TWD 4x10 "Inmates" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 4x10 "Inmates" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


Episode 4.10 – Inmates: “The group encounters many obstacles in their quest to find stability and safety, but sometimes all they have to guide them is hope.”

Written By: Matthew Negrete & Channing Powell
Directed By: Tricia Brock

The writers did episodes 4x04 and 4x05 respectively, while the director has previously helmed 3x12 "Clear" as well as 4x04. :)

[facestabber]

"She's back"!!!!!! Good stuff. Good stuff

[Moon Knight]

Great episode from top to bottom. This one took a different approach and everyone had their moment. Revelations, returns, and debuts; excellent stuff.

[JonOfTheShred]

I don't know who lucked out more, Daryl ('stuck' with Beth ;) ) or Bob ('stuck' with Sasha AND Maggie.) On the other side of the coin, I wonder who is in the shittier situation - Tyreese babysitting 3 kids on his own (until Carol showed up) or Glenn alone in the apocalypse (until he finds the last lesbian on Earth.....and later when MOTHER F*CKING ABRAHAM SHOWS UP!)

Very glad to see Abraham, Eugene, and Rosita...sweet, sweet Rosita....translated to the TV show. Gonna be crazy to have Tyreese, Abraham, Michonne, and Daryl all kicking ass together, should they all last long enough to meet back up. They could take down a friggin' herd. 4 most badass characters in the Walking Dead universe.

Dug the episode being out of order chronologically. Also thought it was cool how they built suspense with the zombie with Glenn's haircut. Glenn was badass this episode too, using the swat outfit like in the comics. Solid episode all around, I'd say Season 4 is over all definitely the strongest yet.

[MinionZombie]

Crackin' episode. I likewise enjoyed the story telling in this one - little snippets here and there, and jumping back and forth in the timeline and showing how things stitched together - and then we get a little glimpse at the reason behind that "those who arrive, survive" message on the radio.

Lizzie's a friggin' psychopath in-waiting snuffing out those bunnies (notice that they were sat in the same area, and that weird mess behind that fallen tree were the dead bunnies).

Nice that we got a bit more at the prison, and with Glenn doing what he does best as well - gathering supplies - and in a kick arse riot suit too (wading through the walkers was awesome).

Lots of nice pairings here and there - two very different emotional coping responses in Beth/Daryl ... Glenn teamed up with one of the enemy ... Tyreese teamed up with Carol (and not knowing why she wasn't there!) ... interesting ... interesting. Cool how they kept you guessing and on your toes with the bus and the walker that looked like it might have been Glenn, and then we don't see, but we get this big reaction from Maggie that slowly shifts, so we're left kind of scattered - until we see that he was actually back at the prison.

I wonder if we'll get a backstory on the bus, or whether that's just gonna be left alone now - a cheeky way to get shot of all those additional Woodburyites and get their cast back down to something manageable.

And woohoo - Abraham & Co! LOTS of interesting stuff going on in this one. :cool:

[facestabber]

Agreed with ya minion about Glen. I thought he was a great character in season 1 & 2 but faded from what made him cool in 3 and 4. Good to see him make a comeback. This was a very busy episode with so much great stuff to discuss. So much that I'll let y'all do it then I can cheaply chime in. Hahahaha. Wyld should have a field day with his favorite little psycho Lizzie. I expect a lot from you Wylde;)

[Rottedfreak]

Mentioning the bunnies and the rats now makes me realize who Lizzie is meant to be, it's also a portent for something major that will affect Carl and Carol.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah ... some meaty drama coming sometime soon with this nutjob Lizzie on the prowl - those poor little bunnies!

Now, I only read the comics via the trade paperbacks, so I don't get to see the issue-by-issue cover art, but apparently the 3-shot of Abe & Co was a spot-on likeness for it. Pretty cool - I'm glad that Gimple has put far more focus on the comics again, as Mazzara definitely drifted too far off-path. I don't want a direct adaptation, but I think Gimple's got the balance right - he's an established fan of the comics already, so I think that's really been helping the show, and has been great for rediscovering the appropriate balance.

Kinda harsh for Carol and Tyreese to just leave that dude hanging out with his walker wound ... like, 'so long pal, we're sodding off to Terminus'.

It'll be really interesting to see if everyone gets back together and how it all goes down with Carol - Tyreese doesn't know, but Rick does, Maggie does, Daryl does, Carl does ... interesting... :shifty:

ALSO - that riot gear POV shot was awesome - all those walkers right up in your face eager to gobble you down. Creepy.

TWD 4x10 Memes:

http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/wake-up-and-smell-crazy-edition-walking.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-xUfI8zw3b_I/UwJDYxwKKAI/AAAAAAAACok/Yf28v-YS2p0/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Beth_Dear_Diary_Dar yl_Dreamy_4x10_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8x7NX9gXUfQ/UwJDaj0bn5I/AAAAAAAACpM/lhFh5epHQsw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Micah_Lizzie_Tyrees e_Total_Psycho_4x10_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oMoptNhis5M/UwJDZnzLDdI/AAAAAAAACpE/mGCxtr9iusA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Judith_Back_Bitches _Deal_With_It_Glasses_Shades_Tyreese_4x10_DeadShed .jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UTyBGdK3zkw/UwJDaFbeOzI/AAAAAAAACpA/etDUNWbR0Qg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Lizzie_Psycho_Evil_ Face_Bunnies_4x10_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-lIVBoUwJGcM/UwJDY7F0lhI/AAAAAAAACo0/Ap4kvegEKok/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Glenn_Worst_Wake_Up _Call_Ever_Walkers_Prison_4x10_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QfNbI3ds_z0/UwJDYojb1aI/AAAAAAAACos/bdaOexPQpKM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Glenn_Maggie_Pictur e_Photo_Scream_4x10_ALT_DeadShed.jpg



:)

[Wyldwraith]

Wow,
So much went on this episode. And let's hear it for me and those others who called it that Carol would return once the Prison was no more. ;) Even better, Tyreese is with her, Lizzie and the sane sister (her name escapes me ATM). So we're gonna get to see Tyreese seeing what Lizzie really is...and knowing "the truth" about Carol, when all the others just know the story Carol told. Smothering a BABY? You can't tell me NOW that Lizzie isn't the odds-on favorite as the killer. No, I'm NOT saying that Carol is "INNOCENT"...because she truly does believe in euthanizing when someone has reached the point of no return and there isn't sufficient manpower to have someone watch each terminal individual waiting for the moment they expire.

That, and Tyreese knew he dropped the ball when he heard that first gunshot. He's seeing all these people go down like dominoes...unable to save anyone, and then the shot...and his facial expression was all "Oh, DAMN. What did I just do, running off and leaving those girls." Then Carol comes to the rescue (which is going to create a real damned conundrum for Mr. "If everyone else died, and it was just me, you, Carl and Judith...I wouldn't want you around my kids" Rick. Having saved Judith, Rick can't very well at some later point go "While I appreciate you saving my daughter and the two young girls who look to you as a mother-figure, we've been through this already so I'm kicking you out AGAIN."

Not to mention that with everything that went down at the Prison, Rick's dilly-dallying about coming clean to Tyreese has (inadverdently) created what amounts to an accidental "Conspiracy of Silence"...since Tyreese has now been thrown into Survival Mode with the woman ostensibly believed to have murdered his squeeze and that other guy. A problem that is only going to become more exacerbated if and when Carol ends up saving Tyreese's life from a Walker he doesn't see or somesuch...If Tyreese doesn't "even it out" by saving Carol in return before finding out what the others believe to be the truth. It's kind of difficult to walk over and strangle someone whose watched your back and saved your ass when there was no one else.

That, and given how fragmented the group currently is...and given all the losses....Rick can't justify ousting a proven survivor/combatant at this juncture. So I'm guessing he's gonna initially remain quiet about the Carol issue...and then realize that initial decision is more binding than he wants it to be. Because if Carol sticks around for X period of time, during which everyone "in the know" stays silent, how would they later tell Tyreese? At that point they're complicit in the whole mess, and Tyreese would be unable to trust any of them. It has Group Fracture written all over it, and (assuming the majority of the people eventually re-coalesce into one large group) NO ONE is going to be in a hurry to splinter the group all over again. Let's remember that Daryl wanted to go looking for Carol, but Rick played the "You're needed here, you've got responsibilities" card to keep him from doing so. I believe it would be a completely different story with Daryl if Carol was actually standing there.

All in all an excellent episode. I loved the stuff with Glenn...and the bus tension was ACTUALLY tense. Don't know what to think of this Sargeant Abraham guy. My first impression was that he's cut from the same cloth as the military commander in 28 Days Later. I could be wrong, since it's a snap judgment...but that's my initial impression.

I'm liking the back 9 of this Season a lot so far. My ONLY concern is how long it's going to take for everyone to group up. The Woodbury/Prison back-and-forth has demonstrated that consistently jumping from one setting/group of characters to another setting/group of characters beyond the short-term is problematic, to say the very least.

