TWD 5x09 "What Happened and What's Going On" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 5x09 ""What Happened and What's Going On" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!

Directed by: Greg Nicotero
Written by: Scott M. Gimple

Fact: This is the sixtieth episode of TWD.

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Walking-Dead-509-01.jpg


“After the tragic events of the mid-season finale – as well as losing the possibility of a cure in Washington, DC – Rick Grimes’ band of survivors find themselves on the road, surviving day-to-day and trying to hold on to their shredded humanity and dwindling hope. Stripped of security and without a direction for the future, some of the group near their breaking point, some find themselves hardened and cold and some just try to grasp onto what little they have left.

Though they are still breathing, the line between Rick’s group and the dead is starting to blur. Could there be anything at this point that brings them back to life?”

[facestabber]

What an absolute relief to have TWD to end my Sunday nights again. Sure love seeing new places, new tactics(radios/check ins/time limits etc). The Gov, Bob the girls. One last Beth song(I hope). This show just delivers for me.

RIP. A good guy all around.

[Cykotic]

So why do I get the feeling that...

Negan is responsible for what happened to the estate and those walkers?

Don't drop untagged spoilers or spoiler fueled conjectures, please.

[MoonSylver]

Well huh. Didn't see THAT coming. :eek:

[Moon Knight]

Talk about unpredictable. Who would have thought that the episode to follow Beth's death wouldn't really focus on her at all but used as a way to give Tyreese his sad sendoff. This episode was brilliant. An acid trip aboard an emotional roller coaster. All the dead return spots worked beautifully and it also goes to show how much I personally miss The Governor. I'm also gonna miss Tyreese. My favorite character from the books is once again gone from my life. That final shot of his hat resting upon his grave gave me tears. Well done, Walking Dead, you really delivered on your return.

[AcesandEights]

So why do I get the feeling that...

Negan is responsible for what happened to the estate and those walkers?

Yes, it's funny how they've twice seemed to foreshadow...

Lucille.

[kidgloves]

Excellent episode. Depressing in a good way but shot beautifully by Greg. He is so important to this show
With Daryl around Tyreese was never going to turn into his comic version so his character has been wasted to a large extent

[MinionZombie]

I wouldn't say that Tyreese was "wasted", I just think they focusses more on his softer side, the side of him that was more conflicted by the horrors around him ... someone who had to face these things, but did all he could to avoid them. Better to make him stand out than just be another version of someone else.

Gutted to see Tyreese go - and was really stunned when he got bitten - but they handled it beautifully. The style of the episode was just as surprising as Tyreese's passing, and all the cameos was super cool to see - they really dived down into the themes of the show from Ty's perspective, and ultimately it ended on a tragic-but-warm note. Passing on was something soothing and calm for Tyreese, he faced his demons and his mistakes during his blood loss fever, and embraced the light instead of the dark (and using his own wounded arm as a shield fighting that walker was badass all the way). Just seeing the sunset and the trees passing by from his perspective - and then fading out - was sad but beautiful.

They really played with our expectations here, making us thinking the burial was for Beth when it was actually for Tyreese - and it was good that Nicotero clarified that it had been 17 days since the events of 5x08. It'd be nice if they'd manage to get a little line in somewhere to confirm that in-show, but considering the diversionary tactics of this episode it's understandable that they didn't.

I remember during Season 5A that I was saying how I wanted to see a character death from a more emotional stand point - and that's exactly what I got here. I'd still like to see another 'tragic walker turn' (a la Amy with Andrea in Season 1), but I certainly got the rest of what I wanted.

Totally didn't expect another major character death straight away ... wow ... a superb episode it has to be said. Gutted we've lost Tyreese, but it was handled in such an impressive manner. I'm glad they took the time to really address some of the central themes of the show and the history of where these characters have been, and the style with which they did it was a nice change of pace too.

Colour me very impressed.

Onto other elements...

Glad to see Glenn addressing his capability for violence, and Michonne possibly becoming the new moral compass - or, at least, the wrenched heart and soul of the show - as she's so desperately seeking a new home. It was wise of Rick to say no to that place, as it had evidently been the location of a sinister evil (those walker torsos!!!), but to say yes to trying for Washington. They need a goal, they need hope, they need to find a new home ... and being a comics reader (of the trade paperbacks) I know where this is heading.

Others have suggested there are possible nods and winks to future events in this episode and I'd agree. I'll leave it there for people who don't read the comics, but suffice to say It gave me chills. If anyone does want to address it specifically - please use spoiler tags. :)

Greg Nicotero directed three of Season 5B's episodes, and clearly teaming him up with a script from Gimple is going to result in gold - this was a superb episode.

Another random little thing I liked - the walker with the bit of steel rebar stuck in its neck (so Michonne's sword was ineffective) ... a nice little idea to throw into the mix, hehe. :elol:

Now that's a hell of a way to kick start the second half of the season! Sad to lose Tyreese/Chad Coleman (he seems like a cool, switched-on dude on Talking Dead), but he went out on a very memorable high note.

...

TWD 5x09 Memes:


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d0XcTkX-LFc/VNjnlt7aE7I/AAAAAAAADog/liEUNTO6y4o/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Rick_Yay_Back_Immed iately_Breaks_Your_Heart_Cry_5x09_DeadShed.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yLXS6wXv0go/VNjnndFsWWI/AAAAAAAADoo/Lq2oI_S0LfM/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_TWD_3_Moral_Compass es_0_Tyreese_5x09_DeadShed.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-P8Zb_Fo1w-E/VNjnnZC9o6I/AAAAAAAADos/NwGSrVA0srI/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Just_When_Thought_M essed_Up_Truck_Load_Walker_Torsos_5x09_DeadShed.jp g



:)

[kidgloves]

It always amazes me when they continually think up new gags.
I wonder how much of the audience understands what a big part of the genre the gags are.

