TWD 4x14 "The Grove" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 4x14 "The Grove" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


The Walking Dead Episode 414 – The Grove: ”As one group finds what may be an ideal shelter, another group comes to realize that the best protection comes from those around them.”

Written by: Scott M. Gimple
Directed by: Michael Satrazemis


We're all well aware of who Gimple is and his writing, so this should hopefully be another good one, and Satrazemis seems to be another new entry into the TWD directing fold.

[kidgloves]

15 & 16 are being directed by David Goyer and Michelle MacLaren respectively so it looks like they are saving the quality to the end.
Lots of 1st time directors this year and as long as they pair them up with a decent, proven writer, I don't mind.

[MinionZombie]

15 & 16 are being directed by David Goyer and Michelle MacLaren respectively so it looks like they are saving the quality to the end.
Lots of 1st time directors this year and as long as they pair them up with a decent, proven writer, I don't mind.

Interestingly, the director of 4x12 (the episode all about Daryl and Beth) has previously been an editor on the show. The episode itself left something to be desired (mostly down to the script, which felt too low on content, and lacking the same level of quality the rest of the season has provided), but it was interesting that he edited together all the Daryl & Beth scenes from the show so-far to get an 'exclusively D&B view on the show'.

Good to have Michelle McLaren coming back into the fold too, after she was too busy working on wrapping-up Breaking Bad with Gilligan & Co.

[AcesandEights]

Major Carol episode in the offing, that means a feisty Andy post is inbound.

[JonOfTheShred]

I've been waiting for that moment since they first introduced those two little girls. EVERYONE who read the comics...
Comics Spoilers:
knew they were gonna be Ben and Billy tie-ins. Strange how this happened to Tyreese and Carol, who were both dead by this point in the comic, whereas in the comic it was Andrea and Dale, who are both dead at this point in the show.

Seriously though, as far back as the Comic Con trailer for the first half of Season 4, I knew that "creepy little blonde girl" was gonna disembowel someone. It was almost too obvious.

[MoonSylver]

*Sad sigh* Probably had to see it coming, still didn't make it easier to take. Powerful episode. In a lot of ways it took on a more powerful resolution & connotations than it did in the comic TBH, because of the persons involved & the way it was handled, the depth of the story arc, etc. :(

[Publius]

Good episode, I'm pretty satisfied with how they tied up all of those loose ends. The smoking zombies were pretty cool, too.

[sandrock74]

Maybe its just because I spent the day with my two nieces, but I got really emotional towards the end of the episode. It was tough to sit thru (not in a bad way, but emotionally).

Wow.

[Moon Knight]

"Just look at the flowers, Hun."

As much as Lizzie needed to go, that scene was really emotional; just knowing what's coming and the girl being totally oblivious. Good stuff, man.

The look on Tyreese's face when they discovered Mika's dead body. Powerful.
The Walking Dead takes no prisoners and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[shootemindehead]

Great episode.

Just two more to go... :(

[ProfessorChaos]

yes, that was a much better episode than many of the recent ones. having read the comics, i had a strong hunch about the way things went down. kudos to amc for having the balls to have carol shoot that creepy little bitch. i was a bit perplexed as to why they would leave lizzie unsupervised, given that they'd been catching whiffs of just how rotten and fucked in the head she was. oh well, i'm satisfied with the end result, which is her death.

2 less crappy child actors on the show now....if they would only kill carl off, this season would be the best one yet.

[kidgloves]

2 less crappy child actors on the show now....if they would only kill carl off, this season would be the best one yet.

Not quite sure why people react to children actors like this. Bit strange if you ask me. These two have been quite good imho and you have to factor in the fact that child actors have very little life experience to draw on for their performance, especially at tv level.

Pretty good episode but telegraphed as usual with the "previously on" and knowledge of the comic doesn't help. I really wanted it to play out like it does in the comic.
Really missing Rick and Carl at this point which is a good sign for how the characters are being developed.
We need more Abraham and co.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, I thought the two kids did a good job myself. The girl playing Lizzie especially. That's not an easy role, even for an adult.

[AcesandEights]

Actually, I found the acting excellent all the way around this episode.

At times the kids may have seemed slightly stilted...just like all kids, who are still trying to figure out how to react to real world occurrences in a way that reconciles their emotional needs with the expectations of adults and peers...seem to do in real life.

Seriously, they did an excellent job!

[sandrock74]

I'll agree that the episode featured some fine acting all around; the kids did a great job too.

