TWD 4x08 "Too Far Gone" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

The mid-season finale! How time flies!

Please keep all talk of episode 4x08 "Too Far Gone" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" (http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/faq.php?faq=comm_item#faq_spoilersyoutube) - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


The Walking Dead Season 4, Episode 8 – “Too Far Gone” - Just when everything started to calm down at the prison, Rick and his group now face imminent danger and destruction. This time, they might not win. Written by: Seth Hoffman Directed by: Ernest Dickerson

[Geordie9]

looking forward to this like!!

[kidgloves]

Really nervous for Hershel tonight.

Death list : Slightly influenced by the comic
Hershel
Gov
Sasha
Judith
Beth

[Moon Knight]

Tonight, we say bye to some old friends. Highy anticipating; yet, rather worried.

[facestabber]

Tonight, we say bye to some old friends. Highy anticipating; yet, rather worried.

Yea I'm not really excited about tonight because of the possible losses. Gonna be on edge of seat.

- - - Updated - - -

Fuck you governor. Damnit!!! Damn damn damn

[Cykotic]

If this is what the mid season finale is like, what the frack have they planned for the season finale?

Oh yeah by the way, If you intend on trying to take over a place, DON'T FRACKING BLOW IT UP WITH A TANK!!!

and Judith.... yeah I know thats what happens in the comics, but still... to see it happen in the series is messed up.

I think this picture sums it up for many people on Twitter

1294

[AcesandEights]

That was pretty badass! We definitely got more resolution than I had suspected.

A few cheesy moments, but the cool and the quality outshone those, I thought.

- - - Updated - - -



and Judith..


Meh. We know Maggie went for Judith and we have no reason to believe she didn't get to her.

[MoonSylver]

:stunned:

Ok, having read the comic...

Everything more or less unfolded the way it did in the comic

...but still... :stunned:

[JonOfTheShred]

I knew Hershel was taking T's place. Definitely a number of unexpected twists though. Daryl blowing up the tank was pretty badass. And it was great seeing Lizzie save Tyrese, although I'm almost certain now that she killed the people and Carol took the fall for her. Governor was taking Rick DOWN for a minute there, it got pretty bleak for a second. Also did NOT think his 'daughter' was gonna get taken out, and by a zombie that almost felt like an homage to Lucio Fulcis Zombi.

[babomb]

I called it a couple weeks ago that the Gov was gonna be killed by one of his "new family".

So glad the prison is gone!!!!

[snowwarrior]

I knew Hershel was taking T's place. Definitely a number of unexpected twists though. Daryl blowing up the tank was pretty badass. And it was great seeing Lizzie save Tyrese, although I'm almost certain now that she killed the people and Carol took the fall for her. Governor was taking Rick DOWN for a minute there, it got pretty bleak for a second. Also did NOT think his 'daughter' was gonna get taken out, and by a zombie that almost felt like an homage to Lucio Fulcis Zombi.
Also notice the homage to NOTLD with "daughter" Meghan' hair band a la Barbra? Fulci vs. Romero!

[Harleydude666]

I'm calling it now, Michonne has baby Judith

[Moon Knight]

Great episode. Rick's speech to the Governor was masterful. The smile on Hershel's face once Rick delivered those emotional lines was heartbreaking just knowing what was about to happen to him. Goodbye, Hershel; great character and amazing actor.

[facestabber]

Absolutely gutted about the loss of Hershel. He made a heck of a difference in this world and was brilliantly played by Scott Wilson. Many good memories from his story starting with his first line, "Was he bit". And once again Loren Cohen's reaction was so damn good. I want more Maggie. I love that girl.

Daryl stepped up as a leader. I know he may not want the job but he is more than capable. He was kicking ass, blowing up tanks and his final crossbow moment was money. The tank commander dared give an expression seeking mercy after busting down our house. Good riddance. I know many wish for Daryls demise but he is a great character.

Michonne. Straight up hard core ninja. Tied up in a motor home and she's still spouting death threats. Her revenge kill appeared rather telegraphed but I sure enjoyed seeing her katana through the Gov. Im curious why she didnt finish him. Was it to let him face the walkers or was she aware it was a fatal blow and her message was sent? I cant recall where she went when she split from Rick and Carl. My only disappointment was when the Gov's alleged girlfriend shot him(And she better have actually done it, I dont want the Gov being rehabbed for another fight). Back to my disappointment, I wanted the Gov screaming and begging for mercy as the walkers devoured him. He got off way too easy.

I was thinking Glen or Maggie was gonna die when they split up. Glad theyre still with us. Maggie especially:)

The kids getting guns and saving Tyrese was epicness redefined. The first kill, great save on their part. But the SECOND!!!!! I literally said, "holy shit" when they capped that bitch in the head.

There is so much material to absorb so I'm just checking out for the night with one final thought. Season 4 has been absolutely great. Thank you's to all the writers and actors that have delivered such great story. And to the posters here that keep the story going and the entertaining back and forth, I thank you.

[Trancelikestate]

I too caught the Fulci nod. Didn't think about the headband till now that it was mentioned. Super great episode. I also was a little perplexed at Michonne's mercy. Oh well. There's no way Judith died, come on guys. :p But yeah, the Governor. What made him think they had a better chance? Tanks are hardcore but they're not indestructible bro. Especially when Daryl is on your side. Who said they wished him gone? It was slightly silly how easy the Gov's little army was brainwashed into fighting and all but hey it is a show and he is the Gov. It also occurred to me they may try to do a Gov rehab and return thing which would suck. But she was trying to talk him out of going and fighting to begin with, then he did, her daughter and many others died and everything was totally fubar so I doubt she'd be saving him and trying to help him rehab anytime soon.

[zomtom]

One of the best episodes of the series, in my opinion. I even fell off of the damned chair!! Thank God that damned Gov. is dead (and he had better BE DEAD). I had a funny feeling Hershel was on his way out. I still feel bad about that. On the plus side, it seems he may be the only one from the core group to be killed. I mean there was a lot of speculation on quite a few characters being killed. I also don't think Judith is dead. There will be a reason for that blood in the carrier. AND after seeing that rat "spread eagle" on the wall, and Tyrese going on and on about a psychopath; I will once again proclaim my theory Carol is innocent of burning Karen and whoever. I made this prediction right after that episode and when it is finally revealed I am going to be on this site gloating like the fucker I am.

[JonOfTheShred]

Also notice the homage to NOTLD with "daughter" Meghan' hair band a la Barbra? Fulci vs. Romero!

Shit, I re-watched it and caught it that time after you mentioned it. That is a pretty damn epic double homage.

I'm rereading the 3 issues that this episode are based around (#46-#48) to refresh my memory on the differences. Makes me want to reread the entire comic series from issue 1.

All Out War twice a month at this point is sweet, on that note. Two Walking Dead comics a month...they should keep up that pace.

[Legion2213]

Jesus Christ! Was that the best TWD episode ever? I can't think of a better one, I really can't.

So much gut wrenching tragedy, so much action...Ricks speech, Herschel's death, the governors death, Daryl's last zombie kill with his empty assault rifle (I shouted "YES!!!" very loudly at that point), Lizzie becoming the full on killer, Bob coming good when it counted, poor Tara losing her shit, her girlfriend rolling through our group like a tank before she got shot by Lizzie, Lilly losing her daughter...The Governor has so much blood on his hands it's unreal.

So much good stuff in this episode, I am still reeling.

I LOVE this series, for every single fault, for every groan, there are a dozen things they get right, things that make me slobber like a starving man for the next episode...

Oh, and God rest your soul Herschel...you will be missed on this show.

[kidgloves]

Michonne didn't show the Gov mercy, she left him to be eaten and/or turn like the Gov did to his enemies. Much much worse than killing him outright.

Brilliant episode. The hokey bits were all related to the last 2 episodes just to rub in what a waste of time they were.
Another here who doesn't think Judith is dead.

[Legion2213]

Further thoughts...when Lizzie said "let's go and get some guns" I thought, "oh dear, the kids will get into trouble and have to be rescued or start popping off and escalate any conflict between team prison and team governor"...I really didn't expect how it turned out!

Judith will either turn up with Michonne, or Tara (I really hope Tara got away, she is obviously a good person and I felt really sorry for her when she saw through the Governor)

The governor is one of the best villians I've ever seen on TV, David Morrisey brought real class to the character (Scott Wilson & David Morrisey are both huge losses to the show now that they are gone)

Oh, and even though the mid season finale was absolutely top drawer, mid season breaks still suck donkey balls...

- - - Updated - - -


Also did NOT think his 'daughter' was gonna get taken out, and by a zombie that almost felt like an homage to Lucio Fulcis Zombi.

Yeah, when people can pull away from a walker for more than a couple of seconds in this show, it's usually a pretty fair indicator that they will live, I expected mommy to come along just in the nick of time and cap that mud-man and generally save the day.

[MinionZombie]

HOLY. SHIT. :stunned:

That was a proper edge-of-your-seat episode. I was actually shaking with adrenaline I was so wrapped up in it. When TG got the sword through his chest I punched the air victoriously (aye, Michonne left him to die slowly ... but then Lilly had to get her revenge too ... would have been, perhaps, nice to see the bastard's head explode :elol:)

Well, I was half-expecting them to leave us on a mid-battle cliffhanger, but I'm glad they didn't.

I reckon 4x09 will be thus (according to Volume 9 of the comics):
Rick and Carl alone in the wilderness ... it was some of the best TWD I've read ... I really like the idea of an episode purely about that father/son dynamic.

As for poor little Judith ... well, there's just no way they'd show a dead baby ... they have to just suggest it ... but yeah, part of me thinks that maybe someone managed to save her ... but at the same time, such a reveal in season 4b would be a bit of a cheap shot after such a heart-wrenching scene between Rick and Carl discovering the baby seat. 3x04 was pretty goddamned rough, but blimey ... monstrous acting skills from Lincoln and Riggs! :stunned:

I knew Hershel was for-the-chop, but I still feel bad about it - such a good character and so well balanced as the wise old sage of the group ... he's the father of the group and now they're cast adrift. The CGI on his neck slice was a bit rubbish, I must say, but even still, the shock of losing Hershel was just so overwhelming ... so see the poor man crawl through the dirt and then to have TG hack his flippin' head off! Jesus Christ! :eek: I think they handled it well - not going for up close gore shots and keeping the focus on TG within the frame so we see just enough of poor old Hershel to fully understand and take a big old hit to the heart, but not so much that it feels exploitative.

When the bullets started flying you could feel so much anger and grief and everything - absolutely bonkers - well done to all involved. The acting was tip-top in this episode.

Loved it when Daryl arrow-killed that twat with a tank - I hated that character, that lousy no-good son of a bitch - screw you and your tank! I bet a few fangirls shat themselves when that walker was so close to Daryl, and I'm glad he made it - he doesn't deserve to go out in some punk-ass way - and using a skewered walker as a shield so he can toss grenades was feckin' awesome. :D

SO MUCH going on in this episode ... that Lizzie's up to no good, creepy little weirdo ... but good on her for saving Tyreese ... but yeah, when she snuffed out Tara's g/f, damn, that was cold-blooded right there!

Farewell Hershel, you shall be missed an awful lot. :(

Oh yeah - did anyone spot Clara as a walker in the crowd that flooded into the prison? Nice touch there tying season 4a together.

