" of "pitifully weak when alone, unstoppable as a tidal wave as a huge mass."

Just because the writers decide the story calls for a setback to the protagonist efforts, it doesn't necessarily follow that the characters need to make a critical error they've already had an intense life-or-death learning experience with. Smart fence reinforcement doesn't HAVE to mean the Walkers become impotent in their efforts to breach the fence(s). If you want simpler, they could've just CGI-added a bunch more Walkers coming out of the treeline, and then narrowed the focus of the shot to depict matters as if this huge mass of Walkers simply overwhelmed even the prudent efforts at fence-reinforcement.

Finally, think back to great "Zombie Overrun Scenes"...like the zombies busting through every boarded up window and door within seconds of each other, and pouring into the house in Night. The zombies relentlessness was underscored to a greater degree by the intelligently constructed barricades they had to overwhelm. When you as a viewer see a relatively imposing defensive measure in a zombie flick, and the zombies STILL overwhelm it, doesn't the very fact that the barrier which up until now had been holding them at bay was imposing make the zombies seem even more like an unstoppable crescendo of rotting flesh and singleminded focus?

All I'm saying is that an already enjoyable scene would have been even better had the Walkers needed to overwhelm fence-reinforcement that was better implemented than the simpleminded nonsense with the low-angled logs. Seeing them pour over and around the overturned truck where they were met with a hail of desperate gunfire by Rick & Carl working as a well-oiled machine of zombie termination could only have heightened an already tense scene, at no more cost than the changing of a few set pieces when it came to fence-reinforcement and the addition of a truck.

NOT saying the episode was bad. FAR from it. Just saying that a few more refinements could've tied things together even better, at little cost to the crew.

[shootemindehead]

No way, remember the size of that zombie herd that Daryl and co bumped into? You do NOT want to be attracting that sort of attention (which is exactly what I am hoping will happen because of the mass shooting at the breach...of course I'm a viewer, and not stuck in the prison!) ;)

The fence situation could have been controlled in silence with melee weapons if they didn't have so many people dead and dying from the flu or whatever it is...start of the season they had 4 or 5 folks going at it every day, the last episode had little Maggie all on her own.

They're few and far between in the world of TWD though. We've only seen one herd that size.

Besides, they're making noise all the flippin time. Driving in an out, shouting and roaring at each other...there's all sorts of banging and bashing going on every day.

And as far as I could see Melee weapons weren't doing the job quick enough.

Anyway, it's just the writing...there has to be some sort of action sequences I suppose.

[MinionZombie]

I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.

A perfect summation of the issue at hand. :cool:


They're few and far between in the world of TWD though. We've only seen one herd that size.

Besides, they're making noise all the flippin time. Driving in an out, shouting and roaring at each other...there's all sorts of banging and bashing going on every day.

And as far as I could see Melee weapons weren't doing the job quick enough.

A gunshot will carry far further, and be much louder, than anyone shouting at each other ... and who's to say there was a lot of hashing and bashing going on? In episode one they all look rather content and happy with everyone around them. Even when Ty, Daryl, and Rick were going at it in their "brotangle", they were in a confined space with high walls in the heart of the prison complex - that sound ain't gonna carry very far, and it's an isolated incident.

There's been a gradual increase in walkers - in the first episode they talk about more of them showing up - it seems to be a relatively recent problem for them. Compare the end of season three to the beginning of season four in terms of walker numbers outside the fences - you've got to build up to that point over several months, and with winter in-between the walkers are going to be slower than usual, so again you've got a respite.

...

In terms of being able to set up the spikes etc by the new gate - well, they had to set up a new gate, so there's no two ways about it ... also, they would have done it shortly after their encounter with The Governor, so you've got a new influx of helpers and not that many walkers outside the fences. With the likes of Daryl and Michonne you've got two expert walker killers thinning out any numbers, plus you'd have people between the fences drawing other small groups of walkers away with noise elsewhere. It's totally do-able.

[shootemindehead]

A gunshot will carry far further, and be much louder, than anyone shouting at each other ...

That would depend.

In the open, a crack from a gun doesn't sound like it does indoors and it certainly doesn't sound like it does on a 5.1 surround sound system. It can be surprisingly weak.