The only thing that "bothered" me about the episode was the fire they saw off in the distance. I think it's safe to assume it was from the hobo shack Daryl and Beth lit up, but the smoke seemed awfully....contained I guess it the word I'm looking for. Seems to me that should have been a full out forest fire. Seeing the burned up zombies, seemingly walking ahead of the fire seemed to support that, but then the fire just puts itself out later on? It's probably just me, but it seemed kind of weird. Also, the sighting of the fire is a cool way to illustrate how (reasonably) close everyone is to each other. It feels like each group is only just over the horizon point from the next group. So close yet so far...

[Moon Knight]

The kids were fine. Some people just have to have SOMETHING to complain about. I always say, if you don't like the show just stop watching. Much easier than complaining.

[MinionZombie]

*Sad sigh* Probably had to see it coming, still didn't make it easier to take. Powerful episode. In a lot of ways it took on a more powerful resolution & connotations than it did in the comic TBH, because of the persons involved & the way it was handled, the depth of the story arc, etc. :( :cry:


Yeh, I thought the two kids did a good job myself. The girl playing Lizzie especially. That's not an easy role, even for an adult.

A gut puncher of an episode. Andrew Lincoln had spoken of how in the last few episodes they really go far out there - and I figured this is what he was going to refer to.

Great acting all-round. I think the child actors on this show are damn good - I don't get the Carl hate at all - he's been great in season 3 and 4. Kids don't have the world figured out, hell, most adults don't either, so they're never going to have perfect clarity of vision in any given moment at the drop of a hat. They knew there was something iffy about Lizzie, but why would they be so inclined to think she'd kill her own sister so she could be resurrected? The look on their faces said it all. Amazing acting all round, but Melissa McBride owns the hell out of this episode - SUPERB stuff.

Nice to see the Lizzie/Carol/Karen & David/Tyreese plot thread tied up.

I also liked that the fire was close by - that Daryl and Beth had been relatively close by - and obviously this shows that in this back half of the season they're jumping back and forth in time, so it wouldn't surprise me that much is Daryl was getting beaten up downstairs - unseen by Rick - in the episode where we last saw Rick (4x11 IIRC). Burned walkers always look cool on-screen, but I was glad that this episode was mostly about the characters. Very satisfying meat to chew on.

...

ALSO - please remember that not everyone reads the comics, or has caught up with the comics yet - so when referring to plot elements from the comic, please wrap the details in spoiler tags (visit the forum FAQ to see how to do them if you don't know).

...

TWD 4x14 memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/creepy-lizzie-edition-walking-dead-4x14.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r4OWDH01pFs/UycPYCkckqI/AAAAAAAACzc/vDRP8yd_mcI/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Tyreese_Lizzie_I_Sp y_Psychopath_4x14_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-GQPagU1ye4I/UycPVG57WEI/AAAAAAAACzM/INmEYk8SvBM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Carol_Lizzie_Miss_M e_Polite_F_No_4x14_DeadShed.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UDOTHAvDtUA/UycPW6WzQ7I/AAAAAAAACzY/Fp36bH2M_MA/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Tyreese_Carol_Lizzi e_Judith_Tripping_Lunch_4x14_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ev01To8Ql4E/UycPVtRlnZI/AAAAAAAACzQ/IpcLu5VUV1o/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Carol_Lizzie_Flower s_Deer_Gun_WTF2_4x14_DeadShed.jpg

And...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-l9Wdn7Nb7j4/UycPVXMyHmI/AAAAAAAACzE/qgi0U_-frxc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_4_Meme_Daryl_Forever_Alone _4x13_DeadShed.jpg

:)

[Publius]

As much as Lizzie needed to go, that scene was really emotional; just knowing what's coming and the girl being totally oblivious. Good stuff, man.
I wonder how oblivious Lizzie was. Considering her posture and the way she was apologizing, I kinda think we saw Lizzie pretending to be oblivious and Carol pretending not to know Lizzie was pretending.

[MinionZombie]

I wonder how oblivious Lizzie was. Considering her posture and the way she was apologizing, I kinda think we saw Lizzie pretending to be oblivious and Carol pretending not to know Lizzie was pretending.

Ooh, yes, good reading of the scene there. I think that's possibly what was going on there.

A seriously good piece of drama right there. Sensitively handled too - we don't need to actually see the kids being killed - we just need to know and, really, it's more effective not seeing. Far more effective is the reactions on the faces of those discovering the death - or in the case of Carol - executing the child killer. Such a fucked up scene when you think about it all, and I have to say - more satisfying and meaty as a plot line in the TV show version.

This will definitely be one that lingers in the memory for a long time.

So, with just a couple of episodes left, 4x12 "Still" seems to have just been a relative blip (still good stuff in there, even some excellent stuff, but that episode in particular didn't have enough content to see out the running time, and the 'search for booze' quest felt lacking by comparison to far more arresting missions of purpose happening to other groups at the same time.

