TWD 5x01 "No Sanctuary" episode discussion (Season 5 Premiere)... **SPOILERS WITHIN**

[AcesandEights]

Really, MZ? Really?!

Someone is losing a step after their surgery.

Please keep all talk of episode 5x1 "No Sanctuary" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


The true motives of the Terminans come to light when Rick and the others end up in a vulnerable situation.

[facestabber]

Holy shit I am impressed. Best season open since season 1. Abso freaking lutely intense.

[MoonSylver]

Welcome back Walking Dead. Way to start the season with a bang. :D

[sandrock74]

Now THAT was an episode! Also, Snake Eyes, er, Morgan!

[facestabber]

Now THAT was an episode! Also, Snake Eyes, er, Morgan!

Amen for Morgan and quick shout out to Carol, who absolutely dominated. The way she handled that bitch, Mary was beautiful. The reaction from Morgan regarding the mark carved into the tree......was that the symbol he used in chalk to illustrate the destruction of Ricks house?

[sandrock74]

I thought he was tracking the X-Men? :shifty:

[zomtom]

An absolutely fantastic episode! Now I know why this is my favorite show. This episode was worth the six to seven months we had to wait for it. My dvr is calling. I HAVE to watch it again!!

[MinionZombie]

Aces - I know, right?! I just realised mid-episode that I'd forgotten to put up the thread for it, dangit! I'll be on point for next week though, mark my words! :D

Excellent season opener - really delivered with plenty of fist-in-the-air moments, awesome kills, general badassery from Rick, Carol, Tyreese (primarily) and everyone else ... super dark at times (wow, the Termites had a rough time of it, eh ... but that's no excuse - burn them all!!! :evil:)

Really got my jazzed for the new season. Pretty pumped up right now ... will have to let it settle in my mind for a couple of hours and then I'll lay out some more thoughts. Very happy with 5x01! :cool::thumbsup::)

[ProfessorChaos]

yes. that was the type of episode i wish there were more of.....a much better start than the last few seasons, i'd agree. although i still think rosita, eugene and abraham are almost too goofy for the established tone of the show, i am pretty optimistic about this season based on what we've seen from the premiere.

i also noticed that they changed the opening credits again, but i think i like this version the best so far.....those last few shots of the woods at sunset, the map, and that haunting image of the lone walker in the field (from the "eighteen miles out" episode) really work well with the music and actually made me glad TWD is back on, hopefully with this season more evenly paced and carefully laid out than the last couple seasons.

[kidgloves]

What an episode. That opening was chilling.
Badass Tyrese.
I wanna see Gareth get his throat slit. The SOB

[bassman]

Fantastic season premiere. Loved the brutality of it all and seeing Carol go into Arnold/Predator mode was pretty damn cool. Definitely stepped her character up a few notches and makes me think they may be grooming her to sort of take over the badass Andrea role from the comics. Seeing how they basically massacred Andrea for the show compared to the comic.

Loved, loved, LOVED the post-credits sequence. This show will definitely benefit from having more Morgan. For my money, and even with limited screen time, Lennie James has been the best actor on the show.

Of course we haven't seen the last of the cannibals. With the tagline for the season being "Hunt or be hunted", I imagine we'll be seeing a certain "tainted meat!" scene in the coming episodes.

Anywho....fantastic opener and hopefully the rest of the season will remain as strong. Between the back half of Season Four and this opening, maybe, just MAYBE, the show has finally found a solid showrunner to pick up where Darabont left off.

[AcesandEights]

Yeah, that was an incredible season opener! This is what I'd like to see a bit more of. Sure, we'll need episodes to set up story and frame opposition for the group, delve into some psychodrama, intro new characters now and then etc. etc., but damn they need to keep the prospect of personal horror, action and mayhem at hand with the risk of it errupting just bubbling under the surface.

Very well conceived and executed script.



Loved the brutality of it all and seeing Carol go into Arnold/Predator mode was pretty damn cool.
I was kind of wondering how much people might bitch about the use of the walker blood and gore element again. I know it rubbed some people the wrong way last time and I almost pictured Shootem or Ned groaning and smacking their foreheads as they watched that scene.


Aces - I know, right?! I just realised mid-episode that I'd forgotten to put up the thread for it, dangit!


Hey, even the Mona Lisa's falling apart.

[bassman]

I was kind of wondering how much people might bitch about the use of the walker blood and gore element again. I know it rubbed some people the wrong way last time and I almost pictured Shootem or Ned groaning and smacking their foreheads as they watched that scene.

I've always been of the opinion that the whole "smell" thing was just a theory and the characters were actually just moving along with the walkers because they weren't acting like panicking humans. Think of it as the scene leading to the Winchester in Shaun.

In the case of this episode, Carol was able to walk amongst the walkers because she wasn't acting human, but the smeared guts and mud were actually used to camouflage herself from the Terminans rather than the walkers.

[Legion2213]

That was some serious action. Carroll was awesome (propane walker kill FTW) and Rick delivers the most brutal shankings ever seen outside of a US super-max!

Backstory snippets to Terminus planting seeds of grudging sympathy (or at least some understanding) as to how they became what they are.

It's back...and verily, it is good! Still trying to absorb this episode...need to watch it again later. :)

Edit: I wondered what the Hell you folks were on about with all the Morgan chatter...they really shouldn't add final scenes AFTER the "coming next episode" blurb... :D

[facestabber]

Carol Peletier, what a transformation. She embodied the weak, defeated spirit of a human being at its lowest. Beaten down daily by Ed, both physically and mentally. And now we have a woman going solo to save the group, leaving a hulk of a man Tyrese, behind. Like a mother hen protecting her flock, she brought the hammer of justice down on the termites. I loved her interaction with that bitch Mary. She didnt take her shit or waste time negotiating, she put a round through her thigh and left her to face the death she deserved. That move put Carol over the top for badassery IMO. She is the jack of all trades and is beyond valuable to the group. And I am not going to admit my eyes dampining when Carol and Daryl reunited.

*A side note on Carol. Now I say this not to hate but just a funny observation. Melissa Mcbride looks unnatural holding and manipulating the rifle in the Mary scene. And actually the fight scene looked rather forced. Not saying Mcbride is a bad actress but its clear fighting and tactical stuff isnt in Mcbride's blood at all and its obvious. But I'm fine with it and accept Carol for the badass she is. And I much prefer her in this role compared to Andrea(sorry Minion).


On to Rick. Rick is my guy and always will be my guy. I see myself in his character that why I relate. Im gonna say something that should bring Wylde out of hiding........Shane was right. Hahahaha. There is no denying that Shane saw the world for what it was faster than the group. I had a hard time accepting his methods but his priority was protecting the group at all and any cost to outsiders. Rick has now become what Shane said he couldnt(not trying to plagerize Talking Dead here) but its the truth. Maybe Rick has even one upped Shane with his idea to line the fence and pick off the Termites as they "dont deserve to live". I think Shane would have been along the belief with Abraham, they escaped lets GTFO and not risk our people. In the name of survival of the group the best course of action probably would be to flee but I like Rick's train of thought. Those sick mother fuckers deserve to be wiped out.

[AcesandEights]

On to Rick. Rick is my guy and always will be my guy. I see myself in his character that why I relate. Im gonna say something that should bring Wylde out of hiding........Shane was right. Hahahaha. There is no denying that Shane saw the world for what it was faster than the group.

Nah, Shane's escalation was out of order with his surroundings. Some may say he was "ahead of his time", but the reality is that he was only ahead in so much as racing past the point of no return. With little reluctance to murder to further very selfish ambitions, or out of fear, Shane's parallel to Rick so far is weak at best. In fact, Shane has more in common with several of the worst cases we've seen...all of them had "excuses".

[Legion2213]

Nah, Shane's escalation was out of order with his surroundings. Some may say he was "ahead of his time", but the reality is that he was only ahead in so much as racing past the point of no return. With little reluctance to murder to further very selfish ambitions, or out of fear, Shane's parallel to Rick so far is weak at best. In fact, Shane has more in common with several of the worst cases we've seen...all of them had "excuses".

Aye, if Shane had been exiled or run off, he would probably have fitted in well at Terminus...the guy was warped.

