More fuel on the (Iraq war) fire

[Arcades057]

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the reestablished Fulbrite program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-
100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational
squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport
aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night,
and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando
Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully
trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce
over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad
stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical
facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have
received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary
school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75
radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

&n bsp; Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in
Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million
Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are
under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38
new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20
Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all
currently operating?


Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had
a televised debate recently?

OF COURSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW . . AND I DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag
burning incidents at Abu Ghraib< /SPAN> and people throwing snowballs at the
presidential motorcades.

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It
is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States,
thus minimizing consequential support, and it is intended to discourage
American citizens.

*** Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
***


Got that Email just a while ago and thought I'd share. Those of us who lean toward the right say quite a bit that the media is suppressing the positive news out of Iraq. Whether that suppression is because they have a fear of being wrong, or they really hate Bush so much that they will endevour to make even his victories look like defeats, or they actually do hate America which I doubt, the fact is very real. When you have a report that 500 WMDs have been found in Iraq and it does NOT make frontpage headlines, but a secret program to protect our interests that the Pentagon asked not to publish does, there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

Media: Print the truth. You are not supposed to have an agenda. You are supposed to report facts, not your VIEW of said facts. This is why the more liberal media outlets are suffering from low viewership, while the supposed Bush news network (AKA Fox) is doing better than ever.

[Exatreides]

Did you Know that since 2003. 2539 American Families have had their loved ones ripped away so Iraqi children could get their Polio shots?

[AcesandEights]

I hope this doesn't turn into a bar room brawl-style thread...

Anyway, it is annoying that a lot of the good things that have come out of the war have not been as thoroughly reported, but good news doesn't sell and bad news portents things the people need to be concerned about.

[coma]

"Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site."
I would suggest that while that may be true or parially true, the Dept
is biased and
is a propaganda machine for it's own "achievements"

For example, the iraqi army cannot support itself and is fed, clothed and armed by the U.S.
Everything I read written by GIs says that the Iraqi army, while enthusiastic, is neither properly trained nor at the forefront of Combat Operations. In a book that I am reading called "my War" by Iraq Veteran Corey Buzzell (of the former My war Blog),he states they were speciifically told to tell reporters that Iraqi soldiers were in the forefront when the exact opposite was true on his operations. He's not a liberal, or a conservative. Just a soldier who tells his story. I have read numerous stories of the same nature form many other vets.

Fox is not doing better than ever. O'Reilly, for example, has lost 25% of his viewership.

There IS a lot of bad news over there. Everyday larger numbers of Iraqis and US soldiers die. Everyone , pretty much, wants the US to succeed. Many just don't believe it is. There is good reason to doubt the machine.They have always lied, and will always lie. It is the nature of the military/Industrial .
complex. The motives for untruth is legion. The motive for truth is small.

Simply because someone is critical or reveals information that presents the govt in a negative light does not mean they "hate Bush" or "Hate America". I seem to have no probelm hearing about the "terrorists who hate our freedom", the negative stuff regarding chicanery is harder to find. And the whitleblowers usually have to suffer snide comments from the commentators.

The WMDs found were not only given to Sadaam in the 80s by Bush one, they were inactive and buriod in the sand byu the Iran border/Front since the Iraq war, I heard of that from several mainstream locations. Maybe it wasn't reported extensiely as some would like because it was exaggerted in importance by others. It is not a , uh, bombshell revelation.

The Media has an Agenda, to make money and not rock the boat. They have to report something inmportant occasionally to seem like real journalists. Like the gov has to let us talk a little to make it seem like a democracy.

Did you know that Iraqis who work at the American Embassy and in other capacaties for the US do not even tell their families that they do so, and haven't for a very long time? If anyone knows they are abducted and killed. That is not anything near stability.

It is better to know than to not know.

I don't believe the media (which imo has no resembelence to liberal) and I certainly don't believe the govt. They are full of S*** in a million different ways. They are here to serve us, not vice versa. Seemd like the only thing even close to the truth is coming from US GI writer Iraq combat vets. They are the only ones who see what's happening up close. I just wish they spent their time in Afghanistan instead of creating a mess in Iraq. But that wasn't the Soldiers call.


I just typed all this and I suddenly realized I just stepped in to the fire. ugh. It it wasn't so hot I might go do something. :i

[Eyebiter]

How long will the US commit to preserving the security of Iraq? Until the next Presidential election in 2008? 2012? 2020?

