Contains Spoilers! TWD 5x08 "Coda" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN* [Archive]

RichW

30-Nov-2014, 03:51 PM

I know what you mean Bass, Sofia coming out of that barn was one of the very few episodes I
almost found myself welling up.
I don't find myself chomping at the bit to see this one.

This season has been well enough acted and written out etc (apart from a few recurring flaws)
But, they seem to be stuck in some kind of 'ZA groundhog day', which goes something like..

1- Group get X miles towards final goal. (Can anyone remember what the final goal is now?)
2- Group member X gets kidnapped by baddies.
3- Trust issues arise.
4- Negotiations fail.
5- Mid/End season battle ensues, group members X and Y die in process.
7- Baddies ultimately defeated ... baddie leader dies horrible death.
8- Rick/Group go all self analytical over whether they did the right thing and remember old friends.
9- Someone gets up the balls to say 'Lets move on'. Repeat from step 1.

Now, you pad that out with the odd eps of gruesome walker deaths, back stories/flashbacks,
someone taking things into their own hands or betraying the group,bumping into the occasional good guy
and you've got an entire season of TWD.

Indeed you've got pretty much all the eps (very loosely and more or less) since Sofia went missing!

Now, don't get me wrong, a lot of them have been told REALLY well and have been very engaging.
But its time for them to break that mold as its wearing very thin.
(Part of this I blame on the governor storyline, he was a good baddie :confused: , sure. But the whole
him & Woodbury thing was just overplayed for waay too long IMHO)

I thought that they had done just that this season, when Gareth was dispatched with. But no
sooner than he was gone, the hospital mob pops up and groundhog day starts again. D'oh.

With things the way they are at the moment, the most enjoyable episodes (for me anyway) are
when they are out on the road - scavenging, surviving, moving towards a goal (especially
through the urban environment). Hopefully when TWD returns, we will get to see more of that.

Saying that though, I find I'm asking myself "Take away that 'drama' and what else can they do
a story about?" Answer to that ... I don't know. (Indeed, take those elements out of any of the
Romero films and the whole thing collapses).

There have to be some ingenious alternatives or at least don't rely on it SOO much. :deadhorse:
Maybe the TWD steamroller is running out of oomph? :(

Thoughts anyone?

MinionZombie

30-Nov-2014, 04:44 PM

RichW

30-Nov-2014, 05:23 PM

To be fair we're also in a transitionary period ... you can't just jump from one major location (the prison) and baddie (The Governor) to another.

I'm wondering if we'll get another morsel relating to Morgan after that little post-credits tease in 5x01 ... who knows, a little teaser to tide us over until Season 5B.

I agree with you 100% MZ. That's what I'm trying (maybe poorly) to say - The whole 'Fixed Location with Fixed baddie' and an inevitable outcome theme is wearing thin. The episodes out on the road, surviving are a lot less predictable and thus more enjoyable.

For a while I thought that with Abrahams group heading to Washington and Ricks at the church, the writers were going to try run both the fixed and mobile themes in parallel, that may have helped. But that (and Eugene) fell flat on its face! (Not that we couldn't see it coming!!)

This mid season seems like we are just waiting for the same old thing to happen to this group of baddies - hence, it's less exciting and more 'expected' maybe there's a trick up their sleeve somewhere, have to wait and see.

Also looking forward to seeing Morgan again after the Ep1 teaser.

Moon Knight

30-Nov-2014, 07:39 PM

facestabber

30-Nov-2014, 07:50 PM

I'm really happy with S5. There is so much right compared to miniscule wrongs. The opener was an amazing episode, balls to the wall. But I also enjoy the slower paced developing stories that don't require the violence/action. I actually would love to see an episode where the group finds a safe/ temporary location and laughs, jokes and play a pick up game of back yard football. Throw in some reminiscing about where there journeys came from and homage to knowing people from there past such as Hershel, Dale, Shane etc. But I don't think most viewers would like this and tune in. I have some friends that don't watch the show for any depth other than seeing 'cool' walker kills.

The revolving bad guys are needed as the antagonist past the Walkers. Walkers are relatively easy to deal with compared to humans. Walkers are motorized mouths and aren't evil. Creepy, deadly but not evil. The bad humans give us much more range and dynamics to survival. I understand your concern about the pattern and constant bad guys being replaced by the next. But season 5 dealt with Gareth and co really well. Quickly and matter of factly they didn't hang around like invincible boogeymen. The Gov was over the top. He was too magical at times.

Season 2 mid season break was phenominal. Completely gut wrenching and acted so damn well. I still love Season 2.

Tonight has been promised to be shocking. Remains to be seen but it seems clear that some of the main group will be thinned.

MoonSylver

30-Nov-2014, 08:06 PM

If it feels like they're in a holding pattern right now, well, they kinda are: they escaped Terminus, found the church, the group got divided up, as far as 3/4's of them know the plan is still to head to Washington, but first they've got this rescue mission to deal with, meanwhile, the other 1/4 is headed back since there now IS no mission to Washington...

So like MZ said, a group in transition, in the post Prison, post Terminus phase. Washington WAS the next objective, but (presumably after the break), they'll have to figure out where they're going & what they're doing.

Moon Knight

30-Nov-2014, 08:20 PM

"Pretty Much Dead Already" is still my favorite episode of TWD to date.

MoonSylver

01-Dec-2014, 02:59 AM

:eek::stunned::annoyed::rant::mad::(:(:(

AcesandEights

01-Dec-2014, 03:00 AM

The day the music died, am I right?

MoonSylver

01-Dec-2014, 03:05 AM

The day the music died, am I right?

Noah you asshole. We lose Beth & get him?!? Not a fair trade at all. :(

But no one can accuse them of not having surprise or impactful deaths. Everyone was calling Carol. No one called Beth recently, if at all.

Here's another level of suck: now Maggie is going to think if she hadn't went on Eugene's bullshit mission, she might have been there to save Beth.

facestabber

01-Dec-2014, 03:16 AM

MoonSylver

01-Dec-2014, 03:23 AM

RIP to another Greene family member. Sad for Maggie and Daryl but goodness is Beth a dumbass. Stabbing Dawn with scissors?????? To prove what except probably causing a shoot out at the Grady memorial corral and most likely killing your family in a hail of gunfire.

I guess she figured that unless Dawn was taken out, the situation at the hospital would continue? It wasn't exactly a well thought out action. More of a reaction to her forcing Noah to go back. It'll be interesting to hear Emily Kinney's take on things coming up here in a few minutes on Talking Dead. ;) Sometimes it's hard to tell what's going on in some of the characters heads, especially when everything happened so fast.

sandrock74

01-Dec-2014, 03:27 AM

Actually, we lose Beth but gain Morgan!!

I dunno; to me, Beth has been away from the group since last years mid-season finale, so she's been too isolated for me to really care what happens to her. Does it suck she's dead? Sure. Will I lose any sleep over it? Nah. It just seemed to lack the gut punch that everyone involved with the show has been going on about all week.

MoonSylver

01-Dec-2014, 03:39 AM

Actually, we lose Beth but gain Morgan!!

Good enough point I guess.

I dunno; to me, Beth has been away from the group since last years mid-season finale, so she's been too isolated for me to really care what happens to her. Does it suck she's dead? Sure. Will I lose any sleep over it? Nah. It just seemed to lack the gut punch that everyone involved with the show has been going on about all week.

Hurm. It was a shocker for me anyway.

Plus she was super hot. That lends extra pathos. Any time a super hot chick dies in a movie or TV show God sheds a tear & a kitten dies. True story. :lol:

sandrock74

01-Dec-2014, 03:41 AM

Plus she was super hot. That lends extra pathos. Any time a super hot chick dies in a movie or TV show God sheds a tear & a kitten dies. True story. :lol:

Maggie is hotter. Just sayin'.

MoonSylver

01-Dec-2014, 03:43 AM

Maggie is hotter. Just sayin'.

Why choose? Take both. Problem solved. :elol:

But seriously, (comic spoiler) Should have known Beth was on the chopping block eventually, as she'd already outlived her counterpart.

Staredge

01-Dec-2014, 03:55 AM

Maggie is hotter. Just sayin'.

Ehh. Not so sure (and I usually prefer brunettes)

Waiting for the social media guy at AMC to fall on his sword. Dumbass posted an RIP Beth picture of Daryl carrying her out, right after the episode aired!!!!!

facestabber

01-Dec-2014, 04:50 AM

Beth has never been a favorite of mine but I still cared. Gotta admit seeing Emily Kinneys emotion on Talking dead elevated my respect for her and Beth tremendously. She cares about this show as much as we do as fans. Hats off to Kinney.