Turn your back on Shane or the Governor in the world of TWD and it would be your last mistake...both were prone to killing without thinking or much remorse.

Oh, and do we think Tyrese beat that punk to death with his bare hands?

[AcesandEights]

Oh, and do we think Tyrese beat that punk to death with his bare hands?

Oh, yeah.

Don't get Tyrese angry about having to kill people to survive...or he might just kill your ass.

[MinionZombie]

Aye - as Bassman has said, I think part of the reason for Carol 'walker-ing up' was to disguise herself from the Termites just as much as the walkers. It's a slightly iffy rule, but it's been established enough that is got a solid enough grounding ... even if it is a bit iffy as a concept.

Something I noticed - the guy who Glenn releases from the container has drawings/tattoos on his face, one of which is a circle with an "X" inside it, just like the ones Morgan seens carved into the trees. What's that about? Also, from the videos AMC posts online after each episode, they said that the guy Glenn releases is the same guy who (during the last Terminus flashback in the episode) comes to the train car and takes a girl for nefarious reasons.

As to whether Tyreese killed the guy in the cabin? We don't know for sure - we never see him dead - and in TWD land that's as good as saying the person is still alive and just unconscious. :sneaky:

And, as I always do (tagged them so they don't take up a ton of space all the time)...

TWD 5x01 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/10/tastes-like-chicken-edition-walking.html


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dhaiT_js0a0/VDv9Czi_0PI/AAAAAAAADQI/IcFKimakIcM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Rick_Gareth_Bob_Guns_Ba g_Eye_LOL_Joke_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-j42xqpAmBWA/VDv8_xmDoRI/AAAAAAAADP4/m7xJJE2hE0U/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Carol_Explosion_F_Yeah_ DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Tgj6ZM_4vWU/VDv9J2tOGyI/AAAAAAAADQY/jwCfYGjp6FY/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Rick_Watch_Borrowed_Thr oat_Slit_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-iS6xnkFphEs/VDv8_KNFMRI/AAAAAAAADPw/myTJ8if-fW4/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Carol_Daryl_Hug_Missed_ You_Crossbow_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-riQYnvQWklc/VDv9Fjn2ZaI/AAAAAAAADQQ/GUqPbpqm5u0/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Rick_Sign_No_Stuff_Than gs_Sanctuary_Terminus_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QFDIPEfwqFo/VDv9N16OZ7I/AAAAAAAADQg/oS0hstD8_sc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Terminus_Shopping_Mall_ Rick_Watch_Crossbow_Daryl_Pookie_Carol_DeadShed.jp g

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jwhLVqUlBEw/VDv9RGsyYBI/AAAAAAAADQo/_P_JbR4O5Tw/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Shed_Throat_Spike_Walke r_Excuse_Me_WTF_Doing_Maxin_Relaxin_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0jFsBiyRnI8/VDv9RK775aI/AAAAAAAADQs/fRdAB42MGX0/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Tyreese_Rick_Judith_Dia pers_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9KGcAPgYgNA/VDv8_bXcUCI/AAAAAAAADP0/kz-Yz9sFS_8/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Opening_Credits_Title_C handler_Riggs_Where%27s_Carl_Graffiti_Wall_DeadShe d.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oOkWFOKczqQ/VDv84y4W7fI/AAAAAAAADPo/iutIA_2Av2o/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_5x01_Meme_Carol_Terminus_Explosio n_Spicoli_Awesome_Totally_Awesome_Fast_Times_DeadS hed.jpg

[Legion2213]

Jesus. The still of that propane 'splosion is fucking ridiculous...I love you, Carol (especially when you are camoed up..ya kinda cute). :D

Oh, ghost of the governor...suh-weet! :thumbsup:

- - - Updated - - -


As to whether Tyreese killed the guy in the cabin? We don't know for sure - we never see him dead - and in TWD land that's as good as saying the person is still alive and just unconscious. :sneaky:

Legs busted up by the hammer of justice, hands tied, gagged and waiting to be found by a peckish walker...I hope. :D

Damn! it's sinking in even more...what a fantastic episode! :)

[ProfessorChaos]

so apparently i'm not the only one with this thought, but wouldn't it be too damn clever if, during the "then" sequence, the guy who told the captured terminite that no, things wouldn't be okay, then proceeded to bust one of them with a flashlight, was actually

negan?

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Walking-Dead-Season-5-Premiere-Was-Negan-67813.html

while i'm highly skeptical, it certainly could have been him, though like the article says, i really don't want them to hurry up and get the next big-bad. maybe introducing him right at the end of the season and revealing it was his gang that terrorized terminus before rick and his crew were led there....

re: eugene and the cure

man, i really don't like this plot-line at all, not sure if it's how corny rosita, abraham, and especially eugene with his mullet hair-do and asperger's ramblings come off (i think someone on this site even mentioned the word "cosplay" when discussing their appearence when they first appeared) or maybe something else, like how different the show even feels when they mention a "cure". i really hope they drop this whole "herp-derp let's go to WASHINGTON!!!!!" motive once eugene is exposed as the fraud he is......and i really hope they don't put that reveal off till the mid-season finale.

[Legion2213]

Regarding your 2nd point...I generally forget about that storyline about a second after it has been mentioned...it really doesn't grab me either, I'd prefer it if they'd just introduced that group as another road crew/survivor outfit. The only one worth having is the military guy, and even he isn't really very interesting.

is mullet-boys story really BS?

Edit: another random observation...Bob Stookie dual-wielding machete's...awesome!

[MinionZombie]

so apparently i'm not the only one with this thought, but wouldn't it be too damn clever if, during the "then" sequence, the guy who told the captured terminite that no, things wouldn't be okay, then proceeded to bust one of them with a flashlight, was actually

negan?

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Walking-Dead-Season-5-Premiere-Was-Negan-67813.html

while i'm highly skeptical, it certainly could have been him, though like the article says, i really don't want them to hurry up and get the next big-bad. maybe introducing him right at the end of the season and revealing it was his gang that terrorized terminus before rick and his crew were led there....

Gimple has spoken on this theory:

It's not Negan. Too soon for him anyway. Indeed, the guy who whacks Gareth with a torch inside the train car is the same guy as the crazy bearded dude Glenn lets go from that container ... although if they'd never said that in interviews I'd have never known it was the same geezer!

:)

[facestabber]

Nah, Shane's escalation was out of order with his surroundings. Some may say he was "ahead of his time", but the reality is that he was only ahead in so much as racing past the point of no return. With little reluctance to murder to further very selfish ambitions, or out of fear, Shane's parallel to Rick so far is weak at best. In fact, Shane has more in common with several of the worst cases we've seen...all of them had "excuses".

I hear ya. Shane was a mental case for sure. And I would not confuse the motives of Shane and Rick because they are different. Rick isnt just worried about self preservation but the love of his family and extended family. Shane was selfish and had an unhealthy affixiation on Lori. Shane only offered protection to others in the group, other than Lori/Carl, out of the coincidence that they were merely present. Shane wouldnt shed many tears for the majority of the group if they died but it would affect Rick because thats just who he is. Now Rick has evolved and is now opened up to the cold brutality that is needed to survive that Shane demonstrated. So I definitly see some parallel. Todays Rick wouldnt be concerned with rescuing Randle from that impalement. An innocent person, maybe but not a person that just shot at you.

[Wyldwraith]

Shane *WAS* right,
Civilization is gone, a fact underscored by everything we know about how people react psychologically in protracted disaster situations. What Shane was wrong about was as Facestabber said, his obsession with Lori. Which is what propelled him on the trajectory to try and kill Rick. But as for the world-at-large view Shane held? Spot on. Rick is finally "getting it"...and despite having no experience with the comics I believe the group will have cause in the future to regret rejecting Rick's plan to go back and wipe out what remained of those cannibalistic animals.

Carol's method of killing the woman was PERFECT. In her shoes I'd like to believe I'd do the same thing. That woman was part of a group that has committed unspeakable atrocities...they're spiders sitting at the center of their Web, Terminus, waiting for prey to be lured in by promises of what everyone in that world longs for. Death-by-bullet would have been too clean. She ate people, she deserved being devoured alive.