[facestabber]

It always amazes me when they continually think up new gags.
I wonder how much of the audience understands what a big part of the genre the gags are.

There are a lot of morons in the audience bitchin about not enough action. A certain sect wants full auto machine gun with infinite ammo and a minimum of 100 zombie kills per episode. It's a fucking shame when people don't realize the effort that goes into this show. Actors that care. I loved this episode. Amazing tribute to Tyrese. He was never my favorite character but watching his story and struggle was satisfying. Very sad watching Tyrese fade to black but in a sense it was beautiful because his struggle is over and he has found his peace.

[Buzzbomb]

I liked the "Dead End" sign on the bedroom wall.

[clanglee]

Well that was a bit Artsy Fartsy for my tastes, but it came around in the end. Pretty good episode. Never really cared for Cutty as Tyrese, but this episode I kinda got the casting finally.

[Wyldwraith]

Kinda irked at Noah TBH,
His need to see what was patently obvious from the open, bloodstained front door killed Tyreese as surely as the Walker. People can talk about finding peace, and I "get it"...but Tyreese didn't have to die. He set out to be the watchful one while Noah broke down emotionally, but then he forgot his role and got sucked in to the emotional by fixating on the photographs, which allowed the Walker to get the drop on him.

The episode was well-done, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed it, but it demonstrated that the world the survivors live in will relentlessly, without a moment's notice, punish any lapse of vigilance due to sentiment. Doesn't mean the survivors can afford to dispense with the emotional sides of their being, but they have to get better at "leashing" that part of themselves when vulnerable in unsecured locales. You can break down from the horror of it all while sitting in the back seat while someone clearheaded is driving....but not in the middle of a dead community where it's patently obvious the place is crawling with the undead.

It's interesting to see that some of the survivors have learned this, and others just....can't. Which is realistic of course, but the Governor-hallucination DID have one point. Failure to adapt (though not as he envisioned adaptation) is a terminal illness in TWD world. The real message is that "Moral Compass"-type characters, with people like Herschel and Dale typifying the breed, are by their very nature far more susceptible to falling prey to the hazards of their changed and much uglier world.

[DayoftheZ]

Well that was a bit Artsy Fartsy for my tastes, but it came around in the end. Pretty good episode. Never really cared for Cutty as Tyrese, but this episode I kinda got the casting finally.

I think we are all missing the main point here. Who is the new Team Rick babysitter now Tyresse Poppins has gone?!!

Good episode though I agree it got a bit artsy and they went overboard with the returning group members and governor. It was also a crying shame Tyresse didn’t get to redeem himself after his screw up drew the Fine Young Cannibals to the group. I remember way back that people were ill at the thought of T-Dog being a Ty replacement, but as it turned out he was close to the character in the comic than Tyresse turned out to be.

It was a kick in the pants though which is what we all want from this show, sometimes you can see the death coming but I was taken by surprise by both Beth and Tyresse so job well done. I hate to say it because he will be a massive loss but it would be good to see Daryl go so others can step up like Tyresse should have done and like Abe could do.

Also special mention to the torsos which were great and a cool payoff to the legs outside the community. I also really dug the metal spike stopping Michonne’s sword (much like the armoured walkers at the prison) and finally the walker shot in the back of the head with the exploding face was nice.

All in all it was a nice appetiser and I can’t wait for more!!

[Trancelikestate]

Indeed, a great episode. Not that I have an issue with this, but I felt it was a bit funny how in all 5 seasons we've never made it out of Georgia but in the first 5 minutes in this episode we're 500 miles away haha.

[shootemindehead]

Well, I may have to watch that again, because I had a few on me last night when looking at it.

But, all I could think of when I was finished was this guy:

http://www.nohomers.net/cbg/images/newgrab4.gif


and his famous saying.

[Publius]

I was a little disappointed, to be honest. The core of the episode was pretty good, but they did get way too artsy. I would have liked it better if they cut about 10 minutes of hallucinations saying the same things over and over and still shots of prison watchtowers and railroad tracks and put in a little more exposition of the trip from Georgia to north of Richmond instead.

[Neil]

I was a little disappointed, to be honest. The core of the episode was pretty good, but they did get way too artsy. I would have liked it better if they cut about 10 minutes of hallucinations saying the same things over and over and still shots of prison watchtowers and railroad tracks and put in a little more exposition of the trip from Georgia to north of Richmond instead.

I found it "tried too hard" as well. But enjoyed it...

And yet again we have someone who is dead down to stupity. Standing there in a strange house, with your back to everything... Seriously, is that believable behaviour when he knows there are zombies around, and even some in the house!

Intrigued about the zombie torsoes with no arms!?

[Moon Knight]

They need to bring back the zombie threat! You can get bit at any time if not careful. Put yourself in the survivors shoes. They are tired, hungry, baked in the sun, most likely dehydrated. They are going to make mistakes. They've been on the road for about 17 days? We can't forget it's a dangerous world out there and having Tyreese bit in such a way strengthens the idea of what Rick told Carl at the church. "You are not safe."

This episode gave you an inside look on what a person goes through once infected. Tyreese had his demons and he needed to confront them before passing on. His struggle between wanting to live or give up was really well done and by the end, Tyreese finally felt at peace knowing he really didn't want to be part of this world and you know what, that's alright. "Things are better."

Loved this one.

- - - Updated - - -




Intrigued about the zombie torsoes with no arms!?

Comic spoiler.