One can see certain parallels to Vietnam. The effort to turn the conduct of the war over to the Iraqi Army is very similar to the Nixon Administration policy of Vietnamization.

Nixon was elected President and began his policy of slow disengagement from the war. The goal was to gradually build up the South Vietnamese Army so that it could fight the war on its own. This policy became the cornerstone of the so-called "Nixon Doctrine". As applied to Vietnam, the doctrine was called "Vietnamization".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamization#Vietnamization

The US has invested a significant amount of capital (both human and financial) into Iraq. Are we willing to stick it out or we abandon the nation to the Islamic fundamentalists?

[dmbfanintn]

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in
January 2005 for the reestablished Fulbrite program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-
100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational
squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport
aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night,
and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando
Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully
trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce
over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad
stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical
facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have
received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary
school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq
and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75
radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

&n bsp; Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in
Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million
Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are
under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38
new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20
Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all
currently operating?


Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had
a televised debate recently?

OF COURSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW . . AND I DIDN'T KNOW!

WHY DIDN'T WE KNOW? OUR MEDIA WOULDN'T TELL US!

Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag
burning incidents at Abu Ghraib< /SPAN> and people throwing snowballs at the
presidential motorcades.

The lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves two purposes. It
is intended to undermine the world's perception of the United States,
thus minimizing consequential support, and it is intended to discourage
American citizens.

*** Above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.
***


Got that Email just a while ago and thought I'd share. Those of us who lean toward the right say quite a bit that the media is suppressing the positive news out of Iraq. Whether that suppression is because they have a fear of being wrong, or they really hate Bush so much that they will endevour to make even his victories look like defeats, or they actually do hate America which I doubt, the fact is very real. When you have a report that 500 WMDs have been found in Iraq and it does NOT make frontpage headlines, but a secret program to protect our interests that the Pentagon asked not to publish does, there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

Media: Print the truth. You are not supposed to have an agenda. You are supposed to report facts, not your VIEW of said facts. This is why the more liberal media outlets are suffering from low viewership, while the supposed Bush news network (AKA Fox) is doing better than ever.

I ain't EVEN gonna get into this one!!!

[coma]

"Instead of reflecting our love for our country,"
whose love, ours or the 41% of Iraqis who think it;s OK to kill Americans
Or the 87% of Iraqis who think The US should leave now?
That's their opinion not mine.

If you love your counrty, you tell the truth.
No one is ever served by a beautiful lie.
I, for one, don't think corporate sontrolling National intersests has anything to do with "America" as an idea.

[Arcades057]

The truth is out there. And unfortunately the truth in this regard is one side will never believe and credit the other. What sides are there? There are three as I see them.

1) The pro-war people. Not to say these people are gung-ho about this war, not to say they even agree with it, but they know that the war is a necessary evil. They support the fact that we're there, while not always agreeing with the reasons behind it. These people understand the difference behind a war such as this and, say, a police action like Vietnam or a REAL war like WWII. They take every message from the media that we are really the badguys with a grain of salt, remembering the elections of '00 and '04 and seeing the reasons behind all the negative press coverage. These people want to prosecute the terrorists of the world in the most effective court in history: The battlefield. As the death toll for the enemy rises, they don't bat an eye; as reports come in daily of another dead coalition soldier they sigh, wishing it were not so, but understanding that war has a cost. Freedom has a cost that is billed by the old, paid by the young, and benefits the unborn.

2) The anti-war people. Not all of these people are against the war because of morals. Some of them are against Bush and everything related to him. Because of this, and because the media tends to focus on the craziest among them in positive terms, the whole movement comes out looking kookish. They march, they protest, they make press everywhere. To these people, there is no difference between Iraq and Vietnam; any atempt to explain this to them and they will fall back on their morals. Many of this group would not support a war even if their own country were invaded. These are the people who would not have supported the second world war or anything at all that might result in the death of someone. They believe that the only way to prosecute this war is to literally prosecute thousands of terrorists in court. They believe that the war is either not being fought correctly, the war was not legal, or that Saddam never deserved to be outted. Regardless, as the situation changes the most fervent among these people will stick to their view, never faltering, even when WMDs are found, rape-rooms uncovered, bloody plastic shredders finally turned off, and mass graves uncovered.