Aye - the rather Italian-looking walker that got Meghan ... kind of a mix between Fulci's Zombi as well as the likes of Burial Ground/The Zombie Dead ... a really cool moment.

So much cold-blooded shit going on in this episode ... when TG held dead Meghan in his arms and then just put her down without a moment's hesitation, bloody nora! This was a proper jaw dropper of an episode.

As for blowing up the prison - they only blow up a guard tower, but once it's all-out-war, then just massacre the place. It becomes a senseless slaughter driven by revenge and bloody-minded madness, and with the fences down it's useless anyway, so let's just blow the shit out of it.

Wow ... so much to digest right now ... great episode and a great close to season 4A. I can't wait to hop onto my Sky+ and re-watch all eight in a big old marathon. :hyper:

[Wyldwraith]

1) Don't believe Judith is dead. Maggie left her assault rifle with Beth, which made it clear (at least to me) that she was going all-in on rescuing Judith. Plus, as we beat into the ground after Lori's death, Walkers DON'T CARRY OFF their victims. Had a Walker scooped Judith out of that carseat, it would've at LEAST BEGAN eating her then and there, resulting in substantially more blood/gore in and around the car seat. The only other possibility I see, though the logistics seem to preclude the possibility, is Meghan's mother snatched Judith as some kind of fucked up "replacement" for her lost daughter. I don't believe it to be so for a # of reasons, just throwing it out there.

2) Given the lack of modern trauma facilities, it would be extremely unrealistic if the Governor somehow survived Michonne's sword-thrust. At the very least he has a sucking chest wound, delivered by a blade that was anything BUT sterile. Which is assuming they copped out and the enraged mother chose not to end the life of the man who promised to keep them safe, then while going against her values created the situation that caused her daughter's death. THEN, when she brokenheartedly carries the body to the Gov, he simply and rather callously shot the dead girl in the head without so much as a look of shared grief for Lily. I'm TRULY HOPING that's the end of the Governor, but I fear the writers in this case.

I too was quite surprised that Michonne didn't take his head with a follow-up blow for what he did to Herschel. For her own revenge's sake I could see her leaving him for the Walkers, but once he killed Herschel, and with HER SWORD, I would've thought Michonne would have wanted to be able to tell Maggie she did unto the Governor as the Gov did unto Maggie's father.

3) I too thought it was cool when Lizzie saved Tyreese, but I'd like you ladies and gents to recall that a # of us have been convinced all along that Lizzie killed Karen and David and Carol took the fall for it. Notice when she persuaded the other kids to go get guns she recited that statement of Carol's about them "Needing to be strong"....which I believe became the dark twisted seed that was fertilized in Lizzie's mind by her feeling it was her responsibility to keep her late father from reanimating and being unable to do it. (Which is not to say Lizzie wasn't already a very psychologically unstable child, what with her weird fixation on Walkers and such....but I believe the incident of her father's death was the "Trigger/Stresser" that blasted the cracks in her psyche wide open.

4) While interested to see what the group does in the wake of the Prison's loss, three things didn't ring true for me. One being the Governor's failure to understand the conflict he'd orchestrated was likely to become a scenario of mutually assured destruction, the Governor's failure to understand that demolishing the fences would destroy the Prison's value (unless all that supposed caring about his new little family unit and group was just BS to gain footsoldiers to enact his revenge)....and then the way that they mirrored the fall of Herschel's farm with people getting left behind/separated, only moreso. I get it, and it's completely plausible given what was going down...I just question why they'd do it again from a writing standpoint.

All that said, it was a great episode and a very intense way to go into the mid-season break without a contrived cliffhanger. I'll be sorry to see Herschel gone, but am OK with it assuming they dont give in to the worst kind of temptation and create a fiat-escape and recovery of the Governor.

Probably one of the best TWD episodes ever, and DEFINITELY the best "Cliffhanger" to end on. Woulda liked to see Carl and Rick able to scoop up some replacement firearms from their Bin-O-Guns on the way out, but meh. A very tragic, very tense, and very action-packed episode.

P.S: When Daryl crossbowed the tank commander with the gall to try and surrender I actually yelled "HELL YEA!" That guy made it abundantly clear he wasn't at all concerned with right and wrong until he was at the mercy of one of the people he was completely unconflicted about MURDERING to steal their home. Glad Daryl killed him via chest shot. Let the bastard Walk.

[Legion2213]

I bet a few fangirls shat themselves when that walker was so close to Daryl

Shut your filthy whore mouth!!! :D

[bassman]

MZ - the comic reference you mention....the previews shown during Talking Dead show that it's definitely happening. Including a few scenes torn directly from the comic.

Anyway, good episode. Once I saw The Governor take Michonne and Hershel in the opening scene, I knew Hershel was going to get...

Comic Book Spoiler:
"Tyreese'd"

...but it was great anyway. Hershel's little moment of reflection and respect for how Rick had evolved made is death all the more pleasing. Like he had done his job and was ready to go.

I have to admit that I cheered when The Governor said "Kill em all". I would've preferred if he was on the tank and yelled it like the panel from the comic, but it was still a great nerd moment.

[AcesandEights]

three things didn't ring true for me. One being the Governor's failure to understand the conflict he'd orchestrated was likely to become a scenario of mutually assured destruction, the Governor's failure to understand that demolishing the fences would destroy the Prison's value (unless all that supposed caring about his new little family unit and group was just BS to gain footsoldiers to enact his revenge)....and then the way that they mirrored the fall of Herschel's farm with people getting left behind/separated, only moreso. I get it, and it's completely plausible given what was going down...I just question why they'd do it again from a writing standpoint.

Well, the Governor is crazy and things had escalated too far at a certain point for himself or a majority of his followers to back down. The Governor wanted the prison, sure, however he wanted a lot of things, but when the shit hit the fan they had to use what cards they'd thrown on the table.

I know what you mean about splitting the group yet again, though it is a believable outcome. And speaking of them being split off..


MZ - the comic reference you mention....the previews shown during Talking Dead show that it's definitely happening. Including a few scenes torn directly from the comic.
If they go for the Father/Son quiet time follow up episode after the mid-season break, I wonder how well it will be handled. I notice a lot of people don't like the more introspective episodes (which I agree have sometimes been a bit of a hash due to writing and pacing).


Especially when Daryl is on your side. Who said they wished him gone?
I and at least a few other people, though he has been a lot better this season than he has in the past (in my opinion, anyway). He's just too perfect, too cool, never misses and reality warps around him to allow Daryl to accomplish too many improbable feats of 'awesomesauce'. Plus, he has Bieber hair.

But like I said, when the scripts are balanced and the cast is getting somewhat equal attention, they don't have to lean too heavily on King Daryl, and the writers have been a lot more grounded in their use of his redneck commando skills this season (except for last night).

[babomb]

The Gov was listed in "Memorium" on TD, but Judith wasn't. I think that says it all. I don't remember there ever being a time that someone was listed in memorium but didn't really die, or vice versa.

[bassman]

The Gov was listed in "Memorium" on TD, but Judith wasn't. I think that says it all. I don't remember there ever being a time that someone was listed in memorium but didn't really die, or vice versa.

One thing I noticed about that....wasn't Judith buckled into her seat when the kids carried her out? It's unbuckled when Rick and Carl look at it empty. It's possible, but walkers eating a strapped-in baby probably wouldn't accidentally release those types of straps. Especially all three release points, one of which requires coordination with two hands. They'd just eat around the straps. So maybe that's a small hint someone got her.

I do remember seeing Tyreese running away from that area as the "Lori Bridge" explodes....

[sandrock74]

The Gov was listed in "Memorium" on TD, but Judith wasn't. I think that says it all. I don't remember there ever being a time that someone was listed in memorium but didn't really die, or vice versa.

I was going to bring up that point about the Governor, but you beat me to it. He was officially listed as dead, so he's gone. I honestly think Judith is dead as well...I think they are just trying not to exploit the death of a baby, you know? The only "good" way they could deal with her death is off camera. I think that was traumatizing enough to many viewers if my facebook feed is any indication.

Man, what a great episode! Hershel will be missed.

[Mr. Clean]

Daryl taking out the tank was pretty awesome. The whole thing made me laugh too.

[MinionZombie]

Probably one of the best TWD episodes ever, and DEFINITELY the best "Cliffhanger" to end on. Woulda liked to see Carl and Rick able to scoop up some replacement firearms from their Bin-O-Guns on the way out, but meh. A very tragic, very tense, and very action-packed episode.

P.S: When Daryl crossbowed the tank commander with the gall to try and surrender I actually yelled "HELL YEA!" That guy made it abundantly clear he wasn't at all concerned with right and wrong until he was at the mercy of one of the people he was completely unconflicted about MURDERING to steal their home. Glad Daryl killed him via chest shot. Let the bastard Walk.

After the flack they got for 3x16 (even though I liked that episode quite a bit), I think they were making damn sure they pleased the fans this time around ... I did wonder if they would pull a fast one on us and leave us hanging mid-battle, but thankfully they didn't and avoided dragging the inevitable out unnecessarily.

Also, damn straight, I hated that tank commander guy - a complete feckin' bastard. I was so pleased when Daryl bolted him - and, if you think about it, that's quite a moment for Daryl too. He's leave the guy to get munched on and, probably, return as a walker ... that's pretty cold, but entirely understandable. Daryl's never really had to do that kind of thing before - sure, he's battled and killed before, but that's a little different. Here the guy was surrendering (although it was not to be believed) and the heat of the battle had died down a bit ... well done Daryl!


Shut your filthy whore mouth!!! :D

:lol::lol::lol:


MZ - the comic reference you mention....the previews shown during Talking Dead show that it's definitely happening. Including a few scenes torn directly from the comic.

Hershel's little moment of reflection and respect for how Rick had evolved made is death all the more pleasing. Like he had done his job and was ready to go.

1) AWESOME!!!!!! :hyper: I've not seen Talking Dead yet, so I look forward to seeing the preview scene.

2) Yeah - there was that moment of peace ... it was nice, but all the time I'm just wincing as I'm waiting for The Governor to ruin Christmas. :p

Beautifully played by Scott Wilson though. Hershel went out like a man who didn't let this horrid post-outbreak world destroy who he was.


The Gov was listed in "Memorium" on TD, but Judith wasn't. I think that says it all. I don't remember there ever being a time that someone was listed in memorium but didn't really die, or vice versa.

Interesting...

Perhaps they left Judith out to leave people guessing until February ... or maybe, yeah, she could be alive somewhere.


One thing I noticed about that....wasn't Judith buckled into her seat when the kids carried her out? It's unbuckled when Rick and Carl look at it empty. It's possible, but walkers eating a strapped-in baby probably wouldn't accidentally release those types of straps. Especially all three release points, one of which requires coordination with two hands. They'd just eat around the straps. So maybe that's a small hint someone got her.

I do remember seeing Tyreese running away from that area as the "Lori Bridge" explodes....

They'd never show a dead, half-eaten baby, but on the other hand there isn't that much blood either. We see Tyreese running off with Lizzie & Pals, and they had Judith last (the little baby didn't look best pleased to be getting jostled around quite so much when Lizzie and her sister were struggling to carry her, lol) ... so perhaps he's got Judith.

Right, so ... what groups have we got.