I felt NO sympathy for the Terminians. They used the depravity of others as an excuse to abandon their own humanity completely. Had they retaken Terminus and then posted No Trespassing on Pain of Death signs throughout their territory, the story would be completely different. The guy that forced Tyreese outside with the Walkers by threatening to snap Judith's neck emphasizes just how far gone, and unrepentantly so, the Terminians are.

Looking out for you and yours first, last and always? Totally justified. Using looking out for your own as a justification to perpetrate the horrors the Terminians have is perverse and fundamentally wrong. As I said, had they become vehemently xenophobic and done everything they could to keep from interacting with other survivors, THAT would have been an understandable and even moral stance.

Using hope as a weapon in a world almost completely devoid of hope is monstrous, and I believe every single Terminian deserves to die for that alone. That's without even touching on how they've taken to cannibalism with such abandon. Gareth is evil, through and through.

Like many others I really enjoyed seeing Carol ride to the rescue of the group...and it was rather poetic that she used the means by which they lost the Prison to bring death to Terminus. If you showed me ten year olds belonging to Terminians being eaten I wouldn't think twice. The moral rot of the Terminus inhabitants is so all-encompassing that the only sane response to it is to kill all those who have allowed such rot to corrupt their hearts and minds. Some might say "They're kids, they're innocent." To which I would reply look at the Terminus motto. Those people are indoctrinated...probably as early as they can understand such concepts.

The thing Shane had right was you don't put people you love/care about in danger because your old-world-morality says you should give the shady stranger the benefit of the doubt (for example). In the past Rick made many decisions that put numerous members of the group in harm's way so he could retain his moral code. As a leader others look to, one whose accepted said leadership has a responsibility to the safety of their group that outweighs other moral concerns.

Look at one of the last times the survivors as a whole took the moral high road. The Governor's 1st invasion of the Prison. Had they gunned down those invaders that would have included the Governor. With major # of Walkers coming for them, the invaders were forced into the open. Had the Governor died then Herschel would still be alive, hell MERLE would still be alive. They let the Governor live to fight another day, and it cost lives. A leader in a post-apocalyptic world doesn't have the LUXURY of morality beyond the good of their group. If someone new comes along and wants to join, if they're thoroughly vetted and the group agrees let them join. Don't go out of your way to harm other humans (unless they've previously attacked you), but be ready to defend you and yours with extreme prejudice.

Shane was right, but in his case for the wrong reasons mainly. He understood that holding fast to old-world morality was denying the reality they inhabit. Still, he WAS right about many things. The reality is that the vast majority of survivors in a zombie apocalypse would be very clannish and uncaring towards outsiders at best, like the Terminus people at worst. Knowing so many people are going to throw away any semblance of morality once the social mechanisms that deter antisocial behavior are gone means bringing old-world morality to a post-apocalyptic encounter is the moral equivalent of bringing a knife to a gunfight.

[DayoftheZ]

Solid episode and there seems to be plenty of threats for our group now.

Gareth is clearly still about as are some termites, we have the gunshots that started the termites decline these could be a threat. We know Beth has been taken and that group could be a threat. Add this to the walkers and we have lots of bum clenching scares to come!!

Edit:- Judging by the plants growing on the "No Sanctuary" sign when Morgan gets there it would seem he is a good few weeks behind the group, perhaps opening him up to "doing a Carol" and saving them against a new threat.

[shootemindehead]

I've always been of the opinion that the whole "smell" thing was just a theory and the characters were actually just moving along with the walkers because they weren't acting like panicking humans.

Yeh, that's the way I have to take it.

Otherwise, I'd be hopping onto the first plane to Georgia and going ballistic.

[Morto Vivente]

Fantastic start to the season. Did anyone else recognize the first victim that had their throat slit (the young blonde guy Sam from 4x04, who Rick and Carol meet while scavenging).
The look of recognition between him and Rick was a nice touch.

[Neil]

Good episode! Love the brutality of the survivors being killed etc, although the perfect ordering of them at the trough was a tad annoying; The two guys "done" first were practically in red Star Trek tops :)

Also the most accurate firework in the world was a tad silly :)

But a great first episode!



I was kind of wondering how much people might bitch about the use of the walker blood and gore element again. I know it rubbed some people the wrong way last time and I almost pictured Shootem or Ned groaning and smacking their foreheads as they watched that scene.The only thing that bugged be was how she obviously had enough time to chuck in a quick shower and change of clothes before she met up with the group!

[Andy]

It occured to me watching this episode last night.. (possible comic spoiler ahead)

Does anybody else think Andrea and Carole have switched roles from their comic book characters? I mean like in the comics, andrea is badass and saves rick and the group several times where as carol is a lonely weak person who commits suicide becuase she feels rejected by the group.. In the TV carol has turned badass and saves rick and the group twice so far to my mind.. and Andrea was kidna the desperate loner rejected by the group who ultimately died for it.

[MinionZombie]

Neil - all Carol had to wash was her face and hair. She was wearing a smock/poncho that had all the guts on it. A nearby stream - get that mud out of your hair and off your face - bingo, just a quick spritz.

On the subject of Shane - he went too far, too fast, and for the wrong reasons. Rick may have made decisions that compromised the safety of the group and in a round about way led to some death, however those decisions were important to make. Shane just cut and run from his humanity at the drop of a hat (albeit after a desperate moment with a mind on keeping Carl alive). Rick on the other hand has always fought back against the moral decay, as have his fellow survivors (to various degrees and levels of compromise), but because of that they now have a good moral approximation for this awful world they're in. They're not monsters and think primarily of the survival of the group as a whole, but they're capable of being monsters to project themselves and their family ("family" by blood or by survival). Shane would have undoubtedly turned out like a Termite/Termian had he been with them at Terminus.

Gareth made that same sort of 'switch' to survive and has become a monster ... he's a clerk in a factory of institutionalised violence and cannibalism.

Aye - noticed the blonde guy from 4x04. Knew he wouldn't be around for long as he's now in Gotham, but it was good to have him in there for the recognition and to close that little gap in the story from many episodes prior. It's someone we know - who Rick knows - and they die in the blink of an eye. Obviously our guys had to survive, that's no way for them to go out, so it's a little bit of morbid fun to have that tension and last minute salvation - twice no less - for Glenn. Poor bugger must have been crapping himself!

DaytotheZ - I'll have to go back and check that last little bit. *runs off to check* Yep, you're right - there is more growth over the sign. Not loads, but some. I'm not sure what type of plant that is - I remember there being something called 'kudzu' on that mechanic's garage when Daryl, Tyreese, Michonne, and Bob went on a medicine run (which grows very fast apparently), so the amount of time that's passed might not be too long, but certainly a gap in time. Good spot there!

I wonder if those "X" marks in circles were there when Rick & Co walked through those same woods...

[shootemindehead]

Neil - all Carol had to wash was her face and hair. She was wearing a smock/poncho that had all the guts on it. A nearby stream - get that mud out of your hair and off your face - bingo, just a quick spritz.

This is partly why I hate the whole smell business. To neutralise the dead, all one has to do is issue each character with a plastic poncho smeared with guts. It's too easy (and dumber than a bag of bricks). If any of you have smelt death, you'll know that it's a stench that'll overpower any unwashed human with the greatest of ease. So, with that physical truism, a human with or without zombie guts attached could walk with the dead and still remain invisible if they refrain from freaking out.


On the subject of Shane - he went too far, too fast, and for the wrong reasons. Rick may have made decisions that compromised the safety of the group and in a round about way led to some death, however those decisions were important to make.

Rick's decisions may not always have been entirely successful, but his reasoning was generally sound and with a focus on the betterment of the whole group. Shane's decision making was based on what was best for him. It's Rick's altruism that makes his leadership important and his general trustworthiness that would keep people loyal.

The acid test for each character is whom you would have watching your back.

Rick wins that race every single time.[/quote]


Gareth made that same sort of 'switch' to survive and has become a monster ... he's a clerk in a factory of institutionalised violence and cannibalism.

I really liked the flashback to the Termites before Rick and Co arrive. Gareth is a great villain. Not a cliched monster, but an average bloke, who has been warped into the administrator of an appalling creation.