Yes, it's louder than shouting and repeat firing is louder still. But they've been chopping, banging and bashing logs for supports etc, plus they made a big set of main gates. They didn't do that in silence. They've been making plenty of noise.

However...dicking about in a futile manner with the fence or spending two minutes shooting. I'd spend the two minutes shooting and clear the problem.

Then fix the fence.

Doing what the characters did was simply waiting for disaster.



As Sarah says: "IF WE GET A LOT MORE, COME OUT AND SHOOT SOME"

[babomb]

No thanks, I can't imagine how boring it would be having to watch something as monotonous as everyone working like that to fortify the fences. Yeah, umm, I agree 100% there. Never once did I say or even imply that I wanted to see that entire process play out on screen. It goes without saying that it would be boring and a waste of episode time.
Someone asked how it would even be possible, and I gave a general theory. Not an endorsement for seeing the whole thing on screen. Maybe just the result would deserve a little screen time? Maybe?

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Basically, yes, the fence needed to come down as a point of the storyline this season. Even if they had four back-to-back episodes of showing them building a strong perimeter around the fence, it was still going to come down. The writers didn't have a lack of attention to detail, a lack of a perimeter is what helped to bring the fence down, which is what they needed. I don't see how that's lazy writing. Remember, this isn't a realistic survival show; it's a show in which zombies are shambling about and the earth is, for all intents and purposes, a dead world. I couldn't imagine anything more boring than watching a show in which the survivors are living in an impregnable castle. Is that where I'd want to live in such a situation? Of course! Is that where I want to watch these people on this tv show? Nope.

First, foremost and final this show is for entertainment purposes. Yeah, it would still come down. Agreed. But they could allow it to come down in a more creative way than just leaving it as it is. Reinforcing it in no way means making it impervious. And I wouldn't want that because I'm waiting for them to leave the prison.
However, doing some basic reinforcements just adds to the idea that the group actually wants to stop them from coming in, and are actually survival oriented. The way they have it now just makes it seem like the story is made up of contrived plot devices to drive future episodes. It doesn't have to be a survival documentary for people to put some thought and effort into reinforcing the fence. It would take only a few minutes of screen time to show some partially completed efforts to that end, and the flu story line shows why they don't have the manpower to complete it.
The lazy writing aspect comes from the fact that they chose not to have them do anything to even try to reinforce it for the simple fact that in future episodes the fence would inevitably come down. They could've paid some attention to that aspect and still had the fence come down. It would've been more realistic. Especially since they do actually try to put some realism into the show. It's meant to be realistic. They just overlook some pretty important details that would add subtle reality to it and give a more submersive experience to the show.

[sandrock74]

Yeah, umm, I agree 100% there. Never once did I say or even imply that I wanted to see that entire process play out on screen. It goes without saying that it would be boring and a waste of episode time.
Someone asked how it would even be possible, and I gave a general theory. Not an endorsement for seeing the whole thing on screen. Maybe just the result would deserve a little screen time? Maybe?

A line of dialogue or two would be all that is needed. At most, a quick A-Team like building stuff montage.

[facestabber]

HAHA Before I read Babombs most recent post I was prepared to write that Babomb doesnt want the prison to actually hold as he has clearly stated he is ready to move on.

I think the use of ammo by Rick was a horrible unilateral decision. Rick and Carl should have retreated into the sick ward locking all doors and convene the council and decide whether the ammo should be used or not. I kid I kid. Just my poor attempt at humor.

As mentioned the gate had to be fixed. The design is obviously to deter hostile vehicles. But whats the point when the rest of the fence cant stop a vehicle. I really think the inner fence should be the priority. You can work without threat from the walkers. You can work on it 24/7 if its the priority. And as Wylde said, you have an enormous amount of metal doors and other items inside that prison. And if and when the outer fence fails you kill what you need to and repair when possible.

[MinionZombie]

Apparently they wanted to dig a moat around the prison set - but they had too many potential problems with quicksand and such like around there.

Now, if you had plenty of access to copious amounts of earth, you could shore up the inner fence with a big hill, swooping around the fence line ... of course, that'd take ruddy ages to do, especially with no machinery, and you'd need to have the earth somewhat compressed to withstand the force of a shedload of walkers.

On The Talking Dead they spoke about using triangular supports between the two fences to better shore them up, but I imagine nobody in Team Prison has an engineering degree (it certainly wouldn't have occurred to me).