1) The bus crowd, including Glenn.

2) Rick & Carl.

3) Michonne??? Off looking for her sword no doubt ... but then what?

4) Tyreese, Lizzie, the kids and maybe Judith.

5) Sasha, Maggie, and Bob.

6) Daryl & Beth.

I imagine some of them will quickly find each other, but yeah, I'm so happy we're going to get some time with just Rick & Carl. Lincoln & Riggs have played the father/son dynamic so well over these eight episodes - just brilliantly ... I absolutely cannot wait for February to rock up. :cool:

Just thinking about Hershel's death - I remember them saying with 3x02 that violence against humans is an area which can be troublesome, but they were allowed to show Hershel's leg getting taken off because it was to save his life. Now, here he doesn't get beheaded in one-whack, so it's just enough to show a mortal wound ... but then when TG finishes him off it's all on David Morrissey instead, and then they wisely show Hershel's dead pieces out-of-focus ... even if they would have been okay to show such a thing, it's good that they didn't, we see plenty to know what happened and we take a big enough punch to the gut for it to work. Showing his decapitation would have been too much, for sure.

...

A bumper edition of memes today - lots to work with in this episode after a tricky couple of weeks.

TWD 4x08 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/war-feels-edition-walking-dead-4x08.html



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0rmQ70Vmzaw/Upy_bovbHjI/AAAAAAAACUE/hLHRsvExN4U/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Rick_Not_Leaving_Go vernor_Tank_Everything_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-t7vVSXvHNEk/Upy_V029zPI/AAAAAAAACS4/tw7rFvSZ0Ho/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Daryl_Fans_Moment_S hat_Themselves_Walker_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dTg8lMEmhew/Upy_bNP3FKI/AAAAAAAACUI/cn8Mft6sv60/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Rick_Carl_Governor_ Bad_Things_LOL_No_Face_4x08_DeadShed.jpg
Yeah, I'm not much good at PhotoShopping ... particularly as I'm not even using PhotoShop to make these. :p

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-q0YZPFRvC6Q/Upy_aJAAS8I/AAAAAAAACT4/SfqjZzEg0ms/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Hershel_God_Mode_Of f_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-f4OgPymP9ys/Upy_XWSwhLI/AAAAAAAACTI/t70oTiJ6zeY/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Governor_Christmas_ Is_Cancelled_Hershel_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Qy3zQm40GbA/Upy_ZosOnHI/AAAAAAAACTs/mjxMaLycgNQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Grumpy_Governor_Is_ Grumpy_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--rrAeRoLYQs/Upy_ZtRgqVI/AAAAAAAACUA/ltBJU2T7bCA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Governor_Tara_Walls _Fences_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ANeNZ-Nhe7c/Upy_Y7qF58I/AAAAAAAACTk/DCIbxZviZeQ/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Governor_Tank_Argum ent_Invalid_Daryl_Grenade_Bitch_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0_IHaa9pk5c/Upy_XpIEN9I/AAAAAAAACTU/W1dd-gZkLqo/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Governor_Lilly_Megh an_Dale_Jeeeeesus_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0g3ArihmAO8/Upy_ajrIt9I/AAAAAAAACUM/qfdJA-LwMhs/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Lizzie_Tyreese_Damn _You_Cold_Headshot_Kills_Gun_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-HLlkoIVhNEo/Upy_YOZd-vI/AAAAAAAACTQ/qL2lt3cHxNU/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Governor_Michowned_ Sword_4x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_PreXfrf8W8/Upy_XjipqDI/AAAAAAAACTg/abIAh94k97E/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Epic_Cry_Face_Tear_ Jerker_Hershel_Rick_Carl_Judith_4x08_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[babomb]

I don't think Judith is dead, personally. I don't think they would completely dance around it that bad. They wouldn't show a half eaten baby, but they would give some positive indication that it happened. Not just an empty car seat and then never mention it again.

It would've been so much better if they showed Herschel's head get lopped off with one swing when it still had that smile on his face.

[MinionZombie]

They wouldn't have shown Hershel's head getting lopped off in one go for the reasons I put in my previous post, and I'm glad they didn't. I think if they had, the gore would have got too much in the way of the tragedy of the moment.

I hadn't even thought of this until perusing The Laughing Dead's comment feeds but - will 4x09 show Michonne stabbing Hershel's head? It'll reanimate otherwise! Poor bugger... :(

Judith's baby seat did have some blood in it, although because of the colour of the fabric I couldn't tell if it was just a little, or a lot ... if it was a little then it could be, for example, Tyreese's bloody hands picking her up and carrying her away ... but then at the same time, why not just take the baby seat with you?

It could go either way on the Judith issue, I think ... convincing theories both ways.

[Ragnarr]

The Governor must be quite a tough guy! He can be shot by Rick in his right arm (immediately following Hershel's execution) and STILL beat the lemons out of Rick's face using that very same arm!

My other head scratcher was that the Governor chose to execute Hershel (with whom he had absolutely no grudge) over Michonne (with whom he had huge grudge).

Otherwise, it was an awesome episode.

[AcesandEights]

The Governor must be quite a tough guy! He can be shot by Rick in his right arm (immediately following Hershel's execution) and STILL beat the lemons out of Rick's face using that very same arm!

Blast shields AND a cloaking device? He's part sociopath, part Klingon bird of prey.

[Ragnarr]

Blast shields AND a cloaking device? He's part sociopath, part Klingon bird of prey.

:D I mean, sometimes I'll get a bruise on my right arm from the medieval fighting I do (www.sca.org) and that arm becomes almost useless ("almost" defined as gritting my teeth as I pick up a mug of beer). A bullet to the Governor's arm? PAH! It's only a flesh wound! Still 100% for turning Rick's face into "seriously not going to be shaving for quite awhile, hope no one minds".

[kidgloves]

My other head scratcher was that the Governor chose to execute Hershel (with whom he had absolutely no grudge) over Michonne (with whom he had huge grudge).

He knew it would provoke a reaction from the prison after Hershel told him he had daughters inside and i'd say its safe to presume that Gov wanted to torture Michonne after.

[facestabber]

The Governor must be quite a tough guy! He can be shot by Rick in his right arm (immediately following Hershel's execution) and STILL beat the lemons out of Rick's face using that very same arm!

My other head scratcher was that the Governor chose to execute Hershel (with whom he had absolutely no grudge) over Michonne (with whom he had huge grudge).

Otherwise, it was an awesome episode.

I believe the Gov chose Hershel because he was flexing his muscles ala pure good vs pure evil. Michonne has questionable methods about her but Hershel was a man of unimpeachable integrity. The Gov even said so himself. The symbolism of what that represented was much stronger than had he chose Michonne.

Or we could just chalk it up to the fact the writers needed him dead and Michonne to stay employed:)

Others have touched on the decapitation. Im glad it showed a blurred vision but that still didnt sit well with me. Im not mad at the show or going to write letters but it just bothered me that they had the Gov chop it off. The brutality of that asshole is more than established. Losing a man as good as Hershel was hard enough without the Gov finishing him like that.


Minion those meme's are damn good

[Andy]

What an episode! Now that is how the walking dead should be done.. season 4 has not disappointed at all and i cant wait for February.

Couple of points id like to raise, so long to the governor an i have to say, one of the greatest villains ive seen on TV ever, after rick delivered his EPIC speech at the fence and TG appeared to lower his sword, i thought they were going for some cheese standard TV moment there.. but wow, quick snap back to the real governor huh?

As for michone's "mercy" after she impaled him, i figured it was because he left andrea to the walkers so michone was doing the same for him.

As for judiths fate..

Those of us who have read the comics know that she is dead. No way could they show that in the series but it was inevitable

Loved the nods to romero and fulci too and just wanna say, amazing episode, amazing series.. i cant fking wait until February!

[AcesandEights]

As for judiths fate..

Those of us who have read the comics know that she is dead. No way could they show that in the series but it was inevitable

That's an assumption based on the source material, which we have seen isn't always followed.

[Andy]

That's an assumption based on the source material, which we have seen isn't always followed.

They have often changed the time that events happen and made things happen sooner or later than they do in the source material, but never the less its generally followed suite.

[Ragnarr]

Or we could just chalk it up to the fact the writers needed him dead and Michonne to stay employed:)

According to what the writer said on Talking Dead, being that Hershel was such a beloved character, the TWD writers wanted his death to be memorable. Sort of like Dale's death (his inards becoming his outards lol). It just makes more sense to me that the Gov would want to kill Michonne over Hershel, but you may be correct about the Gov striking at the most moral person from the prison.

[Andy]

My own attempt at a meme. well it amused me!

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/andy/fatality.jpg

:)

[Trencher]

I think the Governor kept Michonne for later. The reason for Michonne not killing the Governor is because he does not deserve death by her sword. I liked the episode a lot. But I scratched my head over how Daryl took out the tank. Can you really do that in real life? It was great to see the tank commander die, I wish we got to see him eaten by zombies as he deserved lol.

[Ragnarr]

Hey! Just had an idea for another TWD short for the show's website.

As we know, in the mid-season finale the little girl (Gov's daughter) gets munched by a walker trapped in the mud along with that sign, "Danger - Flash Flood Zone". My guess is that he was a fisherman that was trapped and killed near the river. A backstory short might be cool to see, eh? ;)

[Moon Knight]

Hey! Just had an idea for another TWD short for the show's website.

As we know, in the mid-season finale the little girl (Gov's daughter) gets munched by a walker trapped in the mud along with that sign, "Danger - Flash Flood Zone". My guess is that he was a fisherman that was trapped and killed near the river. A backstory short might be cool to see, eh? ;)

That would actually be cool. I love thinking of what stories the walkers could tell just by the way they were found dead.

[Harleydude666]

The Governor must be quite a tough guy! He can be shot by Rick in his right arm (immediately following Hershel's execution) and STILL beat the lemons out of Rick's face using that very same arm!

My other head scratcher was that the Governor chose to execute Hershel (with whom he had absolutely no grudge) over Michonne (with whom he had huge grudge).

Otherwise, it was an awesome episode.

You have to understand, the Gov. Was never gonna let Michonne go even if Rick did give up the prison. He was going to torture Michonne until her death. Killing her the way he killed Hershel would have let her off the hook, and the Gov. Was never gonna let that happen.

[shootemindehead]

Easily the best series of 'The Walking Dead'. Some great action all the way through the first six.

F*ck this mid season break rubbish though.

Hopefully Judith is brown bread. She adds nothing to the show and her acting is crap.

[Moon Knight]

Perhaps now that Tyreese fled with Lizzie and Mika, they will run into Carol and the two of them protect the kids and all is well; until Tyreese learns Carol's dirty little secret.

[babomb]

Hey! Just had an idea for another TWD short for the show's website.

As we know, in the mid-season finale the little girl (Gov's daughter) gets munched by a walker trapped in the mud along with that sign, "Danger - Flash Flood Zone". My guess is that he was a fisherman that was trapped and killed near the river. A backstory short might be cool to see, eh? ;) There could also be dozens of walkers buried in that mud. Could've been an entire group of people surviving the earlier outbreak upstream from that location, drowned and washed downstream from flash floods. All buried and awaiting stimuli to bring them out of dormant mode. That could be one hell of a story...