And fellas, it's Maggie all the way.

Also for those that don't watch TTD, Kirkman said Daryl Dixon is not gay. No judgment but I believe this was the right call.

ProfessorChaos

01-Dec-2014, 05:35 AM

the boring meh. I really wish I could give up on this show, but they throw a damn good episode in once in a while and it really reminds me of how great this show is at times.....but then we get another line of so-so episodes that introduce more dull characters. not really blown away by this mid-season finale....in fact, I was more interested and intrigued by the 30 second better call saul preview than I was during the actual episode.

Doc

01-Dec-2014, 08:37 AM

Yeah, let's have majors deaths and a nice swerve. Also, that's deaths plural. I think we can all assume who is going to die in this one but dammit I want to be shocked and surprised. They have been getting really soft with these characters. Aside from Bob, more ppl should have been dead by now. Sasha, Beth, ect. Cmon, TWD grow your balls back!!

The only ballsy death in this show has been Herschel. Every other character who have perished have either been redshirted non-entities or are central characters that had been so demonized that the audience cheers when they're killed. Bob and Beth were a glorified redshirts at best. They did have potential though, which is why it's upsetting to see the writers treat them like fodder and waste them. Beth's death was telegraphed well in advance so her death was no 'shocker'. This arc started out strongly with 'Slabtown', but 'Consumed' and 'Crossed' unnecessarily padded it out with pointless filler and awful scenes. "Coda" had a promising opening, but unfortunately had no twist and turns and offered a lousy payoff.

Also, nice to see that Maggie remembers she has a sister. I only recall her ever mentioning Beth once in the opening of 'No Sanctuary' and not again until this episode! It's a shame, because I think Lauren Cohan did a great job with the scene when she saw Daryl carrying Beth's body, but Maggie and Beth had no real bond between them. It was hard to believe she'd even be that upset!

Moon Knight

01-Dec-2014, 11:36 AM

The only ballsy death in this show has been Herschel. Every other character who have perished have either been redshirted non-entities or are central characters that had been so demonized that the audience cheers when they're killed. Bob and Beth were a glorified redshirts at best. They did have potential though, which is why it's upsetting to see the writers treat them like fodder and waste them. Beth's death was telegraphed well in advance so her death was no 'shocker'. This arc started out strongly with 'Slabtown', but 'Consumed' and 'Crossed' unnecessarily padded it out with pointless filler and awful scenes. "Coda" had a promising opening, but unfortunately had no twist and turns and offered a lousy payoff.

Also, nice to see that Maggie remembers she has a sister. I only recall her ever mentioning Beth once in the opening of 'No Sanctuary' and not again until this episode! It's a shame, because I think Lauren Cohan did a great job with the scene when she saw Daryl carrying Beth's body, but Maggie and Beth had no real bond between them. It was hard to believe she'd even be that upset!

T-Dogg and Lori death's were sudden and weren't saved for a mid or season finale. I would like to see more of that.

Good episode but could have been more. Emotional ending with good performances by all. Now, let's keep the group together and end the individual episodes for a while.

MinionZombie

01-Dec-2014, 11:37 AM

Excellent episode. A heartbreaker at the end there ... I really liked the emotion they put into it. Rick, Daryl, Carol, Maggie - all absolutely devastated to lose Beth (and the others were gutted too) ... really well edited with some beautiful scoring.

Interesting that none of the Grady gang went with Rick (except Noah staying with Team Rick, that is) ... there was a real sense of tragedy to this episode, a weary sense of inevitability in their lives that they keep getting knocked down, they keep getting their hearts torn out.

Maggie's going to be feeling pretty damn bad after all of this. :(

On a cheerier note - yay! Morgan! But - gasp - he's got the map to Washington. Will he find clues to turn him back? Where is this all going? Oooooooh the anticipation!!!

Some awesome walker kills in there too - such as the one falling on Gabriel's machete. I also liked how the school walkers were set up in 5x03 and paid off here in 5x08.

RIP to another Greene family member. Sad for Maggie and Daryl but goodness is Beth a dumbass. Stabbing Dawn with scissors?????? To prove what except probably causing a shoot out at the Grady memorial corral and most likely killing your family in a hail of gunfire.

To be fair what weapons did she have at her disposal? She'd hidden the scissors under her own bed from earlier, and where is she going to hide a weapon on her person except for the cast - so it has to be something small - hence the scissors.

Had Noah not been called back Beth would have left Dawn alone, but it was because of Dawn's actions that Beth flipped her shit ... although she should have gone for the neck ... goddamned Dawn. :mad:

Fare-the-well, Beth ... fare thee well.

facestabber

01-Dec-2014, 01:43 PM

how great was it to see Morgan's expression when he read "Rick Grimes" on that map? Let's hope he finally cleared

MinionZombie

01-Dec-2014, 02:08 PM

Thinking more about this episode and the bit where Rick ran over Officer Bob and then just shot the dude ... that's some hardcore Rick Grimes right there. The man's not to be reckoned with, alright.

Also the bit outside the church when Michonne, perhaps for the first time, really had no idea what to do - where do they go, what do they do? Everyone else is off somewhere etc ... good thing Abraham's Fire Brigade turned up in good time. :D

Another thing: There was a bit of foreshadowing in 4x12 when Beth says to Daryl that she'll be gone some day and that he'll miss her so bad when it happens ... poor Daryl. :(

how great was it to see Morgan's expression when he read "Rick Grimes" on that map? Let's hope he finally cleared

Damn straight. Loved that moment. I can't wait to see more Morgan!!! :hyper:

TWD 5x08 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/heartbreaker-edition-walking-dead-5x08.html#more

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-8kVCVRcFxK4/VHxtRuf7huI/AAAAAAAADWg/gUuRfMEwY-Y/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Abraham_That_Mid_Se ason_Finale_Feeling_5x08_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-o1ZrRfS5Jnk/VHxtRQxPXDI/AAAAAAAADWc/46RZMQRAwKc/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Beth_Daryl_You%27re _Going_To_Miss_Me_So_Bad_When_I%27m_Gone_5x08_Dead Shed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QQQSQLwtBx4/VHx0kFiKbqI/AAAAAAAADW0/viFmEfNgdXU/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Beth_Dawn_Never_Kil l_Somebody_Except_Gorman_O%27Donnell_Elevator_5x08 _DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CTaePAFVxkw/VHxtQJKy7oI/AAAAAAAADWU/AVWlWaxQN1c/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_TWD_2_Bob_Bobs_0_5x 08_DeadShed.jpg

:)

kidgloves

01-Dec-2014, 03:11 PM

Meh mid season finale.
Absolutely zero emotional impact for me as I suspect it was for most viewers who didn't really give a toss about Beth.

Andy

01-Dec-2014, 04:35 PM

Meh mid season finale.
Absolutely zero emotional impact for me as I suspect it was for most viewers who didn't really give a toss about Beth.

Hey come on thats not fair.. when i realised this means no more crappy singing i got quite emotional :D

Trencher

01-Dec-2014, 05:39 PM

How to say?
I disliked the latest episodes. Sure there are a lot of good things but the same thing is happening to the walking dead that happened to the zombie genre in general.
I thought the raping slavers could be a decent villain group but instead the latest episodes have been focusing on legitimizing the hospitals way of doing things.
This is what happened to the zombie genre, it became about gore and zombie kills and making excuses for evil doings.
Making deals with the raping slavers were an stupid and immoral idea. The whole set up was unrealistic and I actually felt like the sudden "reasonableness" of the raping slavers when the shooting started were an attempt of the writer to legitimize rape and slavery under the set circumstances.
Beth could die anyway, no need to take the balls of Daryl and Rick too.
The fact that not a single one of the wards went with Rick and the group is pure legitimization of the hospitals policies on behalf of the writers. Nothing less nothing more.
Think about it. What possible reason is there for not having a cool action scene in the mid season finale? They have a message they want to spread.
I worded this as well as I could but I still feel like I did not get across how hopeless I feel about this shows future.
But it already have its audience from the well made Darabount episodes and also the great actors and characters from that era. The new cast are not very good. The stories and characterization takes backseat to how gory the zombies are and how they are killed. Gore gore gore. Now the show writers can just sit back and harvest in all the gore hounds audience and be a cult classic.
Now I like action and I like it when the characters explore areas and buildings. But the zombs are getting more and more comical, weaker and weaker they snarl constantly like dogs, no creepy moaning, all the atmosphere is gone. Buried under tons of gore and "cool kills".
I am one of those who stopped reading the wheel of time series because I got tired of its bullshit and I am getting the same feeling about the walking dead.
This series has jumped the shark. But it is still enough good things in it to go for a while more.