[Moon Knight]

Anyways....

Not sure if it was mentioned or not, but did anyone notice the scene at the end between Rick and Carl; as they are picking pea pods, the shot of Rick's revolver in the forefront before fading into the background to highlight Rick piercing open the fruit? Nice touch to echo back what Carol told him, "You can be a farmer, Rick. But you can't be just a farmer." I liked that.

[Andy]

Apparently they wanted to dig a moat around the prison set - but they had too many potential problems with quicksand and such like around there.

Now, if you had plenty of access to copious amounts of earth, you could shore up the inner fence with a big hill, swooping around the fence line ... of course, that'd take ruddy ages to do, especially with no machinery, and you'd need to have the earth somewhat compressed to withstand the force of a shedload of walkers.

On The Talking Dead they spoke about using triangular supports between the two fences to better shore them up, but I imagine nobody in Team Prison has an engineering degree (it certainly wouldn't have occurred to me).

Sure you shouldnt have comic spoilers around some of that? :p

[babomb]

On The Talking Dead they spoke about using triangular supports between the two fences to better shore them up, but I imagine nobody in Team Prison has an engineering degree (it certainly wouldn't have occurred to me). That's something I have been thinking for weeks. I didn't watch TD this week. I wasn't able to watch this weeks episode the night it aired and I don't bother to DVR TD.
I like to think about those aspects though, things like that are of major interest to me. Which is why it bothers me that they don't bother with those details. I was thinking though that it would take up too much space between the 2 fences and not allow them to move freely enough between them. Because the triangular supports would have to have enough depth to provide the strength needed. So you'd have to bury the bottom supports and make the top ones high enough for people to walk under. Which would be totally do-able and not that risky. You could build them in place, while others tend to the walkers through the fence.

You don't need an engineering degree to come up with that. Just a brainstorming session among the group.

The time to do it would've been when there weren't so many walkers though.

And the fence could still be breached. The Gov is lurking. He could take out a large part of the fence with an explosion of any kind, instead of just lurking.

[shootemindehead]

I wonder where the gov's been hiding out.

He can't have been just arsing about the woods all this time surely.

[Legion2213]

I wonder where the gov's been hiding out.

He can't have been just arsing about the woods all this time surely.

The "in next weeks episode" clips gave a few clues, but I suspect like any survivor in TWD universe, he found a bolt hole, foraged for supplies and maybe had to move on once or twice if his area got a bit "busy".

Mores the question, what happened to his goons? Didn't he have two of his enforcers left when we last saw him?

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And the fence could still be breached. The Gov is lurking. He could take out a large part of the fence with an explosion of any kind, instead of just lurking.

Explosives may be hard to come by, the guy has been on the move remember (or certainly not cosied up in his little town with plenty of supplies and kit).

[rongravy]

Mores the question, what happened to his goons? Didn't he have two of his enforcers left when we last saw him?

Maybe he ate them...

[Ragnarr]

That's something I have been thinking for weeks. I didn't watch TD this week. I wasn't able to watch this weeks episode the night it aired and I don't bother to DVR TD.
I like to think about those aspects though, things like that are of major interest to me. Which is why it bothers me that they don't bother with those details. I was thinking though that it would take up too much space between the 2 fences and not allow them to move freely enough between them. Because the triangular supports would have to have enough depth to provide the strength needed. So you'd have to bury the bottom supports and make the top ones high enough for people to walk under. Which would be totally do-able and not that risky. You could build them in place, while others tend to the walkers through the fence.

You don't need an engineering degree to come up with that. Just a brainstorming session among the group.

The time to do it would've been when there weren't so many walkers though.

And the fence could still be breached. The Gov is lurking. He could take out a large part of the fence with an explosion of any kind, instead of just lurking.

I actually posted on this elsewhere more than a week ago and thought it cool when they mentioned the subject on Talking Dead. I think the guy from Mythbusters might be off a bit with his triangular supports being "best" as doing so would make it difficult for the living to move lengthwise between the fences. What I suggested in my post was that the supports run straight back from the tops of the outer fence posts to the tops of the inner fence posts. In effect, it should double the resistance of the out posts I'd think without getting in the way of those moving between the fences.