[Neil]

Others have touched on the decapitation. Im glad it showed a blurred vision but that still didnt sit well with me. Im not mad at the show or going to write letters but it just bothered me that they had the Gov chop it off. The brutality of that asshole is more than established. Losing a man as good as Hershel was hard enough without the Gov finishing him like that.
I thought he was going to chop the head off and then show it to the prison gang to scare them even more!

[MinionZombie]

Others have touched on the decapitation. Im glad it showed a blurred vision but that still didnt sit well with me. Im not mad at the show or going to write letters but it just bothered me that they had the Gov chop it off. The brutality of that asshole is more than established. Losing a man as good as Hershel was hard enough without the Gov finishing him like that.

Minion those meme's are damn good

1) I'd say they had him chop off Hershel's head because A) It shows TG has completely swung back to being a sadistic arsehole, B) It allows Tara to freak out and question TG's motivations and this entire war with the prison, and C) It allows Lilly to see just what sort of man TG really is beneath all that "Brian Heriot" bullshit. Lilly wasn't included in the war briefing, she was left behind with Meghan, and the 'safe by the river' theory proved to be incorrect and Meghan was lost (poor little tyke :( ).

2) Thank you kindly, good Sir. :)


My own attempt at a meme. well it amused me!

http://forum.homepageofthedead.com/andy/fatality.jpg

:)

hehe, I was so glad when Daryl blew up the tank - he's always finding a way to survive in bad ass ways (the walker shield shishkebob), and with him lobbing grenades it just escalates things to a whole further level (the look on Tara's face - she's properly out of her depth).

Speaking of which, I wonder if we'll get to see some of the aftermath at the prison - what of Tara and Lilly? What of Hershel's possibly undead head? What of Michonne? OH MY!


Hopefully Judith is brown bread. She adds nothing to the show and her acting is crap.

:lol::lol::lol:

Harsh but hilarious.

If she is alive she'll have to go back for her red cups ... she's obsessed with those things. :p

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jn13B-iR0ig/Um6SUDRlrAI/AAAAAAAACLg/xSiwPAZNpKc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Judith_Cups_Shane_4 x02_DeadShed.jpg

:D


Perhaps now that Tyreese fled with Lizzie and Mika, they will run into Carol and the two of them protect the kids and all is well; until Tyreese learns Carol's dirty little secret.

Oooooohhhhhh! That's a great theory! That would be quite interesting ... there's also a sense of irony in 4x08 as well. Carol was teaching the kids to defend themselves (albeit with knives), and telling Creepy Lizzie to toughen up, and it was Lizzie who said they should get guns - and then Lizzie saves Tyreese's life. Had it not been for Carol, Tyreese would have been dead ... but the same goes for Karen too, so ... awkward. :p

Yeah, I hadn't even thought of that! Cool theory Moon! :)

[krisvds]

Avoided these threads for a while as I decided to watch episodes 3 - 8 in a row after the very promising start of season.

It seems I have been missing out. Though on the other hand not having to wait for seven days to get to the bloody conclusion was also worth it's while.

The short of it: I know I have been (overly) critical, especially after the very weak handling of the 'Woodbury/Andrea storyline of last season, but these last 8 episodes are the best the series has ever been.
I found myself caring for these characters, and that had been a while.
A large part of that is due to the writing. They really stepped up their game this time around. Great dialogue, believable emotions, great acting all around. The turnaround has been very obvious.

Better direction; those two 'governor - centric' episodes were my favourites, especially ep6. So glad they didn't choose to cut up those scenes and switch back and forth between the Prison and the Gov's new family.
(on a side note; The Gov with that beard and the eye patch; what a great Snake he would make in a new 'Escape from wherever' film)

Much better pacing! Episode 5 with Hershel's FLorence Nightingale act was a masterclass in how to deliver suspense and tension. A slow build up, characters you care for and a great pay off to the flu storyline.

That finale! Apart from a hammy Rick speech that drew some unintended laughs the whole assault blew the season three finale out of the water and then some.
This whole season felt like a reboot of the Governor storyline. A pity it's over so soon. I would not have minded them postponing the final attack untill the end of the season and have them explore the 'psychopath within' storyline with them cut up rats and whatnot a bit further within the prison walls.

More shocks and hard ethical dilemmas; abandoning Carol, dealing with the sick in the zombie apocalypse, poor Hershel's fate, ...

Consider me back on board. Briliant TV. Couldn't be happier.

[shootemindehead]

The show plays better when watched in a row.

It's weaknesses are diluted and the story progresses in a much smoother fashion.

[krisvds]

The show plays better when watched in a row.

It's weaknesses are diluted and the story progresses in a much smoother fashion.

Maybe so. But when I watched the season 3 DVD's a couple of weeks ago it made the silly Woodbury stuff and pretty much every scene Andrea was in stick out like a sore thumb even more. There is only so much hammy writing and over the top acting one can take in one go.

[Legion2213]

Easily the best series of 'The Walking Dead'. Some great action all the way through the first six.

F*ck this mid season break rubbish though.

Hopefully Judith is brown bread. She adds nothing to the show and her acting is crap.

And she is ugly...with a short dyke-ish haircut... :D

[Wyldwraith]

1) I don't believe Judith is dead. After the hue and cry over the Walker "dragging off" Lori's remains, there was a Fangoria interview with some of TWD people, wherein they definitively stated that a) Walkers DON'T drag off feeding-targets, and b) Lori was a special case. The Walker Rick dug around in to find the wedding ring didn't (in their statement) so much drag her off as incidentally move her remains during the extensive feeding process. They went on to state their intention to avoid such apparent ambiguity as it relates to Walker feeding-acts.

My take is that the baby-carrier wouldn't have been upright with only a minor amount of blood had a Walker gotten Judith. If it was indeed Judith's blood, that would mean a Walker either leaned down or was prone when it bit her to get the blood IN, but NOT AROUND the baby carrier. Even an infant has enough blood volume to cause some kind of gravitational droplets/spatter along the Walker's path as it moved away while holding Judith's remains. I don't believe the lack of all these possible indicators of Judith's fate is simply an oversight. Not saying I'm factually certain of my assessment, but I think I've articulated a sound enough possibility to merit withholding judgment currently, when there's just as much evidence that a human with blood on their hands/arms could've absconded with the baby.

2) Regardless of whether Lily's off-camera shot in the Governor's direction struck true, it would push my suspension of disbelief beyond its limit if the Governor somehow survived a sucking chest wound delivered by a length of steel I GUARANTEE was nothing more than wiped "clean" after an abundance of Walker-kills. Even conventional infection(s) should be enough to finish the Gov should he somehow survive that hideous chest wound.

3) I'm with you Aces. That was a .357 round that hit the Governor's upper arm. No way should he have been throwing those prize-fighter punches again and again, even with adrenaline to negate the pain.

4) Daryl spiking the tank turret with a grenade could well have detonated an already loaded shell. Even if the turret carriage was empty a modern tank turret is too durable to rupture like say, a rifle/shotgun with a blocked/obstructed barrel. All that kinetic energy has to go somewhere, and since a) It can't travel laterally due to the aforementioned turret durability, and b) The grenade was much closer to the tank compartment than the open end of the barrel, I believe it's at least possible that the force of the explosion COULD HAVE caused some sort of secondary explosion in the actual tank compartment. Either way, a badass scene.

I really dug the mid-season finale. No contrived cliffhanger, lots of MEANINGFUL action and moving dialog. All in all easily one of the best episodes to date.

[shootemindehead]

If the breach was open and ready for a round, but the round hadn't been loaded, then the grenade could have travelled down to the turret compartment. It's explosion might have set off secondary explosions of stored rounds.


W4RYc5yYvh4

[Neil]

^^ Took him two attempts to grenade it? Looks like the first one (by luck) got "shelled" out?

[MinionZombie]

^^ Took him two attempts to grenade it? Looks like the first one (by luck) got "shelled" out?

Two attempts? :confused:

He lobbed the first grenade, from behind his skewered walker shield, to take out (IIRC) two armed men. The second grenade went straight down the pipe and snuffed out the tank.

...

On the issue of The Governor's wounds, this image clears it all up:

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Walking-Dead-408-04.jpg

I would have kinda liked to see him shot in the heart, and then in 4x09 see The Governor walking around as a zombie in a further twist of the knife, but nevermind - definitive proof that The Governor is toast. Interestingly there's that wound to his neck - did they cut out a walker chowing down on his neck? It can't be due to the bullet at the angle Lilly was at - that's the hole in his forehead.

He's toast, folks.

[Neil]

Two attempts? :confused:In the real video Shootem posted! He threw one down the barrel it seems, and nothing happened seemingly because the tank shot!?



Back on topic - As regards the walker shield.... Hmmm!! We all know those rounds would have gone through! :)

[babomb]

Back on topic - As regards the walker shield.... Hmmm!! We all know those rounds would have gone through! :) Yeah, that was my 1st thought. But ah well. I let it slide cuz it was a great episode, and I'm thrilled that the prison storyline is through.

[kidgloves]

On the issue of The Governor's wounds, this image clears it all up:

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Walking-Dead-408-04.jpg

I would have kinda liked to see him shot in the heart, and then in 4x09 see The Governor walking around as a zombie in a further twist of the knife, but nevermind - definitive proof that The Governor is toast. Interestingly there's that wound to his neck - did they cut out a walker chowing down on his neck? It can't be due to the bullet at the angle Lilly was at - that's the hole in his forehead.

He's toast, folks.

It looks to me like they originally were going to go with Lily putting him out of his misery after he was attacked. The cut they went with made it more ambiguous and could have been a revenge shooting although I took it as mercy

[shootemindehead]

^^ Took him two attempts to grenade it? Looks like the first one (by luck) got "shelled" out?

I think that's just the blast of the grenade Neil.

Question is, WTF were the crew doing in the tank after that happened? Maybe there was no crew and it was filmed for propaganda purposes. Most "combat" footage is completely fake after all.

- - - Updated - - -


I would have kinda liked to see him shot in the heart, and then in 4x09 see The Governor walking around as a zombie...

Yeh, me too. That would have been a cool opener for the start of the next six episodes.

[Neil]

I think that's just the blast of the grenade Neil.

Question is, WTF were the crew doing in the tank after that happened? Maybe there was no crew and it was filmed for propaganda purposes. Most "combat" footage is completely fake after all.Ah! Maybe the first gren blew the back off the gun/barrel, so then second grenade then made it all the way into the arsenal?

[facestabber]

Well I just learned the full depth of Hershel's departure. I screen all TWD episodes before I let my daughters watch. I was a little iffy on this one but I grew up on this stuff so I let this one be watched. Show ended and they were both in tears. Dad hangs his head cause he crushed his girls spirit. They were really torn up. They are 12 and 8 and I'm worried I may be making a mistake allowing them to watch this show which they love. They met Norman Reedus and Jon Bernthal and cant get enough. Hershel sure will be missed.

Complete props to the writers and actors for creating people we care about so much. I feel invested in this show.

[Neil]

^^ Every child is different of course. I wouldn't let my ten year son watch this stuff... I might reconsider when he's about twelve...

And as for my very "with it" and bright seven year old daughter, I know for a fact any time soon it would really upset her...


Now your two were upset, but if they understand it's just a show and move on fine... But eight still seems young to me personally.

[MinionZombie]

Yeh, me too. That would have been a cool opener for the start of the next six episodes.