MinionZombie

01-Dec-2014, 05:55 PM

I don't see anything in this episode that "legitimises" the actions of the Grady Gang.

Each group don't know each other, they're aware they're dangerous to each other, they all want to survive in the end of the day - so why get into a massive fight? The Grady Gang get their wish and Dawn is killed - they have the throne, and they still have their safe haven (some of them haven't been outside of it since the shit hit the fan, do you really think they'll want to risk being thrown out into the wilderness to immediately die?)

Team Rick want to survive, so why get into a massive fight? They've got two of their people, so they take two of theirs - a simple trade off and nobody gets hurt, and it was working out until Dawn got boastful and demanded Noah back (I doubt anyone else would have cared if Noah and gone or stayed, quite frankly) ... for Dawn it was personal, still clinging to her crumbling authority ... that then pissed off Beth and she reacted emotionally, not thoughtfully, and sought revenge only to pay the price. It was a reaction by Dawn - one that she possibly didn't even want to do, but she was running on a hair trigger and shit went south awful quick.

Leaving the Grady Gang be doesn't legitimise their actions. Also, think about it, Team Rick know very little about them - do they know about the specifics of what Grady get up to? Is there time for Noah to go into an in-depth debrief on the inner workings of the place - does he know all of the dirty secrets? The confrontation with Grady was put together very fast and they were reacting most of the time, rather than being able to do as they'd planned.

Story taking a back seat to gore? Are we watching the same show? :confused: Characters and plot have always been first priority on TWD - indeed I've seen plenty of moaning about "slow" episodes (i.e. ones based more on character drama than action) - there's just as much gore as there's always been in some ways, or rather, the focus on gore has been the same as it always was.

Trencher

01-Dec-2014, 08:35 PM

Gore is starting to be more and story less. It is a gradual development. I never meant to say that the show has always been that way.
It is not Rick and the group actions that legitimizes anything it is the whole writing of the episodes. Since nobody of the wards left it is as the show says that rape and enslavement is okay. The boss only let it happen she did not do it herself (unless she did with Noah.) In anycase she dying would only make the place worse not better.

UndeadHippo

01-Dec-2014, 09:03 PM

first things first: Rick straight out murdered officer Bob. No negotiation, no second chances.

Secondly: what is the fascination with limping black guys this season? Noah has a pronounced limp, fair enough....Gabriel stood on a nail and is now limping alongside him, and you can bet Bob would have one hell of a limp if he were still alive. makes me wonder when Tyreese is going to get shot in the foot.

When Beth went for Dawn...just how quick is Dawn's draw? she went from unarmed and surprised to gun in hand, raised and fired in a heartbeat, before anyone could react. (at least that's how it felt)

I am going to miss Beth, but I suspect not as much as Coral will. :D The whole resolution felt a tad rushed after the big face-off. Were the gang just allowed to leave? Not escorted away? How long did the wards have to decide if they were leaving? Who is unilaterally in charge of the hospital now? there are a lot of unanswered questions there, we may not have seen the last of this setup yet.

Once again the show drives home that "The Walking Dead" refers mostly to team Rick, and not the walkers.

As a mid-season finale it kinda felt like too much of a downer ending. I'm not left excited for the return to see what happens next, (although that may have to do with missing out on the Morgan scene due to a channel hopping spouse). At least we have a few weeks to mourn...and for me to catch up on the comics :)

DayoftheZ

02-Dec-2014, 12:06 AM

I have been very happy indeed with Series Five so far. Aside from the reintroduction to Beth and the whole introduction to Dawn (of The Walking Dead) and co which I found to be the worst episode out of all five series.

I thought Beths death gave an almost equal punch as Sophia's. Not because Beth was a great loss (because in truth she isn't) but because of the clear impact on Team Rick members we care about like Rick, Carol, Daryl and of course Maggie. I'm not sure that I care for Noah as a character because frankly the actor doesn't seem too strong and seeing him share the screen with Andrew Lincoln, Melissa McBride and Norman Reedus really highlighted it.

Other points I enjoyed was seeing "Sashas Bob" getting one last appearance, the nod to episode 1.1 with the fingers through the gap in the door and then the whole Gabriel Awakening. Also Morgan shushing the walker before giving her peace something he failed to do for his wife, to the cost of his son.

Overall I very much enjoyed seven of the episodes and cant wait for February, though I will say I haven't really enjoyed the Comics since "Fear The Hunters" so I am hoping the TV series is more gripping.

facestabber

02-Dec-2014, 12:38 AM

Ricks action was harsh but necessary. In this society the definition of murder doesn't fit there. I don't doubt for a second that had the guy stopped running, Rick would not have shot him. He was left with a man with a broken back. Rick sparred him from being eaten by walkers and that's the best he was gonna get. Ricks priority was rescuing his family not playing Dr. I don't fault Rick at all here. It was interesting that he repeated Gareths phrase(directed at Bob Stookey) "can't go back Bob". Rick didn't have the luxury of calling an ambulance or dropping Bob at the hospital and asking for your people back and oh by the way I ran over Bob on purpose. It sucks. Can't imagine Rick is proud of it. But I gaurantee that somewhere Shane is looking down and smiling at Rick��

Good call Day^ regarding impact. I won't really miss Beth but I empathize with the impact team Rick must feel.

DayoftheZ

02-Dec-2014, 07:57 AM

Talk about a subtle hit for the future!!

1355

MinionZombie

02-Dec-2014, 10:40 AM

I am going to miss Beth, but I suspect not as much as Coral will. :D The whole resolution felt a tad rushed after the big face-off. Were the gang just allowed to leave? Not escorted away? How long did the wards have to decide if they were leaving? Who is unilaterally in charge of the hospital now? there are a lot of unanswered questions there, we may not have seen the last of this setup yet.

As a mid-season finale it kinda felt like too much of a downer ending. I'm not left excited for the return to see what happens next, (although that may have to do with missing out on the Morgan scene due to a channel hopping spouse). At least we have a few weeks to mourn...and for me to catch up on the comics :)

1) Having just lost a main character, and the entirety of Team Rick being in such a chewed up emotional state - at the climax of the episode, no less - sticking in answers to the smaller questions about the Grady Gang wouldn't make sense, it would take all the wind out of the sails and mess up the pacing. Ultimately it doesn't matter what happens to them from here, who takes over etc, what matters is Team Rick and what had just happened (Beth's murder) - close the mid-season finale with a high point and go out from there.

2) If you go to AMC's YouTube page you can find the post-credits scene with Morgan. :) I trust you'll be keeping a firm grip on the remote control until the end of the credits from now on, eh? :D

I'd also say that the mid-season finale last year was a bigger downer - the Prison got blown up, Hershel got decapitated, everyone got split up, Meghan was killed ... that one was rough.

I thought Beths death gave an almost equal punch as Sophia's. Not because Beth was a great loss (because in truth she isn't) but because of the clear impact on Team Rick members we care about like Rick, Carol, Daryl and of course Maggie. I'm not sure that I care for Noah as a character because frankly the actor doesn't seem too strong and seeing him share the screen with Andrew Lincoln, Melissa McBride and Norman Reedus really highlighted it.

Other points I enjoyed was seeing "Sashas Bob" getting one last appearance, the nod to episode 1.1 with the fingers through the gap in the door and then the whole Gabriel Awakening. Also Morgan shushing the walker before giving her peace something he failed to do for his wife, to the cost of his son.

1) To be fair to the guy he's a young actor new to the show, while the others you name are all in their forties, they've all been acting for decades, and they've been on the show since season one. We've only seen a little bit of Noah thus far ... give him time. :)

2) I'm wondering if Morgan has found peace at last, if he's got over his bout of crazy and is now firmly in control of himself. I too got the hint to the first episode, the scene where Morgan can't shoot and Rick tracks down the bicycle walker ... some excellent stuff, so that was ... in fact that scene from the first episode might be my favourite scene out of all the episodes of TWD. :cool:

The fingers coming through the church doors was creepy as all get out ... just that mindless clamouring for flesh ... chilling stuff. :shifty:

...

Watched The Talking Dead and awww, Emily Kinney ... again it shows just how much these people love working together and how deeply they not only care about the show, but about each other too.

