TWD 5x13 "Forget" episode discussion... **SPOILERS WITHIN*

[MinionZombie]

Please keep all talk of episode 5x13 "Forget" specifically inside this thread.

If you have a theory for a following episode, please use the "spoiler tags" (visit the HPOTD FAQ to find out how to use them if you don't already know).

Similarly, if you're going to discuss plot points from the comic book, please use "spoiler tags" - not everyone is up-to-date on them, and some people don't read them at all.

Enjoy!


"Episode 5.13: Forget - "As Rick and the others continue to acclimate to their new surroundings, they consider a return to normalcy."

Directed by: David Boyd
Written by: Corey Reed

http://c534909.r9.cf2.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Walking-Dead-513-photo-01.jpg

[Cykotic]

at one point in the episode (during the dinner party), did anyone else hear christmas songs or am I off my meds again?

Also, does someone wanna explain that ending?

Really, what the frak just happened?

[facestabber]

at one point in the episode (during the dinner party), did anyone else hear christmas songs or am I off my meds again?

Also, does someone wanna explain that ending?

Really, what the frak just happened?

^ I'm on board with the WTF was that ending!!!!
Carol......My God. Ed's property/wife is long gone. First "look at the flowers" and now "lies and cookies or become a walker snack"

[Cykotic]

I'm also starting to wonder something.... Who is the real threat to Alexandria now?

The Walkers or Rick and the gang

[Moon Knight]

Carol wtf?? Man, I'm finding this whole situation really interesting. On one hand, Rick is right (The Watchtower really does need 24/7 guarding.) However, on the other, he's wrong. Is he really trying to "take" another man's wife? And that kiss lol talk about awkward. Once again, Aaron is proving why he's pretty awesome. If you can get through to Daryl the way he did you must be special. Daryl has a new bike!

Last week I thought Spencer had been replaced but looks like he's in after all.

RIP Buttons.

[Harleydude666]

Regarding the Rick kiss. I think people are over-thinking it. He's been on the road for years now, lost his wife in a gruesome manner, hasn't had ass in I don't know how long, almost lost his life and his kids life numerous times and has had to make gut wrenching decisions at every turn. I agree, he likes this chick and feels something for her, but I don't think he did it to start something(at that moment anyway), I think he just had a weak moment and had a very vulnerable lust induced moment with everything he's been through. Jessica is the first pure thing Rick has encountered in the closest thing to a real world he has found thus far.
Think about it, have you ever had a weak moment, maybe when you're drunk or something and made a pass at someone out of lust, someone you shouldn't have made a pass at? It's happened to me and you wish you didn't do it but you still enjoyed that moment, nevertheless and still wished something happened? And it's not like he slipped her the toungue, he kissed her on the cheek. And I'm not making light of it, I'm sure Rick at that moment wished her husband wasn't in the picture, but I'm also sure he knew he slipped up and knew he showed his vulnerability by mistake

[Moon Knight]

Regarding the Rick kiss. I think people are over-thinking it. He's been on the road for years now, lost his wife in a gruesome manner, hasn't had ass in I don't know how long, almost lost his life and his kids life numerous times and has had to make gut wrenching decisions at every turn. I agree, he likes this chick and feels something for her, but I don't think he did it to start something(at that moment anyway), I think he just had a weak moment and had a very vulnerable lust induced moment with everything he's been through. Jessica is the first pure thing Rick has encountered in the closest thing to a real world he has found thus far.
Think about it, have you ever had a weak moment, maybe when you're drunk or something and made a pass at someone out of lust, someone you shouldn't have made a pass at? It's happened to me and you wish you didn't do it but you still enjoyed that moment, nevertheless and still wished something happened? And it's not like he slipped her the toungue, he kissed her on the cheek. And I'm not making light of it, I'm sure Rick at that moment wished her husband wasn't in the picture, but I'm also sure he knew he slipped up and knew he showed his vulnerability by mistake

I agree. I just took it as Rick out of character but not in a badly written way. I was more shocked the way he went for his gun as Jesse and Peter walked on by; an interesting and disturbing callback to Shane.

[MinionZombie]

A really interesting episode here from a character stand point - particularly the Aaron/Daryl portion - whereby he found a way to talk to Daryl, get some common ground ... in Alexandria they're both outsiders (albeit Daryl moreso). Indeed, "Buttons" the horse was a metaphor for Daryl and he realised that he can't just keep running, he's got to accept the situation he's in - that even though he'd not traditionally find himself in such a place pre-ZA, here he is and people want him there. Good that he's got a purpose now and they they managed to include Daryl's awkwardness in Alexandria, but in a way that was swiftly dealt with.

In many ways it does feel like Sasha is becoming the new Andrea, and it's going to be Sasha who struggles the most to cope with this new place. In some ways the tower is the right place for her now - just on the outskirts without being surrounded by all this strangeness (and concerns about cooking the right dish for the right person) - but on the other hand it's also potentially a problem by just enabling her troubles with fitting in to the Alexandria way of life. It'll be interesting to see where that goes with her.

