Origins (film) - NotLD prequel by Cameron & George Romero

[Rancid Carcass]

Looks like we could be getting an official prequel to Night - we'll finally find out what caused it all, though I'm sure that won't stop the debates around here! :lol:

If you fancy getting involved they're looking for backers too: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/origins-the-next-generation-romero-zombie-film

I'm seriously thinking about throwing some cash at this... take a punt and become part of the legacy in some small way. :cool:

[Neil]

So you can spend $3000 on a signed script... and then they want to charge you another $20 for postage. Lol!

Not sure if the 1960s is a good idea with the budget implications, but I suspect I'll chuck some $ at this to help it along :)

[EvilNed]

I dont want an answer, so I'm not so sure sbout this.

Also. i do not like the idea of fans having a "vote". If fans vote for creative decisions, why do we need the director? Isn't his or her vision supposed to guide us, not the other way around?

[MoonSylver]

Hurm. Not sure how I feel about this. Visions of the 30th still haunt me. Hurm. :|

[MinionZombie]

Do we need the explanation cleared up? The actual reason for the zombies in GAR's flicks was never a concern or interest of mine.

:confused:

[Neil]

Do we need the explanation cleared up? The actual reason for the zombies in GAR's flicks was never a concern or interest of mine.

:confused:

I agree actually... Better left "unknown" IMHO!

[AcesandEights]

I read the "pitch" and it comes across as pretty sanctimonious, to me.

[MoonSylver]

Do we need the explanation cleared up? The actual reason for the zombies in GAR's flicks was never a concern or interest of mine.

:confused:


I agree actually... Better left "unknown" IMHO!


I read the "pitch" and it comes across as pretty sanctimonious, to me.

From the Indiegogo page:


Origins takes place in the Turmoil of the 1960's just shortly before "Night of the Living Dead", and explains how The 'Original' Romero Zombie was created.

In 1962, Dr. Ryan Cartwright was on the scientific and altruistic path to find a way for humans to sustain life in the event of M.A.D (Mutual Assured Destruction), a huge topic brought on by the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Little did he know that over the course of the next several years of his life, he would take a well-funded and military focused journey to the darkest corners of the world… as he creates the ultimate weapon for the government and a curse that will plague mankind for the rest of days.

:dead: Pass.

Is this the same son who came on a few years ago & ripped everyone a new a-hole for criticizing his tattoo shop or something? Hope he doesn't stop by & start yelling again...:lol:

No disrespect at all, I just think it's not a great idea & like the rest of y'all, better left mysterious.

[AcesandEights]

Is this the same son who came on a few years ago & ripped everyone a new a-hole for criticizing his tattoo shop or something? Hope he doesn't stop by & start yelling again...:lol:
I think it's a differet son. That was Andrew, this one seems to be G. Cameron Romero. Man, that was a fun thread, thankfully it didn't get really ugly. I just searched it up and literally laughed out loud re-reading Trin's post:

"Hey man, I asked for a bitchin' tattoo of a chick with a snake. WTF is this?"

"Ah, well, what you wanted isn't really what I had in mind. But this tattoo I gave you is commenting on society..."

:lol::moon:



No disrespect at all, I just think it's not a great idea & like the rest of y'all, better left mysterious.

Much agreed. But hey, if they make a great film I'll be happy for them, and hopefully enjoy it...I just don't know how likely that is given the Origin story direction, budget, GAR's recent track record and other factors. All these factors are things that can be overcome individually, but together it makes a tougher row to hoe.

[MoonSylver]

I think it's a differet son. That was Andrew, this one seems to be G. Cameron Romero..

Thanks. I could have looked, but I was lazy. :D

[Legion2213]

Do we need the explanation cleared up? The actual reason for the zombies in GAR's flicks was never a concern or interest of mine.

:confused:

Exactly.

NotLD aside, I loved the press conference at the start of Dawn 04 where there government reps answer to every question was "we don't know"...it's exactly how a zombie apocalypse should be (seeing as zombies are pretty much impossible without bringing supernatural elements into play).

[MoonSylver]

Exactly.

NotLD aside, I loved the press conference at the start of Dawn 04 where there government reps answer to every question was "we don't know"...it's exactly how a zombie apocalypse should be (seeing as zombies are pretty much impossible without bringing supernatural elements into play).

"We bein' punished by da Creator. He visited a curse on on us. So we might get a look at...what HELL was like." ;)

[AcesandEights]

"We bein' punished by da Creator. He visited a curse on on us. So we might get a look at...what HELL was like." ;)

:lol:

Perfect, baby. Perfect.

[EvilNed]

When I, and this place, was all up to our ears in Romero myth discussion we used to talk about this all the time. I seem to remember most everyone wanted the origin to remain a mystery. After all, part of the fun with Romero's films has been to analyze them and talk to you guys about theories.

This seems dumb. Even if there is an answer out there, I want the characters in our films to be as clueless about it as we are.

[MinionZombie]

Plus, realistically, any explanation they give is going to disappointing or infuriate or confuse chunks of the audience. You're setting yourself up for a tough time from the get-go.

[stray]

I'm all for GAR making yet another Dead film and I'd even pitch in a few bucks to help it along, but explaining the plague is a bad idea.

No thanks,

:eek:

-stray-

[Dombant]

Some mysteries are best when not known fully.

[Buzzbomb]

Maybe they'll come up with an explanation of why the zombies are sometimes slow & othertimes super-athletes :clown:

I'd be happy to see any new GAR film... There's only a couple that I thought were bad (Survival & There's Always Vanilla).

[Trin]

Plus, realistically, any explanation they give is going to disappointing or infuriate or confuse chunks of the audience. You're setting yourself up for a tough time from the get-go.
I agree with MZ here.