Im gonna go ahead and predict it had something to do with Negan and the Saviors. Also, Glenn grabbing that bat wasn't a coincidence at all. Foreshadowing.

[shootemindehead]

Comic spoiler.

Im gonna go ahead and predict it had something to do with Negan and the Saviors. Also, Glenn grabbing that bat wasn't a coincidence at all. Foreshadowing.


ooooooh......dayum...you could be right.

[Neil]

Clearly the compound had been forcibly entered yes? ie: There was signs of an explosion?

[Moon Knight]

Clearly the compound had been forcibly entered yes? ie: There was signs of an explosion?

Yeah, the estate was broken into as a wall appeared down. The Walker limbs and their torsos locked in that truck definitely has something to do with it. To me, it looks like pieces of a puzzle that will have greater significance down the road. The show loves putting the pieces in front of us. Also, does anyone know if the writing on the wall meant anything? If it's a spoiler just tag it, please.

[MinionZombie]

Yeah the housing estate was forcibly entered - the wall was broken in from the outside. Clearly some decidedly nasty folks swung by and made a point of killing people in a very particular manner - severing all their limbs and then stashing the undead torsos in that van - CREEPY! :stunned:

Agreed with Moon Knight - these people aren't fully in charge of their abilities. They've sustained heavy losses, they're tired, they're hungry, they're thirsty, they're without shelter - they've been through the wringer in a big bad way ... it's very easy for us sitting on our arses, fed and watered and sheltered, to think that we'd be awesome at the zombie apocalypse, but we'd just as easily slip up or make a mistake as anyone else. A momentary lapse is gonna happen to anyone at any time - especially when you're not in your best physical state - and therein lies the danger.

Loved seeing a death from the perspective of the person dying - rather than those around them - it made it very personal and, yeah, you know what, death would be better than what Team Rick are having to face so often. There's only so much horror a person can take, and that'll vary from person to person, and Tyreese had more than had his fill.

[Neil]

killing people in a very particular manner - severing all their limbs and then stashing the undead torsos in that van - CREEPY! :stunned:
People or zombies? Seemed they chopped zombies up not living people?

[MinionZombie]

People or zombies? Seemed they chopped zombies up not living people?

Yes that's what I meant - killed people by hacking their limbs off, and then stashing their dying torsos so that they'd become undead torsos.

Sound like a nice bunch to have round for a pot of tea! :|

Seems like "wolves" is/are going to be a recurring theme in Season 5B, as well.

[clanglee]

Yeah! I just realized that they just skimmed right through my two home states. Nc and sc. Just zoom right through. Damn

[Neil]

Yes that's what I meant - killed people by hacking their limbs off, and then stashing their dying torsos so that they'd become undead torsos.

Sound like a nice bunch to have round for a pot of tea! :|

Seems like "wolves" is/are going to be a recurring theme in Season 5B, as well.

But all the bodies seemed to be by the break in the fence where they'd "blown" their way in. Why would there survivors there? Surely a pack of zombies would be?

[MinionZombie]

But all the bodies seemed to be by the break in the fence where they'd "blown" their way in. Why would there survivors there? Surely a pack of zombies would be?

I read it as the residents had been dragged out to that point en mass by the marauders and then executed in that very particular manner. Any walkers that happened by would be dealt with easily - if you're capable of that sort of violence, you can handle a few walkers coming by.

Future plot/Comics spoiler:
My money is also on this being a reference to Negan - who I think will be introduced in season 6 ... how on earth they'll handle his predilection for effin' and jeffin' I just don't know.

Glenn picking up that baseball bat put a chill through me.

[Neil]

I read it as the residents had been dragged out to that point en mass by the marauders and then executed in that very particular manner. Any walkers that happened by would be dealt with easily - if you're capable of that sort of violence, you can handle a few walkers coming by.
Yes, I considered that, but couldn't work out why they'd take them all the way there, rather than do the same "mutilations" in the middle of the compound?

Maybe they couldn't get a vehicle into the compound through the blown opening so that was where their vehicle was, so that's where they took them to be chopped up.

Still at a total loss why they want armless torsos of living people? ie: Why they were all stashes in that truck!? <-- If this is explained in the comics please don't spoil it for me :)

[MinionZombie]

Well perhaps they rounded up a bunch of folks and that was where they just happened to take them. As for a reason? Well, we're clearly dealing with very sick people - there'll be a reason - but we'll have to wait and find out. :D

[Moon Knight]

Seems like "wolves" is/are going to be a recurring theme in Season 5B, as well.

If you notice all the references than yeah, you're right. "Wolves not far" was written on a wall. I believe Michonne acknowledged it. Also, something tells me the barb wire fences weren't only for walkers. There is a shot as well of some trees that form a "W", and finally, the Walker torsos in the truck had "W"s carved into their foreheads. Next week's trailer also shows a pack of wolves leaping from the bushes. Very interesting.

[UndeadHippo]

For those keeping track, we had a car wreck, a Beth sing along and another black guy dying right after getting some character development. Standard TWD stuff. Standout moment for me was tyreese using his already bitten arm to fend off another bite before calling in an air strike, and noah suddenly being able to outrun the group on his gimpy leg. This season has been fairly brutal what with Bob, Beth and now Tyreese all buying the farm, makes me wonder who they'll kill off in the finale. If what others have said is right about the wolves and our favourite baseball bat wielding psychopath, I may have a rough idea...but is that just what they want us to think?

[Moon Knight]

^ To be fair, Tyreese has had some good character development the last two seasons. He had a storyline with Woodbury, Karen, Carol, Mika, and Lizzie, and himself. My only complaint was he really didn't spend a ton of time with Rick. With Daryl in the group that's just how it's gonna be. I hope Abraham doesn't have the same fate.