[Wyldwraith]

I'm standing pat on the "Piling junk against the inside of the fence" plan. Prior to the flu outbreak they could simply have had the then-current Cold Crews re-tasked to move the junk into place. Given their experiences with the overnight surges in Walker #'s at the fence for at least a month, even a dimwit could figure out that the Cold Crews were an inefficient stopgap measure at BEST. There's simply no good in-story reason they couldn't come up with something better than low-angled wooden struts as reinforcement for the fence, AND no good out-of-story logistics issue preventing a more intelligent use of readily available resources to reinforce the fence.

As for the Walker-feeder and the Governor, who needs explosives to breach the fence? A simple pair of wirecutters or a hand-held acetylene torch would make short work of the fence. Which, again, assumes the Governer doesn't simply stroll up to one of their wired-shut breaches in the fence and prop it wide open. I don't think a credible argument can be made that the fence STILL could've come down to serve the story they wanted to tell, WITHOUT sacrificing realism by simple doing a LITTLE more set-work. They already had to get and move around piles of freshly cut logs, so an equivalent effort could've easily implemented smarter reinforcement of the fence that wouldn't take an engineering degree. The big threat they were dealing with fence-wise prior to it actually coming down was the inward, top-down bulge in the fence as the Walkers continued to relentlessly press forward. Putting some substantial objects up against the fence that would indefinitely do the job Rick was momentarily doing by physically pushing against the fence from the inside seems like it would've been the most common sense thing in the world.

An argument against fence-reinforcement that's been made is that once everyone was sick they just didnt have the manpower and ran out of time. To retort: Rick was making the time to chop logs for fence-supports, a job he agreed he couldn't do alone when Maggie said as much. Junk-piling doesn't require the time-expenditure to chop the logs to size, or for that matter doesn't require moving the raw logs to where he was chopping them, before moving them AGAIN into position at the fence. Junk piling would actually have been far less time and exertion-intensive than the ill-fated "log plan"...since doing it the way they chose to actually runs counter-intuitively.

Just my .02, your mileage may vary.

[shootemindehead]

Mores the question, what happened to his goons? Didn't he have two of his enforcers left when we last saw him?

They're in his new fish tank.

[MinionZombie]

Sure you shouldnt have comic spoilers around some of that? :p

Notice that I wasn't specifically referencing anything and was talking exclusively about the TV show prison.

Shhhhh....


The "in next weeks episode" clips gave a few clues, but I suspect like any survivor in TWD universe, he found a bolt hole, foraged for supplies and maybe had to move on once or twice if his area got a bit "busy".

Mores the question, what happened to his goons? Didn't he have two of his enforcers left when we last saw him?

Talking Dead Preview Scene of 4x06/AMC's 4x06 YouTube Clip:
It showed TG sat by a fire with the truck they drove off in in the background, and between him and it were three tents. In the slightly longer version of that scene that AMC put up on their YoUTube page we see Martinez turn up and shoot a walker ... no sign of Shumpert yet, but the three tents does suggest they're both okay ... admittedly that scene does take place the night of the failed attack on the prison in 3x16 (so it seems) ... unless The Governor got rid of Shumpert so he could use the third tent as a walk-in cupboard to select tomorrow's attire for the psychotic gentlemen. :D

[Legion2213]

Notice that I wasn't specifically referencing anything and was talking exclusively about the TV show prison.

Shhhhh....



Talking Dead Preview Scene of 4x06/AMC's 4x06 YouTube Clip:
It showed TG sat by a fire with the truck they drove off in in the background, and between him and it were three tents. In the slightly longer version of that scene that AMC put up on their YoUTube page we see Martinez turn up and shoot a walker ... no sign of Shumpert yet, but the three tents does suggest they're both okay ... admittedly that scene does take place the night of the failed attack on the prison in 3x16 (so it seems) ... unless The Governor got rid of Shumpert so he could use the third tent as a walk-in cupboard to select tomorrow's attire for the psychotic gentlemen. :D

Hmm, I was considering that he might have "Otis-ed" them at some point...Shane style! :D

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They're in his new fish tank.

Some hobbies die hard! :D

Oh, and I shit you guys not...guy in Asda today, WITH A FUCKING EYE PATCH!!! I almost screamed "OMFG, it's the governor" in a damp-panted fangirl kind of way...but then considered the guy may not appreciate my comments as he may have genuinely lost and eye recently...but still, fuck yeah! :cool:

[babomb]

The "in next weeks episode" clips gave a few clues, but I suspect like any survivor in TWD universe, he found a bolt hole, foraged for supplies and maybe had to move on once or twice if his area got a bit "busy".