The reason I think this fails is because the overall setup is already contradictory. Everyone who dies comes back without any contact with others (dead or alive). Which means it is not a communicable disease. Yet being bitten by one of the creatures causes illness 100% of the time, and that illness is 100% fatal. Yet that illness doesn't seem easily transmitted from infected living human to uninfected living human. Nor does it seem to be transmitted through being exposed to the blood or bodily fluids of the dead.

That's quite a mess of rules. Any explanation that covers all that will end up hokey. And that's assuming they come up with an explanation that doesn't have tons of holes.

I'll be the first to admit that I would like to have a plausible, well thought out explanation. I just think that ship sailed before the first film came out.

I also get the impression from the website that he is trying to do a zombie movie that corrects everything his dad is criticized over. I expect that will turn out a product that fails in all the ways his dad got right.

[Neil]

^ Guess you could simply consider everyone is infected, but when dead, the infection truly becomes even worse, hence if you're bitten this "worse version" is enough to kill you.

A little like the "plaugue"... That's ban enough, but if it starts infecting peoples lungs and becomes a pneumonic plague, that's even more deadly!

[angrysquirrel]

^ Guess you could simply consider everyone is infected, but when dead, the infection truly becomes even worse, hence if you're bitten this "worse version" is enough to kill you.

A little like the "plaugue"... That's ban enough, but if it starts infecting peoples lungs and becomes a pneumonic plague, that's even more deadly!

Sounds a spin on The Walking Dead. In that world I thought everyone had the virus. If you died from a zombie bite or scratch you came back as a "walker." Actually, I forgot something. Was it that in the Walking Dead world everyone comes back regardless of the manner of death? Too many years following zombie movies and now my memories are muddled as to what is what. :)

[Rottedfreak]

Okay here's my pitch for the origins:
In the early sixties George A Romero and a film crew are filming an advert outside of his real home town of Evans City when suddenly they are attacked by zombies.
They flee the site and find a convoy of survivors leaving town, the convoy relaying an attack by crazies. George leads the survivor convoy to a closing asylum where he continues documenting their plight three days into the incident. He films people turning on each other all the while zombies gather in large numbers outside the building. Some soldiers arrive and upon entry begin executing the wounded and disabled not distinguishing between living or undead. George documents all of this and finds a lab beneath the asylum while the place falls into chaos as the zombies finally make their move when the lights go out. He takes the last of the living into the labs for shelter and finds a doctor who accidentally rose the dead by unleashing an experimental formula into the water supply. In the end the US army saves the day, Evans city is bombed to the ground and forgotten by the nation, the survivors are given a million dollars each for their silence and sent on their way while George threatens to go public but his camera is smashed leaving him with nothing, years pass and he decides to get the message out by making a movie.
Fifty years later, he recounts all this to a young woman and then reveals he's wearing make up, he hasn't aged a day, he then beats the young woman to a pulp and cuts her flesh off eating it revealing he's been an intelligent ghoul for all this time.

[angrysquirrel]

Sounds like George Jr. jumped the shark. The ending sounds ridiculous.

[pavello]

I went to that page. Graphic design, attitude, the things you people have already told... No cool, not the spirit, I agree with you.

I'd have preferred even something like a documentary, and adding to it tension and bizarriness until the end that, *wham!* the zombie. Dry, dry, dry.

[Neil]

Looks like we could be getting an official prequel to Night - we'll finally find out what caused it all, though I'm sure that won't stop the debates around here! :lol:

If you fancy getting involved they're looking for backers too: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/origins-the-next-generation-romero-zombie-film

I'm seriously thinking about throwing some cash at this... take a punt and become part of the legacy in some small way. :cool:Well they reached the $30,000 goal it seems.

[JDP]

Sounds a spin on The Walking Dead. In that world I thought everyone had the virus. If you died from a zombie bite or scratch you came back as a "walker." Actually, I forgot something. Was it that in the Walking Dead world everyone comes back regardless of the manner of death? Too many years following zombie movies and now my memories are muddled as to what is what. :)

Actually that bit (though not explicitly blamed on a virus) is from the Romero zombie movies too, The Walking Dead just took the general idea from there. There is only one strange exception to this "rule" in Romero's movies and it has been the subject of endless discussions: Dr. Logan was not bitten but shot to death on his torso (not the head), yet he did not come back as a zombie. He definitely should have (example: in the very same movie Pvt. Johnson gets killed by shots to the chest too and later on we see his zombified head moving in Logan's lab, so he did become a zombie despite not being bitten.)

[MinionZombie]

Actually that bit (though not explicitly blamed on a virus) is from the Romero zombie movies too, The Walking Dead just took the general idea from there. There is only one strange exception to this "rule" in Romero's movies and it has been the subject of endless discussions: Dr. Logan was not bitten but shot to death on his torso (not the head), yet he did not come back as a zombie. He definitely should have (example: in the very same movie Pvt. Johnson gets killed by shots to the chest too and later on we see his zombified head moving in Logan's lab, so he did become a zombie despite not being bitten.)

Well, once Logan's killed (in a freezer, I might add - did that slow down the turn?), everything kicks off pretty quick and there's not much time that passes ... whereas with Johnson several hours pass and his decapitated head has a bunch of electrical wires plugged into it ... so, come to think of it, I'd always thought that Johnson's head was 'alive' and moving specifically because of the electrical current Logan had fed into it (before he was slaughtered by Rhodes). That ties in to the bit with the headless body of the Rhodes' deceased superior officer when Logan turns the current on and off and his arms go up and down.

You know, now that I think about it, in all the times I've watched Day of the Dead over the years, I've never actually thought about the issue you raise JDP ... hmmm.

[EvilNed]

Well they reached the $30,000 goal it seems.

Most likely not entirely accurate.
I looked a few days before they were about to reach their goal and they were not even at 50%.