There's a lot more rattling around in my head after this episode, but it all hasn't yet gelled into a coherent whole as yet.

[kidgloves]

I'm confused about Glen.
Wasn't he on the bus at the end of Too Far Gone?

[Saurian]

Heres my take:

Spoiler*******************Dont read if you dont read the books*****************

Carol and Tyreese are going to hook up just like they did in the comics. The director dude seems to like to go the way of comics more then last guy did. Tyreese will find out after they do the naughty a couple times. However, I think it will be the three foot tall demon person that actually killed and burned the people at the prison but carol didnt want her to take the blame cause deep down the girls remind her of sophia still. I think at some point Michonne and Rick will hook up (nasty as hell just cause to me it doesnt seem to fit). Terminus ends up being the "Alexandria Safe Zone" just not how it is in the books.

[facestabber]

Hey Wylde do you watch The Talking Dead? An interview with Carol, in her wording, makes it seem like she was the one that ended Karen and other guys life. She explained her initial reaction with Tyrese was fear after seeing him swing his hammer with vengeance and wondering if "he knew what she did". I'm not saying your Lizzie theory is completely dead but the way she explained it made me feel more toward her as the killer. And your right about everyone including Rick welcoming her back. Their protected society got blown up and in a world where friendlies are getting less and less you have to regroup with who you know.

[Legion2213]

Very enjoyable episode indeed, lots to take in as I've only just watched it, but it was good to see Glen using his head and tooling up. Glad that the sexy lezza girl survived, she was another innocent victim of the governor, and hope she gets to stick around.

Just realised that Abraham is "Cooper" from Southland (which ironically I just watched all 5 seasons of over the last month or so, so I like the actor and will welcome him and his character to TWD!)

Oh, Lizzie is scarier than any walker! Ricks little baby had a narrow escape there...unlike the poor little bunnies. :(

Last weeks episode, although solid didn't rock my socks, this weeks just fills me with the feeling that "we are back!" :)

[Doc]

I'm confused now. The midseason finale seemed established that they had a rendezvous point in the event of emergencies. So, did the writers forget or something...why didn't the characters just go there?! :confused:


And how in the heck did everyone on the bus become zombified or zombie-chow? :|

[sandrock74]

And how in the heck did everyone on the bus become zombified or zombie-chow? :|

I would think all the bullet holes on the bus would indicate someone (or someones) got shot, died and reanimated. Done.

[Harleydude666]

Wow,
So much went on this episode. And let's hear it for me and those others who called it that Carol would return once the Prison was no more. ;) Even better, Tyreese is with her, Lizzie and the sane sister (her name escapes me ATM). So we're gonna get to see Tyreese seeing what Lizzie really is...and knowing "the truth" about Carol, when all the others just know the story Carol told. Smothering a BABY? You can't tell me NOW that Lizzie isn't the odds-on favorite as the killer. No, I'm NOT saying that Carol is "INNOCENT"...because she truly does believe in euthanizing when someone has reached the point of no return and there isn't sufficient manpower to have someone watch each terminal individual waiting for the moment they expire.

That, and Tyreese knew he dropped the ball when he heard that first gunshot. He's seeing all these people go down like dominoes...unable to save anyone, and then the shot...and his facial expression was all "Oh, DAMN. What did I just do, running off and leaving those girls." Then Carol comes to the rescue (which is going to create a real damned conundrum for Mr. "If everyone else died, and it was just me, you, Carl and Judith...I wouldn't want you around my kids" Rick. Having saved Judith, Rick can't very well at some later point go "While I appreciate you saving my daughter and the two young girls who look to you as a mother-figure, we've been through this already so I'm kicking you out AGAIN."

Not to mention that with everything that went down at the Prison, Rick's dilly-dallying about coming clean to Tyreese has (inadverdently) created what amounts to an accidental "Conspiracy of Silence"...since Tyreese has now been thrown into Survival Mode with the woman ostensibly believed to have murdered his squeeze and that other guy. A problem that is only going to become more exacerbated if and when Carol ends up saving Tyreese's life from a Walker he doesn't see or somesuch...If Tyreese doesn't "even it out" by saving Carol in return before finding out what the others believe to be the truth. It's kind of difficult to walk over and strangle someone whose watched your back and saved your ass when there was no one else.

That, and given how fragmented the group currently is...and given all the losses....Rick can't justify ousting a proven survivor/combatant at this juncture. So I'm guessing he's gonna initially remain quiet about the Carol issue...and then realize that initial decision is more binding than he wants it to be. Because if Carol sticks around for X period of time, during which everyone "in the know" stays silent, how would they later tell Tyreese? At that point they're complicit in the whole mess, and Tyreese would be unable to trust any of them. It has Group Fracture written all over it, and (assuming the majority of the people eventually re-coalesce into one large group) NO ONE is going to be in a hurry to splinter the group all over again. Let's remember that Daryl wanted to go looking for Carol, but Rick played the "You're needed here, you've got responsibilities" card to keep him from doing so. I believe it would be a completely different story with Daryl if Carol was actually standing there.

All in all an excellent episode. I loved the stuff with Glenn...and the bus tension was ACTUALLY tense. Don't know what to think of this Sargeant Abraham guy. My first impression was that he's cut from the same cloth as the military commander in 28 Days Later. I could be wrong, since it's a snap judgment...but that's my initial impression.

I'm liking the back 9 of this Season a lot so far. My ONLY concern is how long it's going to take for everyone to group up. The Woodbury/Prison back-and-forth has demonstrated that consistently jumping from one setting/group of characters to another setting/group of characters beyond the short-term is problematic, to say the very least.

There's a lot more rattling around in my head after this episode, but it all hasn't yet gelled into a coherent whole as yet.

Regarding jumping from one setting to another. I think it works here because they are not jumping back and forth like they did with the Woodbury story. This past episode they did a great job spending about 12 minutes on each group instead of going back and forth, it worked for me because we got continuos straight up story telling.
I'll tell ya what I'm hoping they will do if they have balls enough, one group just never reunites and we never see them like the Morales family, another group is killed off and if they really want to shock us...

either Glen or Maggie gets eaten by the so-called hunters.
That'll really show me something

[Morto Vivente]

I'm confused about Glen.
Wasn't he on the bus at the end of Too Far Gone?

Wasn't there some back and forth between Maggie and Glen, where it appears that he'll remain on the bus.

Another twist in a great episode though. The individual story lines really hit a lot of notes, plus the walkers were excellent. The theme of survival was right in your face this time. The Lizze and Judith sequence didn't shy away from it at all....Quite chilling. Not every episode can achieve this, with the group being completely divided and seemingly at their weakest. What's everyone prepared to do? GLEN WAS GREAT, not only was he willing to cooperate with the lesbian chick, even although he knows she was involved in Hershel's death (to at least some extent)... BUT ALSO PUSH HIS WAY OUT OF A WALKER PILE ON!!. Tyreese was prepared to leave two kids alone with a baby. You could argue that it was to save the people in trouble, or maybe he realized he was up to his neck in shit, and desperately needed help? Carol saving the girls may really mess with his mind later,
if she's the killer and not warped Lizzie. :evil: Possible spoiler but I doubt it... Could they have done it together?
Initially Daryl looked like he was ready to give up, but Beth was prepared to walk into the woods, at night, alone.


I wonder if any of the mini groups will break the "code of the prison" aside from the as yet unknown killer? AND WHAT THE F**K HAPPENED ON THAT BUS?!!


Perhaps I'm jumping the gun here, but could this turn out to be the best season of "The Walking Dead" so far.....Anyway, loved the episode. I'm off to watch it again.

[Zombie Snack]

Solid episode...keep them coming.

[Morto Vivente]

A great line from Sasha after the bus carnage..."And they got away?"

[zomtom]

That Lizzie is turning out to be one scary little girl. Those poor bunnies and poor little Judith!! Lizzie went into some sort of psychotic haze as she was smothering Judith. She didn't even react to the oncoming walkers!! I'm still sticking by my guns with my original theory; Lizzie killed Karen and David. I've been to a number of other Walking Dead sites and a lot of people are coming to that conclusion as well. Carol called Lizzie weak. Shortly after Karen & David showed up dead. I can't help but feel she had something to prove to Carol and Carol feeling guilty, took responsibility. I guess only time will tell. Over all, another solid episode. Good God, I LOVE this show!!!

[Trencher]

I am glad I was not the only one on the board that noticed the baby strangling scene. Judith will probably have brain damage if she gets to grow up. Very uneven episode. Lots of great stuff only the weak ass zombies not being able to pull one guy to the ground when they were a whole group dragging down the episode for me at first but the awful introduction to Abraham and his group really soured an otherwise mostly great episode. The whole group looked way way to comic booky not realistic at all! From the preview it sounds that the actors are okay though so if they get them in some less gimmicky clothes their characters might be salvaged.

[MinionZombie]

I'm confused now. The midseason finale seemed established that they had a rendezvous point in the event of emergencies. So, did the writers forget or something...why didn't the characters just go there?! :confused:

And how in the heck did everyone on the bus become zombified or zombie-chow? :|


I wonder if any of the mini groups will break the "code of the prison" aside from the as yet unknown killer? AND WHAT THE F**K HAPPENED ON THAT BUS?!!