[MinionZombie]

Another thing to remember - the "X" marks on those trees - now, IIRC those were made by Gareth and Co, but could there be a link somehow to "W"? What's going to happen with Morgan?


^ To be fair, Tyreese has had some good character development the last two seasons. He had a storyline with Woodbury, Karen, Carol, Mika, and Lizzie, and himself. My only complaint was he really didn't spend a ton of time with Rick. With Daryl in the group that's just how it's gonna be. I hope Abraham doesn't have the same fate.

Aye, Tyreese got plenty to do during his time on the show, so I'm not disappointed in that respect.

Still a bugger when they kill off a favourite character, but then again it has to be - it's part of what TWD is - it might suck but it doesn't mean the show made the wrong decision, it just means they made us care about the character and we miss them now that they're gone, we feel an injustice has been done to one of ours like we're a member of Team Rick.

Of course, back in season 3 they did make a hash of Andrea in the back half which was disappointing. Fortunately we're beyond that sort of carry on now - I'm very pleased by what they've been doing under Gimple's leadership.

[UndeadHippo]

This is all true. Tyreese got a lot of development for his time in the gang, and I really liked the guy.

It also just occurred to me the title of this episode "what happened and what's going on"..... thangs. And stuff.

[Wyldwraith]

To respond to the "Team Rick is exhausted, dehydrated and been through the wringer...and this is why they make these sorts of mistakes."

It's true enough, as far as it goes. The problem with that logic is that veteran survivors like Team Rick would and SHOULD be able to take such factors into account. A simple matter like taking a few pairs of blue jeans and fashioning a doubled-over layer of denim into arm-guards would have saved quite a few lives. Or raiding a sporting goods store, or school (you know, like the one near the church that got emptied out of Walkers when the glass finally broke) to find some football shoulder-guards. One could just as easily do the same thing with the legs up to the knee (doubling the layer of denim I mean).

The group has experienced quite a few bite-casualties of the "It could so easily have been a non-fatal close call" that it stands to reason at least ONE of the group by this point would've come up with the notion. Necessity is the mother of invention, and before someone makes the "They're under stress and busy just trying to survive from day to day" argument, THAT PARTICULAR situation and state of mind is PRECISELY when humanity most often produces life-saving or life-improving innovations. After all, primitive man produced far more complex innovations a) Under different but equally adverse conditions as TWD survivors, and b) Without the benefit of the accumulation of knowledge we refer to as a "modern education."

I mean the group immediately saw the benefit of using the riot gear they found at the prison, so the concept isn't unfamiliar to them....and that, coupled with the people they've lost (or had to perform amputations on to save) should be enough to prompt them to seek some protection for their extremities. After all, from the group's experience it's the Walker that surprises someone and gets in a bite during that first moment of surprise that has caused the majority of the deaths. Walkers are still limited to the dentition of a human being after all, so even if they can bite harder than a human because they feel no pain and are insensible to damaging themselves while biting, I just can't believe that a Walker could bite through TWO layers of denim.

The notion would make even more sense to Team Rick BECAUSE they're aware that half the time they're on the move exhausted, sometimes dehydrated and nearly always underfed. Incidents like what just happened to Tyreese, and what happened to Herschel before him, should at some point drive the point home that it's the Walker-bite that comes as a surprise that is most often the bite that kills. In a face to face struggle the survivors nearly always come out on top even without someone else's help...and even then, that help is nearly always available if needed.

That said, I understand that the characters doing something intelligent and well-reasoned, instigated by the same tragic event under the same exact circumstances time and again would force the show's writers to actually think, as opposed to repeating the same type of Walker-attack-sequence again and again, but there comes a point where it begins to beggar belief that individuals who are one bite away from a slow, lingering, painful death, who've lost numerous friends and family members to the bites of Walkers who caught them by surprise at this point, who've explored the concept of bite-protection on one level using pre-made armor, WOULDN'T now be engineering protection against such surprise bites.

If nothing else, what just happened to Tyreese should have driven the point home. Not to mention that Rick's mindset which he expressed to Carl, ie "You are not safe, you're never safe" should put him in mind of engineering such protection.

Bottom line, is it more believable the survivors wouldn't try to prevent losing people to these surprise bites? Or more believable that, having lost numerous group members to Walkers the victim didn't see coming until too late, with Tyreese being the latest to die under the same circumstances, that at least one member of the group would strongly champion the idea of this easy-to-produce protection?

At what point have enough lives been lost to the Walkers they don't see coming before doing something to at least mitigate the risk of it happening again, and again, and again becomes not only prudent, but so obvious that NOT taking such steps becomes akin to insanity?

Postscript:
I do get it. The world of TWD is supposed to vibrate with a feeling of omnipresent danger, and the danger the characters constantly have to face is at the core of the dramatic elements of the show, but having characters overlook basic sensible precautions after having been exposed to the same exact danger under the same exact circumstances begins IMHO to undermine the sense of drama because the viewer's frustration with the characters lack of common sense gets in the way. Better by far that the writers stretch their creative muscles and explore new avenues of demonstrating the zombie threat. Several zombie movies have depicted survivors who took steps to protect themselves without undermining the danger or grim and bleak nature of the post-apocalyptic world the characters struggle to survive in. Why not TWD? Again I say, not having the characters take such steps at this point amounts to nothing more than writer laziness.

[facestabber]

^ Wylde I hear what your saying. Very honest and truthful as to what TWD writers are giving us. Tyrese getting bit like that made me roll my eyes and say "come on man". Unless the show is implying that Walkers are evolving and gaining intelligence, they have no reason to be silent when approaching a meal. Walkers would announce their presence quite readily.