People have started exploiting this Kickstarter deal to the point where you ask for a certain amount of money, then the day before the timeline is up, or whatever, you yourself put in what's missing. That way, you get all the money already donated, even if it's not your goal.

[JDP]

Well, once Logan's killed (in a freezer, I might add - did that slow down the turn?), everything kicks off pretty quick and there's not much time that passes ... whereas with Johnson several hours pass and his decapitated head has a bunch of electrical wires plugged into it ... so, come to think of it, I'd always thought that Johnson's head was 'alive' and moving specifically because of the electrical current Logan had fed into it (before he was slaughtered by Rhodes). That ties in to the bit with the headless body of the Rhodes' deceased superior officer when Logan turns the current on and off and his arms go up and down.

You know, now that I think about it, in all the times I've watched Day of the Dead over the years, I've never actually thought about the issue you raise JDP ... hmmm.

The time that elapses between Dr. Logan being shot to death by Rhodes and "Bub" freeing himself from the wall-chain, wandering around and finding his corpse seems more than enough for Logan to have revived. In Night of the Living Dead we are told that all it takes is "a matter of minutes" for a cadaver to come back to life. So we know that in Romero's Dead world it does not take long for the reanimation to happen.

The freezer door was open, by the way.

About Pvt. Johnson's zombified head: Dr. Logan obviously has been tinkering with it, just like he was tinkering with Major Cooper's brain after he died and became a zombie, but his electrodes are not the reason why it is "alive" (or "undead", if you will.) The head is not merely just moving out of reaction to electric impulses, like major Cooper's arms were, it's moving its eyes, gaping and making noises. It's a zombie without a body! Logan doesn't know why dead people are coming back as zombies, that's in fact the reason why he is down there in those caves with the other scientists, to see if they can figure out what the hell is happening (not that any of them succeeded in actually finding out, mind you.) Logan doesn't know how to make an "artificial" zombie any more than he knows why such a bizarre thing is happening naturally. So Johnson did come back as a zombie sometime after he got shot. Logan chopped his head off (presumably before he became a zombie), used his "fresh" body to feed "Bub", and experimented with his zombified head. Truly ghastly stuff. No wonder Sarah and McDermott are horrified when they figure out what the Doc's been up to.

But even if you don't want to accept this evidence, there's plenty more in these movies. For example, look at all the zombies in Night of the Living Dead and Dawn of the Dead that don't show any bites or any other sign of violent death on their bodies, yet they are zombies nonetheless. Obviously in Romero's movies anyone who dies of whatever causes becomes a zombie if their brains are not heavily damaged... except Dr. Logan!

[MinionZombie]

I'm not denying that people who die of natural causes (or, generally, non-zombie-bitey causes) come back as zombies - I've known that for a very long time.

Consistency isn't a particular tentpole of GAR's zombie movies though. It can take minutes, but as Peter said in Dawn it can be up to "three days".

Freezer door open or not, he's still inside the freezer, surrounded by cold ... so the temperature is going to be several degrees lower - at least - than if he were on the other side of the door with it closed. Add that to the wildly different "turn times" and the relatively short amount of time that passes between Logan getting shot and Bub discovering him, and it's entirely plausible he's just not had the time to come back yet.

Johnson's head ... yeah, makes sense ... I just read it as the electrodes the first time I saw it many moons ago and I just left it at that until now. :D When I was talking about that it was more from the point of view of had the head had enough time to resurrect at that point, or was it purely moving because of the electrodes? Maybe it was hooked up for some kind of 'electrical study of reanimation'? Reanimation as a zombie regardless of the cause of death wasn't in question. :)

[Publius]

Dr. Logan was not bitten but shot to death on his torso (not the head), yet he did not come back as a zombie.

Actually, we don't really know that Logan was only shot in the torso. Reviewing the scene again, it plays out as follows: 1) camera on Rhodes as he starts firing, 2) camera on Logan from the front as Rhodes continues firing, no apparent head injuries yet and only impacts shown are to the torso, 3) camera on Rhodes as he fires a few more rounds, 4) camera on Logan from behind as Rhodes continues to fire and Logan falls. The conclusion that Logan was only shot in the torso is really based on part 2. But it's possible that he could have been hit in the head during part 3 or 4. Especially part 4 where Rhodes continues to fire as Logan falls back so his head passes through the same height that his chest was at.

[JDP]

Actually, we don't really know that Logan was only shot in the torso. Reviewing the scene again, it plays out as follows: 1) camera on Rhodes as he starts firing, 2) camera on Logan from the front as Rhodes continues firing, no apparent head injuries yet and only impacts shown are to the torso, 3) camera on Rhodes as he fires a few more rounds, 4) camera on Logan from behind as Rhodes continues to fire and Logan falls. The conclusion that Logan was only shot in the torso is really based on part 2. But it's possible that he could have been hit in the head during part 3 or 4. Especially part 4 where Rhodes continues to fire as Logan falls back so his head passes through the same height that his chest was at.

Watch when "Bub" discovers Logan's body. His head and face do not have any wounds or even splatter. He died from bullets to the torso (unlike his head/face, his torso is logically full of bullet wounds and splatter, just like we should expect from the execution scene #2 that you described.) He should have been a zombie.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm not denying that people who die of natural causes (or, generally, non-zombie-bitey causes) come back as zombies - I've known that for a very long time.

Consistency isn't a particular tentpole of GAR's zombie movies though. It can take minutes, but as Peter said in Dawn it can be up to "three days".

Freezer door open or not, he's still inside the freezer, surrounded by cold ... so the temperature is going to be several degrees lower - at least - than if he were on the other side of the door with it closed. Add that to the wildly different "turn times" and the relatively short amount of time that passes between Logan getting shot and Bub discovering him, and it's entirely plausible he's just not had the time to come back yet.