There was a brief mention during the gunfight that they had a rendevous point - but my impression was that, because they were too comfortable in the prison, their plan wasn't that solid - and I don't think they'd really drilled that escape plan either. Plus, it's one thing to make a plan that you'll get in your vehicles and go to a particular spot in theory, and it's entirely another when you've got walkers, machine gun fire, and explosions all around you - everyone gets split up, people start to panic, and the plan quickly goes to pot.

As for the bus, the sick people were on that - they got their meds just in time (for some), but for others (maybe even just one or two) they didn't make it and reanimated on the bus - it's close quarters, people are pretty fried in their minds, many of them are weak (some of the walkers clearly had been bitten), so chaos ensues, automatic gunfire in a confined space - maybe some were killed accidentally ... general chaos.

Glenn was in the bus, but he was clearly rather annoyed about being weak and not being able to help out in the fight (and letting Maggie go out there without him), so obviously he hopped off the bus at some point and was on/near that catwalk when it was blown up so he was knocked out. Or maybe he was in the prison itself - but was feeling pretty ill - and collapsed just when he found out the catwalk was blown up. It's a bit of a cheat as you don't see anyone there when it blows in 4x08, so perhaps my second reasoning is more likely for that event, although in the making of featurette on YouTube they seemed to suggest he was knocked out by the explosion.

Anyway - they certainly kept the tension in the scene before they reveal where Glenn actually was.

I liked the intro shot of Abraham & Co - if you're going to introduce three new characters, do so in an exciting way - an iconic way - think of the way they introduced Michonne in 2x13, which was a very iconic graphic novel kind of way. You clearly get to see these three new people, you get a sense of their physicality and their personality very quickly, and it plays to the hardcore fans as well.

[bassman]

Loved the reveal of Abraham and friends, but thought the other two big reveals of Judith and Carol were kind of lazy. Anyone could've seen them coming from a mile away.

In all though...great episode. The two back from the mid season break have been quite good. It's been nice to see the group back on the road. Or railroad, depending on how you look at it...

[AcesandEights]

I do like the pacing, action and themes for this episode. Very well done! I just hope we see some storylines getting pushed forward eventually. I like that there isn't too much metaplot going right now and I realize they are taking a slow reset approach these first episodes back and doing a solid job of it, but they will need some meat and conflict later on.


the awful introduction to Abraham and his group really soured an otherwise mostly great episode. The whole group looked way way to comic booky not realistic at all!
They did look a little cosplay, didn't they? It struck me right away. Forgivable, though. Hopefully it will work out in the end and the actors will pull it out.

[bassman]

Abraham and Rosita looked fine, I thought. Eugene's mullet was really the only thing that looked "comic booky" and "off" to me. Which is kind of funny when you consider how people were thinking Michonne would ruin the show. Instead, the woman with a samurai sword is accepted and a guy with a mullet looks strange. I can drive five minutes down the road and find a guy with a mullet....

[zombieparanoia]

Good episode all around I thought, I liked that carol came back, I like the beth/daryl dynamic and want to see where that goes. I didn't like that glenn didn't go to the gun barrel or grab extra ammo before he left with the lesbian. I also didn't like the physical appearance of the actor who plays Abraham, in the comic Abraham was a former marine and talks about how his wife and kids died and how "he literally tore those guys apart with his bare hands" that guy looks like he could maybe tear into a bag of chips I just pictured him as being more of a Viking y'know? Big, tough, strong, kind of scary thousand yard stare, hard looking mofo, this guy is kind of average, a bit doughy.

[AcesandEights]

I just pictured him as being more of a Viking y'know? Big, tough, strong, kind of scary thousand yard stare, hard looking mofo, this guy is kind of average, a bit doughy.

I know what you mean. This actor is a big burly guy, but Abraham was always drawn as completely diesel, though that may be a bit unrealistic in of it self, as I don't know if he'd be able stay supah ripped over a year into the zombie apocalypse.

[bassman]

Weren't most or all of the guns from the barrel dispersed by Daryl while Rick was talking to The Governor in 408? Daryl and Beth had one or two in 410, but I believe the rest were scattered about, lost, or out of ammunition during the prison battle?

[AcesandEights]

Weren't most or all of the guns from the barrel dispersed by Daryl while Rick was talking to The Governor in 408? Daryl and Beth had one or two in 410, but I believe the rest were scattered about, lost, or out of ammunition during the prison battle?
Yeah, I don't think the prison yard was the place to play pick up sticks and search for a gun here or there with that horde in it. Not when Glenn still (apparently) felt like crap.

[Wyldwraith]

Re: Carol Vs. Lizzie as the Killer:
At this point it's functionally irrelevant who did it, unless/until Lizzie escalates further and becomes a problem all by herself. Carol is thick in a survival situation with Tyreese, and likely to remain that way for some time. Rick's hesitance to go talk to Tyreese when he had the chance has, as I said, become a more binding decision than Rick wants it to be. Ie: Imagine them all regrouping, and Rick telling Tyreese after all this time. Nothing good comes from that, at all. That, and as things continue to happen I think Tyreese is going to find more and more reasons to see himself in the situation of wanting to be able to go back and change something's that happened. He already would be, except Carol saved the day.

So far as the jumping around from group to group. SO FAR I've enjoyed it, and believe its been done well. My point focused on the fact that the jumping around can't be kept up LONG-TERM, without running afoul of the same pitfalls Season 3 did. Yes, right now it makes perfect sense as a vehicle for the story. It won't be a sustainable technique is all I'm saying. However, they seem to understand that...as each episode someone has found some others who were on their own. As many times as we saw that "Hitchhikers may be escaped inmates" sign from different PoVs, they're making it very apparent that, whether they know it or not, most of the group is within the same general area. Which makes sense, since they're all on foot and had to move into the woods to lose the Walkers. It may LOOK nice and flat, but anyone whose spent much time in the great outdoors knows that no path = slow going.

Case in point, Michonne finding two different location/direction of travel-oriented clues which helped lead her to Rick & Carl serves to underscore the point that, at least as yet, no group has gotten very far from the Prison. (BTW, if we're accepting the logic of the jawless/armless Walkers serving as active Walker camo...by extension then two listless/inactive jawless and armless Walkers standing passively at the ends of their tied-off leads like a horse that's been left at a hitching post SHOULD serve to keep other Walkers from going into hunting mode concerning the house Carl, Rick and Michonne are in. Sort of the reverse of the daisy-chain-herd effect. Ie: In "Walker Logic" other Walkers see those two Walkers in "Passive Standby Mode" and, barring any loud noises or eye-catching sights through a window or somesuch, other Walkers should consider the house devoid of prey. At least that seems to be the logical extension of Michonne's "Walker Camo Technique" IMO.

[Neil]

Great episode from top to bottom. This one took a different approach and everyone had their moment. Revelations, returns, and debuts; excellent stuff.

I enjoyed it apart from daft people standing in the middle of a brawl with zombies instead of just running 20ft away to turn and fight them from one angle/front :)

[MinionZombie]

I know what you mean. This actor is a big burly guy, but Abraham was always drawn as completely diesel, though that may be a bit unrealistic in of it self, as I don't know if he'd be able stay supah ripped over a year into the zombie apocalypse.

Yeah, it's gonna be hard to find good nutrition in that kind of world, and even going for stretches without any food at all - or only meagre rations - you're not going to have enough protein to keep yourself totally buffed up ... plus, this isn't the kind of world for a gym, so the type of exercise is going to be very different and won't result in ripped looking muscles ... it'd be a grand chance to get your stamina up, mind. A lot of people in that world would be slimming down and generally more lithe, particularly this far into the apocalypse ... not everyone, but most folks. But there's only so far you can go - these are actors living in the real, non-zombie-apocalypse world, so their diets are vastly different to their counterparts on the show. Although, they do say that they lose weight making the show (the heat, the physical exertion), so Cudlitz will no doubt get into more apocalyptic shape as the episodes progress.

To an extent you have to have more starkly contrasting physical types in comic books. It's much easier to tell apart similar looking people in TV/movies than it is in a 2D black and white drawing on a piece of paper, so they don't need to be quite so starkly different on TV.

I dug their intro though. It didn't feel overly comic booky to me or anything. You've got the essence of who they are, as well as key visual similarities (Rosita's car, hair, and bare stomach, Abraham's 'tash and vest, Eugene's mullet and radio, their truck).

Good to have more of Tara, as well. Alana Masterson (the actress who plays Tara) also seems like a nice, fun person on Talking Dead, so I hope she sticks around on the show - it'd certainly be a juicy dramatic choice having one of the invading army reluctantly be accepted into the group. I wonder what's happened to Lilly ... is she alive? Is she dead, consumed by grief over her daughter's death and then attacked by walkers? Stumbling around the woods in a catatonic state? Hmmm ... I think Tara could be a more interesting character in the long-run, rather than Lilly, who is perhaps more interesting and important in the short-term associated directly with The Governor.