I'd actually like to see more of the Termites in this series.

[DayoftheZ]

It was an interesting group because as we saw from the Termite that Tyreese took out and the two dishing out justice with the baseball bat, they all have a similar outlook.

It looked like Gareth took a bullet but I am sure he is out there somewhere regrouping just so Rick can deal with him with efficiency.

Is it just me or was it a shame that we didn’t get to see Mary torn to shreds by the walkers. I know we saw the face bite / throat bite earlier but I would like to see more “Walker tear ups” in the series.

[Neil]

Neil - all Carol had to wash was her face and hair. She was wearing a smock/poncho that had all the guts on it. A nearby stream - get that mud out of your hair and off your face - bingo, just a quick spritz.
Yerp... Time to do hair and face is right up there on the important list when the $hit's hitting the fan like that. People potentially getting chowed on by zombies? Sorry, I need to do my face and hair! Hmmm... :)

[Moon Knight]

C'mon, guys, Rosita made wolverine claws! How cool is that?!

Great episode and everything I wanted to say has already been said. It's amazing this episode really had everything. From blood and guts, to Rambo like action, horror and suspense, to emotional tugs that I'm not afraid to admit I experienced.

Bravo.

[Andy]

So none of you like my little observation? well screw you all. im going to start my own zombie tv series based on a comic... with blackjack and hookers.

[AcesandEights]

So none of you like my little observation? well screw you all. im going to start my own zombie tv series based on a comic... with blackjack and hookers.

I assumed your post contained grousing over Carol and general butthurtedness (that's the technical term) over her still being a part of the cast :)

But yes, generally I agree with the point you made in spoilers, though I think it was a matter of the production staff writing themselves into various corners and not purposeful at the time.

[MoonSylver]

So none of you like my little observation? well screw you all. im going to start my own zombie tv series based on a comic... with blackjack and hookers.

You add whiskey & blow to that equation & I am SO down with that. :thumbsup::lol:

[Moon Knight]

So none of you like my little observation? well screw you all. im going to start my own zombie tv series based on a comic... with blackjack and hookers.

Actually, I had thought about that before. Makes perfect sense to have them switch roles at this point.

[Neil]

So none of you like my little observation? well screw you all. im going to start my own zombie tv series based on a comic... with blackjack and hookers.

I didn't dare read it due to your comic book spoiler warning...

[MinionZombie]

Yeah, I do agree there's been a switching of roles essentially.

Carol kicks arse in the TV show! Her character has had a hell of a journey and has had some of the most interesting developments. :cool:

[Wyldwraith]

Re: The discussion of Rick's morality as it pertains to his leadership and decision-making.

The problem with Rick until recently was that his decisions didn't just happen to lead to deaths now and again, as if they were bad breaks/bad luck. Many times his insistence on adhering as closely as possible to a pre-apocalyptic moral standard lead to FORESEEABLE casualties. Example: (As I've stated before) His decision to take Daryl, T-Dog and Glenn and go back for Merle. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have realized that stripping the camp of all but one of their primary combatants (Shane) would leave the group VERY vulnerable if trouble erupted while Rick & Co. were absent. Other than Ed and Amy (who died as a result of surprise attacks by Walkers) nearly all the casualties stemmed from the willy-nilly chaos that seized the group once they realized they were under attack. Rick and Daryl's presence could quite easily have become a point for the survivors to rally around and organize much sooner than actually happened.

Had Rick been focused on the group's well-being as a whole he probably would have still gone back into Atlanta, but it would've been to quickly secure the bag of guns he'd left behind and then GTFO. As it actually transpired, their search efforts for Merle took time....and that delay lead to a great many Walkers being stirred up. Which in turn lead to their needing to hatch a convoluted plan to secure the guns. A plan that lead directly to Glenn being kidnapped, and everything that transpired as a result of that kidnapping. Specifically: The extended delay before they worked things out with the Vatos gave Merle (or whoever stole their truck) the opportunity to leave them stranded, forcing them to return to the camp on foot. The tragic results of that sequence we all know too well. Yet the bottom line was this: Choosing to prioritize going back for Merle over the safety of the group as a whole created an easily foreseeable increase in danger to the group if a conflict erupted while Rick/Daryl/Glenn were absent.

Or how about the situation with Herschel's barn full of Walkers. Rick was in the process of playing ball Herschel's way, what with herding them via catchpole into the barn and all. The Walking Dead-oriented episode of Mythbusters established the FACT that if even 25% of the Walkers already in the barn (and realize Mythbusters test-barn was constructed of brand-new wood) started trying to force their way out of the barn in earnest the barn door wouldn't have held. Even if you leave real-world fact out of that story-situation, Shane was dead right that the barn full of Walkers comprised a clear and present danger to the group. Rick's choice to go along with Herschel's way of handling Walkers exposed the group to increased risk of attack WHEN (NOT if) the Walkers eventually either broke out, or overwhelmed those handling Walkers on catchpoles as they tried to put them in the barn.

These are just a couple examples of a long-running pattern of Rick's behavior. A leader who was honoring the trust their people put in them by following said leader simply wouldn't consistently make decisions that exposed their people to unnecessary perils. Upholding a pre-apocalyptic moral code ISN'T JUSTIFIABLE when adherence to that code endangers people you've accepted the responsibility of keeping safe. It sounds strange, but Rick's often altruistic decision-making was really quite selfish. Rick exposed his people numerous times to unnecessary danger so he could keep his conscience clean. That doesn't hold water for me. One of the sacrifices a true leader makes is the luxury of a clear conscience. Sometimes it's necessary to do something VERY WRONG for VERY RIGHT reasons.

That said, I'm already impressed by the growth of the Rick character this season towards something that rings far truer to the world they inhabit. FINALLY, Rick seems to have turned the corner of comprehension regarding what it really means to lead during the apocalypse.

Shane's motivations were very often wrong, but many of the actions he took for questionable reasons were right. Re: Sacrificing Otis: Shane got damned a lot for this particular act, but let's remember he offered to give Otis the bags and stay behind as a delaying action so Otis could return with the medical supplies. Otis didn't believe he'd be able to make it, and said as much. Shane had to choose between doing the moral thing and going down with Otis as they fought to the last to survive and perished, dooming Carl...or he could do what he did. Again, Shane's motivations were highly questionable, but his actions were quite rational in that setting.

Until now, Rick just didn't seem to comprehend that sometimes the sacrifice you make for the good of your people is an unclouded conscience. Some may disagree with me, but I maintain that if you consciously accept responsibility for the safety of people looking to you for leadership, their needs MUST outweigh your own needs. And again, that includes a leader's peace of mind.

I'm very interested to see how Rick will handle things moving forward now that he's stared into the abyss of inhuman evil that is Terminus. If the premier was anything to go by, we're going to soon see Rick making those moral sacrifices for the good of the group,...and the personal cost those sacrifices will exact from him. When the interplay of character behavior is just as interesting as the overarching story, a show is very much on the right track. Gimple deserves all the praise he's receiving IMHO.

[Trancelikestate]

Apparently this weeks easter egg was the crate from creepshow though it did not look aged enough or have enough blood. It could have looked way better. It might have actually been noticeable then.

[Andy]

Re: The discussion of Rick's morality as it pertains to his leadership and decision-making.

The problem with Rick until recently was that his decisions didn't just happen to lead to deaths now and again, as if they were bad breaks/bad luck. Many times his insistence on adhering as closely as possible to a pre-apocalyptic moral standard lead to FORESEEABLE casualties. Example: (As I've stated before) His decision to take Daryl, T-Dog and Glenn and go back for Merle. Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would have realized that stripping the camp of all but one of their primary combatants (Shane) would leave the group VERY vulnerable if trouble erupted while Rick & Co. were absent. Other than Ed and Amy (who died as a result of surprise attacks by Walkers) nearly all the casualties stemmed from the willy-nilly chaos that seized the group once they realized they were under attack. Rick and Daryl's presence could quite easily have become a point for the survivors to rally around and organize much sooner than actually happened.