DayoftheZ

02-Dec-2014, 10:57 AM

1)
1) To be fair to the guy he's a young actor new to the show, while the others you name are all in their forties, they've all been acting for decades, and they've been on the show since season one. We've only seen a little bit of Noah thus far ... give him time. :)

Fair comment MZ on Noah its way to early to judge but measuring him even against Carl, Lizzie and Mika(sp) is not really favorable. To be fair his introduction into the series has been in quite a full on run of episodes so he kind of got lost a little. To be even fairer I didn’t care for Daryl or Tara at the start of their runs and they have gone from strength to strength.

Some solid characters in the group now with Rick, Daryl, Carol, Abe, Glenn, Maggie, Sasha, Carl, Michonne, Tara and Rosita add Morgan into the mix and the acting chops should be pretty good. The jury is out on Eugene, Tyresse, Noah and Gabrial as to where they go moving forward, and if Judith doesn’t start having more lines in the script soon I will start thinking she is just a red shirt. :p:D

I too love that scene in Days Gone Bye and it still stands out as one of the best, and the full circle nod was very nice indeed. The hospital door scene with the “Don’t Open Dead Inside” is one of the creepiest so it was sweet to see a flashback to that too.

As an aside, I see some people have asked why more people didn’t join Team Rick from the Wards, look at it from their perspective. This savage group of outsiders have come in holding hostage two cops (who to the nurses and janitors are a symbol of ultimate strength) and have killed one, maybe two others. These people are weak and scared so its would be a huge risk to go outside with this group of unknowns, they don’t have the back story we do. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.

MinionZombie

02-Dec-2014, 11:25 AM

if Judith doesn’t start having more lines in the script soon I will start thinking she is just a red shirt. :p:D

I too love that scene in Days Gone Bye and it still stands out as one of the best, and the full circle nod was very nice indeed. The hospital door scene with the “Don’t Open Dead Inside” is one of the creepiest so it was sweet to see a flashback to that too.

As an aside, I see some people have asked why more people didn’t join Team Rick from the Wards, look at it from their perspective. This savage group of outsiders have come in holding hostage two cops (who to the nurses and janitors are a symbol of ultimate strength) and have killed one, maybe two others. These people are weak and scared so its would be a huge risk to go outside with this group of unknowns, they don’t have the back story we do. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.

1) :lol::lol::lol:

Judith better start learning to walk and talk quick! I want a Judith back story episode! :D

2)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VFz_r7ZLPhM/UR4ZlTBU6sI/AAAAAAAABTc/DOLSq7l--g4/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_1_Meme_Rick_Hospital_Sign_ DeadShed.jpg

:D

3) Agreed. We know and love Team Rick, but to any strangers they encounter they're violent thugs capable of heaven knows what. Likewise I'd imagine many of those in the Grady Gang who aren't cops have never been outside since they first entered the hospital. Andrew Lincoln was saying in a video how at one point during his confrontation with Dawn that Rick realises she's never been outside in all this time (except for the roof, I'd imagine) ... she's kept herself safely inside the whole time ... so I'd imagine some of the other "staff" have done the same. They're well established there, it's the survival life that they know, and people are generally going to stick with what they know than something scary and new ... and capable of kidnapping two of your own group. ;)

This reminds me of something. It's rare that we encounter other groups of people who survive ... the Grady Gang have been left to carry on as they were (sort of), but usually Team Rick meets new people and those folks either end up dead or join their group. It's very rare that they are left somewhere out in the world ... Sam (who Rick gave his watch to early in season four) went missing and was somewhere out there, but soon was caught by Terminus and slaughtered ... there were the gang members of the group Randall was with in season two (the ones shooting and peeling off in trucks, leaving Randall for dead) ... we don't know what became of them, but it's rare for strangers to not end up dead or brought in ... so I thought that was quite interesting in the case of the Grady Gang.

Things could change in the remaining episodes, but I have a feeling that's the last we'll see of Grady.

DayoftheZ

02-Dec-2014, 12:28 PM

This reminds me of something. It's rare that we encounter other groups of people who survive ...

I know an original edit of the first episode of series two solved the Vatos story but in the final cut we have never found out have we? So technically they could be still out there alive, even though Darabont wanted them gone!
Also Morales and his family from the quarry camp site left and we don’t know how they ended up which was a nice touch.

To me it would have been quite ballsy writing to just have Beth disappear when she did and then never tell us what happened. It’s the sort of thing that rarely happens in TV or Film but it would have given us a feeling of inclusion with Team Rick in that us like them know nothing or what happened to Beth, much like with Morales and family.

The more I think about it the more I have really enjoyed this series (aside from the one Beth episode) and it is only half way through!

Morto Vivente

02-Dec-2014, 01:37 PM

2) I'm wondering if Morgan has found peace at last, if he's got over his bout of crazy and is now firmly in control of himself. I too got the hint to the first episode, the scene where Morgan can't shoot and Rick tracks down the bicycle walker ... some excellent stuff, so that was ... in fact that scene from the first episode might be my favourite scene out of all the episodes of TWD

Totally with you there MZ! I watched it a couple of months back for the umpteenth time - still got goose bumps!! Once we find out Dwayne's fate the scene takes on even more meaning (when revisiting it) as Morgan tries to protect his son by keeping him downstairs. A fantastic piece of film (IMO).

Trencher

02-Dec-2014, 02:22 PM

These people are weak and scared so its would be a huge risk to go outside with this group of unknowns, they don’t have the back story we do. Sometimes the grass isn't greener on the other side.
That is exactly the message the writers wanted to convey. It is their attempt to legitimize slavery and rape. They could have added someone joining Rick and then shown that the ones who stayed lived to regret it. But they chose not to. They chose to go with this very odd out of character stand off in a hallway (of all places) they chose to portray the rape cops as reasonable during the shooting. They had an message to sell you.

MinionZombie

02-Dec-2014, 03:33 PM

I know an original edit of the first episode of series two solved the Vatos story but in the final cut we have never found out have we? So technically they could be still out there alive, even though Darabont wanted them gone!
Also Morales and his family from the quarry camp site left and we don’t know how they ended up which was a nice touch.

I knew I was forgetting something ... okay, so we've seen it before, but not really since season one. So it's nice to have it again.

That is exactly the message the writers wanted to convey. It is their attempt to legitimize slavery and rape. They could have added someone joining Rick and then shown that the ones who stayed lived to regret it. But they chose not to. They chose to go with this very odd out of character stand off in a hallway (of all places) they chose to portray the rape cops as reasonable during the shooting. They had an message to sell you.

The writers et al of TWD are not legitimising slavery or rape.

Team Rick had already lost Beth, and for what? They got Carol back, but they wanted both of their members back and it went sour quick. Staging an attack on Grady would just result in more deaths. Has Noah told Team Rick about all the evil deeds of some of the folks at Grady? Did he even have time to say anything more than "some of them are bad" as their rescue plan was cobbled together quick and acted upon immediately? Did Noah even know about anything bad happening ... Beth knew, but Beth wasn't in contact with Team Rick. Also, I'd imagine after leaving, the Grady Gang would lock that place down tight just in case Team Rick - the barbarians/scary strangers in their view - came back for more.

Plus, you can't get everything you want as a viewer, just like in real life. Sometimes bad guys get away with stuff and receive no punishment, sometimes the good guys don't get to exact revenge, or stand up for the little guy ... sometimes surviving is enough to settle for. Getting a perfect outcome would be fantasy and unrealistic.

Sometimes greed and revenge result in nothing good - Beth stabbed Dawn for her greed, but Dawn killed Beth, and then Daryl killed Dawn ... so nobody won in that situation. Beth acted on pure emotion and lost, Dawn reacted on pure, wretched, compromised survivalism and also lost.

UndeadHippo

02-Dec-2014, 03:44 PM

Ultimately this season we traded Bob and Beth for Gabriel and Noah.

Two capable survivors and passable fighters for two (in a survival sense) deadweights, plus we already have Eugene. That's 3 "noncombatants" right there. Thankfully we have Rosita and Abraham to sway the balance back a bit. What the group is lacking now is a "elder" figure to provide guidance and wisdom (think Hershel or Dale) and ultimately someone with strong negotiation and diplomacy skills.

Lets hope that none of the newbies decide to take over singing duties....

AcesandEights

02-Dec-2014, 05:25 PM

That is exactly the message the writers wanted to convey. It is their attempt to legitimize slavery and rape. They could have added someone joining Rick and then shown that the ones who stayed lived to regret it. But they chose not to. They chose to go with this very odd out of character stand off in a hallway (of all places) they chose to portray the rape cops as reasonable during the shooting. They had an message to sell you.

This level of reading into the material to unearth the supposed motivations of the writers is ultimately more telling about your world views and thought processes, and says next to nothing about the show itself.

DayoftheZ

02-Dec-2014, 05:53 PM

What the group is lacking now is a "elder" figure to provide guidance and wisdom (think Hershel or Dale) and ultimately someone with strong negotiation and diplomacy skills..

I agree with you I miss Herschel and Dale, but I suppose the Zombie Rising changes the goal posts on that one a little especially as the expected age of death has lowered pretty drastically. Being an "elder" now would most likely be down to how much "STUFF and THANGS" you have seen and done, rather than how long you have lived. Remember that Carl was offering to teach Gabriel how to survive and fight the dead that makes him some what of an elder.

Just my view on that one.

UndeadHippo

02-Dec-2014, 07:21 PM

Being an "elder" now would most likely be down to how much "STUFF and THANGS" you have seen and done, rather than how long you have lived. Remember that Carl was offering to teach Gabriel how to survive and fight the dead that makes him some what of an elder.

Carl is the last person I would seek out for moral or ethical guidance lol

The group also still have no one with medical knowledge (a small amount from Maggie maybe), I thought they might pick up the doctor from the hospital, but apparently not.

Hershel had some big ol' shoes to fill.

facestabber

02-Dec-2014, 07:31 PM

Carl is the last person I would seek out for moral or ethical guidance lol

The group also still have no one with medical knowledge (a small amount from Maggie maybe), I thought they might pick up the doctor from the hospital, but apparently not.

Hershel had some big ol' shoes to fill.

Carol was Hershel's understudy. So they have gotten stronger with her......that is as long as she don't start brain stabbing sick folk

Moon Knight

02-Dec-2014, 07:42 PM

Coda (Italian for "tail", plural code) is a term used in music in a number of different senses, primarily to designate a passage that brings a piece (or a movement) to an end. Technically, it is an expanded cadence. It may be as simple as a few measures, or as complex as an entire section.

I love how TWD always works in the titles in unique and creative ways.

Coda was the end of Beth's song; her story.

God Speed, Beth Greene.

MoonSylver

02-Dec-2014, 09:37 PM

Carol was Hershel's understudy. So they have gotten stronger with her......that is as long as she don't start brain stabbing sick folk

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/10/56/6c/10566c9ef3e72c3cf253f0e8143f6f5a.jpg

:lol:

shootemindehead

02-Dec-2014, 11:19 PM

Thought it was a decent episode. Hate the Mid season break (or whatever stupid name it has).

Poor cutie's dead. :(

Sick of this idiotic break ever flippin year though.

Harleydude666

03-Dec-2014, 01:46 AM

MinionZombie

03-Dec-2014, 10:42 AM

I agree with you I miss Herschel and Dale, but I suppose the Zombie Rising changes the goal posts on that one a little especially as the expected age of death has lowered pretty drastically. Being an "elder" now would most likely be down to how much "STUFF and THANGS" you have seen and done, rather than how long you have lived. Remember that Carl was offering to teach Gabriel how to survive and fight the dead that makes him some what of an elder.

Well said. Now it's a case of hands-on experience being the decider of wisdom ... or at least, post-ZA wisdom ... there's still a place for that old world grown up, strokey beard, homespun thinking ... RIP Dale and Hershel ... we need an elder statesman moral compass.

Coda (Italian for "tail", plural code) is a term used in music in a number of different senses, primarily to designate a passage that brings a piece (or a movement) to an end. Technically, it is an expanded cadence. It may be as simple as a few measures, or as complex as an entire section.

I love how TWD always works in the titles in unique and creative ways.

Coda was the end of Beth's song; her story.

God Speed, Beth Greene.

Very interesting! :)

Sick of this idiotic break ever flippin year though.

I don't mind it, actually. I think it helps the pacing over the entire season when all is said and done - we get a crescendo mid-season, so it's not all about building up to just the finale - and really, with all the holiday season stuff going on, by the time all of that is over, you've only got a few weeks to wait and before you know it it's back. :)

Neil

03-Dec-2014, 10:50 AM

When Beth went for Dawn...just how quick is Dawn's draw? she went from unarmed and surprised to gun in hand, raised and fired in a heartbeat, before anyone could react. (at least that's how it felt)
Did she holster her gun? Or was it still in her hand?

facestabber

03-Dec-2014, 12:55 PM

Did she holster her gun? Or was it still in her hand?

Pretty sure gun was holstered so we just witnessed the fastest draw in the ZA. Doc Holliday would be proud

rongravy

03-Dec-2014, 08:55 PM

Hershel had some big ol' shoes to fill.

Ahem... shoe.
(singular.):elol:

Neil

03-Dec-2014, 09:01 PM

Ahem... shoe.
(singular.):elol:

I see what you did there! Frankly UndeadHippo made such an obvious mistake there he hasn't got a leg to stand on!

MinionZombie

03-Dec-2014, 09:52 PM

I see what you did there! Frankly UndeadHippo made such an obvious mistake there he hasn't got a leg to stand on!

I bet Hershel would be laughing his head off at the puntastic puns...

*face palm* :p

Legion2213

04-Dec-2014, 12:11 AM

I'm gonna say it and take the backlash...Rest In Peace, Dawn. :(

She was the best TWD villain to date, because she wasn't a moustache twirling, eye patched, hunter style, cannibal type bad gurl...just somebody who lost her moral compass along the way. Hell, she wasn't even a villain by TWD standards, probably less blood on her hands than anybody in "Team Rick".

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/dawn_lerner_twdtv_9036.jpg

She was also bang tasty. :D

MoonSylver

04-Dec-2014, 12:29 AM

^^^ :thumbsup: to all of the above points. Including the last one. Gotta love a hot chick in uniform. :elol:

sandrock74

04-Dec-2014, 12:48 AM

Dawn was definitely the best looking villain in TWD to date.

facestabber

04-Dec-2014, 12:54 AM

Legion, I didn't consider dawn a villain. Her intentions were good. Approach was off at times

MinionZombie

04-Dec-2014, 10:27 AM

Agreed, Dawn was an interesting villain, in that ... was she a villain? :shifty:

She was also quite mercurial ... some things she did you could agree with, others you couldn't, some things you understoods and again others you didn't ... she was so hard to pin down, was she salvageable? Was she too far gone?

If only she had a pair of leather gloves hanging off her belt so she could use them every time she slapped someone. :p

MoonSylver

04-Dec-2014, 11:08 PM

Publius

07-Dec-2014, 02:17 PM

bassman

07-Dec-2014, 08:46 PM

No more forced singing!! YES!!! :p

Staredge

07-Dec-2014, 09:18 PM

Knee-high boots would prevent bites to the lower leg like the one Hershel got. Yeah, and a leather corset would help protect the torso, and be more resistant to grabbing than a normal uniform shirt.

I'm surprised that Daryl, in particular, hasn't realized the protection of leather and hit up a motorcycle shop. Yeah, heat......but surviving beats sweating.

MoonSylver

07-Dec-2014, 11:24 PM

Riding crop. Riding crop & knee high boots FTW. :lol:

Knee-high boots would prevent bites to the lower leg like the one Hershel got. Yeah, and a leather corset would help protect the torso, and be more resistant to grabbing than a normal uniform shirt.

I like the way you think sir...

http://www.vogueinstyle.com/images/mmlingerie/L-MMLingerie-8023black.jpg

"Zombie Survival Gear" :lol:

AcesandEights

08-Dec-2014, 01:10 AM

1st off, it's a TV show, leather is only as safe as the plot armor you've been issued by your standing in the hashtag obsessed fandom. Daryl's hard-assed, yet occasionally weepy mien and bieber hair have helped protect him way more than any leather goods ever could.

2nd, are you guys trying to make Neil's neo-vic head explode...

I like the way you think sir...

http://www.vogueinstyle.com/images/mmlingerie/L-MMLingerie-8023black.jpg

"Zombie Survival Gear" :lol:

:D

Moon Knight

08-Dec-2014, 04:22 AM

I like the way you think sir...

http://www.vogueinstyle.com/images/mmlingerie/L-MMLingerie-8023black.jpg

"Zombie Survival Gear" :lol:

I would love to see Rosita in that type of gear.

UndeadHippo

08-Dec-2014, 04:38 AM

I would love to see Rosita in that type of gear.

Knowing my Luck I'd approach from behind, noting the long flowing locks....

...it'd be Eugene.

Doc

08-Dec-2014, 12:08 PM

T-Dogg and Lori death's were sudden and weren't saved for a mid or season finale. I would like to see more of that.