Johnson's head ... yeah, makes sense ... I just read it as the electrodes the first time I saw it many moons ago and I just left it at that until now. :D When I was talking about that it was more from the point of view of had the head had enough time to resurrect at that point, or was it purely moving because of the electrodes? Maybe it was hooked up for some kind of 'electrical study of reanimation'? Reanimation as a zombie regardless of the cause of death wasn't in question. :)

Peter says it takes up to three days for a person to die from zombie bites, not to come back as a zombie.

Freezer door open means that he would not have been frozen, perhaps a bit chilly, but since it does not take hours for "Bub" to find his corpse we can assume coldness can't play much of a factor here, even if we speculate that it can possibly have any effect (and why would it? zombies themselves are "cold".) By the way, the doctor from Night of the Living Dead who is being interviewed regarding the zombies also clearly says " In the cold room at the University, we had a cadaver..." when he is explaining that it's only a matter of minutes for a cadaver to come back as a zombie, so I would say that it is very safe to assume that coldness has no bearing on this question.

It certainly took "Bub" at least quite a few "matter of minutes" to find his corpse. He finished the "meal" that Logan had given him right before he is executed by Rhodes, he was licking the blood from his chains when he accidentally frees himself, he wanders around until he finds the open freezer. It sure sounds like plenty of "a matter of minutes" for Logan to have already come back.

[Trin]

My gut feelings is that Romero never intended Logan to become a zombie regardless of circumstances or rules. It was filmed in such a way that Bub finding Logan inanimate was required for the impact of the scene on Bub and his ensuing revenge.

That said, I think Logan should've become a zombie based on having no visible head wound and a seemingly long enough time to reanimate. It seems like a plot hole. But I'm not willing to say conclusively that a rule was broken. How long really passed between Logan's death (we don't know he died immediately upon hitting the floor) and Bub finding him? It couldn't have been terribly long ... events happened fast after that. Was there damage to the brain from all that gunfire ricocheting around inside his body? Did he suffer sufficient head trauma just from his head hitting the concrete floor?

If I recall, Peter had time to get comfortable while sitting in the room watching Roger's corpse beneath the sheet. It looked like he's been waiting a while when Roger finally reanimated. Was that an hour or more? If so, then Logan still had plenty of time to reanimate.

Maybe we should call for a movie where the reanimated Logan continues to dissect zombies in the bunker (just doing what he did in life) and eventually finds a cure.

[AcesandEights]

Logan obviously hit his head pretty hard in that fall after being shot and was not able to reanimate due to damage to his brain.

I mean, obviously. :p

[JDP]

My gut feelings is that Romero never intended Logan to become a zombie regardless of circumstances or rules. It was filmed in such a way that Bub finding Logan inanimate was required for the impact of the scene on Bub and his ensuing revenge.

That said, I think Logan should've become a zombie based on having no visible head wound and a seemingly long enough time to reanimate. It seems like a plot hole. But I'm not willing to say conclusively that a rule was broken. How long really passed between Logan's death (we don't know he died immediately upon hitting the floor) and Bub finding him? It couldn't have been terribly long ... events happened fast after that. Was there damage to the brain from all that gunfire ricocheting around inside his body? Did he suffer sufficient head trauma just from his head hitting the concrete floor?

If I recall, Peter had time to get comfortable while sitting in the room watching Roger's corpse beneath the sheet. It looked like he's been waiting a while when Roger finally reanimated. Was that an hour or more? If so, then Logan still had plenty of time to reanimate.

Maybe we should call for a movie where the reanimated Logan continues to dissect zombies in the bunker (just doing what he did in life) and eventually finds a cure.

Based on what we see, there was definitely plenty of time for Logan to reanimate. "Bub" even had time to finish his KRJ (Kentucky Raw Johnson) bucket-meal that Logan brought him before he was court-martialed and summarily executed on the spot by Rhodes. He frees himself quite accidentally while licking the blood remaining on his chain from the meal he just had. Meanwhile we see a bunch of stuff happening elsewhere in the compound. Plenty of time. Definitely more than just a mere "matter of minutes".

Roger was covered with a sheet and we can't see exactly when he died, how long it took him to come back after actual death, or how long has been Peter waiting there, so that scene can't prove or disprove anything. However, in Night of the Living Dead we do know straight from the mouth of a doctor who has been observing this phenomenon that it only takes "a matter of minutes" for a cadaver to come back to life as a zombie. This colloquial expression plainly refers to a short space of time -say like 5 minutes or less, for example- not longer intervals of time, like say half an hour or an hour. So the doctor accordingly dispenses the healthy advice of getting rid of the recently dead "immediately... soak them in gasoline... and burn them".

Romero could very easily have avoided this contradiction to his own "rules" by simply showing doctor Logan get hit in the head with a bullet from Rhodes' gun, but he did not. It was a slip up on his part.

[Publius]

Watch when "Bub" discovers Logan's body. His head and face do not have any wounds or even splatter. He died from bullets to the torso (unlike his head/face, his torso is logically full of bullet wounds and splatter, just like we should expect from the execution scene #2 that you described.) He should have been a zombie.

You mean this scene?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeaxfJhNwOU

You really can't see much of his head there. In particular, you can't see his neck or chin. I don't see how you can rule out a bullet entering his skull from the underside of his head as he fell back. Sort of the reverse of Michael Brown in Ferguson, who was shot in the top of the head as he fell forward through the line of fire.

[JDP]

You mean this scene?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeaxfJhNwOU

You really can't see much of his head there. In particular, you can't see his neck or chin. I don't see how you can rule out a bullet entering his skull from the underside of his head as he fell back. Sort of the reverse of Michael Brown in Ferguson, who was shot in the top of the head as he fell forward through the line of fire.