Randy Rick totally wants to pork Jessie ... so it seems a Rick/Michonne hook up is unlikely then, which is a bit of a bugger, but at the same time I suppose it makes more sense dramatically for a sort of Rick/Jessie thing (or "thaaang") to go with as it's mixing two different groups together with a sexual yearning, but a Rick vs Pete showdown potentially. To be fair he had had a couple of drinks, and a sexy lady comes walking in holding your baby as if she was her mother, and things are liable to get a bit blurred ... however I think Jessie liked it too. She knows it's wrong, but clearly there's trouble with Pete's drinking, and heck - let's be honest - beardless Rick is 'totes hawt' ;) ... so I'd imagine there'll be some naughtiness going on between those two sometime soon.

As for the ending - it's a strange kind of one stylistically - but I think it's about accepting this new way of life, but that there's danger right there waiting for them ... that it's kind of a mirage in a way and that sooner or later they'll see Alexandria in a different light for whatever reason. They're getting on-side, but the place is at risk ... particularly as they took down a walker with a "W" carved into its forehead (remember the truck load of walker torsos outside Noah's old stomping grounds?)

Something's out there...


RIP Buttons.

If you're a horse on TWD you're gonna have a bad time. :D


I agree. I just took it as Rick out of character but not in a badly written way. I was more shocked the way he went for his gun as Jesse and Peter walked on by; an interesting and disturbing callback to Shane.

I disagree - I think what that moment was saying was Rick was questioning his approach, the whole "we'll just take it" attitude (particularly after Daryl - of all people - said he was good with the place now). He'd smuggled out this gun with Carol and now he's thinking "did I/we need to have done this?" ... that's how I read it.

...

TWD 5x13 Memes:
http://deadshed.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/randy-rick-edition-walking-dead-5x13.html



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-EOS8SqIyLJM/VP3Pny_i6sI/AAAAAAAADwU/99c8pR7u78w/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Carol_Sam_Cookies_O r_Death_5x13_DeadShed.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-K4V935e_pfM/VP3Pnwoxb9I/AAAAAAAADwY/v1cBU26Dxlg/s1600/The_Walking_Dead_Season_5_Meme_Player_Rick_Jessie_ Pete_Husband_Wife_What_Up_5x13_DeadShed.jpg

[Wyldwraith]

Not really,
The stamped A being used as a community-identifier obviously has Rick disturbed. Could it be because of the significant number of Walkers they've found with W's on them? There could be absolutely no connection between the A's and the W's, but Rick (and the others) are still leery of this place in a "too good to be true" sense. That uncertainty/unease would have me thinking LONG AND HARD about even a POSSIBLE A & W connection. Especially since I get the sense that the A-stamps have more societal significance for these people than Rick and the others have been lead to believe. Think about it, a kid comes up to you and, in the ingenuous manner of children points out Rick doesn't have a stamp and says he should have one. Rick goes sure, gets stamped. Then the very next morning two of his new neighbors brandish their stamped hands by way of greeting, as if it were the most natural thing in the world for them to do. Wouldn't that creep YOU out in Rick's place.

Plus, with all this talk of insiders and outsiders, there's a certain air of exclusivity bordering on a sort of xenophobia. All in all, were I Rick or any member of his group for that matter, with the awful experiences with Woodbury, the Governor's 2nd "army" and the Terminians behind me, I would be VERY LEERY of this town and of its leader most especially. Her "give-with-a-catch" style reminds me VERY MUCH of Dawn....Oh sure, she talks a better game than Dawn...but didn't the Governor weave a his-shit-doesn't-stink spell with words at first too? As support for my contention as to Rick's line of thinking, look what he told the community leader. "It's people, not Walkers, that are the biggest danger now." Now yes, in context one could say (and be correct in saying) that Rick was speaking of potential invaders at that moment. However, I don't think it too much of a stretch to believe there was a double-meaning to those words. Especially given that Team Rick's mistrust still went far enough to be filching guns from the Armory.

Also, something bothers me about the community leader being so strongly against the citizenry being armed. What Rick told her is true, after all. One explosion that opens up a breach in that wall by some folks up to no good, who also happened to adopt the Governor's Walkers-as-weapons tactic by luring a major herd to the area just as the wall breach was created and that community could have a mass of Walkers inside the walls before they hardly understood they were under attack.

[MinionZombie]

A random thing I noticed in the background of one shot in the episode - a street sign with "Morgan" on it.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?!?!?!?! ;):lol::D

Joking aside, whether it was intentional or not, I smiled at that ... still wanna know how/when/why/where Morgan will come into it after those couple of teasy teases in 5A.

[shootemindehead]

Yeh, noticed that myself. Though at first I thought it said Negan!

ha ha...

BTW, was it a a "W" or an "M" on the zombie's head. Is a certain somebody possibly trying to communicate something?

[Moon Knight]

Yeh, noticed that myself. Though at first I thought it said Negan!

ha ha...

BTW, was it a a "W" or an "M" on the zombie's head. Is a certain somebody possibly trying to communicate something?

Pretty sure it's a "W" because it mirrored exactly what the Shire Will Estate Walker heads had carved in.

[Buzzbomb]

I think the 'A-stamp' reminded Rick of the container they were trapped in at Terminus...

Enjoyed the episode, but where have Tara, Gabriel & Eugene gone?

[facestabber]

Pretty sure it's a "W" because it mirrored exactly what the Shire Will Estate Walker heads had carved in.

You're probably right but maybe we are reading it wrong. After the Walker fell the camera focused on the carving looking top down and it was an "M"

[Moon Knight]

You're probably right but maybe we are reading it wrong. After the Walker fell the camera focused on the carving looking top down and it was an "M"

I wouldn't be surprised my friend.

- - - Updated - - -


I think the 'A-stamp' reminded Rick of the container they were trapped in at Terminus...

Enjoyed the episode, but where have Tara, Gabriel & Eugene gone?

By the look of the preview....

They play a pretty important role next episode.

[MinionZombie]

I think the 'A-stamp' reminded Rick of the container they were trapped in at Terminus...

Aye, I noticed that ... although I'm not convinced we can read anything sinister into it ... I'd say it's more like a school grading system "A", so it's Sam's way of saying that someone is okay by his estimation (I don't think he's a cog in a conspiracy, I just think it's a kid thing and that's about it). I did find that moment quite sweet in a way - to see Rick dealing with an innocent kid who isn't one of his own, getting to engage 'father mode' in a traditional everyday setting, it gave us a little glimpse at a pre-ZA Rick Grimes ... which, in another way, is quite sad when you think about it, considering all he's been through and has had to do.


You're probably right but maybe we are reading it wrong. After the Walker fell the camera focused on the carving looking top down and it was an "M"

They did make a point about showing the 'upside down it looks like an "M" and not a "W" ... ooooooh!' ... ... but knowing how tricksy Gimple et al are with these sort of things, you have to wonder if they're just messing with us, that it really is a "W" ... ... but then when you think about it, if you were going to carve a letter into a walker's head it would be safer to have someone pin it down by sitting on top of them and then position yourself in a sort of 'Spider-Man kiss' orientation and carve the letter in that way (i.e. your wrists wouldn't be dangling over a pair of gnashing chompers).

So maybe it is "M" ... maybe it stands for "Morgan" ... maybe Morgan has gone batshit crazy in his pursuit of Rick Grimes (the kudzu growth in 5x01 suggested he wasn't exactly hot on their heels) ... maybe it's the post-ZA method of sending a text message ... illuminati confirmed! :D

Anything's possible at this point ... but maybe they're just doing it to screw with us. Consider me sufficiently teased Mr Gimple. :sneaky:

[DayoftheZ]

Another good episode, although as an animal lover I could have done without the horse being eaten (I still have to fast forward through the horse kill in “Days Gone Bye”).
I liked how it all felt so relaxed and how all of a sudden I felt comfortable that our characters were safe. It gives the viewer the feeling of complacency that Team Rick is concerned about. That in turn will also give up a kick in the stomach if anything goes wrong.

I liked the whole Daryl and Aaron Eric exchange and it makes sense getting him out into the real world to let off some steam and release some aggression. I enjoyed Ricks integration with the hot safe zoner, give him layers because he has been a little one dimensional with being the angry group leader.

I am not sure about how I feel about Carol going crazy on the kid. I know she has done some screwed up stuff but she generally cares about kids and that seemed a little off. She came across as having Governor like qualities there and I don’t think the “good guys” should be doing that.

Eager to see the next episode yet again.

[facestabber]

I was thinking the "A" stamp was for Alexandria. I immediately recalled rail car "a" of the termites. Not sure how aware Rick was at the time of Terminus that he was placed in rail car "A" . It would be interesting to hear Andrew Lincolns take on that scene. Maybe it's a nod to Hester Pryne and the Scarlet Letter. It's ironic that Rick and Jessie have adultery on their minds and are both stamped with "A".

[MinionZombie]

I was thinking the "A" stamp was for Alexandria. I immediately recalled rail car "a" of the termites. Maybe it's a nod to Hester Pryne and the Scarlet Letter. It's ironic that Rick and Jessie have adultery on their minds and are both stamped with "A".

Ooh yeah, that's a good catch. :)

Aye - Alexandria/A.

As for Carol - to be fair she's only just scaring the kid into not telling his mother about what she was doing as the repercussions could be severe ... she wouldn't genuinely do that, it's all a bluff ... ... but yes, she was extraordinarily vivid in her description. :lol:

[Moon Knight]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced it's not an "M", I mean, would Morgan kill off an entire small community and carve everyone up? I know he's crazy but c'mon haha.

I loved Carol's scene with Sam. The kid showed great fear and his expression sold the hell out of it. I don't think its out of character because I feel she wouldn't really harm the kid. Put a bit of real world fear into him to protect her and the group? Sure, why not. We all know she likes to toughen up the youth.

[facestabber]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced it's not an "M", I mean, would Morgan kill off an entire small community and carve everyone up? I know he's crazy but c'mon haha.

I loved Carol's scene with Sam. The kid showed great fear and his expression sold the hell out of it. I don't think its out of character because I feel she wouldn't really harm the kid. Put a bit of real world fear into him to protect her and the group? Sure, why not. We all know she likes to toughen up the youth.

I truly hope when we finally see Morgan he has "cleared" and come to his senses/found peace with himself. The reunion of Morgan and Rick could be one hell of an emotional hope builder. I'm not sure what Lenny James is up to but I hope he becomes a regular. I will add that regardless of Morgan's mental state from "Clear" I can't see him carving M's onto Walkers. I hope the writers give us fans the above mentioned reunion. The fans deserve it.

[shootemindehead]

I must have missed the other zombies with carving son so, cos that's the first time I've seen it.

As for Carol, she's probably my favorite Walking Dead character now. Whatsherface has done a great job with her. I don't know if it was the kids acting, but she sure made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Cool scene.

[facestabber]

Not really,
The stamped A being used as a community-identifier obviously has Rick disturbed. Could it be because of the significant number of Walkers they've found with W's on them? There could be absolutely no connection between the A's and the W's, but Rick (and the others) are still leery of this place in a "too good to be true" sense. That uncertainty/unease would have me thinking LONG AND HARD about even a POSSIBLE A & W connection. Especially since I get the sense that the A-stamps have more societal significance for these people than Rick and the others have been lead to believe. Think about it, a kid comes up to you and, in the ingenuous manner of children points out Rick doesn't have a stamp and says he should have one. Rick goes sure, gets stamped. Then the very next morning two of his new neighbors brandish their stamped hands by way of greeting, as if it were the most natural thing in the world for them to do. Wouldn't that creep YOU out in Rick's place.

Plus, with all this talk of insiders and outsiders, there's a certain air of exclusivity bordering on a sort of xenophobia. All in all, were I Rick or any member of his group for that matter, with the awful experiences with Woodbury, the Governor's 2nd "army" and the Terminians behind me, I would be VERY LEERY of this town and of its leader most especially. Her "give-with-a-catch" style reminds me VERY MUCH of Dawn....Oh sure, she talks a better game than Dawn...but didn't the Governor weave a his-shit-doesn't-stink spell with words at first too? As support for my contention as to Rick's line of thinking, look what he told the community leader. "It's people, not Walkers, that are the biggest danger now." Now yes, in context one could say (and be correct in saying) that Rick was speaking of potential invaders at that moment. However, I don't think it too much of a stretch to believe there was a double-meaning to those words. Especially given that Team Rick's mistrust still went far enough to be filching guns from the Armory.

Also, something bothers me about the community leader being so strongly against the citizenry being armed. What Rick told her is true, after all. One explosion that opens up a breach in that wall by some folks up to no good, who also happened to adopt the Governor's Walkers-as-weapons tactic by luring a major herd to the area just as the wall breach was created and that community could have a mass of Walkers inside the walls before they hardly understood they were under attack.

I meant to respond to this earlier but you are right on Wylde. Politicians always have angles. They are willing to give but the question is what does one have to give up to receive their "generosity". I see the writers have stirred up the American 2nd Amendment debate within our show. Its a debate that gets heated so just in keeping it to Alexandria, would any of the posters here not want to carry a gun in that environment? And regarding Deanna's expelled members, revenge is one hell of a motivator when there is nothing left to society.

[DayoftheZ]

Randy Rick totally wants to pork Jessie ... so it seems a Rick/Michonne hook up is unlikely then, which is a bit of a bugger

Comic spoiler BEWARE.

I reckon Michonne will hook up with Abe in a replacement for Holly in the comics

[MinionZombie]

I truly hope when we finally see Morgan he has "cleared" and come to his senses/found peace with himself. The reunion of Morgan and Rick could be one hell of an emotional hope builder. I'm not sure what Lenny James is up to but I hope he becomes a regular. I will add that regardless of Morgan's mental state from "Clear" I can't see him carving M's onto Walkers. I hope the writers give us fans the above mentioned reunion. The fans deserve it.

Aye ... the "is the W not a W but a M instead?" nod/wink in the episode is probably a classic bit of TWD red herring play ... even though it was just two glimpses, Morgan did seem much more straight-headed than he was the last time we saw him (when he was pretty screwed up in the old noggin) ... so it's extremely unlikely the "W" is actually an "M" ... ... just a fun little 'what if' theory to ponder.

DayZ, on your observation:

Hmmm ... perhaps, although there's been very little contact between those two characters, so it'd be a surprise if they did that ... then again it could just be a random hook up ... I'm not sure if they'll bother with the angle of Abraham having it away with a Holly substitute ... unless there's another member of Alexandria we've not yet been introduced to who happens to be Holly.

[DayoftheZ]

DayZ, on your observation:

There was a slight interaction last night and I could actually see them working on screen. They may avoid it because that particular story became a bit soap opera in the comics, but Michonne was a right player in the comics and hasnt had any action yet!!!:D

[Neil]

As for the ending - it's a strange kind of one stylistically - but I think it's about accepting this new way of life, but that there's danger right there waiting for them ... that it's kind of a mirage in a way and that sooner or later they'll see Alexandria in a different light for whatever reason. They're getting on-side, but the place is at risk ... particularly as they took down a walker with a "W" carved into its forehead (remember the truck load of walker torsos outside Noah's old stomping grounds?)
I actually took it as showing the group almost miss their previous life style? They knew who they were "out there" and simply the walkers had to be killed. No complixity. No reasoning or anyone else to think about or trust? - It was simple!

Now they're trying to adapt to this new, somewhat false existance from the past, and almost miss the walkers in someways...

That final scene was showing that?




Now to other matters? The letters? What do the letters mean? :) *no comic spoilers please if they are applicable*

- - - Updated - - -


As for Carol, she's probably my favorite Walking Dead character now. Whatsherface has done a great job with her. I don't know if it was the kids acting, but she sure made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

Cool scene.

I wonder if even Andy is starting to warm to her yet? :)

[MinionZombie]

Neil - quite possibly - I think the ending means a whole variety of things and can be read legitimately in several different ways.

As for the letter "A", I feel it doesn't mean anything more than "Alexandria" / "A Grade" in Sam's personal estimation, but it's supposed to make us think it does means something, even though I believe it ultimately doesn't ... even if it does have a thematic link with Terminus and the "W".

Also, we saw "X" symbols inside circles in 5x01 (Morgan saw them on the trees, and the ghastly bearded thug inside that train car had one drawn/tattooed to the side of his face among other markings).

Oooooooohhhhhh...

I wonder if/I hope that ties in somehow. :shifty:

[shootemindehead]

I wonder if even Andy is starting to warm to her yet? :)

Well, let's not go too far Neil.

[Moon Knight]

I don't think "A" means anything other than "Alexandria". The markings on the trees I just took as The Hunters marking landmarks so they can find their way. However, the same marking on that crazy bearded dude? It was the hunter's mark again, imo. Finally, the "W" is obviously for the wolves. Of course, I could be wrong. Hell, it's The Walking Dead of course I probably am.

[Publius]

Buttons!!

Noooooooo!!!!!

1372

[AcesandEights]

So Aaron and Daryl had one hell of a...
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/DougOBrien/ba67e527effc327542bdeb5cdec3d7f5.jpg_zpsveix2dql.g if
Shared moment.

I think Kirkman doth protest too much. :p

[Wyldwraith]

Problems I see with Alexandria are PROFOUND:
1) Disarming the citizenry. The Zombie Apocalypse being the Zombie Apocalypse, sooner or later a significant breach by a significant # of Walkers is bound to occur. It's easy to say "We have a centralized Armory, we'll dispense firearms as needed." Yet in the chaos of Walkers bearing people to the ground, blood geysering as the victims scream their lives away, panic would be endemic. Also, by de-acclimating the citizenry to firearms on a daily basis, said citizenry would be nothing but panicked sheep in a crisis, leaving the defense to all-too-few like Rick, Michonne and Daryl.

2) This is THE PROBLEM really: Alexandria is another attempt to wall out reality and return to a pre-zombie apocalypse footing. Such attempts will continue to fail so long as substantial numbers of Walkers remain ambulatory, and substantial numbers of surviving humans behave like the Claimers, the Terminians, and whoever breached Noah's home community. Any successful restart of "civilization" MUST (and I don't use absolutist terms like "must" lightly) INCORPORATE the reality of the Zombie Apocalypse, and not simply try to create systematic logistics meant to neatly divide "Walker Infested Badlands/Ruins of Former Civilization" from "Cordoned-off area wherein humans return to pre-Zombie Apocalypse lifestyles.

Trying to create such a division is an INCREDIBLE TEMPTATION, absolutely. These people have been living like sentient RATS to put it bluntly. Scavenging, scurrying away from danger, claiming territory when strong and when their #'s are high for immediate use (much like a rats' warren). OF COURSE a return to running water, electricity and sleeping on mattresses covered by decent-threadcount sheets with fluffy pillows...and not SEEMING as if one has to worry about being eaten or killed for your supplies at any moment sounds like Heaven to people who've been what ALL those Survivors have been through, not just Team Rick. The problem is that attempting to compartmentalize the apocalypse to allow for a facsimile of pre-Apocalypse life leads the population into patterns of behavior incompatible with long-term survival in said Apocalypse. THE Prime Example being the Mayor putting Rick and Michonne in police uniforms, and charging them and only a small minority with community defense.

How's that a problem, you might ask? Ok, let's say that the group which demolished Noah's home community finds their way to Alexandria. To man the wall surrounding the town versus a HUMAN threat would take sentries positioned no further apart than the distance where out of (for example) three sentries, all three can see each other. Team Rick and the Terminians both demonstrated that homemade silencers aren't truly difficult to fashion (good for at least a couple shots anyway). Any less sentry density and all it would take is two raiders with rifles + said homemade silencers picking a nice place of concealment, each one takes aim at a different sentry, they count down 3-2-1 and boom. Both sentries dead and no one on watch immediately aware of what just happened. In the time it takes the other Alexandrian sentries to realize what's happened, any # of raiders could already be over the patch of now-unguarded wall. Now you've got potentially 7-10 heavily armed psychopaths running around Alexandria AT NIGHT.

So how many people PER SHIFT would it take JUST to maintain effective anti-human defense of the town Wall's perimeter? A few DOZEN? It's unworkable. The whole town would be nothing but sentry-shifts, and nothing else getting done. Are there much more effective and EFFICIENT means of guarding a walled Perimeter? Absolutely. But Alexandria is so complacent that the church belltower is only "occasionally" occupied...and the Mayor is playing politics with Sasha, who offered to man said tower on lookout as much as she's physically able. And that's it right there. Allowing the majority of the populace to feel safe from the Apocalypse in a practical day-to-day sense will create a similar sort of complacency as the far larger complacency that allowed Walkers to overrun the world IN THE FIRST PLACE.

So what's the alternative then? Create a society that EMBRACES REALITY, instead of trying to shut it out and forget about it. I read a short-story in the Fiction Section of this site that really stuck with me. It described a community where dozens of well-trained Survivors dedicate themselves to luring dozens of zombies at a time away from the human settlement where the women of childbearing age, the children, the old and the infirm live. Said "Scouts" are all about systematically terminating zombies in ways that use the zombies weaknesses against them, while not consuming resources. An example being luring a pursuing herd to a nice sturdy tree, climbing up into a safe vantage, and them systematically stabbing them in the heads one by one with a SPEAR until they're all destroyed. With at first dozens, and later hundreds of such operatives working outside the community, they ever so slowly begin to turn the force of attrition in favor of humanity, while all the while keeping the home base where new "soldiers" are being bred and trained safe, allowing for a steadily-increasing pool of "soldiers" working outside the community over time.

I'm NOT saying that this system exactly is what the Survivors in TWD universe should do...but the system I just described has the major advantage of having been designed to CONFRONT AND (eventually) ULTIMATELY RESOLVE the reality of the zombie apocalypse as opposed to trying to just hide from it.

Put another way: Why do the tactics the humans used in Night of the Living Dead always fail? It's not just because of humans fighting amongst themselves, that just hastened their deaths. It's because such a defense allows the undead to bring their few strengths to bear against human weaknesses. They can relentlessly tear boards off windows and doors because we either run out of usable wood, nails to secure said wood in place...or ultimately (even if we had infinite supplies of both) because they can keep battering away at the structure seeking entry, while humans have to rest. So how do you survive? You flip the script, and do what the Barbara from the Night Remake did. You take action that puts human strengths up against the zombies weaknesses.

At its most basic, any community with any long-term future in TWD universe is going to be one that embraces this principle, coupled with an effective system for 1) Warding off complacency and 2) Also maintaining an anti-human defense so strong that it deters raiders just as soon as they give the place a first look. Two people in cop uniforms and 3-4 volunteers wandering the top of Alexandria's wall with rifles does none of these things.

Edit: For those interested, the story I referenced from the Fiction Section is titled A Day In The Life Of...
It's on Page 4, Living Dead, Story 158.

[Neil]

^ a+ :)

[AcesandEights]

Excellent insights and summation, Wyld!

[Wyldwraith]

Thanks guys,
Maybe one can call it nitpicking (I'm not gonna make that call) but...personally, I'm getting TIRED of these "Pre-Apocalypse Pattern Civilization Reboot-Attempts" in TWD. Just how many times do the walls have to come down, 50+% of the population get eaten/shot, and the remaining 49% (or less) which survives get wildly dispersed for these people to realize Walls + A tiny minority of your population working as Security will ALWAYS = (Eventually) Walls down, over half the population dead, and the rest scattered with the clothes on their back and the gear in their hands?

I mean C'MON, humanity took the #1 rung on the evolutionary ladder because we were the MOST ADAPTABLE species, NOT the STRONGEST. The message forming and beginning to permeate every particle of TWD is "Ignore every instance of human history wherein humanity successfully changed lifestyles to adapt to a radically altered environment, build or co-opt pre-existing walls and hide behind them with dwindling non-renewable stockpiles of firearms and ammunition."

That is NOT a plan for humanity's survival. That's not even a plan for a lone community's survival. It's a simplistic fear-driven refusal to look at the reality of their situation and change their behavior in such a way so as to afford themselves opportunities to begin building up to re-taking control of the environment around them.

Here's the absolute coup de grace of my argument. Let's say I'm COMPLETELY WRONG, and a) The walls NEVER FALL, b) No sizable or halfway competent group of human raiders EVER show up to contest Alexandria's claim to their resources, and c) Every single plan and activity Alexandria currently has in the works succeeds beyond anyone's wildest expectations.

Know what you get? 3-5 years from now, and 12-15 mega-herds capable of toppling the walls by sheer body mass if not neutralized later, you have a community out of bullets and waiting for Mega Herd #13, 14, 15 or 16 to show up and THEN topple the walls and eat everyone, because no one in Alexandria has any significant means of disposing of hundreds of Walkers at a time that DOESN'T involve burning through ammunition as if its a never-ending resource like grains of sand on the beach.

The Prison fences looked really nice when there were only 3-5 Walkers at any given time pushing on a given 25-foot cross-section of fencing too. Not so much when Walker density reached maximum saturation PLUS 5 rows deep more just waiting for their turn at the fence. Even had the fences supernaturally held, I submit that the lengths of METAL REBAR, along with every OTHER melee weapon in the Prison would've worn out, and there would STILL have been Walkers 5 rows deep at the fence. Might've taken years, but Walkers aren't rotting and they aren't getting bored.

Again, it's simply a bigger version of "Board up the NotLD-house and hope for the best."

[shootemindehead]

Not disagreeing with what you've said there, but we have to remember that it took humans a long, long time to climb to the top of the food chain and we're just a year and a half, or whatever, into the zombie apocalypse. So, it's really only the baby steps yet.

But, regarding civvie rebooting, I reckon there'd be a LOT of that going on in small enclaves after an...um..."extinction event" like this. There would be too many people wanting to "get back to the way things were" an unable to adapt to the way things are.

I certainly agree that the "no guns" policy of Alexandria is a bit silly, considering what lays outside and even if this particular group has had an extremely easy ride that, in fairness, has seriously clouded their judgement, I simply cannot see a "no guns" policy being in effect in any kind of zombie apocalypse village. Common sense, alone, would dictate the need to be on ones guard at all times. They don't even post lookouts? Something not right there.

But we've just entered Alexandria and haven't seen anything substantial of it yet. Maybe there's a valid reason why the boss girl has restricted there use. There might have been an insurrection attempt of some sort before, resulting in the near overthrow of the place, who knows. She has mentioned expelling people to the outside that "didn't work out". But, I really hope the show addresses that in some way. Otherwise, it's simply down to bad writing again.

Lastly, regarding "walls coming down", unfortunately that's simply a zombie trope that one has to get on with if we're to enjoy this genre. Eventually the walls have to come down by some means, otherwise, it's happy ever after, or as about as happy ever after as one could get in that kind of world.

And that's the end of the show...

[Buzzbomb]

Keeping the guns under central control would help ration the use of ammunition & prevent the kind of damage that could occur if one of the residents couldn't take it anymore & decided to go on a killing spree... probably an unlikely scenario, but I'd image suicide rates might increase in a post apocalyptic world where you're living in a goldfish bowl.

I agree with Wyld's comments, but remember this is a drama TV show, so survivors behaving rationally & making sensible choices is not (unfortunately) likely to happen...

It would be nice to see the humans start taking control.

[Publius]

Problems I see with Alexandria are PROFOUND:
1) Disarming the citizenry. The Zombie Apocalypse being the Zombie Apocalypse, sooner or later a significant breach by a significant # of Walkers is bound to occur. It's easy to say "We have a centralized Armory, we'll dispense firearms as needed." Yet in the chaos of Walkers bearing people to the ground, blood geysering as the victims scream their lives away, panic would be endemic. Also, by de-acclimating the citizenry to firearms on a daily basis, said citizenry would be nothing but panicked sheep in a crisis, leaving the defense to all-too-few like Rick, Michonne and Daryl.
Yes, I complained about this in last episode's thread. I can see a community foolishly adopting a rule like this--especially one headed by a pre-outbreak politician. But I can't see Rick's group placidly accepting a rule like this. Like you observed, they KNOW better, from repeated experience.

[MinionZombie]

Yes, I complained about this in last episode's thread. I can see a community foolishly adopting a rule like this--especially one headed by a pre-outbreak politician. But I can't see Rick's group placidly accepting a rule like this. Like you observed, they KNOW better, from repeated experience.

And I'd imagine that things will soon change ... we've only just got to Alexandria, after all.

Plus there are people in all walks of life who make foolish or unwise decisions for all sorts of reasons - every day we see people on the news, in viral videos, on social media, at work, etc etc etc, doing stupid things without realising it, or blundering forth with a plan of action that they firmly believe to be right when some of those around them disagree. How often do you sit there in front of the TV effin' and jeffin' over some bone-headed action by a celebrity or politician who should really know better? All the ruddy time, that's how often.

It'd be completely unrealistic for everyone to make the perfect decision at all times as events are unfolding around them in real time.

Even renowned tacticians make mistakes.

Alexandria's had a soft time of it out of a conflation of lucky circumstances and have witnessed very little of the reality of how things have changed beyond their walls (while, by comparison, Rick's group have had a torturous amount of bad luck) - but guaranteed that luck isn't going to last much longer. I'd say by season's end something is going to go - or start going - arse over tit.

[Wyldwraith]

See I have a hard time with putting it down to luck at this point,
Luck lets you walk down a suburban street and run into a man and his son before a Walker. It DOESN'T keep an idiot alive for 18+ months. Nature has never suffered fools gladly, and that was BEFORE armies of ambulatory corpses with a taste for human flesh were roaming about.

Alexandria has been steadily recruiting from outside, so it's not just a cluster of luckily cloistered and undisturbed people who have so far hid out from the zombie apocalypse. A significant % of its population have been "Out There" and knows whats up, else they wouldn't have survived long enough to meet an Alexandrian recruiter.

Remember the hippie couple Rick & Carol ran into? That's an example of people riding a wave of luck to stay alive...and what happened to them? Answer: Their luck ran out. People like the hippie couple don't live long enough to find a place like Alexandria...or be found by someone from there.

And yes, I get the whole "It's a dramatic TV show, walls have to come down or it gets boring etc etc" argument. I'm just saying that a trope is not some kind of Absolute Cinematic Law like gravity. Tropes can change if you get enough creative people with the guts to do something different making successes of a certain # of projects they're a part of. TWD is an excellent opportunity to begin breaking away from the "Fort Up and Wait It Out" mentality endemic to the zombie genre.

[facestabber]

In regards to Alexandria, it is beyond flawed. Wyld has pointed it out extremely well. Where I find peace with the story is by diving into Michonne's mind and statements. Michonne seemed to have reached a point where surviving just to survive was no longer sustainable( "We need this, and we're going"). Her katana wielding, walker decapitating badassery makes for a great show for us audience members to watch but Michonne is worn out. I think what she was saying is that she has reached a point where she is willing to trade in some security for a chance to live a little bit. Laugh. Smile. Inside she fully acknowledges that her defenses are down and if she does fall victim, so be it. At least she tried to find some happiness. I can relate to that. Being on guard 24/7 and struggling day to day just to live can be a burden. Make no mistake about it our group of survivors have wanted to live and hence they are still around. The question is at what cost are you willing to sacrifice to live?

[shootemindehead]

And yes, I get the whole "It's a dramatic TV show, walls have to come down or it gets boring etc etc" argument. I'm just saying that a trope is not some kind of Absolute Cinematic Law like gravity. Tropes can change if you get enough creative people with the guts to do something different making successes of a certain # of projects they're a part of. TWD is an excellent opportunity to begin breaking away from the "Fort Up and Wait It Out" mentality endemic to the zombie genre.

But, in what way though?

Something has to facilitate the "walking away" from a specific enclave, otherwise, as I said earlier, the show sort of ends. Plus the eventual victory of the dead (directly or by proxy) over any human camp or fortification is essential to the zombie genre itself. It's entirely indicative of their unrelenting and unstoppable nature, no? Without the collapse of a given fort, the situation remains in stasis and that wouldn't really make for an entertaining show.

I've always thought it was one of the most chilling aspects of Romero's universe that his films end with the dead victorious, even if they utterly lack the ability to comprehend that victory. They don't even know how they got there. They are a mindless, destructive, vehicle. It's the thing that makes something like a zombie apocalypse such an horrific scenario, in that there is no good ending to it. Humanity is buggered, no matter how hard we try.

As far as luck is concerned though, there's no time limit there, or patterns. Some people are lucky at the right time, a lot of the time. Luck is completely random. Also, inevitably (as this is 'The Walking Dead') I think it's safe to say that luck is going to run out for the people Alexandria real soon.

:D

[Publius]

But, in what way though?

Something has to facilitate the "walking away" from a specific enclave, otherwise, as I said earlier, the show sort of ends.
It's possible to imagine plenty of threats that could overwhelm any small community, no matter how well-prepared, without relying on contrived stupidity. Facestabber's rationalization makes a fair amount of sense, though.

[Wyldwraith]

That's the thing though,
I'm not saying that a walled enclave in and of itself is a bad thing. I'm just saying that an experienced survivor of a zombie apocalypse, who has been through more than one Walls-Come-Down scenarios should know that a walled enclave is "Step 1" of building a survivable situation, it is not the end-all defense. There has to be some coming to grips with the fact the zombies are out there, and something has to be done about that. If they aren't going to rot, they're going to have to be destroyed, at least locally and in significant enough numbers so as to significantly depress the undead presence in the area surrounding your enclave.

Steps along those lines: Ring Alexandria with pit traps, and have crews eliminate and empty said pits when they reach capacity. Snagging-type obstacles of the sort Morgan utilized in "Clear" would also be highly effective at breaking up the undead biomass and keep it from reaching the critical mass required to just roll over a wall. A wall is passive, what they need construction-wise aren't simply more walls (though I do support a second layer of wall ringing the first) they need construction that a) Breaks up a herd into significantly smaller units, and b) Assist in the elimination of significant #'s of Walkers without the use of bullets.

I have NEVER accepted that the Inevitable Undead Victory is an absolutely necessary component of the genre. Just like slasher films have their heroine (and sometimes hero)...there must be room for the survivors who "get it right" to be shown as reaping the harvest of continued survival that their actions warrant. Not in a happily-ever-after sense, but in a "For now, but the struggle continues" sense. Romero chose to highlight the endemic fractiousness of humanity, especially in crisis situations...and because he succeeded many have come to believe that EVERY survivor group in every zombie apocalypse depicted must invariably bring about their own destruction by infighting, exceedingly poor judgment and very shortsighted decision-making.

Yes, there has to be an engine providing impetus to prevent the story from essentially ending due to stasis. However, it doesn't necessarily follow that humanity must invariably lose to the undead in order to prevent that stasis. The short story I pointed out in the Fiction Archive ("A Day In The Life Of..." on Page 4) isn't a static model. It has strong elements of repetition, but so do zombies bashing against impediments until they eventually collapse.

I guess one of the core things I'm trying to say is that zombies are relentless simply by nature of what they are, yet humans CAN CHOOSE to adopt their own kind of relentlessness where it pertains to survival. No, a tiny # of humans conclusively triumphant over the undead is neither realistic or feasible plot-wise, but humanity essentially playing the undead to a tension-riddled and always-going-to-be-tested "draw" CAN WORK. Think of it this way, in the current locked-in Romero model of the zombie apocalypse, humans surviving is never, and can never be anything but delaying the inevitable...and then mainly only for a short while.

Is that truly the uttermost limit of the genre? Is there absolutely nothing more to be done than re-depict the tiny handful of humanity versus the zombie horde fighting for day-to-day survival until such time as they ALWAYS slip up and perish? There's absolutely no room for evolution of the storytelling model therein?

I have an enormous amount of difficulty believing that the Romero Model, as seminal and outstanding as it was (and remains in some ways) describes in its all-encompassing totality all effective storytelling in the zombie genre. Am I the guy whose going to invent the breakout solution that proves my belief true? Probably not. Yet my deficiencies as a would-be scriptwriter do not automatically invalidate the theory that there ARE other creative avenues/outcomes to pursue beyond continuing to bludgeon audiences with the same tired message about us being our own worst enemies, and the inescapable nature of the grave as symbolized by zombie-kind.