You got a point on Lori, but T-Dog's death was inevitable as soon as he had more than one line. It doesn't speak well for a show when as soon a minor character starts having more of a presence and dialogue that they're up for the chopping block. I do like how the Gimple regime has started to repudiate this though. Well, until this episode.

Thinking more about this episode and the bit where Rick ran over Officer Bob and then just shot the dude ... that's some hardcore Rick Grimes right there. The man's not to be reckoned with, alright.

That was a great scene! That ugliness was welcome! In fact, I believe it might've been a reference to what Rick did to Martinez in the comics. Even, some of the same dialogue was lifted from that scene. I think Dr. Edwards (the coward doctor) is a nod to Dr. Stevens, the doctor of Woodbury in the comics.

1)
This reminds me of something. It's rare that we encounter other groups of people who survive ... the Grady Gang have been left to carry on as they were (sort of), but usually Team Rick meets new people and those folks either end up dead or join their group. It's very rare that they are left somewhere out in the world ... Sam (who Rick gave his watch to early in season four) went missing and was somewhere out there, but soon was caught by Terminus and slaughtered ... there were the gang members of the group Randall was with in season two (the ones shooting and peeling off in trucks, leaving Randall for dead) ... we don't know what became of them, but it's rare for strangers to not end up dead or brought in ... so I thought that was quite interesting in the case of the Grady Gang.

Things could change in the remaining episodes, but I have a feeling that's the last we'll see of Grady.

Wow, now that you mention it they do have the habit of blowing up or setting fire to every place they go. CDC, The Barn, The Prison, Terminus......this was the exception.

That is exactly the message the writers wanted to convey. It is their attempt to legitimize slavery and rape. They could have added someone joining Rick and then shown that the ones who stayed lived to regret it. But they chose not to. They chose to go with this very odd out of character stand off in a hallway (of all places) they chose to portray the rape cops as reasonable during the shooting. They had an message to sell you.

I was under the impression that the bad and rapist cops (Gorman, O'Donnell) had already been disposed off and that the rest were the 'good' cops.

MoonSylver

08-Dec-2014, 04:48 PM

I would love to see Rosita in that type of gear.

Rosita AND Maggie. What a cute duo they'd make. I'd even let Tara watch. :lol:

Knowing my Luck I'd approach from behind, noting the long flowing locks....

...it'd be Eugene.

:lol: Business up front, party in the rear? :rockbrow: :eek: :lol:

Andy

09-Dec-2014, 03:53 PM

Publius

10-Dec-2014, 12:18 AM

Have you guys seen the fan petition to "bring back beth" which is currently doing the rounds on facebook?

Made me chuckle.. Season 5 episode 9 opens on beth with a bandage around her head like Wile E. Coyote.

:lol:
If only she hadn't been shot in the head, they could have brought her back as a walker. Michonne could have removed her arms and jaw and made her into her new decoy.

facestabber

10-Dec-2014, 03:54 AM

Doc

10-Dec-2014, 10:22 AM

Have you guys seen the fan petition to "bring back beth" which is currently doing the rounds on facebook?

Made me chuckle.. Season 5 episode 9 opens on beth with a bandage around her head like Wile E. Coyote.

:lol:

I have to say that I am rather bothered by the death of Beth. Not because she was a particularly compelling character in any way, but that the death was clearly used as a cheap stunt. One of the problems that plagued the Mazzara era of Walking Dead was that it also used character deaths for cheap stunts. For shock value. Under Mazzara, it seemed like the only time a TWD redshirt could get any camera-time was on the verge of their death. When the Gimple Regime took helm though, they started to repudiate this bad habit by focusing on each individual group throughout the season and actually trying to build characters instead, of walking caricatures or dictating characterizations for the temporary means of the plot. I gave the Season 4 ender big applause in the end for not killing any regulars off at the time. Now, it seems that the Gimple Gang has devolved on this position and have gone back to the tiring habit of giving a telegraphed death to a character and killing them off with no purpose. They have regressed back to Mazzaraish standards and it's a big disappointment. These type of shock tactics won't sustain this show for much longer and I already feel this might be a sign that it's in decline.

MinionZombie

10-Dec-2014, 10:25 AM

Please tell me this is a joke? And for the record Sundays suck again.

Not a joke. Some people make no sense whatsoever ... she was shot in the head FFS!

Also ... you do wonder about some of these people, what show have they been watching, have they missed all the other characters who have been killed off suddenly and/or brutally?! :confused:

Sad to see Beth go, but I'm glad that she got a good character arc and that she wasn't just another warrior ... some have said that she was the innocence of the show, and now that too has been lost, along with the moral compass (Hershel, and formerly Dale). Dark times coming perhaps ... this'll throw several characters into a tailspin, particularly Maggie and Daryl, and Rick was pretty busted up about it too. They all were, but particularly those three.

Moon Knight

10-Dec-2014, 01:54 PM

I have to say that I am rather bothered by the death of Beth. Not because she was a particularly compelling character in any way, but that the death was clearly used as a cheap stunt. One of the problems that plagued the Mazzara era of Walking Dead was that it also used character deaths for cheap stunts. For shock value. Under Mazzara, it seemed like the only time a TWD redshirt could get any camera-time was on the verge of their death. When the Gimple Regime took helm though, they started to repudiate this bad habit by focusing on each individual group throughout the season and actually trying to build characters instead, of walking caricatures or dictating characterizations for the temporary means of the plot. I gave the Season 4 ender big applause in the end for not killing any regulars off at the time. Now, it seems that the Gimple Gang has devolved on this position and have gone back to the tiring habit of giving a telegraphed death to a character and killing them off with no purpose. They have regressed back to Mazzaraish standards and it's a big disappointment. These type of shock tactics won't sustain this show for much longer and I already feel this might be a sign that it's in decline.

Gotta disagree on this one. Beth had plenty of build up prior to her death. Her demise was even foreshadowed back in season 4. Not a cheap stunt at all; nothing like T-Dogg or Axel's deaths. People die often in the books, if anything, the show protects its characters a little too much.

MinionZombie

10-Dec-2014, 06:57 PM

Gotta disagree on this one. Beth had plenty of build up prior to her death. Her demise was even foreshadowed back in season 4. Not a cheap stunt at all; nothing like T-Dogg or Axel's deaths. People die often in the books, if anything, the show protects its characters a little too much.

At least with T-Dogg he died saving Carol, but it was somewhat telling that Mazzara described 3x04's double-kill as a way to lure people into a false sense of security (like, "oh, we've had a death, now everyone's safe" and then BAM! Lori dies) ... now, that method did work, but it is also a smidge manipulative. I thought that episode worked very well, but at the same time it was a bit harsh on T-Dogg (especially as they'd finally started doing much more with him).

Axel - yeah, we never got enough Axel, you follow me? ;) ... I was disappointed when he got bumped off so suddenly without enough screentime, although I don't mind how he died. Indeed, the mid-sentence head shot kill was used for a major character in the comics at one point.

Beth developed a lot from the girl in season two who was more than ready to just give up on life and slit her wrists. She grew gradually over season two and three, and then really started coming forth more and more in season four - and then they gave her a really good climax to her arc here in season 5A.

I don't want the show to be killing off people left, right, and centre, because if they've made it this far into the ZA then there's a reason for that. They're capable of defending themselves and generally think and act with intelligence (although Sasha had a severe brain fart with Officer Bob! :rolleyes: ) If they just bumped them off here and there the deaths would become less meaningful, you want to get the most impact out of them, but also have them at a place where there's a bit of worth in them dying - you want to get the most out of that character - and I think they got everything they could out of Beth by the time her death came so suddenly in 5x08. Better to go out on a high, then reach a high and then hang about in the background for a bit and then randomly get munched by a walker or something, you know?

Moon Knight

10-Dec-2014, 08:13 PM

At least with T-Dogg he died saving Carol, but it was somewhat telling that Mazzara described 3x04's double-kill as a way to lure people into a false sense of security (like, "oh, we've had a death, now everyone's safe" and then BAM! Lori dies) ... now, that method did work, but it is also a smidge manipulative. I thought that episode worked very well, but at the same time it was a bit harsh on T-Dogg (especially as they'd finally started doing much more with him).

Don't get me wrong, Z, I LOVED T- Dogg's death, he'll, Axel too. My main gripe was you could tell they were dead when suddenly they have more than 2 lines and a sense of importance. Axel should have played a bigger role like he did in the comics, especially with the great Lew Temple playing him, but not everyone can have thier moments, you follow me?

I wasn't a big Beth fan but looking back on her character, her death saddens me. She had a good ride and probably did way more than what was originally intended for her.