You can clearly see a great deal of his face and head. Had a bullet from an M16 hit any part of it, including through the chin or neck, it would make quite a mess, just like we see the mess that these bullets have made of his torso.

Another thing: Some people apparently as kind of a "joke" want to pull the excuse that when Logan fell he hit his head against the floor and that might have damaged his brain. Judging by the repeated heavy blows to the skull with a tire iron that Ben in Night of the Living Dead has to inflict on the zombies for them to die, I would say that there's hardly a chance that a simple fall would do the trick. Plus we also saw Johnny fall and hit his head on a gravestone, and yet he came back as a zombie too. Evidently a very severe trauma to the brain must happen for someone not to come back as a zombie, more than any mere fall at floor level would inflict on the brain. On top of that, we can clearly see that Logan fell on Johnson or Miller's corpse, not on the solid floor. So you can rule that one out as well. Dr. Logan should be a zombie.

[AcesandEights]

Another thing: Some people apparently as kind of a "joke" want to pull the excuse that when Logan fell he hit his head against the floor and that might have damaged his brain. Judging by the repeated heavy blows to the skull with a tire iron that Ben in Night of the Living Dead has to inflict on the zombies for them to die, I would say that there's hardly a chance that a simple fall would do the trick. Plus we also saw Johnny fall and hit his head on a gravestone, and yet he came back as a zombie too. Evidently a very severe trauma to the brain must happen for someone not to come back as a zombie, more than any mere fall at floor level would inflict on the brain.

What's more likely? That Logan's brain was somehow damaged in a way we're not privy to, if not during his death (bullet, impact etc.), then off-camera after his death (coup de grace of some sort), OR GAR was trying to launch a major plot point about the 'curse' having ended and did so in a completely haphazard and disparate fashion?

My point is you're making an extraordinary narrative leap based on what is likely a technical error in a film that was shot with a reworked script on a compressed filming schedule.

[Trin]

While the arguments for why Logan should've reanimated are good ones, and I agree he should've turned at some point, I am not convinced that they are good enough to state that the rules were broken. We just don't know how long he was lying there dead or how much damage made it to his brain. We really don't have good maximum times for reanimation.

[MinionZombie]

Different people reanimate on different time schedules ... Logan wasn't dead all that long. Nuff said, really. He'd just not had the time to come back ... although I do like the idea that, perhaps, the virus had changed (or he was a different case) and the irony is that nobody would learn about that change.

The practical realities of the changed script and compressed schedule also ring true to me.

I'd also warn against using Night of the Living Dead to establish 'rules' of how the virus worked. Romero himself has stated that they never had any rules in Night, and it was only when he came to do Dawn that he thought 'shit, better come up with some rules here!'. Some of the stuff in Night applies, but it's also very vague on details, whereas Dawn and Day provide much more information on the virus and how it works (albeit still, relatively speaking, not that much info).

While a zombie bite and being riddled with bullets are very different deaths, I still think Peter saying that people could survive "no more than three days" helps give an idea about how vague the effects of the virus can be. Some people might come back quick, others slowly ... and particularly with the events after Logan's death being over a rather short amount of time (a few hours at most), it's likely we just never hung around long enough to see him come back ... and that, quite possibly, Romero & Co just forgot about Logan's body.

Have any of the key creatives spoken about Logan's death and the lack of reanimation?

[JDP]

What's more likely? That Logan's brain was somehow damaged in a way we're not privy to, if not during his death (bullet, impact etc.), then off-camera after his death (coup de grace of some sort), OR GAR was trying to launch a major plot point about the 'curse' having ended and did so in a completely haphazard and disparate fashion?

My point is you're making an extraordinary narrative leap based on what is likely a technical error in a film that was shot with a reworked script on a compressed filming schedule.

It still counts as a slip up on the filmmaker's part. This is one of the most basic premises of the movie series: dead people come back to life as zombies, and they do so "in a matter of minutes". He could easily have avoided it by simply having had the good doc shot in the head.

- - - Updated - - -


Different people reanimate on different time schedules ... Logan wasn't dead all that long. Nuff said, really. He'd just not had the time to come back ... although I do like the idea that, perhaps, the virus had changed (or he was a different case) and the irony is that nobody would learn about that change.

The practical realities of the changed script and compressed schedule also ring true to me.

I'd also warn against using Night of the Living Dead to establish 'rules' of how the virus worked. Romero himself has stated that they never had any rules in Night, and it was only when he came to do Dawn that he thought 'shit, better come up with some rules here!'. Some of the stuff in Night applies, but it's also very vague on details, whereas Dawn and Day provide much more information on the virus and how it works (albeit still, relatively speaking, not that much info).

While a zombie bite and being riddled with bullets are very different deaths, I still think Peter saying that people could survive "no more than three days" helps give an idea about how vague the effects of the virus can be. Some people might come back quick, others slowly ... and particularly with the events after Logan's death being over a rather short amount of time (a few hours at most), it's likely we just never hung around long enough to see him come back ... and that, quite possibly, Romero & Co just forgot about Logan's body.

Have any of the key creatives spoken about Logan's death and the lack of reanimation?

Peter's eyewitness account appertains to how long can people survive zombie bites, a totally different issue that is only addressed for the first time in the second movie. There is little room for speculation regarding how long it takes for a dead person to come back. The series made that "rule" very clear from the very first movie. And it obviously took way more than just a mere "matter of minutes" for "Bub" to finish his "meal", accidentally unlock his chain and wander around until he found the freezer room. The good ol' doc should already have come back as a zombie.

The first movie obviously counts, in fact it counts more than any other due to seniority, and yes, it did establish some very clear "rules" that were faithfully followed through the next movies (dead people come back to life as zombies, zombies die only from severe trauma to the brain, zombies crave human flesh, etc.)