Had Rick been focused on the group's well-being as a whole he probably would have still gone back into Atlanta, but it would've been to quickly secure the bag of guns he'd left behind and then GTFO. As it actually transpired, their search efforts for Merle took time....and that delay lead to a great many Walkers being stirred up. Which in turn lead to their needing to hatch a convoluted plan to secure the guns. A plan that lead directly to Glenn being kidnapped, and everything that transpired as a result of that kidnapping. Specifically: The extended delay before they worked things out with the Vatos gave Merle (or whoever stole their truck) the opportunity to leave them stranded, forcing them to return to the camp on foot. The tragic results of that sequence we all know too well. Yet the bottom line was this: Choosing to prioritize going back for Merle over the safety of the group as a whole created an easily foreseeable increase in danger to the group if a conflict erupted while Rick/Daryl/Glenn were absent.

Or how about the situation with Herschel's barn full of Walkers. Rick was in the process of playing ball Herschel's way, what with herding them via catchpole into the barn and all. The Walking Dead-oriented episode of Mythbusters established the FACT that if even 25% of the Walkers already in the barn (and realize Mythbusters test-barn was constructed of brand-new wood) started trying to force their way out of the barn in earnest the barn door wouldn't have held. Even if you leave real-world fact out of that story-situation, Shane was dead right that the barn full of Walkers comprised a clear and present danger to the group. Rick's choice to go along with Herschel's way of handling Walkers exposed the group to increased risk of attack WHEN (NOT if) the Walkers eventually either broke out, or overwhelmed those handling Walkers on catchpoles as they tried to put them in the barn.

These are just a couple examples of a long-running pattern of Rick's behavior. A leader who was honoring the trust their people put in them by following said leader simply wouldn't consistently make decisions that exposed their people to unnecessary perils. Upholding a pre-apocalyptic moral code ISN'T JUSTIFIABLE when adherence to that code endangers people you've accepted the responsibility of keeping safe. It sounds strange, but Rick's often altruistic decision-making was really quite selfish. Rick exposed his people numerous times to unnecessary danger so he could keep his conscience clean. That doesn't hold water for me. One of the sacrifices a true leader makes is the luxury of a clear conscience. Sometimes it's necessary to do something VERY WRONG for VERY RIGHT reasons.

That said, I'm already impressed by the growth of the Rick character this season towards something that rings far truer to the world they inhabit. FINALLY, Rick seems to have turned the corner of comprehension regarding what it really means to lead during the apocalypse.

Shane's motivations were very often wrong, but many of the actions he took for questionable reasons were right. Re: Sacrificing Otis: Shane got damned a lot for this particular act, but let's remember he offered to give Otis the bags and stay behind as a delaying action so Otis could return with the medical supplies. Otis didn't believe he'd be able to make it, and said as much. Shane had to choose between doing the moral thing and going down with Otis as they fought to the last to survive and perished, dooming Carl...or he could do what he did. Again, Shane's motivations were highly questionable, but his actions were quite rational in that setting.

Until now, Rick just didn't seem to comprehend that sometimes the sacrifice you make for the good of your people is an unclouded conscience. Some may disagree with me, but I maintain that if you consciously accept responsibility for the safety of people looking to you for leadership, their needs MUST outweigh your own needs. And again, that includes a leader's peace of mind.

I'm very interested to see how Rick will handle things moving forward now that he's stared into the abyss of inhuman evil that is Terminus. If the premier was anything to go by, we're going to soon see Rick making those moral sacrifices for the good of the group,...and the personal cost those sacrifices will exact from him. When the interplay of character behavior is just as interesting as the overarching story, a show is very much on the right track. Gimple deserves all the praise he's receiving IMHO.

Wyld, I genuinely mean this.. I look forward to your posts just as much as the episodes themselves. Always a pleasure to read!

Dont leave :)

[Staredge]

Also the most accurate firework in the world was a tad silly :)
With propane, it doesn't have to be accurate. In fact, had it hit the tank at the opening and went off, it might not have lit it up. Every gas has a particular mix of fuel/air that it burns at. Too much gas/not enough air, and you can put out a match with it. Now the fact that the tank wouldn't have exploded like that, well, that's a discussion we can have. (actually, having the spray light off like a flamethrower would have been pretty cool as well)


The only thing that bugged be was how she obviously had enough time to chuck in a quick shower and change of clothes before she met up with the group!

Good idea though. Coming in all zombie-ed up seems like a good way to get a bullet to the brainpan.

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks Andy :) Always nice to feel like one's efforts are appreciated.

This particular moral issue is one near and dear to my heart. In my own life I've had to do absolutely reprehensible things to protect one or more people I care(d) about, when the system failed to do so. Some of those things keep me up nights at times, but to this day I continue to feel justified in taking those actions.

To give you one example: What do you do when an individual has TWICE attempted to sexually assault a close friend, and said would-be rapist/stalker was the son of the County's Sheriff at that time? I tried to go over said Sheriff's head by contacting the city PD with proof of his collusion in concealing the crimes of his son...but somehow it was still all swept under the rug...and I was left with the roughly delivered message that if I kept making waves I wouldn't enjoy the consequences.

Is an evil act carried out for the best of reasons ever moral per se? Maybe not, but even in our non-apocalyptic real world there are extreme situations...circumstances where either the system completely fails, or an offender simply has the clout to circumvent said system where you're left with a choice. Concede defeat and allow the offender to run wild, regardless of consequences...or fight fire with fire. I know that many people simply aren't wired to be able to cross that moral Rubicon, but the fact remains there ARE times it needs to be crossed to protect the innocent.

Maybe it's an unconscious residue of my past, but I find moral ambiguities like the ones currently being explored in TWD endlessly fascinating.

[kidgloves]

Wyld, I genuinely mean this.. I look forward to your posts just as much as the episodes themselves. Always a pleasure to read!

Dont leave :)

What?
+1

[Wyldwraith]

So here's the question:

If you're Rick or a member of his group, having just been subjected to coming within a split-hair of being literally butchered for meat...do you let it go and try to get on with the business of surviving, trusting that the Terminus survivors have too much on their hands to concern themselves with retribution....or do you do as Rick recommended, and try to finish off the survivors so a) You don't have to look over your shoulder wondering if one day a smirking Gareth is going to be behind you, and b) So the Terminus monsters can't do this to anyone else ever again?

For me, I go with the middle course. Sneak back to the Terminus perimeter and do some more of what Carol did. Ie: Pick off any Terminus people who expose themselves, and then fade into the forest when either Walker attention or Terminus people's counterattack gets to be too hazardous. As far as I'm concerned, a) ALL the Terminus people are as I've stated before afflicted with a terminal moral decay, and b) Every one you pick off is one less to join Gareth's posse if and/or when he comes looking for payback.

Look at it like this: Rick killed ONE MEMBER of the group Daryl joined, and that group doggedly pursued him and his until they caught up with Rick and Co. Had Fortune failed to smile, that confrontation could well have been the end of Rick and Daryl, at the very least. Carol ripped to shreds the meticulously constructed ambush assembly-line Gareth and his cronies had created. It's not as if Gareth is going to say to himself "Well, we had it coming, so I can't blame them for tearing us up." No, in his and the rest of the Terminians minds' they were completely justified in what they'd done and intended continuing to do. That being the case, Gareth and his ilk are going to consider Rick & Co. the villains who destroyed their way of life. I just don't see how Gareth and the surviving Terminians would fail to try and seek revenge. A reality only compounded if they lose Terminus for good the way Rick & Co lost the Prison. In that eventuality what would Gareth and his cronies have left beside retribution?

For me, the point is this: Is it POSSIBLE Gareth and the other Terminus survivors will choose not to try to pursue Rick & Co? Absolutely, but that's not the point. The point is that it's JUST AS PROBABLE that they WILL seek revenge. Given this fact, the question becomes: "Are you willing to move on, knowing remorseless cannibals devoid of the slightest shred of humanity MIGHT be on your trail?"