Nice use of music in this episode too, not only that creepy opening piece playing from an old LP, but the score too. After Carol shoots Lizzie - oof, a big old smack in the feels right there.

I also loved the close of the episode with those shots looking around the house, with the handful of lines of dialogue that went back over some of the key themes from this episode (and indeed, entire season). Those last 10 or 15 minutes of the episode is an example of TWD at it's very best.

[Legion2213]

Wow, where to start with this one? They raised the "Legion might just cry" bar up a notch with this episode, they really did.

First thing I'm gonna say is that these kids were not "crappy child actors" at all, especially the kid playing Lizzie. I think they were as good as you could expect and carried their roles well.

So many gut wrenching scenes in this episode, you could really see that Lizzie wasn't "born evil", she was horribly fucking disturbed and traumatised by the shitty messed up world she lived in, she was no less a victim of the end of the world than anybody else IMO.

Little Mica was trying to deal with it in a different way, a sweet kid at heart, looking after her sister. Absolutely shocked and upset at her death.

Carol's confession and Tyrese's reaction were just TV gold...this character has just elevated himself in my eyes from somebody I really wasn't too concerned about to a major person in this show...fucking respect big man...respect!

The final scene with Carol and Lizzie reminded me of the classic "Survivors" episode "law and order" where they (wrongly) executed the gentle retarded guy...the executioners were very upset at what they had to do, knowing that a killer had to be taken out as there no prisons anymore and exile could just see him kill somebody else in the future, but retaining enough humanity to be disgusted by what they had to do.

This could be the most emotional episode of TWD to date...they totally hit it out the park (to coin an American phrase)

The burned walkers looked brilliant!

[Publius]

Ooh, yes, good reading of the scene there. I think that's possibly what was going on there.
It reminded me of the end of Donnie Brasco, where "Lefty Two-Guns" Ruggiero gets summoned to a "meeting" after it's revealed that Brasco was an undercover FBI agent. He's driven to the meeting by a couple of other mob associates. Everyone knows he's going to get killed, but no one lets on that they know the purpose of the meeting. That was based on the real-life fate of "Sonny Black" Napolitano.

[Legion2213]

The "look at the flowers" thing.

Got the impression that this is something that was "learned" by Mica long before the outbreak...something that their parents (or child psychologist) taught. I think Lizzie may have had some problems from her "previous life" that just spiraled into full blown insanity after "the end". Mica also said that Lizzie had always been messed up.

Thoughts?

[Moon Knight]

I believe Lizzie was messed up prior to the ZA. With no medication or doctors there really wasn't any hope for her.

[Legion2213]

I believe Lizzie was messed up prior to the ZA. With no medication or doctors there really wasn't any hope for her.

Yeah, it looks that way from this episode. And medication aside, disturbed kid + dead people rising from the grave and eating other people is always going to have a bad result on the mentally unstable/disturbed.

It was really easy to hate on her when she was cutting on fluffy bunnies and being all creepy and stuff...but by the end of this episode I just felt really bad for her.

Great writing on this one.

[Moon Knight]

Yeah, it looks that way from this episode. And medication aside, disturbed kid + dead people rising from the grave and eating other people is always going to have a bad result on the mentally unstable/disturbed.

It was really easy to hate on her when she was cutting on fluffy bunnies and being all creepy and stuff...but by the end of this episode I just felt really bad for her.

Great writing on this one.

I agree. I wanted her gone; especially after the way she handled Judith, but hearing her cry and asking Carol not to be mad because she pointed the gun at her really disturbed me; in a good way.

For the record, her asking Carol not to be mad cause she pointed the gun instead of the fact that she killed her own little sister was downright fucked up.

Tyreese forgiving Carol was perfect. A true portrayal of his character.

Man, I loved this episode.

[MoonSylver]

I also loved the close of the episode with those shots looking around the house, with the handful of lines of dialogue that went back over some of the key themes from this episode (and indeed, entire season). Those last 10 or 15 minutes of the episode is an example of TWD at it's very best.

I was quite struck by that too. It was funny how quickly that had become "their" house, how they had fallen into a (dysfunctional) family pattern of sorts. It completly emphasized why they couldn't stay. That house was now completely haunted in the metaphorical sense. Just thinking about it gives me the creeps and makes me sad all at the same time.


The "look at the flowers" thing.

Got the impression that this is something that was "learned" by Mica long before the outbreak...something that their parents (or child psychologist) taught. I think Lizzie may have had some problems from her "previous life" that just spiraled into full blown insanity after "the end". Mica also said that Lizzie had always been messed up.