You mean eight episodes. :)


Complete props to the writers and actors for creating people we care about so much. I feel invested in this show.

I've seen a couple of reactions around the net where people are up-in-arms about the episode because Hershel was killed off, and admittedly I've been there before myself on other shows when they've killed someone off, but the point is - as you say - they've written a character that you care enough about that you're gutted when they're killed on the show. That's a sign of excellent writing.

It's a bummer that Hershel's gone, and Scott Wilson was such a class-act on the show, but Hershel's death was important. The Governor knows he's got daughters inside the prison and that he's the wise old sage of the group - the father of team prison - so slaughtering him is definitely intended to elicit an extreme reaction from Team Prison. Once he's rolling through the fences with a tank it's all about revenge, pure and simple, and he's intended to save Michonne for later - he'd be wanting to make her suffering long and slow, but thankfully our lady was the one who extracted the revenge. I punched the air when Michonne's sword thrust through The Governor's chest ... take that ya bastard! :elol:

[Legion2213]

I think we've all been distracted by the drama and 'splosions during the mid season finale and failed to ask ourselves the most important question...

"what is in Bob's box?"

ACME rodent mutilation and mounting kit per chance? Or just some miniture bottles of strong booze?

[Andy]

I dont understand why you would watch a show like the walking dead and kick up a stink when someone dies?

The very premise of the the walking dead is that nobody is safe, so i can understand being upset that a favourite character has been killed but actually kicking up and saying your not going to watch it anymore?

[Publius]

Perhaps now that Tyreese fled with Lizzie and Mika, they will run into Carol and the two of them protect the kids and all is well; until Tyreese learns Carol's dirty little secret.

Or Lizzie's dirty little secret. Which would be all the more dramatic now that she has saved his life.

- - - Updated - - -


Interestingly there's that wound to his neck - did they cut out a walker chowing down on his neck? It can't be due to the bullet at the angle Lilly was at - that's the hole in his forehead.
.

Could it be the exit wound? They sometimes come out at funny angles.

Agree with Neil about Darryl's walker shield. That was dumb, especially with Bob's through-and-through gunshot wound highlighting the likelihood that rifle bullets will penetrate a human body. That aluminum picnic table was no better. Poor use of cover is a consistent feature of WD gun battles.

I'd also like to know what unit Mitch was with that still used the M60 Patton!

[bassman]

Saw these on another site while discussing the possibility of Judith surviving:

https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1459661_661571223895757_352496804_n.jpg

http://comicbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/tyreese-closer.png

Not definitive and I personally don't think Judith should live, but it's some pretty compelling evidence that she might be with Tyreese and the other kids...

[shootemindehead]

I'd also like to know what unit Mitch was with that still used the M60 Patton!

Yeh, thought that was odd. They were farmed out to the reserves in the 80's.

Maybe some weekend warriors had one?

Weird choice nonetheless.

[Publius]

Yeh, thought that was odd. They were farmed out to the reserves in the 80's.

Maybe some weekend warriors had one?

Weird choice nonetheless.

As far as I know, even the Guard and Reserve had phased them out by the late '90s. Though I'm sure the Army keeps some stored away in a boneyard somewhere. Or maybe Mitch worked at an Army museum. :P

[Darkest Hour]

Snow makes the page CRAWL much so that my cursor skips many blinks.

Amazing that the governor albeit much stronger than a dreadlocked skinny girl could not just lop off Herschels noggin armed with her ninja lightsaber.

Tis wha ti tis.

DH

[Neil]

Snow makes the page CRAWL much so that my cursor skips many blinks.

Amazing that the governor albeit much stronger than a dreadlocked skinny girl could not just lop
off Herschels noggin armed with her ninja lightsaber.

Tis wha ti tis.

DH

Turn the snow off with the style option bottom of the forum :)

[MinionZombie]

@Darkest Hour - I think it's because the walkers are rotting, so their flesh isn't as meaty as a living human ... walkers are a bit more 'gloopy' so Michonne can slice through them like butter. :D

@Legion - I think it's that bottle that Bob took from the medical college place, you know, the one that he was desperate to save when his bag went over the edge of the roof and then Daryl found it?

There's evidence either way on Judith. Sure, she wasn't included on the "In Memoriam" bit on Talking Dead, but the way Hardwick spoke about that it didn't necessarily seem like they were just hiding a reveal. It seemed more like that they actually didn't know one way or the other ... I guess we'll find out in February. :shifty:

[Publius]

Amazing that the governor albeit much stronger than a dreadlocked skinny girl could not just lop off Herschels noggin armed with her ninja lightsaber.

Tis wha ti tis.

DH

Cleanly decapitating someone with a katana is more about technique and skill than brute strength.

[bassman]

I think we've all been distracted by the drama and 'splosions during the mid season finale and failed to ask ourselves the most important question...

"what is in Bob's box?"

ACME rodent mutilation and mounting kit per chance? Or just some miniture bottles of strong booze?

I figured it was booze. He put it in the box and was battling his alcoholism and the decision whether or not to drink. That's when he heard Sasha coming and attempted to run off before she saw him. Also, Daryl asks "you good??" when he handed him a gun outside for the battle. Meaning "have you been drinking?". So if you add all that up, I think it was just booze in that box.

There is a possibility it has something to do with the rats, though. The way that rat was pinned open to the board looked like something a professional would do. So I assumed either Bob or the now deceased "Dr. C".

[MinionZombie]

Or Creepy Lizzie ... that girl ain't right ... I bet she's been the secret slice & dicer of the prison's rodent population.

[AcesandEights]

Or Creepy Lizzie ... that girl ain't right ... I bet she's been the secret slice & dicer of the prison's rodent population.

It is a very obvious possibility given several factors. Question is: is it too obvious? :rockbrow:

[Darkest Hour]

Tyreese ain't right.
Something nutty about him he is always flipping out.

One day the writers will make him go off like a bomb.

[Ragnarr]

Tyreese ain't right.
Something nutty about him he is always flipping out.

One day the writers will make him go off like a bomb.

There's an old saying, "To a hammer, everything is a nail". I think Ty is going to be swinging his mighty hammer at a whole mess of nails soon. ;)

- - - Updated - - -


There could also be dozens of walkers buried in that mud. Could've been an entire group of people surviving the earlier outbreak upstream from that location, drowned and washed downstream from flash floods. All buried and awaiting stimuli to bring them out of dormant mode. That could be one hell of a story...

Ah yeah, I didn't think of that. Wondering now if there was some connection with the kid munching walker under the mud and that group of waist-deep walkers the Gov found on the road. Maybe I'm looking too far into it?

[Moon Knight]

Big fan of Tyreese going way back from his time in the books. His temper does enrage at times but he's really likable and before Daryl, Rick's right hand man. Really hoping to see more of that in the show as it seems they barely share any screen time together. I'm sure they got some good stuff down the pipeline for Tyreese. He's a big dude but can't shoot for shit haha; good thing he's good with the hammer. He's not perfect and that's what makes him an interesting character.

[Andy]

What did really suprise me about the response, is how nobody here has mentioned just how easilly daryl let rick off when he told him about carol?

:confused:

I thought you guys would be foaming at the mouth..

[Neil]

What did really surprise me about the response, is how nobody here has mentioned just how easilly daryl let rick off when he told him about carol?

:confused:

I thought you guys would be foaming at the mouth..

I think he's just incredibly grounded so copes well when the $hit hits the fan!

[MinionZombie]

I think he's just incredibly grounded so copes well when the $hit hits the fan!

He's mad about it, but Rick explains to him why he made that decisions, and Daryl trusts Rick very deeply, so he may not like it (none of them would), but he understands - particularly after he says he didn't want to bring her back with Tyreese out and about looking for the killer. Daryl would know that Tyreese could possibly (perhaps rather likely) fly off the handle and kill Carol if Rick had brought her back.

It did make me chuckle a bit though when that scene came up, because I was thinking of all the people who'd been going on about "but when are we gonna see Rick tell Daryl about Carol?!", and all those folks breathing a satisfied sigh of relief after two episodes worth of abstinence on the issue. :p

[Legion2213]

What did really suprise me about the response, is how nobody here has mentioned just how easilly daryl let rick off when he told him about carol?

:confused:

I thought you guys would be foaming at the mouth..

Daryl is pretty practical, he didn't even seem convinced with his own words when he said "I'll handle Tyrese", more resigned to the fact that Rick probably called it bang right (and he did call it right, I don't see any other solution that would have caused less conflict or possibly bloodshed).

[facestabber]

I've been waiting for the Carol/Daryl/Rick triangle to unfold. One of the above posters said it right. Daryl trusts Rick. I'm sure Daryl is pissed about how it went down but understands the result was probably the best for everyone. For Daryl it is like when we were kids and had our mind made up on a topic. Then a parent comes along with a valid contradiction. They are right. You know they are right. But you just want to be right so bad you have to say your piece out loud. That being said, Rick is damn lucky Daryl Dixon is in his group.

[Legion2213]

Or Creepy Lizzie ... that girl ain't right ... I bet she's been the secret slice & dicer of the prison's rodent population.

But she now has a gun and seems pretty capable of head-shotting folk...future discipline may be a problem! :D

[Trencher]

Daryl is not happy with what Rick did but he knows that Rick is a father and just a human being. Right or wrong it would be pointless to bitch about it to Rick since the other people in the prison probably would side with Rick anyway. If he wanted to do something about it he would have to do something himself.
The idea that Rick should be some kind of infallible or even great leader is something that is created by the fans of the comic and TV show. The characters in the story does not see Rick like that. They see him as the best alternative.

[Ragnarr]

Cleanly decapitating someone with a katana is more about technique and skill than brute strength.

Spot on Publius! The Japanese who train with the katana even today use (I believe) bamboo shoots tied together to simulate the resistance of bone and flesh. If a sword swing is not perfect, the blade flutters because of the slight angle and will not cut cleanly through.

And yes, the walker's flesh is rotting so it would be easier to dismember them with a katana I'd say.

[MinionZombie]

I've seen a few people around the net complain that 'not enough people died' ... but I'd argue against that.

We lost two major main characters in The Governor and Hershel, we also lost new characters such as Alisha, and we even lost Meghan ... and who knows about Judith ... plus various others like Mitch and background fodder.

I think that's plenty for an episode. I don't want character deaths to become a constant thing - one, because you'll never get enough time with certain characters before they're offed, and two, because you don't want character deaths to become 'kinda meh' or less impactful than they should be. We got a lot of time with Hershel, so his loss was keenly felt - you don't need a load of other people getting killed off.

You don't want to thin out your cast so much that you've constantly got to introduce new characters, who might not be as good as past ones, you need to get a good through-line with the characters you have, so that when they die there's something more impactful about losing them. PLUS, when people have made it this far into the apocalypse, they've been doing something right ... so cheap-shot deaths are a piss-take.

I'd prefer main character deaths to be generally more spaced out - make it more of an event - and therefore much more shocking. The sense of loss will be greater, too. Close calls are good too (e.g. Rick, Daryl, Glenn) because it keeps you on your toes and in this world some people are going to have near-misses or get seriously roughed-up (like Rick).

So, all-in-all, I think the body count for 4x08 was ideal. Two major losses, a couple of secondary losses, and background fodder. That's plenty.