And Romero's movies never make it clear what is it that is causing the zombies, so it is not established at all that a "virus" is causing this.

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While the arguments for why Logan should've reanimated are good ones, and I agree he should've turned at some point, I am not convinced that they are good enough to state that the rules were broken. We just don't know how long he was lying there dead or how much damage made it to his brain. We really don't have good maximum times for reanimation.

Does it look to you that between Logan's execution scene and the time that "Bub" accidentally discovers his corpse only "a matter of minutes" has passed? I would say that judging from all the things we are presented with in the film plenty of "matter of minutes" have already passed between these two events, more than enough for Logan to now be a member of the zombie legions.

[MinionZombie]

If a zombie bite can reanimate someone in anywhere between minutes and 72 hours, then surely death by any other means can likewise cause reanimation in a similarly vague and unpredictable time scale.

Day of the Dead spirals out of control pretty quick once Logan has been blasted.

[Christopher Jon]

nerds.

[MinionZombie]

nerds.

IRsPheErBj8

:D

[JDP]

If a zombie bite can reanimate someone in anywhere between minutes and 72 hours, then surely death by any other means can likewise cause reanimation in a similarly vague and unpredictable time scale.

The thing is that zombie bites in this series are not supposed to do that. What Peter says is that it can take up to about 3 days for a person to die from zombie bites, but the person with the bites is still alive in the meantime, he/she is not dead yet, just like it happened to Roger. It took at least a couple of days for him to die from the zombie bites, but in the meantime he was not a zombie, he was still human. First you die, then you become a zombie. In these movies you do not become a zombie "directly", you have to go through actual death first. The issue at hand is that once the person dies (either from the zombie bites or from something else that has not severely damaged his/her brain) then the reanimation as a zombie comes in "a matter of minutes".


Day of the Dead spirals out of control pretty quick once Logan has been blasted.

Still, the action we see take place between after he is executed and when "Bub" finds him in the freezer is definitely more than just a few minutes.

[MinionZombie]

Why should reanimation be in just a few minutes though?

If dying from a zombie bite can take up to three days, why can't the process of reanimation (regardless of cause of death) be just as vague? I wouldn't say reanimation would take three days, certainly not, but I'd imagine that in some cases it could happen very quickly and in other cases it could happen in a few hours.

In Savini's version of Night of the Living Dead there's a cemetery zombie shambling about that has been given an autopsy and dressed for a funeral that - IIRC - got interrupted mid-way through when the corpse reanimated.

So that's all I'm really saying. If dying from a zombie bite can be as vague as up to three days, then reanimation - while not as vague as three days (certainly not) - can also surely be vague in terms of the amount of time it takes to happen.

[JDP]

Why should reanimation be in just a few minutes though?

If dying from a zombie bite can take up to three days, why can't the process of reanimation (regardless of cause of death) be just as vague? I wouldn't say reanimation would take three days, certainly not, but I'd imagine that in some cases it could happen very quickly and in other cases it could happen in a few hours.

In Savini's version of Night of the Living Dead there's a cemetery zombie shambling about that has been given an autopsy and dressed for a funeral that - IIRC - got interrupted mid-way through when the corpse reanimated.

So that's all I'm really saying. If dying from a zombie bite can be as vague as up to three days, then reanimation - while not as vague as three days (certainly not) - can also surely be vague in terms of the amount of time it takes to happen.

Because the filmmaker from the very start of the series already made it very clear that the zombie reanimation takes place relatively quickly, just a few minutes. The issue of how long can a bitten person survive is only answered in the second movie. This topic is never clearly addressed in the first movie, even though Cooper's daughter has been bitten and eventually dies and becomes a zombie, but we have no detailed information regarding how long exactly did she survive the zombie bite, or if maybe she sustained other injuries during the zombie attack that turned over their car, which might have caused her to die prematurely, we just don't know because Romero was not specific regarding this topic in the first movie. In the second movie this is cleared up, though. A bitten person can survive as much as 3 days, so death from zombie bites is not a fast thing. The zombie-reanimation after death, however, is much faster, just a few minutes.

[Trin]

Does it look to you that between Logan's execution scene and the time that "Bub" accidentally discovers his corpse only "a matter of minutes" has passed? I would say that judging from all the things we are presented with in the film plenty of "matter of minutes" have already passed between these two events, more than enough for Logan to now be a member of the zombie legions.I think there was enough time to justify how Logan could've reanimated. But I'm not convinced that there was so much time that you cannot justify his lack of reanimation. That stance presumes the "matter of minutes" is a hard and fast rule and that the events really did exceed that timeframe.

I do tend to believe it is filmmaker error. I'm just not convinced that's the only explanation.

I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse!

Maybe Logan had reanimated and was playing possum like a certain zombie in a clothing rack waiting for Rhodes to come by so he could pounce! :p;):D:cool:

[triste realtà]

I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse!


If you happen to watch Dawn, see if you think zombie-Roger's leg is amputated. It looks like there is only one leg under the covers.

As for me, Dawn is for (around) Thanksgiving and Day is for Xmas cause that's when I first saw them.

[JDP]

I think there was enough time to justify how Logan could've reanimated. But I'm not convinced that there was so much time that you cannot justify his lack of reanimation. That stance presumes the "matter of minutes" is a hard and fast rule and that the events really did exceed that timeframe.

I do tend to believe it is filmmaker error. I'm just not convinced that's the only explanation.

I was thinking to re-watch some of the Dead movies over the holiday week. Now I have an excuse!

Maybe Logan had reanimated and was playing possum like a certain zombie in a clothing rack waiting for Rhodes to come by so he could pounce! :p;):D:cool:

The "matter of minutes" is definitely a well established rule from the very start of the series. Not only do we have the word of Dr. Grimes, who has been observing the phenomenon, but we can see for ourselves how accurate are his observations (Mr. and Mrs. Cooper die in front of our very eyes and within a matter of minutes are already back from the dead), and also how sane his advice of getting rid of the dead as soon as possible before they come back as zombies within minutes. Dr. Logan should have been a zombie by the time "Bub" accidentally finds his corpse.

[Suicycho]

Watch the Logan in the freezer scene again. Pause it when it cuts to Logan. The angle of the camera doesn’t let you see anything between the point of his chin and his collarbone. From that its not that much of a stretch to say one of the bullets hits him somewhere right above his Adams apple as he is falling backwards and goes up into his brain. We can’t see the top or back of his head either so who’s to say there isn’t an exit wound as well?

[JDP]

Watch the Logan in the freezer scene again. Pause it when it cuts to Logan. The angle of the camera doesn’t let you see anything between the point of his chin and his collarbone. From that its not that much of a stretch to say one of the bullets hits him somewhere right above his Adams apple as he is falling backwards and goes up into his brain. We can’t see the top or back of his head either so who’s to say there isn’t an exit wound as well?

A bullet from an M16 entering that area would have made a mess of splatter, both in front (point of entry) and behind (through the exit wound). There are no signs of any such mess anywhere near the doc's face or head, the visible area of his chest immediately below his neck/chin (quite unlike his torso further below, which is a mess of splatter), or on the uniform of the soldier's corpse (either Johnson or Miller) on which his head is resting (after so many "matter of minutes" in such a position the exit wound on the back of his head would have soaked that part of the uniform with body fluids seeping out, there would be a visible stain.)

[Publius]

A bullet from an M16 entering that area would have made a mess of splatter, both in front (point of entry) and behind (through the exit wound). There are no signs of any such mess anywhere near the doc's face or head, the visible area of his chest immediately below his neck/chin (quite unlike his torso further below, which is a mess of splatter), or on the uniform of the soldier's corpse (either Johnson or Miller) on which his head is resting (after so many "matter of minutes" in such a position the exit wound on the back of his head would have soaked that part of the uniform with body fluids seeping out, there would be a visible stain.)
5.56MM wound ballistics are notoriously unpredictable, especially at short range. That's why some argue that it's a very effective combat round while others argue that it has no "stopping power," both sides with plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up their opinions. In combat environments, under very similar circumstances, you'll hear some users report 5.56MM rounds removing entire limbs and heads, while other users report multiple hits simply poking tiny holes right through the enemy. I've also read reports of 5.56MM bullets veering off on odd trajectories within the body, like one case where someone was shot in the chest and the bullet exited the upper thigh near the groin. It's conceivable that even a torso hit could have wound up in Logan's head, especially one going up through the torso at a high angle like when he was falling back.

Is this what Romero was thinking when he made the movie? Certainly not! But it is one possible explanation for Logan's failure to reanimate that is consistent with what we see on the screen.

[JDP]

.....

[JDP]

5.56MM wound ballistics are notoriously unpredictable, especially at short range. That's why some argue that it's a very effective combat round while others argue that it has no "stopping power," both sides with plenty of anecdotal evidence to back up their opinions. In combat environments, under very similar circumstances, you'll hear some users report 5.56MM rounds removing entire limbs and heads, while other users report multiple hits simply poking tiny holes right through the enemy. I've also read reports of 5.56MM bullets veering off on odd trajectories within the body, like one case where someone was shot in the chest and the bullet exited the upper thigh near the groin. It's conceivable that even a torso hit could have wound up in Logan's head, especially one going up through the torso at a high angle like when he was falling back.

Is this what Romero was thinking when he made the movie? Certainly not! But it is one possible explanation for Logan's failure to reanimate that is consistent with what we see on the screen.

If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body.

A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area.

[Publius]

Alright, Dr. Fackler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler). ;) I'll leave you with the last word.

[JDP]

Alright, Dr. Fackler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Fackler). ;) I'll leave you with the last word.

Did he fail to come back as a zombie too? :p

[MustangVoodoo1]

For clarity, Peter NEVER said reanimation can take up to three days. What Peter said was, he had seen half a dozen guys bit by those things and none of them lasted more than three days.
From the cessation of life when the heart stops beating, DotD Remake (2004) the CDC indicates re-animation can occur in as fast as minutes up to x amount of hours. But in the remake people only reanimated from bites/scratches.

Frankly, I do not care much for the runners. The slow Romero zombies of old are far more scarier because in and of themselves they seem almost harmless but when you get around a lot of them, they will corner you/etc.....

But maybe the Z genre' can have a mix. Anyone regardless of manner of death (but NOT bitten) becomes a walker. Anyone killed by direct contact from the "unidentified beings" become runners

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My gut feelings is that Romero never intended Logan to become a zombie regardless of circumstances or rules. It was filmed in such a way that Bub finding Logan inanimate was required for the impact of the scene on Bub and his ensuing revenge.

That said, I think Logan should've become a zombie based on having no visible head wound and a seemingly long enough time to reanimate. It seems like a plot hole. But I'm not willing to say conclusively that a rule was broken. How long really passed between Logan's death (we don't know he died immediately upon hitting the floor) and Bub finding him? It couldn't have been terribly long ... events happened fast after that. Was there damage to the brain from all that gunfire ricocheting around inside his body? Did he suffer sufficient head trauma just from his head hitting the concrete floor?

If I recall, Peter had time to get comfortable while sitting in the room watching Roger's corpse beneath the sheet. It looked like he's been waiting a while when Roger finally reanimated. Was that an hour or more? If so, then Logan still had plenty of time to reanimate.

Maybe we should call for a movie where the reanimated Logan continues to dissect zombies in the bunker (just doing what he did in life) and eventually finds a cure.