Mores the question, what happened to his goons? Didn't he have two of his enforcers left when we last saw him?

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Explosives may be hard to come by, the guy has been on the move remember (or certainly not cosied up in his little town with plenty of supplies and kit). He's been foraging to stay alive. Some shotgun shells and a length of pipe could be used to create a crude explosive device. Not to mention some simple substances that can be had from a drug store, that looters would never bother to take, can be combined to make basic black powder.
He's a resourceful guy, having a leftover grenade from that massive arsenal requires no real suspension of disbelief.

It doesn't even need to be an explosive. Maybe some bolt cutters and live bait(like rats) could create the needed breach.

[Moon Knight]

He's been foraging to stay alive. Some shotgun shells and a length of pipe could be used to create a crude explosive device. Not to mention some simple substances that can be had from a drug store, that looters would never bother to take, can be combined to make basic black powder.
He's a resourceful guy, having a leftover grenade from that massive arsenal requires no real suspension of disbelief.

It doesn't even need to be an explosive. Maybe some bolt cutters and live bait(like rats) could create the needed breach.

I can defiantly see that. He could even pick off the survivors one by one if he wanted too; kind like poor Axel. Combined with live bait, cutting the fences, polluting water supplies, ect; he could do some real damage and cause them to live in further fear.

[sandrock74]

Just a wild thought here.....what if the Governor shows up at the prison gate, hands in the air, asking to become one of their group?

You know, the complete opposite of what we're all expecting.

[AcesandEights]

Just a wild thought here.....what if the Governor shows up at the prison gate, hands in the air, asking to become one of their group?

You know, the complete opposite of what we're all expecting.

I expect he'd be shot...but (in TVLand) the Governor would expect that as well and would probably have something juicy to say that would make some people (again, this being TVLand) inevitably think twice.

[sandrock74]

I expect he'd be shot...but (in TVLand) the Governor would expect that as well and would probably have something juicy to say that would make some people (again, this being TVLand) inevitably think twice.

If anything, I'd expect them to toss him in a cell (it IS a jail, after all) while they figure out what to do with him. While this goes on, BANG!, new threat from some other unexpected source.

Again, I'm just thinking out of the box. It seems unlikely that the Governor could have another armed mob as his disposal.

[facestabber]

If anything, I'd expect them to toss him in a cell (it IS a jail, after all) while they figure out what to do with him. While this goes on, BANG!, new threat from some other unexpected source.

Again, I'm just thinking out of the box. It seems unlikely that the Governor could have another armed mob as his disposal.

I'm not sure anyone could hold back Michonne from exacting her revenge. Is it true the next episode is titled "live bait"? If so that doesn't sound good for team prison.

[Moon Knight]

I'm not sure anyone could hold back Michonne from exacting her revenge. Is it true the next episode is titled "live bait"? If so that doesn't sound good for team prison.

Yeah it is.

[zombieparanoia]

Just a wild thought here.....what if the Governor shows up at the prison gate, hands in the air, asking to become one of their group?

You know, the complete opposite of what we're all expecting.

Rick would be morally conflicted about it but then make the unilateral decision to let him in with some kind of a "We have to be willing to give people a second chance" speech while completely ignoring the whole woodbury scenario and carol exile.

[babomb]

Rick would be morally conflicted about it but then make the unilateral decision to let him in with some kind of a "We have to be willing to give people a second chance" speech while completely ignoring the whole woodbury scenario and carol exile.:D:D Sounds about right...

[Legion2213]

Or he could take one look at old one-eye, draw that sexy .357 Python of his and discharge it into his face a point-blank range (not a euphemism). :D

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I'm not sure anyone could hold back Michonne from exacting her revenge. Is it true the next episode is titled "live bait"? If so that doesn't sound good for team prison.

Probably just Lizzie dangling a kid over the fence for her new zombie pal "Timmy" or something.

[AcesandEights]

Or he could take one look at old one-eye, draw that sexy .357 Python of his and discharge it into his face a point-blank range (not a euphemism). :D

I want to see the Gov lose his other eye Elle Driver style! :)