Thoughts?

The mentioned in TTD afterward that it was something that Carol & Mica had Lizzie do in their Dad's death scene in the prison. :(

[kidgloves]

The mentioned in TTD afterward that it was something that Carol & Mica had Lizzie do in their Dad's death scene in the prison. :(

Not sure but I think their dad might have said it rather than Carol.

[Neil]

Good episode, I'm pretty satisfied with how they tied up all of those loose ends. The smoking zombies were pretty cool, too.

Yep, fairly good episode. I enjoyed it!

But the smoking zombies annoyed me:-
1) They were still heavily smoking? Having been on fire numerous hours ago?
2) The girls ran well ahead of them, only for the zombies to magically catch up with them at the fence?

At first I thought it was going to be a huge horde, just like the wild life, heading away from the fire.

- - - Updated - - -


The final scene with Carol and Lizzie reminded me of the classic "Survivors" episode "law and order" where they (wrongly) executed the gentle retarded guy...the executioners were very upset at what they had to do, knowing that a killer had to be taken out as there no prisons anymore and exile could just see him kill somebody else in the future, but retaining enough humanity to be disgusted by what they had to do.
I recall that!

[zombieparanoia]

I thought it was pretty good. I thought Lizzy was played well by the actress but the character itself was always kind of a "why has noone else noticed this little girl is batshit crazy before?" The entire belief that the walkers are just different and want to help us change, wtf?

Just reminded me of this skit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1byycwl8qgc

I was surprised that carol survived to return but it's a shame because I've started liking her more which likely means she'll be killed soon.

[Neil]

I was surprised that carol survived to return but it's a shame because I've started liking her more which likely means she'll be killed soon.

You'd hear Andy cheering from miles away if that were too happen :)

[MinionZombie]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese?

[Neil]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese?

I think given what's happened, no reaction; The reason he kicked Carol out is now long gone and usurped by more recent/important events!

[Moon Knight]

So if Carol & Tyreese make it to Terminus with Judith and meet Rick and Carl (and Michonne) there - what do you think Rick's reaction would be to Carol's return and her being teamed up with Tyreese?

Once he see's Judith nothing else matters.

[AcesandEights]

Once he see's Judith nothing else matters.

^Yup.

So much has gone on that Carol's murders will not (or at least should not) be a priority.

[Wyldwraith]

First,
I want to affirm the general consensus that the child actors have done a superb job with some very heavy, very mature content. I really, REALLY don't get the Carl-hate in particular, especially the last Season & 1/2 or so. Yes, at FIRST Carl was sort of the "Wesley Crusher" of TWD. (Speaking of Seasons 1-2)...but even by the end of Season 2 the Carl character was really beginning to turn it around. Out of the entire cast, Carl is one of the most human-seeming, without straying into the realm of melodrama. His motivations are easily empathized with, and his actions are believable and very suitable to the environment the child has been growing up in.

Second, others have said pretty much all there is to say about the Lizzie execution, so I'll skip that and move on to giving my two bits about the question of Rick meeting up with Carol. Stripped of all other factors, two points make Rick's previous reasoning invalid. 1) With Tyreese having forgiven Carol, there's no threat of group fracture (assuming enough of them re-coalesce to call it a group)...and on a more pointed note, if the loved one of the victim is ok with Carol's presence, who is Rick to say different? Not like his decisions have been yielding positive results for a LONG TIME now. 2) Rick has Carol to thank, like it or not, for Judith still being alive. More than once actually. If he were to stubbornly dig in and stick with his "I dont want you around" schtick, he'd lose whatever respect from the others he still has. It's water under the bridge, that's that.

Regarding Terminus: It's strange how people are following the railroad tracks by walking straight down the middle of them, when Tyreese (for example) saw a group of survivors devoured the very first thing as he laid eyes on the train tracks. Yes, the tracks are a ready made path...but that cuts both ways since a path of least resistance like the train tracks would quite likely serve to funnel significant #'s of Walkers onto the tracks as well. I can understand why the survivors would take the risk...low food supplies mean you need to minimize burning calories wherever and whenever possible, I just wouldn't be surprised if I were this or that element of the scattered survivors from the prison and I came upon, or was come upon, by a large herd drifting along the tracks in either direction.

It's been a real roller-coaster ride this season-half. Though I actually liked the scene with Daryl and Beth at the moonshine shack a lot. As for the fire, it is cool how they've shown us from a viewer-perspective again and again how close each element of the group is to each other. If circumstances weren't pushing everyone to be so consistently mobile others would no doubt have reunited by now. The Terminus sign has actually served to keep them separated, because different group-splinters find the sign at different times, and then set out along the tracks. Without such impetus, it would be more likely that at least some of the group would've remained in the area looking for their comrades. I appreciate the irony, but I just wish that a bit more reunification had already happened. It's getting a bit cumbersome to have five groups running about. They've done a great job at keeping it interesting, but this model won't work indefinitely.