Maybe Logaz was NOT supposed to come back. What I mean, in the original Day script, everything happened on a larger scale with thousands of people seeking shelter in the underground bunker. At the end of the script, the very end someone dies but does NOT re-animate. That person was either Logan or the guy in the movie who had his arm amputated when he was bit in the corral. The one in the movie who opened the gate laid down on the lift and brought the herd into the bunker. The guy with the amputated arm was supposed to be the boyfriend of the female protagonist

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If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body.

A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area.

The 5.56 NATO ball ammunition has a tendency (I am a disabled veteran medically retired from the Army) to "ice pick" and thus cause little damage (if the round does NOT strike bone) If a round does hit bone it can tumble and go almost anywhere within reason. I did not witness the following but I have heard multiple stories of similar stuff happening like someone taking a hit in the leg (knee) and the round exiting through the abdomen. Granted this happened to our guys and thus were probably 30MM 7.62 rounds from an AK47. Our guys also got hit from 5.45 ammo from AK74's. These 74's were found a lot on foreign fighters and not so much Iraqi or Taliban insurgents.
Anyway, I have heard many stories on Haji's taking multiple hits from M4 (5.56 NATO ball ammo) and keep on coming. This is from the ice picking. This happens with very skinny insurgents (seriously no joke) the rounds would pass through doing little damage. Additionally many of the insurgents were spun on meth and that would make them look almost unstoppable. I have been in multiple firefights, yet besides 2 or 3 engagements at CQB range(where we were engaged at 100 meters or less) the lion's share of firefights we never really saw who we were shooting at, you would hear the air being cut and rounds being returned to the left and right of you, you could see the tracer fire and watch those puppies bounce and ricochet and go 1,000 feet in the air straight up. You cannot see tracer fire when it is coming directly at you. The only time I actually saw who I was shooting at was the few times mentioned above at less than 100 meters

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If one of these bullets were to enter through the neck it would make quite a mess. There's a lot of blood flowing through this area of the body.

A bullet going through the torso, making a 90º turn up inside the body and going all the way up the neck, through the skull and into the brain is about as likely to happen as jumping from the top of the Empire State building and somehow surviving the impact when you reach the solid ground: nil. In fact, I strongly doubt that one these bullets would have enough kinetic energy to go through so much mass and variable densities, specially in a straight line, even if it entered the torso in a manner more aligned with the brain like you are suggesting. When these types of bullets hit ballistic gel targets they penetrate some inches and then either fragment into smaller pieces that can't penetrate much further or stop travelling in a straight line due to loss of kinetic energy. This would be even more so in an actual human body with all the bones, muscles, fat, cartilage, etc. of different densities and resistance to penetration. In the case of our hypothetical bullet it would have to go not only through the whole torso, but also a few inches of vertebral body (neck area), and then also penetrate the skull. Somehow I suspect that there is just no way that this is gonna happen. The bullet would either fragment or change trajectory as it loses kinetic energy and exit through somewhere else (like the neck) before it could even reach the skull area.

It could happen and has happened. However for that to happen the projectile must hit a bone. With regard to the circumstances of Dr. Logan, I am more apt to agree that this may have simply been an oversight. They do happen in the world of Romero and even a blooper here and there either never realized or just by chance. For example, in the 1978 DotD, when in the news studio when Stephen is telling the female protagonist that someone has got to survive, she interrupts him stating DAVID!! be on the roof and "don't make me come looking for you!" She then responds, "Stephen, we can't" The Camera guy tells her go ahead, the Emergency networks are taking over at midnight anyway, our responsibility is.....finished" That blooper has survived theatrical release director's release, collector's addition with no mention.

Back to the original point, the 5.56 NATO ball ammo indeed has sufficient kinetic energy. In fact so much energy that if the projectile does not hit bone and the individual struck by the round is very skinny the round will simply ice pick right through, doing little damage. For these rounds to tumble and cause a cavitation, they need roughly 6 to 8 inches before this will occur. For the Haji's it can and has gone right through with ass all results

[JDP]

It could happen and has happened. However for that to happen the projectile must hit a bone. With regard to the circumstances of Dr. Logan, I am more apt to agree that this may have simply been an oversight. They do happen in the world of Romero and even a blooper here and there either never realized or just by chance. For example, in the 1978 DotD, when in the news studio when Stephen is telling the female protagonist that someone has got to survive, she interrupts him stating DAVID!! be on the roof and "don't make me come looking for you!" She then responds, "Stephen, we can't" The Camera guy tells her go ahead, the Emergency networks are taking over at midnight anyway, our responsibility is.....finished" That blooper has survived theatrical release director's release, collector's addition with no mention.

Back to the original point, the 5.56 NATO ball ammo indeed has sufficient kinetic energy. In fact so much energy that if the projectile does not hit bone and the individual struck by the round is very skinny the round will simply ice pick right through, doing little damage. For these rounds to tumble and cause a cavitation, they need roughly 6 to 8 inches before this will occur. For the Haji's it can and has gone right through with ass all results

It is different for the bullet to go through the thickness of a human torso than what some people here are proposing: a bullet going all the way along the length of a torso & neck and into the skull. The first one can go through it easily, as you pointed out, without hitting any bones, but the other one is virtually impossible. Going lengthwise through the torso and neck into the skull the bullet would definitely hit bone. There's just no way that that bullet will travel in a straight trajectory. Even when they hit blocks of ballistic gel (nothing in there to simulate bones, just human tissue) the bullets do not travel totally straight as they keep on losing kinetic energy.

[bd2999]

Is Romero even involved with this? I mean George Sr. From everything I have been able to find this is his son's project. I am sure that he is supportive and all but I just cannot find anything of this being official or anything like that. Given that Night is fair game for whomever, anybody can have their spin on it.