3) The terrorists. They don't care which side we're on, they want to kill us. Period. Any one of you, pro-war or against it, would meet the same fate as Nick Berg or those two dead soldiers if they laid hold of you. They hate us. They hate the fact that our women can short skirts and that we allow Jews to live among us. They hate everything about us, while envying it at the same time. They are taught to hate from an early age, and they do so. They know, just as General Giap did during Vietnam, that they cannot defeat us on the battlefield: But the second group, aided by the media, can. Every time they expend forty men to kill one of ours, they call it a victory, knowing the press will show photos of crying Iraqis whose terrorist family members have been killed. If left alone they will eventually win this war, aided by the second group. Both groups will celebrate this fact... until the terrorists plan and execute another 9/11, or another English subway bombing. Then the first group will step forward, to the jeers and catcalls of the second, whose only fault is not remembering the past.

That's how I see it. When someone talks like exa or other fervent antiwar people, I don't hate you guys, I just get saddened by the fact that you and I both see the same thing, but get a different conclusion. I admit the times I've been wrong on subjects. Maybe we went into Iraq without being totally ready. Maybe we should've planned for the terrorist war that we're now facing. We didn't. Sitting back and screeching "WE WERE RIGHT, SEE!" doesn't help anyone. Until someone can come forward with a better plan for the Iraq war besides running like cowards or never going in the first place, we are there. Let's fight to win.

[coma]

Thre are some people who are anti war period. There were comsientious (spell) objectors in WW2, even. Some are against Afganastan even. But what I see Most is Anti Iraq (unneccasary, opportunist) and pro Afgahn war (but badly managed).
sure there are people who just hate Bush for being him. But I tend to believe that it's his policies and motivations that people actually hate. And of those of his whole family.
As someone who knows someone who died in 9/11, I find this whole affair personally offensive. Ignoring the real war to start some bloodbath that he was going to invade no matter what happened, while flat out lying in trying to make a connection between 9/11 and Saddam. It's a betrayal, and I think, utterly unamerican
Richard Clarke said he was told to make the connection between Sadaam and WTC because Iraq had "Better targets".
What is that?

Winning is better than losing, but I am not convinced The administration wants to win, or they would change up the tactics. I would rather be wring and believe they are honest and uncorruptable. But they are not.

[Arcades057]

I'll say that we should've gone to Iraq earlier, rather than later. Bush senior should've gone back after Saddam first broke the cease fire. He didn't. Bush did. The son correcting the mistakes of the father. Is it right? No, maybe not; but it would've had to be done eventually. Now it's done, and it's up to us to mess this thing up or fix it. Either we do, or our kids and grandkids will.

As for the terrorist connections, they are there. Zarqawi was recovering in a Baghdad hospital; Saddam sent millions to Palestinian families of terrorists in Israel; Islamic Jihad had camps in Iraq; other terrorist groups had safe houses there. If that's not enough connection, I don't know what is.

[Exatreides]

I'll say that we should've gone to Iraq earlier, rather than later. Bush senior should've gone back after Saddam first broke the cease fire. He didn't. Bush did. The son correcting the mistakes of the father. Is it right? No, maybe not; but it would've had to be done eventually. Now it's done, and it's up to us to mess this thing up or fix it. Either we do, or our kids and grandkids will.

As for the terrorist connections, they are there. Zarqawi was recovering in a Baghdad hospital; Saddam sent millions to Palestinian families of terrorists in Israel; Islamic Jihad had camps in Iraq; other terrorist groups had safe houses there. If that's not enough connection, I don't know what is.

I have to say that taking out Saddam in 91 would have been a bad idea, as we would have been in reletivly the same situation as we are now, but with less tech then we have now. I really don't know how much the colition would have helped back then, I mean christ look how much they have helped now. (Some but the majority of the fighting is done by the United States military)

Personally I think that we should have waited and gone after Iran, the Weapons of Mass Destruction point is moot at most. Israel destroyed Iraq's nuke reactor in (83'?), a act that probebly saved countless American lives in the first gulf war. The only weapons of mass destruction Iraq had were used against Iran during the 80's. Weapons mind you that our goverment gave to them.

(we bounced back and fourth between liking and hating the Iraqi's in the 80's)

Hell, the Iraqi's didn't even have proper tank shells in the first gulf war, they were homemade and not soviet built. Which led to alot of problems in fighting coilition armor.