Not disputing what you said but I will add in a word that dooms many people. Complacency. In my line of work it gets us killed. It's just a human reality, that we become complacent. Think of being in that hot Georgia sun and you have head to toe protective gear but haven't seen a Walker for days. Our minds are aware we are safer with the gear on but the relief of taking layers off feels so good. Hahahaha.

[Wyldwraith]

@Facestabber:
Excellent point about complacency, but I wouldn't expect Team Rick to wear such protection *all* the time...just when, say, they're going to investigate the interior of a dead-silent formerly-gated and now exploded-gated residential communities in which they laid eyes on a Walker staggering down the middle of the street within five seconds of entering said community.

Another point about the effectiveness of denim arm-guards: Tyreese demonstrated this point himself. Walkers grab the nearest part of a live human they can, not the nearest *unprotected part*...if you had a couple layers of denim on your forearm you could just shove said forearm in a Walker's face, and kill it while it's going for said protected forearm. Since the arm is closest, it will never go for any other part of the body.

The heat issue is a valid one too, but again not suggesting such protection is every minute of the day wear. After all, rattlesnake wranglers don't wear their anti-snakebite gear unless needed, right?

[Moon Knight]

C'mon, man, Walkers can bite through denim. Just ask Zack. :D

[Publius]

@Facestabber:
Excellent point about complacency, but I wouldn't expect Team Rick to wear such protection *all* the time...just when, say, they're going to investigate the interior of a dead-silent formerly-gated and now exploded-gated residential communities in which they laid eyes on a Walker staggering down the middle of the street within five seconds of entering said community.

Another point about the effectiveness of denim arm-guards: Tyreese demonstrated this point himself. Walkers grab the nearest part of a live human they can, not the nearest *unprotected part*...if you had a couple layers of denim on your forearm you could just shove said forearm in a Walker's face, and kill it while it's going for said protected forearm. Since the arm is closest, it will never go for any other part of the body.

The heat issue is a valid one too, but again not suggesting such protection is every minute of the day wear. After all, rattlesnake wranglers don't wear their anti-snakebite gear unless needed, right?
This is true. I was going to reply to your previous post noting the heat issue. In pre-modern wars often disease killed more people than bullets, swords, spears, or arrows did, and it probably wouldn't help much to trade bite casualties for heat exhaustion casualties. Plus speed, agility, and endurance count for a lot, and that has to be balanced against protection. But you're quite right that there'd be little weight penalty and a lot of utility from carrying around some denim or leather forearm guards which could be slipped on before clearing a building or compound.

[Buzzbomb]

Wyldwraith's commentary makes a lot of sense...

The original Atlanta group wore protective gear when clearing the alleyway (when Glen rescued Rick)... & Milton also demonstrated that duck tape on his shirt was 'biter proof'. It's not rocket science.

I guess it's just more expedient for the producers to have survivors wandering around vulnerable to bites on arms, through clothing etc...

I reckon far fewer deaths occur in the TWD universe from zombie bites than from other survivors, despite how dead significantly outnumber the living.

[facestabber]

I'd say a leather/denim jacket with heavy duty gloves sewn to the sleeve would be about as smart as an investment as any for protecting against a cheap Walker bite. I would like to think I would be that careful in that world. But a person must also consider additional protection against humans. There has to be body armor/bullet resistant vests around. Entering unknown buildings, I would be far more concerned with human threats. Being able to take rounds in the upper torso and stay in the fight would be a big advantage. Then again, in TWD universe everyone is capable of head shots in high stress situations.

[Wyldwraith]

You're absolutely right Facestabber, a decent leather/denim jacket would do the job and not even require the utterly minimal job of actually manipulating some cut-apart blue jeans or somesuch. If you want to talk about complacency, check out the commercial previewing the upcoming episode. Team Rick just plodding down the highway with 30-40 Walkers plodding along behind them about twenty-five feet behind them I mean C'MON, is there ANYONE HERE who wouldn't prefer to be a little warm rather than cool and unprotected if you had a mini-horde of flesheating undead less than a first down's distance behind you?

The more I think about this issue, the more absurd it gets that these people are wandering around bare-armed (and legged for that matter) three years into a zombie apocalypse. As for gear to protect yourself from other survivors, that's a bit more problematic. One thing that bugs me about firearms in TWD is that you so rarely see shotguns being employed. Yes, I realize that other than at very, very close range unless using slugs or 00 buckshot (and even then only opening up the range a bit when you consider the need for headshots) shotguns aren't great versus Walkers. Yet other than .22's, shotguns are going to be one of the most commonly owned by civilians firearm-types you'd find, and the ammo would be relatively plentiful as well. Especially considering how many people wouldn't even bother to pick up the lighter-shot shells. I know from *personal* experience that one can kill much, MUCH larger creatures than the type of shot is designed for if you're very close. I killed a 91lbs feral pig with birdshot from a 16-gauge shotgun while hunting quail with my stepdad. Surprised the pig in tall grass/brush, it came in my direction at a slow trot and made some sounds I didn't like, so I pumped three shells worth of 8-shot into its face and neck. The pig died quite quickly and without much further forward advancement. I would therefore argue one could easily kill a Walker at 20 feet with a couple blasts of birdshot if you're good with a shotgun. NOT ideal, of course, but not everyone has the neverending supply of .357 rounds that Rick does (All the more impressive considering .357s aren't even available as retail firearms any longer, and in most gun stores the ammunition must be purchased by special order, ahead of time-of-purchase. So it would MOST DEFINITELY NOT be lying around anywhere but in the home of say, a now-deceased former gun owner...and unless they died almost immediately after the onset of the Walkers rising, it's quite likely they would've expended much of what ammunition they did have in self-defense before expiring. But that's another matter for another discussion.)

In any case, a survivor armed with a shotgun loaded with slugs or double-ought buckshot would break multiple ribs if they shot someone wearing a bullet-resistant vest at anything but extreme long range. The same would be true for many of the larger caliber rounds. Especially given the way survivors seem to pump numerous rounds into/at whatever they're shooting at in TWD universe. At 10-30 feet anything more powerful than a .38 would break ribs and possibly cause other internal injuries that would be a slow death sentence in TWD universe. If my choices were being shot in the chest and having cue-ball-sized holes blasted out my back from 2-4 .45 rounds pumped into my chest at close range, or having 4 ribs badly broken, one of which badly punctured my right lung, causing my lung(s) to slowly fill with blood effectively drowning me because I took the same 2-4 .45 rounds in the chest at close range while wearing a ballistic vest, honestly I'd rather get shot while not wearing the vest and just get on with the dying quickly from massive blood loss, crashing blood pressure and shock, any of which would render me unconscious in minutes, making the rest of my dying not too terribly unpleasant.

Anyone else feel similarly?

[facestabber]

You're absolutely right Facestabber, a decent leather/denim jacket would do the job and not even require the utterly minimal job of actually manipulating some cut-apart blue jeans or somesuch. If you want to talk about complacency, check out the commercial previewing the upcoming episode. Team Rick just plodding down the highway with 30-40 Walkers plodding along behind them about twenty-five feet behind them I mean C'MON, is there ANYONE HERE who wouldn't prefer to be a little warm rather than cool and unprotected if you had a mini-horde of flesheating undead less than a first down's distance behind you?

The more I think about this issue, the more absurd it gets that these people are wandering around bare-armed (and legged for that matter) three years into a zombie apocalypse. As for gear to protect yourself from other survivors, that's a bit more problematic. One thing that bugs me about firearms in TWD is that you so rarely see shotguns being employed. Yes, I realize that other than at very, very close range unless using slugs or 00 buckshot (and even then only opening up the range a bit when you consider the need for headshots) shotguns aren't great versus Walkers. Yet other than .22's, shotguns are going to be one of the most commonly owned by civilians firearm-types you'd find, and the ammo would be relatively plentiful as well. Especially considering how many people wouldn't even bother to pick up the lighter-shot shells. I know from *personal* experience that one can kill much, MUCH larger creatures than the type of shot is designed for if you're very close. I killed a 91lbs feral pig with birdshot from a 16-gauge shotgun while hunting quail with my stepdad. Surprised the pig in tall grass/brush, it came in my direction at a slow trot and made some sounds I didn't like, so I pumped three shells worth of 8-shot into its face and neck. The pig died quite quickly and without much further forward advancement. I would therefore argue one could easily kill a Walker at 20 feet with a couple blasts of birdshot if you're good with a shotgun. NOT ideal, of course, but not everyone has the neverending supply of .357 rounds that Rick does (All the more impressive considering .357s aren't even available as retail firearms any longer, and in most gun stores the ammunition must be purchased by special order, ahead of time-of-purchase. So it would MOST DEFINITELY NOT be lying around anywhere but in the home of say, a now-deceased former gun owner...and unless they died almost immediately after the onset of the Walkers rising, it's quite likely they would've expended much of what ammunition they did have in self-defense before expiring. But that's another matter for another discussion.)

In any case, a survivor armed with a shotgun loaded with slugs or double-ought buckshot would break multiple ribs if they shot someone wearing a bullet-resistant vest at anything but extreme long range. The same would be true for many of the larger caliber rounds. Especially given the way survivors seem to pump numerous rounds into/at whatever they're shooting at in TWD universe. At 10-30 feet anything more powerful than a .38 would break ribs and possibly cause other internal injuries that would be a slow death sentence in TWD universe. If my choices were being shot in the chest and having cue-ball-sized holes blasted out my back from 2-4 .45 rounds pumped into my chest at close range, or having 4 ribs badly broken, one of which badly punctured my right lung, causing my lung(s) to slowly fill with blood effectively drowning me because I took the same 2-4 .45 rounds in the chest at close range while wearing a ballistic vest, honestly I'd rather get shot while not wearing the vest and just get on with the dying quickly from massive blood loss, crashing blood pressure and shock, any of which would render me unconscious in minutes, making the rest of my dying not too terribly unpleasant.

Anyone else feel similarly?

Shane's Mossberg would be a damn good tool to have. 8rnd tube and 1 piped = 9 powerful rounds. Ideally I'd use buckshot. Slugs would be handy to have on hand if the threat is non Walker. You are right that lesser loads would still be effective. I believe even bird shot in tight enviro's like clearing a house would be more than enough to take down Walkers. The issue with shotguns is the bulkiness of the shells and weight. I can carry 30 5.56 rounds conveniently in a single magazine. I can fire all 30 rounds in rapid succession. 30 shot shells takes up a lot of space. Reloading 1 shell at a time is not very efficient compared to magazine fed weapons. I love a shotgun but if I have to choose between 1 long gun, I'd choose my ACR or SCAR before my 12 gauge. Don't get me wrong I'd carry both as long as I could. Oh and you're correct about .357 being sparse. I have a .357 and never shoot it. Ammo is ridiculously pricey and my semi autos are more satisfying to shoot. Revolvers look neat but I've never bought into their hype. Most plentiful rounds in the US(I would guess) 9mm, 12 gauge and 5.56.

Regarding body armor. I don't know what the statistics are regarding slow deaths after taking rounds in a vest. I have no doubt many rounds will hurt like hell but if it stops penetration, I can most likely still fight. I'd take my chances with the armor.

[Trencher]

I alway been annoyed by how the characters move about in T-shirts and skinny jeans.
As for Tyrese I have mixed feelings. How he have been characterized in the series have gone beyond moral paragon and into "is he retarded?" territory. The slow way he sometimes speak the way he insist on keeping the baby eater alive and how he sometimes look at people with those big eyes made me dismissive of the whole character. I just could not take him seriously. The Tyrese in the comics were a pro active leader type and a powerhouse. He was also very moral but not pacifistic up and until "I would let a thousand innocents die, if I could just save one guilty person.". Very strange character in the series and poorly written as well. Its a shame really because I think the actor was great and had some potential to show some real charisma and badassitude.
¨
As for the gated community. Do you think the guys who hit it were the same guys who hit the country club? Remember that one corpse in the country club who had her arms and legs cut off and put on a table, with the "rich bitch" sign? It could be a trademark way of killing something a serial killer would do, or an army of serial killers..
In any case I hope they dont do a rich vs poor angle with the wolves being the poor.

[Trin]

I enjoyed the episode well enough. It was a bit artsy. It had the feel of, "Look, we can do artsy." But that's not an unwelcome change, now and then. And it was done well enough.

I enjoyed how Tyreese was seeing the girls and Beth telling him it was okay while the ex-villains were reinforcing his feelings of failure. His ending vision was oddly comforting with his most beloved ex-survivors in the SUV with him.

As to how Tyreese got into that mess ... I'm not buying any of the proposed arguments. They weren't dehydrated, underfed, or tired. They had a solid plan for approaching and assessing the place. They took down the walkers with relative ease upon entering. They showed no signs of mental or physical degradation.

There's no reason it goes down that way. They saw the place was a mess. They had no idea what happened, or if residual danger was lurking (zombie or otherwise). They split up and left Noah broken down in the middle of the street with only Tyreese to watch over him.

That is like pulling into your garage and seeing your house has been broken into and deciding to go have a look around before calling the police, leaving your wife and kids in the car. And ... assuming your house is broken into every month and the robbers are ALWAYS still there, and you've lost several former wives and children to them.

[MinionZombie]

As for the gated community. Do you think the guys who hit it were the same guys who hit the country club? Remember that one corpse in the country club who had her arms and legs cut off and put on a table, with the "rich bitch" sign? It could be a trademark way of killing something a serial killer would do, or an army of serial killers..
In any case I hope they dont do a rich vs poor angle with the wolves being the poor.

I doubt it. The country club was it's own little thing where the staff wiped out the rich club members after they all holed up there.

[Wyldwraith]

@Trin:
I completely agree with you. I just conceded the possibility of those factors to their proponents to avoid getting bogged down in debating the relative physical health of Team Rick, when that wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

Personally (going to spoiler-tag just because this is the thread from the first episode) Seeing Team Rick suddenly staggering down the road, so weak they're overbalancing and almost falling while trying to shove Walkers around struck me as a bit absurd. As for the dehydration factor, with the others going off in the woods looking for streams/creeks etc....I have PERSONALLY marched over large sections of Georgia and southern Virginia, mostly while looking for feral pigs to blast away at, in some REALLY unforgiving brush. One thing I can tell you, in undeveloped areas of both states (by "undeveloped" I mean nothing built in the area but the road(s) running through it) you'd be hard-pressed to go twenty miles without finding a decent-sized creek, middling-sized stream, or one of the COUNTLESS watershed-assisting pond-lakes created by the Forestry Service.

The notion that DARYL of all people can't find a decent water-source is UTTERLY LAUGHABLE. The ONLY, and I do mean ONLY reason for them to be striking out on water is if the streams/creeks/ponds they ARE finding are visibly contaminated by dead bodies lying in them. Even that, if you want to get technical wouldn't render the water unusable, since boiling will kill damned near any form of nastiness you could find in water, but I'll concede that from a psychological perspective the survivors might not be able (at least at this point) to bring themselves to drink from such "contaminated" sources. Of course there comes a thirst-threshhold where no amount of foulness is going to stop humans from trying to purify the water and hydrate themselves. Thirst is a HIDEOUS way to die, and honestly it could drive someone so damned crazy that before they just lay down and die of dehydration I could easily see someone sticking their face in a creek with a body lying in full view ten feet upstream and just swilling the water down. Such is the power of thirst beyond that "X-threshold" ::shrugs::

[Trencher]

I agree that Daryl or anyone else for that matter should be able to find some water in that area but I chalked that up to it being a bad location. If they had filmed it in a place where all the trees were dead and such it would have been much more believable. The ground was pretty moist for a drought to be going on lol.

[Staredge]

My issue with Tyrese's death was this: IIRC, a walker moan was what called his attention to the back room, and caused him to head that way. C'mon....you've been doing this for three years, you HEAR a walker and you don't clear the room? I get the whole confusion about the pictures (sees the dead kid on the bed, sees pictures of him on the wall......wait.....why are there two???), but YOU HEARD A WALKER!!!!!! You know there's one in there somewhere.

[MinionZombie]

The active walker is behind a closed door, so I'm assuming Tyreese thought it was in a sealed room - and not what turned out to be a room connected by (by the looks of it) a shared bathroom. He goes into the boy's room and doesn't check the place properly, he sees the kid lying on the bed all dead and messed up, and then goes straight for the pictures which got him all caught up - the active walker then comes through, but it doesn't make a sound behind him until it's right on top of him so he gets grabbed/bit just as he's turning around.

They could have staged the scene better, I agree, but I'm not overly concerned either.