[facestabber]

Circumstances prevented me from viewing until now. Wow. Speechless. Home run from my Walking Dead family

[MinionZombie]

Interesting points Wyld, as thoughtful as ever. :)

Staying on the tracks might pose a danger in some regards, but in other regards it makes sense. You won't get turned around ass-backwards by a distraction elsewhere (and possibly, even though you're really close to the tracks, head in the wrong direction and move away from them), plus it's more even ground under your feet rather than yomping through the undulating ground of the woods on either side.

Also, walkers wouldn't recognise the train tracks. The skirmish that happened by the tracks could have happened anywhere just as easily ... it was really more of a coincidence that that happened by the tracks. If you think about it though, the tracks are quiet - no trains - so no noise, therefore no real reason to keep any walkers hanging around there. They'd just continue ambling on aimlessly, or search out a noise they'd heard nearby (e.g. a gunshot).

Humans on the other hand know what the tracks are and understand the sense in following them. They keep to the path and never get lost. Good to see, though, that Maggie/Bob/Sasha all camped off to the side somewhere within the treeline, while Ty & Co used a bridge for some form of cover - at the very least an identifiable "place" to stay.

Finally, it makes sense visually for them to stay on the tracks. It keeps the viewers locked-in to the 'tying in' nature of the tracks - it helps add a unity to these disparate groups, who, I'd strongly imagine, will be reunited by the end of the season. Perhaps not every single group, as Glenn & Co and Daryl/Beth remain somewhat up-in-the-air right now, but I'd imagine they'd all end up back together again. I don't imagine for one minute they'll keep this disparate groups thing going for much longer as it would get old.

Thus far it's been quite nice and has afforded us some good one-on-one time, in a way, with smaller groups. Everybody has been given a time to shine and a handful of significant moments. They've changed and grown and expressed themselves. They've grieved and thrashed out and re-grouped in their heads ... some/most of them anyway ... they're all on different schedules with that.

On Talking Dead there was an interesting comment relayed from Gimple about fire and walkers. With their deteriorating eyesight, they're attracted to the fire as it's light and movement - and, indeed, noise. Fresher walkers will have better senses than the older ones, but I thought that was interesting, and also speaks a little bit to how the walkers don't sense the world around them as we do - far from it, in just a very basic kind of way. Sound, light, movement.

...

A follow-up question to the Rick/Carol issue - when/if everyone regroups, what do you think the reactions of the other people will be? For instance Maggie (who knows about Carol's kills), and will they inform the others in the group who don't yet know about Carol's actions (e.g. Glenn and Daryl)? If they did tell these other characters - what would their likely reactions be, do you all think?

[facestabber]

Interesting points Wyld, as thoughtful as ever. :)

Staying on the tracks might pose a danger in some regards, but in other regards it makes sense. You won't get turned around ass-backwards by a distraction elsewhere (and possibly, even though you're really close to the tracks, head in the wrong direction and move away from them), plus it's more even ground under your feet rather than yomping through the undulating ground of the woods on either side.

Also, walkers wouldn't recognise the train tracks. The skirmish that happened by the tracks could have happened anywhere just as easily ... it was really more of a coincidence that that happened by the tracks. If you think about it though, the tracks are quiet - no trains - so no noise, therefore no real reason to keep any walkers hanging around there. They'd just continue ambling on aimlessly, or search out a noise they'd heard nearby (e.g. a gunshot).

Humans on the other hand know what the tracks are and understand the sense in following them. They keep to the path and never get lost. Good to see, though, that Maggie/Bob/Sasha all camped off to the side somewhere within the treeline, while Ty & Co used a bridge for some form of cover - at the very least an identifiable "place" to stay.

Finally, it makes sense visually for them to stay on the tracks. It keeps the viewers locked-in to the 'tying in' nature of the tracks - it helps add a unity to these disparate groups, who, I'd strongly imagine, will be reunited by the end of the season. Perhaps not every single group, as Glenn & Co and Daryl/Beth remain somewhat up-in-the-air right now, but I'd imagine they'd all end up back together again. I don't imagine for one minute they'll keep this disparate groups thing going for much longer as it would get old.

Thus far it's been quite nice and has afforded us some good one-on-one time, in a way, with smaller groups. Everybody has been given a time to shine and a handful of significant moments. They've changed and grown and expressed themselves. They've grieved and thrashed out and re-grouped in their heads ... some/most of them anyway ... they're all on different schedules with that.