[zombieparanoia]

Cleanly decapitating someone with a katana is more about technique and skill than brute strength.

Actually untrue. I was under this belief as well until a few years ago when I helped a friend slaughter some goats for a big festival/thing his community was putting on. He preferred decapitation over cutting the throat because he felt it was "quicker". We used a decent large machete and I thought the whole "you have to hit the neck just right" thing but it really went through a lot easier than I thought it would, I pretty much overswung most of the time. I chopped 4 goats whose necks were almost the size/diameter of a persons.

It is the reason why i always think in the case of a zombie apocalypse I'm not going for the brain, I'll aim for the neck, unless I have a gun and am close enough to be accurate with it.

[Publius]

The Japanese who train with the katana even today use (I believe) bamboo shoots tied together to simulate the resistance of bone and flesh.

Yep, actually rolled tatami (reed mats) often with bamboo poles in the middle to simulate bone, and often soaked in water to more closely simulate the density of flesh. In the old days they sometimes used to use real bodies to test new swords (convicts or deceased vagrants or whatever) and some old swords have markings in the blades to show how many bodies they were tested on with what kinds of cuts.


We used a decent large machete


A machete is not the same as a katana. In fact, Governor's problem is probably that he tried to wield the katana like a machete. Edged weapons can be optimized for three types of blows: thrusts or stabs, hacking or chopping, and slicing. A stiletto or foil is a stabbing weapon. A machete or axe is for hacking or chopping. Any serrated blade (like a steak knife) is designed for slicing. A katana's blade is also optimized for slicing. You have to swing it in such a way that the edge smoothly slides against the surface of whatever you're trying to cut -- a "drawing" cut. If you just chop with it like you're using a machete, you probably won't cut very deeply.

[blind2d]

Excellent episode! Sorry for mimicking everyone else on this thread, but I had to say it. I was blown away. Almost certainly one of the best of the whole show. Mud zombie was excellent. Can't wait for it to return in February! I'll miss Hersh, for sure.

[MinionZombie]

Publius - indeed, and also look at when TG does decapitate Hershel. He takes 3 or 4 swings - or hacks, rather - and it's very much more of a machete-wielding action that he takes, whereas when Michonne uses it, it's as you say, all about slicing and movement. TG's strikes were more just direct hacks at poor old Hershel's neck.

[Legion2213]

In the old days they sometimes used to use real bodies to test new swords (convicts or deceased vagrants or whatever) and some old swords have markings in the blades to show how many bodies they were tested on with what kinds of cuts.

Yep, I saw a documentary on that, they'd have things like "cut through both hips" inscribed on them and such-like.

Pretty brutal stuff.

[zombieparanoia]

A machete is not the same as a katana. In fact, Governor's problem is probably that he tried to wield the katana like a machete. Edged weapons can be optimized for three types of blows: thrusts or stabs, hacking or chopping, and slicing. A stiletto or foil is a stabbing weapon. A machete or axe is for hacking or chopping. Any serrated blade (like a steak knife) is designed for slicing. A katana's blade is also optimized for slicing. You have to swing it in such a way that the edge smoothly slides against the surface of whatever you're trying to cut -- a "drawing" cut. If you just chop with it like you're using a machete, you probably won't cut very deeply.


Wrong. A katanas blade geometry and striking style optimizes it for a lead tip strike. The curvature of the blade maximizes the blades kinetic energy into the top few inches, this is why in Kendo or Iaido you don't see a lot of slicing. You would never try to strike with a katana with an impact point of the middle of the blade and then slicing out towards the tip. Just the tip, just for second. Slicing being defined as a cut which starts at one point in the blade and then uses movement across the surface face of the blade to optimize cutting efficiency see also: sawing(like a serrated knife on a steak). Your explanation makes no sense, a serrated knife is for slicing but so is a katana(non serrated)? A katana is a chopper, a highly optimized chopper, but still a chopper nonetheless. I understand what you're getting at in that blades are function optimized with different blade geometries and bevel angles etc but what you're saying is just not true. It is a commonly held misconception among martial artists and sword enthusiasts who have more time in theory than field application.

Unfortunately so is the idea that a tatami mat soaked in water and rolled tightly around bamboo simulates the density of flesh. Take a tatami mat and run a reasonably sharp knife across its surface, it might be damaged but not much, now do that with a pork roast or some piece of meat, waaay more damage. Because one is highly fibrous and dense and the other is just meat, which is surprisingly yielding to blades and edges, bones are softer than we think, with nowhere nearly the resilience of bamboo. It would take far more force and pressure to nominally damage a roll of reeds around wood than human flesh.

[AcesandEights]

Oh, Christ...never thought an honest to goodness interwebz katana debate would darken our door.

Just please, my gaijin brothers, do not bring dishonor upon our house.

[zombieparanoia]

Oh, Christ...never thought an honest to goodness interwebz katana debate would darken our door.

Just please, my gaijin brothers, do not bring dishonor upon our house.



You rack honor and disciprine.

Ok how about another M-4 vs Ak-XX debate, with particular emphasis on ammunition availability and military historical use?

After that probably wrap up with a star wars vs star trek and Over vs Under toilet paper orientation double header.

[Wyldwraith]

On a different note concerning katanas,
Honest question as I lack the practical knowledge AND extensive theory concerning the weapon. Would it really be anywhere near as easy to THRUST with a Katana as Michonne often makes it out to be? Ie: The Governor chest-stab, countless stabbings into an eye-socket and out the back of the head etc etc...

Just curious, and not intending to start some Geekwar...just seemed like an awful lot of the katana action from Michonne in TWD seems more lightsaber and less metal-bladed weapon. Stuff like cleanly shearing the front of a skull off, beginning at the crown of the head and ending with perfectly straight-line bone shearing that removes the face entirely.

Not that it really bothers me. Like any other action/survival horror fan I've long since become inured to improbable feats with edged weapons. (Though if you REALLY want to see some TRULY RIDICULOUS blade-action on zombie-vampire-type critters, watch Against The Dark, w/ Steven Seagal. Campy movie, but wins the prize for most lightsaber-like imitations with various bladed implements.) Was as I said just curious how easy, difficult or impossible the various iconic action moves with everything from machetes to katanas actually are.

[shootemindehead]

There's absolutely nothing in 'The Walking Dead' that's real about any kind of stabbing, cutting, slicing or gouging.

People stick all sorts of things through bone, flesh and muscle with most ridiculous ease.

[AcesandEights]

There's absolutely nothing in 'The Walking Dead' that's real about any kind of stabbing, cutting, slicing or gouging.

People stick all sorts of things through bone, flesh and muscle with most ridiculous ease.

Like all the fence line killings!

Gotta chalk it up to the unspecified ins and outs of zombiedom in the TWD universe and extend that disbelief a bit further, eh? It doesn't really bother me, but it rarely passes me by unnoticed.

- - - Updated - - -


Over vs Under toilet paper orientation double header.

Didn't even know this was a thing till the last few years. I mean, what barbarian lets their toilet paper hang behind/ under the roll?! :mad:

Am I right?

- - - Updated - - -


On a different note concerning katanas,
Honest question as I lack the practical knowledge AND extensive theory concerning the weapon. Would it really be anywhere near as easy to THRUST with a Katana as Michonne often makes it out to be? Ie: The Governor chest-stab, countless stabbings into an eye-socket and out the back of the head etc etc...


Can't say for sure, but with thrusting at a decent sized target (i.e. The Gov), I'd guess it would be perfectly likely, but the person wielding the sword will have to shift their grip and/or alter their stance/footing. Probably would do both if they weren't off balance or too distracted or confined.

Just a guess, though.

My big problem with the Katana is...it'd break eventually under the use it's getting, pretty quickly I'd think (please, I'm not up to date on the comic, so don't hint about if it happens at some point).

[Legion2213]

Regarding the ease of walker killing in TWD universe, I look at it as balancing out reanimated corpses that should be nothing more than piles of bones by now. :)

Oh, and toilet roll...it's over...always over...standards and all that. :D

[Buzzbomb]

Looks like Carol taught her students well... and Glenn now gets the vacation he wished for too!

That clip at the end where the Governor's "King" chess piece gets trampled by a walker was a lovely touch... I'd have preferred it if the Gov' had meet a similar fate to 'Rhodes', but I guess you can't have everything.

Presumably, the prison crowd will have a pre-arranged meeting place (hopefully stocked with provisions)... so it won't take too long for them to find each other.

I can't help but think that Lizzie & co didn't make it out of the prison, so perhaps there will be a rescue attempt in the offing?

Re Judith... if anyone (other than one of the kids) had picked her up, why not just lift the carrying case, rather than take the baby out?

I'm wondering if Bob the medic might be responsible for the rat disection?

Another awesome episode - roll on Feb!

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, I'd like to have seen the gov go down screaming like a bitch, while his innards were being torn out of his stomach.

That would have been nice.

[Darkest Hour]

Couple things from my post that got lost that I remember (more to come?).

Looked a lot like the zombie who stomped the eye patch chess piece when .gov was headshot by his woman was the one with the head in a bag out in the woods that Wick Whines didn't head shot.

Darryl is dirty he's mean he is mighty and unclean.Holy schnikes did his gun have the right SFX when SHTF or what?

Boolits do not make sparks when they hit grey primered buses (or anything) can the entertainment industry stop doing this NOW?

Sasha was mostly ambulatory when she was thanking Bob after the bleeding sickness,the one scene Glenn had he looked like he had spent the previous week tied up nude in a gay bathouse getting butt bleeped.Kill him now!

Writers: who cares about Maggie flying?The dialog is really urine poor and mostly worthless and uninteresting.I just cant see people talking about dumb stuff like that in any PA universe YMMV.

TTYL
DH

[sandrock74]

Re: toilet paper.....it's always front face over hang. We're not savages.

[rongravy]

Re: toilet paper.....it's always front face over hang. We're not savages.

Whew, that's solved. Now if someone could just tell me which way to lay a baby when it's sleepytime. Is it on the back, on the stomach, or hanging upside down like a bat/pinata?

P.S. Sooooooooooo bummed we have to wait until mid February to find out what up, and if Judith ended up as an hor d'oeuvre for zeds.

[MinionZombie]

Boolits do not make sparks when they hit grey primered buses (or anything) can the entertainment industry stop doing this NOW?

Writers: who cares about Maggie flying?The dialog is really urine poor and mostly worthless and uninteresting.I just cant see people talking about dumb stuff like that in any PA universe YMMV.

TTYL
DH

1) Because then the viewer wouldn't see the bullet hits coming. You'd have a much better idea of where they were coming from and hitting if you were right there in the actual gunfight for real, but sitting on your sofa staring at a television you need a little more help and a little more razzle dazzle to make bullet hits read correctly for the audience.

2) Even in the post apocalypse you've got to allow time for nostalgia and dreams.


Re: toilet paper.....it's always front face over hang. We're not savages.

Damn straight! :lol::lol::lol:

[AcesandEights]

P.S. Sooooooooooo bummed we have to wait until mid February to find out what up, and if Judith ended up as an hor d'oeuvre for zeds.

Tell me about it! :|

[bassman]

P.S. Sooooooooooo bummed we have to wait until mid February to find out what up, and if Judith ended up as an hor d'oeuvre for zeds.