It's been 17 days since Beth, and even though they're not outwardly exhausted to the extent we later see them, they have a vehicle in this episode which makes a big difference. Also, some might be coping better than others, and it's the emotional toll that's the key player here ... in some ways I think Tyreese wanted to die ... indeed, he chose to let go and stop fighting to survive in the car (even if he would have likely died soon after from the loss of blood).

So, over the piece, a few tweaks to the staging would have been useful as well as a bit more visible exhaustion from them. However, these are also small tweaks, so it's not like the error in staging is gargantuan. They do get so many things right, it's fair to say.

[Trin]

I get what you're saying MZ, and I agree. It's a decent episode and when looked at as a staging error it's not gargantuan.

I'm just disappointed that the writers put that amount of effort into being artsy and made us scratch our heads at Tyreese dropping his guard in an obvious danger situation. It's like they were so intent on the irony of Tyreese getting bitten by the zombie brother (which, I mean as brother of Noah... not brother, brother.... you get it) that they forgot to make Tyreese's actions believable.

It's a nice testament to TWD that these WTF moments don't overshadow the enjoyment ... but they happen often, and when they happen it's very jarring. It can easily undermine an episode. And most of the time they are unnecessary WTF moments. As you said, with a few tweaks they'd be justified and believable.

Long story short, I don't want to see TWD win the GAR award for art over substance.

[MoonSylver]

If it'd been me, I wouldn't have had brother #2 make any noise, T only sees a pic of one (or the other, or not together) when proceeding through the house, sees #1 in the bed, then sees the pic of them together, has a "Oh shit, TWINS! Where's the other one!?!" reaction, starts to turn, reveal, bit.

Still plays 99% the same, but eliminates the wonky inconsistency of why he let his guard down KNOWING there was a walker in the house, & makes for a nice reveal & surprise to boot.

I kinda think that's what they were going for, but didn't set it up very well?

[triste realtà]

Long story short, I don't want to see TWD win the GAR award for art over substance.

TWD is very far away from being in danger of having either.

[MinionZombie]

If it'd been me, I wouldn't have had brother #2 make any noise, T only sees a pic of one (or the other, or not together) when proceeding through the house, sees #1 in the bed, then sees the pic of them together, has a "Oh shit, TWINS! Where's the other one!?!" reaction, starts to turn, reveal, bit.

Still plays 99% the same, but eliminates the wonky inconsistency of why he let his guard down KNOWING there was a walker in the house, & makes for a nice reveal & surprise to boot.

That would have been pretty much bang on, I think.

[Wyldwraith]

Eh,
I'm not so forgiving of the "The Walker was in a (supposedly) sealed room, so Tyreese understandably relaxed his guard" reasoning. The group has had dry-rotted doors collapse inward/outward dumping Walkers onto someone or multiple people, they're VERY accustomed to "straggler Walkers" that don't come on out immediately when they do their customary banging to draw any Walkers inside out to them, and most importantly, they know the community is infested with Walkers!

All of this more than suggests its unreasonable to believe that an experienced survivor would make such an elementary mistake. Yes, as I've said before, I "get it"...but just because they were shooting for an artsy send-off for Tyreese doesn't justify implausibility of an unrealistic level, at least for my tastes.

Don't get me wrong, there was a lot I found very compelling about the episode...but the Tyreese walker-ambush was so jarring to my sense of disbelief it immediately jerked me out of the narrative and dropped me mentally into Critic Mode.

[Publius]

As for the dehydration factor, with the others going off in the woods looking for streams/creeks etc....I have PERSONALLY marched over large sections of Georgia and southern Virginia, mostly while looking for feral pigs to blast away at, in some REALLY unforgiving brush. One thing I can tell you, in undeveloped areas of both states (by "undeveloped" I mean nothing built in the area but the road(s) running through it) you'd be hard-pressed to go twenty miles without finding a decent-sized creek, middling-sized stream, or one of the COUNTLESS watershed-assisting pond-lakes created by the Forestry Service

The notion that DARYL of all people can't find a decent water-source is UTTERLY LAUGHABLE.
That's what I was thinking when I watched 5x10, too. They're supposed to be somewhere between Richmond and DC now. I live in northern Virginia, pretty close to DC. Surface water is everywhere. It's really hard to believe they can't find any, especially with the reduced demand for water from people and agriculture.

[Wyldwraith]

@Publius:

Agreed. This whole lack-of-resources plot point has been stretched beyond the believable at this point, precisely because they (the writers) focused on water as the thing they're most in need of and don't have. Had they gone with food I could've bought it, but food doesn't have the immediacy that water has, causing the writers to depict an extremely wet area as some sort of wooded desert.

Heck, if nothing else the group could have been cutting up Prickly Pears (or storing them for transport for that matter) to extract water from. It's so easy anyone with a blade can do it. Cut in half, wrap cloth around cut prickly pear to avoid getting any of those hair-fine spines in your hand, leave the cut end exposed and squeeze like hell. It'll take a while, but you'll get two or three (small) mouthfuls of water out of each pear-pad. Prickly pears are everywhere in the Southeastern United States. That's just one example of easily accessible water. There's simply no way the group would be punch-drunk staggering dehydrated as they've been depicted. It's a plot device that wasn't well thought out, and again has been carried near to the point of absurdity at this juncture.

Edit: Also, regarding the area around Gabriel's church, I saw several palmetto thickets. If you dig down to the heart of a palmetto bush, you can dig out a few 2nd rate hearts of palm, which are both edible and contain the same sort of electrolyte-heavy water/milk as a coconut, albeit in smaller quantities. Said hearts of palm require next to no preservation, and can thus be tossed in a sack by the several dozen for a mobile reserve. Someone like Daryl, who lived in a moonshine shack for a significant period WOULD KNOW THAT.