Given all the other dangers the survivors have to negotiate daily, as far as I'm concerned Rick & Co. can't AFFORD to add Possibility of pursuit by enraged murderous cannibals to the list of dangers they have to face. Right now they know roughly where the Terminus people are. That won't remain true for long, especially if the Terminus survivors were already forced to abandon Terminus the way Rick & Co. had to abandon the Prison when it fell. Dealing with the omnipresent hazard of the Walkers is more than enough to contend with, but they also have to be on guard versus any other psychopaths like the ones Daryl hooked up with. If it was me I'd rather at least thin the herd of vengeful sociopaths before I moved on, because I couldn't justify leaving such a motivated enemy group at my back and the backs' of my family.

What do the rest of you think? Does the risk of returning to the Terminus perimeter to try and pick off anyone in the open outweigh the danger of leaving Gareth and a significant # of his cronies out there somewhere, plotting the Devil only knows what as payback?

Notice that it's not as if I'm advocating storming back into a Walker-filled Terminus to try and wipe them out. I just happen to agree with Rick in this case. If they got extremely lucky and managed to snipe Gareth, that would probably end the threat of revenge-motivated pursuit...or if they reduced the # of surviving henchmen below a certain critical density Gareth might well be too much of a coward to try and come after them. I see Gareth like the Governor in one respect: The danger he represents is what he can get the people under his influence to do. Take away those minions and I believe Gareth would unravel just like the Governor did until he chanced upon a new "flock."

I can see valid arguments for multiple courses of action, don't get me wrong. I'm just going by imagining myself in Rick's place and what my gut tells me. My perspective certainly isn't the only valid one, it's just the course I perceive as mitigating the most threat for the least risk.

Comments?

[AcesandEights]

Good question, Wyld.

I think a lot of what people would do depends on the available supplies and the state of the folks on hand. They don't have a base of operations for people to sortie out of or reconvene at, so splitting the group back up is probably a bad idea and they have a baby...so unecessary travel that is not to find secure transportation or a safe(ish) base of operations is probably a bad idea.




Wyld, I genuinely mean this.. I look forward to your posts just as much as the episodes themselves. Always a pleasure to read!

Dont leave :)
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/35xyux_zps4ad1c4f6.jpg

[Legion2213]

Wyld, the current problem for the group in regards to trying to take revenge (or survival measures) against the terminus goons is that they are down to bare bones again with regards to weapons and ammo.

No real choice but to move on for my money, I understand Ricks initial (and justifiable) desire to finish them, but they simply don't have the tools right now. If they had bins full of guns n ammo like they did back at the prison, (plus greater manpower and walls to fall back behind) I could've see Rick really pushing to finish the job that day...but he just seemed to accept that they couldn't do that there and then.

[AcesandEights]

Wyld, the current problem for the group in regards to trying to take revenge (or survival measures) against the terminus goons is that they are down to bare bones again with regards to weapons and ammo.

Also, there will be a desire to find Beth, and I figure they'd want to get on with that...though I don't think there's any way they can rule out her not having been at Terminus short of interrogating a Termian (Termite? Terminian? Terminusian?).

[Legion2213]

Also, there will be a desire to find Beth, and I figure they'd want to get on with that...though I don't think there's any way they can rule out her not having been at Terminus short of interrogating a Termian (Termite? Terminian? Terminusian?).

Gotta be "termites"

Wouldn't say no to a little nibble on Beth myself to be honest... :sneaky:

I expect she'll turn up eventually...and it will give us another group of bad guys for our heroes to mess up!

[MinionZombie]

Aye, good question Wyld.

I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally).

However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together.

You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down.

Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:
Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season.

The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link?

Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus?

Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future.

[Legion2213]

Aye, good question Wyld.

I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally).

However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together.

You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down.

Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:
Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season.

The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link?

Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus?

Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future.

Good point...humanity is on the run here, and these guys have probably butchered hundreds of survivors since they set up their little warped little community...at least people had an excuse in things like "the Road" when the only food around was longpig

[shootemindehead]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/35xyux_zps4ad1c4f6.jpg



:lol:


FFS!

[MoonSylver]

Aye, good question Wyld.

I agree with Rick - the Termites need to be snuffed out - they've gone fully overboard and are only a threat in this world (to Rick & Co, and to anyone generally).

However, they're in an iffy position ... their best chance was to snuff them out there and then, but they were scattered all over the place with little ammo and few weapons, and a herd was storming the Terminus compound, so you'd just as easily lose one or more of your own group while trying to track down the Termites in a totally unfamiliar setting. They have no base of operations, they need food, shelter, weapons and ammo (and transport), and they need to stick together.

You're right though - Gareth & Co are just as likely or unlikely to hunt them down, but I'd bet more on them hunting them down.

Comics Spoiler/Theory for Future Episodes:
Could remaining members of Terminus become the ragtag band of Hunters as-seen in the comics? When Morgan follows those carved circles with "X"'s in them that seems to be some time later, and Gimple has mentioned several times that they'll be 'playing with time' in this season.

The hairy bearded guy in the container, who was a captured former hostile who temporarily took over Terminus and subjected the women to all kinds of awfulness, had tattoos etched on his face, one of which was a "X" inside a circle. Is there a link?

Or will Gareth try and resurrect himself despite his heinous deeds after the fall of Terminus?

Had Team Rick been in a healthier position then absolutely - snuff those bastards out straight away - but it wasn't practical at that moment. In order to save everyone in the short term from the herd - and get them back on their feet to an extent - they've been forced to risk losing the remaining Termites, or crossing paths with them again in the future.

Pick them off, wait for the herd to move on, then replenish your stores of ammo with their's? Odds are they got a good bit stockpiled... ;)

As for da future I could see the remaining Termites becoming the group from the comics. I could also see "Beard-o X" being one of Negan's gang, & the X's marking their territory?

[rongravy]

Two things stonily crossed my mind reading through this page of threadnificence...
One: I got the impression Rick gave up all thoughts of revenge once he saw his baby girl alive again, and that it was time to get as far away from that clusterfudge as quickly as possible. He even said something to that extent, or did I imagine this?
Two: When Carol blew up that gas thangie, wouldn't the ginormous explosion it made bring every walker from here to kingdom come? I know there was already a herd that hit them before she actually blew it up, but the noise from that would bring even more, surely...
I mean, geez. Those ones followed Rick all the way from practically the beginning to the shot that took Walker Shane down. This time they did more than just ring the dinner bell, they blew it the heck up.
Just thoughts...

[AcesandEights]

Pick them off, wait for the herd to move on, then replenish your stores of ammo with their's? Odds are they got a good bit stockpiled... ;)

That's a damned good point, Moon.

Of course, a new problem that popped into my head about dealing with the Termians now is I don't think anyone has relevant numbers for the Termians; how many there were or still remain...so who knows what they'd have to deal with if they went after them?

Anyone recall if the numbers at Terminus ever hinted at towards the end of last season or this last episode?

[sandrock74]

It wasn't practical for Rick and the gang to chase the Termites around, trying to pick them off thru a herd of walkers. Everyone already stated the various reasons why.

Could any Terminus survivors come hunting after our heroes at some future date? It's possible, but they weren't trackers. They were luring people to them; I don't think it's very likely they could fight thru the zombies, escape and hunt after Rick and the gang thru the wilderness. Besides that, I would assume that Daryl or Abraham would probably think to do something to cover their tracks for a bit to throw off any potential followers.

[MoonSylver]

@ Ron: Yeah, once he saw Judith he had other things on his mind than revenge. Good point about more incoming.

@Aces: No idea on numbers.

@Sand: Just stand at the fence & pick them off. No need to follow them about. It would be difficult & impractical. Perhaps even un-doable really, but figured it was worth throwing out there anyway.

As noted though, really the lot of them just wanted to get out of there & as far away as possible most likely, after everything they'd been through.

[Wyldwraith]

My retort:
EVERYTHING you've ALL said is completely relevant and accurate, but you're failing to account for two HIGHLY RELEVANT factors:

1) Gareth isn't just organized, he's a PLANNER. Stop and consider the effort in dispersing manpower to DOZENS of railroad crossings, for MILES AND MILES from Terminus. Rick and Co. couldn't DROP RANDALL OFF without it turning into a CLUSTERFUCK! Anyone who has the manpower, resources and necessary transport and equipment to negotiate miles of Walker-infested roads (How ELSE are they going to travel, really? If someone says by train, I will track you down and beat you with the Stupid Stick (tm). ;)) has the wherewithal to pursue a small group if sufficiently motivated.