[sandrock74]

Good to have more of Tara, as well. Alana Masterson (the actress who plays Tara) also seems like a nice, fun person on Talking Dead, so I hope she sticks around on the show - it'd certainly be a juicy dramatic choice having one of the invading army reluctantly be accepted into the group. I wonder what's happened to Lilly ... is she alive? Is she dead, consumed by grief over her daughter's death and then attacked by walkers? Stumbling around the woods in a catatonic state? Hmmm ... I think Tara could be a more interesting character in the long-run, rather than Lilly, who is perhaps more interesting and important in the short-term associated directly with The Governor.

Tara told Glenn that her sister (Lilly) was surrounded by zombies and taken down. She said that Lilly had a gun but she didn't know why Lilly was there since she wasn't supposed to be. For better or worse, Lilly died off camera.

[Moon Knight]

I enjoyed it apart from daft people standing in the middle of a brawl with zombies instead of just running 20ft away to turn and fight them from one angle/front :)

Yeah, the show really does make non main group survivors look like real idiots. Like, really, they survived this long? haha

Also, as far as the bus, in the preview video that AMC has up, Steven Yeun (Glenn), mentions the bus being riddled with gunfire. I'm gonna assume some died in the process as you can clearly see bullet holes engraved into the bus.

[Morto Vivente]

After watching the episode again, IMO Beth voicing her hopes from several months earlier in her diary, contrasted against her and Daryl's flight from the prison sets up the entire episode perfectly.

During the epilogue of her mini story she's still clinging to hope, but it seems she's realizing that ironically, hope has it's limits.

When they discover the partial remains on the tracks, and Beth "cracks". I'm not sure what she believes at that precise moment? Does she fear that the partial remains are those of fellow survivors from her pre-prison group, or is she just distressed by the feeding walkers, and an "emotional train wreck"? She does seem to be looking for some clue as to the identity of the victims. Subsequently her last diary entry states that she believes "None of us are going to die."

Thoughts anyone?

[Moon Knight]

After watching the episode again, IMO Beth voicing her hopes from several months earlier in her diary, contrasted against her and Daryl's flight from the prison sets up the entire episode perfectly.

During the epilogue of her mini story she's still clinging to hope, but it seems she's realizing that ironically, hope has it's limits.

When they discover the partial remains on the tracks, and Beth "cracks". I'm not sure what she believes at that precise moment? Does she fear that the partial remains are those of fellow survivors from her pre-prison group, or is she just distressed by the feeding walkers, and an "emotional train wreck"? She does seem to be looking for some clue as to the identity of the victims. Subsequently her last diary entry states that she believes "None of us are going to die."

Thoughts anyone?

Concerning the remains, and I haven't read or heard anyone mention this before; Molly and Luke, upon first viewing and discovering they weren't with Tyreese, perhaps they were eaten? I mean, there was a child's shoe displayed. If not, what the hell happened to them?

[Rottedfreak]

Yup those were the kids from the prison.
Funny how the walkers can digest bones.

[Neil]

Yup those were the kids from the prison.
Funny how the walkers can digest bones.

Drag bits (limbs/lumps) off?

[Rottedfreak]

Watch the scene where they Daryl and Beth go to the tracks, they find three walkers eating organs and discarding clothes and three more adult bodies near them presumably they were some of the walkers Tyreese got BUT there were five walkers fighting those men and two more huddled over the kids bodies.
I wouldn't discount the possibility that the man took his sons body and buried it before turning but the three walkers that came and started to eat, ate those kids and the bodies of other walkers.

[MinionZombie]

Tara told Glenn that her sister (Lilly) was surrounded by zombies and taken down. She said that Lilly had a gun but she didn't know why Lilly was there since she wasn't supposed to be. For better or worse, Lilly died off camera.

Hmmm ... I must have missed that bit, I'll have to re-watch.

I too dug the diary entries being read in voice over as a contrast - their arrival at the prison versus their expulsion from it. Beth breaks down for numerous reasons - she's just watched her father be decapitated, for all she knows everyone else is dead and only her and Daryl made it, they come across that feeding frenzy (to be fair there are a lot of remains left over, and it's kind of hard to tell how many bones are in there ... but yes, bones is always a point of contention) and see the kid's shoe ... although I'm still unsure why that shoe is there. Yeah, is it a suggestion that the other kids (who were, at one time, side-by-side with Lizzie and Micah) got eaten ... Lizzie and Micah did split from those kids and took Judith with them (hence why Tyreese got stuck with them, hehe, he got the shittest end of the stick in the scattered group pairings :p:lol::p) ... so those other kids just ran off into the woods and got munched by walkers then?

[Rottedfreak]

Lizzie and Mika shot a few Woodbury soldiers in front of Tyreese, the other kids immediately ran off, my guess is they had a rally point where they left Judith but the other kids didn't stop there, instead they kept running and when Tyreese and the sisters got there they found Judith alone and ran in the direction he said they should go.

Yup the bones always bother me unless The Walking Dead introduces nocturnal bony super zombies that run, jump ten meters high and shed their skin and one attacks Rick who finds out it's Lori by it's clothes then it will always bother me.

Now then onto Terminus. my guess is it will be Atlanta where the group are lured by cannibals who have turned a section of the town into a death trap.

You know what I would want for the series? them to reach DC, see smoke rise and recieve no signals and for Rick to go "fuck it, let's stick to the road."

[Morto Vivente]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Lizze couldn't have dragged the corpses of Karen and David from their
cells to the small courtyard in order to burn them.

I suspect Carol discovered her in the act, or Lizzie actually told her "I'm not weak, look at my handy work" and Carol then covered for her, or alternatively they killed them together, or lastly, Carol did act alone.

[zombieparanoia]

I just rewatched the episode and wanted to say that I really appreciated the use of edged weapons in this epsiode, I know I've been bitching about that for a while. I was wondering why tyreese made the girls wait behind? I could see telling them to follow behind but to "wait here" seems like leaving them for bait as they know that there are walkers in the woods.

[Morto Vivente]

I just rewatched the episode and wanted to say that I really appreciated the use of edged weapons in this epsiode, I know I've been bitching about that for a while. I was wondering why tyreese made the girls wait behind? I could see telling them to follow behind but to "wait here" seems like leaving them for bait as they know that there are walkers in the woods.


I think Tyreese having realized the severity of his situation (after only one night with Judith), is so desperate that in retrospect he wrongly concludes that it's better to provide the girls with a plan and leave them close by in an area were there's no immediate threat, rather than lead them into a situation where he know's there's a definite walker presence. What he doesn't know are the odds he's about to face, i.e how many walkers versus how many survivors. He wants to see exactly what's going on. I got the feeling he doesn't trust himself to defend the girls and fight at his full potential so he makes a decision hoping to maximize the opportunity to save the other survivors, and secure what he believes to be everyone's best chance for survival; more adults who can fight.... The best defense against walkers. I think he deeply fears that the four of them are really on borrowed time.

[shootemindehead]

Good episode all round. But, it's a pity that the baby isn't brown bread, cos that story is going nowhere.

[Wyldwraith]

The only thing that's bothered me lately about melee weapon use:
When Rick buried that hatchet in the crown of the Walkers head, and him and Carl were arguing with Rick demanding Carl not shoot, and Carl shooting when it became obvious Rick was about to be munched....that hatchet had a wedge-type blade. I have no problem with it getting stuck in the skull, but the odds of it not penetrating deep enough to down the Walker were very poor IMO. Yes, on the one hand Rick is the walking wounded, and therefore much weaker than normal. On the other hand, however, close-quarters grappling with a Walker will DAMNED SURE get the adrenaline pumping. Had the conflict been more protracted I would've been a complete believer in Rick's already extremely depleted stamina giving out...similar to Glenn after that spurt of activity where he killed multiple Walkers and then passed out. As brief a clash as it was though, I strongly believe that adrenaline alone could've provided the necessary strength to bury the hatchet deep enough to do the deed.

If one just leaves it at that, it's nothing but a nitpick. However, had they tweaked the scene during the back-and-forth arguing over Carl not shooting so that Rick, with the last of his strength terminates the Walker and then "grays out" while trying to pull the hatchet from the downed Walker's skull I feel the scene would've held more meaning. Essentially saying "Yes, Carl's come a long, LONG way...but he's still quite young and still has much to learn from Rick. To be fair though, the writers did incorporate that subtext about Carl's development still having a long way to go before he's the "complete package" survivor with the scene where he lost his shoe to the Walker during his narrowest of escapes...yet I can't help feeling that had they written it so Rick turned out to be right by proving able to finish the Walker with the hatchet the scene where Carl made his narrow escape would've more deeply underscored the point about Carl a) Still having much to learn, and b) That his pronounced tendency to believe he's as capable as any of the adult survivors is Carl's Achilles heel.

All this aside, as I said before I really dug this episode. Since we're discussing the episode in detail however, I felt these were points that bore mentioning.

On other fronts, I agree with the theory that gunfire...errant or aimed at the bus was responsible for the slaughter that occurred within it. Given that a lot of those people weren't far from Death's doorstep to begin with due to the sickness at the Prison, even otherwise non-lethal gunshot trauma would've been fatal to most of those very physically depleted individuals. Given that streak of bullet holes in the bus's side would've been at about the height to strike anyone who was sitting up in a seat from the upper abdomen to the chest, and given that a lot of those people were slouched or sort of laying on the seats with their heads propped up (no doubt to help their breathing)....several of the bus occupants would likely have been struck in areas that would've rapidly proven fatal even for a healthy individual.

Or maybe we're looking at this backward. Perhaps the added stress of all hell breaking loose at the prison, coupled with the sudden moving of critically ill individuals resulted in 2-3 reanimations at approximately the same juncture and someone on the bus opened fire as the newly risen Walkers began attacking people...only to have something throw off his/her aim suddenly, such as the bus lurching to a stop or another Walker lunging out of one of the seats at the gun-wielder. There's no reason that streak of bullet holes couldn't be exit holes just as easily as entrance holes. That said, I'll concede the case for the bus being struck from outside is on the face of things a stronger one considering what was going down at the Prison as the bus pulled away. It does surprise me that NO ONE who was actually in the bus when it left the prison survived. A narrow bus aisle, probably congested at some point by one or more bodies should've proven at least a temporary impediment to any Walkers headed for the front of the bus. Coupled with the easy escape route of the bus's front doors it begs the question why no one survived long enough to pull the lever and open said door.

About the ID of the Karen/David killer: Just wanted to chime in and say I agree that Carol was the one who dragged the bodies outside and burned them, but VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE with the notion that Carol and Lizzie killed them TOGETHER. There is no way in HELL Carol would've exposed Lizzie to something like that willingly. It's possible Carol did it all, especially in light of the Talking Dead comments by McBride...but I still believe Lizzie did the killing as proof she wasn't "weak" to Carol. Again though, the longer the Carol/Tyreese/Lizzie/Micah survival situation goes on, the more irrelevant in practice the truth becomes, because sooner or later Tyreese is going to catch wise to the fact Lizzie is a sadistic sociopath. From there he's likely to draw his own conclusions...especially since he was aware of the Walker-luring with mice at the Prison fence, and was the one that discovered that mutilated animal pinned to a board in the bowels of the Prison. The pieces (IMHO) are likely to just fall into place for him like tumbling dominoes.

[blind2d]

THIS WAS A GOOD EPISODE. I used caps lock.

[Buzzbomb]

Wyld raised an interesting point a couple of pages back - If in TWD universe, walkers go passive & act as a deterrent/camouflage (as evidenced my Michone x2 and Andrea x1) - so why not claim a farm (or Prison) and create a perimeter of armless/jawless walkers tethered to the outer fence? That would create a perfect zombie barrier.

For me this this episode didn't work particulary well - the zombies were (as usual) excellent & I liked the fact that the guy that got bit / told Tyrese & co where the safe haven could be found later/earlier attacked Beth/Darryl - But the 2 later segments were dire.

I mean - Glen, comes 'round on the edge of a walkway which must have been hit by tank shell, without hardly a scratch? and then charges a group of zombies, which have previously demonstrated the ability to bite through denim trousers?

And then Walkers attracted by fire? (NTOLD anyone?)

Seriously? ...Where the **** did that truck with the 'A' Team materialise from?

The most annoying thing, however, was how all main characters have a John Wayne/Big Daddy anti-bullet, anti-zombie vibe - except the alcoholic medic guy... TWD is turning into a soap with zombies & I'm now more or less rooting for the 'Z's...

They need to kill more of the main characters off (at least in a major showdown such as the prison exit) & ditch the 'will they / won't they' reveals (Rick/pseudo Glenn).

I'm rooting for the zombies...

Buzzbomb

PS: Wyld - Tyresse doesn't know Carol did it. Rick and Darryl were about to tell him when the Governor lit the fireworks.

PSII: Lizzie wasting a bunch of edible rabbits? (was that a homage to Bill Monroe/The Monroe Brothers 'Feast Here Tonight (Rabbit In The Log)' song?? - sorry I'm a bluegrass nut)

[Rottedfreak]

Glenn wasn't on that walkway when it was hit, he likely collapsed there because of fatigue.

[Neil]

And then Walkers attracted by fire? (NTOLD anyone?)
I thought they were scared of fire generally?

[MinionZombie]

It is a nifty idea to surround a compound by jawless/armless walkers ... but at the same time, that's an awful lot of work, particularly if you want to have enough space to grow crops etc ... and it'll take a hell of a lot of work, a lot of tethering, and it'll either take absolutely sodding ages because there's not many walkers nearby, or it'll be suicidal if there's enough of them around because you'll just get swamped.

Abraham & Co were obviously driving through the area. There's going to be pockets of survivors criss-crossing all over the place, so stands to reason that at some point they're going to cross paths with them - we've seen groups cross paths before, so why not still?

Killing off a main character should be a big deal, it shouldn't just be killing them off just to kill someone off ... we need time with these characters, they need time to develop into something more than fodder with a vague personality (look at how much Carol has changed!), they need to stick around so that there's a chance of survival in this world, and then when they die it's a decided loss to the group and to the viewers ... otherwise it's just cheap, overly frequent, and of little consequence ... it'd just be a boring meat grinder. Besides, if they can all survive untouched for months on-end, but then all of a sudden within a couple of weeks/a month (the usual time-frame for a season's worth of episodes) a whole raft of them die, it's just a bit convenient. You also don't want to kill off too many people as each added death takes impact away from other deaths. There were plenty of deaths in the prison battle - Hershel, The Governor, Megan, a whole bunch of side characters ... that's plenty for several episodes worth of time.

[Neil]

Sorry, can someone explain to me why chopping off a jaw and two arms breaks the zombie's desire to attack you?

[Morto Vivente]

Killing off a main character should be a big deal, it shouldn't just be killing them off just to kill someone off ... we need time with these characters, they need time to develop into something more than fodder with a vague personality (look at how much Carol has changed!), they need to stick around so that there's a chance of survival in this world, and then when they die it's a decided loss to the group and to the viewers ... otherwise it's just cheap, overly frequent, and of little consequence ... it'd just be a boring meat grinder. Besides, if they can all survive untouched for months on-end, but then all of a sudden within a couple of weeks/a month (the usual time-frame for a season's worth of episodes) a whole raft of them die, it's just a bit convenient. You also don't want to kill off too many people as each added death takes impact away from other deaths. There were plenty of deaths in the prison battle - Hershel, The Governor, Megan, a whole bunch of side characters ... that's plenty for several episodes
worth of time.

With you there MZ. I was fine with Hershel's death, particularly at the hands of The Governor. The thought of Hershel trying to make it on foot....Hmmm. Alternatively, if Glen had turned on the bus, personally I would have been pissed off. The tension and horror concerning the situation, and Maggie having to put him down would have delivered, but in retrospect it just wouldn't have felt right. I remember last season people were griping about how there were no sudden deaths, which is a fair point concerning the nature of the ZA. IMO whether they work or not depends on what comes before. If Glen had been more involved in the plot running up to the Governor's final assault, rather than being used to heighten the impact of the prison epidemic, then personally I would have felt more comfortable if he had reanimated. What would you do with Maggie? Father and husband both gone in such a short time?

- - - Updated - - -


Sorry, can someone explain to me why chopping off a jaw and two arms breaks the zombie's desire to attack you?

The idea of using walkers as camo' is good in theory, but I've haven't been convinced that it translates in practice either.

[Andy]

Good episode all round. But, it's a pity that the baby isn't brown bread, cos that story is going nowhere.

Yeah really.. i was disappointed by that too, its a total tvland cop out!

[bassman]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one kind of disappointed Judith was alive. Even if I expected it because of the hints dropped at the end of the first half of the season.

HOWEVER, It would be really awesome if Judith falls victim to some of the upcoming events that comic fans will know. "Tainted meat!"

[AcesandEights]

Sorry, can someone explain to me why chopping off a jaw and two arms breaks the zombie's desire to attack you?

I have nothing definitive on this, however I suggest you go back a page or so and read Wyldwraith's excellent thoughts on that very question.


it's a pity that the baby isn't brown bread
What does whether she's breastfed have to do with anything? :confused: ;)



I'm glad I wasn't the only one kind of disappointed Judith was alive.

No worries there, Bass. The world is full of horrible people :p

- - - Updated - - -


Wyld raised an interesting point a couple of pages back - If in TWD universe, walkers go passive & act as a deterrent/camouflage (as evidenced my Michone x2 and Andrea x1) - so why not claim a farm (or Prison) and create a perimeter of armless/jawless walkers tethered to the outer fence? That would create a perfect zombie barrier.
Cool idea, in theory, but it sounds like a bitch to pull off. Would be cool to see someone having 'defanged' walkers staked at pathways and perimeters in some fashion going forward.


Glen, comes 'round on the edge of a walkway which must have been hit by tank shell, without hardly a scratch?
Nothing indicates Glenn was present when the damage happened to the walkway. Most likely it was a convenient place to climb to before he collapsed. Not sure how anyone is supposed to get the idea that he withstood a shot from a tank. That's going out of the way to make a heavily negative assumption, no?


and then charges a group of zombies, which have previously demonstrated the ability to bite through denim trousers?
Well, it's riot gear.


And then Walkers attracted by fire? (NTOLD anyone?)
Momentarily distracted by sudden noise, heat (if they can feel heat) and light? Doesn't seem too bad a stretch.


Seriously? ...Where the **** did that truck with the 'A' Team materialise from?
This was an odd one, but you have to figure Glenn and Tara(?) were preoccupied with the zombies and probably assume a lot of the vehicles in the road standing still are abandoned...so they didn't notice it till they stared right at it.


The most annoying thing, however, was how all main characters have a John Wayne/Big Daddy anti-bullet, anti-zombie vibe - except the alcoholic medic guy... TWD is turning into a soap with zombies & I'm now more or less rooting for the 'Z's...
Well, it's a long running series, not a one-off horror movie. Plus, they have definitely killed some major characters as the seasons have moved forward, they just tend to save a lot of the important characters for somewhat important deaths at pivotal junctures.

Also, Michonne totally got the Governor's stealth power-up when she katanaed him.


They need to kill more of the main characters off (at least in a major showdown such as the prison exit) & ditch the 'will they / won't they' reveals (Rick/pseudo Glenn).
Well, I'd imagine that the more new characters they bring in will free up more old characters to go out, but I'm also sure some will stick around for a bit.

[Neil]

I have nothing definitive on this, however I suggest you go back a page or so and read Wyldwraith's excellent thoughts on that very question.

Sorry, I must be being dim! Where is this comment?

[AcesandEights]

Sorry, I must be being dim! Where is this comment?

Sorry, most of his thoughts were from the previous episode thread. Some of these discussions really run together for me, especially after stacking viewings this last week.

From this thread it was more about the camo effect:


(BTW, if we're accepting the logic of the jawless/armless Walkers serving as active Walker camo...by extension then two listless/inactive jawless and armless Walkers standing passively at the ends of their tied-off leads like a horse that's been left at a hitching post SHOULD serve to keep other Walkers from going into hunting mode concerning the house Carl, Rick and Michonne are in. Sort of the reverse of the daisy-chain-herd effect. Ie: In "Walker Logic" other Walkers see those two Walkers in "Passive Standby Mode" and, barring any loud noises or eye-catching sights through a window or somesuch, other Walkers should consider the house devoid of prey. At least that seems to be the logical extension of Michonne's "Walker Camo Technique" IMO.

From last episodes thread Wyld touches more on the question you asked:

About the "Pet Zombie technique",
One thing we DO know from TS-(whatever # it was), the episode with Dr. Jenner showing reanimation moment by moment on the big screen and narrating what the group was seeing...is that the "R-Complex" reactivates first. HOWEVER, Jenner did NOT say the R-Complex reactivates undamaged/unaffected. Just first. The reason I make the distinction is scientists believe that bit of reptile jelly may have as much to do with the urge to screw as it does the urge to eat. Since we don't see sexualized Walkers, that bit must remain offline.

But ANYWAYS, my point in even mentioning the R-Complex. If the Walkers are indeed "Eat Motivated" on a primal neurological level then there's a case to be made for Walkers losing their active impetus if they completely lose the implements required for biting/ripping etc etc. No, I don't think it would be as fast as "Chop, chop, Slice the Jaw. Chop, chop, slice the jaw. Poof, instant undead marionettes." I would be MUCH happier with the phenomena if they depicted something like the Walkers mutilated in such fashion as sort of "spazzing out" for a minute or so as instinct fails to come to grips with their altered physical reality.

Second and last point is a two-parter. One, they let Michonne get away with it cuz Darabont obviously thought it was a cool idea at some point. Two, consider the logistics of a Jawless, Double-Amputee Walker still trying to attack someone. It would quite literally have people laughing hysterically in many cases, and that just wrecks the hell out of the show's atmosphere.

Last thing: If they wanted to do a better job of selling the Mutilated Pet Zombie mechanism, they'd show us some Walkers that whether by misadventure or simple advanced decomposition have been rendered structurally unable to hunt being equally apathetic about the presence of humans.

I DID enjoy zombies like the moss-covered half-zombie reminiscent of Bicycle Zombie from episode one. That was an excellent and very believable example of what would happen to a corpse in Central/South Georgia that was rendered immobile for a prolonged length of time. Little touches like that from last season help sell the entire Walker phenomena, at least IMHO.

[Neil]

^^ I see...

Yes, it would almost be worth seeing them trying to bite and feed.... failing and almost giving up and resigning themselves to not being able to do so. Hence them becoming docile...

[facestabber]

Sorry, can someone explain to me why chopping off a jaw and two arms breaks the zombie's desire to attack you?

I don't think it can be explained my friend. I accepted michonne's pets when she was first introduced but the immediate transformation of her second set was a tad much to suspend disbelief. The zombie rules of this show can be frustrating at times.

[Neil]

I don't think it can be explained my friend. I accepted michonne's pets when she was first introduced but the immediate transformation of her second set was a tad much to suspend disbelief. The zombie rules of this show can be frustrating at times.

Yes, if it had spent 1 minute or less showing how/why it would have added a nice bit of depth to the program...

[MinionZombie]

Yes, if it had spent 1 minute or less showing how/why it would have added a nice bit of depth to the program...

One minute might not sound like a lot, but in a script and in a final edit of a TV show or movie, one minute is pretty big. The 'hows and whys' of Michonne's pets weren't the purpose and point of 4x09 - the emotional devestation felt by Rick, Carl, and Michonne was the focus (and rightly so).

The point is made (Michonne needs new pets for camo, she gets them, she heads off, sorted), dwelling on the mechanics would only serve pernickety folks like us, and do absolutely nothing to move the story forward.

...

I seem to recall in the episode that there was a bend in that road - so you can only see so far ... plus, Glenn passes out, Tara has to deal with walkers, so she's not even paying attention to the road (just trying to not get eaten), and also - think about it - she's just been in a battle that featured several explosions nearby. The tank shooting off here and there, but most importantly, the grenade that goes off mere feet from Tara (who was hiding behind the tank, and shielded from the blast) - so her hearing will be all muffled.

As for 'zombie proof' survivors ... well, shit, if you've got this far into a zombie apocalypse (two years, essentially) then you've been doing something right, so you wouldn't be bumbling around the woods like a complete moron would you? :rolleyes:

[ProfessorChaos]

the negatives:

judith should be dead, count me in as one of those who wishes they'd gone the other way with that plot-line.

fire should not attract walkers.

glenn should've been too weak still to push through a crowd of about twenty walkers; healthy, sick, decked out in riot gear or not. dude was a pizza deliver guy, not an nfl lineman.

abraham looks like a pussy, and the reveal of him and his crew was hokey beyond belief. calling it now, his character will not translate well to the screen.

the positives:

they're making it easier and easier to hate the guts out of that little psycho kid, i really hope they kill her off very soon.

glenn dons the riot gear.

that's about it, these last two episodes have been rather "meh" in my book. and as for michonne and her decoys, i'd have gladly sacrificed a minute or five of carl's idiotic wanderings and horrid acting for a scene showing those armless and jawless walkers slowly realizing they were about as useless as andrea.

[Moon Knight]

the negatives:

judith should be dead, count me in as one of those who wishes they'd gone the other way with that plot-line.

fire should not attract walkers.

glenn should've been too weak still to push through a crowd of about twenty walkers; healthy, sick, decked out in riot gear or not. dude was a pizza deliver guy, not an nfl lineman.

abraham looks like a pussy, and the reveal of him and his crew was hokey beyond belief. calling it now, his character will not translate well to the screen.

the positives:

they're making it easier and easier to hate the guts out of that little psycho kid, i really hope they kill her off very soon.

glenn dons the riot gear.

that's about it, these last two episodes have been rather "meh" in my book. and as for michonne and her decoys, i'd have gladly sacrificed a minute or five of carl's idiotic wanderings and horrid acting for a scene showing those armless and jawless walkers slowly realizing they were about as useless as andrea.

From the looks of it, you're not really a fan of he show anymore. Shame.

[ProfessorChaos]

yeah, it's a love/hate thing but it's definitely shifted much more towards the "hate" side over the last two seasons.

[shootemindehead]

One minute might not sound like a lot, but in a script and in a final edit of a TV show or movie, one minute is pretty big. The 'hows and whys' of Michonne's pets weren't the purpose and point of 4x09 - the emotional devestation felt by Rick, Carl, and Michonne was the focus (and rightly so).

The point is made (Michonne needs new pets for camo, she gets them, she heads off, sorted), dwelling on the mechanics would only serve pernickety folks like us, and do absolutely nothing to move the story forward.


The thing is though, is that the pets thing is COMPLETELY unnecessary and ends up being another example of bad writing.

[Legion2213]

Regarding lopping off walker jaws and mitts...or "when bad zombies turn good". I really don't like this, walkers/zombies for me will always be "pure motorized instinct". :)

[MinionZombie]

I really don't like this, walkers/zombies for me will always be "pure motorized instinct". :)

But then what happens when their ability to carry out that pure motorised instinct is taken away from them? When there's no food nearby, or reason to go investigating a noise or whatever, they just stand around (e.g. the walkers in the shop in 3x01, or in the restaurant in 3x12), so I don't see it as any sort of stretch to imagine them as (relatively) docile when their ability to feed is disabled (but also remember that Michonne's pets started getting excited in 3x03, so she had to cut their heads off ... maybe new fresh meat nearby still gets them going).

[Wyldwraith]

Here's the thing,
Taking their cues from Romero, most mythos-creators in the Zombie Genre leave a lot of the nuts and bolts of their zombie phenomena unexplained in a definitive sense, choosing instead to go with the more organic-feeling passing around of possibilities/speculation by the Survivors. That said, whether we see it or not...there IS an objective nuts-and-bolts reasoning that I'd wager most creators of zombie material have in mind.

Yes, jaw removal and double amputation INSTANTLY rendering Walkers completely docile doesn't make much sense to me. The only reasoning for it that's supported by a (reasonably) sound theory based on Dr. Jenner's briefing on the Walker phenomena is that immediately after the Walker has its jaw/arms removed its very limited neurological activity is essentially "shocked"....and since Walkers only have two modes, Hunting and Standby...what we're initially seeing isn't a Walker that's suddenly become docile per se but rather one that goes inactive as instinct butts up against the impossibility of responding to said instinct.

I mean we know Walkers have at least a VERY basic "body awareness"....what I mean is that a Walker that's missing its right arm will turn towards a nearby human in an attempt to grasp them with its left hand. Ie: We don't see evidence of "Phantom Limb" phenomena amongst mutilated Walkers. Since on this most basic level the Walkers "understand" that if they don't have a right arm, they can't use their right arm to grasp and hold prey to feed on. The next increment of mutilation would be an armless (or possessing arms too damaged/decomposed to function) Walker still capable of biting. Such a Walker is all about lunging forward, jaws leading. (The closest example of this I could find was during Rick's dash from the tank after speaking to Glenn on the radio. One of the Walkers was a shorter female, sandwiched between two larger Walkers all approaching from Rick's left side, but forced into cramped confines as they negotiate their way between two derelict cars. Though completely out of range, this Walker still thrust its head forward and snapped at Rick as he raced by.)

Finally, we come to the all-important lower jaw. If a Walker's instinctive "body awareness" functions as we've seen examples of, then the loss of the jaw would...on some very basic level, register for the Walker. Their indifference to non-terminating wounds doesn't contradict this theory because, for example, a bullet striking a Walker in the chest in no way affects its ability to pursue the instinctive feeding drive.
So, if the loss of its capacity to bite registers....interacting in some way with the feeding drive, it's not completely inexplicable that a Walker would default to "Standby Mode" since its instinct has no physical vehicle to operate through.

All of this is complete supposition, of a fictional construct no less....but I don't think it's an unreasonable explanation for the docile mutilated Walkers.

That leaves only the camouflage aspect of the Docile Walkers...which, as many have already opined is probably nothing more than the daisy-chain effect of Walkers taking their cues from the most active Walker they can see. How does a herd end up heading north down the middle of a highway? One Walker on the side of the road saw a northbound car zip by a couple days earlier, so thus stimulated it starts plodding relentlessly after said car. As it passes Walkers in Standby Mode, they are in turn stimulated by the Walker which is pursuing the car in its dim hopeless fashion, and join the northward slog.

Now just invert the phenomena. A herd drifts into an area following the path of least resistance (like a road)...and comes to a place where several Walkers are in Standby Mode, standing around listlessly. In the absence of stimuli from the survivors concealed in the nearby house, there's nothing to stimulate the herd into moving towards the house. They can't think, but if they could the reasoning would be "If there was anything to eat in that house, those other Walkers would be clawing at the windows and doors to get in." So the herd either drifts right on by without a second glance, or it stops next to the mutilated Walkers and THOSE Walkers go into Standby Mode.

I can get this far with theory-crafting, but the wheels come off at the point where the presence of mutilated docile Walkers prevents "normal" Walkers from recognizing the human in their midst as food. From a distance, if the human was moving slowly with their tethered docile Walkers I could believe any Walkers seeing them just see another small group of non-food plodding onward. The story has Michonne take things beyond the realm of the believable by walking along in the midst of the herd. There's no comprehensible reason I can find that whatever mechanism makes Walkers attack live prey but not attack each other would stop functioning close-up like that.

So to summarize: I can buy Walkers becoming docile after precision mutilation. I can buy said Walkers acting as passive camouflage, for a house survivors are in.....and I can even buy a slow-moving human "blending in" with their docile Walkers from the PoV of any other Walkers at some distance. What I CAN'T buy, and have to just suspend my disbelief for is the close-up camouflaging. It doesn't make sense to me why a Walker three feet from a live human would be affected in any way by the presence of mutilated Walkers.

Actually, here's the best I can do to explain the close-up Walker camouflage: It's the same thing as a Lion not getting up and chasing down a human being who slowly and confidently walks right by it. Or a Great White Shark not going after a diver who faces it head-on in open water instead of fleeing. The target isn't acting like prey, so it isn't perceived as prey. The huge problem with this theory is that human-shaped organisms are not the natural prey of lions and sharks, but ARE the most common prey of Walkers. So this notion I can see people going either way on.


Just some thoughts from someone with too much time on their hands ;)

[facestabber]

You didn't let me down Wylde. You have some serious posting power. Great points.

[Trencher]

They did look a little cosplay, didn't they? It struck me right away. Forgivable, though. Hopefully it will work out in the end and the actors will pull it out.

Cosplay is a great word for it! That is exactly how it was.

As for the zombies being loosing their will to eat from being dejawed and disarmed I think its the rule of cool that is in effect here. Michonne looked cool in the comic when she entered the story with zombies in tow and she looked cool in the TV series when she entered the frame there as well. Its just the writers milking the concept, which is a shame imo.

[Morto Vivente]

So to summarize: I can buy Walkers becoming docile after precision mutilation. I can buy said Walkers acting as passive camouflage, for a house survivors are in.....and I can even buy a slow-moving human "blending in" with their docile Walkers from the PoV of any other Walkers at some distance. What I CAN'T buy, and have to just suspend my disbelief for is the close-up camouflaging. It doesn't make sense to me why a Walker three feet from a live human would be affected in any way by the presence of mutilated Walkers.

Actually, here's the best I can do to explain the close-up Walker camouflage: It's the same thing as a Lion not getting up and chasing down a human being who slowly and confidently walks right by it. Or a Great White Shark not going after a diver who faces it head-on in open water instead of fleeing. The target isn't acting like prey, so it isn't perceived as prey. The huge problem with this theory is that human-shaped organisms are not the natural prey of lions and sharks, but ARE the most common prey of Walkers. So this notion I can see people going either way on.


Just some thoughts from someone with too much time on their hands ;)

Excellent post Wylde. You've clarified the camo' concept for me by leaps and bounds. Using the technique to blend in among a troupe of walkers is still a tough one though, eh?

[Buzzbomb]

Glenn wasn't on that walkway when it was hit, he likely collapsed there because of fatigue.

I couldn't work out whether Glenn had been passed out for a while (overnight) or he was there momentarily - the CGI smoke gave me the impression that the blast was recent...

He looked pretty weak when he got off the bus to go search for Maggie, so either the smoke lasted a long time & he recovered overnight on the walkway... or he recovered in a miraculous short space of time - well enough to charge through a dozen or so walkers.

I'm looking forward to the next one though - I'd guess there'll be a class reunion of sorts.

- - - Updated - - -


...Killing off a main character should be a big deal, it shouldn't just be killing them off just to kill someone off ...

It's just comparing how things went down with the farm and the camp outside Atlanta, I'd have expected at least one main character to have been killed, either by the Governor's crew or in a slip up with the walkers - mainly because of the volume of extras' that are deemed to have been killed.

I'd have been satisfied with one senseless, unforeseen & unpredicable death (without the obligatory episode of character-centric dialog beforehand). For me it would have made it more shocking / horrific / believable.

For me one of the most powerful things about the original NOTLD is that normal rules of major cast survival are not adhered to.

[Neil]

For me one of the most powerful things about the original NOTLD is that normal rules of major cast survival are not adhered to.
Yes, they do feel a little "untouchable" in TWD at the moment!

[Andy]

Yes, they do feel a little "untouchable" in TWD at the moment!

Definately agree and it goes against the grain of the comic series its based on too.. Personally id love to see daryl bite it for this reason alone!

[Neil]

Definately agree and it goes against the grain of the comic series its based on too.. Personally id love to see daryl bite it for this reason alone!

Well, there's a good few episodes yet this season, so maybe we'll lose 1-2 of the leads!

[MinionZombie]

Did everyone suddenly forget about Hershel? MAJOR character death in 4x08 right there that shocked vast swathes of the audience ... likewise with The Governor - another MAJOR character, who had been around for a good long while, killed off in 4x08.

Some of you folks don't make a damn lick of sense to me. :confused:

The time between character deaths in the show and in the comic aren't different at all.

[Neil]

Did everyone suddenly forget about Hershel?
Who? :)

Yes, but the main characters have seemed too safe IMHO. Maybe it was the little oink just wondering around all cocky, and sleeping without a care next to his potentially dead dad last episode that's made me think this way. :)

[Andy]

Did everyone suddenly forget about Hershel? MAJOR character death in 4x08 right there that shocked vast swathes of the audience ... likewise with The Governor - another MAJOR character, who had been around for a good long while, killed off in 4x08.

Some of you folks don't make a damn lick of sense to me. :confused:

The time between character deaths in the show and in the comic aren't different at all.

The difference is that in the comics, it feels like nobody is safe which is the idea they went for and its well done.

In the TV show, certain characters, specifically Daryl, rick, glenn, michonne.. feel invincible at times to downright unrealistic levels, theres no sense of doom at all. Like whats happening right now, in the comics, rick really loses it and you feel like this might be him now after the prison, for a good long time it dosnt look like he will come back.. in the TV show, he spends one night on the sofa, gives carl abit of a fright then hes fine in the next scene.

Also majorly pissed off they brought carol back, she has already outstayed her welcome and i hope she bites it before the end of season 4.

[MinionZombie]

Well they can't very well spend episode after episode of just showing Rick crying on a sofa. The viewers would get rather pissed off with such a drag-assed pace - it just won't work in TV drama, and there's certain rules that one must abide by in order to craft an effective screenplay.

A longer passage of time works better in a comic - e.g. in Volume 9 where the events of 4x09 were mostly plucked from (e.g. two pages showing multiple day/night cycles) - but in the show you've got to account for all the other groups in such a manner that not only do they all link up and cross each other's paths, but that it makes enough sense to the viewer. In the comic most of them got back together pretty quickly with essentially just Rick and Carl going it alone for a while - this ain't the case in the show with multiple disparate groups.

As for 'feeling safe', in the comic the characters dodge hailstorms of bullets all the time and survive without a scratch, so I don't see any real difference between how it works in the comic and how it works in the show.

[Buzzbomb]

Well, it's riot gear.


The riot gear was taken from walkers... so it didn't protect the prison guards very well...

[Morto Vivente]

Couldn't the guards have been killed by human inmates as opposed to walkers?

[Trencher]

Or they could have been bitten several times while out of armour making them put the armour on. I always thought that the first wave of the zombie virus in this setting were airborne anyway it is just that someone are immune to the airborne version anyway. Its just a theory though I am not that sure of it.

[facestabber]

Or they could have been bitten several times while out of armour making them put the armour on. I always thought that the first wave of the zombie virus in this setting were airborne anyway it is just that someone are immune to the airborne version anyway. Its just a theory though I am not that sure of it.

That is actually a very solid theory. That scenario certainly makes it more plausible for a Zombie apocalypse to occur. I just dont see how bites could cause it to reach epidemic portions.

[Wyldwraith]

First, thanks Face & Others for the praise. Always nice to feel appreciated :)

Regarding Glenn and his breakout from the zombie pack while wearing the riot gear. Think back to that terrifying PoV shot showing what Glenn could see through the dingy visor of the riot helmet. If ever a human being was going to experience a surge of adrenaline/epinephrin that allowed them to exceed their current level of physical ability for a brief surge, THIS was that situation! Glenn is a veteran Survivor, he's seen numerous people torn apart and feasted upon while they were still screaming. Glenn KNEW deep in his guts that's what was going to happen to him if he couldn't break out of that mob of Walkers. So he put damned near everything he had into that breakout. Plus, let's remember it's only a scant few minutes later that Glenn collapses on the road while still in mortal danger...so we see him physically paying the Piper for pushing his extremely drained body that hard. As such I don't have a problem with the scene. I'll give you one more reason it could've worked out for Glenn as it did. Walkers are not team players. While they may all be focused on the same prey, it's X # of individuals trying to bring said prey (in this case Glenn) down, rather than a collective cooperating amongst themselves.

Plus, let's remember that quite some time has gone by at this juncture...and the setting is Southern Georgia. Walkers may well have some characteristic that slows natural decay, but environmental factors like heat and humidity would still take a toll over time. As would simple friction. With no cellular restoration occurring, the pursuit of Prey or even the much lower-key plodding along with a herd would, over time, contribute to physically breaking the Walkers' bodies. So I don't have a problem with a Survivor thrashing his way free of a small herd so long as they ALSO depict such a feat as physically taxing in the extreme. (Which they did.)

Not trying to tell people how they should feel about the episode, and/or this scene in particular, just offering my take as to why Glenn's escape isn't as outlandish as it might superficially appear.

[Morto Vivente]

I don't have a problem with a Survivor thrashing his way free of a small herd so long as they ALSO depict such a feat as physically taxing in the extreme. (Which they did.)

Not trying to tell people how they should feel about the episode, and/or this scene in particular, just offering my take as to why Glenn's escape isn't as outlandish as it might superficially appear.

Agreed. In the fight scene following the prison break, Glen is exhausted. I believe he runs into problems after he takes down his first walker, and if Tara hadn't been there, I suspect things would have gone differently.

I have to say, I do like Maggie's low-slung, Han Solo-esque pistol holster, it's just :cool:

[Publius]

That is actually a very solid theory. That scenario certainly makes it more plausible for a Zombie apocalypse to occur. I just dont see how bites could cause it to reach epidemic portions.

Same here. I've long thought that there must be something that dramatically elevates the mortality rate (besides people being attacked by resurrecting corpses) for things to get totally out of hand.

[Legion2213]

Agreed. In the fight scene following the prison break, Glen is exhausted. I believe he runs into problems after he takes down his first walker, and if Tara hadn't been there, I suspect things would have gone differently.

I have to say, I do like Maggie's low-slung, Han Solo-esque pistol holster, it's just :cool:

Pioneered by Carl "I made the kessel run less than 12 parsecs" Grimes... ;)

[Morto Vivente]

Pioneered by Carl "I made the kessel run less than 12 parsecs" Grimes... ;)

:lol::lol:

[JonOfTheShred]

First, thanks Face & Others for the praise. Always nice to feel appreciated :)

Regarding Glenn and his breakout from the zombie pack while wearing the riot gear. Think back to that terrifying PoV shot showing what Glenn could see through the dingy visor of the riot helmet. If ever a human being was going to experience a surge of adrenaline/epinephrin that allowed them to exceed their current level of physical ability for a brief surge, THIS was that situation! Glenn is a veteran Survivor, he's seen numerous people torn apart and feasted upon while they were still screaming. Glenn KNEW deep in his guts that's what was going to happen to him if he couldn't break out of that mob of Walkers. So he put damned near everything he had into that breakout. Plus, let's remember it's only a scant few minutes later that Glenn collapses on the road while still in mortal danger...so we see him physically paying the Piper for pushing his extremely drained body that hard. As such I don't have a problem with the scene. I'll give you one more reason it could've worked out for Glenn as it did. Walkers are not team players. While they may all be focused on the same prey, it's X # of individuals trying to bring said prey (in this case Glenn) down, rather than a collective cooperating amongst themselves.

Plus, let's remember that quite some time has gone by at this juncture...and the setting is Southern Georgia. Walkers may well have some characteristic that slows natural decay, but environmental factors like heat and humidity would still take a toll over time. As would simple friction. With no cellular restoration occurring, the pursuit of Prey or even the much lower-key plodding along with a herd would, over time, contribute to physically breaking the Walkers' bodies. So I don't have a problem with a Survivor thrashing his way free of a small herd so long as they ALSO depict such a feat as physically taxing in the extreme. (Which they did.)

Not trying to tell people how they should feel about the episode, and/or this scene in particular, just offering my take as to why Glenn's escape isn't as outlandish as it might superficially appear.

Good stuff there. I just enjoy the ride with this show and avoid being overly analytical, so that scene didn't bug me, but if I tried to justify it myself in my brain I hope I'd reach similar conclusions.

- Walkers are too stupid to work in synchronicity, maybe they are even a detriment to each other.
- Glenn has a surge of adrenaline and pays for it later. (I thought it was implied he took a shwill of that liquor too, a bit of liquid courage to facilitate his escape.)
- Walker rot...makes sense too, but it kind of conflicts with most walkers, who have seemingly been stronger this season. They're intentionally trying to "up" the threat level, what with the flu-virus zombies and a ton of zeds not getting taken down by multiple melees to the head (this has happened to Rick, Carl, Beth, Tyrese, Hershel, Daryl, Tara, and more.)