I am interested to see the result of that, but it's not bothering me as much as seeing everyone's reaction to Sophia walking out of the barn before the season two break. That was also the first time the show had the mid season break and this season I basically know what happens next due to the comics and previews, though.

While I think Judith SHOULD be dead, I also see some evidence that someone got her out of there in time. I honestly wouldn't care if she was alive or not, but I do know the basic plot for what happens after the fall of the prison and it seems to be a bit of a stretch to allow them to keep a living baby with them...

[Wyldwraith]

As someone who doesn't follow the comics,
I think it's to the show's advantage to continue leaving the comics behind, with only an occasional nod here and there to the "initiated." It's less limiting, and there's less chance of the staff ending up feeling inhibited/burned out while going through the motions to simply translate comic to screen if they shake it up and continue getting more and more original. I realize that this approaches blasphemy for some of the comic fans, but c'mon now, said comic fans are outnumbered in the same proportions as Walkers to Humans in the show, by those of us who've never even flipped through a TWD comic.

Not saying the show shouldn't draw inspiration where appropriate and feasible from comic-based events, just that in no wise should the comic content ever become a CONSTRAINT IMO.

On a separate note: I realize some people have been aching to see the Prison go bye-bye....but surely given that the show has become much more insular with regards to locations where episodes are shot, its easily recognized that out-of-story limitations will prevent any long-term nomadic storylines....and in all likelihood we will simply get a repeat of Season 3's beginnings. Ie: The divided group trying to meet up, followed by their casting about for another at least semi-secure location. After all, a goodly portion of bus-riders are individuals just getting over a life-threatening illness. That, and this time there are WAY MORE mouths to feed, with arguably much less means of defending themselves/securing new sites from Walkers (even in the very short-term, such as while foraging).

When you couple that with the repeatedly reiterated visual commentary on the convergence of mega-herds throughout the immediate region, one could just as easily make a case that continual movement on the roads is just as likely, if not more likely, to result in mass-casualties than finding an area that, geographically-speaking, is as isolated as they can reach while still maintaining access to things like a fresh water source and materials conducive to being used for shelter-making and staying put similar to the Season 1 camp.

Of course there are other alternatives, but until I can see evidence to the contrary, I'll remain inclined to believe that the show's now deeply-entrenched tendency not to vary complex locations with regards to what appears onscreen is likely to continue.

The neighborhood where Rick sent Carol on her way is a perfect example of what I'm talking about: They essentially got the area temporarily donated to them for shooting purposes. All I'm saying is I would not be too terribly surprised if the remainder of the season takes place in impromptu camp settings surrounded by their vehicles. I expect movement/travel scenes to involve a lot of generally woods-bordered roads without many unusual features. In other words, I think they've pretty much shot their wad already...and the season wrap up will narrow its focus to heavy character interaction so as to distract from setting limitations.

Not necessarily a bad thing mind you. I've enjoyed this season a great deal. Probably one of my favorites in fact. I just don't see the interim period between loss of the Prison and wherever they stop next for a protracted period being easy on the show, logistically speaking.

[facestabber]

I agree with Wylde regarding logistics. The prison made life a tad easier for the writers/crew. Being on the move will be much more difficult. I hope they rise to the occasion and give us a wider view of the apocalypse.

[zombieparanoia]

I don't understand why they don't just shoot the show in Detroit. All they'd have to do is fix up the area they're shooting in so it only looks post apocalyptic.

[Andy]

Regarding the following of the comic story in the series, i think they have got the mix just right at the moment where they loosely follow the comic but change certain events around, losing some of the admitedly darker stories and adding in some new ones.

Its close enough to appease longterm fans but loose enough to keep us guessing whats coming next, i mean to us comic readers now we know where their going next but the when and how are a whole other thing.

[MinionZombie]

I think over season 4A they've got the comics/show mix just right. There's enough stuff in there to remain faithful on relatively on-a-path, but there's plenty of new stuff to keep things fresh (either certain plot points happening at different times to different people, or the whole super flu storyline which wasn't part of the comics). It's not constrained by the comics, but it's hitting certain landmark moments that define The Walking Dead.

Season 3 got too far away from the comics, but it was kind of inevitable that that would happen, and in a strange way, it kind of needed to happen so they could readjust and find the correct balance for season 4A - hopefully it continues in season 4B (the Talking Dead preview certainly hints at Volume 9, which is one of my favourite trade paperbacks in TWD). :hyper:

[Moon Knight]

Season 4 hit the nail on the head as far as mixing in the comics and original content. I don't believe they should leave the comics behind at all. It just wouldn't feel right. I love the comic refrences but I also adore all the twist and turns that keep me on the edge of my seat and guessing. "Too Far Gone" is probably the best episode to date and that was highly inspired by the book; then again, "Clear" was amazing and completely original so once again, a great balance.

[shootemindehead]

Jesus, whatever they do, they shouldn't abandon the general comic storyline. That would be a disaster.

[Darkest Hour]

Writing and characterization has really shit the bed.
I know the .gov was not going to make a deal on sharing the prison.
It took Rick all day with that same dumb look on his face and he only spoke like 20 words to plead his case.
Not very effective.
Carl should have popped .gov when he had him in his sights IMHO since he is getting so good with those firearms.
Whole shebang assault would have crumbled.

DH

[Neil]

Writing and characterization has really shit the bed.
I suspect you might be in the minority with this opinion :)

[Wyldwraith]

That would've been a long shot over open sights even for Carl,
What REALLY disappointed me gun-wise this last episode was Rick. Rick's been shown to be the damned GRANDMASTER of the no-stance one-handed "offhanded" shot. If he can drill Walkers in the forehead reliably at a dead run forward, I was like "WHAT!?!?" when he BARELY managed to get .357 round into the flesh of the Gov's upper arm. No, I wasn't expecting him to drill the Governor between the eyes...but would a solid hit to the side of the abdomen been too much to ask after all the Cheat Code-y behavior the Governor has gotten away with?

Hitting him on the outside of the upper arm from something like 12-14 feet away just seemed so MEH. When followed up by the Governor going all Riddick on Rick's ass, it just made Rick seem ineffectual. And if this was indeed the last of the Governor, I feel Rick deserved a bigger bite of the bastard than a completely unhindering minor flesh wound.

And just for emphasis, I'll say it once more: This had better have BEEN the end of the Governor, because I don't think my suspension-of-disbelief could withstand survival after lung-impalement without modern medical resources (Which also assumes the enraged chick whose just seen what's left of her family die thanks to Mr. Governor hasn't just shot him in the other eye like 99 out of 100 people here would if someone responsible for the deaths of their entire family were laid out helpless before them.) Me at least. (Hey, I was raised you avenge your blood/closest friends if you can do it AND avoid prison. Dead family members/friends that are adopted family don't want to watch you rot in jail for 50yrs from the afterlife after all.)

[sandrock74]

The Governor is dead. He was included on the In Memorium section on the Talking Dead. He's dead and gone.

[Moon Knight]

He's gone.

Show and comic spoiler.

Kirkman confirms that Negan is being written in and will kill a major character. Not in S4 cause they want to have a break between The Governor and Negan.

[Darkest Hour]

Nitpicker central phoning home /sarc

Tip o' the hat to
1)Slowest reload EVAH .gov behind the bus
2) Dumbest move by Rick to date he had his gun and wanted to get into a fist fight with .gov?
Crap he shot him before when he chopped Hersh's head off.He is good&quick with guns,remember those 2 guys he killed in the bar Hersh went to?Why not just plug the sumbitch with some .357 or .38 super whatever ammo he has in that machine?

DH

[Wyldwraith]

See that's what I was thinking,
It was patently obvious even from Rick/Team Prison's perspective that the Gov's "New Army" was a very new, very untested thing. Rick is a cop, and his training would make him aware that eliminating the controlling alpha personality, ESPECIALLY in a violently abrupt way, will VERY OFTEN utterly demoralize and shatter the will of the followers to resist. Decapitating Herschel would, (and this isn't one of those armchair quarterback, easy-to-make cuz I'm not the one in danger-type calls) for me at least have been the catalyst to take my best shot. I'm no cop, certainly no soldier...so not saying I would have SUCCEEDED, but I WOULD have taken one shot while still stationary, and perhaps another as I dove/scrambled for cover...in the hopes of doing what I just described above. Other than the tank-crew, Martinez and a couple others, the rest of the Governor's new followers had Scared Civilian written on their foreheads. If my choices have been narrowed to a) Total capitulation to a sadistic sociopath, whom I KNOW is a sadistic sociopath, b) Beating feet for cover and trying to take the Governor's squad in a pitched battle, or c) Taking a close-range series of shots at the architect of the continuing threat to my safety, and the safety of those I care about/who've placed their trust in me to act in their best interests on their behalf...I go with Choice C, even though it's the choice that exposes me to the greatest personal danger. You can't win big unless you're willing to risk losing big.

No, I don't think that killing the Governor would've ended the conflict before it began. That said, killing him MIGHT have divided the invaders between those who want to risk trusting Team Prison/stop fighting, and those already firmly committed to the "Taking the Prison by force is the only viable way forward" mentality. And no, I don't believe killing the Governor would've just touched off an immediate all-or-nothing battle. Especially if it had been done moments after Herschel was killed. Could it have done so? Sure. Yet I believe the Gov's followers could've related to the notion that striking down the Gov wasn't a prelude to war, and was instead simple retaliation for the execution of an old man which they'd just witnessed.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that the story had to serve the larger purpose of moving the characters and thus the story beyond the Prison...I just wish that story-fiats could more often and more consistently depict the usage of character skillsets at the level of competency we've become familiar with said characters displaying. Like Rick being EXTREMELY GOOD at one-handed "instinctive" shooting in situations of extreme pressure. For the umpteenth time: While it may be the easiest/most expedient method to move a story along, it CAN be done without making the characters suddenly turn stupid and having them become equally ineffectual. Daryl's performance was an excellent example of this, (though in a way Daryl sometimes goes too far in the opposite direction of being Action Hero hyper-competent). Regardless of his personal victories, it didn't alter the overall direction events were taking.

Story fiat should be cloaked in circumstances and events too big, or too complex to directly confront. Rather than consistently hiding them in sudden inexplicable failures of various characters. Occasionally it would be fine, but if the show has any ongoing flaws it's this conviction on the part of the writers that it's better to use inexplicable character failures than to shape circumstances in such a way that even an intelligently realistic response on the part of the characters' still results in the necessity of the characters taking X action(s). Example: Regardless of how the fight with the Governor and his people went, once that tank rolled through the fencelines, the horde of Walkers being drawn to the immediate area by the intense exchanges of gunfire and resounding explosions would've necessitated the same evacuation that Team Prison ended up enacting. Rick getting beaten down like a 17yr old trying to stand up to a full-grown man didn't enhance anything. In fact: Given the context of events leading up to that fight, it just felt like nothing more than the Governor activating his Melee Combat Invincibility cheat code. All to set things up so Michonne could save Rick's ass while getting her revenge. Here's an equally viable action sequence: The Governor momentarily gains the upper hand in their fight, knocking Rick to the ground. Pouncing forward, intending to come down on Rick's midsection as he lands atop him to keep beating on Rick, the Governor is caught off guard when, at the last moment Rick draws his legs up, plants them in the leaping Governor's abdomen and extends, sending the Governor careening backwards and off-balance, until as his momentum plays out the overbalanced Governor topples over backward. Quickly scrambling to his knees and getting one foot under himself as he prepares to rise and rush back toward Rick to continue the fight, the Governor gasps hoarsely in shock as Michonne's katana emerges from his chest.

Same outcome, a greatly similar action sequence, just one or two differing details that make absolutely no difference to anything other than turning the Governor's fall from something to be described as "Michonne saves Rick's ass at the 11th hour" to "Michonne strikes without hesitation, taking her revenge during a moment of inattention on the part of a too-fixated Governor."

Making Villains into monoliths of Badassery up until their sudden demise doesn't make them better. It just makes them tend towards becoming cliched. The Governor was already a compelling villain/antagonist with great depth and mixes of white and gray in with the majority blackness of his soul...Jason Vorhees-like stealth-grabs, Slasher Flick Villain Situational Invincibility and atmosphere-eroding montages of just how physically easy and unthreatening the zombie apocalypse is for him personally, far from enhancing his villainous stature are the surprising blemishes (and not in a good way) of an otherwise great antagonist.

TWD has been rolling along for 3 & 1/2 Seasons now. They've had a great deal of time to experiment, and seek/receive feedback from trustworthy sources on where they knock it out of the park and where they can still improve things. I'd just like to see more evidence of an awareness that things aren't just "good enough" is all. "Good enough" is the terminal illness of Greatness.

[MinionZombie]

I just finished up a marathon re-watch session of the first eight episodes, and man, 4x08 is still gripping even though I know exactly what happens. Once the shit hits the fan, it just flies off the handle and remains in high orbit.

As for Rick versus The Governor which seems to have been quibbled with a couple of times in the last few weeks - Rick gets some good punches in there, and they're fairly evenly matched (both have sustained gunshot wounds too - TG in his arm, Rick in his leg), but once TG headbutts Rick and gets on top of him, that's when TG dominates Rick, who isn't a brawler, he's not some ultimate fighter or someone with special training - Rick's on his back, TG has the upper hand, and just keeps dishing out punishing blows to the head ... that's something you can't really fight back against unless you know some special bit of training in certain forms of fighting or whatever, so I have no problems with how the fight went down.

Rick, Michonne, and Lilly all had to be involved in the take-down of The Governor for their respective reasons. If any one of them (or two of them) had been left out entirely, people would have been short-changed. To an extent you have to engineer events to hit certain marks - must-have moments.

In terms of Rick's speech in front of a small army threatening his entire family and sancutary, it's incredibly easy to come up with the exact right thing to say from a sedentary position after three weeks of thought ... it's an entirely different thing to say the perfect thing when you're thrown into a life-or-death situation (not just for you, but your family and friends and safe haven). Think about it - how many times have you been in an argument, or on an important phone call, and tried to resolve a situation and failed, and then only thought of the perfect thing to have said once it's too late.

Yes, he could have gone a little harder on some truths about The Governor - but what's to say TG's new army would have believed what Rick was saying? A stranger over someone they've known for (presumably) several weeks (the time frame of 4x06 and 4x07 is hard to determine) who is their leader? A man who is well known to be in a relationship with Lilly and acting as a respected and loved surrogate father? As far as they're concerned, and from their perspective, anything Rick might say about anything could easily be a lie. Not so easy for Rick necessarily, and again, my above points about thinking of the perfect thing to say too late (and the clarity and comfort of hindsight), as well as having to engineer events in the script just enough to give the audience what they want (and deserve), especially after the 3x16 war that never was got some people rather pissed off (personally, I didn't mind, but it was wrong to lead viewers to expect a conclusive war and then only deliver a skirmish).

In 4x08 we got the war we wanted and the war we deserved, and the war that spurs events on in the direction they need to go. :)

It's been really nice to re-watch these past eight episodes over a couple of days, and cool to review certain scenes with the knowledge that it was Carol who killed Karen and David. Some of the things she says (before Rick's question is answered at the end of 4x03) take on an entirely different light once you know she's the perpetrator.

[Darkest Hour]

How convenient MZ you avoided the question of why SUPER RICK did not plug .gov as he came around the back of the grey bus when he had the Colt Python (TM) holstered and loaded and ready.
Right where and when .gov was doing his slo-motion reload.

Chopping off Hersh's head deserved more than a punch.
AMC Apologist!

DH

[facestabber]

^^

I'll give ya two. Gun shot could have easily drawn the attention of the G's advancing army. And secondly you are underestimating the personalness of slamming your fist in another mans face. A gun is very impersonal. A standoff weapon. Beating a man to death is the ultimate personal message to send to the Gov. Now if your gonna start that fight you better finish it. I hated to see Rick almost dead at the hands of the Gov. If only Rick would have come through my training camp.

To Wylde I liked what you wrote. This standoff does force us to suspend disbelief. As many guns as the gov had around him(even the inept scared ones) would have been trigger read to light Rick up as soon as he drew. I understand the Gov's people may have some shock due to the Gov's katana swing but they were there for a fight. I just accept the disbelief in this scene and move on. Simple truth is Rick didn't have a real chance to escape to the bus.

[Wyldwraith]

Eh,
For me, even after all this time it's still about the shot Rick DID take. If you're going to hesitate in going for cover, long enough to snap off a semi-accurate shot at someone you hate and recognize to be the guiding intelligence of the army at your gates...you try to make it count. Now, had Rick taken that shot DURING his leap for cover I would've been totally fine. Yet this is the guy who sprinted madly through downtown Zombietropolis forehead-drilling anything that looked at him funny without breaking stride. All I'm saying is that even a TINY modification to that scene could have made the results much more believable. Rick's been depicted as deadly off-the-draw, and even deadlier with the snap-shot while on the move. One can try to say he was under pressure and that adversely affected his performance, but when has he NOT been under life-or-death pressure?

And again, I wasn't advocating that Rick put a bullet between the Gov's eyes. Just a nice meaty, non-critical side of the abdomen wound. My biggest problem with the upper-arm hit is that it feels like an "Almost Miss."

[facestabber]

Eh,
For me, even after all this time it's still about the shot Rick DID take. If you're going to hesitate in going for cover, long enough to snap off a semi-accurate shot at someone you hate and recognize to be the guiding intelligence of the army at your gates...you try to make it count. Now, had Rick taken that shot DURING his leap for cover I would've been totally fine. Yet this is the guy who sprinted madly through downtown Zombietropolis forehead-drilling anything that looked at him funny without breaking stride. All I'm saying is that even a TINY modification to that scene could have made the results much more believable. Rick's been depicted as deadly off-the-draw, and even deadlier with the snap-shot while on the move. One can try to say he was under pressure and that adversely affected his performance, but when has he NOT been under life-or-death pressure?

And again, I wasn't advocating that Rick put a bullet between the Gov's eyes. Just a nice meaty, non-critical side of the abdomen wound. My biggest problem with the upper-arm hit is that it feels like an "Almost Miss."

I get what youre saying. Rick's accuracy under pressure has been shown to be beyond a master. His shooting hasnt simply been proficient up to date. Running and gunning headshots, one handed, are beyond difficult. And the scene in the bar established a Western style quick draw with accurate results. Winging the Gov is obviously another moment the writers ask us to suspend disbelief. I accept most. Some are absurd to me(gun handling) but others have no problem with. I accept this one knowing that the Gov's fate was destined to be way more personal than a single gun shot. Wylde, I know your not advocating a bullet to the Gov's brain.

Actually I would go on to say that the Rick I believe in would actually stand his ground until the fatal blow was done to the Gov. Rick admires and respects Hershel and I think would have accepted being gunned down as a necessary to not only avenge Hershel but to end the evil that the Gov is.

[Wyldwraith]

That's an excellent point I hadn't considered Facestabber,
You're right. I could DEFINITELY see Rick thinking "This evil sonuvabitch just EXECUTED HERSCHEL, IN FRONT OF HIS KIDS!!! That's it. No more...I don't care what it costs me, I'm ending this. I won't see any more people I care about, any more people who've put their trust in me die because this psychotic bastard continues to draw breath. There's no way his people can kill me before I kill him..." ::Takes a deep breath, says a silent goodbye to Carl & Judith, draws and begins unloading on the Governor as he advances.::

Ok, my "thought-process dialog" is more wordy than Rick's would be, but I think it accurately encapsulates the motives and reasoning you insightfully pointed out. Plus, there's killing the Governor..and then there's Terminator-on-a-mission-style ventilating him. People who might not be shaken by a guy taking a quick accurate shot that kills the Gov, and then dives for cover would be shitting their pants watching someone methodically advance in a calm, methodical manner, shooting the same way, until they physically cannot continue any further due to the hail of responding gunfire.

That would terrify me. Seeing in someone's eyes they've made their peace with God and expect to die in the next few seconds, but not before they take their target down with them. It's terrifying for the same reason kamikazes scared the shit out of hardened sailors and Marines...and for the same reason Walkers are frightening. Their singleminded relentless pursuit of their goal until the moment they're destroyed.

Finally, what Rick couldn't convince those people of with words he could have persuaded them to believe by turning himself into a blood sacrifice to end the Governor. Greedy, monolithically evil people don't selflessly sacrifice themselves ending the primary threat to the safety/survival of the people they're representing. Of course it goes without saying why it didn't/couldn't play out that way, but yea...your point just gets more valid the more I think about it. Good call.

[MinionZombie]

I don't think Rick would sacrifice himself in revenge for Hershel's death. He's got Carl and Judith - his own children - to care for and protect. That's more important than taking the shot right there, and besides, he already knows TG isn't going to run away now that he's stood there on top of a tank with a little army of his own. The fight's on right now, so why waste your own life in a hasty moment of vengeance, which would leave your children orphaned and unprotected by you, when it's much more sensible to run for cover and let the fight unfold as it may?

[AcesandEights]

Uneven and unbelievable marksmanship has always been a highly contrived writing method in this series (as in many with lots of gun play and protagonists that need to be kept relatively safe). The manner in which people pull off head shots is a bit ridiculous in the series (relatively par for the zombie course, however), though this is mainly done--I would think--due to a desire to both show action, yet not slow everything down.

I also wonder if gunplay is less arduous from either filming and/or a monetary standpoint....but I don't know. Thoughts?

[Buzzbomb]

Could it be argued that Rick was a just a bit rusty - not having used a gun for a while?

I kind of accept the inconsistent gun skills as the kind of timescales/budget they have to work on a particular episode. It's just one of the things about TWD that could be improved - still for me an excellent series though.

Also - one thing that's bugged me about this episode is how the tank and half a dozen cars drive up to the prison without either the prison group or the dead hearing them?

[shootemindehead]

Or...maybe Rick IS a fantastic shot...but simply missed that one?

[Andy]

I'll be honest ive never really shot a gun in my life but i imagine that while running and trying to shoot behind you at the same time, while being shot at.. your not going to have your best aim.

Just sayin :shifty:

[facestabber]

I'll be honest ive never really shot a gun in my life but i imagine that while running and trying to shoot behind you at the same time, while being shot at.. your not going to have your best aim.

Just sayin :shifty:

Andy, if you ever end up State side, Illinois specifically, and want to shoot some guns. I will make it happen for you. I feel sorry for you Brits not having the chance to send some lead down range.