On Talking Dead there was an interesting comment relayed from Gimple about fire and walkers. With their deteriorating eyesight, they're attracted to the fire as it's light and movement - and, indeed, noise. Fresher walkers will have better senses than the older ones, but I thought that was interesting, and also speaks a little bit to how the walkers don't sense the world around them as we do - far from it, in just a very basic kind of way. Sound, light, movement.

...

A follow-up question to the Rick/Carol issue - when/if everyone regroups, what do you think the reactions of the other people will be? For instance Maggie (who knows about Carol's kills), and will they inform the others in the group who don't yet know about Carol's actions (e.g. Glenn and Daryl)? If they did tell these other characters - what would their likely reactions be, do you all think?


Just to further Wylde's point about Rick Carol situation. I know our view points on Rick differ but I definitely agree that this is water under the bridge. But I think it becomes that from a different perspective. I dont believe Rick's position will change because of Tyrese forgiving Carol. I believe Rick, well everyone from the prison for that matter, have a new perspective on life after the prison collapse. Lets face it, everyone was becoming somewhat complacent and they began developing exclusivist attitudes toward outsiders(Not with bad intentions but self preservation). Knowing now how much worse it is outside the prison walls I firmly believe Rick will probably break down(obviously for Judith) but also an inner pain from his decision with Carol. I think he will hope Carol can forgive him. He has a history with Carol and Sophia and her abuse from Ed. The prison group was a family and I believe if reunited will be stronger than ever against the rest of society. There are not many friendly faces left in the world.

Minion Im pretty sure Daryl knows about Carol's actions. Didnt Rick tell him right before the Gov assaulted? But to your question I again feel that the prison group will be so elated to be reunited that the slate is wiped clean. The past is the past and its time to move forward as a family. I would like to see a scene similar to the quarry camp fire with members of team prison reminiscing about their lost members etc. Even a memorial. One of my favorite scenes was when Shane and Rick first recognized each other and then Carl screams, "dad". We have some potentially tear jerking reunions coming up.

[Buzzbomb]

Talk about cooking on gas...

An excellent episode! At first I thought the opening was another flashback, what with the wind-up gramophone & kettle on the stove. I liked how the opening scene was a preview of the mid show Lizzie meltdown & then kind of reprised when Carol & Tyresse left at the end.

Superb acting all 'round (especially Carol - though Michah. Lizzie & Tyrese all had their moments), great dialogue... it makes me not want to get too picky (deer not bothered by gunshot, a smoke plume that the characters decide is some distance away - yet walkers are still smouldering / teleporting)...

I'm still kinda gob-smacked how good this one was overall.

Glad to see people referencing the "Law & Order" episode of the original BBC 'Survivors' too. The nuance of that was different, but I think it'll have the same kind of impact.

A classic.

[zomtom]

Just watched this episode again. It's just as powerful and disturbing the second time around. I can't seem to stop thinking about this episode since it first aired. It really affected me. That's what you call GREAT television, in my opinion. The acting was really superb. Damned, I wish they would hand an Emmy to this show! My only objection is why in the hell would the two adults leave a baby with somebody who is clearly disturbed? I mean, Lizzie became seriously unhinged when Carol killed her "friend". If I was in Carol's shoes, there is no way in hell I would allow her to be with a baby unsupervised. As much as I dread the season ending, I'm looking forward to doing a marathon of the entire season.

[MinionZombie]

Carol and Tyreese didn't know Lizzie was that messed up though. It's a big leap to go from that to killing her own sister (and about to kill Judith), and neither of them saw her nearly suffocate Judith (not even Mika saw that and she was standing right behind her, back to back). Plus Mika had shown herself as being capable of taking down a walker, and in command of Lizzie ("look at the flowers and count one, two, three...")

The look on their faces confirms that they had absolutely no idea that Lizzie was capable of such an awful deed.

As for smouldering walkers - it's just a visual cue to help identify them to the viewer as freshly burned/charred walkers, so that there's no confusion about where they came from. It's obvious that they came from that fire, but not everyone would twig on that, so the smoke helps further sell that they've just been cooked ... plus it looks cool, and it also makes them look hotter, and I think it helps further sell the make-up work.

Facestabber - yes, good point, I'd forgotten that Rick had told Daryl just before the assault. Slipped my mind, so it did.

[Neil]

As for smouldering walkers - it's just a visual cue to help identify them to the viewer as freshly burned/charred walkers, so that there's no confusion about where they came from. It's obvious that they came from that fire, but not everyone would twig on that, so the smoke helps further sell that they've just been cooked ... plus it looks cool, and it also makes them look hotter, and I think it helps further sell the make-up work.
True, but it was pointless though...

The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire.

However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc.

[AcesandEights]

True, but it was pointless though...

The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire.

However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc.

Meh, doesn't really seem like a big exercise in pointlessness, to me. It was just a reason to get some varied zombie effects and make up in there (which looked great) and yet again underline proximity. Doesn't seem like much to get picky about, to me.

[MinionZombie]

True, but it was pointless though...

The moment I saw them break out of the woods I thought it was a beautiful scripting moment - just as the animals were heading away from the fire, so were the undead and here was a horde of them all unified in their movement by heading away from the fire.

However, as it was, it was just your typical group of half a dozen of them, which could have come from anywhere, for any reason. ie: There was no need for them to be "smoldering" etc.

Except that it isn't pointless - the reasons I laid out, surely, illustrate the point entirely.

Far better that, as in the episode, the walkers are coming from the burned down house that Daryl and Beth came across. Nice to see the close proximity, but with people initially wandering semi-directionless, and arriving at places at different times, they're just missing each other. They clearly didn't just come from anywhere - they came from that fire specifically - and they were freshly cooked, so why not have them smouldering a bit?

I don't know what the realities are for smouldering of burned bodies - indeed, sometimes the human body does things that are surprising and would seem made-up, but are actually true. Even if it's not quite possible/probable for them to be smouldering at this point (seemingly just a few hours after being burned), the reasons I laid out above more than give enough reason for the show makers to do it.

It would be interesting to know though, from a medical stand point, if that's possible though for bodies to smoulder like that (e.g. in war zones etc when a fire has broken out, or when a body has been discovered after a flash fire).

Either way, it's really not something to get heated over ... boom and indeed tish. ;)

...

EDIT:

http://forensicsciencecentral.co.uk/fireinvestigation.shtml

Smouldering
Not all types of fire produce flames. Smouldering is a form of flameless combustion which occurs at the surface of the material in cellulosic substances that can form a solid char. The presence of a smouldering fire is characterised by extremely localised burning and the production of thick, tarry smoke. The surface temperature can be linked to the colour of the smouldering. For example, dark red surfaces suggest a temperature of 500-600oC, whereas a white surface indicates temperatures in excess of 1400oC. The rate of propagation is dependent on the material burning and the amount of oxygen available. Only low concentrations of oxygen are required for smouldering combustion, but if sufficient oxygen is supplied, smouldering fires can then produce flames. Cigarettes are a common cause of smouldering fires when left in contact with upholstered furniture, for example.

Generally more to do with materials such as wood and such. Although I'd imagine this kind of thing is applicable to anything that can burn, including bodies?

[Neil]

Meh, doesn't really seem like a big exercise in pointlessness, to me. It was just a reason to get some varied zombie effects and make up in there (which looked great) and yet again underline proximity. Doesn't seem like much to get picky about, to me.

I wasn't so much getting picky about that, just the fact when I first saw them I thought it was down to a clever reason. ie: All the zombies in that areas were being forced out on-mass. I was expecting a huge horde for this clever reason, which then didn't happen :)

The only real nit-pick was them then teleporting right back behind the two girls who'd clearly run well ahead of them :)

[zombieparanoia]

Something they have been doing which sort of bothers me is when they dispatch a small group of walkers in a hail of gunfire. I know, ammunition conservation isn't on their minds when they're all panicky like they always are, but still they seem to default to "spray and pray" quite a bit. Especially in cases like the scene at the fence, the walkers are slow and they had retrieved mika from the one that was a threat so now there was barbed wire between the walkers and the group, take your time and save bullets.

I think part of it is that they portray characters as still getting really spooked by walkers when by this time they've been around them and surviving for almost a year(not sure on exact time) and some of them, like carol have been going it alone at times. Not that I think everyone should be frosty walker dispatching machines like michonne, but it seems weird sometimes that they are still so panicky about them.

[Moon Knight]

Something they have been doing which sort of bothers me is when they dispatch a small group of walkers in a hail of gunfire. I know, ammunition conservation isn't on their minds when they're all panicky like they always are, but still they seem to default to "spray and pray" quite a bit. Especially in cases like the scene at the fence, the walkers are slow and they had retrieved mika from the one that was a threat so now there was barbed wire between the walkers and the group, take your time and save bullets.

I think part of it is that they portray characters as still getting really spooked by walkers when by this time they've been around them and surviving for almost a year(not sure on exact time) and some of them, like carol have been going it alone at times. Not that I think everyone should be frosty walker dispatching machines like michonne, but it seems weird sometimes that they are still so panicky about them.

I understand what you mean but I really don't want the group members feeling comfortable in the zombie apocalypse. Once they lose that fear, the audience also loses interest.

[sandrock74]

Well, look at the people who were there with the guns: Tyreese, who isn't supposed to be good with a gun, two panicked young girls and Carol. I think their shooting went down as well as can be expected: each shot fired wasn't an automatic BOOM Headshot!

Also, I wouldn't count on barbed wire to be an effective barrier against hungry walkers.

[Legion2213]

To be honest, there where what...half a dozen of them...Tyreese took out scores of them back when he was all angry and stuff.

I suppose for "dramatic reasons" they still need a bit of gunplay...but if I am really honest, those walkers could have all been taken out with melee weapons without any sweat being broken.

[Wyldwraith]

This is a pet peeve of mine in the genre,
Take Savini's remake of Night as a perfect example. Zombies so slow, and with such unwieldy turning radii that (this is obviously after the period of psychological shock stemming from confronting the reality of the living dead) it becomes obvious a halfway fit individual could easily, if not terminate the zombie or zombies, but render them ineffective as pursuers. Both the Zombie Survival and Combat Guides get this element right. The "Circle-Strafe Technique" they describe would work CONSISTENTLY against a foe substantially slower than you. All you need is something like a length of solid pipe, then you circle faster than the zombie turns, and finally once you've got its back to you, you swing as hard as you can at the side of the zombie's knee. A zombie with a shattered kneecap couldn't catch a human being who got down on all fours and crawled away from it.

This comes up in TWD and various zombie movies quite a lot, where the protagonist is faced with say...a dozen zombies widely separate and at widely divergent distances from each other, approaching and then reaching the protagonist one or two at a time, with a 90-270 second interval until the next single or pair arrive. Couple this with the infuriating failure of characters depicted as world-wise zombie killing veterans of the apocalypse to COVER THEIR FOREARMS IN SOMETHING BITE-PROOF. I mean c'mon, in most climates a denim jacket with a few pieces of hard plastic sewn to the sleeves wouldn't be too arduous to wear. Protect the forearms, and you have an excellent defense against the rare zombie that manages to get you in a clinch.

One element that does the genre no favors is portraying zombies as being able to EASILY bite through materials a human couldn't bite through period. Does that mean I expect every survivor to run around in riot gear? Of course not! I saw a relatively B-Grade zombie movie with V. Rhames in it...characters were trying to get to a zombie-free Catalina Island. When they picked up a new guy, one of the very first things they did when opportunity allowed was to hit a sporting goods store and scavenge sports gear for items that make good bite-guards...like football shoulderpads. We should see more of this kind of rough but effective improvised "armor" from the characters depicted as having survived in worlds crawling with zombies for years, and less of the "Oh sure, the zombie can easily bite through that guy's blue jeans in one bite as smooth as if the victim was wearing shorts. Show me a zombie worrying his way through the material after having bitten down with a side-to-side tearing sort of motion. I don't mind a pain-insensitive cannibal corpse being able to pierce some blue jeans with its jagged broken teeth, but I am SICK TO DEATH of action shots that make it seem as if undeath has increased the zombie's bite force by 500%. The scene where Herschel was bitten that necessitated the amputation of his leg was a perfect example of this.

Riddle me this: If Zombies don't heal at all, and are insatiable consumers when human flesh is available, then why don't we EVER see a still-mobile zombie whose jaw muscles have literally been shredded to almost complete uselessness by the simple repeated act of ripping, tearing and chewing the flesh of their victims. Raw meat is rubbery and (with a few exceptions) nearly as tough as overcooked meat ironically. Yes, yes, I realize that this sort of reasoning is generally overlooked because the plot of this or that movie as written would be obstructed by such realistic elements....but tell me honestly you wouldn't like to see zombies that have been worn down to the point of complete ineffectiveness as predators interspersed amongst the zombies ready and able to get the job done....and NOT have it be some gratuitous mutilation shot, such as a zombie with its lower jaw completely gone. When is well-placed, reasonably interwoven into the plot, increased realism ever a bad thing in Survival Horror.

The same logic goes for survivors firing shot after shot into a zombie torso, and never, never, EVER even NICKING the spine. Yes, I GET IT, shooting them anywhere but the brainpan doesn't kill them....but once again every so often a bullet should navigate past or ricochet off bone to render the zombie a crawler.

[Legion2213]

A walker with "shredded jaw muscles" should still technically want to feed and be a pest (pure motorized instinct).

But as to your other point, a zombie with a severed spinal column should really be a head on a stick and just lie there chomping away, but offering no real threat. :)