Now I'm just waiting for the time when they decide to kill more than one person on an episode. "The Red Wedding" anyone? As long as Rosita lives I'm good.

rongravy

10-Dec-2014, 08:55 PM

Now if someone could just pull the plug on her singing career...
TmbW_59_nK8
Yeah-yeah, yeahhh, yeah-yeah.
Yah-yah-yah-yah-yah-yah...

Neil

10-Dec-2014, 10:04 PM

That's quite a catchy song, but her voice is too high pitched and throaty for it....

Love to hear the same song with someone else singing it... Maybe with a bit more of a "street sound" - Lily Allen or Pixie Lott come to mind...

MinionZombie

11-Dec-2014, 10:40 AM

Not my kind of music, but I did find the "yeah yeah yeah" bit quite catchy and interesting.

Kinney did a version of "Parting Glass" (which, IIRC, also had Lauren Cohan on vocals duty too) and that was very well suited to her voice. That track I thought was excellent. :cool:

Neil

12-Dec-2014, 04:13 PM

Minion, you really need to remember to turn that web cam of yours off!

wU1fkLJnbB0

MinionZombie

12-Dec-2014, 06:07 PM

heh, that dude really must have loved Beth!

Also - he missed Morgan's post-credits segment ... too stricken with grief evidently.

I wonder if that was a second reaction, or was he recording his reaction to the entire episode? These young folk today... :confused:

It was definitely a very sad sequence - brilliantly played by all involved - although I do recall watching 3x04 and just being stunned when Rick collapses in totally unguarded, abject grief.

MoonSylver

13-Dec-2014, 01:19 AM

Now if someone could just pull the plug on her singing career...

Hey, let hot chicks sing all they want. Just don't listen. :lol:

Minion, you really need to remember to turn that web cam of yours off!

:lol:

http://d1w7nqlfxfj094.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/dawson-crying-620x310.jpg

BEEEEEETH!!!!!!

AcesandEights

13-Dec-2014, 03:28 PM

Now if someone could just pull the plug on her singing career...
TmbW_59_nK8
Yeah-yeah, yeahhh, yeah-yeah.
Yah-yah-yah-yah-yah-yah...

What did I just watch?

rongravy

13-Dec-2014, 07:51 PM

What did I just watch?
Well, for starters...
Some seriously lame choreographed dance moves, and Beth's cold, dead eyes.
:elol:
I will admit to the song being somewhat stuck in my head now.
I've been walking around with the yeah yeahs...

Doc

14-Dec-2014, 08:47 AM

Gotta disagree on this one. Beth had plenty of build up prior to her death. Her demise was even foreshadowed back in season 4. Not a cheap stunt at all; nothing like T-Dogg or Axel's deaths. People die often in the books, if anything, the show protects its characters a little too much.

I understand what you're going with here. It was disappointing for me because the Gimple Gang seem to have given this bad habit a "F You" in the second half of Season Four with them at the very least trying, to make us care and attempt to develop minor or supporting characters like Bob, Sasha, Beth, and Tara. Compare that to how minor/supporting characters were treated under Mazzara and it's pretty impressive. Mazzara killed off characters without rhyme or reason. In fact, I bet if Mazzara had still been on during Season Four he would've axed Carol, Bob, and Beth early on just for more pointless shock.

Don't get me wrong, Z, I LOVED T- Dogg's death, he'll, Axel too. My main gripe was you could tell they were dead when suddenly they have more than 2 lines and a sense of importance. Axel should have played a bigger role like he did in the comics, especially with the great Lew Temple playing him, but not everyone can have thier moments, you follow me?

That's a constant problem for this show. And one that has to be amended if it doesn't want to fall in a formulaic pattern. Well, I guess it already has.

What happen the moment T-Dog was given more of a presence and dialogue? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Axel got more lines and a scene or two? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Oscar got more of a presence and another black character (this can apply to T-Dog as well) was introduce? BAM! Dead.

What happen to Merle the moment he became a more compelling character other than a stereotypical redneck in 'This Sorrowful Life'? Did they choose to take the character to new heights? Nope. BAM! Dead.

What happen to Bob the moment he had more dialogue than usual in an episode and with the possibility of another black member being added to the group? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Beth got an entire episode and portions of two others dedicated to her? BAM! Dead.

Seriously, these types of telegraphed deaths have to stop! They bring the show down to predictable levels and are completely without reason. At least out of all of these Bob and Merle got a semi good sendoffs. Beth could've gone many more directions, imo. This was a chance for WD to talk a rather bland character and actually try to do something with her instead, of following the old tiring formula that has plagued it since the beginning. They could've altered the formula and forge forth to a new WD that offered more for discussion than just shocking deaths. The Gimple Gang dropped the ball here. Let's hope the second half doesn't lead to anymore 'shocks'. I'm actually wondering about Sasha now....

Publius

15-Dec-2014, 05:22 PM

That's a constant problem for this show. And one that has to be amended if it doesn't want to fall in a formulaic pattern. Well, I guess it already has.

What happen the moment T-Dog was given more of a presence and dialogue? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Axel got more lines and a scene or two? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Oscar got more of a presence and another black character (this can apply to T-Dog as well) was introduce? BAM! Dead.

What happen to Merle the moment he became a more compelling character other than a stereotypical redneck in 'This Sorrowful Life'? Did they choose to take the character to new heights? Nope. BAM! Dead.

What happen to Bob the moment he had more dialogue than usual in an episode and with the possibility of another black member being added to the group? BAM! Dead.

What happen the moment Beth got an entire episode and portions of two others dedicated to her? BAM! Dead.

Seriously, these types of telegraphed deaths have to stop! They bring the show down to predictable levels and are completely without reason.
Well, if you look only at the characters who were killed off precisely at the time when the spotlight was on them, like the ones you list above, you'll see that kind of "pattern." But I don't think that's truly representative. You also can find plenty of examples of characters who were always major but were killed off (Shane, Lori, Hershel, Dale, Andrea, the Governor), and characters who were killed off without ever getting a real dialogue/presence focus (any number of characters who had names and/or a few lines of dialogue but no real character development). If you take a more universal view, I think they actually do a pretty good job of making sure it's possible for people to die at any point: major characters, people you're just getting to know, and people you were barely introduced to.

blind2d

16-Dec-2014, 03:54 AM

Yep! I was surprised by Beth's death... Gonna miss her, like Bob and Hershel and others... Sorry I haven't said anything about this ep before now. Looking forward to the rest of the season. I don't really have a problem with how or who they kill off, I guess, but it's sad regardless.

Doc

16-Dec-2014, 04:39 PM

Well, if you look only at the characters who were killed off precisely at the time when the spotlight was on them, like the ones you list above, you'll see that kind of "pattern." But I don't think that's truly representative. You also can find plenty of examples of characters who were always major but were killed off (Shane, Lori, Hershel, Dale, Andrea, the Governor), and characters who were killed off without ever getting a real dialogue/presence focus (any number of characters who had names and/or a few lines of dialogue but no real character development). If you take a more universal view, I think they actually do a pretty good job of making sure it's possible for people to die at any point: major characters, people you're just getting to know, and people you were barely introduced to.

T-Dog and Axel had no prior development before their demise so it was obvious when their inevitable deaths came. Bob and Beth were rather unique in this respect, but the end result was the same. Merle had nothing you can call 'development' before 'This Sorrowful Life' and by the end of it was offed. And the problem with the major characters, you've mentioned is that they were so extensively demonized that the audience is glad to see them go. I see no love for Lori, mixed reactions on how assassinated Andrea's character was in Season Three, and being portrayed as cartoonish villains both Shane and Governor were a given to be offed eventually.

Now, Herschel was a ballsy move on their part. This show likes to claim no one is safe, but all they kill off are redshirts, minor folk, non-entities, or demonized characters that no one really cares about. Herschel was special in this respect that he was the first unquestionably major player to be killed who wasn't subjected to this treatment.

Maybe, if Daryl was killed off without it being telegraphed that would be another ballsy move on their part.

I'm still hoping for the best on this second half. The reason the second half of Season 4 is, in some respects, exceptional when it comes to characters is because the entire point of it was to break the group into very small factions and try to give all of them some bit of attention--Gimple trying to straddle the Grand Canyon. I hope this second half emulates that.

Publius

17-Dec-2014, 03:16 AM

Now, Herschel was a ballsy move on their part. This show likes to claim no one is safe, but all they kill off are redshirts, minor folk, non-entities, or demonized characters that no one really cares about. Herschel was special in this respect that he was the first unquestionably major player to be killed who wasn't subjected to this treatment.
There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.

Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.

MinionZombie

17-Dec-2014, 10:58 AM

I agree with Publius.

Sounds like a bumper sticker, but yeah, good points Sir. :cool:

Moon Knight

17-Dec-2014, 04:26 PM

There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.

Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.

I agree.

facestabber

18-Dec-2014, 04:02 AM

Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.

MinionZombie

18-Dec-2014, 10:45 AM

Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.

Not just that, but for everyone on the show - they all seem to be a very tight knit group (which is good for us too, as it makes for a show that people really care about when they're making it for an audience who also really care about it).

Not only are you going to be losing a talented actor from the show, but you're also going to be losing a friend, and ultimately when someone is written out of the show they're also putting that person out of work, so I can't imagine - on a show that close knit - that it's an easy thing to do.

bassman

18-Dec-2014, 03:20 PM

Dale's death sent a message to me that even quality actors can/will be killed off. As writers, this must suck. The nature of the show requires you to kill off popular and talented actors.

*Comics spoiler relating to Dale versus the TV show*
It still kills me that we didn't get to see him do the famous scene from the comics. Bob did fine, but it would've been amazing to see DeMunn go through with it. Mostly, it would have just been fantastic to have him (DeMunn) around until this current season. Sadly, his loyalty to Darabont did him in too soon...

MinionZombie

19-Dec-2014, 10:23 AM

Scott M. Gimple interview on the mid-season finale:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/the-walking-dead-scott-gimple-coda-midseason-finale-burning-questions/

Specifically on Beth's Death:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Tell me how you came to the decision to kill Beth. Was that the plan once you came up with the whole hospital story structure and mapped out the direction for the first eight episodes, or did it evolve that way later?
SCOTT M. GIMPLE: I will say that it evolved a little bit. We were going over a lot of different iterations of the season and the way that this story fits into the greater story this season and the way that it fit into Beth’s story itself — it was the story we both wanted and didn’t want to tell. We absolutely wanted to tell this very tragic story of someone who found out that they were strong all along. And even so strong as to not be able to swallow injustice when it is given to them with Noah being left behind. And strong enough to believe that maybe she would lash out against this person — and really sort of underline who she didn’t want to become, which is someone who is compromised like Dawn. That’s the tragedy, that the compromised person took her down, which is a very painful story. And it’s not a story that we relish making the audience watch, but the feeling that that leaves to the audience and to the characters is a portion of the story that we’re telling and will resonate into next season and put the characters in the places that we find them.

What’s it like having to tell actors like Emily that they are being killed off? I imagine it is not the favorite part of your job.
No, I can say with certainty it is by far the least favorite part of my job. And it’s something they don’t teach you in film school — like, this is how you do that. So it is even a learning process on how to do that. It’s awful because there are characters that you love writing and there are people you love working with. The one solace that I’ve had is knowing how talented the people are that I have been working with, and hoping that maybe I work with them again, or I just see them in awesome things which I would enjoy — which has been the case over and over. But yeah, it’s a terrible part of the job.

You’ve done a great job of taking characters that were maybe a bit more in the background in the early seasons and giving them juicier storylines, but often there is a big price to pay because right after you make us care about them, you do horrible things to them. Were you worried that people were going to see this Beth death coming because the dramatic and heroic evolution you gave her this season?
You want character deaths to have meaning in this show, meaning for the characters’ stories, and you don’t want people to get ahead of them. But this audience is so smart and so savvy that it’s like a mind game with yourself while you’re working because you’re like, well, the obvious thing to the audience might seem not obvious, and the not obvious thing is obvious because they’re just so smart, so it’s a bit of a Rubik’s Cube. Character deaths in and of itself should never be done for shock. This certainly wasn’t done for shock. It was an incredibly tragic story and so as far as people getting ahead of it, some people will always get ahead of it just because people guess everything in every direction. But as long as it resonates with people and as long as we’re going for something great and meaningful, that’s the best approach I know.

One huge thing that may have been overlooked with the whole Beth death is that the group is all together again. Obviously there are always going to be people going off on side missions or supply runs or what have you, but is this group going to stay together for a while now?

You know I don’t like being totally specific, but I will say we’re going to see them much more together than apart. We’ve been loading up on super wide lenses.

:)

...

And here's Andrew Lincoln on the mid-season finale:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/01/walking-dead-andrew-lincoln-rick-coda-midseason-finale/

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: Tell me about the emotions of having to say goodbye to Emily Kinney, who played Beth on the show?
ANDREW LINCOLN: Yeah, man. That was such a body blow. I really didn’t see it coming. I had absolutely no idea and I think everyone was reeling from that one. Always when you get about three episodes without a death you know it doesn’t bode well. Everybody starts getting twitchy. Emily is such a beloved person on set and such an incredible actress. I understood it. You get it in hindsight because you know if she hadn’t done such a magnificent job portraying this character she probably wouldn’t be in the firing line, you know what I mean? It’s symptomatic of such a great performance that we needed an emotional impact, and unfortunately, Beth was the character to do it this season, and it was harrowing.

The whole experience of shooting it was, as always, painful. And also you do feel robbed as well because I did not get enough time with her. I remember doing a scene with Emily during the Hershel beheading and she’s such a fine actress. I was in the middle of the scene and I walked forward to the fence having this exchange with the Governor and I remember putting my hand down and reaching out, and as he brought Hershel and Michonne on to their knees and my hand came out, she held my hand. She just knew it was there. It was that kind of amazing sense that she had. I really regret not having more time with her. I actually pitched an idea, I think in season 3. I said, “I think Beth should have a crush on Rick. And Rick doesn’t have a clue how to deal with it. And also, Carl is really upset about it. And then Hershel gets involved as well.” And everybody ignored me as usual. But I thought it was quite a good pitch.

I would have loved to have seen that idea as a subplot. :D

Doc

20-Dec-2014, 11:24 AM

There's also Dale. I don't think his death was really telegraphed, and he wasn't demonized. I know some people found him annoying, but I don't think that's the effect he was intended to have.

I can agree with you here. The reason I don't take him too much into consideration is because the actor asked to be killed off no? He was likable though, so I give you that.

Also, I think you're still cherry-picking somewhat by claiming that the deaths of characters like T-Dog and Axel were "telegraphed" because they were killed at the point when they received an unusual amount of screen time. Was Morgan's death telegraphed when he was the focus of "Clear" in season 3? Not so much. Tyreese started out as a pretty minor character in season 3. Was his death telegraphed when his character received more focus in season 4, with him in the spotlight pretty much the whole episode in "The Grove"? Apparently not. Same goes for Sasha, who was a non-entity for longer than Tyreese, then her character was ramped up in the first three episodes of season 5 without being a ploy to telegraph her death.

1) I can concede to you on Axel though, I still say the moment he started yapping more than usual he was a goner. I still stand by the T-Dog death. He was literally there just to be the token black guy and moment he had more lines and something significant to say he was offed! He had virtually almost no dialogue or scenes centered on him before 'Killer Within' aired. I don't see how that wasn't telegraphed.

2) I read the comics so I was already aware of how much of a major player Tyreese was. Even without knowledge from the comics though, his arrival was deemed in the show as a significant event. He was pushed to the supporting cast in Season Three, but I don't recall him having any substantial scenes that would imply a upcoming death? I haven't viewed that season in awhile though, so I'm defiantly rusty on it. And by all considerations, Tyreese was already considered a major player in Season Four and had some fanbase by then.

3) Sasha remains to be seen. Will the heavy focus on character lead her to be a major player later? I'm wonder if they're harboring thoughts on making her the 'new' Andrea. It seems it might go that way. Or will it all just be a build up for her to eventually bite a bullet in the second half of this season? I'm hoping for the former, but will be prepared for the latter.

I hope I'm not sounding like one of those inane fans that wants Walking Dead to be a show of shine and rainbows with every character living through every possible event. A show like Walking Dead should kill off regulars occasionally when the time comes. The problem is that only cannon fodder or demonized folk bit the dust. Even the main cast is problematic since characters are killed off before they peak or characterizations are usually dictated by the plot of the week. Season two is especially guilty on this. How many times did Shane, Lori, and Carol all contradict themselves in the span of an episode or two!?

Season Four and Five has been a pleasure in watching all this being refuted to an extent, but it still dabbles on this grand problem. Oh well, hope for the best I guess. There's no reason this show can't be great.

Edit: On Morgan, I actually have to give Walking Dead in that regard another mark in its favor as, I did think Morgan was going to bite in the end of the episode and totally erase him from appearing in future storylines. Nice to see that didn't happen.