I'm not going to go HA! we were right, because as you already stated. We were, and I agree that pulling out of Iraq right now would be a very bad idea. However I don't agree with U.S troops and the torture(Of course this depends on your defenition of tortue). We don't need a Mai Lai(think thats right spelling) in Iraq.

While our forces are sitting in Iraq, trying to survive in the **** storm that the nation has become.

Iran is building a nuke.

Somalia is turning into a terrorist cess pool.

Terrorists are hitting in India and other parts of the world

North Korea is shooting off missles like it's the fourth of July.

Just a note Arc, I plan on joining the National Guard ( go up to Meps in Chicago for processing, got a 83 on the ASVAB) Was going to be a 91W. Thats a medic. Will ship off to basic next summer after I graduate highschool, and our unit rotates to Iraq in November I think. So wish me luck.

[MapMan]

I have to say that taking out Saddam in 91 would have been a bad idea, as we would have been in reletivly the same situation as we are now, but with less tech then we have now. I really don't know how much the colition would have helped back then

(we bounced back and fourth between liking and hating the Iraqi's in the 80's)

Hell, the Iraqi's didn't even have proper tank shells in the first gulf war, they were homemade and not soviet built. Which led to alot of problems in fighting coilition armor.

While our forces are sitting in Iraq, trying to survive in the **** storm that the nation has become.

Iran is building a nuke.

Somalia is turning into a terrorist cess pool.

Terrorists are hitting in India and other parts of the world

North Korea is shooting off missles like it's the fourth of July.

I respect the fact the you are going to join the Nasty Guard. I was in Desert Storm along with 500,000 thousand others. Thats about 370,000 more than currently deployed. If we were given the green light in 91 Saddam would have been gone very easily. I was 90 miles south of Baghdad with little resistance in the way. Technology does not win wars. It is what we call a combat multiplier. Boots on the ground wins wars. Actually no one really wins in a war.

I pulled American ammo crates out of Iraqi bunkers that were sold to Jordan and somehow eneded up in that bunker.....2 months after purchase. The T55 and T72 tanks I encountered had shells that seemed like they came out of the gun tube pretty damn well. Well enough to kill you.

Somalia has been a cesspool since the late 80's.

[coma]

Just a note Arc, I plan on joining the National Guard ( go up to Meps in Chicago for processing, got a 83 on the ASVAB) Was going to be a 91W. Thats a medic. Will ship off to basic next summer after I graduate highschool, and our unit rotates to Iraq in November I think. So wish me luck.

Keep your head down and Best of Luck, bro. A question, do Medics carry a weapon?

"rocking the boat is the only way they make money"
I thought eggs are good/bad/good/bad was the way they make money. And killer bees and Child Molesters and how to not be fat,


"The son correcting the mistakes of the father."
Well, the we're restoring democracy to a , monarch, in Kuwait was the reason and its just crap. They don't care about freedom. At least 100 years ago they would just be up front about the imperialism. as in "We will only have to kill about 3000 filipinos to take the rubber and pineapple" Thats a really bad paraphrase, but I believe it was teddy roosevelt who said that.

Besides, it's the Saudis who prbably are the real threat in that region. But hy own a huge percentage of the US. so I guess were stuck with em

[Exatreides]

Combat medic's can carry defense weapons like pistols, rifles,carbines, and sub machine guns. If they pick up a gernade launcher, machine gun, or sniper rifle you loose your status as a non combative under the geneva convention.

[AcesandEights]

I plan on joining the National Guard ( go up to Meps in Chicago for processing, got a 83 on the ASVAB) Was going to be a 91W. Thats a medic. Will ship off to basic next summer after I graduate highschool, and our unit rotates to Iraq in November I think. So wish me luck.

****. I'll wish you luck, and much safety for you and your squad(?) mates.

[Publius]

Everything I read written by GIs says that the Iraqi army, while enthusiastic, is neither properly trained nor at the forefront of Combat Operations. In a book that I am reading called "my War" by Iraq Veteran Corey Buzzell (of the former My war Blog),he states they were speciifically told to tell reporters that Iraqi soldiers were in the forefront when the exact opposite was true on his operations. He's not a liberal, or a conservative. Just a soldier who tells his story. I have read numerous stories of the same nature form many other vets.

One of the reasons you see wildly varying estimates of the competence of the Iraqi military is that it depends on who the person you're listening to is comparing them to. A lot of the junior guys who go over there and work with the Iraqis think, "hey, these guys kinda suck compared to us." Of course! No third world army, and few first world armies, can compare to the U.S. Army. But if you compare them to their peers - other third world developing militaries - the Iraqis are coming along quite well.


There IS a lot of bad news over there. Everyday larger numbers of Iraqis and US soldiers die.

I don't know what you mean by "larger numbers" every day. Average monthly casualties for the last six months have been lower than average casualties for the previous six months, and lower than the average for the past two years as a whole.



The WMDs found were not only given to Sadaam in the 80s by Bush one

They were not. US companies did sell Iraq some of the *precursor* chemicals they used to make chemical weapons. France and Germany sold them more.


Seemd like the only thing even close to the truth is coming from US GI writer Iraq combat vets. They are the only ones who see what's happening up close.

True. And the guys up close are generally a lot more optimistic about what's going on in Iraq than the media is. Look at blogs like Blackfive or Ace of Spades, you'll find a lot of news from the front lines there.

[Marie]

Just a note Arc, I plan on joining the National Guard ( go up to Meps in Chicago for processing, got a 83 on the ASVAB) Was going to be a 91W. Thats a medic. Will ship off to basic next summer after I graduate highschool, and our unit rotates to Iraq in November I think. So wish me luck.

Good Luck. You'll be in my prayers. Come back to us.

M_

[coma]

One of the reasons you see wildly varying estimates of the competence of the Iraqi military is that it depends on who the person you're listening to is comparing them to. A lot of the junior guys who go over there and work with the Iraqis think, "hey, these guys kinda suck compared to us." Of course! No third world army, and few first world armies, can compare to the U.S. Army. But if you compare them to their peers - other third world developing militaries - the Iraqis are coming along quite well.
Good point. But they are being trained and equipt by US forces. You would think they would be farther along. But I am no military expert. History is more of my forte.



I don't know what you mean by "larger numbers" every day. Average monthly casualties for the last six months have been lower than average casualties for the previous six months, and lower than the average for the past two years as a whole.

Another good point. I looked up US combat deaths in Iraq and it has been fluctuating betwwen 50 and 80 or so for a long time, usually arond 60+ a month. As far as Iraqi deaths I was thinking more of the every other day hearing "32 dead from car bomb, Bus with 40 shiities executed, etc". Its hard to find solid numbers but it seems like it's getting pretty constant.

[Graebel]

If you are so pro-war, Arcades....why haven't you enlisted? God knows quotas are hard enough to meet. And I'm a firm believer in putting your money where your mouth is.

And before you label me as a liberal (which I am kinda - I'm more Libertarian than anything) I'll tell you that I do not dislike Bush just for ****s and giggles. Any man who can run on a platform of "I don't make mistakes." ranks right up there with glorified a$$hole. Everybody makes mistakes even presidents.

And secondly, as an Arabic linguist before 9-11, nobody understand why we were going into Iraq. Not even the Marines I was stationed with. Afghanistan was clear cut, Iraq, not so much.

I've had a good friend spend the majority of the last five years getting shot at in an artillery division, not complaining, not arguing, but while he was optimistic back then....he no longer thinks that way.

[dmbfanintn]

If you are so pro-war, Arcades....why haven't you enlisted? God knows quotas are hard enough to meet. And I'm a firm believer in putting your money where your mouth is..

Well there it is, the ultimate question for the pro-death and destruction crowd. Push push push for the war, but would NEVER enlist!!


And before you label me as a liberal (which I am kinda - I'm more Libertarian than anything) I'll tell you that I do not dislike Bush just for ****s and giggles. Any man who can run on a platform of "I don't make mistakes." ranks right up there with glorified a$$hole. Everybody makes mistakes even presidents.

There you go! Remember the presidental debates between Bush and Kerry? You know, the ones where Kerry made Chimpy McFlightsuit look like the total idiot that he is, the same ones the Bushy had to have Daddy Rove telling him what to say through the earpiece?????

Well during those debates and the following town hall meetings I remember several people TRYING to get Bush to admit to ANY mistake, no matter how miniscule, and he would NEVER admit to ANY mistakes. I remember his answer to the following question:

Mr President, please give us an example of one of your biggest mistakes, what you learned from it. You know what this arrogant azzhole's answer was???

The biggest mistake I ever made was trading Sammy Sosa to the Cubs :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Sir, I disagree!!!!

People were basically begging the man to admit to just one mistake and he would not!

That is one of the main reasons why we are in the quagmire that we ARE in, in Iraq, because Chimpy McFlightsuit and his merry band of idiots believe that they do no wrong!!!

DOWN WITH KING GEORGE AND HIS OIL WAR BASED ON LIES.

And for the record, I spent 8 years inthe Army and fought in Gulf 1 and the Guantanamo Refugee crisis in 94, so I can say whatever the phuck I want about the war and this admin.

How many other on here supporting this idiotic bullsheet can say they have served this country and fought for it???

Can you Arcades???? You know I love ya brotha, but you also know I think your ideals are twisted.

MapMan, I know you were there, thank you sir!!!!

[Arcades057]

*sigh* Graebel, I already answered this question many times here, but I'll do so again. 3 felonies prohibit me from joining. A drug charge, a weapons charge, and an assault charge (also 2 more felonious assaults as a minor, which still affect me now, for some odd reason).

As I stated in the past, and as I do so again, to offer to someone in favor of the war and the mission "you like it so much, why don't you join" is like saying to a democrat "you like helping the needy so much, why don't you give all of your money to them." Neither point makes any sense, but it's a low way to discredit someone with an opinion that varies from the lockstep "Iraq is a quagmire, Bush is evil."

I envy people who can go over there. Would I go now? Likely not, even if possible. The way the war is being fought is a surefire way to grind our people down eventually. The terrorists now have greater protection than our own troops. Great. Somewhere I really want to be. And let's not blame that on Bush; that is purely the fault of our liberal members of Congress and the Supreme Court.

[Graebel]

I envy people who can go over there. Would I go now? Likely not, even if possible. The way the war is being fought is a surefire way to grind our people down eventually. The terrorists now have greater protection than our own troops.

It just disturbs me that you think that way. I have spent entirely too much time in the Orthopedics ward at Walter Reed. Yes, those men and women volunteered. However they didn't volunteer to have their faces blown away. To suffer traumatic brain injury, to have their lives completely destroyed.

We have made those people hate us much more than they ever did before. Gitmo is another story entirely and I won't ever go there. Iraq has changed thousands of American soldiers, marines, seamen and airmen's lives. And those guys get top of the line medical care. How bout the thousands of Iraqis who get blown up?

I just think its hard to follow your philosophy while its someone else's job to shoulder the pain and the burden of seeing it come true. (And while I haven't volunteered with the homeless, I have done literacy programs and worked with special kids to make them more functional)

I would have gone to Iraq if I had still been in, and I would have done my job. But to ignore the suffering and call that 'liberal slant' is callous. Come to Walter Reed with me. There's no liberal slant in talking to a guy who has no lips, no nose, no ears and is 75% blind from an IED. His life will never be the same again.

But that's my opinion. You are entitled to yours as well.

[Arcades057]

I agree with your point, Graebel. War is a horrible thing. In war people die, they get mutilated, they lose friends, they become monsters. Our volunteer force knows this before they sign up. They go willingly. Not all of them want to be there, true, but they knew it was possible to go to war. On the third time I tried joining the army I asked to take someone's place who was slated to go; I told them I'd leave tomorrow. Let me go so some guy with a family can stay. Apparently all the news about them not meeting quotas was untrue.

To not support the actions "over there" because people can get hurt is a little strange. There have been more deaths over here on the road in a year than during the entire Iraq war; you support people's right to drive, no? Likely you do so yourself. There have been more American deaths to violence here in the US during the same amount of time as the Iraq war. Hell, I'd be willing to bet there've been more abortions in this year than American deaths during both the Iraq and Afghanistan war, and 9/11 combined.

Again I'm not arguing the point, only showing you that in the great scheme of things there are a lot more deaths happening not related to the war. People can get wounded, some terribly so. They can get wounded here too, some terribly so. I've seen a guy without a face before; he was a buddy that I scraped up off the road after a motorcycle accident. He was angry that it had happened, too. Didn't mean I felt that people should not be allowed to drive motorcycles, or that Jeb Bush was a war-criminal for not forcing people to wear helmets; just meant that dude's luck ran out.

And of all the injured vets I've seen on TV and read about in the press (even the anti-anything-doing-with-Bush Sun Sentinel) they all say the same thing: I want to go back to my friends "over there."

[Neil]

http://www.counterpunch.org/cox10132005.html

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

[AcesandEights]

Nice Snopes link. Staus undetermined...


There is a valid point underlying the theme of these messages, that the media tends to report (and the public tends to follow) stories having to do with disaster, tragedy and misfortune far more than stories about good deeds and good works. That has always been the nature of news reporting, however; it's not a new development fostered by the "Bush-hating media." (As one editorial writer put it in a commentary on this phenomenon, "Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn.")

I think that sums up, both valid sides of the argument, as far as I'm concerned.

[dmbfanintn]

I agree with your point, Graebel. War is a horrible thing. In war people die, they get mutilated, they lose friends, they become monsters. Our volunteer force knows this before they sign up. They go willingly. Not all of them want to be there, true, but they knew it was possible to go to war. On the third time I tried joining the army I asked to take someone's place who was slated to go; I told them I'd leave tomorrow. Let me go so some guy with a family can stay. Apparently all the news about them not meeting quotas was untrue.

To not support the actions "over there" because people can get hurt is a little strange. There have been more deaths over here on the road in a year than during the entire Iraq war; you support people's right to drive, no? Likely you do so yourself. There have been more American deaths to violence here in the US during the same amount of time as the Iraq war. Hell, I'd be willing to bet there've been more abortions in this year than American deaths during both the Iraq and Afghanistan war, and 9/11 combined.

Again I'm not arguing the point, only showing you that in the great scheme of things there are a lot more deaths happening not related to the war. People can get wounded, some terribly so. They can get wounded here too, some terribly so. I've seen a guy without a face before; he was a buddy that I scraped up off the road after a motorcycle accident. He was angry that it had happened, too. Didn't mean I felt that people should not be allowed to drive motorcycles, or that Jeb Bush was a war-criminal for not forcing people to wear helmets; just meant that dude's luck ran out.

And of all the injured vets I've seen on TV and read about in the press (even the anti-anything-doing-with-Bush Sun Sentinel) they all say the same thing: I want to go back to my friends "over there."

Arcades, it sounds as though when you are talking "number of deaths" that you are only referring to American GI deaths. Is that the case???

Because I sure would like to know which road in this country has had enough fatal accidents on it to have caused over 50,000 traffic fatalities???? Please tell me which road that is.

Please point out to me the abortion clinic that performs 50,000 abortions a year????????

THERE ARE INNOCENT IRAQI CIVILIANS BEING RAPED MAIMED AND MURDERED BY OUR SOLDIERS!!!!!!!!

And believe me, it pains me a whole lot more than most of you to see and read this. Those are my brothers in arms over there.

And let me tell you something, if you think our "all volunteer force" goes into a place like Iraq willingly, you are a fool!!!! These are 18 and 19 year old kids, mostly from poor backgrounds who are looking for a way to pay for college.

NO ONE, save a very few violence freaks, goes into the military thinking they are ACTUALLY going to go to war. Those boys are scared!!!!!

And the biggest killer to the whole argument once again falls back to the fact the we shouldn't even be in Iraq in the first place. I agree that since we have already done what we done, then the job has to be finished and the cleaning completed, but who and when will accountability be held for the phuck up of going in in the first place???? Never, and Noone!!!

Graebels point of our young guys coming back maimed and lives changed forever hits even harder when you believe that it happened to them over bullsheet and lies!!!!!

I'm done with this discussion, I am gettin gupset again. I don't have many crying spells in front of the evening news anymore, but they used to be quite frequent and it's discussions like this that get me there!!!!:( :(

[p2501]

Great links Neily!

[coma]

*sigh* Graebel, I already answered this question many times here, but I'll do so again. 3 felonies prohibit me from joining. A drug charge, a weapons charge, and an assault charge (also 2 more felonious assaults as a minor, which still affect me now, for some odd reason).


I would like to point out, the "soft on crime" liberals are the only reason your not doing life (well, that, and maybe some good attorneys). Thats 5 felonies. If you lived in CA you'd be doing life under 3 strikes. And your juveinle (spelling) felonys would be adult felonys under most right wing laws. I think it's a miracle, no matter who makes the laws, that your not posting from prison.
Stay out of trouble! (though I'm sure your Mom tells you that all the time, mine did)

"that is purely the fault of our liberal members of Congress and the Supreme Court"
Dude, the Supreme court is a right wing court and liberals are a minority in congress. When was the last time a liberal anything got through congress? A really long time ago.all 3 branches of The Govt are Republican controlled with the Rightists having the sway over the party. Amazing how you can blame the out of power opposition party for the faults of the controlling party.