2) Most of the liabilities mentioned as making any attack on the Terminians non-feasible at this time would be the SAME LIABILITIES the group would be faced with if found in anything resembling their current condition.

After all, if anyone needs a reminder....ONE person with an automatic weapon can obliterate a clustered group of humans before said group has time to cry out, let alone react.

I don't think I need a 3) But here goes: Rick and Co. have to SLEEP. Do a Google on unsolved home invasions/homicides. There's one that chills me to the bone. TEN individuals, 4 adults 2 teens 4 children under 12 were slaughtered in a 3-story house WITH AN AXE! The KICKER? Not ONE of the victims showed any evidence whatsoever of even managing to OPEN THEIR EYES before they died. Think about that for a minute. REALLY think about it. Ten axe strokes, in a confined space, resulting in 10 kills and no one so much as managed to MOVE before dying. Not ONE SINGLE CRY.

That was ONE *Disorganized Psychopath's handiwork. Bets Mr. I Built a Human Spider-Web AKA Gareth can do better?

My 2 cents: (For me, your mileage may, as always, vary): The only thing more dangerous than single-minded cannibalistic corpses are SINGLEMINDED CANNIBALISTIC HUMANS. The one you may have to live with given there's hundreds of millions of them, the other will, if they don't die, be the death of you...eventually. For my money the only safe sociopath is a headshot sociopath.

All I'm saying.

[shootemindehead]

Pick them off, wait for the herd to move on, then replenish your stores of ammo with their's? Odds are they got a good bit stockpiled... ;)

Rick's group dosen't though and could easilly run out of metal before all of the Termites are dead. Team Rick (© Minionzombie 2014) doesn't know how many Termites there are and could run into some serious bother for the sake of revenge.

It would be better to keep going and consolidate your forces and concentrate on gathering more ammo, weapons, supplies and another place to live.


*Edit*

What Aces said...damn...bloody Aces.........

- - - Updated - - -


My 2 cents: (For me, your mileage may, as always, vary): The only thing more dangerous than single-minded cannibalistic corpses are SINGLEMINDED CANNIBALISTIC HUMANS. The one you may have to live with given there's hundreds of millions of them, the other will, if they don't die, be the death of you...eventually. For my money the only safe sociopath is a headshot sociopath.

All I'm saying.

But Rick and Co simply don't have the resources or, more importantly, the information necessary to effectively deal with a group (who are heavilly armed with automatic weapons) that they know virtually nothing about.

In fact, I could see you easilly criticising Rick if, indeed, he did lead his (small) group headlong into a battle, where the fog of war is almost complete and which would, inevitably, lead to more deaths among the group. Team Rick is now a group that is (quite probably) outnumbered and definitely outgunned by the Termites and positively outnumbered by the dead that are now running riot in Terminus and who are arbitrary in their attack.

While your point about a dead Gareth is valid, it would be absolutely reckless on huge scale for Team Rick to after the Termites.

In saying that, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the writers write that way!

:lol:

[Buzzbomb]

Why didn't Team Rick take the car at the hut? It would have provided some protection for at least some of the group (eg Judith).

[MinionZombie]

My retort:
EVERYTHING you've ALL said is completely relevant and accurate, but you're failing to account for two HIGHLY RELEVANT factors:

1) Gareth isn't just organized, he's a PLANNER. Stop and consider the effort in dispersing manpower to DOZENS of railroad crossings, for MILES AND MILES from Terminus. Rick and Co. couldn't DROP RANDALL OFF without it turning into a CLUSTERFUCK! Anyone who has the manpower, resources and necessary transport and equipment to negotiate miles of Walker-infested roads (How ELSE are they going to travel, really? If someone says by train, I will track you down and beat you with the Stupid Stick (tm). ;)) has the wherewithal to pursue a small group if sufficiently motivated.

2) Most of the liabilities mentioned as making any attack on the Terminians non-feasible at this time would be the SAME LIABILITIES the group would be faced with if found in anything resembling their current condition.

After all, if anyone needs a reminder....ONE person with an automatic weapon can obliterate a clustered group of humans before said group has time to cry out, let alone react.

To be fair with the Randall situation, that was in the first weeks/couple of months of the outbreak. Everyone was a newbie then. Team Rick are damn-near two years deep now. They're far more organised. The Randall situation was before they were forced off the farm and had to survive on the road for months constantly moving around.

Gareth is a planner and his ability to switch off his humanity is terrifying and speaks of his danger. However, it seems as if many of the Termites spent most of their time behind the fences and walls of Terminus - I'd be surprised if any of them had had to survive out in the wild like anyone on Team Rick has had to. Sure, they could get lucky and get the drop on them, but even if sleeping in the open, they'd have two or more guards on watch over everyone.


It would be better to keep going and consolidate your forces and concentrate on gathering more ammo, weapons, supplies and another place to live.

But Rick and Co simply don't have the resources or, more importantly, the information necessary to effectively deal with a group (who are heavilly armed with automatic weapons) that they know virtually nothing about.

While your point about a dead Gareth is valid, it would be absolutely reckless on huge scale for Team Rick to after the Termites.

Further to Shoot's comments: Team Rick have a couple of weapons on them, with limited ammo - they were down to wooden shivs and making nails out of ear-rings punched through a belt - they'd have been foolish to run into a walker herd to take on the remaining Termites. They don't know how many there are, how tooled up they are, and by the time they'd gone and got the bag of guns buried in the woods for all they know any remaining Termites would have fled. Now - yes - they could then track them with Daryl's skills, but even just in that time of getting some weapons from the buried bag, their chance of tracking any Termites down could have been lost. Had they gone earlier they could have caught up, but they'd have had no weapons - or knowledge of how tooled-up their enemy is. I'd imagine after fleeing Terminus they'd all be exhausted.

I absolutely agree that the Termites need to be snuffed out, but Team Rick were backed into a corner - tired, hungry, thirsty, hard-up for weapons or ammo, and only just reunited - they could just as easily harm themselves in such a weak position as anyone else. They desperately need a base of operations - a stock of supplies, weapons, ammo, shelter - from which to work and then lead a coordinated and thought-out hunt for the remaining Termites.


Team Rick (© Minionzombie 2014).

:lol::lol::lol:


Why didn't Team Rick take the car at the hut? It would have provided some protection for at least some of the group (eg Judith).

Even if they had, they'd only be able to drive as fast as those on foot could walk. They'd not want to split up. Also, the card would only be able to follow roads/tracks. On foot you can cut through the woods and go anywhere - plus you have no engine noise. Naturally, you could only fit in a few members of the group. Even if stationary you'd not be able to cram everyone in for shelter. It'd be too much hassle and eventually run out of petrol. Now - if they had a base of operations then yes, that car would be useful. Maybe they'll make a note of its location and return for it later?

[MoonSylver]

Team Rick (© Minionzombie 2014)

https://static.squarespace.com/static/51b3dc8ee4b051b96ceb10de/51ce6099e4b0d911b4489b79/51ce61e3e4b0d911b44a49d4/1364923261953/1000w/WalkingDeadMemes_5.png

:lol:

[Moon Knight]

Does anyone here truly believe Tyreese killed that Termite at the hut? Tyreese seems kinda out of it to me.

[rongravy]

Does anyone here truly believe Tyreese killed that Termite at the hut? Tyreese seems kinda out of it to me.
Didn't he say, "I had to." to Carol? I thought that pretty much summed it up to me.

[sandrock74]

Regardless of Rick and the gang not killing all the termites, they have nothing to fear from them for the foreseeable future. Terminus would need to be fixed up BIG TIME if any survivors want to keep living there. They don't know where Rick and crew are, but Rick and crew KNOW where Terminus is! The termites aren't dealing from a strong position now and wouldn't be for a long time to come (which I think the "oldness" of the No Sanctuary sign that we saw Morgan come across would insinuate).

By the way, how is no band using the name "Rick and the crew"??

[Wyldwraith]

Re: The Terminians and their experience or lack thereof beyond the walls of Terminus:

Again, Gareth & the other Terminians organized and dispersed teams capable of surviving the Walker-infested territories outside Terminus to dozens of railroad crossings, many miles from Terminus. To me, that speaks of proficiency in handling themselves in the "wilds" on at least the part of a % of the Terminians.

However, playing Devil's Advocate for a moment: It IS quite possible a significant % of the Terminians who were proficient in the skills necessary to travel through Walker-infested territory died as a result of Carol's attack. My reasoning being that those with said skills were almost certainly the primary defenders versus Walker incursions, and we know that a substantial # of Terminus inhabitants who were acting in the capacity of guards/defenders versus Walkers died due to Carol's attack. Not all, by any means, but PERHAPS enough of the martially-skilled Terminians perished that Gareth doesn't presently have enough of them to divert from protecting his neck and that of the other surviving Terminians.

You're right that the Fog of War is a huge liability at the present juncture. However, if one contends that said Fog of War is a critical liability preventing any attack on the Terminians at this juncture, one is by definition supporting the distinct POSSIBILITY that Terminus DOES still have the wherewithal to seek retribution against Rick & Co.

All that said, while I've been persuaded there are sound reasons preventing further aggression against Terminus at this juncture, I steadfastly maintain my conviction that Gareth and his ilk will be driven, for various reasons, to seek revenge against Rick & Co. It's a tough situation, no argument. I just can't get the fact that a far smaller, substantially more disorganized group of violently anti-social marauders pursued Rick, Michonne and Carl in what could easily be described as an obsessive manner for Rick killing ONE of their comrades out of my mind.

That's the problem with people who've gone feral. They have no higher goals, no intense emotional attachments....nothing in fact but the desire to keep breathing, take whatever they like and do to anyone unfortunate enough to cross their path whatever they like. When you've given up completely on life in favor of simple survival and the fulfillment of your basest urges, there's nothing holding you back from even potentially self-destructive behavior like obsessively pursuing people you perceive as having wronged you....And I contend that at such a level of devolution even the desire for self-preservation begins to break down.

And why not? For such people every day is nothing but a repetitive routine of survival, "brightened" only by the intermittent opportunities to tear down and destroy anyone who still has anything to live for. Coming face to face with people still living, not just surviving, may well elicit an unreasoning rage from such feral "people"....Being reminded of what they've given up making them desire to tear down those who remind them of the humanity they've sacrificed...as a sort of coping measure, if nothing else. To say nothing of the sad fact that some people perform evil acts for evil's sake. For spite, if you will.

No, I don't envy the survivors their current circumstances. Confronted with the pile of reasons they can't go after the Termites, but filled with the sinking feeling that failing to end them now means they will be confronting them again, and probably not at a time and place of their choosing.

- - - Updated - - -

Huh,
I put a lot of thought into my last response. Would've thought it would elicit at least one response. Ah well :(

I mean, what do you think of my psychological assessment of "feral humans" if nothing else? Could be wrong, but I'd thought that at least would prompt some discussion.

Comments?

[MinionZombie]

Interesting thoughts Wyld.

Although I would say that, for example, the Termites are very different from the Claimers. The former are, in their own screwed up way, very civilised - they have established their own civilisation with rules and order (as insane as they might be) ... the latter, on the other hand, were a marauding gang of thugs with nothing better to do than roam around and then hunt down Rick. They had nothing else to do and no real allegience to each other apart from strength in numbers ... their brotherhood was tenuous and vague at best.

The Termites might be more likely to just think to themselves "let's chalk that one up to experience and go on our own way and not risk our own lives 'cos these Team Rick mofo's a crazy!" ... ... naturally I doubt that'll happen, but it's a possibility if the universe of TWD wasn't a scripted show. If it was real life I think there'd be more chance of people accept defeat in the battle and letting the war slide to save their skin ... there'd still be plenty of chances for the opposite though.

[Legion2213]

Just a random musing...I'm surprised that Rick & Co have never sorted out a "fall back" position, just a house with some food, guns, and survival tools to fall back on if they lost the prison and got scattered (which they eventually did).

I remember the same thing happening in the BBC Survivors series, lot's of talk about setting up a rally point with some basic kit to fall back on but they never did it...and they also lost their base of operations and all their supplies at the end of the first season and ended up like Rick and the gang, but in far more brutal British winter conditions.

Wonder if the Termites had such a plan? It would make them a genuine danger if 24-48 hours after losing Terminus that they are largely regrouped, warm, fed, patched up and well armed again...

[MoonSylver]

Just a random musing...I'm surprised that Rick & Co have never sorted out a "fall back" position, just a house with some food, guns, and survival tools to fall back on if they lost the prison and got scattered (which they eventually did).

I remember the same thing happening in the BBC Survivors series, lot's of talk about setting up a rally point with some basic kit to fall back on but they never did it...and they also lost their base of operations and all their supplies at the end of the first season and ended up like Rick and the gang, but in far more brutal British winter conditions.

Wonder if the Termites had such a plan? It would make them a genuine danger if 24-48 hours after losing Terminus that they are largely regrouped, warm, fed, patched up and well armed again...

Oof. Ugly thought. Entirely possible too, considering how well organized they were & well thought out their plans were. Seeing as all of this was a "never again!" reaction to their previous plight, it could be entirely possible... :confused::shifty::eek:

[MinionZombie]

Good musing there, Legion!

I think with Team Prison they did actually have a plan, but once the shit hit the fan at the prison it was so chaotic that said plan just went straight out the window. They had their escape bus, but everybody got scattered and only some got on the bus etc - it was all a bit chaotic ... although they could have planned a bit better in some regards, had various 'go bags' or 'go packages' in various parts of the prison for survival purposes. I'd rather spend the time and effort of doing all that and not require it, than get distracted by other tasks and then really need it.

[Buzzbomb]

Apparently this weeks easter egg was the crate from creepshow though it did not look aged enough or have enough blood. It could have looked way better. It might have actually been noticeable then.

It appears just before Team Rick free the "we are all the same" guy in the container - thanks for mentioning it!

- - - Updated - - -


I remember the same thing happening in the BBC Survivors series, lot's of talk about setting up a rally point with some basic kit to fall back on but they never did it...and they also lost their base of operations and all their supplies at the end of the first season and ended up like Rick and the gang, but in far more brutal British winter conditions.

The BBC survivors, I think, just headed for Whitecross... and a nice cup of tea, but then not every settlement in that series was a threat to the main group.

I like the idea of the Termites having a 'Plan B'... efficiency & progress... and there's bound to be a re-match, otherwise Michone won't get her sword back.

[sandrock74]

I think we're all forgetting one important aspect of all this: how would any surviving termites even track our intrepid crew at this point??

[Wyldwraith]

For the record:

I, Wyld, called it PRECISELY. I KNEW the fact that since the Terminians had the wherewithal to deploy their Sanctuary For All signs at dozens of railroad crossings, many miles from Terminus meant that at least a significant % of them were accustomed to surviving beyond the walls and fences of Terminus for (at least) days at a time. Yet rather than beat a dead horse, I will simply reiterate a basic reality of post-apocalyptic life. Ie: The only safe sociopath is one with his/her brain matter (white matter, not merely gray) oozing from his/her shattered skull, or leaking spinal fluid into the ground from severe spinal damage. Finally, and this is a lesson for the real world as well, albeit one I hope no one here ever has to witness being put into practice, or put it into practice themselves. [b]NEVER, EVER underestimate the capabilities of a psychologically Organized killer or sociopath.

[blind2d]

Hey guys, sorry to enter the conversation on this ep so late, but it finally popped up on my FiOS, so just now was the soonest I could easily view it and holy crow! Carol! Tyrese! Glenn! (didn't actually do anything, but it's nice to see him back) Michonne! (double-spear stabbing was nice...) The baby! (The baby lives!) All the slimy characters of Terminus were appropriately so, I felt, even with the tragic backstory. Can't say I really sympathize. Did I already mention Carol? Carol! Man, everybody got a moment of badassery, which I thought was great, but Carol, guys... Wow. She really has come a long way. Super excited to see what comes next. Alright, back to sleep for me.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah - Carol - in many ways it was her episode. Melissa McBride rocked it. :cool: